Daily Roundup 3.26.07
Posted on Monday, March 26th, 2007 at 9:06 am by Xteve
Talk about your action packed weekends.
I wasn’t able to attend the Touchdowns event in Renton this weekend due to a crazy ass weekend schedule that made those pissant knees-bent-running-about-son-of-a-silly-person-type-behavior-runarounds that rock stars and touring politicians do look like a Sunday picnic. 4 person dinner party, show at the little red hen, drink til early, get up after 5.5-6 hours of sleep, do 5K run in Mercer Island benefitting colon cancer research, take girlfriend shopping at Bell Square, go to pike place market for BBQ and chili cookoff, watch movie, go to bed, wake up for work, lather, rinse, repeat. It feels like I haven’t sat down since about 10:30 Saturday morning and next weekend is the same way. Parents of small children are free to not sympathize with me. 
It’s official. Ray Allen is out for the year, having surgery on both ankles.
“He saw the stuff we were talking about and he said he saw some other things in my ankle going on that needed to be addressed,” Allen said. “He also said he didn’t think it was prudent that I continue to play on it.”
Can I be the first to say great decision Ray! Okay, can I be second?
Ray also stumps for Hill in what is actually a very simple unvarnished look at what his perspective is on where this team is and where it needs to go. This is going to be a big pull quote but it’s kind of the heart of the story.
Though the Sonics have had three coaches in three years and Allen said he would like to see stability, he also said he understands if the team’s new ownership group wants to hire its own people.
“Rick (Sund, the team’s general manager) is in a tough situation with putting everything together in the summer because he really is at the mercy of ownership,” Allen said. “… You have to make those decisions based on what ownership wants and how they want to restructure and really put their imprint on what this team is going to be.
“We don’t know what (principal owner Clayton Bennett) means. His own people? Does that mean upper management? Does that mean coaching staff? Does that mean there are players that he likes? That could mean anything. From a player perspective, any time you go through a season and you don’t make the playoffs … you worry about the organization blowing the team up and moving in a different direction. It is hard to think about what they are going to do with any one of us because there has been so much uncertainty for the past two years here.”
With Allen, the team’s leading scorer, out and with the Sonics facing the most difficult schedule among the league’s also-rans, they are almost assured of a top-five pick in the amateur draft.
But unless the team gets one of the top two picks, Allen said he didn’t think another young player would help and he would prefer to use the pick to get a veteran.
“I want to be in a situation where we get better next year,” Allen said. “To get better we got to add somebody that has a veteran presence, in the 6-9, 6-10 range that can help our bigs out.
“I don’t know how we do that, if we trade the pick or whatever, but we have to get somebody off a team that has been winning or somebody who has been good for a long time in their career and knows how to play. Those are the type of people we need rather than draft picks.”
My only comment is Ray, y’all need both.
Locke blogs about the Danny Fortson sighting last night. . Danny’s looking a little bleary in that link, so he may not be immediately recognizable, but my experts tell me it’s all good. And besides, that background sure looks like it could be Auburn or something.
Damien Wilkins started in place of Allen on Sunday, but the real boost in playing time will be for Mickael Gelabale.
“It’s going to give Gelabale a chance to get on the floor and get some really important minutes,” coach Bob Hill said.
Cool! Finally a reason to watch!!!! Right, Bill? Bill … uh, Bill …
Mike Seely gets a teabag from TD
Too much great stuff in this version to point out just one headline, but the Jerramy Stevens story is pretty funny.
Jerry Brewer takes a page from Dave Grosby. Be careful next time you see Danny at practice. He has a mismatch in his shorts.
March 26th, 2007 at 10:05 am
I just read a rumor that Rick Carlisle might take the fall in Indy. He would be my #1 choice to replace Hill.
Jerry Brewer’s article makes perfect sense. But at this point it doesn’t really matter. If they were going to waive Danny, they should have done it immediately following the trade deadline.
If anyone reminds me of Derrick Mckey…..its Gelabale. He seems to float IMO……then he’ll come out of nowhere for a board/block/steal and show a flash of assertiveness. Compared to how he played to start the year…….he has become more aggressive.
Jeff Green from Georgetown has to be climbing the draft chart. Granted I’ve only watched him play twice this year, he looked pretty good. Even though he traveled to hit his game winner……..he has a great feel for the game IMO. His passing/ballhandling is what impresses me the most.
March 26th, 2007 at 10:16 am
So I’m starting the draft Jeff Green campaign. He could be a backup 3 or 4. He could also be a point forward for those of you who want one of those. Only a sophmore, he has tons of potential.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y8f1XLL2ILk
http://youtube.com/watch?v=nSgSuY_aJCM
travel….
http://youtube.com/watch?v=6e267jy4-DY
March 26th, 2007 at 10:23 am
Carlisle would be a very good candidate, Menace. That would be a very good option, agreed.
Green would be a solid pick in the 5-9 range. I also have Acie Law ranked higher than most and would consider him in the similar range if we don’t get a top 4 pick.
Glad to see Ray finally shutting it down. He needs to get that ankle fixed and be ready for next season. This should definately help us out on draft day and getting some of the younger players more PT.
March 26th, 2007 at 10:32 am
This line in the Durant article on Brushback had me cracking up.
“Upon hearing the news, Celtics GM Danny Ainge and Grizzlies GM Jerry West both followed Durant’s lead and retired from basketball for good.”
March 26th, 2007 at 10:36 am
Agree completely with Menace about Carlisle being a top choice for me if he becomes available.
Next Saturday’s games could make a ton of money for a couple guys. Oden and Hibbert are really going to be facing top candidates on the next level for the first time. If Hibbert can really put up a sold game against Ohio State and measures out what he’s listed at I can see him taking a huge jump up draft boards.
I really like what I see from Gelabale when he’s out there paired with Lew or Ray, when he’s out there without them he doesn’t have the offensive game to be effective enough to have the team be solid.
Wright and Horford are two guys I really like. I won’t be unhappy with either of them in Green and Gold.
March 26th, 2007 at 10:40 am
The Carlisle link
http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070326/COLUMNISTS01/703260390/1062/SPORTS04
March 26th, 2007 at 10:58 am
This is probably the best Daily Roundup by you Steve I’ve ever read. After last night’s game one needs a good laugh.
Never read Brushback before. Looks like it’s The Onion for the sports fans.
March 26th, 2007 at 11:04 am
- Carlisle would be a great coach for the Sonics…
- Normally I don’t support a player who has only really blown up in the NCAAs…however DWade could also be considered that type of player.
- I don’t understand the Brewer article. Why would waiving a guy and paying him anyway some how prove to young players they need to try. Wouldn’t you be more scared to see that the Sonics won’t cut you when you stop trying??
March 26th, 2007 at 11:09 am
Menace, I don’t like the idea of drafting Green.
I just don’t like tweener forwards and I’m not sure why you should invest top 5 or top 10 picks in a guy who could become Al Harrington or Shareef Abdur-Rahim type of player.
So i’d rather see us going for Acie Law(and therefore moving Luke or Earl this offseason), if we can’t get Oden, Durant, B. Wright, Noah or Horford.
BTW: That’s a nice pick of Danny. Was it him doing a workout? lol
March 26th, 2007 at 11:20 am
“Menace, I don’t like the idea of drafting Green.
I just don’t like tweener forwards and I’m not sure why you should invest top 5 or top 10 picks in a guy who could become Al Harrington or Shareef Abdur-Rahim type of player.”
I don’t see Green as a “tweener” forward. SF all the way and he can defend on the perimeter, something SAR has never dreamed about being able to do.
But that’s just my take on it.
March 26th, 2007 at 11:23 am
Silvio - I like Acie Law also. I’d be more than happy with him (as long as we don’t take him too high). I think its easier said than done to move Luke or Earl due to their salaries.
I think Green is a legit 3, and undersized 4. IMO Al Harrington or Shareef Abdur-Rahim would be pretty good players on our team right now.
Myk - You very well could be right. He could be the guy that makes his name in the tournament. I actually heard of Green about halfway through this season, but I’ve only watched him play twice. Maybe he’s just been under the radar.
http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/player/profile?playerId=22425
From what I can see, he’s been pretty consistent 12 pt 6 reb per game guy throughout his time at Georgetown. Not mindblowing numbers by any means…….but it at least shows some production prior to just the tourney.
March 26th, 2007 at 11:28 am
I really really like Jeff Green, but if he’s your pick, then you’re basically saying goodbye to Rashard and this team will be looking at another tough year ahead. Green isn’t a shooter at all so the entire offense would need to be contructed differently with him vs. Rashard.
Also, in no way can he contribute meaningful minutes at PF. And he’s a Jr.
The worst part about the Sonics right now is that they’re just good enough, that outside of Oden or Durant, there might not be anyone who would walk in day one and start on this team. There are a lot of players I like in this draft, but the team is already young and improving at the 4 and 5 and they have money tied up at the 1 and 2 and potentially a lot of money at the 3.
I don’t know how this offseason is going to shake out.
March 26th, 2007 at 11:36 am
“So i’d rather see us going for Acie Law(and therefore moving Luke or Earl this offseason), if we can’t get Oden, Durant, B. Wright, Noah or Horford”
I would probably take Law before Noah
I really don’t think he is going to be a great NBA player.
March 26th, 2007 at 11:38 am
The guy Jeff Green reminds me of a bit is Tim Thomas. If his range carries over to the NBA he’ll be a decent player but I don’t see superstar written all over him. He is definitely more a 3 than a 4.
March 26th, 2007 at 11:38 am
Acie Law, Al Horford, Jeff Green. All are players I like. Branden Wright most likely will be gone by the time Seattle selects.
But I’m also up for trading the pick if the price is right.
March 26th, 2007 at 11:48 am
- Shareef Abdur-Rahim…Al Harrington? Both are a bit overpriced right now but Shareef (in his prime) and Al (now) would be our third best player easily. Some would argue but I would say Shareef in his prime would give Rashard a huge run as our second best player.
If any of our draft picks NOT named Durant or Oden turns into Shareef or Al I’d be estatic.
March 26th, 2007 at 11:49 am
I posted a longer item on the Message Board…but is anyone getting sick of hearing that Kobe Bryant is the best player/scorer of all time?? Can MJ be forgotten so quickly??
March 26th, 2007 at 11:54 am
I’m not claiming Green can play 4. But I don’t think its out of the question to give him spot minutes there. He is athletic enough to play the position. At 235, same as Wilcox, its not like he’ll get completely overpowered. He does give up a couple of inches, but that doesn’t seem to hurt Collison. I think his future is at the 3…..but who knows.
March 26th, 2007 at 11:58 am
I wish/hope that people are going to start following the Phoenix model and play their 5 best players regardless of position…make the other team adjust to you.
March 26th, 2007 at 12:02 pm
Jeff Green is aight. He just seems a tad bit slow for the NBA game to me. Same problem goes for Hibbert.
