Daily Roundup 3.1.07
Posted on Thursday, March 1st, 2007 at 10:08 am by Xteve
I can’t get Echoes Part I from Live At Pompeii out of my head this morning.
Sometimes everything really is green and submarine.
Another pissaway down the stretch. I’m so used to it now, but it’s still a shame and shows the difference between having that vet guard in Cassell. He used Luke Ridnour like a hotel condom last night. The team as a whole also suffered from extremely crappy passing throughout the game but most notably on Earl Watson’s fumble late in the 4th.
“The play was open if the pass was there,” Watson said. “My angle was bad and the pass was obviously too high. The ball slipped out of my hands.”
Larry Borstein’s take, since the Times still isn’t sending a beat writer to road games.
“Obviously, we improved in the turnover area, but I don’t know what Watson was doing on that pass,” Hill said.
BTW Hill’s talking about improving in the second half over the first, in which the team committed a ridiculous 10 turnovers despite shooting 50%. Rematch tonight at the Key.
Believe me, this is only the first salvo.
“I don’t think [New Orleans is] the right city to have this type of event right now. I know the city is in need of trying to get back on their feet, in need of money. Safety comes first. I’m sure they have to do a lot of research and look into before they really make this decision.”
The security issue became a larger concern after there were hundreds of arrests in Las Vegas during All-Star weekend.
“If I don’t feel that I’m going to be safe, if I am on that team, I will look into probably not even going,” McGrady said.
Some good stuff in Frank’s blog today. Milwaukee and Memphis might be under the cap enough to sign Rashard (can’t see either team being interested in him)
And just to end things on a feel good note let’s all see what Frank Chopp is all about.
What’s troubling, though, is how tawdry the debate grew thanks to words that came out of the mouths of two elected officials during the racers’ visits to their state.
First, House Speaker Frank Chopp referred to Petty, the seven-time Cup series champion, as “that guy who got picked up for a DUI.”
Uh, no. Not only has Petty never been picked up for driving under the influence, he has never allowed his race teams to be sponsored by any form of alcoholic beverage because he promised his mother he never would.
Chopp said he “wasn’t sure” Petty was the guy he was thinking of, so I guess he thought that made it OK. Later, he apologized and called the remark “inappropriate and wrong.”
Well, at least he got that part right.
Then there’s House member Larry Seaquist (who, for the record, is a Democrat as is Chopp).
Mr. Seaquist offered the following opinion when the idea of having NASCAR fans in the state came up: “These people are not the kind of people you would want living next door to you. They’d be the ones with the junky cars in the front yard and would try to slip around the law.”
Hmmm. That sounds like a stereotype, doesn’t it? That’d be sort of like stating that anyone who lives in Seattle has webbed feet (because it rains so much there, you know) and puts double-caff, half-fat lattes in their babies’ bottles (since the only thing they drink there is coffee).
That would be silly of course. But there’s one judgment here that I can make based solely on what was said this week on this topic, and that’s that Richard Petty has forgotten more about class and respect than at least two pinheads in the Washington state legislature.
March 1st, 2007 at 10:50 am
“Cassell used Ridnour like a hotel condom last night.”
It’s a shame that we can’t read blogs from people who have actually played real basketball. I went back and found 1 or maybe two instances–where Cassell had his way with Ridnour. Other than that–Luke did a real good job on Sam defensively. Sam shot 43% from the floor, and never really hurt Luke on the block–which is where he is most dangerous and can cause huge problems for not just the guy guarding him, but everyone else on the floor as well. People need to lay off the Ridnour can’t defend angle–it’s tired, unoriginal, and most of all not true—and believe me when I tell you that people in true basketball circles do not agree with you.
March 1st, 2007 at 11:19 am
“I went back and found 1 or maybe two instances–where Cassell had his way with Ridnour. Other than that–Luke did a real good job on Sam defensively. ”
How much did we lose by again? If Luke gets two stops do the Sonics win last night’s game? Not laying the blame for the loss at Luke’s feet alone, but come on. I am actually one of Luke’s bigger fans on this site but even people in true basketball circles aren’t going to say that getting burned on 2-3 possessions a game every night is meaningless, especially when that’s the margin this team keeps losing games by.
March 1st, 2007 at 11:39 am
Now I know you’re not serious. Luke gets beat twice by a guy who has made a living destroying young point guards in this league and you think that’s a bad night. Let me explain one or two quick things to you about how the NBA works. These are the best athletes in the world with the most extraordinary offesnive skills seen anywhere on the planet. The offensive player is always at an advantage. If a guy gets beat once–maybe twice a game–he has done a great job–especially on someone as lethal as Cassell.
March 1st, 2007 at 11:45 am
Sorry, I watched a good part of that game last night and Luke got abused by Cassell more than twice going to the hole. That said, Cassell blew by Watson a few times too. Oh, how it would be nice to have a vet PG like Cassell in the rotation next season.
Another problem that is very apparent is that when our PG gets left in the dust our bigs are not good at helping out. By the time most of them react, the opposing PG is already laying the ball in the hoop for a layup.
“and believe me when I tell you that people in true basketball circles do not agree with you. ”
That’s just priceless. I’d have to disagree and say that people in “true basketball circles” do realize that Luke is getting burned on perimeter quite a bit. They, like most of us, may still like Luke for the other valuable parts of his game, but thinking that “true basketball circles” see something too much different is hilarious.
March 1st, 2007 at 11:47 am
- Can I be in that circle? Ive got this ocean front property in AZ I want to sell them…
March 1st, 2007 at 11:48 am
Honestly, the real problem isn’t Luke’s defense it is that the coaching staff refuses to accept our defensive limitiations and move to the Suns model that works so much better with this team…Isn’t it strange that when we play Phoenix we typically have a good game??
March 1st, 2007 at 11:54 am
“Another problem that is very apparent is that when our PG gets left in the dust our bigs are not good at helping out. By the time most of them react, the opposing PG is already laying the ball in the hoop for a layup.”
To be fair its the PG, SG, and SF that get burned on the perimeter…….which at the same time isn’t fair to the big men either. It is fair to blast Ridnours D, because overall…..it does suck. But he can’t take all the blame when Ray/Shard are equally as bad.
Any solid veteran off the bench, like Cassell, would be huge for this team.
March 1st, 2007 at 12:00 pm
“To be fair its the PG, SG, and SF that get burned on the perimeter…….which at the same time isn’t fair to the big men either. It is fair to blast Ridnours D, because overall…..it does suck. But he can’t take all the blame when Ray/Shard are equally as bad. ”
Oh, agreed, our PG’s aren’t the only ones getting beat on the perimeter, it happens to Ray and Rashard pretty often too………however that doesn’t change the fact our bigs are horrible help defenders. It is almost comical watching the reactions from Wilcox and Petro when our perimeter players get beat.
I believe there were a couple times last night where Cassell was laying the ball in the hoop and I don’t think either Wilcox or Petro were aware the other team had scored until the ball had hit the floor. I don’t think they understand the concept of “see your man and the ball at all times” on defense.
March 1st, 2007 at 12:00 pm
“That’s just priceless. I’d have to disagree and say that people in “true basketball circles” do realize that Luke is getting burned on perimeter quite a bit. They, like most of us, may still like Luke for the other valuable parts of his game, but thinking that “true basketball circles” see something too much different is hilarious.”
The point remains you are not in a true basketball circle–therefore you have no idea what is said within those circles. All that you know is what you’re told.
Put your money where your mouth is–go back, watch the game and tell me the instances in which Luke got beat, time and quarter. I’ve watched it thoroughly and there is now way he got beat more than twice…
March 1st, 2007 at 12:01 pm
“Honestly, the real problem isn’t Luke’s defense it is that the coaching staff refuses to accept our defensive limitiations and move to the Suns model that works so much better with this team…Isn’t it strange that when we play Phoenix we typically have a good game??”
I think thats a great idea. Why we don’t play a more run and gun style is baffling to me. We can’t defend anyone…..so why not just try to outscore them. Its pretty clear to the world what our limitations are. Why don’t we focus on the positives……what we are good at…….and thats been scoring.
With Rid/Ray/Shard/Collison/Wilcox we have 5 guys that can all get out and run. I think its in our best interest to do that.
March 1st, 2007 at 12:01 pm
“Let me explain one or two quick things to you about how the NBA works. ”
Wow! I can’t wait for more divine insight into the inner workings of the NBA. Please stick around and enlighten us all.
Not really making a very good first impression here, SM.
March 1st, 2007 at 12:03 pm
Wait…if two of the Sonics’ minority owners have spent a million dollars to protect their relgious beliefs don’t you think they’d have a problem with signing an extra terestrial like Cassel?
