The Kevin Durant Show
Posted on Friday, June 29th, 2007 at 12:05 pm by Brian Robinson
Is anyone else surprised that the Seattle basketball community is focused on everything but Kevin Durant this morning? Despite being the biggest sports star to enter this market since Ken Griffey Jr. Durant ranks right around fourth on the conversation list this morning. First people want to talk about Ray Allen, then Jeff Green, then the swap of Allen for Greens and it’s affect on our franchises future. Somewhere at the end of the conversation it gets mentioned, “Oh yeah, Durant is going to be great.”
The Seattle SuperSonics lost a classy leader yesterday. They traded a great basketball player who conducted himself with extreme professionalism and was an active and respected member of our community, a significant donor to local charities, and the face of the franchise. Despite the fact that the Sonics drafted Kevin Durant all of todays conversation is centering around the blockbuster trade which sent 32 year old Ray Allen to Boston in exchange for Jeff Green, Delonte West, and Wally Szczerbiak. Today fans are taking time to sort out their feelings about the Ray Allen era.
Ray Allen at his best is a lot more than a shooter. His abilities to cut off screens, move without the basketball, handle the ball, and set up teammates were vastly underrated. In our 2005 52 win season he defied his reputation as a pure shooter to be a pure ball-player, dominating every way but defensively. At his best even his defense is not poor, simply middle of the road.
Unfortunately over the last two seasons Allen has reverted back to being primarily a gunner. Taking shots himself, not being quite as willing to distribute the ball, and of course failing to win. This change, combined with his age, contract, and surgery on both ankles created a situation in which trade options had to at least be explored.
In addition to these issues there is the matter of Ray Allen the teammate. Like his game Ray Allen’s personality was something of an issue. Again you can look at Ray at his best, a complete professional with a calculated public presence, pride and dedication above his peers, and a willingness to shoulder responsibility that would be admired in any profession.
Beyond that however there are other issues, many of which are not really visible to the general public. Ray Allen has a persona so large that it dwarfs everything around him. His influence on young players was undisputable and, while often very positive may have held young players back from establishing their own identity. On the team there is very much a clique of “Ray’s guys” and there is a sense that Ray dictates the behavior and play of those guys.
Many readers may ask themselves how this can possibly be a bad thing, but at times it is. Ray Allen wanted the ball, he demanded the ball, and he set the tone. At one point a player who I will not name told me that he felt the problems with Luke Ridnour originated with Ray. He contended that Ridnour was intimidated by Ray and that, each time down the floor Luke would disregard other players to ensure that Ray got the very first look. In this account Luke had been pressured by Ray, almost scolded if he crossed mid-court and got the ball to any player not named Ray and had gotten into Ridnours head and lead to hesitation by the young PG. Another player laughingly described the mid-court huddles saying essentially that “on TV they always describe the pep talk. They don’t know that half the time it is Ray bitching someone out saying “why didn’t you get me the (freaking) Ball?’
Ray does not have the ability to turn this off. His personal confidence and his pride are part of what make him so great and his imperfections should not detract from that greatness. However when trying to build a franchise you have to wonder whether this personality would create problems going forward with a new young superstar.
Looking backward there were always so many questions about the Sonics ability to build their franchise around Ray and Rashard:
Can you build a winning team around an offensive minded SG and SF?
Are Ray and Rashard’s games too similar to coexist?
Is it possible to win when both your PG and SG are sub-par defenders?
Is it possible to improve the teams defense when the primary player is so offensively oriented?
Will there be enough shots for Ray Allen, Rashard Lewis, and Kevin Durant?
Oddly enough trading Ray Allen addressed all these issues in one fell stroke. While it created significant new questions for the organization they at least have taken a significant step towards making this Kevin Durants team.
People will ask whether the loss of Ray Allen could be result in the Sonics leaving Seattle. Could handing the reigns over to a pair of rookies disenfranchise the fans to the point that the team simply has no support and leaves the area.
To answer that question you must fairly ask yourself how in love Seattle ever was with Ray Allen, and more importantly how much they will fall in love with Kevin Durant. While today fans are talking about Ray Allen and Jeff Green tomorrow they will rightly begin talking about Kevin Durant. Durant deserves to be the centerpiece of the franchise and that would have been difficult to do with Ray Allen’s dominant personality on the roster. Allen, despite his obvious greatness was never the franchise saver that people are making him out to be. The title of Savior is Kevin Durants to win or lose.
June 29th, 2007 at 12:15 pm
Brian, I totally agree with you…I think the only reason people are so bummed about Ray is that they didn’t see it coming.
But in hindsight, what exactly was so great about the Ray Allen era?
In his four full years here they went 37-45, 52-30, 35-47, and 31-51 (155-173). They made the playoffs once (in a league where more than half the teams make the playoffs every year). Sure, Ray gave us an All-Star to replace GP, and he certainly put up the gaudy scoring numbers, but by last year he’d become a bit fragile and such a black hole on offense that the team was hard to watch.
As everyone seems to be realizing in the cold light of day, the future of this team is Kevin Durant, and putting guys around him who can play with and compliment him is the direction the team needs to go. So far, they’ve done that, and I’m glad.
June 29th, 2007 at 12:16 pm
Well said Brian.
June 29th, 2007 at 12:17 pm
very well put, I think so many people are too busy being saddened by the loss of allen, that they have completely forgotten the addition of kevin durant
we lose ray allen, we gain durant/green/west/wally, I honestly believe we are a better team now then we were last week with just the the switch from ray to durant.
June 29th, 2007 at 12:19 pm
No real basketball observer would not accept the theory behind trading Ray (aging shooter, bum angles, on downside of career, etc.) - it’s just what came back in return. Of course we will miss Ray, but if something sexy came back in return people wouldn’t be disgruntled. People just don’t know how sexy Jeff Green is, especially when he starts teaming up with Durant - sorry for the visuals.
June 29th, 2007 at 12:32 pm
The team seems better now even though they traded allen. durant/green/lewis and the team just have to regroup and work together as a team. But Presti has to get a coach first. Go Sonics!!
June 29th, 2007 at 12:45 pm
Thank your for the “voice of reason”, Brian. I still think that people need to hang on and see how things shake out with the roster before rushing to judgment.
As I see it, you’ve got true actual PG’s (Luke and Earl), one “tweener” guard (West), one SG (Wally), a slew of SF’s (Gelabale, Wilkins, Green, Durant, possibly Lewis), several choices for PF (Wilcox, Collison, possibly Durant?), and the three-headed monster at Center (Swift, Sene, Petro).
As far as I can see, there’s a logjam at the two forward positions (especially if Rashard is re-signed) and not a lot of good backcourt depth/quality. This leads me to believe that Presti will try and ship out of the redundant/spare parts in the frontcourt to obtain a better PG and/or a better SG. Not sure who those players might be, but I am withholding critcism until I see the big picture.
June 29th, 2007 at 12:45 pm
The coaching search just got more interesting. If Presti honestly wants to resign Rashard and have three 6-9ish guys playing together, sounds more like a Don Nelson/Mike D’Antoni team than a Carlesimo/Carlisle/Casey team.
You’re going to need an innovative coach who can utilize traps and zones to maximize the length and athleticism of those players.
How about a 1-3-1 trap with West on top, Lewis-Durant-Green in the middle and Swifty in back? Could be pretty effective.
I’m wondering whether this young team with a young front office is really going to hire an old coach like PJ?
Maybe they go with a foreign coach with major success in a European style? I know there are a couple of multiple Euroleague championship coaches that have been mentioned as possible NBA candidates.
June 29th, 2007 at 12:46 pm
Very well put! Hopefully people will wake up and realize that a young superstar like Durant is far more exciting and worth supporting than an aging all-star who really never got the team anywhere, and by numerous accounts disrupted the teams chemistry.
June 29th, 2007 at 12:51 pm
My only concern is this point is that we traded an apparent dominant personality in Ray and have taken back someone like Wally. I seem to recall Wally and KG bickering all the time with the T’Wolves, so that’s a concern.
And, as a personal aside, Wally seems like one of those guys who you’d just want to pop in the face if he was in your pickup b-ball game.
June 29th, 2007 at 1:02 pm
Thank you! I’m getting a little sick of the ‘Doom! Doom!’ crowd. Let things pan out. I really don’t think 2 years of Ray & Durant would lead to a title, but 3-4 years of Durant, Green & co could lead to several. Are we more likely to get a stadium with 2 more mediocre seasons and an ‘old’ SG who needs replacing, or the prospect of many years of success after a couple of bad seasons? If I’m being asked to pony up serious cash to build a stadium, I’m more inclined to do so on the basis of maybe 8 years of success instead of 2 average years then uncertainty after Ray hits 34.
June 29th, 2007 at 1:03 pm
Wally is definitely a dueche bag … hopefully a coach will be hired to keep him in line and in his place …coming off the bench. Or, better yet, Wally World gets packaged and traded and we never see him in a Sonics uni!
June 29th, 2007 at 1:03 pm
My main problem with the draft, actually, isn’t the Allen trade at all. It’s giving away the #31 that I don’t understand. This is one of the deepest drafts in years and there was TONS of talent still available. Fazekas, Davis, Pruitt, Mcroberts, Yue, Gasol. I realize that we don’t have roster space for another player, but these are legitimately interesting prospects and to simply give the pick away for nothing?
June 29th, 2007 at 1:03 pm
Ettore Messina of CSKA Moscow has been rumored to be a candidate to coach an NBA team:
http://thepaintedarea.blogspot.com/2006/10/europe-roundup.html
June 29th, 2007 at 1:06 pm
I kind of DON’T want Carlesimo now for some reason. The assistant from Utah sounds OK.
June 29th, 2007 at 1:09 pm
As the roster is now, Wally is sure to get some minutes and if he accepts his role (similarly to Fortson 05-06) he can be valuable. In the past I have disliked him in similar ways as Bruce Bowen and Ron Artest so I cannot say that I was a happy camper when I saw he was on his way here… but Im sure he can be valuable if he comes to term with the role he will be given.
June 29th, 2007 at 1:22 pm
Sounds like a decent match with the roster - this from DraftExpress:
Starting with their coach, two-time Euroleague champion Etore Messina, who is one of the most respected basketball minds in all of Europe. Continuing with their roster, stacked with expensive talent at every position, but built with an eye for complimentary pieces and internal chemistry. Speaking of chemistry, this is essentially exactly the same roster that won the Euroleague championship last year.
CSKA’s biggest strengths, besides their awesome depth and team chemistry, lies in the type of defensive mentality that Messina has imposed on his squad. CSKA is capable of playing lock down defense both in zone and man to man, and will quickly push the ball forward after getting a stop or getting in the passing lanes. Offensively, they enjoy excellent ball-movement from their backcourt to frontcourt, as all of their players possess solid court vision and are generally unselfish players, making them a very enjoyable team to watch. They play for each other and are for the most part all capable of stepping outside and knocking down perimeter jumpers as well. We’re talking about an experienced team that has been to the Euroleague Final Four no less than four years in a row. It will be a shock if they don’t make it five straight this April.
June 29th, 2007 at 1:23 pm
Charlotte waives PG Brevin Knight.
Would he be a good vet to add?
June 29th, 2007 at 1:26 pm
Oh c’mon now! Now Ray’s presonality was an issue?
Stop grasping for straws here.
I’m a Celtics fan now. Nuff said.
June 29th, 2007 at 1:27 pm
Good post, dude — thanks. If those comments on Luke are right, then maybe this move was the change of scenery he needed, and maybe he’ll finally take the step forward we’ve been hoping for (and many of us have been expecting). I do worry about how all these pieces will come together, system-wise and chemistry-wise, but I guess it’s up to the coach to make that happen; which of course means that it’s up to Presti to find a coach who will make it happen.
At this point, if we had to lock down this roster and go with it, this is my guess as to how things look:
PG: Ridnour
SG: West (also PG)
SF: Durant
PF: Collison (also C)
C: Swift
6th (PF/C): Wilcox
7th (SF/PF): Green
8th (SF/SG): Gelabale
9th (PG): Watson
10th (SG/SF): Szczerbiak
11th (SF/SG): Wilkins
12th (PF/C): Petro
13th (C): Sene
I think Wilcox is, overall, a better player than Collison, but I think Collison’s a better fit with the rest of that starting lineup. I didn’t include Rashard, obviously, since his contract is up after tomorrow, but whether he’s here or not, it’s pretty sure that the roster won’t work like that; I’m not trying to predict anything, merely trying to work through and make sense of the players we have at the moment. Still, in laying it out . . . if people are healthy, if we get good coaching, and if the scouts are right on Green . . . that actually doesn’t look too bad.
June 29th, 2007 at 1:28 pm
You’re a Ray Allen fan, not a Sonics fan. Bye.
June 29th, 2007 at 1:29 pm
I also agree with the sentiment that we’re a better team today than we were last week. We lost a dynamic scorer, but we drafted one. Durant also becomes the best instinctual rebounder on the team immediately. In addition, we added a perimeter defender, a combo guard who plays defense, and a shooter who can come off the bench–all things that fans have been wanting for years.
The team, as it is currently constructed, is going to feature…a-hem…interesting line-ups, but it’s still early in the offseason. Hopefully some of the duplication at PG, SG, and C can be turned into a veteran or two who can keep the kids calm.
June 29th, 2007 at 1:36 pm
When Ray was out riding bikes with Luke in the summer early in the pairing I knew that while some good teammate stuff was going on I also knew Allen was after shots. When Ridnour had great start and Ray wasnt particularly happy or giving out compliments and when Ridnour fell apart and Ray didnt seem to say anything notable in public I factored that all in to my from afar assessment of Ray , along with his year after year personal record setting on shot attempts. I was ready to move on. If Ray had handled last 2 years differently, if he had stayed in 04-05 mode giving up a few shots I’d feel differently.
June 29th, 2007 at 1:43 pm
In my book trading Ray Allen for the 5th pick, Delonte West, and a contract that ends before Ray’s does was a steal. The question for the future comes down to whether or not Presti has evaluated Jeff Green’s talent and ability to play with Durant correctly.
If the Sonics let Rashard walk without working a sign and trade for him, then I think the money saving critiques stand. But at the moment the Sonics future looks brighter than it has since the signing of Jim McIlvaine pissed of Shawn Kemp…or at least since Vin Baker stumbled into his first practice drunk.