My draft board goes like this if we can’t land the top 2 pick
N.1 - Acie Law IV. I know he somewhat choked in his last game but this guy is a dynamic scorer who is clutch. Take him under Ray’s arm and we might have a diamond in the rough.
N.2- Al Horford. Solid post player. Nuff said
N.3- Joakim Noah. Firey competitor, we need someone like that on our team. Coach Hill even said this group is too friendly and soft-spoken.
What really draws me to Noah is his winner mentality and all-out attitude.
N.4- Brandon Wright. Up until his last two games I’ve been unimpressive with the way he plays, but he is the best potential talent avalible at this point. He just seems to soft and lay-back for my taste.
N.5- Nick Young. Impressive tournament should springboard him up the draft board.
March 26th, 2007 at 12:06 pm
oh and as much as I hate Aaron Afflalo ruining my bracket. I’ll like to take him with our 2 second round picks.
Him and Glen Davis.
March 26th, 2007 at 12:07 pm
All I’m saying is that I don’t like tweener forwards and that Green looks like one to me.
I just don’t have a good feeling with those kind of players, as I think that not having a real position will mostly be a bad thing for a player.
Green will also have lots of problems if he’s forced to play the 3 spot, cause his jump shot is still shakey and his foot speed will cause him problems defending athletic SF’s.
“I would probably take Law before Noah
I really don’t think he is going to be a great NBA player. ”
Yeah, Noah will have some problems and will need quite some work(body and shooting mechanics). Though, I think his desire to become better won’t let him stop working as long as there’s something to get better at.
March 26th, 2007 at 12:16 pm
“Though, I think his desire to become better won’t let him stop working as long as there’s something to get better at. ”
IMO he is the exact same player he was last year (Physically and technically) so I’m really no sure about that point.
He really could have used this year in NCAA a lot better
March 26th, 2007 at 12:28 pm
I agree that Green is a little in between positions. But I think his basketball IQ and fundamentals can make up the difference in ideal size. He seems pretty quick to me.
He is listed at 6′8′ and 235. Wilcox is listed at 6′10′ and 235, Shard is listed at 6′10′ and 230. So its not a huge difference. Its not like he is a 6′4′/6′6′ college PF……it could be worse.
His jumper could use some work, but I think all the other skills are there.
March 26th, 2007 at 12:31 pm
“IMO he is the exact same player he was last year (Physically and technically) so I’m really no sure about that point.
He really could have used this year in NCAA a lot better ”
No, he’s gained some more muscle this past offseason.
Though he’s lost some due to his illness and at the start of the season. His thin shoulders also don’t help him all that much, cause he’ll never add enough muscle to move guys around.
The only thing I see, where he could’ve used this year in the NCAA better, is his shooting and his shooting mechanics. His shot still looks awful and he should’ve added a solid jump shot from mid range.
March 26th, 2007 at 12:36 pm
Noah has NBA role player written all over him. Thats not necessarily a bad thing……….but it would suck to use a high draft pick on a role player IMO. Not a good pick for a team like Seattle, but a decent pick for someone like PHX. I agree with Shawn, he hasn’t really shown any improvement to me.
I think he’ll always be fundamentally sound, a good defender, shot blocker, will run the floor, and be a great hustle player. Offensively? His mechanics are a little strange.
I think as long as you realize he isn’t going to be a franchise type player (more of a 4th or 5th guy), and are fine with that, he could be good for your team.
March 26th, 2007 at 1:02 pm
No interest in Noah as a Sonic … he’s too thin to play the power positions and not a good enough shooter to be a 3 man. I consider Noah to be similar to what Skita would have been like if he went to college. I think he will have some problems at the NBA level with his weird release. I agree with Menace that he’s more of a 4th or 5th guy; I don’t see him being a very effective offensive player in the NBA.
March 26th, 2007 at 1:13 pm
It’s not Joakim’s fault but I can’t stand that the french medias are talking about him like he was the next big thing only because his father is very popular in our country.
March 26th, 2007 at 1:19 pm
Glad to see Hill is more willing to play Forson than Sene. He could have gotten a good run at the end of that game. And what exactly is the point of playing Brown?
BTW, for a guy with no offensive skills, he shoots free throws better than Chris Wilcox.
March 26th, 2007 at 1:22 pm
I wouldn’t build a team around him by any means, but I’d glady take Noah on any team I was buidling.
As long as the team drafting him isn’t under the impression that he’ll come in and put up 15ppg, I think he’ll be a very effective NBA player. I was always a big Bo Outlaw fan, and I think Noah could be a better version of that type of player. At his peak, with the way he hustles after the ball and looks for rebounds, I don’t think 12/10 w/2 steals and 2 blocks is out of the question. You’d obviously need other scorers on that team, but Noah can be a very very important part of a winning organization.
March 26th, 2007 at 1:27 pm
Noah has NBA role player written all over him. Thats not necessarily a bad thing……….but it would suck to use a high draft pick on a role player IMO. Not a good pick for a team like Seattle, but a decent pick for someone like PHX. I agree with Shawn, he hasn’t really shown any improvement to me.
- For the people who believe that the roster as it is constructed now would be best suited to be a Phoenix style of ball…wouldn’t Noah be a perfect fit??
- Overall, I think we need to see how well a lot of these people measure. I’m usually not a big fan of the “combine”…but if Horford comes in at 6′6″ instead of 6′9″ as he is listed I am sure that will hurt his stock
March 26th, 2007 at 1:28 pm
I’d like to know how many of us believe in drafting for a need versus simply taking the best player available.
When you think that Robert Swift could come back next season and indeed prove he is a capable starter at center and will be able to nail 30+ minutes a game what does that do? Does that then leave Nick Collison competing with both Swift and Wilcox for minutes, or the other way around with Wilcox coming off the bench? Either way with Petro in the fold as well drafting a center or power forward just means once again crowding a position.
So you’re in the war room on draft day thinking about these possibilities. When Seattle’s number is called what do you do? Rick Sund has done it both ways by showing he’s not afraid of picking the same position consecutively. He also drafted for need the year he picked Collison and Ridnour. He tried to cover two positions the year he selected Radmanovic as insurance if they couldn’t re-sign Lewis as well as thinking Radmanovic could also playy power forward.
Do they have to make a trade or two on draft day to open up a position?
March 26th, 2007 at 1:30 pm
And does anyone else see Noah as an Anderson Varejo type?
March 26th, 2007 at 1:40 pm
“And does anyone else see Noah as an Anderson Varejo type? ”
A little bit but I think Noah has a better court vision and passing game.
The hair has a lot to do with the Varejao comparaison IMO
March 26th, 2007 at 1:47 pm
“And does anyone else see Noah as an Anderson Varejo type?”
That comparison has been made a number of times on this board and I think it is an appropriate comparison. Joakim’s game is very simliar to Varejao’s and as role players they are both very good and add considerable value to a team. As a top 5 or so pick, not so much what I’d call getting good value.
Another note on Jeff Green. He can defend on the perimeter, great passer and great basketball IQ, decent but not consistent outside shot. Rebounds well, handles the ball well……..
I guess I just don’t see where Green looks to be a SF/PF tweener. Usually, those players don’t have the athletic ability to guard out on the perimeter, where as, most reports I’ve seen mentions this as a strong trait for Green. Plus, he can handle the ball……..how many SF/PF tweeners can you say that about?
His one lacking skill appears to be consistency on his outside jumper……and its not that he doesn’t have one, he just isn’t very consistent from long range yet….which isn’t unusual for SF’s coming into the NBA. Maybe I haven’t watch enough of Georgetown’s games this season to know, but he sure seems like a true SF from everything I’ve read and from the few games I’ve watched…..
March 26th, 2007 at 1:54 pm
As of today, the following is my draft board.
1. C Greg Oden (7′0′” 250lbs.) {Ohio State} [Fr.]
I compare Oden to Patrick Ewing.
2. SF Kevin Durant (6′10″ 220lbs.) {Texas} [Fr.]
I compare Durant to Tracy McGrady.
3. PF Al Horford (6′9″ 245lbs.) {Florida} [Jr.]
I compare Horford to Carlos Boozer.
4. PF Brandan Wright (6′10″ 210lbs.) {North Carolina} [Fr.]
I compare Wright to Chris Bosh.
5. SG Chase Budinger (6′7″ 205lbs.) {Arizona} [Fr.]
I compare Budinger to Dan Majerle.
6. C Spencer Hawes (7′0″ 240lbs.) {Washington} [Fr.]
I compare Hawes to Brad Miller.
7. SF Al Thornton (6′8″ 220lbs.) {Florida State} [Sr.]
I compare Thornton to Al Harrington.
8. PG Darren Collison (6′1″ 165lbs.) {UCLA} [So.]
I compare Collison to Kevin Johnson.
9. PG Acie Law (6′3″ 185lbs.) {Texas A&M} [Sr.]
I compare Law to Chuancey Billups.
10. SF Corey Brewer (6′9″ 195lbs.) {Florida} [Jr.]
I compare Brewer to Tayshaun Prince.
11. PF Jeff Green (6′8″ 235 lbs.) {Georgetown} [Jr.]
I compare Jeff Green to Boris Diaw.
12. PF Joakim Noah (6′11″ 225lbs.) {Florida} [Jr.]
I compare Noah to Anderson Varejao.
13. PF Josh McRoberts (6′10″ 245lbs.) {Duke} [So.]
I compare McRoberts to Raef LaFrentz.
14. SG Nick Young (6′6″ 200lbs.) {Southern California} [Jr.]
I compare Young to Jamal Crawford.
15. SG Arron Afflalo (6′5″ 215lbs.) {UCLA} [Jr.]
I compare Afflalo to Raja Bell.
Obviously, I’ve got neither Yi Jianlian or Tiago Splitter on my draft board; that’s due to the fact that I don’t know enough about them to fairly judge their abilities. In addition, I don’t have large, lumbering post players like Aaron Gray, Roy Hibbert, and Hasheem Thabeet — or young, relatively unproven floor generals such as Mike Conley, Jr. and Ty Lawson — on my list for certain, yet legitimate reasons.
Anyway, it’s time for me to explain my dislike for Green.
All right, some of y’all tend to think that Green is more suited for a point forward type of position at the NBA level. Shockingly, I somewhat agree with those folks. Yet, a huge problem is that Green — along with Julian Wright, too, for that matter — has a set of skills that’s very similar to Boris Diaw.
With the way that the Seattle Supersonics’ roster is currently constructed, however, a point forward who mans the high post isn’t the sort of player that’s needed on this ballclub. Green wouldn’t fit the team’s offense — especially in lieu of Rashard Lewis — and, moreover, would be a defensive liability.
That’s just my opinion, though.
March 26th, 2007 at 1:57 pm
“And does anyone else see Noah as an Anderson Varejo type? ”
A little bit but I think Noah has a better court vision and passing game.
The hair has a lot to do with the Varejao comparaison IMO
- I will go out on a limb and say that if Noah and Varejao did not have similar hair that not one person would ever compare the two. Noah may not be a superstar but he is much more talented than Varejao…this is like how everyone has to compare white players only with other white players.
