Daily Roundup 2.2.07
Posted on Friday, February 2nd, 2007 at 10:21 am by Xteve
The dailies basically carrying over the same conversations from yesterday.
Second verse, same as the first.
Even though all the obvious things were said in training camp about focusing on play and ignoring the tumult, Hill now thinks some of his players have been affected.
“I believed early that this was such a young group focused on establishing themselves that, although they’d like to stay in Seattle, they weren’t going to lose any sleep over it during the season,” he said. “Having said that, when you monitor the team, I think maybe it has been a distraction to some, although I can’t be specific.”
Hill defends himself by pointing to the team’s multitude of injuries, from Robert Swift’s season-ending knee injury to the nine games Ray Allen missed to the two months that Rashard Lewis is going to miss following hand surgery.
“Take me out and I don’t know what a coach does about 100 player games missed in 46 games,” Hill said. “I don’t know what to do with that, except you have to keep working and figuring out rotations and do the best you can. We only have a minus-2 (scoring) differential. With a team with our record you would think it would be a lot worse. That should be considered.”
There are examples to refute Hill’s contentions about injuries. The Houston Rockets have lost Yao Ming and his 25 points and 10 rebounds for more than a month, and they have gone 13-6 in that span, including three four-game win streaks.
Bah, that’s easy. Houston has something the Sonics don’t. Quality depth. The Rockets can lose their two best players and replace them with vet guys like Bonzi Wells and Juwan Howard. The Sonics can replace their two best players with … a second year player and a rookie.
Good blog entry by FH in which he writes what most of us have been saying for a while, it does not matter who the coach is, this roster is broken.
I have talked to a few people in the organization and they feel the same way, that while it is not out of the question that Hill gets fired, it would be surprising given that the team has not quit on him. I think have written this previously, but somebody brought this up to me and I thought it was a good point: If Nate had to have everything come together with this core group for them to get to the playoffs, and Bob Weiss and Bob Hill have not been able to make it work, when does it become obvious that it is the mix of players who are not working and not the coach?
I am really wary of all this talk about Lenny being put in charge next year. Seriously. This team needs a virtual complete rebuild in culture from the top down and I just feel a younger guy from a different org with a culture of winning is the way to go. Give Lenny whatever title you want, let him put his two cents in but I cannot emphasize enough how strongly I feel that this could be a repeat of the Bob Weiss hiring. It’s the easiest move to make but it’s not the best move to make. If they go through the same non-job search this year that they did two years ago then the team deserves whatever fallout comes from that. Successful organizations do their due diligence when looking for CEOs. This org hasn’t really done anything like that since the Ackerley days and the proof is in the pudding folks. Don’t make the same mistakes again and again. Lenny is part of the solution but he is not the total solution and that’s the sense I’m getting from fans and some media members.
“Our thinking coming into this season, if we could get them playing well at the same time, we could have as good a tandem as anybody,” Hill said. “It hasn’t worked out that way for whatever reason. We got to a point where we were getting off to slow starts. I had to make a change and I did.”
The change did increase the ball movement and reduce turnovers, but Watson is no more of a scoring threat than Ridnour and is more erratic with his outside shot. While the Sonics consistently get burned by talented point guards with solid inside-outside games, Watson and Ridnour pass up open shots.
It’s all about the enforcers in today’s Times.
“That’s probably why we don’t get any calls,” Allen said earlier this season, talking about Sonics opponents being whistled for the least amount of fouls in the league. “We need to be like thuggish ruggish. That’s why we need Danny [Fortson] out on the court. It lifts perception. When you rebound the ball and have a lot of dunks, then the league says that you’re an aggressive smash-mouth team. Because we’re shooters and don’t have a big-man presence, that takes away the perceived aggressive nature.”
That’s a good quote, and in essence I agree with what Ray is saying, but before everyone goes on a thug love fest understand that the NBA has essentially legislated that player type out of the game, which P wisely brings up later in his article. The reason why there’s no Oakleys, Masons, and X-Men in the league today is because the league doesn’t want thug ball, they don’t want another Knicks-Rockets Finals series on their hands. Oh there’s still a Bruce Bowen or two in the league but Bowen is growing old and the rules these days simply do not allow you to body up on guys any more. That is the simple truth.
Enforcers were stripped of their final rights in the 1997-98 season, when a new rule prohibited players from using their forearms to impede the progress of a player facing the basket inside, and the “no-charge” halo under the hoop was added.
Kelley steps into the wayback machine for an interview with Tom Meschery
“It was very interesting to me that I was pretty violent and got into a lot of fights,” he said. “Fighting was an extremely spontaneous thing to me. I never felt that I had to be an enforcer.
“For me it was just action and reaction. I took everything personally. You step on my toe, or you step on my turf, and I kind of went off my rocker. I would become completely insane.”
Memo to Jayda and Squirrel Boy … you left John Brisker off the list of all time tough guys. Nice to see the Nutcracker on the list of new guys although I don’t consider him in a class with Bowen and Big Ben.
February 2nd, 2007 at 11:07 am
Can I be the first of hopefully MANY today that say:
NO TO LENNY!
NO TO LENNY!
NO TO LENNY!
I don’t know what I’d rather not have him do: be the coach or be an announcer. He would be/is equally horrid at both.
I can see the press conference now:
Press-Are you going to make this team play defense?
Lenny-I really will.
Press-Is this team going to improve and get back to the level of 04-05?
Lenny-It really is.
