I’ve got a rumor
Posted on Thursday, July 12th, 2007 at 2:03 pm by Brian Robinson
Now this is very unsubstantiated but it does come from a guy down in Vegas where things are buzzing a bit. So have some fun with it.
According to this source the player the Sonics are currently discussing bringing in with their trade exception is Kurt Thomas of the Suns. In this scenario the Suns are looking to shave money off the luxury tax and will compensate the Sups for taking Thomas back. The deal could be just draft picks, the Suns have a ton of them. Also mentioned are that the Sonics “French Connection” of Petro and Gelabale could go to the Suns for a player. The Suns may also want Mo Sene who they tried to trade for last year. Barbosa anyone?
Thomas would be a decent veteran mentor to provide us with some insurance behind Swift and if taking his contract got us concessions on Barbosa it would get interesting. Barbosa and West can both bring the ball up the court and play either guard position. Thomas would come off the books after this season.
July 12th, 2007 at 2:06 pm
this rumor is EXTRA juicy!
July 12th, 2007 at 2:09 pm
I wouldn’t like trading Gelebale. Other than that, Thomas only interests me if Barbosa was included. Otherwise, what’s the point?
July 12th, 2007 at 2:11 pm
You know what they say: If its too good to be true…..
July 12th, 2007 at 2:17 pm
If we could land Atlanta’s 2008 unprotected pick as part of this - I would be all over it since Atlanta is sure to be awful again. Thomas seems like an old version of Collison - solid all around veteran. Adding Barbosa to the mix would be fantastic.
July 12th, 2007 at 2:17 pm
… it’s not true!!!
Sounds nice but i don’t believe a word of it…
July 12th, 2007 at 2:19 pm
Gelabale would be a damn nice bench player for the Suns. I like the idea. Would leave the team a little undersized in the front court behind Robert, but that’d still be a strong team. Barbosa would be a good fit here too.
July 12th, 2007 at 2:20 pm
if we could upgrade sene or petro to thomas as a veteran big man leader, upgrade gelabale to barbosa, and turn a 2nd rd draft pick into a 1st round pick
i would be happier than rashard was when he found out the magic were seriously gonna pay him all that money
July 12th, 2007 at 2:21 pm
Do they want to save money enough to send us the Hawks pick with Kurt Thomas ?
Would be a strange deal as his deal come off the books after this season but you just never know…
I would clearly take Thomas to facilitate another deal for Barbosa but only for Barbosa. But I don’t know how we could trade for him using Gelly and Petro (their contracts are simply too small)
July 12th, 2007 at 2:23 pm
Shawn - because there are BYC players involved, it works out (im pretty sure)
July 12th, 2007 at 2:24 pm
Take Barbosa with the exception, then trade Petro and Gelabale to the Suns is probably possible.
July 12th, 2007 at 2:30 pm
Somewhat of an overstatement there Brice….But I like your passion, for as misguided as it is, it nontheless is a passion…
Trade anyone rumored there except Sene…I have not given up on Sene yet.
July 12th, 2007 at 2:32 pm
Barbosa’s actual trade value right now is 2.8 million
Gelabale - $802,000
Petro - $1,077,120
Sene - $2,105,520
it looks like gelabale & petro wouldn’t meet the the 125% requirement, but sene & gelabale would
July 12th, 2007 at 2:33 pm
F-Rod: i’m just like most others knowing that it’s most likely “too good to be true”, but it’s still nice to have fun with rumors
July 12th, 2007 at 2:35 pm
Now this is very unsubstantiated but it does come from a guy down in Vegas where things are buzzing a bit. So have some fun with it.
If I was a Suns fan, I wouldn’t be having much fun with this.
July 12th, 2007 at 2:35 pm
DONT GIVE UP ON SENE !!!!
In a couple of years the Swift & Sene combo will be dominating the league at the center position !!!!
Who else is there around their age? Howard? He seems like the only competition.
July 12th, 2007 at 2:36 pm
Since the luxury tax threshold is $68M and the Suns payroll for next season is $76.4M, Thomas’s contract of $8M is costing Sarver $16M next season with the dollar-for-dollar penalty.
I keep reading he is adamant about not paying that tax so he might be willing to hand over that pick for $16M. They were handing away picks left and right this year for cash…$16M is a significant “cash consideration”.
What about the idea of Ridnour to Phoenix for Barbosa as part of a trade. Rid would fit their style perfectly and could play behind Nash until he winds down in a couple years. The signing of Hill cuts about half of Barbosa’s minutes right off the bat so they may not be able to utilize him fully the next few seasons.
July 12th, 2007 at 2:37 pm
I know the suns are WAY over the luxury threshold but this sounds way to onesided for the sonics. I personally dont want to lose Gelly but if we do indeed get Barbosa (the pick we should have made instead of Collison or Ridnour, what waste of picks at 12 and 14) in return I wouldn’t mind it.
July 12th, 2007 at 2:37 pm
You’re right Brice, I totally forgot about the BYC.
Would the Suns do that ? Really don’t know…
They were supposed to be ready to send us Marion and Barbosa for Lewis and the 10th pick just to save money so it could be for real.
I would LOVE it to be for real !
July 12th, 2007 at 2:39 pm
I doubt that Leandro Barbosa will be traded from the Phoenix Suns under any circumstances.
Anyway, regarding the rumor, the following is my attempt at making a reasonable trade proposal.
FROM PHOENIX & TO SEATTLE
PF Kurt Thomas ($8,091,187)
2008 First-Round Draft Pick
2008 First-Round Draft Pick (Via The Atlanta Hawks)
FROM SEATTLE & TO PHOENIX
PF Peter Fehse (Draft Rights)
SG Yotam Halperin (Draft Rights)
PG Paccelis Morlende (Draft Rights)
http://realgm.com/src_checktrade.php?tradeid=4097716
Well, there y’all have it.
July 12th, 2007 at 2:44 pm
Also, y’all don’t have a very sound understanding of the restrictions regarding a base-year compensation player nor the specifics of utilizing a trade exception.
For whatever it’s worth, the following two trade proposals that’ve been mentioned on here thus far don’t work under the rules and regulations of the collective bargaining agreement.
http://realgm.com/src_checktrade.php?tradeid=4097730
http://realgm.com/src_checktrade.php?tradeid=4097737
Again, I suggest that people learn certain stuff before attempting to have in-depth discussions about it.
July 12th, 2007 at 2:44 pm
I think the Suns would rather try to trade Diaw instead of Barbosa (his deal is clearly worse and he had a bad season)
Diaw for Gelabale and Petro is working with the trade machine, but this trade would make no sense for Seattle as Jeff Green is a similar player with probably more potential.
July 12th, 2007 at 2:44 pm
Thank you, AK. My summer is now complete.
July 12th, 2007 at 2:47 pm
Second round picks have value (salary wise) in a trade if I’m correct.
Barbosa for Petro+Gelabale+pick could work ?
July 12th, 2007 at 2:52 pm
Personally I think the Suns would eat the $16 million to keep Barbosa.
July 12th, 2007 at 2:54 pm
AK - of course the second one doesn’t work, you didn’t include the trade exception…unbelievable.