March 26th, 2007 at 2:03 pm
Hmmm…gotta disagree with some of AKs comparisons:
5. SG Chase Budinger (6′7″ 205lbs.) {Arizona} [Fr.]
I compare Budinger to Dan Majerle.
- Just think this is too high for him. He doesn’t play defense and when I watched Arizona games I was never just wow’d by his performances. Needs another year or two of seasoning.
8. PG Darren Collison (6′1″ 165lbs.) {UCLA} [So.]
I compare Collison to Kevin Johnson.
- This is the one I disagree with the most. First, I don’t think that he is all the great. However, to compare him with the athletic KJ just doesn’t fit with me. I doubt we will see two of Darren Collison dunks on the NBA all time greatest dunks show like we did with KJ.
With the way that the Seattle Supersonics’ roster is currently constructed, however, a point forward who mans the high post isn’t the sort of player that’s needed on this ballclub. Green wouldn’t fit the team’s offense — especially in lieu of Rashard Lewis — and, moreover, would be a defensive liability.
- So this is really the part that I found interesting. Being that our primary offensive sets for most of the years have comprised of Chris Wilcox hanging out at the high post while Rashard posts up…wouldn’t Green be a PERFECT fit? Not that I agree with this offensive strategy what so ever (in fact I think it is the number one reason why we are an average team…) but if you’ve got a coach who wants the PF to play high post I’d rather have a guy like Green than Wilcox…
March 26th, 2007 at 2:09 pm
Why did the Seattle Supersonics sign Andre Brown for the remainder of the season after the end of his second ten-day contract?
Instead of having a scrub like Brown on the ballclub, I’d've rather seen that roster spot used to bring back Shawn Kemp for one last run with his original team. That, in conjuction with a trade whereby the Supersonics dealt Earl Watson and Damien Wilkins to the Miami Heat for James Posey and Gary Payton, would’ve been a public relations boon for the entire franchise.
Hell, the thought of releasing Danny Fortson and, in turn, bringing back Vin Baker back from the depths of the unknown by signing him to a couple of back-to-back ten-day contracts also entertained me. Of course, that was just another crazy idea devised in my devious mind.
It’d've been entertaining to watch Kemp and Baker play alongside one another in the frontcourt during blowouts, though.
Lastly, I’m still saddened that the roster wasn’t blown-up at the trade deadline last month in the manner that’s explained within the following link.
http://tinyurl.com/yrd76e
Alas, that’s no longer a possibility.
March 26th, 2007 at 2:10 pm
“- I will go out on a limb and say that if Noah and Varejao did not have similar hair that not one person would ever compare the two. ”
I’d disagree. Anyone who has watched Varejao and Noah play, regardless of whether one was yellow and the other one green, would recognize that they have very similar skill sets and games.
Both high effort PF’s who are great on the glass, play solid post defense, very emotional players, neither can shoot outside of 6 feet. Noah, I think is a better passer, but other than that their games are essentially mirror images of one another.
March 26th, 2007 at 2:11 pm
Unless we are talking about the 1st or 2nd pick, I would like to see the Sonics trade the pick and aquire a very good scoring 6th man type player.
I would also like to see them trade the 1st second round pick along with Watson to Chicago for Chris Duhon. I doubt Chicago would go for that - maybe though.
Also, Andres Nocioni appears to be a free agent - is there no chance he could come to Seattle if we lose Rashard?
March 26th, 2007 at 2:12 pm
“Also, Andres Nocioni appears to be a free agent - is there no chance he could come to Seattle if we lose Rashard? ”
I believe he’s a RFA, so to get him the Sonics would probably have to orchestrate some sort of S&T with the Bulls.
March 26th, 2007 at 2:14 pm
“I would like to see the Sonics trade the pick and aquire a very good scoring 6th man type player.”
I felt like crap already, but reading this made me puke.
If we deal the third pick in the draft for a 6th man I make take a plunge off the Alaskan Way Viaduct on my way home from work one day.
March 26th, 2007 at 2:17 pm
RE: Noah
“For the people who believe that the roster as it is constructed now would be best suited to be a Phoenix style of ball…wouldn’t Noah be a perfect fit??”
Good point. I was actually trying to say that Noah would be better off with a team that already has its core pieces which he could complement. A team like PHX comes to mind, because he wouldn’t come in as a high draft pick and have to be the man. I think he is more of a complementary player, and Seattle needs more of an impact player (if thats possible).
Noah’s release is strange. Why as a right handed player would you ever shoot from the left side of your body? He also has sort of a sideways follow through. Its just strange to me. Whatever works I guess.
March 26th, 2007 at 2:20 pm
“Instead of having a scrub like Brown on the ballclub, I’d’ve rather seen that roster spot used to bring back Shawn Kemp for one last run with his original team. That, in conjuction with a trade whereby the Supersonics dealt Earl Watson and Damien Wilkins to the Miami Heat for James Posey and Gary Payton, would’ve been a public relations boon for the entire franchise.”
Kemp has to stay clean for longer than a couple of weeks before anyone in their right mind would give him a job. I was all for giving him a shot as an 11th man too, but if he can’t stay out of trouble it has the potential to go horribly wrong.
March 26th, 2007 at 2:26 pm
“I would also like to see them trade the 1st second round pick along with Watson to Chicago for Chris Duhon. I doubt Chicago would go for that - maybe though.”
FROM CHICAGO & TO SEATTLE
PG Chris Duhon ($3,248,000)
SF Viktor Khryapa ($1,928,598)
FROM SEATTLE & TO CHICAGO
PG Earl Watson ($5,800,000)
2007 Second-Round Draft Pick (Via The Memphis Grizzlies)
In all likelihood, John Paxson wouldn’t agree to that deal.
March 26th, 2007 at 2:28 pm
“A team like PHX comes to mind, because he wouldn’t come in as a high draft pick and have to be the man. I think he is more of a complementary player, and Seattle needs more of an impact player (if thats possible).”
Why would you take a player like that with the 5th or 6th pick in the draft though…it isn’t like Noah is a shotblocker or a true center. If he truly is more of a Varejao type then he should be picked accordingly … low 1st round, not top 10.
“Noah’s release is strange. Why as a right handed player would you ever shoot from the left side of your body? He also has sort of a sideways follow through. Its just strange to me. Whatever works I guess. ”
It won’t work in the pros, which is why I think Noah’s offense is going to take a hit. He’s too skinny to post up the 6′10 250 lb guys…the only way is if he works on some kind of fadeaway shot. I think with that release he is going to get blocked or stripped of the ball on a great deal of attempts as he faces up, since he’s bringing the ball closer to a right handed defender’s strong side.
Noah could have some success as a garbageman type player, somewhat like Tyson Chandler was with the Bulls and kind of what Nick does here. He won’t get any plays called for him but if he is active around the basket he can probably average 6 and 6 his rookie year just living off of tip-ins and putbacks.
March 26th, 2007 at 2:29 pm
Both high effort PF’s who are great on the glass, play solid post defense, very emotional players, neither can shoot outside of 6 feet. Noah, I think is a better passer, but other than that their games are essentially mirror images of one another.
- Why can’t that same comparison be said that Noah is similar to Reggie Evans? David Lee? The current version of Ben Wallace? Andris Biedrins?
C’mon…to say that their hair has nothing to do with the equation seems a bit odd. I know this isn’t the best judge do you really think that all of the NBA talent evaluators would say that one guy had #1 pick potential when his similar player wasn’t even a second round pick.
Looking at stats I think Noah and Biedrins look pretty similar…
March 26th, 2007 at 2:30 pm
“Kemp has to stay clean for longer than a couple of weeks before anyone in their right mind would give him a job. I was all for giving him a shot as an 11th man too, but if he can’t stay out of trouble it has the potential to go horribly wrong.”
As long as the franchise could sell more tickets with the arrival of Shawn Kemp, I’d happily handle the possibility of him being a strung-out drug addict.
I’d be willing to deal with a frequently inebriated Vin Baker, too.
March 26th, 2007 at 2:33 pm
Now that IS going out on a limb MYK. Honestly, when I asked the question about the Noah/Varejo comparison, I never had one single thought about the hair. Until you mentioned it it was a non issue for me.
And while it didn’t make me sick like Scott(you must have a weak stomach), I would only contemplate trading the pick if it was for an imapct player that could contribute immediately, not someone coming off the bench. And I would qualify it further that the pick would have to be below the top five before it made sense because the whole idea would be to get a player to help right away and not have to wait on a prospect for two or three years. The top picks in this years draft are capable of stepping in right away I think.
March 26th, 2007 at 2:37 pm
- Why can’t that same comparison be said that Noah is similar to Reggie Evans? David Lee? The current version of Ben Wallace? Andris Biedrins?
Okay, Myk, Joakim Noah won’t be as offensively efficient as either Andris Biedrins, David Lee, or Tyson Chandler. Next, Reggie Evans is a strong, bulky power forward who’s only true skill is pounding the glass and collecting rebounds at an amazing rate; thus, there’s no way that anyone can realistically compare him and Noah to each other. Lastly, Ben Wallace is a more proficient shot blocker, versatile athlete, and man-to-man defender than Noah. All things considered, Anderson Varejao is Noah’s closest comparison.
March 26th, 2007 at 2:40 pm
“I felt like crap already, but reading this made me puke.
If we deal the third pick in the draft for a 6th man I make take a plunge off the Alaskan Way Viaduct on my way home from work one day.”
Maybe I oversold it. But the point is I think the Sonics need to either trade the pick or trade some of the young players for a proven high quality NBA player. Most of the players mentioned are young to begin with - that is not what the Sonics need. I just wonder if they are likely to make a decent impact in the first few years. If we could get several good players for that 1 pick it would be worth it. Otherwise we keep getting younger. Also, there is always a risk in drafts that the player does not pan out - getting an established player may be worth the risk.
These are the players I like: Maggette, Childress, Pachulia, Tyson Chandler (awesome rebounder but is paid a lot) Nenad Kristic, Mike Miller and Nocioni.
March 26th, 2007 at 2:41 pm
“As long as the franchise could sell more tickets with the arrival of Shawn Kemp, I’d happily handle the possibility of him being a strung-out drug addict.
I’d be willing to deal with a frequently inebriated Vin Baker, too. ”
Sure you would. You’re not the one cutting big checks to a couple of career f***ups.
It’s a fine plan until Kemp gets busted on Aurora Avenue at 3 AM buying crack. Then nobody comes to see him, because he’ll be suspended.
I’m going to assume your Baker comment is a joke, because I would far rather give a guy like Andre Brown the money and the chance over a loser like Baker, because he’ll put the work in. Nobody worries about Andre Brown blowing off practices because he was so hung over from partying at Rick’s the night before.