Personally, that is why I don’t care if the Sonics leave…if the owners cannot jump on board with my liberal Seattle politics and accept ALL lifeforms…human AND alien…then I don’t want them as my neighbor!
March 1st, 2007 at 12:06 pm
SM,
- Can I be in your circle?? Im already apart of Dwyane Wade’s….me, Dwyane and Chuck are good friends…
- To say that people in the know do not think Ridnour’s defense is poor is pretty funny…
Menace,
- Don’t just include those five…Petro, Earl, Damien, Gelabale. OUR ENTIRE roster is built to run and gun…it would be too logical to actually do it…
March 1st, 2007 at 12:07 pm
I was actually in favor of a more slow down offense this year to hide our defense as much as possible. However, the team has proven that they cannot execute in the halfcourt (really think it is a scheme thing…) so we might as well run and gun
March 1st, 2007 at 12:09 pm
“The point remains you are not in a true basketball circle–therefore you have no idea what is said within those circles. ”
Well, it is awfully nice of YOU, Mr. Insider himself to grace us with your great “Inside the NBA” knowledge or at least the great knowledge that all those insider buddies of yours tell you.
As far as your little challenge. I didn’t record the game and don’t plan on watching it again. I’m pretty confident from what I watched last night and have seen in the past……Despite your love fest for Luke, he is not a very good one on one perimeter defender.
March 1st, 2007 at 12:09 pm
“Not really making a very good first impression here, SM.”
Not really looking to make a good first impression with guys who don’ t understand much about the game. I only originally looked on this site because I heard that I could find out some good info about upcoming arena situation. Once I saw the comment about Ridnour’s D that once again–is only an opinion in the media–not an opinion of people in the know in the NBA–I had to comment. Remember–Just because over a million horseflies eat cow dung doesn’t make it delicious…
March 1st, 2007 at 12:14 pm
“However, the team has proven that they cannot execute in the halfcourt (really think it is a scheme thing…) so we might as well run and gun ”
I was wondering something about our half court sets. I couldn’t figure out if our players were just crappy at executing the plays or if the plays were just crap.
All I remember from last night was either the PG gets a high pick and role or the ball goes to the wing and we run a pick and role from the wing. Or we posted up Rashard in the 4th on the block. That was pretty much it. Not very creative and not very affective during crunch time.
March 1st, 2007 at 12:17 pm
“Let me explain one or two quick things to you about how the NBA works. These are the best athletes in the world with the most extraordinary offesnive skills seen anywhere on the planet. The offensive player is always at an advantage. If a guy gets beat once–maybe twice a game–he has done a great job–especially on someone as lethal as Cassell. ”
Please, tell me more about how the NBA really works. Our sources obviously neglect to share cutting-edge insights like that with us.
Now at long last I know differently. If Luke Ridnour is a defensive stalwart, then Rashard Lewis surely has to be nearly on his level too, wouldn’t you say everybody? Rashard doesn’t get burned much more than 2-3 times a game either.
March 1st, 2007 at 12:19 pm
“Not really looking to make a good first impression with guys who don’ t understand much about the game.”
Well, I must say, that I am soooooooo very impressed with your claims of having such great insider knowledge and such great analysis that we truely are not worthy [/sarscam].
Despite your insistence to the contrary, I do not believe for a second that “NBA insiders” believe that Luke Ridnour is a good defensive PG.
March 1st, 2007 at 12:22 pm
SM……what part of Ridnour’s D is good?
“Don’t just include those five…Petro, Earl, Damien, Gelabale. OUR ENTIRE roster is built to run and gun…it would be too logical to actually do it… ”
Its so true. All of our guys can get out and really run the floor (decently). We might get blown out by a lot more, but it would be fun to watch at least.
March 1st, 2007 at 12:23 pm
“The point remains you are not in a true basketball circle–therefore you have no idea what is said within those circles.”
Couldn’t the same be argued of you?
“I was actually in favor of a more slow down offense this year to hide our defense as much as possible. However, the team has proven that they cannot execute in the halfcourt (really think it is a scheme thing…) so we might as well run and gun.”
I’ve got this ongoing assumption that might be way off but from a efficiency standpoint if we give up 2.2 more points per 100 possessions than we score and we increase the possessions won’t we just lose by more each game? I do see your point, just throwing this out for discussion
“I was wondering something about our half court sets. I couldn’t figure out if our players were just crappy at executing the plays or if the plays were just crap.”
I thought what last night really demonstrated was a fundimental lack of being able to adjust along with other teams. As the fourth quarter wore on we just kept dumping into Lewis on the post against Thomas, and the Clippers just kept bringing the double and triple and we never adjusted to it.
Personally, I didn’t think Luke’s defense on Cassell was much worse than Earl’s was. What really killed were the last two offensive possession’s by Watson. I have supreme confidence that Luke gets that pass to Collison and we don’t have to foul. LA calls time out and if you want to reinsert Earl then, you do it.
March 1st, 2007 at 12:41 pm
I’ve got this ongoing assumption that might be way off but from a efficiency standpoint if we give up 2.2 more points per 100 possessions than we score and we increase the possessions won’t we just lose by more each game? I do see your point, just throwing this out for discussion
— This was why during the summer I was arguing for a slow down game. However, I believe that the reason we give up 2.2 more points per possession is because our half court offense is so inefficient that we don’t score as much as our talent says it should. Also, Phoenix seems to have shown that if you can dictate the tempo it can cause teams to try and score more quickly than normal…leading to ineffciencies..
All that being said…this sure ain’t working…might as well try something else.
I was wondering something about our half court sets. I couldn’t figure out if our players were just crappy at executing the plays or if the plays were just crap.
— I’ve said this numerous times…our offensive sets are boring and lack any sort of movement. We have a player (Wilcox) hanging out at the FT line where you limit all of his effectiveness…its just poorly run.
Once I saw the comment about Ridnour’s D that once again–is only an opinion in the media–not an opinion of people in the know in the NBA–I had to comment.
— I’ll bet you that in general there are more Ridnour apologists on this site than Ridnour haters. He simply is not a good defender and probably never will be…he does not have the strength to misdirect the players he is guarding and so he has to rely on his quickness to cover up his flaws. Unfortunately, this doesn’t help when we play SA and Parker can blow by him…or Cassell where he can use his muscle to negate Ridnour’s abilities.
It’s nothing against Luke…he is what he is…Steve Nash isn’t a good defender and he seems to be pretty valuable in the league…
If you disagree please let me know what NBA Insider Circles you run in. It seems odd you’d need to come to this site for Arena information when you are so well connected.
March 1st, 2007 at 1:01 pm
Actually got around to reading the Round Up…the attitudes of the people in our state is really depressing me…
March 1st, 2007 at 1:05 pm
I agree with those of you that chastise Ridnour for his defense. However, I do not understand the criticism levied against Ray and Rashard. Ray has excellent instincts for getting steals in transition. Rashard made an absolutely terrific block on Kaman in the final minute that gave the Sonics a chance until Watson threw his errant pass. Neither is a good on-the-ball defender, but to call them terrible defenders is an inaccurate. On the other hand, I concur that Ridnour has no talent at all on the defensive end of the court.
For those of you that are so pro-defense, please tell me how many playoff games that Shane Battier has won. He’s won the same number of playoff games that you and I have won, zero.
Of course, you pro-defense guys will counter and say that Bruce Bowen has won two championships. My response is that great defense with terrible offense is worse than great offense with average defense. Ray and Rashard fit the latter category, Bowen fits the former (and Battier to a lesser extent, his whole offensive game consists of standing around and waiting for three point shots).
March 1st, 2007 at 1:07 pm
“SM……what part of Ridnour’s D is good?”
Fair question Menace: Luke’s greatest attribute as a defender–which Nate will tell you time and again is his ability to defend 90 feet. His ability to pressure a PG from the time the ball is thrown in is a very valuable asset to the overall success of the Sonics Team defense. Unfortunately, this strategy/defensive implentation has not been used effectively since Nate left.
Luke moves laterally very well and anticipates movement of his man better than most as well. He is also an excellent help defender–positions himself well, doubles-down well and gets in the passing lanes.
Luke lacks the strength to defend bigger guards on the block and has been known to misplay the pick and roll, which at times looks like a result of defensive strategy–because the Sonics as a whole defend the pick and roll poorly.
March 1st, 2007 at 1:10 pm
From the defensive numbers at 82 games, Luke is a better individual defender than he was last season by a good bit and so is his team defense number (and even relatively- he is only 5th worst on team this season while he was 2nd worst last season).. His individual defense 47% eFG allowed for 20 pts for a little less than a 17 PER allowed seems pretty close to average. It is in fact very similar to Steve Nash’s on the first and third numbers this season but Nash gives up 22 pts per 48. His individual and team defense are a little better than Watson’s at PG this season as well. I find Ridnour’s defensive improvement somewhat encouraging but I do not expect him to a difference maker on defense. Watson was, but not this year and I don not know what to expect in the future.