Press-Is their going to be a legitimate 3rd scoring option to Ray and Rashard?
Lenny-There really will be.
Please tell me someone else has noticed this. Ever time KC says something, Lenny says, “It really is, Kevin,” or, “They really are, Kevin.” God, it’s annoying. He just sounds so unintelligent sometimes. I love the guy as a person, but, man……..
February 2nd, 2007 at 11:08 am
Michael Cage on enforcer list, maybe???
February 2nd, 2007 at 11:16 am
I’m confused about the quality depth comment w/r/t the Sonics losing their two best players and replacing them with a second year player and a rookie. Isn’t Damien a 3rd year vet with starting experience?? We aren’t calling Swift our second best player are we??
Not only that, but the depth issue is no bodies fault but our own. Houston has been over the salary cap and has been able to bring in quality players like Wells and Howard etc. The Sonics have not been willing to do this. I assume that this is because they felt their team was “10 men deep” in the preseason and thought our players were better than the available players that could be signed with the MLE. Basically, for years we have been cheap with our MLE and this is what we have to show for it.
February 2nd, 2007 at 11:28 am
They have passed on using MLE more than I think they should have but part it is that the best full MLE guys generally go to the best teams or cities consider more desirable. Houston has both working for them right now. It is an uphill sell but not a get off free excuse. Sonics dont want to overpay for the second and third tier guys, but offer the right minutes and cash and folks will come.
February 2nd, 2007 at 11:33 am
Being selective and presenting the harsh side here but on Sonics PG position in relation to the league: 9th most FG attempts. 20th on FG%. 25th in FT attempts.
February 2nd, 2007 at 11:43 am
“I’m confused about the quality depth comment w/r/t the Sonics losing their two best players and replacing them with a second year player and a rookie.”
You’re right about Damien being a 3rd year guy, my error. The other reference is to Lewis being replaced with Gelly.
“Not only that, but the depth issue is no bodies fault but our own. Houston has been over the salary cap and has been able to bring in quality players like Wells and Howard etc. The Sonics have not been willing to do this. ”
Yeah, that’s why I think there’s merit when Hill says that injuries have been a problem. More so than it might be for other teams though injuries always suck. This team has lost its starting SG,SF and C to injuries this year and there’s no real veterans to back them up. When Damien is one of the vet off the bench, and he’s only in his 3rd year and has never been a starter at really any point in his short career, that’s completely different than a team like HOU being able to put Howard and Bonzi in there. It’s not like Howard is all-star caliber but he is an insurance policy.
The team has spent their MLE in the past…so it’s not a question of them being cheap so much as it is a question of where they’re at in terms of contention. Consider: A player signing for the MLE has a lot of choice since pretty much every team over the cap can offer it … it comes down to where he’ll get the most time or if he’s got the chance to win a ring or go deep in the playoffs. Over the past few years Seattle has had so many young guys to develop they can’t promise vet guys that they’ll get much time or compete for a ring. So they go elsewhere.
February 2nd, 2007 at 11:58 am
Hell no to Lenny as coach….the idea makes me ill.
We don’t need “thugs,” but guys who aren’t afraid to get to the basket. Chris doesn’t seem to like overpowering anyone, our guards always flip up pretty, finesse shots but never really overpower anyone in the middle, or cause someone to foul them. Our centers are more like jumpshooters than back to the basket types. This all equates to a soft, underpowering team that doesn’t get calls.
February 2nd, 2007 at 11:58 am
Both shoot a good deal, Earl mostly responsible for the bad FG%, both responsible for not getting to the line.
PG Turnovers per 48 also quite high, this year Ridnour with 15th highest turnover rate out of 68 listed pGs. Watson’s turnover rate almost a third less last year but still a bit high, gets ranked at 26th.
6th highest on getting of giving fouls. Size always seems like it is a part of it but isnt the only thing.
Ridnour a little higher rate but only about a 10% difference.
February 2nd, 2007 at 12:03 pm
Very true, it is hard to really compete for a title when we are trying to develop young players at three starting positions (PG, PF and C) AND have a bench that is primarily made up if young inexperienced players that we are trying to develop at the same time.
I mean, earlier in the season wasn’t Watson our most experienced veteran on the bench? You could say Danny Fortson, but how much has he actually been available to play??
I think the inexperience throughout the roster has really shown through this season. All those close games that they just didn’t seem to know how to close out. All those fourh quarter meltdowns……..that’s what you get when you have a very young and inexperienced roster.
I personally think the Sonics best bet for next season would be to add a veteran big man who can defend and rebound in the post (preferably a center) and they need to decide what they are going to do with the PG position. Either go with one of our current young guys and then bring in a veteran PG as the backup who knows his role and compliments the younger starters abilities. If they decide that neither Earl or Luke are going to be the answer, then go get Delonte West from Boston……Danny Aigne is in meltdown mode and we may be able to get a reasonable deal from him.
February 2nd, 2007 at 12:06 pm
Who gets to the line alot and is talked about in trades? S Francis #2 in league in FT/FG rate, Kirilenko 8th, Warrick? 15th, Grant Hill 18th, B Knight 27th, Gasol 30th, Salmons 53, Childress 54, Mason 73.
Among big minute Sonics Lewis is 61st, wilcox 62, Allen 88, wilkins 91.
February 2nd, 2007 at 12:21 pm
No main Sonics in top 50 in FT/FG rate.