As far as Luke for Barbosa, I’m not going to get into minutiae about the deal - that’s what Presti and Cho are paid to do. In my opinion, Ridnour would be their ideal target, especially because Colangelo Sr. loves Luke (gave him a surprise invite to the US team) and they don’t have anyone remotely close to being able to pick up the slack for Nash as he winds down. Barbosa would be perfect for the Supes.
I’m sure our wunderkind can work something out if both sides want it - if that means throwing in picks or other players or whatever…they’ll get it done.
July 12th, 2007 at 2:58 pm
If Barbosa is not part of the Thomas deal (in some way, I suppose it cannot happen directly like that) then I don’t get it. Draft picks don’t quite get it done unless we are talking top 5 (which admittedly is possible with Atlanta).
The Sonics should pocket Sene and see what happens with him - force Petro on them.
Boy, Presti is going to make or break his legacy in a matter of 6 months.
July 12th, 2007 at 2:59 pm
Wow! That trade would be fantastic!
July 12th, 2007 at 3:00 pm
“Also, y’all don’t have a very sound understanding of the restrictions regarding a base-year compensation player nor the specifics of utilizing a trade exception.”
oh, i understand it very clearly
barbosa’s base year trade value is the greater of his previous year’s salary, or 50% of his new salary
previous salary: $1,679,733
50% of his new salary: $2,800,000
so all we would need to do is meet the 125% requirement of the 2.8 million which we do with a trade of gelabale and sene for barbosa
http://realgm.com/src_checktrade.php?tradeid=4097782
and we also meet the requirements with a gelabale and petro for barbosa trade if we use a small portion of our trade exception before making the kurt thomas deal
http://realgm.com/src_checktrade.php?tradeid=4097784
July 12th, 2007 at 3:04 pm
“In a couple of years the Swift & Sene combo will be dominating the league at the center position !!!! Who else is there around their age? Howard? He seems like the only competition. ”
Erm… Chris Bosh and Al Jefferson say hello. And if those two are too old for you, I heard Portland got a pretty good center prospect in the draft…
July 12th, 2007 at 3:07 pm
I would agree with you Vinny but like I said, I’ve heard Sarver is playing it cheap and $16M in any given year isn’t chump change. That would get you one whole year of Rashard Lewis!
Let’s be honest here - everyone’s offensive stats go up once they play with Nash and the Suns. If Barbosa was some guaranteed budding superstar, they would have had to pay him a lot more than $6M to keep him.
A player’s value has a lot to do with the system. Wilcox is worth a lot to the Suns or Warrriors, not worth much to the Pacers or Rockets.
Ridnour might be worth a lot to the Suns - he is tailor made for that offense.
July 12th, 2007 at 3:10 pm
Barbosa isn’t going anywhere, who would their third guard be? Barbosa has played over 30MPG the last two years as the main backup to both Nash and Bell. I don’t buy the financial stuff, they are thinking championship, not money.
With that said I would love it if this was true, Barbosa is at least one tier above ridnour or watson. My one issue with Barbosa is his basketball IQ. He works well in a very fast paced offense but when the game slows down he hesitates on making decisions with the ball.
IMO the sonics need to make a decision as to who is going to be their fixture at PG and using the trade exception is smart. This has been a big hole since Gary left. Sonics need a player who can pass and shoot the 3 as well as defend opposing 1’s. Positions 2,3,4,5 can be swung as 3,3,3,5, or, 2,2,4,5, 2,3,4,4 or whatever but the team needs a 1 more than anything. Ridnour and Watson are each basically #1.5’s. They are excellent backups and would be the second PG on any team except PHX but would only be #1’s on a few teams as well. There is a debate as to which is better, Watson being stronger on D and Ridnour on O. I believe both these players have room for improvement as well. Essentially, I think the team needs to decide who is going to be the PG that is going to give us 35 minutes a game or more and get the rest of the team going.
July 12th, 2007 at 3:16 pm
“they are thinking championship, not money”
They are also thinking money.
They just sell their picks every year even when the players picked could be very valuable.
They want to save money badly IMO.
July 12th, 2007 at 3:16 pm
This is too funny( in an eery way). I just posted a trade on real gm that had two seperate deals(before I read this).
The first had Wilcox and Petro for Thomas. The second had Gelabale for Raja Bell using part of the Sonics exception. This saves Phoenix $4mil.
I would say I’ve been saying I want to see Kurt Thomas on the Sonics since his Knicks days. He plays smart, tough, versatile, and actually has a nice midrange shot. And the expiring part of his contract isn’t too shabby either. Sounds like a Presti guy to me.
Raja Bell would be a perfect compliment to Durant. I think he would also fit in well with just about any of the pointguards. Again, he fits the mold of the new Sonics pattern.
July 12th, 2007 at 3:18 pm
And they fit my mold of integrating a couple of tough character, playoff hardened veterans into this roster.
July 12th, 2007 at 3:21 pm
Banks and Thomas and atlanta #1 in 2008 …. is the way I see it
July 12th, 2007 at 3:23 pm
“AK - of course the second one doesn’t work, you didn’t include the trade exception…unbelievable.”
What? Man, you’re not that well-versed regarding this subject.
As it is, you obviously don’t realize the specifics of a trade exception. I suggest that you look it up before you moronically criticize me.
July 12th, 2007 at 3:24 pm
I’m not sold on Barbosa, although he’s definitely a better player than Luke and Watson. He seems to be a little too erratic for the point guard position. The Spurs shut him down in the playoffs. He was fantastic against Golden State, but that series was up and down, absolutely no half-court offense.
The only way I do that deal is if the Atlanta pick is included. What motivation would the Sonics have to do that deal just for Thomas? Unless Presti is planning to add more veterans to make a playoff run, which is unlikely in my opinion.
If the pick is included…this is the perfect deal. The Sonics would probably have two high draft picks again next year, plus Thomas’ salary is off the books. One point guard and one shooting guard, with Durant growing into the 4 position over time and Green and Swift at the remaining to spots???
July 12th, 2007 at 3:25 pm
This rumor was the idea I floated yesterday. The exception for KT + Atlanta’s #1 isn’t the exciting play that most are hoping for, but adding KT on an expiring deal is a nice play and adding a likely lottery pick in next year’s draft isn’t a bad pick either.
It’s not the sexy move everyone is hoping for, but it might be the right move. Phoenix would probably do it because it takes 16 mil off their operating expenses for next year.
The only way the Sonics would realistically be able to get Barbosa would be in a multi-team deal because of BYC and that’s assuming that Phoenix wants to trade him.
July 12th, 2007 at 3:25 pm
In all seriousness, ignorant idiots (e.g., Sonics70) need to read the following material.
http://members.cox.net/lmcoon/salarycap.htm
Until that point in time, folks such as him shouldn’t make erroneous claims regarding the NBA collective bargaining agreement.
July 12th, 2007 at 3:28 pm
This rumor was the idea I floated yesterday. The exception for KT + Atlanta’s #1 isn’t the exciting play that most are hoping for, but adding KT on an expiring deal is a nice play and adding a likely lottery pick in next year’s draft isn’t a bad pick either.