June 29th, 2007 at 1:44 pm
Now that I have slept on it, and the alcohol is all out of my system, this trade doesn’t seem so bad.
At least with Allen gone there will be no more hard feelings when Kobe, Bowen, & Bell, are playing against us. Did I miss anyone else that Ray had a running fued with? Oh yeah - Dooling.
June 29th, 2007 at 1:44 pm
lol yeah ray wasn’t happy and wasn’t giving compliments to ridnour for his great start.
you guys sound like a bunch of 8 year old girls that got snubbed in a cheerleading contest and are grasping for straws.
it will be fun watching how a team with 3 of it’s best players being 6-10 all stars makes it work.
fun in that they will be the worst team in the league next year and maybe get OJ mayo in the draft.
Green will never be Allen. Ever. he is also better suited to be durants back up- a job Gelabale could do well already.
That’s who we used the #5 pick on?
Great.
I’m a Celtics fan now.
June 29th, 2007 at 1:49 pm
I started the Ettore Messina of CSKA Moscow being a coach for the Sonics talk on SupersonicSoul.com blog about 1 month ago. To my knowlege, he hasn’t been contacted by team. Though, I personally think he’d be a great fit, the rumored link for Raptors opening if they let Sam Mitchell go
June 29th, 2007 at 1:53 pm
bowenisscum: If you’re a Celtics fan now, why don’t you visit their blog(s)? I’m sure they have plenty of people who think exactly how you do there. You’d find a great audience for pro-Ray sentiment there. Allen is 32, has had surgery on both ankles, and is a shooting guard. His most comparable player is Mitch Richmond. How many SG’s have you seen that continue to play at a high level with that many miles on the odometer?
And yeah, you may be right. Green may not ever be Allen. But Green in his early-to-mid 20’s >>>> Allen at 34 or 35 (whenever that contract is up). People were bitter when we traded GP, too. (Myself included) But, it’s better to trade someone a year too early than it is to trade them a year too late.
June 29th, 2007 at 1:53 pm
Again, I’ve got nothing against Ray Allen being dealt elsewhere.
At the trade deadline last season, I wanted Rick Sund to pursue a deal whereby the Seattle Supersonics would’ve sent Allen to the Chicago Bulls for P.J. Brown and Ben Gordon. Yesterday afternoon, moreover, I came up with a trade proposal in which Allen was traded to the Phoenix Suns for Kurt Thomas and Raja Bell.
Obviously, though, that was nothing more than a half-baked idea.
At any rate, however, Sam Presti should’ve demanded that Danny Ainge have included Theo Ratliff — in lieu of Wally Szczerbiak, of course — as a part of the trade that went down last night. Otherwise, he should’ve polietly declined and, as a result, attempted to deal Allen to another ballclub at a later juncture during the off-season.
Alas, there’s nothing that can now be done about it.
June 29th, 2007 at 1:58 pm
“At any rate, however, Sam Presti should’ve demanded that Danny Ainge have included Theo Ratliff — in lieu of Wally Szczerbiak, of course — as a part of the trade that went down last night. Otherwise, he should’ve polietly declined and, as a result, attempted to deal Allen to another ballclub at a later juncture during the off-season.”
Shoulda, woulda, coulda. Who’s to say that the market for Ray Allen was all that hot, anyhow? It seems to me that the Sonics took the Celtics deal because it was either A) the best one available that fit their needs or B) there were no other offers on the table at the time. Could they have waited until the season started to field offers for him? Sure. But with that, you run the risk that Allen doesn’t bounce back from his injuries in the manner that we expect. You also run the risk of putting him on the floor and getting injured again. And, none of this guarantees that you’re getting any better deal for him than we received yesterday.
June 29th, 2007 at 2:00 pm
Green turns 21 in 2 months.
June 29th, 2007 at 2:01 pm
And, the other thing that should be re-iterated here: I looked at draft grades and draft analysis from 5 or 6 six different publications/websites/etc. Not one of them berated the Sonics for trading Ray Allen, nor were any of them particularly complimentary about the Celtics acquiring Ray. The media is not always right, obviously. However, when I cannot find one dissenting voice in the media about the Ray deal, it sure seems to reinforce the validity of the deal.
June 29th, 2007 at 2:03 pm
Trade Idea:
4 teams - Seattle, Minnesota, Phoenix, and Memphis.
Seattle trades Lewis, Wilcox, and ‘08 first round pick.
Phoenix trades Marion and Barbosa.
Minnesota trades Garnett.
Memphis trades Pau Gasol.
———–
Seattle receives Gasol and Barbosa.
Phoenix receives Garnett.
Minnesota receives Lewis and Wilcox.
Memphis receives Marion and first round pick.
————
For Seattle put Gasol at the 5 and Barbosa at the 2.
If you substitute Allen for Lewis the trade works at Real GM.
June 29th, 2007 at 2:03 pm
How many times is ‘Bowenisscum’ going to mention his newfound affinity for the Celtics?
June 29th, 2007 at 2:06 pm
You guys are missing the most important factor in this deal.
Ray Allen and Allan Ray are now on the same team!!!!!
Actually I was pretty upset at first. I really thought with Swift coming back and Durant being the scorer off the bench we could really be a dangerous team. But I understand that down the road Ray’s contract was going to be a millstone. I also see the logic behind grabbing the guy they see as the perfect complimentary player for Durant. I even read they are friends and have played together in the past.
Right now Wally Szcerbiak is the highest paid player on the team.
June 29th, 2007 at 2:16 pm
“Green will never be Allen. Ever. he is also better suited to be durants back up- a job Gelabale could do well already.”
You’ve obviously never seen Green play.
June 29th, 2007 at 2:17 pm
Green and Durant interview on KJR right now!
June 29th, 2007 at 2:18 pm
Green and Durant interview on KJR right now!
June 29th, 2007 at 2:18 pm
If Ridnour is not dealt this summer, there may be more chance his stock goes up from here than down any further. Early in the year there may be a good number of shots available and if Ridnour hits them then his trade value will be higher.
June 29th, 2007 at 2:21 pm
I’m chalking up last year as and off year for Ridnour. As a PG he had limited time to play with the top two scorers Shard/Ray at the same time. On top of that we were a horrible team last year. Its no surprise to me that either PG couldn’t flourish in that situation.
Rid/Watson aren’t game changers. Their production depends alot on the players around them. Not a fan of either player……but not ready to give up on them after one off year.
June 29th, 2007 at 2:28 pm
Has there been ANY talk at all regarding Dave Sabey since the initial story a few months back? I’m starting to feel that the only way to keep the team in town is if a local group of private investors does something for an arena in Seattle/Eastside. I think the Muckleshoots have good intentions, but I fear that the league and Stern won’t see it as serious enough for him to step in and keep the team from moving.
June 29th, 2007 at 2:31 pm
I’m sick of the drama queen Seattle sports fans and media. This is ridiculous. These are the exact same people who absolutely freaked when GP was traded for Ray. Across the country people view this is a good move for the Supes. That is except for here. I can understand if some people are scared that it means the team is leaving. But we need to realize that it has nothing to do with that. Presti is trying to build the team the right way. Not half ass it. And as far as keeping the team here, it’s up to us the fans to show support. If anything, hopefully this will prove that people in Seattle still care. But those of you who are saying that Jeff Green is garbage and a back up need to wake the hell up.
June 29th, 2007 at 2:32 pm
Thank you Brian, you articulated very well what I’ve been trying to say for 3 days. I don’t want to take the “addition by subtraction” thing too far in Ray’s case, since he is such a pro, and a classy guy. But there are such things as good leaders and bad leaders. No doubt Ray was a leader, but I think it has become abundantly clear that he isn’t very good at it. Possibly a dominant coach (think Riley or Jackson) could overcome it, but it is time to see what happens with Luke (maybe), Nick, Shard (maybe), Swift, KD…what they can be without him. See who fills the void. Much easier to assert yourself now.
June 29th, 2007 at 2:35 pm
“I think the Muckleshoots have good intentions, but I fear that the league and Stern won’t see it as serious enough for him to step in and keep the team from moving.”
I think you’re underestimating them.
June 29th, 2007 at 2:36 pm
This was an amazing trade. Some people seem to be having a hard time realizing how good Durant really is. In 2 years he is going to be Lebron-like and ready to take us to the next level. In 2 years, Ray Allen will be completely done.
For the first time in a long time I have faith in a Seattle franchise because the GM actually has the balls to trade a star that is “loved by all the families” in order to get younger and more talented.
It could be worse. Look at the Mariners. They acquire old guys and hang onto them FOREVER because they are “fan favorites.” Thank GOD we finally have a good GM in Seattle.
June 29th, 2007 at 2:36 pm
“At any rate, however, Sam Presti should’ve demanded that Danny Ainge have included Theo Ratliff — in lieu of Wally Szczerbiak, of course — as a part of the trade that went down last night.”
From what I’ve been reading, we were initially offered Rondo and Ratliff, but Presti wanted West, so Ainge made him take Szcz. Makes sense to me. Delonte+Green is a pretty good return for Allen. Still baffled by the #31 trade, but, whatevs, what’s done is done and we’re ultimately much better off for it.
June 29th, 2007 at 2:37 pm
Bowenisscum, seriously man…what’s the deal… Did you ditch the mariners when the dealt Moyer in his 40’s, or when the cut Boone because he had a bad year and was aging….
Remember when Griffey got dealt… Oh no, the world was ending…we lost our savior, the man who walks on water.
Until the pieces and parts from that deal ended up starting for the 116 win team… Same thing with the Randy Johnson Deal…. Same thing with the Gary Payton deal that brought Allen here…
When I see short-sightness like this from “NBA Fans” it really makes me shudder. You are the definition of “Fair Weather” Fan and people like you are the reason Seattle fans are generally known as some of, if not the most fickle in all of sports….
As someone else pointed out, your not a sonics fan….never were. You’re a Ray Allen fan. That’s ok….But after about 4:45 yesterday, you really have no business here, as you’re guy plays for Boston now.
June 29th, 2007 at 2:37 pm
Kevin Durant…just think about it. People could lose the chance to see Kevin Durant take this league by storm.
Human nature is what it is. Short term. What can you do for me RIGHT NOW. Right THIS SECOND.
In a vacuum these moves are great. The team wasn’t winning jack with Ray Allen. Ray Allen doesn’t bring championships. You don’t build AROUND an again Ray Allen. That ship has long since sailed.
You just drafted one of the most dynamic players to come along in a great while. You build around KEVIN DURANT.
I still think once people see him on the court and realize what they could be letting go, things will happen. Don’t you think the Muckleshoot’s would love to get that kind of draw down there. If they say up front, we will put up 400 million for a building David Stern would turn a deaf ear?
See the forest through the trees people. Yes, there’s a redwood forest right now, but Kevin Durant…gotta see that through the trees.
Sorry for the sort of rambling, but Brian is right. We need to look at the big picture BASKETBALL WISE and realize rebuilding right now is the right BASKETBALL move…in a vacuum. And that’s how Sam Presti HAS to act if it’s to be done right.
I am Joe Q middle american in Boise, Idaho, but I am damn sure to try to catch some games next year if I can. KEVIN DURANT is just that good.
June 29th, 2007 at 2:38 pm
Brian–amazing piece. Very very interesting
June 29th, 2007 at 2:42 pm
Zeppe is dead on the money. Where do I get my opening night tickets?
June 29th, 2007 at 2:45 pm
Nice comment. Interesting stuff about Ray, but especially about the team and Durant. I wondered at times about the philosophy of limiting offensive options by having a strict pecking order. It sounds ridiculous.
Ray 1, Rashard 2, who’s the 3rd?!! Is it not a relief that we can stop asking this question?
And Jeff Green seems to be both an athletic and creative basketball player. Maybe this “wunderkind” has some scouting ability. . . We’ll see.
But let’s keep the Sonics in Seattle, for ****’s sake!
June 29th, 2007 at 2:47 pm
Correction..an AGING Ray Allen.
June 29th, 2007 at 2:51 pm
“I’m sick of the drama queen Seattle sports fans and media. This is ridiculous. These are the exact same people who absolutely freaked when GP was traded for Ray. Across the country people view this is a good move for the Supes. That is except for here. I can understand if some people are scared that it means the team is leaving. But we need to realize that it has nothing to do with that. Presti is trying to build the team the right way. Not half ass it. And as far as keeping the team here, it’s up to us the fans to show support. If anything, hopefully this will prove that people in Seattle still care. But those of you who are saying that Jeff Green is garbage and a back up need to wake the hell up.”
In 2003, I was a huge fan of the Gary Payton trade. Currently, I’m against the Ray Allen trade. I, therefore, am less than amused at your asinine generalization.
Jeff Green, by the way, will not pan out at the professional level. Recently, I explained the reasoning behind my position, with the following comments being my explination.
“Although I’m definitely in the minority here, I still think that Jeff Green will ultimately be a bust in the NBA. All things considered, Green is a mediocre ball-handler, rebounder, shot blocker, foot speed, quickness, mid-range shooter; plus, he commits way too many turnovers for someone who’s supposedly a facilitator on offense. Other than his supposed prowess on defense, Green is nothing but a clone of Boris Diaw—which is a type of player that the Seattle Supersonics don’t need at this moment in time!”
Y’all can take that to the bank.
June 29th, 2007 at 2:52 pm
I agree with Kelly -much of this is about the evaluation Presti and his advisors have of Jeff Green. I hope they are right.
June 29th, 2007 at 2:58 pm
AK, why can’t you learn some f’ng humility. You can have your opinions without coming off as the most obnoxious, self-important person on the entire internet. I really hope I never meet you in person or accidentally stumble into your 7-11.
June 29th, 2007 at 3:00 pm
Before we signed Presti, he had a reputation for being one of, if not the brightest overall scouting mind in Basketball, especially at his age. He has developed scouting systems that are used league wide.
He is the Billy Beane/Theo Epstein/Moneyball equivelent in Basketball… I have a feeling he knows what he’s doing AK… after all, he is the biggest up n comer in basketball managemenet, and you appear to be an angry, bitter fan that must be absolute in everything.
June 29th, 2007 at 3:03 pm
Allen’s 4 playoffs in 11 years seems a little light but his circumstances werent great. Making playoffs in 2005 helped a lot getting the next megadeal and created expectations for more but represented his only appearance post age 25. But thanks and good luck in Boston.