March 1st, 2007 at 1:14 pm
myk says “he does not have the strength to misdirect the players he is guarding and so he has to rely on his quickness to cover up his flaws. Unfortunately, this doesn’t help when we play SA and Parker can blow by him…”
First comment is again misinformation. The art of the zig/zag or misdirection of a defender as you call it lies precisely in the defenders ability to get in front of the offensive player with his quickness, not his strength. It is the defenders job to turn the offensive player by anticipating his intended location and beating him to that spot—something that clearly relies on quickness, not strength(read my point about Luke’s lack of strength–it does affect his ability to defend, bt not in the manner which you sy.)
The part about Parker blowing by him is another ridiculous comment. Luke Ridnour can not stay in front of Tony Parker on his best day–but fortunately for Luke–neither can anyone else on this planet…
March 1st, 2007 at 1:18 pm
Well, y’all can mark me down as one of the guys who’s emphatically detested Luke Ridnour’s defenseless game from the start of his career with the Seattle Supersonics back in 2003. Additionally, I’ll never become one of Ridnour’s moronic apologists.
March 1st, 2007 at 1:20 pm
By the numbers, Allen is a little worse than average covering his own man but weak rating on team defense suggests he is not contributing much positive in that way. Lewis is decidedly below average defending his own man this season (continuing the slip he showed last season) but it appears he is a somewhat better help defender.
March 1st, 2007 at 1:22 pm
“Luke’s greatest attribute as a defender–which Nate will tell you time and again is his ability to defend 90 feet.”
Luke is good at pesting the opposing PG for the first 70 feet eating up some valuable time on the shot clock……however the last 20 ft…..not so much. And its not even so much that he gets bullied on the block by a bigger PG, the bigger issue, IMO is that PG’s get by him and into the middle of the paint far too often, which then results in our interior defense breaking down due to lack of rotation. Quite often these PG’s are getting into the paint because Luke doesn’t have the strength to keep them from muscling by him.
I will agree that Luke is a good help defender and gets a number of steals when doubling down or sneaking in behind rebounders and stealing the ball when they bring it down. But when your primary job as the PG is to keep the opposing teams PG out of the paint, then these others are nice qualities but pale in comparison to the primary deficiency.
Agreed, Luke does get stuck while trying to defend the pick and role both because he isn’t strong enough to fight over the pick and because most of our bigs don’t jump out effectively and help slow the player coming off the pick in order to allow Luke to recover while going underneath.
March 1st, 2007 at 1:25 pm
“Luke moves laterally very well”
LOL!! Now I know you belong to the Luke Klux Klan. That is claerly one of his biggest weaknesses. His lack of first step quickness. My gawd we’ve watched him for four years now and seen him get blown past like he was nailed to the floor literally thousands of times.
Whatever attributes Luke has, lateral quickness is NOT one of them. Your arrogant assertion to the contrary fits well with your cow dung analogy. You seem to be spewing large amounts of it.
March 1st, 2007 at 1:25 pm
“Luke Ridnour can not stay in front of Tony Parker on his best day — but fortunately for Luke — neither can anyone else on this planet.”
In all actuality, SM, Devin Harris did his damnedest — which, mind you, was remarkably solid — while guarding Tony Parker during the 2006 Western Conference Semifinals.
March 1st, 2007 at 1:31 pm
“First comment is again misinformation. The art of the zig/zag or misdirection of a defender as you call it lies precisely in the defenders ability to get in front of the offensive player with his quickness, not his strength. It is the defenders job to turn the offensive player by anticipating his intended location and beating him to that spot—something that clearly relies on quickness, not strength(read my point about Luke’s lack of strength–it does affect his ability to defend, bt not in the manner which you sy.)”
Yes, Luke is quick and can turn the defender which is what helps him pester the opposing payer for the first 70 ft, however once they get in the half court set the pace slows down and opposing PG’s are able to either rub him off a pick and get in the paint or just flat out muscle by him and get into the paint.
It happens more often than you admit and is a problem and is Luke’s biggest problem on defense.
March 1st, 2007 at 1:39 pm
“Honestly, the real problem isn’t Luke’s defense it is that the coaching staff refuses to accept our defensive limitiations and move to the Suns model that works so much better with this team…Isn’t it strange that when we play Phoenix we typically have a good game?? ”
Halleluiah! Finally, something that might work! I think the Sonics had a more Run and Gun offense when Nate was around. That is why the Sonics made it to the playoffs. Hopefully Bob Hill wises up or the organization fires him and gets a coach that realizes that that is the kind of offense the Sonics should be running.
March 1st, 2007 at 1:43 pm
““Luke moves laterally very well”
LOL!! Now I know you belong to the Luke Klux Klan. That is claerly one of his biggest weaknesses. His lack of first step quickness. My gawd we’ve watched him for four years now and seen him get blown past like he was nailed to the floor literally thousands of times.
Whatever attributes Luke has, lateral quickness is NOT one of them. Your arrogant assertion to the contrary fits well with your cow dung analogy. You seem to be spewing large amounts of it.”
wait wait wait..
SM has made some pretty outlandish comments but…. yo Luke’s only strength on defense is his anticipation and lateral quickness. Let’s not discount that.
And to pinpoint Ridnour’s lack of defense based on his performance against TONY PARKER?
Come on y’all.. Be real.
Parker makes his living off burning people.
That’s like saying Shawn Marion is not a good defender caz Gilbert Arenas dropped 54 on him.
Matter of fact, I’ve seen Ridnour strips the ball from Parker on a fast break more than once. You know how difficult is that?
March 1st, 2007 at 1:44 pm
One area where Ridnour’s defense slipped a little this season was in % of shots allowed to counterpart in the paint. It went up from 25% to 26%. That is probably higher than average. But Watson’s did the exact same thing. Both are higher than their own % of shots taken in the paint. But these numbers don’t capture the greater damage caused by drive & dish.
We dont have individual defense in the clutch numbers and it is a small sample liable to osciliate but Ridnour’s team defensive number in the clutch improved almost 15 pts per 48 minutes from last season to this season and was also 15 points better than Watson’s this season. Watson’s team defensive rating last in the clutch last season was 25 points better than this season and thus 10 points better than with Ridnour this season. That was defensive difference making and I would argue it was the only such major impact on the team. And this year it wasnt there. I think most teams at least 2 of these type guys in the rotation to help win close games, especially when the Fg shooting isnt blazing good as it wont be quite often.
March 1st, 2007 at 1:51 pm
“Halleluiah! Finally, something that might work! I think the Sonics had a more Run and Gun offense when Nate was around. That is why the Sonics made it to the playoffs.”
Actually, under Nate, when the Sonics had a good season 2004/2005 the Sonics were a very much, slow down, half court, execution style team. They ran solid half court sets and finished games out strong with AD taking the ball to the hole and finishing, getting fouled or kicking it to Ray, Rashard or Rad for the open jumper that put the nail in the coffin.
March 1st, 2007 at 1:51 pm
GP–I appreciate your agreement–but could you please recite some of my outlandish comments?
March 1st, 2007 at 1:54 pm
Watson’s on the ball defense has really disappointed me this season. I was expecting much better based on the second half of last season, but it just hasn’t been there. Oh, that and his belief that a 23 foot jumper from himself is a good scoring option late in games during key possessions.
March 1st, 2007 at 1:54 pm
Clarification to last sentence above:
I think most ….well-designed / above average… teams have at least 2 of these type guys in the rotation to help win close games…
That is an ingredient I think they need. Sonics management might think Watson /Gelabale/Collison/the future Swift somewhere within that we’ve got it covered but the record shows it hasnt been consistently and I am skeptical that will be enough in the future.
March 1st, 2007 at 2:12 pm
Watson in 6th year and Ridnour is 4th but Watson only has a 10% advantage in NBA minutes 8800 to 8000. If Ridnour is still learning, Watson is in almost the same boat. It is borderline, I dont like relying on the argument but maybe better days are ahead. Certainly both have to count as and play as full veterans next year and beyond.
March 1st, 2007 at 2:18 pm
Watson had averaged 2 18+ pt games a year previously. He has 4 this year including 2 in past week. Nothing to get excited about yet but something to watch down the stretch to see if he can add more. But scoring is probably third on the PG’s job priority list to me behind passing and defense.
March 1st, 2007 at 2:28 pm
“Halleluiah! Finally, something that might work! I think the Sonics had a more Run and Gun offense when Nate was around.”
We were actually about 8 possessions a game slower Nate’s last year. We were about 3 points per 100 possessions better however.
March 1st, 2007 at 2:28 pm
At least so long as it is in the current context of SG and SF both being the bigtime shooters.