The only way the Sonics would realistically be able to get Barbosa would be in a multi-team deal because of BYC and that’s assuming that Phoenix wants to trade him.
July 12th, 2007 at 3:29 pm
Just so AK does not get thinking he’s too hot shi!t when it comes to the trade rules I’ll try to illuminate things for his edification…
Trade exceptions cannot be combined, but they can be used simultaneously. In this case it would work as follows:
Phoenix is sending out Kurt Thomas and Barbosa. Thomas Salary at $8.01 million and Barbosa’s outgoing salary slot at $2.8 millon for a total outgoing of $10.81 out. They can take in any amount up to 125% of this number. If they take back less salary then they get a trade exception.
Seattle absorbs Thomas’ salary straight out via the exception and at the same time takes in Barbosas actual salary of $5.6 million. They have to trade out within 125%+$100K of that amount($4.3M) to absorb him.
So if they wanted to get any combination of Sene, Petro and Gelabale we would simply have to include Damien Wilkens in the deal to make it work. Given that we are taking on Thomas we could even send Ridnour or Watson because the only criteria is that we send out contracts which are more than $4.3M and less than $13.6M. Our ability to absorb Thomas’ contract is what creates that flexibility.
Mike Wilks could be included with only a partialy guaranteed deal. For that matter Danny Fortson can be included in any deal up o about $10 million. The only criteria is that it must be a 2 year deal with only the first year guaranteed. Danny’s not getting another offer. If they offered him $300K to sign his name and then the suns waived him the next day I think it would be OK.
While AK wants to hold everybody to their literal word while at the same time actually pretending that the rights to every second round pick of the last 15 years should be included in trade proposals he should take a grain of salt that deals this close can get done pretty easily. I think we all know who’s making the moronic comments here…
July 12th, 2007 at 3:32 pm
We can dream can’t we? You do have to look around the league though and find out:
A) Who is going to get hammered by the luxury tax.
B) Who is going to care if they get hammered.
There are only four teams right now who will be well over the threshold next season:
Knicks - +20.3
Mavericks - +11.4
Nuggets - +9.3
Suns - +8.4
We know the Knicks and Mavs could care less about the tax as they are owned by a corporation and a multi-billionaire and both do very well in terms of revenues. Denver’s owner is also worth almost $2B and probably doesn’t care.
Sarver, on the other hand, was worth only $400M at the height of the real estate boom and may be worth less by now. He may, like Schultz, not be willing to treat the team as an expensive toy but wants to run it like a business and worry about making a profit.
July 12th, 2007 at 3:32 pm
There is no way that Leandro Barbosa will be a part of such a deal, for it’s impossible to complete within the rules and regulations of the NBA collective bargaining agreement. As it is, the following link provides information regarding the intricacies of traded player exceptions.
http://members.cox.net/lmcoon/salarycap.htm#68
In any event, the Seattle Supersonics would most likely trade a fungible asset like the draft rights of Peter Fehse to the Phoenix Suns for Kurt Thomas ($8,091,187), a 2008 first-round draft pick, and a 2008 first round-draft pick via the Atlanta Hawks.
July 12th, 2007 at 3:32 pm
friggin comment in moderation
if you want to you could make 2 seperate trades
2nd round draft pick to the suns for kurt eating up the trade exception
and then gelly and sene to the suns for barbosa using the BYC
both trades work just fine and we don’t have to throw in any other players or draft rights
July 12th, 2007 at 3:34 pm
Nope, Brian, a trade exception can’t exceed more than $100,000 of its original amount, so drop that 125% crap ’cause you’re wrong about it.
July 12th, 2007 at 3:35 pm
Leandro Barbosa has an outgoing salary of $5,600,000; thus, your trade proposal doesn’t work Brice.
July 12th, 2007 at 3:35 pm
The tough part of this to me, is aren’t the Sonics also trying to keep payroll down? This would put us at ~63m for next season for a team not expected to contend for the playoffs. If it’s just KT & a pick, we’d basically be buying a draft pick for $8 million and a little veteran presence.
My guess is there would have to be more sweetener for Bennett to agree to this. Or we’d have to be moving some players out in consolidation moves to get better this year or save money elsewhere somehow.
July 12th, 2007 at 3:36 pm
“I don’t buy the financial stuff, they are thinking championship, not money.”
Then you haven’t been paying attention to what Phoenix has been doing with their picks lately and who they’ve been shopping. They’re very much concerned about luxury tax and their owner is on record as saying he won’t pay it. It wouldn’t suprise me if they end up trading Marion at some point this year.
July 12th, 2007 at 3:37 pm
leandro barbosa also qualifies as a BYC player, so his trade value is $2,800,000
July 12th, 2007 at 3:38 pm
AK,
Brice’s proposal seemed to check out okay with your favorite toy:
http://www.realgm.com/src_checktrade.php?tradeid=4097897
July 12th, 2007 at 3:38 pm
actually, he signed his new contract in august of last year, does that mean his BYC status has expired?
July 12th, 2007 at 3:39 pm
For trade purposes, Brian, Leandro Barbosa’s incoming salary is $2,800,000 and his outgoing salary is $5,600,000 — which means that the Phoenix Suns can take back a maximum of $3,600,000 for him — thus, it’s nearly impossible for him to be traded elsewhere.
July 12th, 2007 at 3:40 pm
AK - keep digging that hole for yourself.
The language states “125% PLUS $100,000 of the salary given out” - right there in your precious realgm trade checker that you use 10 times a day.
If you had any credibility…it is now gone…
July 12th, 2007 at 3:41 pm
NO AK - They are trading him as part of a bigger deal including Thomas. That allows them to take back the $2.8 PLUS Thomas’ salary. Seattle can absorb this deal by using two exceptions at one time(not combining them). The first exception takes Thomas, the second is created by our outgoing players.
I get the BYC. You’re just wrong on this issue.
July 12th, 2007 at 3:42 pm
It only worked ’cause the trade exception is still owned by the Seattle Supersonics. If the Seattle Supersonics were to acquire Kurt Thomas, however, then that aforementioned deal can’t be consummated. Similarly, if that original move is agreed upon by the Supersonics and the Phoenix Suns, then the Suns can’t trade Thomas to the Supersonics ’cause the traded player exception wouldn’t be large enough at that moment in time.
July 12th, 2007 at 3:42 pm
ya, realGM trade checker says barbosa’s BYC status is still valid and my gelly & sene trade for him still checks out
we only have to match his incoming trade value of 2.8, which we do with gelly and sene
July 12th, 2007 at 3:43 pm
No, Leandro Barbosa’s outgoing salary is $5,600,000, so the trade exception that the Seattle Supersoncis recieved from the Boston Celtics wouldn’t be large enough to acquire him.
Ask you contacts about that, Brian.
July 12th, 2007 at 3:43 pm
Sounds like an interesting trade if Presti and the Suns are willing to make the move.
July 12th, 2007 at 3:44 pm
Hey, Sonics70, read the following information.
http://members.cox.net/lmcoon/salarycap.htm#68
You’re a dunce.