June 29th, 2007 at 3:05 pm
Regarding Jeff Green, it’ll take a few years to find out who’s correct in this instance. Personally, I’ve got a bad feeling that he’s going to ultimately be a bust, which is mostly due to his style of play, numerous flaws, and unimpressive physique for the power forward position. In any event, though, we’ll eventually find out who’s right at some point down the line.
Anyway, EJ, you should just relax, take it easy, be a tad bit more laid back, and not think of these conversations on a personal level.
June 29th, 2007 at 3:08 pm
Swift / Sene / Collison
Collison / Petro / Green
Durant / Gelabale / Green /Wilkens
Green / West / Wilkens
Watson / Luke / West
Wally is deep bench / buzzer beater shooter type.
Trade Wilcox for something and I think this team will really start to make some noise before the end of the season.
Rashard? Who knows. Bonus if we get something for him. Please not Haslim.
June 29th, 2007 at 3:08 pm
“At the trade deadline last season, I wanted Rick Sund to pursue a deal whereby the Seattle Supersonics would’ve sent Allen to the Chicago Bulls for P.J. Brown and Ben Gordon. Yesterday afternoon, moreover, I came up with a trade proposal in which Allen was traded to the Phoenix Suns for Kurt Thomas and Raja Bell.”
AK, dude, you’re smokin.
Your trades are irrelevant. But instead of citing the obvious, of ANY trades mentioned for Allen, getting Jeff Green and Delonte West, who beat out Rondo for the starting pg job the 2nd half of the season for the Celts, is far greater than any option mentioned by you or anyone else. You think Green’s going to be a bust? Well, as usual, you’re in the minority. He was projected top 8 the entire time, and will fit in well to our squad as it will stand after some forward sacrificing for hopefully an sg and filler…
June 29th, 2007 at 3:10 pm
“Regarding Jeff Green, it’ll take a few years to find out who’s correct in this instance. Personally, I’ve got a bad feeling that he’s going to ultimately be a bust,”
I agree with this. On both counts. To my eye, his apparent lack of quickness really concerns me - but Presti is kid genius - so I’ll accept that I could be wrong. (although bust is too strong a word - how about mediocre - D McKeyish).
June 29th, 2007 at 3:10 pm
Will Green at max score 12 or 16? rebound 5 or 7? make 3-4 assists a game or 2? I don’t know. I am just getting introduced to his highlights, stats, etc.
June 29th, 2007 at 3:11 pm
AK,
Have some patience and lets see how this team plays on the court, yeah? It’s perfectly within your right to be skeptical of the trade, but you should know as well as anybody that scouting/projecting/drafting is an inexact science. And, honestly, if I’m going to take anybody’s word on this trade/draft at this point in time it’s going to be Presti’s. He had my faith to do a good job before the draft and he’ll continue to have it at least until I can see the product on the court with my own eyes.
June 29th, 2007 at 3:14 pm
In wondering about scouting I think the fact that Presti also had Perry and Cho with him makes me trust the pick even more. Perry even moreso.
June 29th, 2007 at 3:15 pm
Actually, El Presidente, I was wrong in one assessment that I made prior to the 2006-2007 season — which, mind y’all, are located within the archives here — and that had to due with my belief that Earl Watson would have a break out season.
Additionally, I was almost wrong about my thought that Nick Collison would be head-and-shoulders more productive than Chris Wilcox — especially during the first couple months of the season — yet, as the season progressed, I was vindicated by Collison’s improved play once the leather basketball was reinstated into the NBA.
Lastly, I’ll refer you to my recent comments.
“Remember, folks, I’m the guy who predicted that the Seattle Supersonics would finish with a record of 32-50 in 2006-2007 prior to the start of the regular season, while a bunch of optimistic dolts thought that the undeniably flawed team had a chance of making the playoffs.
In addition, I was right that Chris Wilcox would continue being a sloth who doesn’t play a lick of defense, while several morons kept claiming that he’d turn it around upon signing a long-term contract.
Furthermore, I turned on Luke Ridnour before most of y’all gave up on the local product. At this point in time, it appears that Myk is just one of the few guys left who are blindly supporting Ridnour’s weak game.
Finally, there are many more examples of cases such as these — such as Mouhamed Sene, Johan Petro, et cetera — however, I’m just going to let y’all take the time to sift through the archives, since that should be proof enough for everyone.”
As I’ve mentioned numerous times, my record speaks for itself.
June 29th, 2007 at 3:17 pm
some interesting reading for people who were puzzled by the 5th pick, there’s even a scottie pippen reference.
Phil Jackson for 08!
why would we take Jeff Green over Brewer?
http://www.celticsblog.com/index.php?option=com_smf&Itemid=64&topic=5874.0
June 29th, 2007 at 3:24 pm
Hey AK,
How many NBA championship teams did you help assemble? I don’t mean to be rude, but in the game of Presti v. AK1984, Presti has the advantages of experience, an impeccable FO track record, inside knowledge, an army of scouts, and Cho and Perry; AK, you have what now? A few predictions that panned out? I’m taking Presti on this one, at least for now.
June 29th, 2007 at 3:27 pm
“Ray Allen and Allan Ray are now on the same team!!!!!”
HAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAAH.
That’s funny.
This trade will work for us in a few years, but I can’t stress enough how important it is to be winning next year. Knowing the fairweather nature of Seattle fans, do y’all really believe they will support a lossing team that they already don’t give a crap about??
Say all you want about Ray’s supposedly disruptive ego, but you can’t deny that Ray + Durant have a better chance of winning than Durant+Green.
June 29th, 2007 at 3:27 pm
just an FYI:
in the 2002-2003 season average attendance for a Cleveland Cavaliers game was 11,496
in 2003-2004, the first year of the lebron era, they averaged 18,287
i think there is strong evidence that says durant can pack the key by himself and generate a hell of a lot of hype and fan attention.
June 29th, 2007 at 3:30 pm
GP,
Not only do they have Ray Allen and Allan Ray, they also have Tony Allen.
June 29th, 2007 at 3:30 pm
Brice,
Thanks for that. Durant is a show unto himself. You think Lakers attendance would be what it is today if they were still an 8th seed but didn’t have Kobe?
In any case, I’m still convinced that as long as Muckleshoot continues to push, the Sonics won’t leave.
June 29th, 2007 at 3:31 pm
Green looks a lot like Derrick McKey to me, too. Personally, I think getting West and the #5 (even given that it was Wally coming along) for Ray was a great deal; I just wish we’d turned around and swapped the #5 to GSW or Chicago so they could take Yi, because I don’t think there was anyone worth taking with the #5 pick once Conley was off the board. I don’t like Green very well (though I hope I’m wrong), but I don’t really see anyone else I would have liked better. (I actually think Yi’s going to be good, but not for us, not after taking Swift/Petro/Sene the last three years.) I would much rather have come away with Stuckey, but that was just too high to take him.
June 29th, 2007 at 3:35 pm
AK, said this on another post that I have not rechecked but who is going to be good that I don’t already know is going to be good. In a league with 400 or so players and less than 100 of them are great, it is easy to label the underachievers. Pick a sleeper for me.
June 29th, 2007 at 3:41 pm
Malaman,
It’s a crap shoot, but I’d put money down that, 5 years down the road, one of
Big Baby Davis, McRoberts or Fazekas will turn out to be one of the 10 best talents in the draft.
June 29th, 2007 at 3:42 pm
Just imagine if we had traded Ray for Channing Frye and Stevie Francis.
June 29th, 2007 at 3:44 pm
If Green pans out, will AK leave this blog forever?
June 29th, 2007 at 3:46 pm
“Just imagine if we had traded Ray for Channing Frye and Stevie Francis.”
That helped calm me down last night–Portland made the worst trade of the day, by far. Head case or not, Randolph was worth more than Channing Frye and a dead contract.
June 29th, 2007 at 3:47 pm
Ninja,
No, if AK did, no one would know that Peter Fehse, John Peter Ramos, Yotem Halperin (sp?), etc. exist.
Plus, who else has 13 hours a day to spend on realgm? He would singlehandedly put them out of business.
June 29th, 2007 at 3:47 pm
i have listened to and read opinions all day.also listened to presti w/ mitch and at pm press conference.here’s the issue I’d like to get some feedback on.as i stated previosly. chris sheridan of espn says rashard is gone and so are the sonics.all cost cutting.Dave grosby says the same thing with even more intensity that rashard is gone to cut costs.
However, there is quite a bit of other sentiment out there that is relatively positive i.e.the seattle times and a couple other national guys.
presti seems to me to be very sincere in wanting to sign rashard to fit into his style of play.
my question is: does the future of the sonics staying in seattle depend on what happens w/ rashard.If it is cost cutting as groz says then there will be no sighning AND no sign and trade.
the cunundrum is: why would presti want to build a winner and get absolutely nothing for rashard?
June 29th, 2007 at 3:47 pm
McCoy:
Ugh. I’ll pass, please. Neither of those players would facilitate the rebuilding of this team. Steve Francis is a parasite.
June 29th, 2007 at 3:48 pm
Summer league should be real interesting. Is Gelablae going to play? That would be sweet. Sene, Green, Durante, Gelabale and Dowdell??. I might rather see them than the full squad.
June 29th, 2007 at 3:50 pm
does it come down to if we re sign rashard is that then a good indicator of some hope team will stay or if they dont re sign and no sign and trade does that mean they are gone?
June 29th, 2007 at 3:51 pm
“McCoy:
Ugh. I’ll pass, please. Neither of those players would facilitate the rebuilding of this team. Steve Francis is a parasite.”
Well - I say that only because that is what Portland got for a decent, if involved in some minor troubles, Zach Randolph. It looks like Portland is moving to KC
June 29th, 2007 at 3:52 pm
Mark,
Presti was brought in to build the best team possible. It’s Bennett’s job to worry about the stadium madness. I think Sam will do what he feels will make the team into a perennial title contender.
I don’t buy that Sam’s tanking this year to drive Seattle fans away. If he really wanted to drive fans away, he could have traded the #2 pick for future compensation, traded Ray for Theo and nothing else, let Rashard walk, and filled the roster from the NBDL.
June 29th, 2007 at 3:52 pm
“That helped calm me down last night–Portland made the worst trade of the day, by far. Head case or not, Randolph was worth more than Channing Frye and a dead contract.”
Think about it though. Nobody else would want Randolph or atleast is willing to pay a high price to get him. The Blazers don’t want that kind of guy anymore in the locker room and is totally revamping their image. So this was probably a desperation move. I just can’t imagine what he’ll do in a big city like NYC considering what he did in a quiet town like Portland.
June 29th, 2007 at 3:52 pm
I’m curious… What was Nick Collison’s production like when Ray Allen was injured, as compared to when Allen was playing?
If I remember right, he seemed to be more productive and involved while Allen was out.
Do you think someone might be able to post some stats to see if this is true or not?
June 29th, 2007 at 3:53 pm
“As I’ve mentioned numerous times, my record speaks for itself.”
Two words: Shelden Williams
June 29th, 2007 at 3:56 pm
I take the blame.
I sent a letter to Clay Bennett several months ago. In it I made the following statement:
You cannot fight apathy with “more of the same”
When you really think about that statement it really says a lot about how we should approach this entire team. On this board we are the die-hards. Nothing about the Sonics has captured the attention of this city so we should try something new.
June 29th, 2007 at 3:58 pm
Good stuff Brian. There’s a little bit of throwing dirt on Ray on the way out the door, but you knew the dynamics of the team better than anyone else here.
It was interesting reading that piece that it wasn’t too disimilar thinking of when GP left (instead of Luke, fill in Rashard).
Maybe the dynamic between Ray and Luke is a concern, but if Luke is that easily influenced/shaken, then he needs to get some thicker skin and find HIS game–rather than one others are trying to force him into–because if a teammate can do it, then an opponent can too.
There’s always going to be strong personalities on a team. If Ray was that strong and he was pedestrian at defending, then that’s going to trickle through the team. It did. Presti changed the culture in one swoop.
It’s fair to bring up the record while Ray was here (B didn’t, someone else did), but let’s please note that Rashard was on those teams too so Ray can’t take all the blame. In fact, Lewis was the captain.
Of course, I have fallen to the very thing this original post was about by talking Allen. It’s Kevin Durant time.
I’ve not heard this comparison, but there was a special player in the 60’s/70’s named Connie Hawkins that KD is very similar to. Hawkins got his named tarnished which hurt him entering the league, but once he did, he was good enough to make the ABA and NBA HoF.
Oh man, Kevin Durant.
Works for me.
June 29th, 2007 at 3:59 pm
Imagine it is Monday May 21st. You are told that tomorrow the ping pong balls will fall expected and we get the 5th pick. Then you are told that Boston who has the second pick is willing to trade the number two pick, Delonte West, and Wally Sz for Ray Allen and the number 35 pick. Do you take that offer? I certainly would. I am pretty sure that Presti is looking at this the same way.
WE HAVE DURANT!! That is the main issue. We are building for the future. As far as keeping the team here, we have a team that can dream of getting to a championship level. We did not have that when the Sonics season ended. The dream of a new direction can sell as many or more tickets than a winning 43 games with the same crew +Durant.
June 29th, 2007 at 4:00 pm
Mark,
I can’t believe Presti signed on to be Bennett’s puppet with the primary purpose of moving the franchise. Why would he do that? What Bennett did give him is the opportunity to tear down the team and rebuild it in his own image, so to speak, starting with the #2 pick. Can’t say I blame him. I’m excited for a new era of Seattle basketball because the RayRay/Rashard show wasn’t exactly getting us anywhere.
June 29th, 2007 at 4:01 pm
Rachit, Thats a great point…I think a lot of guys stepped up last year while Ray was out.
If what Brian is saying about Ray being a dominate personality is true, atleast in terms of demanding the ball, it certainly will force other guys to shy away from trying to create points.
In one of those games, against the Wizards I believe, I watched Nick go off…Ended with like 20pts, 18 boards… I can’t see the Sonics trading Nick, only because he is what Presti preaches about needing…. Physical, Hard worker…Grinder…Good IQ, etc…. He’s another quality Glue guy
June 29th, 2007 at 4:09 pm
I wasn’t a supporter of trading Allen, but now that it’s happened, and I’ve had time to digest it, I think, it’s better for us in the long run.
Since Durant is here, we should surround him with good players who can help him develop, and so that they can grow together.
I don’t know much about Jeff Green, but the few things I’ve read are optimistic.