March 26th, 2007 at 2:47 pm
“So this is really the part that I found interesting. Being that our primary offensive sets for most of the years have comprised of Chris Wilcox hanging out at the high post while Rashard posts up…wouldn’t Green be a PERFECT fit? Not that I agree with this offensive strategy what so ever (in fact I think it is the number one reason why we are an average team…) but if you’ve got a coach who wants the PF to play high post I’d rather have a guy like Green than Wilcox.”
In all honesty, I’d rather have a tandem of Spencer Hawes and Nick Collison than Jeff Green and Collison. For whatever reason, I have a feeling that the duo of Hawes stationed at the high post and Collison stationed at the low post would be a successful setup for the Seattle Supersonics. Plus, Collison defensive fortitude ought to offset Hawes’ deficiencies on that end of the court.
Yet, it should be noted that the selection of Hawes would mean that Chris Wilcox would have to be dealt elsewhere. With Robert Swift set to receive playing time behind Collison next season, the Supersonics would need to deal Wilcox and, as a result, acquire a player who’s skills adequately mesh with Swift off of the bench.
Additionally, I’ve recently proposed a deal whereby Johan Petro and Mouhamed Sene are dealt to the Los Angeles Clippers — as is noted within the following link — hence, a complete overhaul of the frontcourt is something that I want done to the roster.
http://sonicscentral.com/blog/?p=1171
Well, I’ll probably get flamed here for kind of supporting Hawes.
March 26th, 2007 at 2:51 pm
“Sure you would. You’re not the one cutting big checks to a couple of career f***ups.
It’s a fine plan until Kemp gets busted on Aurora Avenue at 3 AM buying crack. Then nobody comes to see him, because he’ll be suspended.
I’m going to assume your Baker comment is a joke, because I would far rather give a guy like Andre Brown the money and the chance over a loser like Baker, because he’ll put the work in. Nobody worries about Andre Brown blowing off practices because he was so hung over from partying at Rick’s the night before.”
If I had millions upon millions of dollars, then I’d gladly pay a small amount of chump change for those scenerios. Besides, I’d have to give Vin Baker credit for going to Rick’s rather than Déjà Vu.
March 26th, 2007 at 2:54 pm
“- Why can’t that same comparison be said that Noah is similar to Reggie Evans? David Lee? The current version of Ben Wallace? Andris Biedrins?”
You can say Noah compares to all of the above, but there are also more differences between each of those players you list and Noah…..and when comparing Varejao and Noah…..and tall, skinny build does go into the equation….where as all the players you mention are short, squat post players that are undersized height wise.
So I guess if you think a short squat PF/C, is a good comparable for a tall skinny PF/C, then feel free to compare away……hair or no hair.
March 26th, 2007 at 3:02 pm
“You can say Noah compares to all of the above, but there are also more differences between each of those players you list and Noah…..and when comparing Varejao and Noah…..and tall, skinny build does go into the equation….where as all the players you mention are short, squat post players that are undersized height wise.”
Neither Andris Biedrins (6′11″ 245lbs.), David Lee (6′9″ 249lbs.), or Ben Wallace (6′9″ 240lbs.) are short, squat post players. In fact, all of them are moderately sized guys regarding their respective builds.
Yet, Frozenropers, you’re correct that none of them are thin, lanky guys like Joakim Noah.
March 26th, 2007 at 3:05 pm
“Okay, Myk, Joakim Noah won’t be as offensively efficient as either Andris Biedrins, David Lee, or Tyson Chandler. Next, Reggie Evans is a strong, bulky power forward who’s only true skill is pounding the glass and collecting rebounds at an amazing rate; thus, there’s no way that anyone can realistically compare him and Noah to each other. Lastly, Ben Wallace is a more proficient shot blocker, versatile athlete, and man-to-man defender than Noah. All things considered, Anderson Varejao is Noah’s closest comparison. ”
I think AK, sums it up very well here………although I’ll have to quantify that I think AK is nuts in his other post wanting to bring back Kemp and Baker. Talk about a waste of time…they’d be better of canceling the rest of the season. ;o)
March 26th, 2007 at 3:10 pm
For the purposes of selling tickets, I would go one step further and sign Kemp to a basement level deal. This team needs to get people in the city excited. Shawn Kemp, even as the 12th man, would bring some level of interest back with the team. For whatever reason, this city hasn’t really embraced Ray Allen and Rashard Lewis. As evidenced by the reaction that Kemp received at the 40 greatest ceremony, it’s obvious that this city still loves the guy.
I’m also of the opinion that the guy is making a genuine effort to turn his life around. Fighting that addiction is probably an ongoing struggle for the guy and if he is successful in persevering through it, that is something to be admired.
March 26th, 2007 at 3:11 pm
“Neither Andris Biedrins (6′11″ 245lbs.), David Lee (6′9″ 249lbs.), or Ben Wallace (6′9″ 240lbs.) are short, squat post players. In fact, all of them are moderately sized guys regarding their respective builds.”
Yeah, Biedrins really wasn’t who I was thinking about when making that comment. He’s more the tall skinny type.
Wallace looks short playing in the post (at least when he doesn’t have his hair in a 12 inch fro), but he’s built like a brick sh*thouse……..I haven’t watched alot of Lee but coming into the league he was viewed as an undersized PF, if I remember correctly and he’s built pretty strong…not tall and skinny like Noah…….hence the reference to being shorter post players.
March 26th, 2007 at 3:14 pm
If Sonics management decides to draft a big man (PF, C) in this year’s draft, they have to make a determination as to whether Wilcox will ever claim his potential. In my opinion, when Wilcox plays with desire, his potential exceeds that of Horford, Noah, and the rest of the big men not named Greg Oden that will be available in this year’s draft.
If Green develops a reasonable three-point jump shot, I’d compare him more to Lamar Odom. Green seems like a more physical player than Diaw. But I agree with the argument that Green is not really a good fit for this team, considering the way that the roster has been constructed.
March 26th, 2007 at 3:19 pm
“Wallace looks short playing in the post (at least when he doesn’t have his hair in a 12 inch fro), but he’s built like a brick sh*thouse……..I haven’t watched alot of Lee but coming into the league he was viewed as an undersized PF, if I remember correctly and he’s built pretty strong…not tall and skinny like Noah…….hence the reference to being shorter post players.”
Well, I guess my idea of “short, squat post players” includes the likes of Reggie Evans, Danny Fortson, Chuck Hayes, Paul Millsap, Craig Smith, Michael Sweetney, et al.
March 26th, 2007 at 3:27 pm
“Well, I guess my idea of “short, squat post players” includes the likes of Reggie Evans, Danny Fortson, Chuck Hayes, Paul Millsap, Craig Smith, Michael Sweetney, et al. ”
I’d agree with those…..for some reason Wallace has always looked short to me when I see him playing. Maybe its just because he’s usually standing next to or guarding a 6′11″ or 7′ center.
March 26th, 2007 at 3:28 pm
Neither Andris Biedrins (6′11″ 245lbs.), David Lee (6′9″ 249lbs.), or Ben Wallace (6′9″ 240lbs.) are short, squat post players. In fact, all of them are moderately sized guys regarding their respective builds.
- Biedrins is listed at 6′11″ 245lbs and Anderson Varerjao is listed as 6′10″ 240lbs. They are exaclty the same size. How can Noah look like one and not the other??
- Please explain to me why Biedrins, Lee and Chandler are offensively efficient….and Noah won’t be? This is just based on pure speculation…
— Biedrins and Chandler are horrible FT shooters and Noah shot 73% last year so he appears to have more of an outside shot than either of them.
— Noah has put up comprabale numbers to Lee as a Sophomore and Junior when Lee was a Senior…
March 26th, 2007 at 3:33 pm
“If Green develops a reasonable three-point jump shot, I’d compare him more to Lamar Odom. Green seems like a more physical player than Diaw. But I agree with the argument that Green is not really a good fit for this team, considering the way that the roster has been constructed.”
Dude, Alex, you’re really underselling Lamar Odom’s natural talents. As it is, Odom is the only player in the entire NBA who’s capable of sufficiently playing all five positions.
Luckily for Odom, he’s playing for the Los Angeles Lakers. Due to the triangle offense that Phil Jackson runs there, Odom’s playmaking skills are being fully utilized to its maximum abilities.
As much as I like Odom, however, I think that Mitch Kupchak should offer him, Kwame Brown, and Andrew Bynum to the Minnesota Timberwolves for Kevin Garnett. As far as I’m concerned, Garnett would perfectly compliment Kobe Bryant and, in all reality, could be the guy who helps lead the Lakers back to the promise land.
Also, Kupchak should attempt to deal Vladimir Radmanovic and the team’s 2007 first-round draft pick to the Sacrameto Kings for John Salmons — who’d be the perfect backup to Luke Walton — yet, I doubt that Geoff Petrie is stupid enough to make such a move.
March 26th, 2007 at 3:34 pm
“- Biedrins is listed at 6′11″ 245lbs and Anderson Varerjao is listed as 6′10″ 240lbs. They are exaclty the same size. How can Noah look like one and not the other?? ”
I don’t think anyone ever said he didn’t “physically” compare to Biedrins……Biendrins was put in a list of players that he doesn’t compare to (Wallace, Evans, Lee) physically…..so maybe that’s confused things a bit.
Biendrins could be a decent comparison for Noah, however I haven’t seen him play nearly as much as I’ve seen Varejao play, thus I haven’t brought him up.
That said, until I see another player that I think more closely resembles Noah’s game, Varejao will continue to be the player I mention as who I think he is MOST comparable to.
March 26th, 2007 at 3:37 pm
“— Noah has put up comprabale numbers to Lee as a Sophomore and Junior when Lee was a Senior…”
For reference, just because players put up similar numbers on a stat sheet, doesn’t necessarily mean they have similar games or skill sets.
March 26th, 2007 at 3:39 pm
I thought we should have explored the idea of bringing back Kemp too. I’ve posted this before. Its Kemp playing fairly recently in Houston. This past summer I believe. He obviously a shadow of what he once was……but he doesn’t look that bad. I’d be willing to bet he could outplay Petro or Andre Brown. Possibly even Wilcox!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ymsk4Nn2aTE
Even when he had gained the weight in Cleveland, Kemp was able to still put up OK numbers using veteran tricks, up and under moves, and fadeaways. I think those are things he could teach our youngsters.
The drug issue is completely seperate. Sure the guy has slipped numberous times. Didn’t we just honor Spencer Haywood? He was notororious for being one of the biggest users to ever play in the NBA. I think it would be unfair to use “off the court” issues as an excuse from a team perspective.
March 26th, 2007 at 3:49 pm
“Biedrins is listed at 6′11″ 245lbs and Anderson Varerjao is listed as 6′10″ 240lbs. They are exaclty the same size. How can Noah look like one and not the other??”
In my opinion, Andris Biedrins is more of a true center than Anderson Varejao. Furthermore, Biedrins rebounding prowess (9.8 rebounds per game; 15.6 rebounds per 40 minutes) is based more on strength and fortitude — à la someone such as Jeff Foster (8.2 rebounds per game; 16.7 rebounds per 40 minutes) — than the high-energy effort and vigorous diligence that’s put forth by Varejao.