March 1st, 2007 at 2:28 pm
SK:
- There is no point in continuing this discussion because your points are so far fetched that I know you will never be able to accept a rational argument.
- PGs can penetrate on Luke at will…its strange how you say he is so quick that he can turn players and yet he can’t stop a decent PG from penetrating. To pull out a line you would used: “If you knew basketball at all” you would realize that it isn’t very hard to D up a guy in the back court when he is walking the ball up the court. Once he gets to where he needs to make a move he blows by Luke.
Even when Luke can stay in front of him his strength is a disadvantage because he can’t slow him. His strength also severely limits him when trying to play the screen and role.
I give Luke all the credit in the world. The guy is was a horrible defender and he is looking to be able to improve to being a below average defender. If he can be a plus offensively he will be a good NBA player.
Alex:
- Wow!!!! You’ve said some crazy stuff but to argue that Ray and Rashard are not horrible defenders kind of takes the cake. I’d actually argue that Luke is probably the best of the three because he is at least trying 100% of the time. But you are right the fact that Shane Battier hasn’t won a playoff game and our team has won a grand total of 6 in the last 6 years means that we’re on to something…
March 1st, 2007 at 2:29 pm
Steve Patterson just resigned in Portland (GM). No reason give why.
Big Chris
March 1st, 2007 at 2:29 pm
“Halleluiah! Finally, something that might work! I think the Sonics had a more Run and Gun offense when Nate was around.”
We were actually about 8 possessions a game slower Nate’s last year. We were about 3 points per 100 possessions better however.
- Yes that is why I was aruging we needed to slow things down this summer. However, during that same year we were very efficient on offense. We scored or we got the offensive rebound. Our team does not do either so we might as well try to let them run.
March 1st, 2007 at 2:30 pm
Ya…it seems odd that Patterson would go through all the bad stuff and once the team is finally turning the corner he steps away…something must be going on behind closed doors
March 1st, 2007 at 2:34 pm
I really wanted the Sonics to trade Ridnour over the summer - i did not think he could improve as much as some hoped he would. That said, both his offense and defense have improved by a good amount this year (generally based on the statistics from 82 games). For example, he is holding his opponent PG to an effective FG% of about .472 (he is shoting 490 or so). My issue is that he seems to be more reckless with the ball this year - too many turnovers. I am guessing that has something to do with Hill as the coach and the “offense” he has put in.
In general, I have found it strange that Hill seems to feel that Watson is better - when most statistical measures i look at suggest otherwise. Maybe Watson’s playing time is another subtle attempt to lose games.
March 1st, 2007 at 2:37 pm
“Steve Patterson just resigned in Portland (GM). No reason give why.”
I would assume that moving Tod Luewicki from Vulcan in might have given Patterson a good reason to see the writing on the wall.
March 1st, 2007 at 2:49 pm
Wow, I just saw the video of Shaun Livingston’s injury, not cool. Wow, makes me feel bad. For his sake, I hope it doesn’t end his career.
March 1st, 2007 at 2:52 pm
“I would assume that moving Tod Luewicki from Vulcan in might have given Patterson a good reason to see the writing on the wall. ”
It says he may only be GM temporarily.
http://tinyurl.com/23s8fg
Portland Trail Blazers president and general manager Steve Patterson unexpectedly resigned today.
Tod Leiweke, chief executive officer of the Seattle Seahawks, will take over Patterson’s duties while a replacement is found, team owner Paul Allen’s company said.
Patterson has been the team president since 2003. He became the GM after John Nash was fired last May. The resignation came hours before the Trail Blazers (24-34) played at home tonight against Charlotte.
Portland is next to last in the Northwest Division but has regrouped this season after finishing with a league-worst 21-61 record last year. The improvement has been sparked by a flurry of draft-day trades and an infusion of young talent, including potential rookie of the year Brandon Roy.
Leiweke will remain in his role with the Seahawks. The Seahawks and the Blazers are owned by Allen, the billionaire co-founder of Microsoft.
“Putting the Portland Trail Blazers and the Seattle Seahawks under a common management umbrella underscores my commitment to the future of both franchises,” Allen said. “Tod has done great things for the Seahawks, and I fully expect similar results for the Trail Blazers,” he said.
Patterson said his contract was to expire soon and “this was simply the right time to step away.”
“I take great pride in what we achieved during my time in Portland and am confident we have placed this organization on a path that will result in success for many years to come,” Patterson added. “We have faced and overcome significant challenges in the past four seasons and now is the right time for the team to push ahead with new management.”
Leiweke also will become the CEO of a newly formed management company, Vulcan Sports & Entertainment.
Vulcan Inc. is Allen’s company. Vulcan Sports will oversee the Trail Blazers, and all properties currently run by the Seahawks. The company will also run the Rose Garden Arena and Memorial Coliseum, upon completion of Vulcan’s negotiations with Portland Arena Management to reacquire the property, according to Vulcan.
“Over the last couple of years, we’ve created some great memories for Seahawks fans,” Leiweke said. “I look forward to creating the opportunity for Portland and all the Trail Blazer fans to have those same experiences.”
March 1st, 2007 at 2:52 pm
Patterson’s contract is up and he wasnt going to get renewed. Resigning ahead of nonrenewal was his preferred exit.
March 1st, 2007 at 2:54 pm
I really wanted the Sonics to trade Ridnour over the summer - i did not think he could improve as much as some hoped he would. That said, both his offense and defense have improved by a good amount this year (generally based on the statistics from 82 games). For example, he is holding his opponent PG to an effective FG% of about .472 (he is shoting 490 or so). My issue is that he seems to be more reckless with the ball this year - too many turnovers. I am guessing that has something to do with Hill as the coach and the “offense” he has put in.
In general, I have found it strange that Hill seems to feel that Watson is better - when most statistical measures i look at suggest otherwise. Maybe Watson’s playing time is another subtle attempt to lose games.
March 1st, 2007 at 2:55 pm
Wow, that’s a pretty short tenure for a GM. Patterson’s interim tag was just removed in October 2006.
Seems really weird that they wouldn’t just move Kevin Pritchard into that position instead of Leiweke.
March 1st, 2007 at 2:58 pm
Unless as TK mentioned this is a way for Patterson to exit under his own terms rather be “let go”, in that case why remove Patterson’s interim tag at all for a 5 month tenure?
March 1st, 2007 at 3:05 pm
Some explanation & reaction :
http://www.sportsbusinessradio.com/?q=node/792
March 1st, 2007 at 3:07 pm
There should be more but there probably will be at least a couple of GM vacancies this summer. Memphis the most likely. For those looking for the security of a new lease.
March 1st, 2007 at 3:09 pm
MYK–I go by SM, not SK–probably my last post of all time:
While I have been arrogant and condescending–which I understand makes you “basketball gurus” a little testy–I have said nothing that is far fetched. Luke is an above average defender for all of the reasons that i have previously stated. I have to point out your erroneous comments so that people understand who is knowledgeable and who isn’t here. Your last quote:
““If you knew basketball at all” you would realize that it isn’t very hard to D up a guy in the back court when he is walking the ball up the court. Once he gets to where he needs to make a move he blows by Luke.
This quote wreaks of basketball ignorance and I’ll tell you why: The most difficult area to defend someone–especially a PG–is in the backcourt. The defender is a full 90 feet from the basket and has made himself vulnerable to the offensive player who is in control of the ball. There is considerably more space and room to go by a defender in a backcourt and if a defender is beaten at that point, the entire defense is in breakdown and recover mode. I hate to sound like an a-hole-but comments like these CLEARLY show that you have never played, coached, scouted or understood basketball at any level. You are obviously free to debate the Sonics all day long–but do not try and pawn yourself off as an expert–when you clearly are the opposite.
March 1st, 2007 at 3:12 pm
Pritchard probably will be the first candidate evaluated, but this summer. Naming Leiweke leaves them room to consider Vandeweighe, etc. and possibly leave Pritchard as no. 2.
March 1st, 2007 at 3:15 pm
Because Tod Leiweke — whose surname was completely butchered by Scott — is now the CEO of both the Portland Trailblazers and the Seattle Seahawks, he’ll definitely have a busy schedule.
During the next several weeks, it’ll be interesting to see who Leiweke decides to hire as the new Cheif Operating Officer (i.e., President) and Vice President of Basketball Operations (i.e., General Manager). It’s highly unlikely that either position will be Bob Whitsitt, however—especially since he lost his job as Paul Allen’s lackey a few years ago due to being a jackass while working for the Seattle Seahawks.
At the start of the upcoming off-season, the first thing that the guy making personnel decisions for the ‘blazers should do is attempt to trade Darius Miles. Because of Miles’ injury proneness and detrimentally abrasive personality, he needs to be dealt elsewhere—even if it’s for nothing more than an overpaid stiff like Adonal Foyle.