Other top contenders in west? Dallas a total of 4, Lakers 3, Utah 2, Spurs 2, Clips 2, Rockets, Suns Denver surprisingly just 1 right now (but Carmelo 57th so that is almost 2).
February 2nd, 2007 at 12:29 pm
Lonnie Shelton before Danny “invisible man” Fortson, for that matter, Michael ( Jerry Curl and all) Cage, before Fortson, but after Shelton.
Danny has played just over a hundered games for the Sonics. He has no business being on that list.
The only thing he’s enforcing is his reputation as an unreliable nut.
February 2nd, 2007 at 12:35 pm
KT,
In looking at Delonte West’s game log, he looks like a PG that gets to the rack pretty well. A number of games lately where he is shooting alot of FT’s. 7, 7, 8 and 9 attempts in games this month.
Where does he rank in FT/FG rate amoung PG’s?
February 2nd, 2007 at 12:42 pm
Keep in mind Re:Delonte that the Celtics have been hammered by injuries making him almost by default a guy they depend on to try to create offense.
He’s really more of a 4th or 5th option and doesn’t get nearly the FT’s in that instance.
February 2nd, 2007 at 12:46 pm
- The Sonics have spent SOME of their MLE the last few years. Not once have they tried to find a veteran player and give them the full MLE. They haven’t even been “rumored” to be doing that so I am pretty sure it is a product of choice not a product of players choosing to go elsewhere.
FOR ONCE I FINALLY AGREE WITH CHRIS SHERIDAN:
Oliver ( NY): Isn’t it great to be able to make 9 FG and get 41 PTS? I LOVE THIS GAME!!! I wish Kobe would get even half the calls Wade gets. MJ’s greatness was aided by “superstar” calls or no calls, sorry, but Kobe gets half the treatment of a wade or Lebron, why ?
Chris Sheridan: You’re preaching to the choir here, Oliver. every single night D-Wade gets three gift whistles (which even LeBron and Kobe don’t get) at a minimum, and one or two late whistles, too. He’s treated as preferrentially as Jordan was at the peak of his game, and it is infuriating to watch (unless you;re a Heat fan). And I say all that being one of the biggest D-Wade guys around, a Marquette grad even. But it’s just plain unfair to see one guy get such special treatment. It takes away from the game.
February 2nd, 2007 at 12:49 pm
On a side note…I coach a 6th Grade Boys basketball team and out of the 9 kids at least 6 of them said that Dwyane Wade was their favorite player
This guy is quietly reaching MJ type levels even though people seem to think that LeBron is the most popular guy…
February 2nd, 2007 at 12:53 pm
Also…while you can argue that Houston does indeed have more depth than the Sonics. They have had to deal with injuries to two better players (maybe TMac = Ray) including the best C in the league and they are 29-16.
I don’t think the Sonic fans expect them to be 29-16 with the injuries…but they should be much better than 17-29
February 2nd, 2007 at 1:02 pm
“Keep in mind Re:Delonte that the Celtics have been hammered by injuries making him almost by default a guy they depend on to try to create offense.
He’s really more of a 4th or 5th option and doesn’t get nearly the FT’s in that instance. ”
I agree……and am aware of that, however what I like is that he is showing that ability to go to the rack and draw fouls when needed. He’s a great FT shooter and he has more of that combo guard mentality and size having been a scorer at St. Jo’s. His game would appear to be a better compliment to Ray and Rashard’s than Luke or Earl’s is proving to be.
February 2nd, 2007 at 1:24 pm
“Not once have they tried to find a veteran player and give them the full MLE. They haven’t even been “rumored” to be doing that so I am pretty sure it is a product of choice not a product of players choosing to go elsewhere.”
On balance it doesn’t make sense that they wouldn’t try. I don’t believe for a second the team didn’t try to use its MLE when they had it to spend. But talking to players and closing the deal are two separate things.
You didn’t seem to catch how MLE works from the players perspective. You’re a free agent looking at signing on somehwre for the midlevel. If the money is equal no matter where you go and your choice is to sit on the bench in Seattle behind their starter and their draft pick and win 30 games or sit on the bench in Houston behind their starter and win 50 games & go to the playoffs, which do you choose?
Exactly.
February 2nd, 2007 at 1:33 pm
“Also…while you can argue that Houston does indeed have more depth than the Sonics. They have had to deal with injuries to two better players (maybe TMac = Ray) including the best C in the league and they are 29-16. ”
Exactly … that shows Houston has better depth. Yao & T-Mac are to the Rockets what Ray & Shard are to the Sonics, their top two offensive options, how they compare in terms of game is not relevant. Removing Yao and Tmac from the lineup hasn’t hurt that team as much as removing Ray & Shard has hurt this one.
February 2nd, 2007 at 1:43 pm
I think that the Sonics are suffering through an identity crisis, much as they have since the late 90’s. They keep trying this “rebuild while contending” philosophy and it doesn’t seem to get them anywhere.
They have an extreme amount of inexperience and youth, but they pair it with two veterans in Ray and Rashard. I think, as Steve alluded to, it’s kind of a catch-22 when trying to attract veterans here. They want to keep the team relatively young and still be competitive, but to be truly competitive they need more of a veteran influence on the team (particularly coming off the bench). And, as Steve mentioned, the MLE is the MLE no matter where a player goes. So, they tend to go to the place where they have the best chance to have both personal and team success. Typically, that place is not here unfortunately.