I want to give Swift a chance, I want Collison to play a bigger role, but I think we need to find a better shooting guard, as I feel Wally should come off the bench. I also kind of want to give Ridnour one more chance, and I’d prefer trading Watson rather than Luke.
June 29th, 2007 at 4:19 pm
Presti mentioned that some guys would play well in a system. I wonder which player on the current roster Presti feels will benefit from a quality system.
June 29th, 2007 at 4:21 pm
mala,
I would say probably Watson, Collison, and Swift.
June 29th, 2007 at 4:35 pm
You cannot fight apathy with “more of the same”
Interesting.
It seems the move has definitely sparked some heated discussion, both among hardcore and casual fans. I don’t think JUST drafting Durant would have done that. For good or bad at least people are talking about it.
*
Just heard on KJR the Miami Heat are making a push for Rashard.
June 29th, 2007 at 4:36 pm
As a lifelong C’s fan, I’ll give you my perspective:
Wally: You might not like him. If he’s unhealthy, you’re going to hate him. But when he’s out on the floor, he brings a lot of guts and effort to the game. You can just tell. Is he a defensive liability? He’s subpar, but not through lack of effort. I can see how he could be used as a Ray Allen lite sort of player…and with Durant+Rashard spreading the floor, he could be very effective (granted he’s healthy).
West: You’re going to love this kid. He’s got a gigantic personality, plus he’s a pure hustle, blue collar player with a good outside shot. You’ll have to remember that he’s very young. But he plays with poise. He plays hardnosed D and isn’t afraid to mop the floor. He can play an undersized 2 or spell relief minutes for Ridnour at the 1. I wouldn’t be surprised if he gives some of your starters a run for their money at a starting job.
It’s interesting reading both C’s and Sonics boards. The overwhelming sentiment on both sides was to react negatively. I think that’s understandable, given that both teams have been mired in mediocrity for a long time. But now that everyone has had a chance to think about the logic behind the trades, I think it is something that is actually beneficial to both teams.
Good luck, Sonics!
A loyal C’s fan.
June 29th, 2007 at 4:36 pm
Kjr’s commercial spot is reporting that Miami is persuing Lewis. Any players/expiring contracts that are appealing?
June 29th, 2007 at 4:38 pm
I absolutely hate the trade but I did gain a lot of respect for Presti. The guy has guts and didn’t fall into this trap of trying to mimic his former employers. This team is now the 68-6′10 version of the Golden State Warriors. I still think it’s a weak defensive ballclub (does anybody know if Jeff Green made all Big-East first team defense?) but I appreciate Presti for trying to change the game of basketball to a game where positions and height and weight do not matter anymore.
June 29th, 2007 at 4:38 pm
“Presti mentioned that some guys would play well in a system. I wonder which player on the current roster Presti feels will benefit from a quality system.”
I thought that was a revealing answers. I heard it last night on KJR and it was answered somewhat in response to a question about Rashard if I’m remembering correctly.
June 29th, 2007 at 4:41 pm
I’m still going to ask this homeristic question? Will Durant be allowed in the locker room when this team is spraying champaign on each other in June of 2009?
June 29th, 2007 at 4:46 pm
What do you all think of this plan?
1. Re-sign Lewis.
2. Philly Trade
Seattle: Andre Miller, Shavlik Randolph (or other filler)
Philly: Earl Watson, Chris Wilcox
[link]http://games.espn.go.com/nba/features/traderesult?players=557~2810~1027~1731&teams=25~25~20~20[/link]
3. Cleveland Trade
Seattle: Larry Hughes, Shannon Brown (or other filler)
Cleveland: Luke Ridnour, Wally Szczerbiak
[link]http://games.espn.go.com/nba/features/traderesult?players=1985~831~2992~356&teams=5~5~25~25[/link]
We’d have Lewis, Miller, Hughes as experienced starters with the Durant and either Collision or Swift.
An 8 man rotation of:
Guards: Miller, Hughes, West
Frontcourt: Lewis, Durant, Collision, Green, Swift
Depth: Gelebale, Wilkens, Petro
Deep bench: Wilks, Brown, Randolph, Sene
I think Cleveland would do it to get out of Hughes’ contract and get a point guard and a shooter to spread the floor. Hughes is obviously a gamble with injuries, but he’s in the ultimate buy low scenario and while we get his contact, we get rid of Luke’s & Wally’s (though Hughes goes one more year than Wally).
Philly may/may not do this one. They could use a good young, running 4. They’d be light at point though with Ollie and Watson. Even with Luke’s poison pill it works. I could throw in Petro or Sene to make it happen if needed, but would try not to (or get better filler back if we did)
June 29th, 2007 at 4:46 pm
“I still think it’s a weak defensive ballclub.”
Compared to last year? Are you kidding me? Delonte West is an absolute dog on defense, basically replacing Allen’s (at best) mediocre D, and Jeff Green is a fantastic shot blocker. Durant’s no chump on D, either. Overall, our team defense has improved tremendously.
June 29th, 2007 at 4:49 pm
Alex, I think Robert Swift is going to presently surprise you at the 5, thus precluding the GSW reference. I can see him averaging 10/10/2 and being a VERY solid defensive anchor. And with Green playing the ‘new age 4′ he can draw out defenders, allowing Robert rarely if ever to see a double-team.
June 29th, 2007 at 4:52 pm
“Oh c’mon now! Now Ray’s presonality was an issue?
Stop grasping for straws here.
I’m a Celtics fan now. Nuff said. ”
Hey! I don’t know squat about the team other than what I read in the national media and Steve Kelley columns, but I choose not to believe your first hand observations! I’m now a Celtics fan, but I’ll probably be back when the Sonics go on a hot streak!
Signed, Seattle “fan”
June 29th, 2007 at 4:56 pm
“Dave grosby says the same thing with even more intensity that rashard is gone to cut costs.”
But then he went on to say Shard would sign with Houston or Dallas. When are people going to figure out that ‘Groz’ don’t know shit!
June 29th, 2007 at 4:56 pm
“Anyway, EJ, you should just relax, take it easy, be a tad bit more laid back, and not think of these conversations on a personal level. ”
Gee, with you calling everyone on the site such endearing terms as “asinine” “Moronic” and “stupid” in every post I can’t imagine why he took offense …
June 29th, 2007 at 4:57 pm
I strangely like the idea of adding Miller. This team needs a veteran starter at a position of need BAD.
The only realistic ST I see with Lewis is to Orlando for Darko. But is Darko a Presti guy?
June 29th, 2007 at 4:59 pm
Keith,
I can’t see why Philly would make that deal, and, as for Cleveland, why on earth would we want to essentially replace Luke Ridnour with Larry Hughes? Dude is finished as far as I can tell.
June 29th, 2007 at 5:00 pm
Brian, I can’t blame Ray for chewing out the young guys on this club. He’s the only guy who was willing to get to the arena three hours prior to tip off and shoot jumpers, something that probably four guys in the NBA do. In the ninth game of the season, Petro showed up twenty minutes prior to tip-off! If the young guys don’t want to follow Ray’s example and are happy with getting paid, then I think that’s an indictment on them. I hope Durant and Jeff Green follow the example that Ray left.
June 29th, 2007 at 5:02 pm
Groz is full of Gas.
June 29th, 2007 at 5:04 pm
Sammy, I admit it’s a stretch for Philly. If you make it Wilcox, Petro and Watson, they may go for it.
I think Cleveland is looking to get rid of Hughes though - they need a shooter (Wally) and a point (Luke). If anything I thought I was gonna get blasted for suggesting we take Hughes’ contract…
June 29th, 2007 at 5:09 pm
Keith,
I WAS blasting you for suggesting we take Hughes’ contract. I wouldn’t take that contract even if we didn’t have to give up any talent for him.
June 29th, 2007 at 5:10 pm
I want no part of Larry Hughes on a max contract. SG is the easiest position in the league to fill and they may have already done it with West. Spending max money on wing player just is not a good idea for the most part.
June 29th, 2007 at 5:14 pm
Collison just slightly better for all minutes of last season on court without Ray than with but Dec. and April when Allen were gone were 2 of his 3 comparatively weakest months along with the weak Nov. Jan was the standout month due moreso to return to starting lineup.
June 29th, 2007 at 5:16 pm
Ahh…. read it wrong… that’s more like it….
It’s basically replacing Luke with Hughes (which is an upgrade) and getting rid of both Luke & Wally’s contracts. You still have a bad contract in Hughes, but you have a player at a position you can actually use someone (unlike Wally).
I wouldn’t do that one unless we could also get the Miller trade though.
June 29th, 2007 at 5:21 pm
I think you’re in the minority if you think Larry Hughes will be a better player than Luke Ridnour over the next few years. Larry Hughes’ PER dropped off a cliff after ‘04-05 and I don’t see why it wouldn’t continue to drop.
June 29th, 2007 at 5:21 pm
Alex I’d guess if Sonics put champagne on ice it will be 2012 or later.
I wondered about Hughes early in playoffs but by end the answer was no as others have said and will continue to say.
A Miller seems pretty unlikely because his age does not fit with longterm building plan.
June 29th, 2007 at 5:32 pm
It’s definitely a gamble that injuries and being a bad fit in Cleveland were the cause for Hughes’ decline - and that they’d both magically be fixed by coming here…. Was mainly looking to see what SG we could get with unloading Wally and Luke. There’s definitely cheaper options out there, but we don’t get rid of Wally.
I think Miller would help the long-term plan - by helping out now. He’d be another vet (along with Rashard) to help stabilize things early when the kids are learning. Then in a few years his contact is up. Same with Hughes (thought I do admit he’s more of a gamble, and has 1 more year).
June 29th, 2007 at 5:42 pm
Keith,
If you’re gonna gamble on a vastly overpaid, injury-prone shooter who’s declined rapidly… well, we already got one. His name’s Wally Szczerbiak, and we didn’t even have to give up Luke Ridnour to get him.
June 29th, 2007 at 5:43 pm
Green Big East Player of the Year (07) Second Team All-Big East (06), Big East Co-Rookie of the Year (05)
they didnt split out all conference teams defense and offense separately as they do in nba. Hibbert got defensive player of year. Maybe the voting for that can be found somewhere
June 29th, 2007 at 5:48 pm
Brian,
Nice piece.. but these quotes aer a little worrisome to me…
“Oddly enough trading Ray Allen addressed all these issues in one fell stroke. While it created significant new questions for the organization they at least have taken a significant step towards making this Kevin Durants team. ”
And
“The title of Savior is Kevin Durants to win or lose. ”
I have to say with all due respect, that to say this is Kevin Durant’s team is somewhat a slap in the face to Rashard. Until he is dealt, it is his team, IMO. And probably Durants opinion as well. The first interview I heard Durant give after the lottery he said that he didnt want to be looked at as the savior and that he knew that he WOULDNT be the best player on the team when he arrived here.(mentioned Rashard and Ray) He just wants to come in and contribute any way he can. That’s how KD is looking at this, so lets not put the pressure on him by tagging him as a the leader now that Allen is gone…..
This is Rashard Lewis’ team. By seniority at least. He should be the highest paid player here. He’s earned it. He put up with Ray’s ego more than anyone.
I am more than happy they traded Ray and I will be more than sad if they dont sign Rashard. 27 and in his prime
June 29th, 2007 at 5:48 pm
Any chance we could get Gerald Wallace in a sign and trade for Lewis? They are both unrestricted free agents.
June 29th, 2007 at 5:53 pm
The reason that Cleveland is trying to dump Hughes is because they realize that he’s overpaid, declining and will continue to offer diminishing returns.
He’s a bad contract this year. He’ll be an albatross in 2008.
June 29th, 2007 at 5:54 pm
Fair enuf…. though, I don’t see Wally being quite as useful as Hughes at the 2. And giving up Luke was the point if we had Miller. It was my goal to get rid of those 2. I don’t think you can really get all that much by dangling Wally & Luke.
But, I’ll give up the Hughes thing… I’m definitely not satisfied with a Ridnour\Watson\West backcourt, though.
June 29th, 2007 at 5:56 pm
I like West, though. But just as the combo guard off the bench. I’d like to have a real starting 1 & 2 ahead of him.
June 29th, 2007 at 5:56 pm
You know who I’d love to get? Jose Calderon. That guy is young, has fantastic court vision, and has great quickness off the dribble. Too bad the Raptors are in love with the kid, especially after his numbers exploded last year. I’d trade Rashard and Petro for Calderon and Rasho, but it’d never happen.
June 29th, 2007 at 5:58 pm
You guys are all bashing on AK, but fact of the matter is Presti hasn’t done anything yet.
Fact is that Ray Allen is “aging” but would he be that bad for his 32,33, and 34 years? probably not. You guys make it seem as though he’ll struggle to score 15 ppg next year.
You guys also make him seem like a Grant Hill when he’s only been injured 2x in the last 4 years.
Also, Green could be good, but the % of #5 picks who become all stars is probably less than 50%.
Fact is, Ray Allen is the #2 SG in the league right now after Kobe Bryant (Dwyane Wade is a combo guard, TMac and Lebron are SFs).
You guys are going holier than thou in your arguments against AK, but when he makes an arguement you discredit him with illogical arguments. I’m not saying he’s right, but you guys are being just as illogical as you claim he is.
June 29th, 2007 at 6:00 pm
Keith,
I think Ridnour and some package of Wilcox/Collison/Wilkens/Petro/Sene will likely be dealt this offseason.
The mad scientist still has work to do. He knows it, and I’m sure he will bring back pieces to ensure that the Sonics are perennial contenders.
June 29th, 2007 at 6:01 pm
Okay, folks, the following is my sleeper success story regarding rookies coming into the 2007-2008 season: Morris Almond.
“Gee, with you calling everyone on the site such endearing terms as ‘asinine,’ ‘moronic,’ and ’stupid’ in every post I can’t imagine why he took offense …”
Okay, Steve, that’s a fair point.
“But then he went on to say Shard would sign with Houston or Dallas. When are people going to figure out that ‘Groz’ don’t know shit!”
Yes, Dave Grosby and Mike Gastineau are blockheads. I think that most of us here realize it, though.
June 29th, 2007 at 6:01 pm
LantermanC = AK
June 29th, 2007 at 6:06 pm
Lanterman,
I don’t discredit AK at all. He obviously thinks about basketball a ton and I respect his opinion. My points above are simply that AK seems to have written the whole offseason off already as a failure, and I think Presti warrants a little more patience than that. Even if the team is unchanged by the time the season opens, I’m excited as hell to see this product that Presti believes is the future of the franchise.