Actually, Foyle might not be a horrendous replacement for Jamaal Magloire come next season. Of course, the frontcourt duo of Foyle and Raef LaFrentz at center and power forward, respectively, would probably be the most expensive tandem of third-stringers in NBA history.
Okay, I need to cease creating idiotic trade proposals.
March 1st, 2007 at 3:18 pm
“Because Tod Leiweke — whose surname was completely butchered by Scott”
Why not butcher it, gives unemployed radio DJ’s something to correct:P
March 1st, 2007 at 3:43 pm
Watson’s on the ball defense has really disappointed me this season. I was expecting much better based on the second half of last season, but it just hasn’t been there. Oh, that and his belief that a 23 foot jumper from himself is a good scoring option late in games during key possessions.
Last night in the final seven seconds or so was one of the few instances where I’d have liked seeing one of those 23 footers (when the defense sagged off of him) instead of watching Watson dribble out most of the clock.
March 1st, 2007 at 3:44 pm
Pritchard probably will be the first candidate evaluated, but this summer. Naming Leiweke leaves them room to consider Vandeweighe, etc. and possibly leave Pritchard as no. 2.
March 1st, 2007 at 3:45 pm
SM,
- We are used to arrogant and condescending…its what we keep AK around for
- As for your “points”…you have obviously never played basketball. Adding token pressure in the back court is not difficult at all. The offensive PG is busy setting up the offense they plan to run and is more worried about getting the ball over half court and not completing a move to the basket.
I mean lets just look at your theory with a bit of logic…here is your argument:
1) Guarding the PG in the backcourt is difficult because there is more space to cover
2) Luke can guard the PG in the backcourt
Therefore: Luke is a good defender.
Now lets take your same argument and add a twist you decide to ignore:
1) Guarding the PG in the backcourt is difficult because there is more space to cover
NEW 2) Guarding the PG in the halfcourt is EASIER because there is less space to cover (and I assume you would argue there are more players ot help out)
3) Luke is good at the harder part but horrible at the easier part…??
Hmm why does the logic seemed flawed here I am really confused. TOKEN pressure is not difficult you just keep off the guy about three or feet and stay in front of him as he walks the ball up the court. There simply is not one metric that supports your claim he is an above average defender
I’m willing to argue that Luke has improved to not a complete liability…I applaud him for it…
March 1st, 2007 at 3:49 pm
Pritchard probably will be the first candidate evaluated, but this summer. Naming Leiweke leaves them room to consider Vandeweighe, etc. and possibly leave Pritchard as no. 2.
March 1st, 2007 at 3:57 pm
“Pritchard probably will be the first candidate evaluated, but this summer. Naming Leiweke leaves them room to consider Vandeweighe, etc. and possibly leave Pritchard as no. 2. ”
I think the theory put forward by the sports business radio link seems plausible. They could have Leiweke run the business side of things with Pritchard in charge of basketball operations and carrying the GM title. They seem to have a number of good in-house solutions at their disposal. I would be surprised if they brought in someone from outside like Kiki since that isn’t really Allen’s style, but it’s an astute suggestion that makes sense.
March 1st, 2007 at 3:58 pm
Sorry for the accidental double post. Folks disagree about Ridnour and with his mixed record it is easy to see why. Will see how it looks after 25 more games.
March 1st, 2007 at 3:59 pm
TK:
- Folks disagree about Ridnour is the is he horrible at defense or just passable. SM is the first person to ever say that Luke Ridnour was in fact a above average defender…its just nonsense…you never watch a Sonics game and go wow Luke is really shutting down their PG.
March 1st, 2007 at 4:01 pm
” I’d have liked seeing one of those 23 footers (when the defense sagged off of him) instead of watching Watson dribble out most of the clock. ”
I think he did finally jack one up, but it was with less than 10 seconds to go and the game was over at that point. Caught nothing but rim, too. ;o)
March 1st, 2007 at 4:02 pm
Kiki’s reputation sure fell from his hay day in Denver…why aren’t we talking about him as a potential replacement for Sund…if Sund is already fired what is the point of waiting till the end of the season to do it?
What does a GM do during this time period anyways?? There are no trades to be discussed and I am sure there is only high level draft scouting being completed…go get a new GM and begin moving the team forward
March 1st, 2007 at 4:04 pm
MYK–sound logic (sarcasm)
Nothing you just said makes any sense from a basketball standpoint and anyone on this site that reads it and knows basketball will know that. They will also know by your explanation which one of us has played basketball at a high level and which one hasn’t.
Good luck attempting to analyze a game that is clearly beyond your comprehension.
March 1st, 2007 at 4:11 pm
Good luck attempting to analyze a game that is clearly beyond your comprehension.
Must be lonely on the top?
March 1st, 2007 at 4:12 pm
SM…
OK…I didn’t expect to change your mind. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion even if it doesn’t really make sense. If you want to believe that somehow Ridnour is able to do the “hard” defense well but then just forgets how to play once it becomes easier that is all on you…
Its like you want me to start picking a fight with you and its not going to happen…I learned long ago to just let people believe what they want to believe no matter how little it makes sense.
How’s this for a little nugget of information. You made this claim:
His ability to pressure a PG from the time the ball is thrown in is a very valuable asset to the overall success of the Sonics Team defense. Unfortunately, this strategy/defensive implentation has not been used effectively since Nate left.
I find it odd that everyone would claim that his defense has improved mariginally since he has entered the league and yet the thing you claim he does best he doesn’t even do anymore…
Its OK…
March 1st, 2007 at 4:12 pm
“if Sund is already fired what is the point of waiting till the end of the season to do it?”
Good question, I agree wholeheartedly. When was the last time this happened?
“What does a GM do during this time period anyways?? There are no trades to be discussed and I am sure there is only high level draft scouting being completed…go get a new GM and begin moving the team forward”
My guess would be that the top candidates are all contractually obligated to other teams. Thus if you were to fire Sund you’d be looking at an interim basis. So basically a PR move, I’d still be interested in it.
March 1st, 2007 at 4:14 pm
“They will also know by your explanation which one of us has played basketball at a high level and which one hasn’t.”
Couldn’t be much higher than the high school level, which probably makes you about as far along as most people here. You are posting using a college email address and from a college IP;)
March 1st, 2007 at 4:15 pm
SM,
- By the way you still haven’t fully discussed these “Insider NBA Circles” you are apart of…I’d love to know where you get all of your inside information…
You aren’t Stephon Marbury are you? Are you just trying to talk up Luke’s D so that when you dominate him you look like you aren’t the aging former superstar you are??
March 1st, 2007 at 4:15 pm
“They will also know by your explanation which one of us has played basketball at a high level and which one hasn’t.”
I won’t profess to having played D-I ball, but I did play in college (even hit 9 threes in one game) and I understand the game pretty well, despite what some may think.
And your contention that Luke Ridnour is an above average defender does speak volumes and does tell everyone on this site all they need to know about you.
You made some good points regarding Luke’s help defense and he is quick and I agree his lateral quickness is better than someone mentioned above, but he DOES NOT play good on the ball defense in the half court game and does give up way too much penetration to opposing teams PG’s. To claim otherwise just shows that analyzing Luke’s defense is clearly beyond your comprehension.
So I say to you, “Mr. Insider Info and Self Proclaimed Analysis Expert”……make your own words stand true…..and let that be your last post for all time………
March 1st, 2007 at 4:17 pm
“Kiki’s reputation sure fell from his hay day in Denver…why aren’t we talking about him as a potential replacement for Sund…”
IMO Kiki got screwed to an extent, but the Kenyon Martin signing had a lot to do with it…that’s killed the Nuggets as much as Vin Baker’s max deal killed the Sonics. He took over after Issel had done a completely horrible job as GM and coach and turned them around over the space of 3 years … he did what the Sonics never had the courage to do, get bad enough to actually get a franchise player, then build a roster around that player. He made some good trades too, getting Camby and Nene in exchange for Antonio McDyess. I’ve heard that Kiki didn’t want to hire Karl but since Karl had such a close relationship with the Kroenkes, it essentially usurped any authority he’d have as GM.
I don’t know if he has any interest in being a GM these days. But with the Memphis, Seattle and perhaps NY jobs all open next season he may land somewhere.
March 1st, 2007 at 4:18 pm
Scott…
- Guess I was referring to a guy like Kiki. I’m not really sure if he was pushed out because of Furious George or if it was also due to his talent evaluation skills. He seemed to do a good job of tearing down a team and creating cap space…
- College kid, huh? Must be pretty cool to be an NBA Insider at such a young age. I was too busy talking to girls back then…I would’ve never had the time. Besides back then we had Gary, so there was no question about the PGs defensive abilities (unless he was playing Robert Pack)
March 1st, 2007 at 4:21 pm
I find the whole Kenyon Martin situation fascinating. Just in general when you see players who are All-Star type players (Martin, Francis etc.) just drop off the face of the Earth in less than a year…how do you go from being a top 20-30 player to coming off the bench? It must be pretty difficult in all honesty.