So, there seems to be two choices on how to get out of this situation. Either stock up on veteran talent in the offseason via free agency or trade (and likely overpay for that talent so that they’ll actually sign here). Or, we blow things up and go completely youthful and start from scratch. It seems to me that either this in-between philosophy that the Sonics possess doesn’t work, or it could work but the front office is not effective in implementing it. In either case, the path that they’re on now will seemingly only lead to mediocrity, at best.
February 2nd, 2007 at 2:13 pm
Frozenropers D West is 89th. A big improvement from last year.
Anyone interested in other names can look at the FT/FG ranking (or some other stats) here:
http://www.knickerblogger.net/stats/2007/jh_ALL_FTFG.htm
Ridnour was 77th last season and similar early this season with the microfiber ball, confidence, finger roll but has slipped back to 117 (all these rankings are for about top 200 guys on minutes but there are some omissions).
Watson at 159.
February 2nd, 2007 at 2:36 pm
I would have thought West was a little higher.
Going inside and taking shots and getting fouled arent the same thing. % inside shots Watson 25%, Ridnour 21%, West 25% all loosely average but West gets contact/fouls 20% higher than Ridnour and 60% more than Watson.
West actaully going inside less this year than last but getting more foul calls. Could be getting ref respect or learning the tricks. He isnt finsihing quite as many. I guess guys are hacking him more to try to stop the shot from going in. The hacking may have become something of a deterent in a meaningless season and health to protect for a future contract.
I’ve thought he was a pretty good ainge pick.
Better defending Sg (very good) than PG (average) this season. Virtually all PG last season. Pretty clutch. team +/- slipped this year- is behind rondo and Telfair. last year he was Celtics best player according to adjusted +/- study. i am pretty sure Ainge keeps him but he is someone worth tracking. restricted free agent summer 2008.
February 2nd, 2007 at 2:45 pm
A/TO similar to Ridnour’s this season.
Wingspan pretty good, almost 6-3 in shoes.
February 2nd, 2007 at 3:01 pm
Thanks TK for the info.
I’m invisioning West’s game being more like AD’s, and thus a better match/compliment to Luke’s that Watson is right now. I think he’d be a solid addition if we could get him from Ainge. He could fill the role AD had here during the 2004-2005 season. He still has some solid upside too.
February 2nd, 2007 at 3:11 pm
Well said Alex.
with options 1 Get several vets to help or 2 commit even more to youth or 3 continue the same (with quasi veterans Ridnour Watson Wilcox Collison)…
I guess between options 1 and 3 there would be option 4… make one and only one significant change at PG or C.It sounds too close to 3 unless the guy they get is a really strong proven vet. Would have to be a Daniels or 04-05 Fortson type impact or more.
February 2nd, 2007 at 3:12 pm
“So, there seems to be two choices on how to get out of this situation. Either stock up on veteran talent in the offseason via free agency or trade (and likely overpay for that talent so that they’ll actually sign here). Or, we blow things up and go completely youthful and start from scratch.”
I think trade seems the more realistic option considering how many players they have under contract for next year and the number of picks. They won’t really have the roster spots or an attractive role to offer free agents unless Rashard leaves.
Ideally at least 2 consolidation moves where they trade 4 for 2 or 3 for 1, free up some roster spots, waive Fortson if he can’t be traded by the deadline, decide if Rashard is coming back, if not he’s trade bait.
Of course none of this can happen until the status of the GM is decided, T minus 20 days and counting.
February 2nd, 2007 at 3:24 pm
Yes I agree frozenropers there is a fair amount of similarity between Daniels and West and that appeals in general to me and could fit the current situation well.Daniels had a very high inside FG success rate and West’s was quite strong last year and is still significantly above ridnour?Watson this year though down some.
He may be headed to a payday equal to ridnour’s but it could increase depending how he does next season. With three PGs Ainge might move the oldest to avoid the salary bump. He has options based on performance and cost similar to Sonics situation with 3 young Centers.
February 2nd, 2007 at 3:33 pm
Wow so many points to refute my head is spinning:
“On balance it doesn’t make sense that they wouldn’t try. I don’t believe for a second the team didn’t try to use its MLE when they had it to spend. But talking to players and closing the deal are two separate things.”
Name one player that you have heard about the Sonics being interested in for the entire MLE in the last few years. The only one I can remotely think of is Earl and they weren’t willing to give him the whole. In general the Sonics have looked to divide the MLE amongst multiple players (how they signed AD)
“You didn’t seem to catch how MLE works from the players perspective. You’re a free agent looking at signing on somehwre for the midlevel. If the money is equal no matter where you go and your choice is to sit on the bench in Seattle behind their starter and their draft pick and win 30 games or sit on the bench in Houston behind their starter and win 50 games & go to the playoffs, which do you choose?
I understand perfectly how the MLE works. So based on your scenario you are saying that the Sonics decided to go with the younger player and sacrafice depth. This point seems to counter your point above and also explain why the Sonics have no business complaining about not having depth. They looked at their roster and apparently felt that the rookies are better.
Also, before you bust out a “well they want the rookie to play so he can develop” argument…remember…this is the same argument that every person who was in favor of the Sene pick seemed to feel was incorrect. Somehow we would develop three young players in practice and actual game time was not nearly as important.
“Exactly … that shows Houston has better depth. Yao & T-Mac are to the Rockets what Ray & Shard are to the Sonics, their top two offensive options, how they compare in terms of game is not relevant. Removing Yao and Tmac from the lineup hasn’t hurt that team as much as removing Ray & Shard has hurt this one.”