July 12th, 2007 at 3:45 pm
When comparing salaries for trade, teams use their own player’s BYC value and the other player’s full salary
suns use their players BYC value: 2.8 million
suns use the other players full value: 802,000 + 2,105,520 = 2907520
2,800,000 for 2,907,520 doesnt meet the 125%?
July 12th, 2007 at 3:46 pm
“Nope, Brian, a trade exception can’t exceed more than $100,000 of its original amount, so drop that 125% crap ‘cause you’re wrong about it. ”
It can if it’s a simultaneous trade. Check Coon #69.
July 12th, 2007 at 3:46 pm
Sorry buddy but the realgm tool isn’t sophisticated enough to factor in trade exceptions. Heck, it doesn’t even track draft picks or cash factors.
I’m going to hazard a guess that unless AK is really Rich Cho posting in his spare time (which he seems to have plenty of), I don’t think we have anyone here who is close to an expert on the salary cap…
July 12th, 2007 at 3:48 pm
Okay, Steve, you’re right about that.
July 12th, 2007 at 3:49 pm
Thanks for the link AK - amazingly you just proved yourself wrong again:
Trades using the Traded Player exception are classified into two categories: simultaneous and non-simultaneous. As its name suggests, a simultaneous trade takes place all at once. Teams can acquire up to 125% plus $100,000 of the salaries they are trading in a simultaneous trade. For example, a team trading a $5 million player in a simultaneous trade can receive one or more players whose salary is no more than 125% of $5 million, plus $100,000, or $6.35 million in return.
July 12th, 2007 at 3:49 pm
You know AK, you can correct and educate people without calling them names or trying to lord it over them.
Being a complete asshat isn’t making anyone more appreciative of your impressive knowledge of the salary cap.
July 12th, 2007 at 3:51 pm
Yes, Brian, but the Seattle Supersonics would have to absorb Kurt Thomas’s contract to convince the Phoenix Suns to part with Leandro Barbosa for nothing more than Mouhamed Sene and Mickael Gelabale. At that point in time, though, Sam Presit would’ve already used the traded player exception that he received from the Orlando Magic and, moreover, the traded player exception that he recieved from the Boston Celtics isn’t enough to cover Barbosa’s outgoing salary of $5,600,000.
July 12th, 2007 at 3:51 pm
Steve, I fixed you post:
“Being a complete asshat isn’t making anyone more appreciative of your impressive ignorance of the salary cap.”
July 12th, 2007 at 3:53 pm
hmmm, actually scratch it, even though it works for the suns it wont work for us without using up our trade exception because we are intaking 5.6 million and sending out 2.9
July 12th, 2007 at 3:54 pm
Look, I’m a jackass. We all know that. Let’s move onward with this discussion.
Anyhow, Sonics70 made a decent observation. From my recollection, a traded player exception couldn’t be used in such a manner that the 125% rule was invoked. Again, I’m not that intelligent regarding the salary cap — hell, stuff like signing bonuses and incentives still are above my head — yet, I thought that I knew most everything about traded player exceptions.
If anyone knows the actual specifics, then that’d be sweet.
July 12th, 2007 at 3:55 pm
We need Sene and Jelly Man on this team !!!!!
They make Kevin Durant appear thick.
July 12th, 2007 at 3:55 pm
All right, I’m sorry for getting all worked up about this issue.
It sure was exciting, though, which is what the off-season is all about.
July 12th, 2007 at 3:55 pm
AK…please pay attention…stop posting and just walk away. You are burying yourself under a mountain of inane posts here.
You are so wrong on this one it is scary…best to start fresh tomorrow morning first thing.
July 12th, 2007 at 3:56 pm
I think AK is right.
We could trade the exception and a #2 pick for Thomas a #1 pick.
Barbosa, on the other hand… I don’t see how we can do that.
July 12th, 2007 at 3:57 pm
a traded player exception can only be used on an incoming contract that is 100% + 100,000 of the value of the trade exception
July 12th, 2007 at 3:58 pm
No way are we getting Barbosa or Raja Bell. The Suns won’t break up their core to save money (unless they’re getting serious savings and talent for Shawn Marion). Nash, Amare, Barbosa, Bell, Diaw, Marion, and Grant Hill are their core. Maybe we could get Diaw, but I doubt we’d really want him right now.
Kurt Thomas can be had. Getting Kurt and PHX’s 1st rounder for the exception (and whatever meaningless parts we have to throw in) seems like a possibility.
We’re dreaming to think we can get the Atlanta pick though, I doubt even Sarver is willing to sell that pick.
July 12th, 2007 at 3:58 pm
No, I’m right about Leandro Barbosa — even though I thought Brice was Brian, which means I’m really losing it with my focus — yet, I’m ostensibly incorrect about the traded player exception.
July 12th, 2007 at 4:00 pm
ya AK, you were right about barbosa. it meets the requirements for the suns, but not for us which sucks
July 12th, 2007 at 4:02 pm
Okay, sweet, I may actually be right this time.
Anyway, B_Con, you shouldn’t underestimate the cheapness of Robert Sarver. I wouldn’t put it past him to trade Kurt Thomas and both of the 2008 first-round draft picks that the Phoenix Suns possess solely to save approximately $16,000,000 next season.
Yet, if it weren’t for the fact that the Suns are currently over the luxury tax, then I’d tend to agree with you.
July 12th, 2007 at 4:05 pm
If we send Watson to the Warriors using their exception we would have another exception right big enough to take Barbosa’s salary if I’m correct (which is doubtful)
GS could use a backup PG but this deal remains highly unlikely…
July 12th, 2007 at 4:06 pm
My friend from PHX does hate Robert Sarver….
I implore Sam Presti to throw in Mo Sene in order to get that Atlanta pick! Dual top 5 picks two years in a row? Thats a good way to build a team.
I still say it won’t happen though.
July 12th, 2007 at 4:09 pm
I’d rather trade Wilkins and keep Gelabale. I think he’s a better defender on the ball. If that’s part of the requirement on the roster then that’s what i would do.
Thomas would be a good pickup, as long as he had PT nightly. I don’t think he would have a problem coming here. he was very unhappy in NYC when he didn’t get any PT, made a stink.
BTW, Kurt Thoimas was, I think, the guy that had a handshake deal to go to one team and broke that verbal agreement before the signing date to switch to signing with the Knicks.
So, the story about Lewis’ agent getting offers all the way up to him signing are likely very true. Until the ink is spilled, it aint over.
July 12th, 2007 at 4:09 pm
Atlanta’s pick + our likely lottery pick make would make acquiring Derrick Rose a legitimate possibility… now THAT’s tasty.
July 12th, 2007 at 4:13 pm
The thing to remember about all the BYC, exceptions and all that is that the rules are concerned with extra money coming in, not really going out. So in this scenario the Suns are free to send out any contracts they want so long as the other team has an ability to take them back. The way you do it is to look at each side of the deal strictly in the sense of what is coming in and see if that works. If it works on both sides then the deal can happen simultaneously.
In this instance the Sonics can absorb Kurt Thomas straight out using their exception. THey can at the same time absorb Barbosa’s conctract of $5.6 so long as they send out within 125% of that contract, a minium of $4.3M coming out.