Ergo, Joakim Noah is to Varejao as Foster is to Biedrins.
“Please explain to me why Biedrins, Lee and Chandler are offensively efficient….and Noah won’t be? This is just based on pure speculation…”
Yes, it’s based mostly on the speculation that I don’t think that Joakim Noah’s shooting style will successfuly translate to the next level. Indeed, Noah will be lucky to shoot 50% as an interior player in the NBA.
“Biedrins and Chandler are horrible FT shooters and Noah shot 73% last year so he appears to have more of an outside shot than either of them.”
Regarding free-throw shooting, Noah is hitting 66.7% of his attempts from the charity stripe this season. Undeniably, Noah also sucks from the free-throw line.
All right, those are my standpoints.
March 26th, 2007 at 3:52 pm
“Nobody worries about Andre Brown blowing off practices because he was so hung over from partying at Rick’s the night before.”
LOL I saw Andre Brown the other night at Jillion’s.
March 26th, 2007 at 3:53 pm
I’m actually a huge fan of Lamar Odom. I think he’s a better player than Rashard Lewis. However, I think Odom’s time in the NBA, much like Lewis’s stint in Seattle, has shown that he is incapable of being the #1 option on a winning team. If I were Minnesota, I would much rather have obtained Luol Deng, Tyrus Thomas, their first round pick this year and their expiring contracts for Garnett rather than Odom, Brown, and Bynum.
March 26th, 2007 at 4:01 pm
For reference, just because players put up similar numbers on a stat sheet, doesn’t necessarily mean they have similar games or skill sets.
- Really? I have to disagree with you on that in some parts. If a couple of guys have basically put up the exact same numbers for two seasons in a row that would make them pretty similar to me. Maybe Lee isn’t as “energetic” and Noah but they both bring similar skills to the table. Except Noah appears to be slightly more atheletic (based on his shot blocking and steal numbers).
- Look I’m not trying to defend Noah and say he is going to be some sort of All-Star. However, to say that his best comparison is a guy who averages 7pts and 7 rebounds and really has very little basketball skills…just doesn’t make sense to me. Noah appears to me as a guy who will get you 12-14ppg and 9-10rpg while playing decent defense.
March 26th, 2007 at 4:14 pm
Actually, Garnett is more of an all-5 player than Odom. Odom has never played center to my knowledge and while he can handle the ball like a PG, he can’t score off the dribble or off the screen, and SG’s need at least one if not both of those skills.
Garnett has actually played each position at some point in time. He’s started at both forward spots depending on who he was paired with and filled in at center during games. He had to back Cassell up at the PG a few yrs ago in the playoffs and yes, back in ‘99 when Peeler was unavailable, started a game at SG and had a triple double.
March 26th, 2007 at 4:27 pm
“Noah appears to me as a guy who will get you 12-14ppg and 9-10rpg while playing decent defense. ”
Maybe 4-5 years down the road, no way will he do that out of the gate. The guy weighs like 50 lbs less than everyone else at his position in the NBA right now.
March 26th, 2007 at 4:35 pm
“[Joakim Noah] weighs like 50 lbs less than everyone else at his position in the NBA right now.
There’s the exact reason that Joakim Noah’s peak is Marcus Camby and his cellar is Keon Clark.
March 26th, 2007 at 4:40 pm
“There’s the exact reason that Joakim Noah’s peak is Marcus Camby and his cellar is Keon Clark. ”
I agree with the general premise that weight will be a problem for him early on, although Camby was a much better prospect than Noah IMO. Camby was far more polished offensively and had good shotblocking instincts at UMass. He was actually probably one of the more fully developed bigs to come out of college before TD showed up. Noah’s not quite there yet. I could see Noah having a Keon Clark type career.
March 26th, 2007 at 4:55 pm
“- Really? I have to disagree with you on that in some parts.”
I think the “some parts” is where we are not agreeing. Three players, similar career averages…..yet I don’t think I’d call their games “similar”.
PT/RB/AST/BLK
Player A:
20.3/10.3/2.6/2.1
Player B:
21.9/11.9/3.2/2.5
Player C
18.6/10.1/2.0/1.3
Player A is Elton Brand
Player B is Tim Duncan
Player C is Shawn Marion
So to circle this back around to the Noah discussion. Players can put up similar stats, yet not do it with all that similar skill sets or physical attributes.
Yes, Noah, may share some similar skill sets as those other players you want to mention (yes, they may all be known as good rebounders or some may block shots), however the player he shares the most common skill set and physical attributes to in the NBA today in Anderson Varejao, IMO. And no, I don’t think that because they both share the original Rasta Man’s (Brian Grant) hair style. ;o)
March 26th, 2007 at 6:44 pm
Team Re-engineering.
A few points for you to consider and comment on:
1. This team will not compete for a championship next year - - no matter what is done to it. We should not try to re-structure it in anticipation of competing next year. That would be a forlorn hope.
2. The team may be low level playoff caliber next year. But not unless the play orientation is significantly changed.
For most of the year, the play focus was on Ray and Rashard, in that order. If the team continues in that vein, regardless of the supporting cast that is acquired, it will be a marginal hope for the playoffs.
3. The reason for this is that Ray is an amazingly skilled, but unidimensional, player. By virtue of his skill and dedication, he demands to be the focus of the team.
He is an outside shooter, without a willingness to take it to the basket. He is not a reliable distributor (see his many 5 turnover games this year). He is a mediocre defender at best.
With these limitations, a successful team cannot have him as the focus of the offense. He needs to be the second or third option - - preferably the third… I do not believe that he would be willing to be eclipsed by the players on this roster. And, I do not believe that we can acquire someone good enough to force him to take a supporting role.
4. By contrast, Rashard is NOT a unidimensional player. He can play 3 or 4, and match up effectively against both types of players. He has both a post up and a long range game which are superb. After another summer of practicing as a point guard, he will probably be a real scoring threat off the dribble drive as well.
5. There are very few 3 or 4s out there who can do what Rashard does. He is not unique. But, he is a rarer player than is Ray, I believe. The team MUST sign him. He is a great citizen, and wants to be here. (cont. in next post)
March 26th, 2007 at 7:09 pm
6. Our bigs are actually pretty ok, and getting better. They are young. They are growing and improving. They need to take the next step forward this coming summer.
Wilcox has shown he can be very effective offensively, if given the opportunity. He can also board, if properly motivated. If he can learn to work on defense, he would emerge as the break-out player that the front office envisioned. I think he can, and will.
I also believe that Swift and Petro will grow into their roles quite well in the next 2 years also. Collison’s growth this year can, I think, be looked forward to as a marker for the other bigs as well, assuming they are willing to work over the summer.
I recognize that there may be some doubts about Wilcox and Petro’s willingness to do that work. I would not give up on them at this stage. Now, next year, if they show no progress, that would be a different story. But I would not blow the whole thing up now. One year is too quick, especially given the signs of progress we have seen.
As for Sene, I’m not sure what to think, except that Swift was equally nowhere after the end of his first year. Too early to conclude anything.
7. Aside from Oden, I don’t see a big improvement from the bigs available in the draft over what we have on the roster currently. Maybe Horford, though I can’t keep his father’s image out of my mind when I think about him.
The notion of a veteran big to replace the Fortson vacuum and coach from the bench sounds good to me if the right fit is out there. I’m not sure it is.
It would be nice to have the problem of figuring out how to rearrange the team for Oden.
8. Wilkins should go. He really doesn’t contribute much. I agree that Gelabale has a greater upside. It may be the way Wilkins has been used, but he’s not a good fit here, I think.
9. No point guards likely to available on the market or in the draft will be a significant upgrade over what we have, especially if what we have was properly used. Acie Law is at least 2 years away from being a productive contributor, and maybe 4. We don’t benefit much from going in that direction.
10. So, what are the holes on the team? A. Veteran big (Fortson replacement). B. Back-up shooting guard / shooting forward. C. Solution to the unidimensional Ray problem. (cont. in next post)
March 26th, 2007 at 7:28 pm
11. Ray should go. We won’t compete in a serious way next year anyway, and he is arguably our most valuable piece. His departure would not be particularly popular, as was the case with Payton’s departure. But moving Payton was smart, and moving Ray would be too. Its the right thing to do.
We should be able to get a top quality young shooting guard in return, along with a veteran big to fill the Fortson gap.
12. Gelabale should be our backup 2. He has the talent. He just needs work on the long range shooting. That can be cured with work this summer. He’s the perfect fit here.
13. But, a back up on the 3 spot is where the action is. Here’s why. We will draft high enough to pick up a really good 3 - - someone who can defend and score. He will be blocked with Rashard, you say? No! We can go small, with Rashard pushing over to the 4. So there are probably 24 minutes available for that 3. Pretty good for rookie time.
14. As for the point, I don’t like Earl’s game. I’m not impressed with his defense. I don’t think he plays smart. I’d move him for a bigger backup point. But, if the new coach is convinced he will adapt and play smart, we could keep him without too much harm.
15. But, the number one change is that we need a coach who will build a better system - - one that uses Wilcox on offense consistently, that builds around an effective penetration / pick and roll attack, and that gets ball movement going.
How many times have we seen the point stand still dribbling at the top of the key until Ray runs a curl route with 7 seconds left? No movement off the ball; no movement with the ball.
Do any of the league’s good teams play like that?
That has to stop. Penetration and ball movement has to happen. It happened all the time under Nate. It doesn’t any longer. Why?
This is a coaching issue far more than a personnel issue. We need a change.
March 26th, 2007 at 8:01 pm
Maybe 4-5 years down the road, no way will he do that out of the gate. The guy weighs like 50 lbs less than everyone else at his position in the NBA right now.
- Well unless Noah’s measurements are completely different he is only 10lbs lighter than Bierdins. He is the EXACT SAME SIZE as what Wilcox is listed. So, unless he measures completely different (which may happen, but we can only make judgments on what we know) I find this argument pretty funny.
I think the “some parts” is where we are not agreeing. Three players, similar career averages…..yet I don’t think I’d call their games “similar”.
- You consider those numbers similar?? Those numbers are close but i wouldn’t call them similar. I understand the point you are trying to make, but it would also help if you use players who are also similar in position and size. As say Noah and Lee were…you are even luckier because they played the same position, at the same schoool, in the same system with the same coach.
March 26th, 2007 at 8:08 pm
guest…here is my feedback on just a few of your moves:
3. The reason for this is that Ray is an amazingly skilled, but unidimensional, player. By virtue of his skill and dedication, he demands to be the focus of the team.
He is an outside shooter, without a willingness to take it to the basket. He is not a reliable distributor (see his many 5 turnover games this year). He is a mediocre defender at best.
11. Ray should go. We won’t compete in a serious way next year anyway, and he is arguably our most valuable piece. His departure would not be particularly popular, as was the case with Payton’s departure. But moving Payton was smart, and moving Ray would be too. Its the right thing to do.