Again you are saying we lack depth, but the FO obviously seemed to feel that our players are better. Therefore, instead of signing a Stro Smith (who they traded for Battier…) or a Bonzi Wells we thought our young guys would provide the same amount of performance. To me that is really silly by our FO, but then of course they also said we had 10 starting calibre players on our team on draft day.
“Ideally at least 2 consolidation moves where they trade 4 for 2 or 3 for 1, free up some roster spots, waive Fortson if he can’t be traded by the deadline, decide if Rashard is coming back, if not he’s trade bait.”
I’m not sure how we are going to be able to pull of any “consolidation” trades in the next two weeks that will effect the team’s depth. In fact any trade we make will most likely make our depth an even bigger issue as we trade multiple players for one player.
In summation….over the last 4 years the Sonics made one of two decisions:
1) Their young players were good enough to be counted on as NBA level back ups and so there was no reason to use their MLE
2) They were too cheap to bring in the talent necessary and hid behind their young players. This is of course is pretty dumb because as someone pointed out Ray Ray isn’t getting younger so we are not built to be a young team developing talent.
February 2nd, 2007 at 3:35 pm
TK:
“He may be headed to a payday equal to ridnour’s but it could increase depending how he does next season. With three PGs Ainge might move the oldest to avoid the salary bump. He has options based on performance and cost similar to Sonics situation with 3 young Centers”
The only problem is that at least he is getting production out of his cheap PGs…the Sonics are getting next to nothing out of theirs and so making the decision on who to keep will be much more difficult.
February 2nd, 2007 at 3:38 pm
“I think trade seems the more realistic option considering how many players they have under contract for next year and the number of picks. ”
Agreed. Definately going to take some trades to make it work if they decide to stick with the main core. We really don’t need three draft picks this year so if we could package our second with Wilkins and Fortson’s expiring we might be able to get something useful back. One of the playoff teams looking for backup or starting PG should be interested in Watson.
Watson to Cleveland for ?
Watson to Miami for Posey? (expiring)
Watson to Detroit for Mohammed?
I almost think the most appealing would be to Miami for Posey’s expiring deal in order to give us some more salary flexibility.
In the end if they decide we are going to go for it with the current core then we need to swap some youth and picks for a veteran Center (Magloire?) and a veteran guard (?), IMO.
February 2nd, 2007 at 3:55 pm
You are right myk that Ainge has all three guys on the court and combined their pts and assists add up. Their shooting and efficiency are pretty low but at least he is seeing them, learning about them. Sonics lose most of the value on the court and from evaluation expected for this year. Next season will essentiallly be a rerun of what this season was supposed to be unless management and coaches piece together little things and make guesses or a big leap.
frozenropers two weeks of good shooting could greatly enhance Watson trade value. time is running out waiting for it. Last 2 games were ok, need 6-8 more.
February 2nd, 2007 at 4:00 pm
I do think that bench depth is huge in the NBA. But I think the main stars/ownership has a lot to due with your teams ability to get quality depth to a certain extent. It also doesn’t hurt to be a contender. The rich often get richer. Houston/Miami/Dallas are great examples.
Like most teams they have stars in Yao/T-Mac, Shaq/Wade, and Dirk. If you have talent like that then decent quality veteran players like Bonzi, Juwon Howard, Stackhouse, Alonzo Mourning, Eddie Jones etc. It must be nice having guys like that off the bench.
But you need to be willing to spend money too. Utah pays Derek Fisher $5.8 million (he comes off the bench right?). BTW he has a gross contract. Sure thats a lot, but you have to be willing to pay to get quality off the bench IMO. Wouldn’t it be nice to have a veteran like that off the bench (ideally for less money)?
February 2nd, 2007 at 4:02 pm
One thing I find pretty interesting is that everyone thinks that PG is one of our biggest problems and yet we all want to get rid of Watson…not saying getting rid of Watson is bad…just nothing the constant opinion to trade him
February 2nd, 2007 at 4:11 pm
I guess if you are going to argue that people don’t want to come to Seattle for the MLE because they can win somewhere else then that should be sign #1 that you need to blow up the team…
February 2nd, 2007 at 4:14 pm
What I think is funny is that a year ago to this day we all pretty much agreed that we needed a back up PG. Some of this was because we had Flip Murray at the time and that speaks for itself.
Here we are one year later, after acquiring another PG, and we now are saying we need to trade one of them. Thats what happens when you have two overpaid PGs that are mediocre players. We have nobody to blame but ourselves.
February 2nd, 2007 at 4:17 pm
Its too bad the NBA isn’t like the retail world where you can sometimes find 2 for 1 deals exchanging quantity for quality. Wouldn’t it be great if we could trade Watson/Ridnour for a Jason Kidd? That or a Petro/Sene for Brad Miller.
* these are not suggested trades only dreams.
February 2nd, 2007 at 4:18 pm
“Name one player that you have heard about the Sonics being interested in for the entire MLE in the last few years.”
Juwan Howard, 2003.
“The only one I can remotely think of is Earl and they weren’t willing to give him the whole. In general the Sonics have looked to divide the MLE amongst multiple players (how they signed AD)”
The Supes are far from being the only team that does that. Until they let teams split the midlevel 2 years ago it wasn’t working the way it was originally intended. The midlevel crept up to almost $6.5 mil and only 4 or 5 teams a year would use it. In any given year there might only be 4-5 teams interested in spending $6.5 mil on 4-5 players. But there could be as many as 9-10 teams interested in spending $3.7 and another 9-10 on the $1.7 which is more money for the players, less cap clogging deals on the books and in turn better for the league.