Guess I feel the same way about one-hit wonder bands. How can you have a huge hit and then not even get a second single released??
March 1st, 2007 at 4:23 pm
“We are used to arrogant and condescending…its what we keep AK around for:)”
To be honest with y’all, I’m not too fond of SM upstaging me with his arrogance, egotism, pomposity, and smugness. At this rate, I may not be able to compete with him. Yet, that notwithstanding, I’ll always be the most crass guy here.
March 1st, 2007 at 4:29 pm
Scott-professional work—you announcing my e-mail origination.
You guys stick together nicely–almost like Frat guys.
A lot of people use their college email addresses long after they graduate by the way.
As for MYK and his days with the ladies–a lot of former lady killers spend night and day on basketball blogs…yeah–I bet you were a real killer with the ladies…
March 1st, 2007 at 4:30 pm
When you are never wrong like me you don’t need to rely on arrogance to get your point accross
March 1st, 2007 at 4:33 pm
SM,
- I have another post sitting in moderation that addresses your “logic” completely…you simply made a dumb statement and won’t back off of it. Ratchet it back to Luke being an average defender and I won’t agree with you, but I wont think you are crazy either…
- Don’t worry I enjoy having a job that pays me well that allows me to sneak over and BS about the Sonics in between my other responsibilities.
March 1st, 2007 at 4:35 pm
Sorry last “off Sonics” response…SM, I wouldn’t try to say that Scott is sticking up for someone like me….we never agree with one another…
he is one of my SWORN enemies on this site…well at least as much of a SWORN enemy as you can have when talking about a last place basketball team that hasn’t been successful since I was in college.
March 1st, 2007 at 4:38 pm
“You guys stick together nicely–almost like Frat guys.”
lol! You obviously don’t visit here very often. Matter of fact I don’t think we’ve ever all agreed on a subject, that is until you came around making the statement the Luke Ridnour is an above average defensive player.
March 1st, 2007 at 4:42 pm
Well, SM, I can’t speak on behalf of Myk; however, I’ll willingly admit I’m not a fan of the ladies. Instead, I prefer broads.
Throughout my experiences, ladies are overly high-maintence and too much of a hassel for someone who’s as lazy as myself. Broads, on the other hand, are f****** easier to handle—literally.
In any case, at least Cedric Maxwell would enjoy that joke.
March 1st, 2007 at 4:52 pm
good stuff guys—remember the days when peons and kings couldn’t have such a debate—the internet has made a lot possible. Here’s news that will surely make your day. This was my official last post of all time…
March 1st, 2007 at 4:57 pm
Congrats SM. You win the pissing contest. You’ll realize when you get older that when people disagree with you……its no reflection on you as a person. Try not to take things so personally. Nobody really cares.
Whatever level of play or involvement someone has with the game of basketball is pretty much irrelevent don’t you think? John Clayton sure does know a lot about football………think he was a player, coach, or a scout.
Not a pissing contest.
March 1st, 2007 at 5:03 pm
“This was my official last post of all time… ”
Perfect!……..now back to tending our crops you peasant! You need to get that spring wheat planted!
How can the Kings around here afford their “broads” if you aren’t keeping the farm production up and can’t afford to pay their taxes?
Bah! We never should have put DSL lines in the peasant quarters. I knew production would fall off the map.
March 1st, 2007 at 5:10 pm
As someone who actually knows who SM is, the cracks about him being a ‘college kid’ or needing to ‘get older’ are fairly amusing.
I’m also going to chime in that it’s pretty piss poor of Scott to release any information in regards to the email and/or IP address.
Oh, and while I’d never say that Luke is an above average defender, I’d consider him about average…and much better than Ray or Rashard based on effort alone.
March 1st, 2007 at 5:23 pm
“As someone who actually knows who SM is, the cracks about him being a ‘college kid’ or needing to ‘get older’ are fairly amusing. ”
I don’t care if he’s Brandon Roy, Detlef Schrempf, Lenny Wilkens or the Pope of Beaux Arts Village.
Most people I know who move in “real basketball circles” (and yes I do know a few SM, it might surprise you, thank you very much) don’t go to great lengths crowing about who or how much they know and belittling people.
There are a ton of ways to disagree or show knowledge without playing the old “well I know _____ and you don’t” card, as if any of us could refute it anyhow. If he’s a name or knows a name, good for him. Arrogance is easy when it’s combined with anonymity.
March 1st, 2007 at 5:26 pm
With thousands of plays it is pretty hard to pin down an ability like lateral movement exactly by observation on some players in the middle. Slow to move laterally on x number of plays, fast enough on y number of plays. The balance is a memory and judgment call, unless you have watched all the tape closely and kept accurate score. I personally can’t decisively argue a specific evaluation of speed, strength, instincts, technique and say mine’s right on and your’s isnt. Folks disagree, hey that’s interesting, but it will never be settled without stopwatches and spreedsheets.
Following up on the distinction about above average vs passable defense that myk noted and the whether there is any stat at all that suggests Ridnour is an above average defender, I took a quick look first at his eFG% allowed. It is 47.2% this year and that seems pretty good. I wondered if it might be above average. So I went ahead and computed the average eFG% of the 70 guys listed at PG at espn and found it to be 47.6%. Just slightly above average but most would roundoff and call it average.
But for individual defense rating there are three main parts available: eFG% allowed, pts allowed and PER allowed. Ridnour is a tiny bit above average on eFG% allowed. He is as best I can quickly tell close to average on points allowed. He is below average on PER allowed. Put slightly above average or average on eFG% allowed depending on your preference with near average and below average and I can’t get to a statement of overall above average. But I can get to saying he is close to average on individual defense this season, better than many think based on his past.
Still defense is individual and team stats and team defense with him on court is no better than team average and it is in fact bad, about the 5th worse in the league.
SM, your positive view of Ridnour’s defense now is too strong for many. His overall defense has been worse than average most of his career. If Ridnour is to be called above average on defense by the numbers by many it will have to be based on what he does next year and beyond. This season is an improvement but not a clear above average one on D. I share these stats about the current season if any want to think about or use them. That’s the end of the line for me on this topic.
March 1st, 2007 at 5:26 pm
I got no beef with SM. I actually think he’s pretty funny. But if you have an abrasive style…..what do you expect? Don’t show up at the park talking trash if your gonna take your ball and go home when someone barks back.
March 1st, 2007 at 5:32 pm
Steve, what the hell does that have anything to do with what I wrote?
I pointed out he’s not a kid which a couple of posters stated after another of your administrators referenced his email and IP address. That’s piss poor form by the site and quite frankly that act should garner an apology.
March 1st, 2007 at 5:32 pm
TK, bringing it strong as usual.
March 1st, 2007 at 5:43 pm
College email and college IP hardly provide any information to anyone. Big whoop. Who cares.
FYI: I’ve got a hotmail account.
March 1st, 2007 at 5:43 pm
Perhaps SM’s IP address should not have been divulged. At the same time, SM didn’t really need to be so arrogant and continue to flaunt his alleged basketball connections. It was as if he was almost daring someone to try and figure out who he is to boost his own feelings of self-importance.
In any case, anyone who can make a statement that is so patently false that it galvanizes the regulars around here (i.e. the Luke is an above average defender statement) is doing something quite miraculous indeed.
March 1st, 2007 at 5:53 pm
In regards to the Luke defense hate fest…didn’t TK just provide some numbers that indicate that by at least one defensive metric, Luke is (by however small an amount) an above average defender?
Some of the other numbers indicated he was average or just below average but perhaps the thought that he is an ‘above average’ defensive player isn’t quite so preposterous.
The conventional wisdom is that he’s flat out horrible. The numbers seem to tell a different story.
March 1st, 2007 at 5:55 pm
Arrogance is fine as long as you realize that people (especially on this board) are going to disagree with you. After all I am the same person who had a 3 page debate on drafting Mo Sene…
…personally though I’d at least by passionate about a comment that you can find at least someone to back you up on…and don’t rely on your “inside basketball knowledge”…
March 1st, 2007 at 6:04 pm
that was some fun drama. now i’m over it. have to say though who cares that we know he has a college IP address. that doesn’t reveal diddly. the administrators are fine on this one. moving on, i’m just glad we are playing alright and got an other L to get us into the lottery….
March 1st, 2007 at 6:06 pm
“Perhaps SM’s IP address should not have been divulged.”