We should be able to get a top quality young shooting guard in return, along with a veteran big to fill the Fortson gap.
How many times have we seen the point stand still dribbling at the top of the key until Ray runs a curl route with 7 seconds left? No movement off the ball; no movement with the ball.
- Here are your comments about Ray. First he is a unidimensional player who cannot lead his team to success. When you say demands I really hope you are not saying that he literally “demands” this but instead his performance demands that his a key player.
However, after calling him out you then suggest that we trade him for a top quality young SG, AND a veteran big man. So, a team (any team) is going to trade away such a package for a player who you just said above is really not a difference maker. He should be a 3rd option on a team. Please show me a team who would complete such a trade. Trade a promising young player and a verteran big man (which are pretty big deals in the NBA) for a 3rd option.
Finally, you discuss the offense…people keep calling out Ray for shooting too much and then as you just explained our horrible offense basically sets him up where he gets the ball in his hands with limited time on the shot clock for him to do anything. There is no evidence that this guy is not willing to defer to players. Rashard’s scoring has gone up every year he has been on the team with Ray. Ray played in Milwaukee for years with the Big Three who all seemed to coexist.
None of this makes sense.
March 26th, 2007 at 8:13 pm
Next one…
4. By contrast, Rashard is NOT a unidimensional player. He can play 3 or 4, and match up effectively against both types of players. He has both a post up and a long range game which are superb. After another summer of practicing as a point guard, he will probably be a real scoring threat off the dribble drive as well.
- Rashard can play the 4?? How often have we seen that be effective? How often have we see this even tried in the game? I’ve been calling for it for years and it never seems to happen…I wonder why. On the other hand Ray does drive to the hoop…he makes more FTs a game than Rashard shoots a game. Rashard is basically having a career year this year and he still has not shown any ability to carry his team. If anyone has the 3rd scorer mentality it is him.
Of course, everyone who supports Lewis always talks about how he will learn to be a better ball handler this year…every year he is supposed to learn how to dribble. At what point in his career do we finally accept that the guy will never be a good dribbler??
March 26th, 2007 at 8:21 pm
Hey again Guest. Your 15 points include many I broadly agree with. I will focus on the few areas where I’d cast a different view or add a modifier:
4. Lewis is not unidimensional but it remains a topic for study and debate how dominant he can be, especially without Ray.
It is easier for Lewis to win the SF matchup than Ray to win the SG matchup because of lower average quality there in the league (lower than any other position except Center) but you reframe it #1 star vs #1 star I am not as confident that Lewis would win 50% or more of those battles. What you get back for Allen greatly matters. It probably wont be a #1 scorer but it should be something that enhances Lewis/Wilcox if they are kept as nucleus to build around.
6. Taken as a PF/C group our bigs are pretty not ok in production this year.By NBA efficiency our PF was 22nd of 3o and Center was dead last. Next season is a new dawn with Swift at some point and some level of maturation and development but do we get to 15th best ok level or stay below? I’d guess we are more likely to still be below without a significant player addition/subtraction.
March 26th, 2007 at 8:34 pm
8. Wilkins isnt great but he seems like an ok 8th man and would trading him would be a low priority to me to deal with but I sam still open to to it if it brought back something more useful and that will take some work. I could see him fitting ok with a lesser starting SG than Allen if he is traded.
I will wholeheartedly agree though about 15. PGs going inside. Sonics on low end of that in the league and most good teams are above average on PG pentration
Myk 82games has Lewis at PF about 25% of his time this season way up from 10% last season. But this may be off or misleading.
March 26th, 2007 at 8:46 pm
As for who would take Allen and for much that is a huge question. Among playoff teams Utah, Toronto and Orlando need him most but I cant see any deal getting done with them. But any move is probably almost a year or more away and not a strong likelihood though I am open to it. I’d have done it 2-9 months ago.
March 26th, 2007 at 8:48 pm
Well, Rashard Lewis has given up an opponent efficiency rating of +20.8 when playing power forward this season. The thought of Lewis defending opposing power forwards on a regular basis makes my stomach churn with acidic juices.
Additionally, Lewis has proven that he’ll always be an awful ball-handler and playmaker. Furthermore, Lewis’ inability to create or pass out of a double team will prevent him from ever becoming a viable first option on a winning team. Lastly, Lewis averages a paltry 2.6 assists per game — while Ray Allen averages 4.1 assists per game — which indicates that he doesn’t constantly defer to his teammates.
At this rate, though, you’ll get the chance to watch this franchise fail miserably throughout the remainder of the season with Lewis and Chris Wilcox as the team’s top two options. In any event, Lewis would be best served as the third option on a good team.
As is shown below this paragraph, I propsed that exact thing last month.
“The Seattle Supersonics sign Lewis to a six-year, $81,000,000 contract (2007-2008: $11,000,000; 2008-2009: $12,000,000; 2009-2010: $13,000,000; 2010-2011: $14,000,000; 2011-2012: $15,000,000; 2012-2013: $16,000,000) — which includes an early termination option that he can exercise after the fourth season — and, in turn, trade him to the Houston Rockets (i.e., Lewis’ hometown team).
FROM HOUSTON & TO SEATTLE
SF Shane Battier ($5,883,600)
SG Bob Sura ($3,840,000; $1,000,000 Guaranteed)
SG Luther Head ($1,122,000)
Cash Considerations ($1,000,000)
FROM SEATTLE & TO HOUSTON
SF Rashard Lewis ($11,000,000)
Although the duo of Shane Battier and Luther Head aren’t equal in value to Lewis, it might be the best deal that the Seattle Supersonics could make considering the circumstances. Bob Sura, by the way, would be included in the transaction for nothing more than salary cap purposes. All things considered, the aforementioned sign-and-trade proposal is better than the possibility that Lewis decides to sign elsewhere (e.g., the Charlotte Bobcats); that’d thereby leave the Supersonics with absolutely nothing in return for him.”
http://tinyurl.com/2okdre
With Yao Ming and Tracy McGrady playing with him, Lewis would benefit by being expected to be nothing more than a jump shooting threat and occasional option on the low block. Besides, Lewis might do well for himself by returning to his hometown.
Anyway, I won’t get started on the idiocy behind believing that Wilcox will develop into a prime-time player. Instead, I’ll just state that Wilcox supporters are a moronic group of people.
March 26th, 2007 at 8:56 pm
Thinking about it a little further an Allen trade seems like it might be most feasible if it is mutli-team and probably in the summer when more capspace is available and teams have more flexibillity. So I’d guess the Allen trade talk probably will wait til next summer, post Lewis decision, post surgery recovery, post finding out of we are playoff competitive next year (or will be 08-09) or not. Summer 2008 might be next real window to trade him, if whoever is making that call wants to.
(sorry for the various typos)
March 26th, 2007 at 9:10 pm
Head and Battier would probably improve defense but how much they change offense is harder to say. The scoring, rebounding and assists rates on paper seem lower than the players they’d replace on court net but in a new situation they would likely have a different performance level, though unknown how much it might increase.Sund could very well ask for a draft pick too and reduce chances at agreement. Morey, would he make getting Lewis his first big independent splash as GM? I am skeptical but he hasnt a clear track record yet. Was getting Battier a lot based on his input or not? I cant tell.
March 26th, 2007 at 9:40 pm
If it is any consolation the Spurs are blowing out GSW by 40 right now. They are picking them apart. 7:11 to go 114 to 74.
March 26th, 2007 at 10:21 pm
- You consider those numbers similar?? Those numbers are close but i wouldn’t call them similar. ”
Yes, I do, especially Duncan and Brand’s numbers. Amazing the difference in their playing styles, yet how similar their career numbers are.
We’ll just have to agree to disagree, because from everything I’ve watched Noah’s closest comp in the NBA is Anderson Verajao……..and we don’t even have to include their rasta man hair styles to come to that conclusion.
March 26th, 2007 at 10:28 pm
“Of course, everyone who supports Lewis always talks about how he will learn to be a better ball handler this year…every year he is supposed to learn how to dribble. At what point in his career do we finally accept that the guy will never be a good dribbler?? ”
I gotta agee with you here Myk….I don’t ever see Rashard being a fluid ball handler and being able to create his own or teammates shots on a regular basis. Ray and Rashard, even more so, need a PG who can penetrate and create opportunities for them. Draw the defense in and allow them to spot up for the open jumpers. That PG also has to have a strong enough personality, where he doesn’t always defer to Ray Allen.
The Sonics had that player in 2004/2005 in Antonio Daniels. They need to find a similar complimentary PG this offseason.
March 26th, 2007 at 10:47 pm
I think you are selling Lewis Short by saying he is not a good dribbler.
The ONE THING Lewis impressed me this year is his immensely improved ball handling skills.
If you have been following his career, you can see he is alot more comfortable bringing the ball up. Haven’t you noticed his quick right to left through the legs cross-over???
He was given the ball at the top of the circle with time running out and more than the past, he has been able to get to his desired location with his ball handling.
March 26th, 2007 at 10:57 pm
“He was given the ball at the top of the circle with time running out and more than the past, he has been able to get to his desired location with his ball handling. ”
Yeah, I watched the Washington game. He got the ball at the top of the key and made a couple, not real fluid looking, moves and ended up getting it blocked by Ruffin at bucket as he went up rather awkwardly.
I’ll admit he’s getting a little better, but considering how bad he was at handling the ball before, that’s not saying alot. Rashard has limitations to his game……one very big one is being able to creat his own shots. He’s gotten a little better this season, but its still not something that he looks natural or very fluid doing.
Thus, the best scenario is to match him up with a PG who can create and get him the ball in the positions where he can take advantage of his skill set the best.
March 26th, 2007 at 11:27 pm
- I think we can all just leave the draft player comparisons to rest for awhile. Since all we are going on is pure speculation it is just one person’s opinion vs. another…but I am quite confident Noah will have a much better career tha Varaejo
As for the 16 step plan…
It is easier for Lewis to win the SF matchup than Ray to win the SG matchup because of lower average quality there in the league (lower than any other position except Center) but you reframe it #1 star vs #1 star I am not as confident that Lewis would win 50% or more of those battles. What you get back for Allen greatly matters. It probably wont be a #1 scorer but it should be something that enhances Lewis/Wilcox if they are kept as nucleus to build around.
- Im not sure I understand this point at all. If I am reading it right we are saying that Lewis would be more valuable because he is better than most SFs while Allen is not better than as many SGs? I guess I have to quibbles with this logic:
1) I don’t believe that Ray Allen does not provide you with a match-up advantage against more than 5 SGs in the league…but that is more personal opinion I guess.
2) Well since Lewis is ALREADY better than most SFs and we still suck even with a good SG (which we would downgrade if we made a trade) I don’t see how this logic can be used to prove anything.
- I know the last week I have come off as a strong Allen apologist and I really don’t think I am. To me he is our best player and he has been put in a really bad situaton by the team and especially by our coach.