I am not arguing one way over another or saying what the Supes did was right. Obviously they thought that their young players would take a step further. I’m saying that right now Seattle is not an attractive destination for MLE players for a variety of reasons, percieved cheapness having nothing to do with it. If you’re going to pay a guy $6.5 mil a year when he can get that exact same money from 10 other teams then you have to sweeten the deal with something other teams can’t offer; more minutes, a starting role, a chance at playoff success. Seattle can’t offer those things, so players go elsewhere.
February 2nd, 2007 at 4:31 pm
I really think we have to make a big trade. Being mediocre is the worst thing to be in the NBA and this is what we are.
I guess it would be very difficult to trade Lewis as he can opt out this summer so it’s time to move Ray ?
IMO the only destination that really makes sense is to the Bulls for Gordon and Tyrus Thomas (add PJ Brown to make it work salary wise).
Gordon is a good young player, even if he is not as good as Ray (at least for now) he proved that he can score in this league. His size could be a problem though with our small PGs.
A Gordon/Gelabale backcourt could work ?
Or maybe we could get an upgrade at the PG position or at least a physically stronger point guard (West is interesting, maybe Jack too) with somekind of package using Fortson, Petro, Swift, Sene, Ridnour or Watson ?
February 2nd, 2007 at 4:38 pm
If you’re going to pay a guy $6.5 mil a year when he can get that exact same money from 10 other teams then you have to sweeten the deal with something other teams can’t offer; more minutes, a starting role, a chance at playoff success. Seattle can’t offer those things, so players go elsewhere.
If our depth and overall talent is what we are talking about I am not sure why you are saying that the Sonics CAN’T provide one of:
- More minutes
- A starting role
As for playoff success…why couldn’t we offer that last year when we were coming of a second round performance??
February 2nd, 2007 at 4:40 pm
“IMO the only destination that really makes sense is to the Bulls for Gordon and Tyrus Thomas (add PJ Brown to make it work salary wise).”
Yeah, that’s probably the best package out there if the Supes want to move Ray this year. Ray would be crazy awesome on that Bulls team.
February 2nd, 2007 at 4:42 pm
Problem with the Bulls trade is that it seems as long as KG “could” be available the Bulls will hold out in hopes of getting him.
February 2nd, 2007 at 4:47 pm
“If our depth and overall talent is what we are talking about I am not sure why you are saying that the Sonics CAN’T provide one of:
- More minutes
- A starting role”
Before this season began at what position did Seattle have to add a free agent Myk? They thought they had PG sewn up between Luke/Earl. Nope, not gonna add a PG. Ray plays 35+ mpg at SG and so does Shard at SF, so you can’t offer minutes or a starting role there either. PF? The rotation’s set between Nick and CW who had just signed a 3 year contract. Center is the only position where the team could concievably add a free agent and they thought they had that covered with Swift/Petro.
Unless the plan was to let CW walk and sign somebody to fill that role the team actually didn’t have minutes or a starting role to offer any prospective MLE player.
“As for playoff success…why couldn’t we offer that last year when we were coming of a second round performance?? ”
Well that was two years ago actually…Going off my shaky memoey you can only use the MLE once every two years and the Sonics used it to match Damien’s offer sheet.
February 2nd, 2007 at 4:49 pm
scratch that, I’m wrong. You can use the MLE every year, I was thinking of the small exception.
February 2nd, 2007 at 5:00 pm
I’d support a deal wherein Rick Sund traded Ray Allen to the Chicago Bulls for P.J. Brown, Ben Gordon, and either Tyrus Thomas or Thabo Sefolosha. I’d rather the Seattle Supersonics acquire Sefolosha than Thomas, though, since the team lacks depth at shooting guard.
February 2nd, 2007 at 5:00 pm
- The Rockets signed Bonzi Wells to a MLE when they had TMac and Battier to take up minutes. Last year they signed Stro Smith even though they had Yao and Howard to take up the minutes. Basically, your point is going out to prove that the Sonics FO drastically overestimated the talent on the team.
That is a big problem…
If you want to have depth you have to pay to get it. The Sonics thought they could get lucky carrying young players and marginal players and it bit them in the…
February 2nd, 2007 at 5:04 pm
Whenever somebody mentions the low-level exception, I have nightmarish flashbacks of Ibrahim Kutluay. As far as I’m concerned, it was a duncical decision by Rick Sund to sign Kutluay. My feelings about that free-agent signing are totally irrelevant, however.
February 2nd, 2007 at 5:16 pm
Lonnie Shelton is not number one on that list? Then it’s a bad list.
Lenny Wilkins? LOL. He did so well in Toronto with a team like this, yeah, let’s bring him in.
February 2nd, 2007 at 5:35 pm
“I’d support a deal wherein Rick Sund traded Ray Allen to the Chicago Bulls for P.J. Brown, Ben Gordon, and either Tyrus Thomas or Thabo Sefolosha. I’d rather the Seattle Supersonics acquire Sefolosha than Thomas, though, since the team lacks depth at shooting guard. ”
That’s crazy. No way would I NOT accept Thomas coming back in that deal if Ray Allen is the player I’m giving up. You’re already getting Gordon back with the express intent to tank it this season, (why trade Ray otherwise) so depth isn’t a concern short term. Sign a 2 guard from the D league or make the Payton/Posey trade and sell tickets for the GP farewell tour. Next season the team could draft, sign or trade for a 2 guard … you don’t get multiple chances to acquire a Tyrus Thomas.