The Suns, assuming they send out Thomas($8M) and Barbosa(value of $2.6M) can take back anything within 125% of their outgoing salary calculation. In this case up to $13.25M.
Our trade exception winds up creating more than enough space to offset Barbosa’s BYC.
I’m not certain in any way how cheap the Suns are and whetehr they’d do this deal. It is extremely possible however.
July 12th, 2007 at 4:15 pm
I say pull the trigger, get thomas and see what can be done about Barbosa. Luke for Barbosa seems fair, but I know it will result in Luke becoming a legit PG, which is annoying! Sene will be an OK center in like 6 years, not sure I’m willing to hold out that long. Anyway we can send Wilkins for Barbosa, that would feel fair-ish for me. Keep Gelly here though, this next season he could explode. Hey did anyone see this rumor/news about Stern Paying for the Sactown stadium?! If this is at all true it may be time for another wave of letters:
http://thesportsbizblog.blogspot.com/2007/07/will-nba-finance-sactown-arena.html
July 12th, 2007 at 4:20 pm
“The thing to remember about all the BYC, exceptions and all that is that the rules are concerned with extra money coming in, not really going out. So in this scenario the Suns are free to send out any contracts they want so long as the other team has an ability to take them back. The way you do it is to look at each side of the deal strictly in the sense of what is coming in and see if that works. If it works on both sides then the deal can happen simultaneously.
In this instance the Sonics can absorb Kurt Thomas straight out using their exception. THey can at the same time absorb Barbosa’s conctract of $5.6 so long as they send out within 125% of that contract, a minium of $4.3M coming out.
The Suns, assuming they send out Thomas($8M) and Barbosa(value of $2.6M) can take back anything within 125% of their outgoing salary calculation. In this case up to $13.25M.
Our trade exception winds up creating more than enough space to offset Barbosa’s BYC.
I’m not certain in any way how cheap the Suns are and whetehr they’d do this deal. It is extremely possible however.”
No, Brian, I think you’re wrong in this case.
Yet, until a couple of other people disagree with you, I won’t say that you’re definitely incorrect about this.
July 12th, 2007 at 4:22 pm
Brian, the problem is, phoenix cannot take back $4.3 million in that deal - they’re over the cap. The cannot send out $2.6M and take back $4.3M.
I don’t see how you’re getting that they can take back up to $13.5M. We cannot combine the trade exception and a player to get a player.
July 12th, 2007 at 4:26 pm
i dont see how that works
if we absorb kurt thomas ($8,091,187) with the exception ($9,350,649 last year salary)
that lowers the claue of the exception to about 1.3 million, so with that we can only acquire a player with a contract of 1.4 million or less… right?
i dont know how you can apply the rest of that exception or the 2.1 from boston to barbosa since barbosa’s incoming salary is 5.6 million, far and above both of those
July 12th, 2007 at 4:26 pm
I went round and round with this in an e-mail thing with Larry Coon a couple of years ago. He finally educated me.
Another note. If we get short salary to send out in a deal really look for Danny Fortson to be sent packing in a S&T for a deal with only the first year guaranteed. I guess I can spill now that Danny told me this was the reason he was kept on the roster. The team wanted the flexibility to trade him to facilitate a deal. So in this case if you were trying to get to the number to bring back Barbosa and you needed to send out a minimum of $4.3M you could technically just send out Gelabale at $800K, and sign Danny to a two-year $7M deal with only the first year (about $3.35M) guaranteed. whoever got him would waive him but it would facilitate the deal.
What part of it doesn’t work? Do you contest that, from the Phoenix end Barbosa and Thomas going out is basically a single deal even though two exceptions are being used to take them in?
July 12th, 2007 at 4:29 pm
the part that doesn’t work is, you can’t trade and exception AND a player for another player. These have two be two separate deals.
The Thomas for the exception side of the deal works.
But you can’t combine it with the other deal to get around the BYC issues with Barbosa. The Barbosa deal has to stand on its own, and it doesn’t because Phoenix is over the cap.
July 12th, 2007 at 4:30 pm
What you don’t appear to realize, Brian, is that Leandro Barbosa has an outgoing salary of $5,600,000. Upon the acquisition of Kurt Thomas and a couple of 2008 first-round draft picks for a fungible asset (e.g., the draft rights of Peter Fehse) — which, by the way, is what this whole scenario is contingent upon — the Seattle Supersonics won’t have a trade exception large enough to obtain Barbosa.
July 12th, 2007 at 4:31 pm
Brian,
I’m pretty sure you’re wrong on this one, too. I believe, the way the BYC works, if we send out salary matching the 4.3M needed to acquire Barbosa’s 5.6M contract, we automatically exceed the number of dollars Phoenix can accept in return (1.25 * (.50)(5.6))=3.5M. That’s why it’s next to impossible to work out 2-team deals for BYC players, even if you do have trade exemptions to burn.
I think.
July 12th, 2007 at 4:33 pm
Fortson has already made millions for doing nothing.
It would piss me off to no end if he recieved 3.5 million just to sign his name, so we could make a trade.
F that.
July 12th, 2007 at 4:33 pm
As it is, you obviously don’t realize the specifics of a trade exception.
Get a load of this; I was watching KOMO 11pm news last night and the sports anchor (don’t remember his name - he was Eric’s Little Hero sub) said the Sonics were getting back over $9 million in CASH, lol.
Then I switch over to NWCN Sports Report and Paul Silvi said the trade exception meant the Sonics could sign a player for over $9 million and not have it count against the salary cap. C’mon, Paul!
July 12th, 2007 at 4:35 pm
If we absorb Barbosa, Suns get a trade exception worth half his salary, they obsorb our players with it. 2.8 million exception to the Suns.
5.6 million exception consumed by in salary by the Sonics.
I don’t know how you could then trade for Thomas.
Maybe if you traded thomas first and handed exceptions back and forth seperate trades, Thomas’ 8 mil for about 4 mil in salary might leave enough to just absorb Barbosa’s 5.6, like a sponge, sending back 5.6 mil in exception (worth only 2.6 mil to them).
Thomas for the bunch of people, then absorb Barbosa with the exception that you had left? I think that’s over simplifying it.
July 12th, 2007 at 4:39 pm
wait
for the suns, they look at it as sending out 2.8 million, so the most they can bring in is 3.6 million (2.8 x 1.25 + .1)
for the sonics, they look at it as bringing in 5.6 million, and sending out about 2.9 million
we aren’t sending out more than 125% + 100,000 than we are bringing in
and the suns aren’t sending out more than 125% + 100,000 than they are taking in
im starting to think the trade works even without the traded player exceptions from orlando or boston
July 12th, 2007 at 4:41 pm
When they say you can’t combine exceptions they mean that you cannot combine multiple exceptions to get a single player. In other words you don’t take the $9 million exception plus a $4 million player and trade it for a guy making $13.
You can’t combine them to get one player, but you use them together as components of one larger deal. From the Phoenix perspective this is one deal, they send out the two players and those two, from their end total in excess of $10 million. It’s irrelevant how Seattle takes back Thomas, so long as they’re able.