1) Since he is the star he will always get an unreasonable amount of blame for the team’s performance. Unlike most I think he handles it very professionally. To be the #1 player on your team you need to have a strong personality and I don’t think anyone else on this team comes close.
2) Our coach with his completely inept offense designs plays that has our entire team sitting around and doing nothing. Finally, with 5 seconds to go on the shot clock Ray is given the ball and basically told to be superman. Amazingly enough he isn’t always successful. I’d like to see any team be successful this way. Look at the Lakers they have basically done the same thing for the last few games and Kobe has scored 50pts…and they’ve beat really bad teams by 2 or 3 points. Its just not how offense is to be run.
3) Finally, and I think most importantly…I am getting a real feeling that some of the people who don’t like Ray are starting to paint his as some selfish over the hill star who is dominating the ball because he needs to get his stats. This just amazes me…the guy has basically done everything he can for this franchise in the last three years and people are turning on him. There has been no leaks about him being a selfish individual behind the scenes (a’la Gary at the end…), with the season over the guy is out there playing with bad ankles just because he wants his team to win so bad.
So please, criticize Ray for his defense…criticize Ray for trying too hard…but don’t criticize him for being some selfish superstar.
Myk 82games has Lewis at PF about 25% of his time this season way up from 10% last season. But this may be off or misleading.
- When I tried to use those stats on 82 games to prove that Petro rarely played PF I was told that the only way they judge position is by height. If that is the case all it means is that 25% of the time he was on the court as the 4th tallest Sonic. It appears that he has even played a little Center for a brief time.
I don’t know what to make of the stats because their must be some sort of sorting done because if it is truly only by height than Nick would show minutes played at SF…since in our starting line up he is only the third tallest guy.
I’ve suggested running a team (it was better with Ray) of Ridnour, Allen, Gelabale, Lewis and Wilcox…but I can’t remember ever seeing prolonged minutes where Lewis was required to D up on a PF type. Sure he has been able to do it against teams like GST and PHO but that is because they play undersized guys himself.
March 26th, 2007 at 11:38 pm
- Should be noted that both Ray and Rashard rank 7th at their position in PER
- Ray does have a higher Roland Rating…
March 27th, 2007 at 12:22 am
Who are the top six at SF and SG?
March 27th, 2007 at 12:23 am
Keep in minds that statistics can only tell you so much about a player. Who would you rather have shooting two free throws when your team is down one between Dwayne Wade or Dirk Nowitzki? The statistics say Dirk. The NBA finals of last year said otherwise.
March 27th, 2007 at 12:27 am
Also overall rankings: Allen (24)…Lewis (30)
Top 6 SGs:
Wade - 30.05
Bryant - 26.34
Ginobili - 24.29
McGrady - 22.99
Redd - 22.37
Pierce - 21.74
Allen - 21.66
Top 6 SFs:
James - 24.70
McGrady - 22.99
Redd - 22.37
Anthony - 22.05
Pierce - 21.74
Carter - 21.23
Lewis - 20.92
Looks like there are some interchangability between the two lists. Guess it is up to the viewer to decide if Lewis would go up or Allen would go up against the same people ahead of them.
March 27th, 2007 at 12:28 am
Keep in minds that statistics can only tell you so much about a player. Who would you rather have shooting two free throws when your team is down one between Dwayne Wade or Dirk Nowitzki? The statistics say Dirk. The NBA finals of last year said otherwise.
- So you’d make a decision based on 6 games?? Seems like small sample size…
March 27th, 2007 at 1:06 am
Aren’t you defined as a player in the NBA from your performances in the biggest games? Dirk’s skillset would make any person blush and I admit that he has much more talent than Dwayne Wade. However, no matter how Cuban wants to spin the NBA finals, he cannot deny that when it was time to seize the moment, Dirk hid from the bright lights while Dwayne made history.
Look again at Wade’s numbers during the NBA finals. Those numbers are comparable if not better than many of Jordan’s performances in his six NBA final appearances.
March 27th, 2007 at 7:13 am
“but I am quite confident Noah will have a much better career tha Varaejo”
Don’t forget……its not like Varejao has reached his peak or is old…..he’s only 24 and in his 3rd season in the league. He’s got plenty of time to improve on his game too….
March 27th, 2007 at 7:19 am
“If that is the case all it means is that 25% of the time he was on the court as the 4th tallest Sonic. ”
2nd tallest, is what I think you mean. That would make him the PF by default based on those standards at 82games. Center obviously being the tallest player on the court by their standards.
You point should be well taken though.
March 27th, 2007 at 8:14 am
MYK, you’re not alone in thinking that some people see Ray Allen in the wrong light. I’ll agree 100% that he should put more effort into his defense. And I agree that at times he forces shots rather than look for a teamate to pass to. But I think anyone would be hard pressed to find a top shooting guard that doesn’t take more than his share of shots and sometimes doesn’t use the best discretion. Ray Allen certainly isn’t unique in that department.
In a different forum(realgm) the question was put out to fans of all teams about Ray Allen, Rashard Lewis, and the Sonics pick, and what Seattle could get for them. Some things that stood out was that it would be difficult to get similar value back for Allen. A team leader, and one who can be the teams top scorer just wasn’t there in return. If you want to get a pretty good package of two or three players that are a notch below his skills then perhaps.
The sign and trade proposals for Lewis were subpar(Ricky Davis and Randy Foye) and really wouldn’t make the Sonics any better, just the other team.
And trade proposals for the draft pick were downright silly(Ron Artest was suggested if you can believe it).
So my personal feeling is that the club stick with Ray because 1) they need an experienced leader and scorer, and2) they aren’t going to get anything in return that will make the Sonics a better team. I feel that they might be best to take heed of what he said the other day and surround him with a couple of proven players that compliment him.
A pointguard upgrade that can play better defense on the outside and stop penetration while at the same time being a threat himself driving to the hoop so Ray’s check has to sag off to help, thus giving Allen better looks and also take some of the scoring pressure off him. I guess you call that a lead guard. I know it’s not that easy to find that type of player, but that’s the ideal sidekick for ray.
And although I do like Rashards game and it’s obvious what him and Allen do for the team as the one two punch, I feel that a player with a more all around game such as a Nocioni or Wallace might be a better fit beside him. Even a Kirilenko type. That’s why I think jeff Green might be a good pick. He’s like a Brandon Roy in that he doesn’t standout or excel at any one thing and sometimes you don’t notice him, but he can do alot of things well.
March 27th, 2007 at 8:20 am
One other thing I noticed in an article today. It talked about how the Sonics were trying out some different basketballs for the league to see which ones they liked best(all the teams are doing the same).
The interesting thing was that Mike Wilks is the Sonics player association rep and he was the spokesperson. It just struck me a little odd that it wouldn’t be one of the core players that was the union rep for the players.
March 27th, 2007 at 8:33 am
For the record, I was not calling Ray out. He seems like an admirable human being, and is a great shooter. He has played quite courageously through his injuries. No one can fault him for his competitiveness or effort.
But, I see unidimensional contributions from him, and forecast an inability (or unwillingness, with the current set of players) to make a significant alteration to his game that would involve more deference to teammates in the offense. I’d be delighted to see him prove my assessment wrong.
It is his skill set, not his personality, that is the issue.
Note, however, that he has demanded a bigger share of the offense at times in the past. And, I do not remember the changes that followed his requests reliably working to the team’s advantage.
Acutally, my recollection is that his demand earlier this year for more of the offense came during our best stretch (not that there was much of a “best” out there), and shortly after the offense was pushed more in his direction, we hit a tail spin. TK will likely prove this recollection apocraphal, however.
March 27th, 2007 at 9:38 am
I don’t know if it’s a good example or not, but I’ll point to Allan Iverson being traded to Denver.
All his Philly years he was the main go to guy. The years when the Sixers were a top team and went to the finals it was a team built around his scoring and he was surrounded by role playing veterans that complimented him. After that group was dismantled they tried going the route of younger players, but although Iverson still got his points, the pieces never translated to wins. They even tried to bring in another offensive star in Webber, but it didn’t work.
Since going to Denver Iverson seems to have realized that he once again has solid players around him he can trust to share the scoring load and has become more of a team first player than I think I can ever recall from him.
My point is that there could be similarities between the two(both are the same age or close I think) if the right players were around Ray Allen. He’s already stated recently that he felt the team needed some experienced players. Perhaps if he had those players he might feel that he could count on the experience of veterans and wouldn’t feel the need to always have the ball in his hands and try to shoulder the load, rather just fit into the team concept a little more.
I’m not sure it’s a fair comaprison or not, but I can see the possibilities if Seattle surrounded Ray with some different pieces.
March 27th, 2007 at 10:06 am
But, I see unidimensional contributions from him, and forecast an inability (or unwillingness, with the current set of players) to make a significant alteration to his game that would involve more deference to teammates in the offense. I’d be delighted to see him prove my assessment wrong.
- I still don’t see why or how you can prove this…other than it being your own personal opinion. It is pure speculation. His PER was lower in 04-05, which leads me to believe that when the team was being successful he was willing to defer to other players. Perhaps, he (like many other people) see lack of talent around…like I said he is probably trying too hard.
March 27th, 2007 at 10:07 am
My point is that there could be similarities between the two(both are the same age or close I think) if the right players were around Ray Allen. He’s already stated recently that he felt the team needed some experienced players. Perhaps if he had those players he might feel that he could count on the experience of veterans and wouldn’t feel the need to always have the ball in his hands and try to shoulder the load, rather just fit into the team concept a little more.
- I agree with this completely…100%
March 27th, 2007 at 10:27 am
82games starts by lining players up by height but I’ve assumed they reality tweak it some. They do pretty intelligent work there. But they wont reveal the lists though I and others have asked them to publish them and get fan feedback to correct any departures from reality.
So as I tried to indicate, take their position stuff and the performance splits with a shaker of salt. I may not always remember to add that disclaimer when I use this stuff but it is there and warranted.
March 27th, 2007 at 10:46 am
I can’t read Ray Allen ’s personality from afar to exactly get right whether he is just trying too hard or somewhat selfish. It is clear he is an elite offensive player, has been basically his whole life and approaches the game with that expectation and responsibility. I guess he is a superstar by some measures but he doesnt have superstar team results. Others get a lot of public and media scrutiny for that lack of sufficent team success. Some may wrestle with that and may be doing all they can to discover the right path for change though it is not apparent with most of them oon the surface. I think Allen hadnt gotten as much attention and heat for team results as many other team leaders, at least here in Seattle, til this year. I think it is a fair topic but hard to pin down the answer. Regardless of the answer he is the leader til the modest chance it changes. Even if I am not optimistic of greater success in the future with him, I’d still take him over half to 2/3rds of the max paid players in the league all things considered. Though the success shortfall it is about both leadership and rest of team, a lot of the shortcoming is in the rest of team and 04-05 showed that it was possible to find a “pretty good” winning mix with Allen. Though that group probably fulfilled its potential and probably wasnt championship contending level.