February 2nd, 2007 at 5:38 pm
AK - I know the team would still have Rashard under that scenario, but when you’re making a trade of that proportions I think you have to grab as much you can at the time and sort the depth chart out later.
February 2nd, 2007 at 5:48 pm
news report: Paul Allen has an agreement to reacquire the Rose Garden.
February 2nd, 2007 at 5:49 pm
Q: How do you know when you have a crappy team?
A: Read today’s roundup… I don’t think i’ve ever read so many articles with so many excuses.
February 2nd, 2007 at 5:56 pm
Okay, Steve, I agree that acquiring Tyrus Thomas instead of Thabo Sefolosha makes more sense — based on talent and potential rather than depth and practicality, of course — for the Seattle Supersonics. Either way, though, Rick Sund should immediately offer Earl Watson and Damien Wilkins to the Miami Heat for James Posey and Gary Payton. Undeniably, a deal such as that would be a win-win situation for both teams.
February 2nd, 2007 at 6:04 pm
I think trading Ray is needed at this point - I also think his value may be at its peak for the forseeable future. He is kicking-a$$ this month.
Utah, Chicago, and if we can get a third team involved, Atlanta, are decent trading partners (Atlanta to get Childress). I like Kirilenko for Utah and Deng, Gordon, Duhon from Chicago. It seems to me that Deng and Nocioni are redundant for Chicago - and that they need a better PF - would they take Wilcox and Ray for Deng, Gordon, Duhon and someone else (Sweetney?). This is off the top of my head - doubt the matchups work money wise.
Of course, none of this will ever happen. Sund is more in fear of losing his job that Hill. Hence, he will take no chances at all.
Baring a trade, i would love to hear Hill say “I am not worried about wins this year, i am primarily interested in getting our young players such as Sene and Gelable as much time as possible on the floor.” That also will never happen. Oh well.
February 2nd, 2007 at 6:11 pm
Steve, wasn’t Wally’s strategy earlier to use the MLE differently than other teams to supposedly get better quality players? I’m thinking of MacIlvaine and Booth who were both MLE and were signed for seven years when that was allowed. Most teams were offering fewer years. Maybe that soured them on the MLE. It seemed like we were very aggressive in the MLE market before that.
February 2nd, 2007 at 6:12 pm
“If you want to have depth you have to pay to get it. The Sonics thought they could get lucky carrying young players and marginal players and it bit them in the…”
Which is part of the reason we are where we are. It also goes along with past ownerships “lets take the cheap route” stance.
Actually come to think of it……look at the lone successful team in the area….the Seahawks. They have an owner who isn’t afraid to spend money. If there is a need…….he makes moves to fill that void ie Julian Peterson. As a result…..they win.
Unless we seriously drug up the Bull GM he isn’t giving that much back for Ray Allen. Sure it works salary wise, and its a great deal from the Seattle perspective……..but it would be hard to justify due to Ray’s age from the Chicago point of view. Unless they think Ray Allen makes them an immediate contender (which it might), I find it highly unlikely they include Tyrus Thomas at all. Two youngs for one old doesn’t happen very often. I think its a hard sell to a decent GM like Paxson.
Then we have the Sonics (past ownership) and Mariners (current) who have/had a different approach. More the bare minimum/cheaper route.
I think the results speak for themselves.
February 2nd, 2007 at 6:25 pm
“Either way, though, Rick Sund should immediately offer Earl Watson and Damien Wilkins to the Miami Heat for James Posey and Gary Payton. Undeniably, a deal such as that would be a win-win situation for both teams.”
I actually like that idea AK.
February 2nd, 2007 at 6:37 pm
Good idea AK.
Sending Wilkins and Watson to Miami for Posey and GP would be great, because we would get rid of two longer contracts and bringing in Gary would probably increase interest in the team.
I also really like the idea of trying to get Delonte West from the Celtics, as mentioned before. I really like his game and I think he would be ideal coming off the bench as the 3rd guard in a 3 guard rotation, just like AD used to. Maybe we could get him straight up for Petro?
BTW: I think that everybody agrees that there need to be changes made with this current roster, as it’s flawed and won’t get us anywhere. So let’s hope that FO finally decides which way to go(win now or rebuild) and does make the right decisions.
February 2nd, 2007 at 6:44 pm
Dick Tate Says:
February 2nd, 2007 at 5:49 pm
“Q: How do you know when you have a crappy team?
A: Read today’s roundup… I don’t think i’ve ever read so many articles with so many excuses. ”
Yes, and no. They all are talking around the same things. I’ll keep beating this drum, you can’t tell if the coaches have been bad, but you can see when the players are bad. Rick Sund and the guys that pick the 7 foot tall ponies have provided a bunch of players but not really a team.
BOTH pg’s sulk when they don’t start, and have opposite holes in their games, and I’m beginning to warm up to Wilks as the backup.
They don’t have a center, the have Nick, Petro, BOTH are PFs, I’ll take Nick because he plays well with others.
Wilcox is a talented guy that plays off others, the problem (among many) is that the ball goes into the post once every decade. Anybody (other than me) wonder why Nick posted and scored on (instert team name here) and then he doesn’t post up the rest of the night? Is that Hill? Is that having a PG (Watson) that can’t lob an entry pass without the post guy jumping out to get it?