COON:
There are some common misconceptions about non-simultaneous trades. For one, teams cannot use a Traded Player exception to sign free agents; it can be used only to acquire existing contracts from other teams. For another, teams cannot combine a Traded Player exception with other exceptions (such as the Mid-Level exception or the 125% plus $100,000 margin from another trade) in order to trade for a more expensive player. For example, a team with a $1 million Traded Player exception cannot combine it with their $2 million player to trade for a $3 million player (see question number 72 for more information on combining exceptions).
Here is a more complicated example of a legal non-simultaneous trade: a team has a $4 million Traded Player exception from an earlier trade, and a $10 million player it currently wants to trade. Another team has three players making $4 million, $5 million and $7 million, and the teams want to do a three-for-one trade with these players. This is legal — the $5 million and $7 million players together make less than the 125% plus $100,000 allowed for the $10 million player ($12,600,000), and the $4 million player exactly fits within the $4 million Traded Player exception. So the $4 million player actually completes the previous trade, leaving the two teams trading a $10 million player for a $5 million and a $7 million player. From the other team’s perspective it’s all just one big simultaneous trade: their $4 million, $5 million and $7 million players for the $10 million player.
Here’s another great example from Coon. Only in our case no third team is necessary becase WE are the guys with the traded player exception:
75. Whenever I read about prospective trades involving base year players, they say a third team must get involved. Why? Can’t a base year player be traded in a two-team trade?
There’s no specific rule that prohibits trading base year players in a two-team deal. But the way the numbers work, it’s not always possible unless one of the teams dumps additional salary onto a third team.
As an example, let’s say Player A plays for Washington. He earned $3 million last season and re-signed as a free agent for $10 million. That makes him a base year player whose BYC value is $5 million (see question number 73). Player B plays for Seattle and also earns $10 million, but is not a base year player. Both Seattle and Washington are over the salary cap.
Now suppose Seattle and Washington want to trade Player A and Player B for each other. Seattle can take back 125% plus $100,000 of Player B’s $10 million salary, or $12.6 million. Player A’s $10 million salary easily fits within that limit. But Washington can only take back as much as 125% plus $100,000 of Player A’s $5 million BYC value, or $6.35 million. Player B’s $10 million salary is too high.
If the two teams want to complete this trade, then Washington must rid themselves of an additional $2.92 million in salary (because Washington’s total outgoing amount would then be $7.92 million, and 125% plus $100,000 of $7.92 million is $10 million, which is the amount of incoming salary Washington is trying to absorb in this example). Let’s say that Player C plays for Washington, is not a base year player, and earns $3 million. What happens if they want to trade Player A plus Player C for Player B? Player A plus Player C total $13 million, which is greater than Seattle’s $12.6 million maximum. So Washington can’t give the additional $2.92 million to Seattle.
This is where a third team gets involved. This team must be far enough under the cap, or have a Traded Player exception (see question number 69) to absorb the additional $2.92 million in salary. Let’s say Chicago is way under the salary cap. Here is an example three-team trade:
Washington sends Seattle Player A
Seattle sends Washington Player B
Washington sends Chicago Player C
Chicago sends Washington a future second round draft pick
Here’s how the numbers work:
Washington trades $5 million BYC plus $3 million salary, or $8 million. They can receive 125% plus $100,000, or $10.1 million, in return. Washington receives Player B’s $10 million salary, along with a draft pick that has zero trade value (see question number 71) for a total of $10 million.
Seattle trades $10 million in salary, and receives $10 million in salary, so they’re fine.
Chicago trades $0 and receives $3 million, but since they’re more than $3 million under the salary cap, they can absorb the increase.
So the numbers work for all teams involved.
AK - Barbosa’s outgoing salary from Phoenix is the BYC lower number. It is his incoming salary to Seattle that is the higher.
July 12th, 2007 at 4:42 pm
ugh nvm, do we have to send out at least 4.4 million?
(4.4 x 1.25 + .1 = 5.6)
July 12th, 2007 at 4:42 pm
Although Danny Fortson could be signed-and-traded to a three-year contract — wherein the second and third seasons were non-guaranteed, which is what happened to Darrell Armstrong last off-season — for some kind of assets, it’s highly unlikely that any team would agree to such a deal.
As it is, Fortson is a nonentity at this point.
July 12th, 2007 at 4:42 pm
Brice,
Huh? How are we bringing in 5.6M and sending out only 2.9? I legitimately have no idea, I hate the CBA.
July 12th, 2007 at 4:45 pm
Those examples aren’t applicable to this scenario, Brian.
July 12th, 2007 at 4:45 pm
actually, `I think` (I’ve been wrong before) the only part Brian has “wrong” is the “simultaneously” part. I think they have to be seperated deals, the problem being the sequence.
The Sonics have to keep enough exception after trading for Thomas to absorb Barbosa straight up, sending the full value in exception, it’s all exception.
Thomas is 8 mil, Sonics would have to send a little more than 4 mil in that deal to only absorb about 4 mil of the exception we have, taking it down to 5.6 mil. Then in a non-simultaneous trade for Barbosa, consuming all of the rest of our exception, the suns value to them is only 2.6 mil.
July 12th, 2007 at 4:45 pm
See the bolded parts of my above post. It starts to make it clearer.
July 12th, 2007 at 4:46 pm
completely ignoring kurt thomas and the traded player exception and focusing only on barbosa on the BYC
the suns outgoing trade value for barbosa is 2.8 million, the sonics incoming trade value for barbosa is 5.6 million
im actually thinking this scenario works:
“for the suns, they look at it as sending out 2.8 million, so the most they can bring in is 3.6 million (2.8 x 1.25 + .1)
for the sonics, they look at it as bringing in 5.6 million, and sending out about 2.9 million
we aren’t sending out more than 125% + 100,000 than we are bringing in
and the suns aren’t sending out more than 125% + 100,000 than they are taking in”
July 12th, 2007 at 4:49 pm
Brice, for us to bring in Barbosa’s 5.6, we need to send out at least 4.2
July 12th, 2007 at 4:52 pm
“AK - Barbosa’s outgoing salary from Phoenix is the BYC lower number. It is his incoming salary to Seattle that is the higher.”
This is how the base-year compensation works in its most simplistic form.
If the Phoenix Suns trade Leandro Barbosa prior to July 1st, 2008, then the team may only take back $3,600,000 in salary — which is 5,600,000 multiplied by 125% plus 100,000 — while the team that acquires Barbosa must deal a total of $4,400,000 in players’ salary or a single trade exception of $5,500,000.
July 12th, 2007 at 4:53 pm
Brian, we act as the third team, in a way, in a non-simultaneous trade. As long as each transaction could have happened on their own, as you point out in your post.
Thomas and a pick For Sonics players making 4.4 mil and some exception 3.6 mil.
Barbosa and another pick for the rest of our exception and pick that Orlando pick.
July 12th, 2007 at 4:53 pm
AK - Why exactly not? They all talk about the basic premise of using simultaneous exceptions and overcoming BYC via making the deal bigger. I’ll take Coon’s example and plug our own numbers/Teams in. You tell me what part of it doesn’t work. Essentially Seattle is acting as its own “third team” because it has the trade exception. This is EXACTLY the scenario in which they say teams with cap space or exceptions can help facilitate a trade.