Just thought I’d point out that I never divulged anyone’s IP address, just merely stated that it originated from ‘a college’. For all any one who read that knows it could be from anywhere from Cornell to NYU, both IP addresses that have also been used here at one point or another.
Think it’s ‘piss poor’ on my part, oh well. I’ll never divulge anyones actual information. For what its worth I have a Gmail account….
March 1st, 2007 at 6:08 pm
Those are interesting numbers TK. Statistically he may not be as bad as people think. For the record again I’ve never knocked Ridnour for his effort. He tries. But physically its hard for him to do a lot defensively.
I think he can be taken off the dribble, or backed down into the paint by any starting PG in the league.
It really is moot whether he is bad or average or good IMO. As a team we don’t have anyone that is really that good. I even think Collison and Watson are overrated defensively.
March 1st, 2007 at 6:08 pm
“moving on, i’m just glad we are playing alright and got an other L to get us into the lottery….”
Scarily this is the direction I was going to try to move today’s conversation towards, but with the talk of ‘Above Average’ Luke Ridnour I never quite saw the right opportunity.
Not only are we not winning, but some of the teams below us have actually won a few of late.
March 1st, 2007 at 6:10 pm
“In regards to the Luke defense hate fest…didn’t TK just provide some numbers that indicate that by at least one defensive metric, Luke is (by however small an amount) an above average defender?”
One should also realize that in the number TK provided he viewed all 70 players listed at the PG position. Thus with 30 teams that is going to included, starters, backups and 3rd string PG’s. In doing so, he included many that will be impacted by small sample sizes and thus probably have some skewing affect on the overall average.
It would be interesting the see the figure for just starters and also for PG’s that average more than 20 minutes a game.
Would be interesting to see where Luke falls in that group. Maybe better? Maybe worse? Maybe more relevant?
March 1st, 2007 at 6:14 pm
“Not only are we not winning, but some of the teams below us have actually won a few of late. ”
What are we now? two games out of the #3 spot? Still 7 games from the top spot though and unless we get an injury to Ray or Rashard I’m not sure if we’ll catch either Boston or Memphis…..though Boston did get Pierce back, I know Danny Ainge isn’t going to be outtanked by any GM.
March 1st, 2007 at 6:16 pm
“But physically its hard for him to do a lot defensively.”
I think you could frame an arguement that given situations he’s got enough ability and drive to be at minimum an average defender, but given what we have on this roster I don’t see it. Now switch him with Tony Parker and I think his defense is a lot easier to hide. But when he’s in a lineup with Lewis, Allen and Wilcox there’s just no margin for error.
One thing I’ve consistently said about Luke is I don’t think there’s many players that work harder than he does. For the most part he doesn’t ever give up on plays and doesn’t make many mistakes. However, guys like Cassell have a tendancy to make young PG’s look bad at times, Sam certainly did last night.
March 1st, 2007 at 6:17 pm
That said, I think our draft future this year will end up relying on the luck of the lottery in order to get one of the top 3 spots.
March 1st, 2007 at 6:18 pm
I also know who SM is and he can (and he knows it) be an arrogant jerk when it comes to talking hoops. The guy does know the game but will not give up on the Ridnour debate. I’ve argued with him countless times on this same issue and he always says that he has watched so much film on Ridnour and never found him to be a poor defender. Anyways–we’ll see tonight–Go Sups!
March 1st, 2007 at 6:24 pm
“Sam certainly did last night.”
Sam is a Sonic killer. I wonder if the Clips….given Livingston’s injury and questionable future at this point, might consider a Watson for Cassell trade in the offseason? I believe their contracts match up after Cassels drops a bit next season and Earl’s increases a bit.
While not a great perimeter defender, Sam is the kind of veteran backup that could teach Luke alot, IMO, and could give some valuable minutes off the bench.
Watson would give the Clipps a guy who could start and play more minutes than “old Yeller Sam” could. Maybe not, but just a thought.
March 1st, 2007 at 6:25 pm
On choosing the most successful pace for the Sonics, somebody could calculate Sonics average offensive and defensive efficency actually playing high, medium and slow pace games. The efficiency numbers may vary for each pace so the average efficency ratings arent enough to make the decision. 82games presents w-l profiles of how the team does against teams with high, medium and slow average pace but that doesnt say what pace the game was actually played at. Maybe I’ll get to it later.
March 1st, 2007 at 6:27 pm
Playing against Luke, you don’t work on ‘D’ and you don’t work on ‘O’. You can post him, go around him, run on him, screen him, whatever. He is not a difference maker. His only talent is to sag to the key OR overplay the passing lanes.
Doubt many players fear the Pain from Blaine.
Dude is bunk. High pick wasted. No big. Stop wasting space.
Peace Arch,
cuffs
March 1st, 2007 at 6:40 pm
Ok, in response to frozenropers request I calculated the average eFG% for the top 30 PGs determined by number of shots taken (because I didnt have minutes in the table I was using). This top 30 shot an average of 48.3%. It is not apples to apples to the earlier numbers but there it is. The top 50 shoot 47.8%. The calculation for the top 70 was only slightly less so the tail of the distribution didnt have much impact compared to the top 50 calculation but it is somewhat worse than what we see for the top 30. I count 24 actual starters in that group.
There is a formula for estimating how much a player plays against starters vs subs but it is only a rough estimate and I wont mess with that because it varies for every player and rotation .
March 1st, 2007 at 6:53 pm
“Yet, that notwithstanding, I’ll always be the most crass guy here”–Way to go AK, I knew I could count on you. Keep it up!
“good stuff guys—remember the days when peons and kings couldn’t have such a debate—the internet has made a lot possible. Here’s news that will surely make your day. This was my official last post of all time…” Are we to infer from your statements that you view yourself as a king, and the rest of us as peons? Wow, I’m glad humility is not a problem your suffering with.
March 1st, 2007 at 7:58 pm
Actually I’m a little surprised so many took SM’s bait. Why bother responding when it’s so crystal clear that all he’s after is getting a rise from everyone. Most trolls like SM don’t have a clue about the topic at hand but rather use the tactic of throwing people off by getting them upset. I didn’t hear one thing from him that made me think that he has any basketball knowledge whatsover that’s above, or even on par with the people that frequent sonicscentral.
Anyways, I’d like to touch on a couple of points that have been mentioned. Brian Colangelo was hired roughly this time, or a little later than this last season by Toronto. By spending the last month or so of the season just analysing and getting a feel for the coaches and players, he was better prepared when it was time to inject his vision and philsophy into the Raptors. The only reason for Clay Bennett not putting a new GM in place right now is that he probably doesn’t yet know who he wants to lead this franchise into next season, plain and simple.
And I’ve been thinking a little about the draft. Take away Kevin Durant and it’s pretty much power forwards and centers that dominate the top 8 or so draft positions in the various mocks. Does Seattle want to once again trod down that road? The options are to draft insurance against Lewis bolting with Julian Wright or Corey Brewer, or trade down. Or perhaps both. Heck, if Portland could parlay Sebastian Telfair into Brandon Roy the anything’s possible.
March 1st, 2007 at 8:02 pm
“Are we to infer from your statements that you view yourself as a king, and the rest of us as peons? Wow, I’m glad humility is not a problem your suffering with.”
If SM is delusional enough to think that Ridnour is a good defender, then does it surprise you that he’d also be delusional enough to think of himself as a king?
Some people just like to take the contrary point of view on a subject just to push people’s buttons. Something tells me that his stance has as much to do with that as anything.
March 1st, 2007 at 8:30 pm
I won’t say much on the skirmish here other than often folks will dust off the day and start again next time, if they want to be here and talk ball reasonably.
I looked at the pace question and seems Sonics are about .500 playing at high pace and medium pace but only 1-12 playing slow pace. Some teams do pretty well to force that but the Sonics should try to avoid it or change and learn how do handle those games better. I was looking at offensive and defensive efficiency at these different pace but the numbers arent right yet so I decided w-l good enough for now.
March 1st, 2007 at 8:33 pm
So what is the difference in record due to the pace attributed to? My theories would be that it either is a result of A) a lack of a consistent post threat or B) the fact that the team is relatively young in general and younger teams seem to be less skilled and patient in the half court offense.
March 1st, 2007 at 8:39 pm
I’m here to support SM’s points on Ridnour. I’ve been mocked for this before, and will probably be again. But that’s ok.
SM said something very important that no one has been willing to take on: watch the tape. Well, I have, at least recently. I watch the games on TIVO, and have been watching recently very closely Ridnour’s defensive performance - - as in re-running the film, and watching how he handles opponents. His defensive work has been good. Very good, I think.
Above average? I don’t know. I’m not a stats master like TK. But, at least TK’s been willing to look at the actual statistical evidence. And, what he’s found has been pretty interesting. Not conclusive yet, but pretty interesting.