We have Rashard, maybe, and Gelly. Wilkins didn’t want to be here and now there’s no reason to keep him.
Ray’s great, too bad we only have 1 or two guys that can set a pick, and there isn’t another option on the floor on the weak side that can shoot (now I miss Rashard).
Upgrade the PG spot, upgrade the center spot, and I think you can live with both Rashard and Ray, Nick and Gelly, and Swifty next year. That’s 7, guys unnamed, move ‘em. If the GM isn’t the guy you want dealing, then fire him.
February 2nd, 2007 at 6:45 pm
“The only one I can remotely think of is Earl and they weren’t willing to give him the whole.”
Actually they were willing to give Earl the whole MLE. However, they wanted to keep Damien Wilkins and had to use part of that exception to match the offer sheet Minnesota signed him too.
Interestingly enough part of the signing of Potapenko to his two year deal was that his salary would match up nicely in conjunction with Murray, Radmanovich or Evans in a deal for a guy on a MLE deal.
“The Rockets signed Bonzi Wells to a MLE when they had TMac and Battier to take up minutes. Last year they signed Stro Smith even though they had Yao and Howard to take up the minutes.”
And they got rid of Stro one year later in a magical deal for Battier. They’d dump Wells right now if anyone would give them a bag of chips for him.
February 2nd, 2007 at 6:50 pm
Posey and Wilkins have same agent. Probably not important but sometimes it can help. I would think Posey on one level would prefer to stay in Miami and have a playoff shot but where would he have better sign & trade options? He might get paid more (and so would the agent Mark Bartelstein) if he is on the roster of a team willing to consider that. Hard to say which is more likely to do one; both needs multiple changes. Posey as insurance for bargaining with Lewis (Wilcox and Watson could be considered that last summer), possible third teams (flip Posey to somebody for lesser desired ending contract, or decent young guy and or some draft pick enhancement? So many angles that could be worked.
February 2nd, 2007 at 6:53 pm
“They’d dump Wells right now if anyone would give them a bag of chips for him.”
I’d give you a bag of Fritos for Wells. I draw the line at Cool Ranch Doritos, however.
February 2nd, 2007 at 7:13 pm
Bartelstein represented Potapenko and more recently Mikki Moore and Andre Brown so it seems he and Sonics management can work together for mutual benefit.
February 2nd, 2007 at 7:16 pm
Anyone else see that report that the Nets offered Vince Carter for Ray Allen? Uh, sure, we will get right to that.
February 2nd, 2007 at 7:17 pm
He also represents Eric Williams. Posey to San Antonio for Williams and Udrih for some draft compensation? One possible example.
PJ Brown is another client. perhaps they could link up a megadeal.
February 2nd, 2007 at 7:20 pm
He has a number of other interesting clients.
http://hoopshype.com/agents/mark_bartelstein.htm
February 2nd, 2007 at 7:21 pm
” “They’d dump Wells right now if anyone would give them a bag of chips for him.”
I’d give you a bag of Fritos for Wells. I draw the line at Cool Ranch Doritos, however.”
How about we try to get him with a bag of Lays Dill Pickle chips, that would be a steal!
February 2nd, 2007 at 7:24 pm
Bartelstein #2 agent. Watson represented by #1 Tellem.
February 2nd, 2007 at 7:29 pm
Newsflash, The Bulls are in excellent position in the East. They are contenders already. There’s no reason for them to move Gordon at all when he’s the go-to player.
February 2nd, 2007 at 8:01 pm
How about that 3 team trade?
Sea trade: Ray Allen, Earl Watson, Damien Wilkins
Sea receive: Gary Payton, Zeljko Rebraca, James Posey, Corey Maggette, 2007 1st round pick(via L.A. Clippers), 2007 1st round pick(via Minnesota)
Clippers trade: Zeljko Rebraca, Corey Maggette, Sam Cassell, 2007 1st round pick(via L.A. Clippers), 2007 1st round pick(via Minnesota)
Clippers receive: Ray Allen, Earl Watson, Wayne Simien
Heat trade: Wayne Simien, Gary Payton, James Posey
Heat receive: Sam Cassell, Damien Wilkins
February 2nd, 2007 at 9:28 pm
Nice page…I don’t think it’s that complicated, we are severely under-sized (in the backcourt) with a dire need for a penetration/defense minded guards. Lenny should be Sund’s consultant or replacement; either keep Hill or hire an OUTSIDE, young, defense first coach. If Ray and Rashard can’t win together, split them up.
February 2nd, 2007 at 10:15 pm
Hmmm guess i would take Stro considering him and the #9 pick got them Battier…one of the nice thing about the MLE contract is it is very easy to trade since by definition it is league average.
I mean whatever, if you want to defend the Sonics and them not using the MLE then you have to support the team as is with gaping holes throughout the lineup…can’t have it both ways.
February 2nd, 2007 at 11:49 pm
I’d guess the Clips wouldnt go that far Silivio. It might be hard to gear up for the playoffs changing their chemistry so radically. Seems like they might wait til summer. But you got the Sonics its long lost draft pick Rebraca! 10 years later.
On second thought regarding Watson, it may be more realistic for a team that wants him to pass and play D and shoot no more than 5 times a game to take him (like the 3 you mentioned frozenropers) than to think his shooting swings inline and a team takes him for that.