June 29th, 2007 at 6:06 pm
We all have our ideas, right or wrong, but AK brought his bashing upon himself, maybe even intentionally with his pompous tone.
June 29th, 2007 at 6:09 pm
Lanternman,
I couldn’t disagree with you more about Allen for the following reasons.
** He’ll be 32 next month, in his 12th year. History shows that jump shooting SG’s start to break down at that point. See Allan Houston, Mitch Richmond, Steve Smith and Glen Rice for comps. I’ll go with history and precedent until he proves me wrong, if he does.
** He’s coming off double ankle surgery.
** He’s a terrible defender.
** He’ll be going into a new system.
** He’ll have to share shots with Pierce and Jefferson. Integrating a star into an offense can be dicey (see Anthony-Iverson this year)
This is not a discussion of what he’s done in the past. It’s what he’s going to do in the future. In regards to attitude, I’m just the facts, baby.
June 29th, 2007 at 6:25 pm
No, I don’t think that this off-season is a complete and utter failure. It’ll take a lot of moves to get it back on track, however. Yet, regardless of whatever happens within the next few months, it’s impossible to alter the fact that Sam Presti traded Ray Allen elsewhere for a dime on the dollar.
Anyhow, on another note, my tone is usually of a harsh and brash nature. Okay, sure, some people aren’t too fond of my abrasive style; nevertheless, it’s a part of how I express myself. Besides, I’d be relatively boring without that quirk of mine.
Lastly, I’ve currently got a post in moderation that includes some decent material, so I suggest that y’all look out for it.
June 29th, 2007 at 6:43 pm
“I can’t see the Sonics trading Nick, only because he is what Presti preaches about needing…. Physical, Hard worker…Grinder…Good IQ, etc…. He’s another quality Glue guy”
Pres, I have been reading the hundreds of posts in this forum for the last 24 hours which is a ton of reading. It’s so refreshing to hear your sentiments on keeping Collison. I don’t think I stated them in my defense of him a few days ago as eloquently as you. What I am still mulling over is this 2-3-4 Durant-Lewis-Green thing. It almost feels like we are trying to rationalize this “there are no numbers in postions” thing. I like the structured text book approach to many things and I like the way Collison would fit in to that system. I have to admit all this reading has opened my eyes to many different approaches to building a championship caliber team. I am unwavering on my feeling that we need a veteran to be added to lead this captain-less team. Something Downtown eluded to. I don’t mind being patient about it’s acquirement either. I just hope it gets done and Presti isn’t finished. The most exciting thing is we do seem to have some really solid young players out there that will run the floor. I don’t know why I am leaning toward Rick Carlisle to run this team either, I just do. Perhaps the two notions are tied together? Go Sonics.
June 29th, 2007 at 6:44 pm
Green has a fair number of doubters and didnt rank him quite as highers as did anyone past 3.
If Walton worked out, I think pretty good chance Green will. Diaw didnt have the weight early in career. Green might not end up the real #2, maybe the #3 or #4 but could be a piece of something that works.
This writeup on Green is worth a look
http://www.hoopsanalyst.com/0607ew12.htm
Doesnt resolve his potential or position but has some worthwhile detail
June 29th, 2007 at 6:45 pm
AK, you’re thoroughly boring with that “quirk” of yours; you’d at least be more tolerable without it. I realize that your immaturity is part of how you express yourself, but that’s in no way a justification of said immaturity.
June 29th, 2007 at 6:50 pm
By the numbers he looks more similar to regular regulars than an all-star, even less on scoring but better on FG%. But these number are averages for guys who hit and miss and Green can also do either. If he doesnt play mainly SF then the unknown factor is even greater.
June 29th, 2007 at 6:59 pm
Durant gets a good writeup there. Durant’s scoring can compensate for any weakness there for Green and Green’s passing can compensate for Durant’s underdeveloped passing to date? Presti apparently saw it that way but together are they strong or closer to average? If there is synergy it could be strong.
June 29th, 2007 at 7:01 pm
“Sam Presti traded Ray Allen elsewhere for a dime on the dollar.”
No, he did the exact opposite. He traded Allen at the apex of his value for a young building block who plays at both ends of the floor. Allen’s trade value will decrease exponentially after next season. The propr move was made.
June 29th, 2007 at 7:08 pm
I think one overlooked factor in getting Green has to do with chemistry. Durant and Green have a history. Two building blocks that you know can play with each other.
June 29th, 2007 at 7:12 pm
There arent many if any certainties for Sonics next year.
June 29th, 2007 at 7:17 pm
Zach is any of your recent or future podcasts deal heavily with Sonics let us know.
June 29th, 2007 at 7:30 pm
Anybody know much about Durant’s or Green’s teammate at forward and whether they played better with them?
June 29th, 2007 at 7:39 pm
I think Ewing’s son played the SF position at Georgetown. I know Wallace, Jessie Sapp, and River’s son were their guards. Big Hibbert was the center and defensive player of the year in the Big East as you indicated TK.
June 29th, 2007 at 7:39 pm
I assume we will get a health report on zerbi and tht the sonics doctors were or will be satisfied. If they get 70 games out of him that will make a difference in judging the trade as opposed to 45 or 20. he had a lead on surgery compared to Allen so hopefully will be ready to go.
June 29th, 2007 at 7:42 pm
If the Sonics are indeed in rebuilding mode and don’t mind 25-30 games the next two seasons, I think picking Branden Wright would have been the better choice. The criticism of his game is the same criticism that Chris Bosh received after his freshman year in college. Wouldn’t you all agree that Wright’s ceiling (e.g. Chris Bosh) is much higher than Green’s?
June 29th, 2007 at 7:49 pm
A successful off-season for AK1984: Find a way to bring Antonio Daniels back to Seattle.
*runs off and hides before AK can call me a blockhead/dolt/idiot/fartmonger/incompetent tool etc etc etc.
June 29th, 2007 at 7:57 pm
I hear you Keith about A Miller. He has been a recommended target now and then here. The young guys will need to learn to play right and win with some PG- ridnour, Waton, West or whoever. Miller has a pretty good track record. but sixers have to put him on market first… maybe Feb. or next summer.
June 29th, 2007 at 8:05 pm
Whats this crap about Marion going to Portland? I can’t find the rumor anywhere on the internet.
June 29th, 2007 at 8:11 pm
Thanks Alex, looks like neither Kevin or Jeff played with a very strong forward this year. Whole new ball game.
June 29th, 2007 at 8:18 pm
I agree AK Morris Almond was underrated and probably does well.
Good luck Green Tea.
Summer league not enough basis to draw much information about Durant/Green positions but it starts in a week or so.
June 29th, 2007 at 8:30 pm
You guys are really buying what the sonics spin machine is selling aren’t you? I mean, AK is dead on when he says we got swindled on the Allen deal. Plain and simply, it was an unnecessary move made at the worst possible time. In the most important upcoming year of the franchise, they blow it up. Awesome.
And anyone who doesn’t think that Clay is in full cost-cutting mode right now need only look at how we sold the 31 pick and dumped the 35. What a joke.
This is a team that would have been in the playoffs next year with Ray, Rashard, Durant, and a contributor from the 31/35 picks. Now this team is the surest lottery lock in the league. I’ve really never seen such a bunch of blind sheep as those that make up the majority of this blog. But Clay is glad to have you I’m sure.
June 29th, 2007 at 9:01 pm
“And anyone who doesn’t think that Clay is in full cost-cutting mode right now need only look at how we sold the 31 pick and dumped the 35.”
Full cost cutting mode eh? Explain something to me then oh genius. If we’re in full cost cutting mode, which team is actually going to have to pay more in salary next year because of the deal yesterday, Seattle or Boston?
Hint, it’s the team you’re claiming is in ‘full cost cutting mode’.
“This is a team that would have been in the playoffs next year with Ray, Rashard, Durant, and a contributor from the 31/35 picks.”
Why the hell would you have expected a contributor from either of those picks? Good god people have gone stupid in the last day.
June 29th, 2007 at 9:04 pm
AK has a bunch of aliases.
And too much time on his hands.
June 29th, 2007 at 9:08 pm
Yes Scott, you have gone stupid. If you don’t think that Glen Davis or Fazekis or even a Gabe Pruit could have given this team minutes then you don’t really know much about basketball. Plus, they could have packaged the picks and gotten back a late first rounder or at least drafted a Euro they could develop over seas for a couple years like the Spurs do.
And do you really think that this team now is better than it would have been with Durant and keeping Ray and Rashard??? Boy, you really must love Jeff Green.
June 29th, 2007 at 9:10 pm
Ninja Jordan, is your alias Clay Bennett?
June 29th, 2007 at 9:15 pm
I dont feel like I am buying or rejecting. It happened, time will tell. If Allen brings Celtics playoffs 2 out of 3 next years then they won. If he doesnt they didnt. If Sonics get playoffs say 2 or more times in next 4 years (to allow Green to grow into it) then they probably won or broke even.
June 29th, 2007 at 9:21 pm
“If you don’t think that Glen Davis or Fazekis or even a Gabe Pruit could have given this team minutes then you don’t really know much about basketball.”
Glen Davis is not going to beat out Swift, Collison or Wilcox for minutes, neither is Fazekis. Gabe Pruitt is a player I’d like to have, as a third PG. He’s not better than West, Ridnour or Watson.
“Plus, they could have packaged the picks and gotten back a late first rounder or at least drafted a Euro they could develop over seas for a couple years like the Spurs do.”
Sure they could have, but not in terms of trading up into the late first round to do so. None of the teams at the end of that round ended up doing anything more than selling thier picks.
You still haven’t answered as to how exactly we’re cost cutting and yet the ones spending more in the coming season.
“And do you really think that this team now is better than it would have been with Durant and keeping Ray and Rashard???”
I’m not sure, I need to see what they do from now until October. I wasn’t a fan of the Ray/Lewis/Durant trio thinking. I know I certainly believe that Presti knows what he’s doing, and am willing to give him time to shape the team the way he wants it. I believe this is Kevin Durants team, read every comment I’ve made since the 22nd and I’m consistent as hell. I wish they’d gotten back Theo instead of Wally, but that deals highway robbery for the Sonics.
June 29th, 2007 at 9:21 pm
Here’s the thing. With these moves, we have aquired a true superstar in Durrant, which is great. But we’ve also drafted two guys who we HAVE to play at the small forward position, and somehow I think that Rashard isn’t going to be too thrilled to come back.
Then, what you’ve really done is potentially stunt Durrant’s development by making him the only go-to guy on a crappy team. Yeah he’ll score, and Green will improve, yadda yadda yadda. They will also both learn what it feels like to lose 75% of the time, and that is a very dangerous thing to put the future of your franchise through.
If you all are right and this team is somehow competitive, and somehow keeps fan interest enough to get a new arena built, and if Ray falls off the planet like you all suggest, and if a sign and trade for Rashard brings us a quality point or 4…then I will do cartwheels and apologize to you all. But that is an awful lot of “ifs”, and the bottom line is that they didn’t need to do it, and the team is far worse now than it was when we were counting on adding Durrant and re-signing Rashard.
June 29th, 2007 at 9:22 pm
“Ninja Jordan, is your alias Clay Bennett?”
Um, ok.
June 29th, 2007 at 9:24 pm
I was p$ssed when I first heard about the trade because I just love Ray as a person and a player.
TK’s right, the jury’s out. If Green pans out, it’s a good trade. If not, it’s not. Simple as that. I think we could’ve drafted for need a bit more, but whatevs. This team is weak at the point, but maybe Presti is counting on Durant as a point-forward-type. I don’t buy the “interchangeable parts-positions” argument. This team is full of 3-4-5’s, and no sg. More trades to follow, I’m sure.
I do think Ray will score 29ppg on that team this upcoming season. I also believe he’ll give up 31ppg…
June 29th, 2007 at 9:25 pm
“If Allen brings Celtics playoffs 2 out of 3 next years then they won. If he doesnt they didnt”
31-51 might get you the 8 spot in the east. Making the playoffs in that conference is nothing to write home about. Advancing in the East playoffs could raise some eyebrows. Making it to the East Finals might even get you noticed. The Sonics were as good as the 6 or 7 team in the East last year, IMO.
June 29th, 2007 at 9:25 pm
“TK Says: Allen brings Celtics playoffs 2 out of 3 next years then they won. If he doesnt they didnt. If Sonics get playoffs say 2 or more times in next 4 years (to allow Green to grow into it) then they probably won or broke even.”
Boston making the playoffs in the East is slightly different than Seattle making the playoffs in the West, don’t you think?
June 29th, 2007 at 9:27 pm
Um Scott, THEY SOLD THE 31ST PICK! If you don’t think that is cost-cutting, then I don’t know what to tell you.
Plus, and I don’t know for sure how these things work, but I’m guessing that if Wally sits for half a year, some of that contract is covered by insurance, so given his track record, Clay probably saves money even in the short term.
But the long term is what he is looking at, since he doesn’t see himself in Seattle past this year. His philosophy seems to be get young, get rid of the biggest long term contract, and get the hell out of town. And I can’t believe you are on board.
June 29th, 2007 at 9:31 pm
I dont think either team is odds on to make playoffs next season. Boston wouldnt have without the trade; we had a pretty good chance to fight Hornets for 8th seed and yes personally I would have preferred that (along with implications to franchise) but Presti and Bennett say that isnt enough for them. they do what they want so ok build for more and they should have to get to second round or beyond within 4-5 years to make giving up the shortterm appear worth it in retrospect.
The second rounders arent a big deal given the roster spread. I would have preferred to pick some guys just to see but didnt happen.
Coach is pretty make or break.
June 29th, 2007 at 9:36 pm
This is also going to look really bad if they don’t sign Rashard. Then it looks even more like cost cutting IMO.
June 29th, 2007 at 9:37 pm
Ryan,
Back to beating the drum I’ve been beating all day.
Multiple positions and hybrid players, say hello. Offense only guys, start packing.
Or
The Sonics will not be using a traditional 1/2/3/4/5 lineup.