Phoenix sends Seattle Barbosa
Seattle sends Phoenix (assorted crap totalling $4.3M)
Phoenix sends Seattle Kurt Thomas
Phoenix sends Seattle a future second round draft pick
Here’s how the numbers work:
Phoenix trades $2.8 million BYC plus $8 million salary, or $10.8 million. They can receive 125% plus $100,000, or $13.6 million, in return. Washington receives (assorted craps)’s $4.3 million salary, along with a draft pick that has zero trade value (see question number 71) for a total of $4.3 million.
Seattle trades $4.3 million in salary, and receives $5.6 million in salary, so they’re fine.
Seattle(again) trades $0 and receives $8 million, but since they’re more than $3 million under the salary cap(replace with “have a traded player exception in excess of $8M), they can absorb the increase.
So the numbers work for all teams involved
July 12th, 2007 at 4:55 pm
“while the team that acquires Barbosa must deal a total of $4,400,000 in players’ salary or a single trade exception of $5,500,000.”
ya, that’s what i thought originally
July 12th, 2007 at 4:57 pm
If the Phoenix Suns trade Leandro Barbosa prior to July 1st, 2008, then the team may only take back $3,600,000 in salary — which is 5,600,000 multiplied by 125% plus 100,000 — while the team that acquires Barbosa must deal a total of $4,400,000 in players’ salary or a single trade exception of $5,500,000.
If they trade out barbosa in a package with any other players then they may take back the total of 125% of the other players salary, plus barbosa’s outgoing salary calculation. In this case they’re trading Barbosa and Thomas so the number that applies is the total of Thomas’ contact($8) and barbosas outgoing value($2.8). It’s why making deals larger is always the answer to getting around BYC. To do it the total deal needs to be large enough that the 25% or some cap space or exception becomes larger than the difference betwen the BYC and actual salary.
July 12th, 2007 at 4:59 pm
They make Kevin Durant look thick !!!
Get it?
July 12th, 2007 at 5:00 pm
Great point in that last post Brian - I think that is the key everyone is missing. As long as the BYC players are a small portion of the deal, the whole BYC mismatch problem gets absorbed into the larger numbers involved.
July 12th, 2007 at 5:00 pm
Baker - you have to seperate the transaction for both teams.
From the Seattle perspective you are taking the salary back on two different exceptions: Thomas for the “rashard” exception and Barbosa for the $4.3M in players you’re sending.
From the phoenix perspective it is not relevant how Seattle absorbed the contracts or if another team was involved. They are, in a single transaction, sending out two players who’s outgoing salary total’s $10.8M. From their perspective the 125% number is based on that number, not barbosa’s salary alone.
July 12th, 2007 at 5:01 pm
I don’t understand the CBA well enough to say what can or can’t be done >>> but I would say Barbossa would be a great player to have. I can’t imagine the Suns doing this - even with the big $$$ issue - but who knows.
If they are that desperate to dump salary would they consider dumping Marion to the Sonics? Would the sonics want him? Big salary but he’s a great player who can play “D”. Strong rebounder. Super versatile which Presti likes.
Just dreaming a bit…..
July 12th, 2007 at 5:02 pm
I think Brian is correct, but I think you have to do the Thomas deal first and send the salary out there, and in a seperate deal do the Barbosa deal for nothing but excepotion and absorb him.
July 12th, 2007 at 5:02 pm
so its ok for phoenix to send out 10.8 and only receive back 4.3?
July 12th, 2007 at 5:03 pm
wait, ok, i am starting to understand what brian is saying and its making sense
July 12th, 2007 at 5:05 pm
After the acquisition, however, the Seattle Supersonics won’t have a traded player exception large enough to absorb Leandro Barbosa’s contract — unless, perhaps, Mouhamed Sene, Johan Petro, and Mickael Gelabale are included within the first deal, which would possibly keep the traded player exception at a monetary amount above the necessary amount of either $5,500,000 or $4,400,000 — of course, I don’t expect the Phoenix Suns to part with him.
July 12th, 2007 at 5:05 pm
If the other team can absorb the contract you can always send out more than you take back. We just did so with Rashard.
July 12th, 2007 at 5:05 pm
Reading all this salary cap stuff is giving me a headache
July 12th, 2007 at 5:07 pm
We have to send back $4.3M in some form. That is correct.
July 12th, 2007 at 5:10 pm
I know Brian, I understand it. I was just showing the same deal in a way to show that you don’t have to send any actual salary back to get barbosa (that’s zero AK), if you brake them in two deals (non-simultaneous trade).
I think can do it either way. simultaneously, I still think you have to show that you could do them as seperate deals, but that a matter of what hunk of paper Presti signs first, and nothing more.
July 12th, 2007 at 5:10 pm
Here is a good example of what Brian is saying. Instead of trading Thomas for the trade exception, let’s do it where we trade Wally for Amare (I know, purely hypothetical). Those two make between $12M and $13M apiece next season. Adding these two to the overall deal solves the BYC mismatch because the deal is large enough.
It goes through via trade checker.
July 12th, 2007 at 5:13 pm
Why would the sonics want Thomas, just to help the suns? He is not a center or a point. Wilcox and Collison not to menton green or even durant play pf.
We would have too get Barbosa or bell in this or should not even talk about it.
July 12th, 2007 at 5:14 pm
AK1984 Says:
July 12th, 2007 at 5:05 pm
“After the acquisition, however, the Seattle Supersonics won’t have a traded player exception large enough to absorb Leandro Barbosa’s contract — unless, perhaps, Mouhamed Sene, Johan Petro, and Mickael Gelabale are included within the first deal, which would possibly keep the traded player exception at a monetary amount above the necessary amount of either $5,500,000 or $4,400,000 — of course, I don’t expect the Phoenix Suns to part with him. ”
That’s a strange way of saying Brian is right.
Brian Robinson Says:
July 12th, 2007 at 5:07 pm
“We have to send back $4.3M in some form. That is correct. ”
If you do it first with Thomas, and then absorb Barbosa in the second part (doesn’t matter, I know) then AK will shut up about it.
July 12th, 2007 at 5:16 pm
sprtsjnkyyak Says:
July 12th, 2007 at 5:13 pm
“Why would the sonics want Thomas, just to help the suns? ”
They send us picks in the deal.
July 12th, 2007 at 5:18 pm
so we get a player we don’t need give up the exempttion for a pick
July 12th, 2007 at 5:22 pm
ok let me try to clarify this
Phoenix sends out:
Kurt Thomas (8 mil)
Leandro Barbosa (2.8 mil)
Total - 10.8 million
Seattle sends out:
Gelly (.8 mil)
Sene (2.1 mil)
Fortson (1.6 mil)
Total - 4.5 million
Phoenix takes in 4.5 million, which is not more than 125% + 100,000 than they are sending out
Seattle takes in 13.6 million, kurt’s contract is absorbed by the exception (8 mil), and we take in 5.6 million, which is not more than 125% + 100,000 of the 4.5 million we sent out
does this make sense?