But, I haven’t seen anyone, other than SM, claim to have studied his performance in anything other than a casual way. Most everybody just seems to “know” he not good.
Well, if you look at the tapes from the last few games at least, there are a number of things that show up:
1. Very few times has he been beaten into the paint one on on by an opposing point guard. Significantly fewer than Earl. Go ahead. Count them.
2. He gets his hands on tons of balls - - principally from doubling down. He has been an incredibly disruptive presence. More so than anyone else on our side of the court. Again, go ahead. Count them.
3. He is the quickest (sometimes the only) player on the team to rotate to the open man on the perimiter. And, when he does, the player he rotates to almost always misses the shot - -because he runs under the shooter’s arms from the side and spooks the shot. I saw him do this 4 times in the space of 5 minutes late last week. Number of times any else on the team did it in that game? 0. Number of times the shot missed? 4.
4. He doesn’t appear to get as much help on pick and rolls as he should, and so has some trouble fighting through. But, he does not seem to have any more difficulty than any of the other point guards, either our side or the opponents.
5. For some reason, he desn’t get posted up very much - - which I don’t understand - - I have to believe that he could be.
But, don’t take my word or impressions on this. Watch the tape yourselves. With an open mind. And then debate SM.
Important note: I have not singled Luke out for special attention in the past. I only started doing so because I began to feel like his critics here were missing the boat. Having done so, I’m now even more convinced (and would like to point out the comparative + / - numbers for Luke and Earl over the last 5 games as just one of the best indicators - - the difference is simply staggering).
So, it may be that past criticism was once justified. Or, it may be that if you actually watched the tape and tried to keep track comparatively, you would disagree with my conclusions.
But, I think you are mostly wearing tinted glasses and seeing not his performance today, but your memory of his performance from 2 years ago. That memory may have been accurate (though I doubt it) once. But, from what I have seen, it isn’t accurate today.
March 1st, 2007 at 8:40 pm
C) A coach that doesn’t know how to design an effective half court set.
D) All of the above.
March 1st, 2007 at 9:17 pm
Alex Quante, I agree the factors you mentioned are involved and I found some more information about Sonics in low pace games: First off they are 4-10 in games where their own possessions are low instead of the 1-12 i orginally cited (but I’ll skip the explanation of why). They get pretty thoroughly beat in these games - lose on average by 12 pts, 5 total rebs (2 offensive) 1 turnover, 5 freethrows.
March 1st, 2007 at 9:26 pm
TK - that’s interesting stuff. It seems like the offense has definitely changed from how it was under Nate’s regime. It seems like Nate’s schemes (and the personnel we had at the time) was better suited for the halfcourt game. I recall their motto being “get it early or get it late”, which indicated to me that they had confidence in their halfcourt sets.
I have to also wonder if Dick’s point (regarding Hill’s sets) has something to do with it. While I don’t think think Hill draws up the most imaginative plays in the world, I also don’t think that there’s much that anyone can bring to the table that’s new in terms of drawing up plays. Most plays that are drawn up have something to picks and movement without the ball, pick and rolls, etc. Other than some unique flavor like the triangle offense, I think most offenses are pretty much the same in the halfcourt. I think the main difference is the talent of the personnel running the offense.
March 1st, 2007 at 9:35 pm
Guest I can see 2,3 and 5. The 82 games data suggests that your first point is a draw at least on counterpart inside shots but I dont know about total drives into the paint regardless of ending. i will watch that closer. On 4 I am not a expert on the pick n roll so I dont have a good sense of their actual game plan and how to breakout credit and blame but clearly it isnt just a PG issue.
style issues aside, SM’s strong take put the issue on the table for pretty detailed discussion. Many folks have watched it pretty closely and added their views on one side or the other or down the middle. Tinted glasses may affect the view, there is so much to take in and account for and each person will evaluate it differently.
March 1st, 2007 at 9:47 pm
IMO. The real issue with Ridnour is whether or not he is being offensively efficient and effective. Ridnour was not drafted for his defense but for his ability to help the offense. When he is playing well offensively and the team is playing well, we don’t care so much about his defense.
Anecdotally, Watson’s defense does not seem as good as it was last year’s.
March 1st, 2007 at 9:56 pm
I think you make a great point, Malaman. If Luke wasn’t so passive on offensive in terms of looking for his own shot, I suspect that his defensive fallacies would be forgiven a bit more. Look at someone like Nash, for example. I don’t see him as any sort of defensive stud, but his defense is rarely criticized because he brings so much on the offensive end.
March 1st, 2007 at 10:00 pm
Thanks, TK, for a quality response.
On the issue of getting beaten one on one, I’m not sure that statistical analysis is currently possible, as I doubt those stats are kept (at least publicly). But, someone could keep them over the next 5 games, just for yucks. If what I saw over the last 5 is consistent, Luke has significantly outperformed Earl on this measure.
Again, this may be a significant change from the past. I suspect that what I am seeing is both real, and real evidence of him growing his game.
March 1st, 2007 at 10:04 pm
Alex you raised some more excellent questions.
the 2006-2007 Sonics take 40% of shots in first 10 seconds, in 04-05 it was only 35% and they are shooting a little more efficiently on the quick plays.
% of shots in last 4 seconds down from 16% to 13% and also handle more efficently..
The 04-05 Sonics were actually better in the 11-15 second section of the clock even if their talk deempasized it. it hasnt change in frequency of use.
Surprisingly the Sonics as a whole are taking fewer jumpers and more inside shots now. The FG%s for the parts arent much different.
Sonics team eFG% actually went up but unfortunately the rest of the league on average got better faster (probably greater use of penetration and drawing fouls unde rthe new rules), dropping the Sonics offensive ranking . That appears to be part of the total change from then to now, separate from the better known slip in defense.
March 1st, 2007 at 10:26 pm
The PGs eFG% Agaisnt does not always show the whole picture. Since Luke allows so many drives into the lane the man he guards must be helped with by another Sonic leaving another man open for an easy basket
March 1st, 2007 at 10:28 pm
To be clear the rest of the league got better faster shooting against everyone. What they do against us is distinct, the defense issue.
In 04-05 Sonics were 5th best on team eFG% at 49.4%.Now at 49. 9% they are 12th. What once was rare is now common place 17 teams shoot as well as we did back then. Clearly a strategy of emphasizing quality jump shooters isnt creating as much edge as it did before the rule change. It seems to suggest that the strategy was slow to adjust and that play calling and execution needs further change and some of the players should change too.
March 1st, 2007 at 11:49 pm
“If what I saw over the last 5 is consistent, Luke has significantly outperformed Earl on this measure. ”
Unfortunately, that is not a very high standard to be exceeding as evident by visual and TK’s data.
March 2nd, 2007 at 12:55 am
Haha i just got back from the game. It was great and i got a pic with craig sager after the game! GO SONICS!
March 2nd, 2007 at 12:55 am
Haha i just got back from the game. It was great and i got a pic with craig sager after the game! GO SONICS!
March 2nd, 2007 at 8:55 am
““If what I saw over the last 5 is consistent, Luke has significantly outperformed Earl on this measure. ”
Unfortunately, that is not a very high standard to be exceeding as evident by visual and TK’s data.”
Also a fair comment. So, maybe we should be charting the video on opposing point guards over the next 5 games as well.
I suspect that such an exercise will show Luke’s game is afflicted by two primary weaknesses currently:
a. He is sacrificing the occasional outside jump shot to his man in favor of stopping the penetration. I think this is MUCH preferable to allowing the drives. And, from what I can see, its the rare PG who is good enough to reliably hit the shots Luke is surrendering - - 3’s, and shots from just inside the 3 line. So, I think this is good policy, and good defensive thinking. Others may disagree.
b. He isn’t driving and dishing near enough. So, his comparative effectiveness (and this is hinted at in TK’s stats) is lower than it would be if he were doing more penetration. This, I think, is why he is only an average PG (currently), not any supposed lack of defensive capacity. The big unknown for me is why this is happening (assuming that it really is, as I haven’t made a point of trying to study the question yet).
My suspicion is that its an issue of bad play calling from Hill, who has a tendency to think that offense consists of running Ray off a curl route so he can chuck up a fallaway 3. I suspect that if Luke were freed up to drive the ball, even in a half-court set, he would likely succeed. But, don’t know for sure.
In any event, a comparative performance study with opposing points — really looking at the tape — would be a good thing. Anyone up for it?
March 2nd, 2007 at 9:20 am
PGs aren’t driving on Luke?? Really??
March 2nd, 2007 at 2:00 pm
Guest a comparative tape study would add information. If you get it done I’d be interested in what it says. Small samples need to be handled with caution but it can sometimes sharpen understanding . At other times i’d join in, but not right now.