Sometimes they will go big. Sometimes, they will go small. They will be a matchup nightmare for opposing teams. It will also allow the coaches to do all kinds of things. Sam Presti is going to continue to build this team around athletic, defensive minded, interchangeable parts. I think the Sonics will use a 9 or 10 man rotation. I also don’t think the Sonics are done. I think there will need to be an upgrade at PG.
June 29th, 2007 at 9:41 pm
mtp,
Everything I’ve seen Presti say supports my feeling that he’s going to use a multi-positional team. Do you have any sources that I don’t that lead you to not buy that strategy despite all the quotes that seem to indicate otherwise?
Please note, this is not a snarky comment. You make pretty well reasoned posts for the most part, so I wanted to give the benefit of the doubt.
June 29th, 2007 at 9:42 pm
Daniel Ewing was waived by the Clippers. He is a bigger, defensive-minded PG/SG.
June 29th, 2007 at 9:43 pm
People are acting like Durrant actually fits that description Jeremy. That is just crazy. He is the ultimate offense guy. He is much more like Dirk or Tracy than Duncan. I’m just blown away that people don’t see that.
I just fear that this team is being built like the current Lakers. One great scorer, all world player, and a bunch of role players. How’s that working out in LA Jeremy? You need at least two stars, and we had them. So sad.
June 29th, 2007 at 9:47 pm
East and west playoff challenges are different so maybe Boston has better odds.
Ryan and Ak and others who dont like the deal have a case that I am listening to along with the company spin and everything in between. I could see the deal being a bust in retrospect. I dont have the energy or confidence to predict the odds. If it doesnt work Presti should get heat. I am not sure the moment when that heat is fair but if it seems like a bust he’ll get more of that feedback-based on some evidence over just the gut feelings folks already have.
Bennett is nearly beyond feedback.
June 29th, 2007 at 9:48 pm
Who is this mythical multi-talented defensive swing man hybrid team everyone is hoping we become? Is there any historical evidence to suggest this works? The Spurs aren’t like that. The Pistons aren’t like that. They both have big-time scoring from the 2 guard and dominant bigs. Like we were set to have two days ago…
Look, if Presti reinvents the wheel, then great. But it’s a huge risk.
June 29th, 2007 at 9:48 pm
I think if the sonics were to have a winning season in 2007-8, it could reasonably benefit a push for a new arena. However, I don’t think a losing season really hurts the arena push as much as a winning season would benefit, if this makes any sense.
Anyway, I would honestly rather have Rashard than Ray. I think the legitimacy of the resigning effort (i.e. big paper contract) will tip the scales of judgement towards an honest rebuilding effort vs. just blowing the whole team up.
More than ever this team needs Ra.
June 29th, 2007 at 9:50 pm
Is there some welcome party for Durant nobody his aware of tomorrow? Copied this from the Seattle Times board:
“Greenlake, NOON tomorrow
Welcome to Seattle- Kevin Durant.
He will be welcomed by other Seattle Sports figures- including Shaun Alexander, JJ Putz, and Lorenzo Romar.
They were trying to get Green there as well, but I don’t think he will be there.
Basically it will go from 12-1pm.
Also, Spencer Haywood, Slick Watts, and Bob Blackburn.
PEACE.”
June 29th, 2007 at 9:51 pm
I heard that there will be a greeting for Durant tomorrow at green lake at 12pm tomorrow. Is this true? If not, does anyone know where? I would love to go out and support him.
June 29th, 2007 at 9:54 pm
lose rashard for nothing- blasting them will be pretty much in order on several levels. the case for cap space down the road is a tepid one. Lewis S&T might be good, bad or neutral. sign rashard and have a good plan to use all the talents might get applause. or might prove a conservative answer, a mess, and lead to future moves.
June 29th, 2007 at 10:05 pm
Jeremy, is there a team that you can think of that is this “hybrid type” team? (really asking, not being snarky either).
The only ones I see having success with that type of philosophy are offensive minded teams. I think the reason for that might be because when you are talking about creating mismatches, it is much easier to create a mismatch on offense than it is on defense. I mean, just b/c you throw out a bunch of 6-9 defensive forwards, you still have to guard legit centers and good point guards right? I just think that the hybrid player argument is one best made with an offensive philosophy, at least as the league sits now.
June 29th, 2007 at 10:08 pm
Delonte West offensive stats at SG & PG and against stong and weak teams about the same. He played better against the west and much better the longer he played (as many do as coaches reward good play). He had a slow start with synthetic ball but was pretty solid the rest of the year.
June 29th, 2007 at 10:09 pm
“You need at least two stars, and we had them. So sad.”
ya, we did have them, and we had 2 straight 30 win seasons, so sad.
June 29th, 2007 at 10:12 pm
“you still have to guard legit centers and good point guards right?”
how are we losing out on guarding legit centers? we still have wilcox/collison/swift/petro who im sure will all see many minutes if they arent traded
and what point guards aren’t we going to be able to block now? the one position we actually added to beside SF yesterday was point guard with the addition of west
and if you think replacing ray allen with any of our SFs will make us worse defensively, then i must take a moment to laugh, because ray allen couldn’t guard anyone
June 29th, 2007 at 10:12 pm
Right, because we wouldn’t have also had Durant with them next year. Think Brice, think!
June 29th, 2007 at 10:14 pm
Brice, I too shall laugh if you think acquiring Durant and Green all of a suddenly makes us a formidable defensive team.
June 29th, 2007 at 10:17 pm
“Right, because we wouldn’t have also had Durant with them next year. Think Brice, think!”
oh i see, so the problem isn’t defense, its just we need more offense. as has been said many times before, you put durant/shard/ray on the floor on the same time, that means you have to take your PF out of the game and run small, which weakens our already stragling defense even more! (and arent you the one already complaining about “how are we gonna defend big men now?” yet your solution is to shrink our 4 spot?)
think ryan, think!!!
June 29th, 2007 at 10:18 pm
“Brice, I too shall laugh if you think acquiring Durant and Green all of a suddenly makes us a formidable defensive team.”
makes us more formidable than ray and durant, im sure even you can agree on that one
June 29th, 2007 at 10:20 pm
Ryan is correct that good defensive stats like blocks and steals in college arent a certainty of good nba defense.
As for models of versatile defenders Spurs, Pistons Heat can be studied, even Dallas (using big centers as part of it) Cant compare Seattle strongly to one yet.
June 29th, 2007 at 10:21 pm
Works pretty well for Phoenix and Dallas. But then again, they build around their strengths. We on the other hand, seem to have forgotten that we drafted Durant, NOT ODEN! Durant would thrive in an up-tempo offensive game, which we could have played perfectly until Presti/Clay decided to blow it up.
Do you honestly think that the best way to get the most out of the most talented offensive player in draft history is to tell him “uh, we plan to slow it down and play lots of defense.” Great.
June 29th, 2007 at 10:22 pm
Our two stars largely did the same thing too: shoot. Whereas now Green does little things and Durant carries the load.
June 29th, 2007 at 10:24 pm
So then, you all are happy to get marginally better on D and get MUCH worse on offense? I just don’t understand that.
June 29th, 2007 at 10:24 pm
Chicago might be particularly worth looking at on both sides of the court.
June 29th, 2007 at 10:26 pm
Chicago!?! That is our model??? (punching self in the face…)
June 29th, 2007 at 10:27 pm
how are we MUCH worse on offense?
in a couple years Durant will provide more offense than ray ever did, and next year he should provide close to if not equal numbers. if we truly resign rashard, then we technically GAINED offense by swapping durant for ray. While at the same time acquiring a solid 3/4 guy who can go in at the 3 while keeping wilcox/collison at the 4 if we want to slow it down, or go in at the 4 in replace of wilcox/collison if we want to speed it up.
obviously this is just assuming the roster doesnt change and we re-sign rashard
June 29th, 2007 at 10:31 pm
“AK has a bunch of aliases.
And too much time on his hands.”
To Ninja Jordan:
F*** you.
Good Times,
Anthony King
P.S.: You’re a c*ntish b*tch who doesn’t know a godd*mn thing about me.
June 29th, 2007 at 10:35 pm
Brice, I don’t think you realize how rare 26ppg guys are in this league. But I do agree, Durant hopefully will exceed Ray on offense, and play some better D. but we are not disagreeing about Durant. You have to look at it as Green vs. Ray, and in the next couple of years, we lost huge on offense, and I honestly don’t know how much D Green brings.
Next year, our current lineup (assuming no changes of course) is in fact MUCH WORSE on offense that it would have been without the trade. Now if Green turns out to be the next Rodman or Ben Wallace, then great. But nothing I saw suggested he was a stopper, and I know for a fact he ain’t averaging 25 the next two years.
Bottom line, someone explain how you build a defensive minded team around Durant. Please. I really want to know.
June 29th, 2007 at 10:35 pm
going constantly fast like phoenix or golden state doesnt seem a likely Presti preference but going san antonio slow may not happen either. I’d guess Sonics pace will be similar to last season, in between not far from average but coach and the defensive success and pg leadership will determine. if you have a lot of confidence in your point guard trying to run is ok by me.
June 29th, 2007 at 10:37 pm
Durant will start from day 1, receive the majority of touches on offense, and be depended upon to carry the load offensively. I would be surprised if he doesn’t top 20ppg as a rookie and run away with the ROY award. Allstar is an outside possibility as well, if the team is decent.
June 29th, 2007 at 10:41 pm
I mentioned chicago as a team to study. I dont immediately know what to follow , what to reject, and doubt you’d take it whole cloth. but they have some big young forwards who might give some suggestions about what they can and cannot do in nba though every player is different.
June 29th, 2007 at 10:41 pm
Since I’m just completely tired of debating with people who just don’t get it, I’ll let Ryan take over for arguing the dissenting side of this case. Also, I’d like to thank the likes of Scott, Steve, and TK for taking the moderate point of view. Lastly, I’m in utter shock that there’s so many folks who’ve bought into Clay Bennett’s scheme; yet, as the old adage goes, “there’s a sucker born every minute.”
June 29th, 2007 at 10:43 pm
“yet, as the old adage goes, “there’s a sucker born every minute.””
so which minute were you?
June 29th, 2007 at 10:45 pm
So what about the Durant welcoming party Noon tomorrow @ Green Lake?
June 29th, 2007 at 10:48 pm
“there’s a sucker born every minute.”
Apparently most of the national media are suckers, as they’ve lauded the move.
June 29th, 2007 at 10:48 pm
[...] ay being all that interested in that down the road.” Brian Robinson of SC.com thinks that it is Ray’s personality that would preclude him from a [...]
June 29th, 2007 at 10:50 pm
If Durant could do Kirilenko type stuff, steals, rotations and shot intimidations and some blocks and good rebounding that might be a piece in the deal.
I dont know enough about Delonte West but watching some clips he made some good defensive plays with reach and hops and throwing the body into it. Not comparing quality but I got a hint of a Dennis Johnson type feel.
Green we will see.
Swift I have an image of I hope he will deliver on.
Collison, Gelabale, Watson, you could pontentially put it together.
June 29th, 2007 at 10:51 pm
So just to confirm, there is not one person here who can explain how building a defensive oriented team around Durant makes any sense right?
June 29th, 2007 at 10:53 pm
I was not a big Green fan heading into the draft. so getting a guy that I was not high on who duplicates other players is not a great situation for me.
On the other hand, I think we are better we were at the end of the season.. Probably not the 12 games needed to make the playoffs but better.
June 29th, 2007 at 10:53 pm
i havent read all 200 comments, but where are you getting this “defensive oriented team” idea from?
June 29th, 2007 at 10:58 pm
From Sam Presti. And from all of you who seem to think that we are better off without Ray Allen b/c he “doesn’t play D”
June 29th, 2007 at 11:00 pm
My 2 cents on the trade….
I hated it at first - but am finding myself open to it .
No doubt in my mind the trade makes the Sonics worse the next 2-3 years. We will miss Allen - he was a stud & I think has gas in the tank for 2-3 more all-star level seasons. Having Allen on the court & in the locker room would have been a huge help to Durrant. Oh Well…
On the other side…. If Green becomes a stud & solid Sonics for 8-10+ years… we are much better off starting in 2-3 years from now.
Wally Z is a negative that we had to take - D. West??? We’ll see - maybe he will be a good contributor.
So is this a good trade or a bad trade? In the now & short term probably bad but in the near future and beyond hopefully good or great.
Bottom Line… Time will tell & it pretty much depends on Jeff Green & how good - or disappointing - he ends up being. It’s all about Jeff Green delivering some serious hoops.
June 29th, 2007 at 11:01 pm
I havent tracked down a notice Matthew but I believe it to be the case.
It will be hard to score losing Allen in the mix with going for longterm success. Losing Payton failed, looking back at 4 1/3 years. But keeping him probably would have too under the old regime and not quite ever getting it together. Like with cooking or baking maybe, close realy isnt close. got to get a lot of things right.
The nba star system is a reality and part of Ak’s case is based on that. But in the end they have to be the right stars and right support cast and somethings werent right in how it was put together here as we discuss over months and years.
June 29th, 2007 at 11:03 pm
just because I say I want more emphasis placed on players with defensive skills, doesn’t mean I want a “defensive oriented team”
I haven’t seen or heard sam say anything about wanting a “defensive oriented team”, just wanting to focus on adding defense to the team, a team that hasn’t had anything in the remote area of defensive skills the last 4 years
June 29th, 2007 at 11:05 pm
To Brice, Ninja, Scott and the rest, I guess we will just have to agree to disagree. I’m not going to convince you that this trade sucked, and you are not going to convice me that this trade improved the team in any measurable way.
B/c I am a huge fan, and b/c I really, really hope they stay in Seattle, I hope you all are right, and that we sign Rashard (or get equal value in a trade) and that this team captures the city’s interest enough to get that arena built. I’ll go on the record as saying I don’t see it. What I see is a last place team next year, relying on two rookies which is a recipe for disaster.
I 100% believe that this team would have been a playoff team next year with Ray, Rashard, Durant, and a legit title contender in 2-3 years, but I guess we’ll never know.
I’m an old man and must get my rest. You will hear from me again.
June 29th, 2007 at 11:06 pm
“I, therefore, am less than amused at your asinine generalization.”
Here we go again with the holier than thou stance, AK. Give me a break. Like EJ, I hope that I never walk into your 7-11. There’s never any humility in your comments…
Jeff Green will not be a bust, and if you think that your trade ideas are somehow better than Sam Presti’s why don’t you go back to school and try to become a GM? Being a GM is about a lot more than coming up with a quick trade idea that works on RealGM.com . Presti has been called a “resident genius” by Popovich for good reason, and I don’t have much doubt that Jeff Green will be a good player.