March 27th, 2007 at 11:17 am
On Guest’s prompt about Allen’s vs team results, Allen’s big individual month was January and Sonics were 4-10 - but without Lewis so that doesnt move the discussion. March was set up to be a better test case and they seemed close to .500 until last few games made it Allen’s worst month and shut him down.
05-06 Allen’s best month was April, Sonics went 6-4. Allen’s worst month and highest shooting attempt month was Dec., Sonics went 7-8.
04-05 His 2nd best month was Nov. Sonics went 13-3 . It was also 2nd lowest shooting attempt month as a Sonic. Which mattered more or was it the combo that increased its power? His best month and highest shooting attempts on that season was April and Sonics went 3-8.
I wont try for a sweeping conclusion from these results. Lots of things are involved and ebb and flow. Simple answers are often not that strong but you do have to look and try to sort it out.
March 27th, 2007 at 11:19 am
March 05 was arguably Allen’s worst month that season but Sonics went 11-6. Maybe Allen is only 20-30% of the W-L loss story.
March 27th, 2007 at 11:30 am
At most. The scattered results might suggest his offensive surges and slumps may matter even less or at least arent certain to induce a certain team result. Defense is still a big reason for a large share of the losses. Looking at points scored and point given up the offense looks like what 45-50 win teams average, the defense looks like a 25 win for the season team.
March 27th, 2007 at 11:33 am
It’s funny how Noah’s hair causes people to compare him to Varejao. I was thinking Brian Grant myself. Whoever takes him, I think he’ll be a rock solid pick. What if we traded down and somehow landed both Acie Law (1st round) and Afflolo?
I also like the idea of Rick Carlisle as a leading head coach candidate. Hopefully Silas and a few guys who should have been interviewed before the Weiss/Hill era will get a shot too.
March 27th, 2007 at 11:37 am
“Others get a lot of public and media scrutiny for that lack of sufficent team success. … I think Allen hadnt gotten as much attention and heat for team results as many other team leaders, at least here in Seattle, til this year. I think it is a fair topic but hard to pin down the answer. ”
TK, can you expand on that a little bit? Who are the ones that come to mind for you?
The only one I can think of off the top of my head who got “heat”, so to speak of, for lack of team success, was Kobe and that was primarily because the perception was that he drove Shaq out of town. Others I associate with lack of team success, the Garnetts, Pierces, etc. seem to mainly get sympathy. “Poor Kevin. He wants to win so bad but he has no help.” “Poor Paul. He’s a great player but his team is so young.” …
March 27th, 2007 at 11:56 am
Carter got some heat in Toronto and some in NJ. But it seems the heat didnt help and with hi spersonality it seems to stay mild or go away.
McGrady got some heat at the end in Orlando and may feel some again in Houston dependiong on how this playoff ruin turns out.
Bibby and B Davis catch heat. Peja and Webber caught heat. J ONeal catches plenty of heat. Gasol some and probably should get more. Barkley back in the day.
March 27th, 2007 at 12:02 pm
At most. The scattered results might suggest his offensive surges and slumps may matter even less or at least arent certain to induce a certain team result. Defense is still a big reason for a large share of the losses. Looking at points scored and point given up the offense looks like what 45-50 win teams average, the defense looks like a 25 win for the season team.
- The scattered results might also suggest that when the other players step it up he is willing to defer to the other players. Probably one of those chicken and the egg arguments…
March 27th, 2007 at 12:17 pm
My earlier comment on SF being somewhat easier matchup to win than SG was based on leaguewide averages of all players at that position from recent years and wasnt up to date this season or soley focused on top.
For career Lewis’ offensive efficiency is a couple %points higher than Allen. Allen’s PER is about 10% higher but he takes 20% more shots per 48 to achieve that.
Allen is somewhere between the beginning of the SG spectrum closest to PG and the midpoint while Lewis is somewhere in the upper half of the SF spectrum closer to PF than SG. So the comparison is more apples to oranges than often the case with SGs and SFs. Allen is a career #1 while Lewis moved up the ranks to #2. Those are different animals and it would take a big vote by Sund or WEilkens to move Lewis to #1. Odds of big success there seem less than even but again it gets back to how many seasons you want to try Allen as #1 with 1 hit and 4 blahs before trying something else.
March 27th, 2007 at 12:28 pm
Allen might respond favorably to players stepping up but it may get back to how far they step up. 04-05 Daniels, Rad, Murray, Ridnour did some things but they were very prominent. Only Lewis was much above 10 pts a game.
Ridnour as 16+pt scorer in Nov/Dec was a different level of step up. What Ray really thought or did about that structural change I dont know and we may never know unless one is traded.
Wilcox as 16+ pt scorer might be more welcome by Ray. But then you could ask why did it take til recently to get back to that after last spring’s promise.I certainly hope Ray can comfortably accept and make the most out of a 16+pt Wilcox when he shows up ready to deliver that.
A 16+ pt PG isnt essential. One that got there with lots of drives though would probably be a big plus though.
As much as Ray talks correctly about getting help from a veteran big, I think he and the Sonics have to talk about what type of PG makes the most out of all the ingredients not just Ray and Rashard.
March 27th, 2007 at 12:45 pm
Should have been the 04-05 guys … werent .. very prominent. Radmanovic is 3rd just short of 12 pts a game. Sonics had 5 in double figures but then seemingly a fairly clean break at least in terms of coach dictated roles.
This season only 4 in double figures but 7 guys trying hard for it. Maybe they need to get back to regular roles for 5 in double figures. Moving one or two guys that want to score might be part of the answer if the other part is getting better defenders who dont care about shooting as much. (AK’s Houston trade fits with that thinking for example.)
March 27th, 2007 at 1:05 pm
Next year they could see 10 guys “going for” 10+pt game averages unless roster changes occur and unless someone lays down the law more effectively.
Looking at the best teams 4-5 in double figure scoring is the norm with 6 the max.
March 27th, 2007 at 1:08 pm
If they decide a more distributed attack of 6 in double figures fits the personnel and improve winning chances then Ray and Rashard will have to allow the step up of others and let a few shots go to others early in the games.
March 27th, 2007 at 1:14 pm
Allen, Lewis, Wilcox, at least one PG…
Who else should get shots to be a 10+ pt scorer?
Collison, Wilkins, Swift, a second PG, a high 1st round rookie pick, Petro, Gelabale?
Which one or two? Or tell them all no?
March 27th, 2007 at 1:43 pm
The Sonics definately need to define the roles of their players…
March 27th, 2007 at 2:10 pm
This was going to be a year of lots of career highs in scoring from the Sonics but Allen breaking his seemed the least siginficant and perhaps the least necessary and perhaps the career high seasons of others could have been higher and more consistent . Compared to last season, because of FG% drops from 2pt and 3pt, Allen used about 12% more possessions and produced about 5% more points.
March 27th, 2007 at 2:11 pm
In the book by Vince Lombardi Jr. on leadership he always makes references to his father and how he did things.
In one chapter he tells how his father would sit down with the Packers owners and management and they would decide what the vision of team would be and once that was decided they would decide the course of action to achieve their goal. He said no matter what, everyone was aways reminded to stay focussed on the goal and never steer off course even if the waters got rough.
So I would say they need to go further than simply defining roles, although that is of course one aspect of getting the team back on the winning track next season. They need to impliment some changes that brings in players willing to take on those roles no matter what perceived status that player may think he has within the team.
March 27th, 2007 at 2:17 pm
So his marginal TS% for the increased takes was barely above 42% which is about 15 points below his average efficiency, 10 points below league average and 4 pts below Watson’s average efficiency for the season now.
March 27th, 2007 at 2:18 pm
TK - - Agree completely with this:
“Ridnour as 16+pt scorer in Nov/Dec … What Ray really thought or did about that structural change I dont know and we may never know unless one is traded.”
This was, in part, my earlier point. I remember this period, perhaps erroneously, as the strongest for the team this year. At that time, they hit a bump. Ray expressed concern that the offense wasn’t going through him sufficiently, and the play sets were revised to feature Ray more (and de-emphasized penetration by the point guards).
My recollection is that the offense showed a short burst, then worsened rapidly. I don’t think they recovered from the revison to the offense thereafter (though this was compounded by the injuries to Rashard and Ray).
It was this series of events that caused me to first become concerned about Ray’s role with the team.
March 27th, 2007 at 2:40 pm
I should add that marginal TS% calculation is the harsh view and underlying assumes Ray was (or should have been) basically the same as last season except for his shooting rate. But he had his ankles to deal with. Lewis out some, etc.
You could make a more friendly take that without those factors maybe Allen taking career high attempts would have made him a 30+ pt scorer the whole way and won some more games.
March 27th, 2007 at 2:58 pm
In one chapter he tells how his father would sit down with the Packers owners and management and they would decide what the vision of team would be and once that was decided they would decide the course of action to achieve their goal. He said no matter what, everyone was aways reminded to stay focussed on the goal and never steer off course even if the waters got rough.
- F***!! You mean when you say you have a five year plan you are actually supposed to have a plan?? Why didn’t they tell Howard and Wally this before hand…?
This was, in part, my earlier point. I remember this period, perhaps erroneously, as the strongest for the team this year. At that time, they hit a bump. Ray expressed concern that the offense wasn’t going through him sufficiently, and the play sets were revised to feature Ray more (and de-emphasized penetration by the point guards).
- Based on just a broad overview of the teams schedule it appears that their best two periods of performance were:
February 11 - March 6 (7-3)
What is amazing is that not surprisingly that was the first time that the entire team had been together (and healthy) since the very beginning of the season. Rashard came back on 02/10 and then Ray sat out against the Clippers on Feb 4 and fought through his bone spurs for two more wins and then things went downhill again.
During this time frame Lewis led the team in scoring 4 times, Wilcox Tied for 1 and Ray did it 6 times. Where things become fuzzy and it basically ends up painting each person into their own perspective sides is whether they got better because Allen didn’t shoot as much, or if Allen didn’t shoot as much because he got better.
I would also note that it appears that the Sonics scored at a much higher pace when Rashard was out with his injury. They only scored under 100 pts twice (98 and 99)…not sure how you can explain that phenomenon.
March 27th, 2007 at 5:05 pm
Myk you are right a lot of things are chicken / egg dilemmas.
One minor thing I found is that Allen shoots the ball on average about 1 second earlier on the clock than Lewis. Very small but it appears they play a couple % faster with Ray than Lewis- probably the impact of some postups.
March 27th, 2007 at 5:56 pm
Ray co-existed in a big three for Bucks… for a fairly short-time and shooting 17 shots a game. Would he go back to 17 for a big 3 with lewis & wilcox?
And to balance an earlier statement, change from Nov/Dec to Jan and beyond may not have had any direct Ridnour/Allen dynamic. it could be mainly the synthetic ball vs old ball, Hill and just ups and downs of a season happening in a way that made it look funny. I can’t tell how much was each.