IMO this move showed that Presti is actually smarter than the rest of us who spend a few minutes blogging at this site and expressing our opinions instead of hours and hours poring over facts, stats, video, etc.
————————————————————————-
By the way, your grotesque messages to Ninja Jordan are pretty inexcusable…and they remind us why you are stuck behind the counter at 7-11.
June 29th, 2007 at 11:11 pm
Ryan it is worth noting as you are getting at and not forgetting a Presti system in abstract would not start with Durant or at least th epopoular image of him. The system and the star do not match, unless they feel that Durant is “clay” who can be molded into Duncan or Kirilenko or whoever’s level defense in addition to the offensive game. Green is perhaps a surrogate for that but then you get back to whether you have an offense/defense biased pair or possibly 2 way strong players as with the most successful cores.
But I’m out for now.
June 29th, 2007 at 11:13 pm
Someone made a good point with respect to championship teams needing a SG that can flat out put the ball in the basket. The SGs for the last four NBA champions were studs on the offensive end (Ginobli, Wade, Rip, Ginobli). It should also be noted that these three guys are not defensive stalwarts. The Spurs of 1999 and 2003 didn’t really have that offensive stud at the SG but the Lakers did from 2000-2002. I heard the Bulls had a pretty good SG for six years in the 1990s.
June 29th, 2007 at 11:15 pm
Delonte West will be a GREAT contributor. THe guy suffered being caught up in Doc Rivers ever changing line-up and never was given a defined role. One week he’s starting, one week he’s coming off the bench, next week he’s not playing at all, etc. I really feel like he’ll not only contribute but bring some much needed edge and toughness the SOnics have lacked.
…in other news Brevin Knight was waived by the Bobcats. Anybody interested in him?
June 29th, 2007 at 11:20 pm
By the way, to the authors and contributors of this site…Great job. I know I’m the contrarian here w/r/t the trade, but you seem to have assembled a great bunch of passionate fans, and I hope that is a bigger indication that something will get done to save this team.
Good nite folks.
June 29th, 2007 at 11:22 pm
Putting the arena and relocation issue aside, I’d rather have this win 25-30 games next season than win enough games to get the #8 seed, only to be pounded by Tim “very important” Duncan’s team in five games. Next year’s draft will probably be more like the 2004-2005 draft in the sense that are more potential franchise-changing PGs than there were in this year’s draft (Rose, OJ, Gordon, some international prospect). The Sonic’s future at that position may be in college or overseas right now.
June 29th, 2007 at 11:27 pm
Ryan,
Sorry for the late response. I’ve been away for a little bit. Please don’t think I ignored your question.
I am basing my “hybrid team” off multiple quotes that I have seen and heard directly from Presti. I will go through and compile the quotes tomorrow that to me suggest that is where he is going.
It’s been done in part in Phoenix with their host of guys who can play 3 or 4 positions. Just about every team can “go big” or “go small”, ignoring the traditional 1-5 positions. Bruce Bowen does it quite a bit on defense, by picking up the opposition’s best player, regardless of position. Shawn Marion does as well, remember he guarded Dirk in one round and Tony Parker in the next. Offensively, positions don’t matter as much as most guys nowadays can play either in the post or on the perimeter. Robert Horry plays some 3 and some 4. I made a pretty substantial case earlier today on the value of hybrid players throughout the league.
I think Sam is onto something by taking the guys with the best “size to skill ratio” (direct quote from Sam). I would love to see someone try it. I don’t necessarily think he’s recreating the wheel. I think he’s exploiting a potential for value.
WRT Durant, he’s too good to pass on. He has the athletic ability and length to be a very good defender if he wants to be. In my opinion, his downside is Glenn Robinson and his upside is one of the greatest players to ever play.
We have Presti, Parry and Cho running the front office. That alone is considerable reason to be optimistic. The baseball equivalent would be signing Theo Epstein, Chris Antonetti and Jon Daniels to run the front office. I believe in these guys and I’m very excited to watch the Sonics when they come to town and on League Pass this year.
June 29th, 2007 at 11:35 pm
Let me let you in on a little secret folks…the team is far from being assembled. Hold on to your hats come Sunday and Monday.
-Lewis will be gone (Portland,Miami, or Orlando and YES Presti will trade him in the same division. Seattle and Portland will be joined at the hip for a while…this is a Pac Nor West market goldmine. Paul Allen and Clay Bennett are Billionaires for a reason kids)
-Luke will be gone (who cares)
-Collison will be gone (to Chicago in a possible Gordon or Duhoun trade)
-Billups will be inbound
-and for all you Portland fans, which I am becoming one by the second, cross your fingers because they’re going after Kevin Garnett.
Wish Ray Allen the best. It took me a year to get over Payton being gone, but the Sonics became better and he got a ring. Let’s hope the same scenario happens for Ray.
The state of the Sonics has nothing to do with Allen, Lewis, or Luke. Blame Wally Walker and Sund for being happy with not having the worst record. The team had no identity, especially after Nate left. It comes from the top. Sam Presti is doing the only thing he can do to save the team-pulling the trigger. Be patient. Be fans. Wish Lewis and Allen the best and get ready for a crazy NBA 4th of July.
-TRUST ME!
June 29th, 2007 at 11:38 pm
Alex Chan - do you think Rashard could be that SG who can flat out put the ball in the basket?
We all know Rashard makes his home around the perimeter anyway, and he has a very nice jumper and has great range, why not line him up at the 2?
I think he is quick enough to not let a guard blow past him, and his extra inches will help give him somewhat of a natural defensive edge over a guard.
and if you flip it to the other side of the court, what 2 guard out there is going to be able to guard rashard?
obviously this is just my brain running a little wild, but its intriguing to think about
June 29th, 2007 at 11:39 pm
Had one more stray thought- if chicago isnt enough offensive efficiency for you (it is fast pace though) then maybe look at Toronto. I dont think they are a great team or a stable team (they might bounceback a bit next season) but they do have good stat balance on both sides of the court. bosh bargnani garbojsa give them a modern feel.
p.s. ginobli and hamilton are among the best wing defenders out there. wade i dont feel like looking up but he probably can be good.
June 29th, 2007 at 11:48 pm
Ok, I can’t go to bed after all!
Jeremy, I don’t know if I suggested it, but if I did, I take it back! I would NEVER suggest passing on Durant. He is a stud, and possibly a future hall of famer. My problem is with the trade.
It is interesting that you brought up Phoenix when talking about “hybrid” guys, b/c that is exactly what I was thinking about also when I blasted this trade. I just only saw it with 2 hybrids (Rashard and Durant) and not three. The more I think about it, the more this trade makes even less sense if they do actually sign Rashard. I mean, how many teams have their 3 best players who all play the same position? Yeah they can rotate 2-3-4, but come on, not one of those guys is guarding D-Wade, Kobe or Ray Allen!
I think we can expect sign and trade. I hope.
June 29th, 2007 at 11:48 pm
GO Sonics! Let us put on the rose colored glasses and prove all these talking heads wrong. “The Choir Boy” Durant will garner the rookie of the year and J. “ever” Green will be the sixth man. Keep the Sonics in the Northwest. Talking heads, please, stop talking to us like we have left the region. Everytime I heard that we were leaving I wanted to jump on the stage and choke someone. SEATTLE ‘Sonics. The midwest can eat butt.
June 29th, 2007 at 11:54 pm
Ryan,
I would expect to see a bunch of different lineup. Here’s a hypothetical lineup.
Watson/West/Durant/Green/Swift
West is a good defender, Green by all accounts is a good defender, Watson is a good defender.
I happen to like West quite a bit. I could see him as an Antonio Daniels type guard. I don’t think that Lewis will be resigned, but if he was, you could just as easily see the following lineups at different points in the game.
West/Lewis/Durant/Green/Swift
West/Lewis/Durant/Green/Collison
I don’t expect Ridnour, Wilcox or Wilkens to be on the club this year. I think they will be traded.
I hope that explains what I am expecting to see this year.
June 29th, 2007 at 11:56 pm
Ryan - I understand where you are coming from, but honestly, who CAN guard Kobe/Wade/Allen
these guys are all stars for a reason, they are unguardable
June 29th, 2007 at 11:59 pm
Allen is not in the same class as Wade and Kobe …Bowen shut Allen down on the regular.
June 30th, 2007 at 12:02 am
I hope you are right about West Jeremy, but lets just say I have my doubts about a guy who couldn’t consistently start for the C’s (I know, I know, Doc Rivers is kinda dumb)
But just think about the West/Lewis/Durant/Green/Insert Center Here lineup. Yeah they’d be pretty fun to watch, but I see any veteran team with a solid back court simply tearing that team up. I don’t know how any of our 3 SF’s in that lineup could guard a decent 1 or 2, and if you put West on the 2 guard, well, lets just say the other team’s point guard would have a pretty good day.
I think more moves must be coming, and I don’t see Rashard fitting with Presti’s new team, unless Green is just a sixth man. In which case, is that really worth Ray?
June 30th, 2007 at 12:06 am
Ryan,
I read a quote the other day from Presti wanting to put in a “team defense” scheme. I think that’s the key to making this thing work. If you look at San Antonio this year, they played better team defense than I’ve seen in a long while. While they have great individual defenders in Bowen and Duncan and a very good defender in Ginobli, they also have Parker, Finley and Barry, none of whom are good defenders.
While a SG may be able to break down a SF one on one, the Sonics would have a MASSIVE size advantage all game long. Could you imagine Kobe having to deal with Durant for 40 minutes?
June 30th, 2007 at 12:07 am
Matthew: If Bruce (rules…what rules???) Bowen can shut down Allen, what exactly do you think he could do to Durant/Green?
June 30th, 2007 at 12:08 am
“So just to confirm, there is not one person here who can explain how building a defensive oriented team around Durant makes any sense right? ”
‘Defensive oriented’ is kind of vague but I think that much better defense is a better term. I dont think Presti is trying to turn us into East coast grinding style/Ben Wallace 40 minutes a game defense. He just wants to start by saying we wont give up 100 pts a game this year. He probably knows that Lewis and Durant can score on this team. Lets work on D.
Alot of people here seem to go all the way to one side or the other in terms of trying to decipher exactly what Presti is doing. I really feel like he is trying to build the most versatile team he can, even though it looks a little imbalanced rite now. Justlook how the Spurs played . Win with 80 one night and 110 the next. Versatility. I have some faith.
June 30th, 2007 at 12:09 am
Jeremy, with all due respect, I truly believe that Kobe would hit for 80 if Durant was guarding him next year.
June 30th, 2007 at 12:13 am
Ryan,
I agree, and I don’t think I communicated my last point very well. We wouldn’t see Kobe going 1 on 1 with Durant. We would see different guys each taking turns guarding Kobe. We would see creative double teams, which is what just about every team does to Kobe. Maybe they would trap him to take the ball out of his hands.
Team defense is the key here.
June 30th, 2007 at 12:16 am
Green and West would take turns guarding players like Kobe.
June 30th, 2007 at 12:19 am
I’m going to call it a night. Ryan, I’ve enjoyed the discussion with you. It’s nice to finally have a logical discussion with a fan on the opposite side of the trade. Tomorrow, I’ll start compiling my Presti quotes from the local rags. Thanks all for some good discussion.
June 30th, 2007 at 12:19 am
Ryan; Right now …he’d shut them down! My point was Allen is not at the level of Kobe and Wade and is the kind of player that can be shut down with just one defender.
June 30th, 2007 at 12:20 am
Ok, well we got what we got right? I do really hope that Green is awesome and I know Durant will fill it up. Where Rashard fits in, I’m not sure, but we’ll know more after we get a coach. (what a novel idea, figuring out who you want to coach this team huh!)
I guess I just don’t see the plan yet. I have faith that one of our 3-headed center monster will pan out, and I have faith in West after all the love on this blog. Still no faith in Luke, Wilcox (especially given the trade) and in the general philosophy, but time will tell. Like I said, if this team competes for a playoff spot next year, I will be pleasantly suprised. And if Ray and Pierce come out of the East, I will be really pissed.
June 30th, 2007 at 12:27 am
If there is indeed a “Welcome Party” for Durant tomorrow at noon WHY IS NOBODY TALKING ABOUT IT! Shouldn’t a new thread have been made? Damn!
I’m going to go to Green Lake tomorrow just in case, hopefully people got word somehow …otherwise this is going to be embarrassing to the city to welcome Durant with a 100 fans and a bunch of randoms wandering up wondering whats going on.
June 30th, 2007 at 1:42 am
I think it’ll be interesting to see what happens with Green, I liken him a little bit to Derrick McKey who did a ton of little things right but never was that dominant offensive force.
One thing I’ll say where I disagree about having to have a dominant scorer at the SG and just say you have to have one of your two wings be a dominant scorer. Ginobili and Wade are great offensive players and the guy playing next to them on the wings are guys like Bowen and Posey.
I’m most interested to see what happens next. I’ll completely buy the cost cutting stuff if they just let Rashard walk, but until that happens I’m not going to go that route. I’d really like to know how much cash they got from Houston for the 31st pick, since I didn’t really value too much any of hte players being taken there and honestly never expected us to have more than two rookies on the team next year once we got Green I figured we were done. Had either Tiago Splitter or Rudy Fernandez slipped I would have been very upset had we sold the pick. For Glen Davis, Gabe Pruitt or Marcus Williams…eh.
I think Jeremy’s right in what Presti’s plan is. Watching San Antonio in these playoffs showed almost exactly what Sam wants to do. Every needs to forget a bit about the Cavs series but go back to the first three series. In the first round they beat Denver playing Denvers game till it became winning time then having the ability to adapt. In the second round they played the Suns and beat them in the Suns own game. Third round they went toe to toe with the Jazz and played physical defense with Bowen guarding Deron Williams. He’s not saying we have to be all world, but he wants guys who can move between positions and give us matchups where we don’t get burned on D but still have mismatches on O. That’s what good teams are able to do.
Based on what we’ve seen so far I’m not horribly opposed to the direction being taken, thus I’m looking at these next 3 months with an open mind. Getting nothing back for Lewis would be down right maddening, with Charlotte picking up Richardson that leaves only Orlando who can sign him outright (if they renounce Darko). That leads me to believe we’re either getting him back or doing something with a sign and trade.
June 30th, 2007 at 2:00 am
As everyone already said, big changes are coming. I highly doubt half of the SFs we have will still be with us by opening night.
Unfortunately, the most likely gone players are:
Wilkins, Gelebale, Rashard - the current sonics.
Nobody will take Wally Z off our hands,
and Sam Presti wants to build his MJ-Pippen with Durant and Jeff Green.
Wally Z better plays his hearts out on the floor and not b!tch up. He’ll have to be perfect to win my love for him. Maybe it was his cocky attitude and his fake-tan pretty boy look that rubs people off, many people dont like him - even my friends that don’t follow basketball.
But if he dives for lose ball, plays defense (lol), and be a servicable 6th man, I’m cool.
I actually like Delonte West, although he reminds me of a more “thuggish” Vanilla Ice. West will boost our backcourt, we can definitely use a defensive big guard with competitiveness.
His arrival makes Watson expendable; both were brought in for defensive purpose, except Delonte is a better shooter.
Right now, I am hopping we get a lock-down veteran point guard in return for Lewis.
Billups, Kidd, Jet-Terry are on top of my list.
Possible????
June 30th, 2007 at 2:34 am
WOW!
so this is the place where people can bash Ray… while the other topic people are pouring their heart out to him.
lets be honest its somewhere in the middle
June 30th, 2007 at 2:41 am
I get ill thinkin about having traded Allen for Yi, the invisible man. That ordeal could of slowed the development of the team, but Presti dodged outa that way of that mess.
Durant should transition nicely to shooting guard. Players like Jordan, Magic, Kobe, and Lebron have no problems playing out of their normal position, but they adjust and adapt to evolve the necessary skills to dominate. Nobody playing shooting guard will want to mess with Durant.
Presti will max out Lewis’s value one way or the other, hopefully producing another All-Star through the “Sonic Way.” The Final “piece,” will be added in next year’s draft. Portland’s out of the gates in two years, the Sonics are right behind the Blazers, but the rest of teams have all fallen down in what appears to be a pileup.
The Muckleshoots will do what it takes to get that arena and deal, so Bennet best settle in for a fight, or else he gonna keep it real and get the Sonics an arena within driving distance. It’s been awhile since we he had GP’s squad lighting things up. Durant and his boys are about ready to get the party started, so Oden and Roy best be gettin their crew prepared for some battles:
Jordan versus the league type wars.
Sky indeed is the limit for the Seattle Sonics.
June 30th, 2007 at 3:01 am
To James B.:
1. Affluence and crassness aren’t coinciding character traits. In fact, it appears that a lot of successful people in this world are repugnant individuals who frequently use vulgar language.
Besides, my scurrilousness was justified in that situation, for Ninja Jordan despicably claimed that I use pseudonyms other than my own on this website.
2. I’ve conceded that, on occasion, I’ve been incorrect about specific topics; hence, I’ve got a sense a humility.
3. By taking personal shots at me, you contradicted your inferred implication that personal shots are unwarranted in any way, shape, or form; ergo, you’re a hypocrite.
4. I’ve explained my reasoning behind why I believe that Jeff Green will be a bust in the NBA; thus, we’ll all just have to sit back, relax, and let time decide who’s correct in this instance.
June 30th, 2007 at 3:05 am
Dammit, my previous comment included an error.
As it was, I meant to write that affluence and crassness can be traits that are shared by a given individual. In all honesty, this whole situation has left me in somewhat of a befuddled state of mind.
Okay, I fixed that mistake.
June 30th, 2007 at 4:02 am
AK- Just out of curiousity, what pieces in the current sonic roster are you pleased with??? This is an honest question, as I have heard nothing but negative comments come from you about the team.
Thanks.
Your #1 fan, TheChef
June 30th, 2007 at 4:06 am
Durantula - that’s the kind of optimism I like to see!!!
June 30th, 2007 at 4:30 am
So what’s next for Presti?
Integrating Lewis to play alongside Durant?
Trading Lewis and change for J.Oneal?
Perhaps shipping Ridnour, Watson or West to the Cavs, Hawks or Blazers?
Can I please get a yes for Billups or Garnett?
I like the idea of giving Casey a chance. I imagine he would relate better with the players and he might be the next great coach.
June 30th, 2007 at 5:06 am
Zabian Dowdell will apparently be on our summer league squad.
Some mocks were considering him as one of our potentiel second picks, he went undrafted. Don’t know much about this guy
June 30th, 2007 at 5:08 am
I forgot I recorded the M’s game to watch, but this Sonic offseason is like X-mas…..I hope the Grinch doesn’t steal away all of the new presents.
June 30th, 2007 at 5:10 am
How about…
Wally, Petro, and Earl to the Cavs for Hughes and Gooden….
Or Wally straight up for Hughes…
Hughes can shoot and can play much better D than Wally, he can even play point and he goes along with Presti’s vision of having versatile, multi-faceted, defensive minded players…
Throwing Gooden into it for Earl clears us from our PG logjam and adds Gooden to an already busy frontcourt, which we could package a few of or just see which work best together…
June 30th, 2007 at 5:16 am
Don’t want Hugues on this team.
Maggette could be interesting and may be available with Al Thornton now with the Clippers. They still need a PG would they be interested in Watson ?
June 30th, 2007 at 5:27 am
I was thinking of Gibson, Pavlovic or Variwho on the Cavs.
Perhaps a pg for the Clip’s unprotected first round pick?
June 30th, 2007 at 5:45 am
(That was the Clipper’s 08 1st rounder).
Maybe Frye and/or Jack. Ridnour back in Oregon playing for a coach who appreciates his game?
June 30th, 2007 at 5:50 am
http://draftexpress.com/viewprofile.php?p=472
Dowdell could be interesting if we trade one (or two) of our PGs
June 30th, 2007 at 6:07 am
Have anyone heard anything on the muckleshoot proposal that was proposed 2-3 days ago?
June 30th, 2007 at 6:14 am
Wow, I’ve never seen anyone butcher Anderson Varejao’s surname in such an extreme way.
June 30th, 2007 at 6:32 am
Well, Durantula, I think that Nate McMillan was more fond of Antonio Daniels than Luke Ridnour. Additionally, all of you newer folks here need to take into account that it’ll be might difficult for Sam Presti to trade Ridnour, for he’s a base-year compensation this season due to his contractual status.
Furthermore, I can’t think of any feasible way whereby the Seattle Supersonics acquire either Kevin Garnett, Jermaine O’Neal, or Chauncey Billups. As it is, I suggest that we hold back on the pipe dreams.
Lastly, the acquisition of Delonte West would apparently make a combo guard such as Zabian Dowdell a superfluous addition to the team. Of course, the Seattle Supersonics roster is already full of redundant parts, so that doesn’t surprise me.
Lastly, I’m very iffy on the idea of trading for Larry Hughes (Opponent Efficiency Rating: +13.4); however, the thought of offering Wally Szczerbiak to the Cleveland Cavaliers for Hughes — who, oddly enough, are the complete antithesis of each other as basketball players — isn’t an entirely bad plan.
Unlike Szczerbiak, Hughes is a true shooting guard who plays solid man-to-man defense and, moreover, is an adequate ball-handler and distributor of the basketball. Yet, that notwithstanding, Hughes’ basic and peripheral statistics show that he’s an hideously poor player on offense. All things considered, though, Hughes’ deficiencies shouldn’t be a problem playing alongside Kevin Durant at the swing positions.
June 30th, 2007 at 9:29 am
“Wally, Petro, and Earl to the Cavs for Hughes and Gooden….
Or Wally straight up for Hughes…
Hughes can shoot and can play much better D than Wally, he can even play point and he goes along with Presti’s vision of having versatile, multi-faceted, defensive minded players…
Throwing Gooden into it for Earl clears us from our PG logjam and adds Gooden to an already busy frontcourt, which we could package a few of or just see which work best together…”
Larry Hughes is one of the most overpaid players in the NBA…he’s terrible.
Can’t see how that would really help the Cavs either, other than getting Hughes off the roster.
June 30th, 2007 at 9:49 am
“the insider”, most of what you stated could happen but “Billups will be inbound” seems pretty remote chance to me- for what? , why would he go for it?, why would Presti add a megasalary older guy when he said sustainable longterm plan? Billups with Ray and Rashard under a different owner, GM, plan would have been fine by me but I can’t see it with what is happening so far.
June 30th, 2007 at 10:36 am
WOW!
so this is the place where people can bash Ray… while the other topic people are pouring their heart out to him.
I hear that. I’d rather someone other than Brian had started the Farewell thread after what he posted here. Who are these great team sources? Are we talking Danny Fortson and Johan Petro - the Sonics brain trust?
June 30th, 2007 at 10:45 am
“I 100% believe that this team would have been a playoff team next year with Ray, Rashard, Durant, and a legit title contender in 2-3 years, but I guess we’ll never know.”
A title contender? Hehehe OK. Re-sign Rashard to a max or virtually max deal and the team is in salary cap hell, killing much of their flexibility for the next 5 years. For an example see Nuggets, Denver. No picks in this year’s draft and no room on the roster for them anyways, can’t even re-sign their own free agents without going dangerously close into lux tax territory, really don’t have any appealing trade assets, still not good enough to win a title.
June 30th, 2007 at 2:07 pm
I understand that lots of shooting guards suck after age 32. But I don’ think Ray Allen will be one of them. He keeps himself in good shape, he’s skinny, not heavy, and he’s not entirely one dimensional like Richmond or Rice. I dont think Jordan or Drexler were done until after 36. Its like when people say that the average running back is out of the league in 3 years, but this never applies to guys like LT or Shaun Alexander.
I belive the max contract thing sucks for NBA teams because guys whoaare merely good get them. But I think Ray Ray deserved a Max contract. If anything I really wanted improved team defense, which we got out of Green and West, but I was just hoping for more out of Ray. If it was Rashard that was traded (I realized he can’t be traded until tomorrow) then I’d be ok with it.
Also, someone up there said to preach patience, but then you could never bash a move until you could see if the move was bad. I agree with patience though, because it’s clear that Presti isn’t done. I don’t agree with his theory of versatile players who can play multiple positions (who on the Spurs can do this? Duncan and Ginobli? That’s it (if you count SG and SF different position and PF and C different positions). But I do agree with getting players who can play both offense and defense (Green and West), and players who can do one thing real well (Szczerbiak). It’s hard to bash Presti because I’m almost certain Wilcox, Lewis, and Ridnour will be gone, it just remains to be seen for what.
Oh yeah, I’m NOT AK. I don’t write like AK or even sound like AK you stupid fucks (haha, j/k), and I have my own website, if you click on my name you can see it. It’s not that great, more of a way to keep track of my sports thoughts and predictions, so don’t bother bashing it, I realize it’s not top class.
June 30th, 2007 at 6:42 pm
“Its like when people say that the average running back is out of the league in 3 years, but this never applies to guys like LT or Shaun Alexander.”
The exception to the rule does not prove the rule.
I heard the same thing about GP, it happened to him, it will also happen to Ray.
Comparing ray to Jordan or Drexler is doing all 3 a disservice; they weren’t the same type of player. Ray in his mid 30s has a much greater chance of following Mitch Richmond’s career path than Dale Ellis’, IMO. Dale bought into the fact he could be a role or bench player fairly soon into his early 30s (he has told me this himself) and that probably let him add on another 5 years to his career, at least.
July 1st, 2007 at 2:36 am
Durant vs. Oden?
That will turn into Durant vs. King James in a few years.
Bennett and his boys found themselves a little goldmine in Seattle. It’s all about the $$$ now and there is plenty of that in the Seattle area. Their mine in Seattle ain’t goin no where as they’ll be dumpin gold out of it for decades more. Who handed Bennett this goldmine?
July 1st, 2007 at 3:10 am
Presti should be having discussions about McGrady. Maybe that #31 pick was part of a Lewis deal.
I still like J. Oneal and Lewis could be happy with a financial commitment from the Pacers. They’d need their choice of Swift, Petro, Wilcox or Collison….but Wally World or Watson might have to be included too.
I can be a little happier with a defensive force like Oneal patrollin down low.
West
Durant
Green - Gelabale
Wilcox - Collison
Oneal - Sene
I like that championship caliber core, but Presti so far likes Lewis and Swift on the squad. Will another desperate team hand over some of their precious commodities like Boston? No shame in hoping.
July 1st, 2007 at 2:32 pm
“I hear that. I’d rather someone other than Brian had started the Farewell thread after what he posted here. Who are these great team sources? Are we talking Danny Fortson and Johan Petro - the Sonics brain trust?”
You’re exactly right Dick Tate. I found the whole essay pretty disappointing. Ray reacted to the trade with classy, showing no bitterness or anger. I wish the same courtesy could have been extended to him.
Brian — I appreciate all the work you do for this site and the SOS&S. I really do. But I have to ask — why write it now? If it was as bad as you make it sound, why not write it while he was still on the team? You were upset that people weren’t discussing the new player(s) enough. I get that. But was skewering the outgoing guy really the best way to get people refocused?
Your post also opens up a couple of questions for me. If a point guard can be so easily intimidated, does he really deserve to lead a team? I don’t know what issues Luke was dealing with, but I find this theory to be rather insulting. Far more so to Luke than Ray.
Also, “On the team there is very much a clique of “Ray’s guys” and there is a sense that Ray dictates the behavior and play of those guys. ”
A “sense?” What does that mean. Who’s sense? And, who are “Ray’s guys”? And what exactly does this dictated behavior entail? Your phrasing is both nebulous and indicting all at the same time. One almost wonders if they go around giving the “non-clique” guys swirlies or something.
July 2nd, 2007 at 11:41 pm
I couldn’t have said it better myself Hoopster.
If all of this was going on, why not write it before?
By writing it now, it just seems your trying to defend the trade.
If Luke was intimidated, he shouldn’t be in the NBA.
August 22nd, 2007 at 4:06 am
automated stock trading
This has to best my favorite article of 2007. I cant wait to read your next!
August 29th, 2007 at 12:54 pm
Jack
This article reminds me of a little 8 minute film(?) I watched the other day.
August 10th, 2008 at 10:43 pm
zimmer hip replacement
Today in an article titled ‘Zimmer Durom Cup Problems Highlight Need for Joint Registry’ the New Yorks time highlighted the recent controversy surround the Zimmer hip implant recall…