July 12th, 2007 at 5:29 pm
Bingo
July 12th, 2007 at 5:30 pm
I’ll say for the record though that I’d rather we find a way to give the money to Andre Brown rather than Danny. Help a brother out…
July 12th, 2007 at 5:34 pm
I’m exhausted
July 12th, 2007 at 5:35 pm
Yes - forget about giving Fortson any $$$$ - sign wilks or Brown to do this if needed.
Anyone want to comment on the idea of trying to get Marion if the Suns are deperate for dropping salary? Would he make sense for the Sonics? Rumors have been flying around since the season was over that he might be available because of his high salary.
July 12th, 2007 at 5:37 pm
ok, ive got a massive headache
July 12th, 2007 at 5:48 pm
Brice - that WILL NOT WORK.
The reason - you can’t trade the exception AND a player in one deal. THIS IS WHAT EVERYONE IS MISSING.
You can do the exception for Thomas - fine.
You cannot do the other side. You cannot use the exception, or part of the exception, to make a Barbosa deal work.
July 12th, 2007 at 5:55 pm
Big_Worm:
you aren’t using any of the trade exception towards barbosa, you are only using gelly, sene, and (insert lucky bastard getting free money) to acquire barbose
you are only including kurt and the trade exception in the deal so that it makes the deal work on phoenix’s end.
if you don’t combine the deals, then we have to send out 4.4 million, and the most phoenix can take in is 3.6, it wouldnt work
but if you make it one big deal then phoenix can take in up to 13.6
you are only applying the exception towards kurt’s contract, not barbosa’s
July 12th, 2007 at 5:57 pm
I’m exhausted.
-+-+-
ok, ive got a massive headache.
I’m bored.
Hope y’all had a good time getting worked up over an extension that’ll likely never be used.
July 12th, 2007 at 5:57 pm
Here is a more complicated example of a legal non-simultaneous trade: a team has a $4 million Traded Player exception from an earlier trade, and a $10 million player it currently wants to trade.
Another team has three players making $4 million, $5 million and $7 million, and the teams want to do a three-for-one trade with these players.
This is legal — the $5 million and $7 million players together make less than the 125% plus $100,000 allowed for the $10 million player ($12,600,000), and the $4 million player exactly fits within the $4 million Traded Player exception.
So the $4 million player actually completes the previous trade, leaving the two teams trading a $10 million player for a $5 million and a $7 million player. From the other team’s perspective it’s all just one big simultaneous trade: their $4 million, $5 million and $7 million players for the $10 million player.
July 12th, 2007 at 5:58 pm
Make that “exception”. D’oh!
July 12th, 2007 at 6:00 pm
You can’t make it one deal - that’s my point. Cap rules won’t allow it.
Straight from the FAQ: “For example, a team with a $1 million Traded Player exception cannot combine it with their $2 million player to trade for a $3 million player”
July 12th, 2007 at 6:03 pm
Let Rich Cho deal with it.
July 12th, 2007 at 6:03 pm
but we aren’t doing that
we are using our 9 million dollar exception to absorb kurt’s contract, and trading 3 players to match barbosa’s incoming salary
we arent trading players and exception to match one bigger incoming salary
July 12th, 2007 at 6:04 pm
Brice - the problem with that example you cite- is that the player traded ($4M) exactly matches the exception ($4M).
In that example, it’s actually TWO SEPARATE transactions - the $4M player for the $4M exception as one, and the $5M and $7M players for the $10M player. It’s two separate transactions that stand up on their own.
The end result is LIKE one big trade, but it’s actually two trades that work on their own, separately.
We cannot do that in this case.
July 12th, 2007 at 6:04 pm
BW - they aren’t combining exceptions in this scenario. They are using the single trade exception + players to land two players from Phoenix.
If we were trying to combine the trade exception and the mid-level exception to land Marion - that wouldn’t be allowed.
Make sense?
July 12th, 2007 at 6:08 pm
big_worm: we aren’t trading players COMBINED with the exception to get ONE contract
we are trading 3 players to the suns for 2 players, absorbing the ENTIRE CONTRACT of one of those players using the exception, and then matching salaries using our 3 players and their 1 player
July 12th, 2007 at 6:12 pm
From another perspective, you can use a trade exception of $9M to trade for two players with $4.5M salaries but you can’t combine two $4.5 exceptions to trade for one player that makes $9M.
You need to stop thinking about making sure the exception here matches up exactly with Thomas’s salary. Think of the exception as simply a player that makes $9M. When you stop looking at an exception as a unique entity and instead simply as a placeholder for a player that is no longer there…makes it easier. If Thomas only makes $8M, that extra $1M flows over. It gets absorbed into the larger deal - basically X amount of salary for X amount of salary. Whether the total trade number is made up of players or players and exceptions - the only thing that matters is the total number.
July 12th, 2007 at 6:13 pm
Sonics70 - we can’t use a trade exception + players. That’s my point.
Brice - you’re contradicting yourself. Explain how we aren’t combining players with the trade exception. Because your post said exactly that - that they would be combined. This isn’t allowed.
July 12th, 2007 at 6:16 pm
Please reference where in the CBA it says we can’t combine exceptions and players to make a deal. Your last quote was in reference to combining exceptions to land a single player.
July 12th, 2007 at 6:19 pm
Sonics70:
“For example, a team with a $1 million Traded Player exception cannot combine it with their $2 million player to trade for a $3 million player”
http://members.cox.net/lmcoon/salarycap.htm#21
July 12th, 2007 at 6:21 pm
BW - you are confusing the subject
you CAN NOT combine the exception and players to trade for a single contract, aka trading luke (6.5) and the exception (9.3) for lamar odom (13.5).
however, you CAN combine the exception and players to trade for several players, as long as the exception is not being used on a contract that is not more than 100% + 100,000 of the value of the exception, aka you can trade luke (6.5) and the exception (9.3) for vlad rad (5.6) and Kwame Brown (9)
the exception would absorb the entirity of vlad’s contract, we arent using a player AND the exception towards ONE contract. we are using the exception for ONE contract, and luke for the other
make sense?
July 12th, 2007 at 6:22 pm
“the exception would absorb the entirity of kwame’s contract, we arent using a player AND the exception towards ONE contract. we are using the exception for ONE contract, and luke for the other”
correction*
July 12th, 2007 at 6:23 pm
Dude…seriously. Are you kidding around here? What are you talking about?
Your example = Exception + Exception traded for 1 player (Not allowed)
My example = Exception + 2 players traded for 2 players (Allowed)
These two scenarios aren’t even remotely close…
July 12th, 2007 at 6:23 pm
Dude…seriously. Are you kidding around here? What are you talking about?
Your example = Exception + Exception traded for 1 player (Not allowed)
My example = Exception + 2 players traded for 2 players (Allowed)
These two scenarios aren’t even remotely close…
July 12th, 2007 at 6:27 pm
BW - that link didn’t even go to the quote you pulled.
July 12th, 2007 at 6:28 pm
You mean, I didn’t get to get in on this conversation. I’m so crushed. *brimming with snark*
July 12th, 2007 at 6:32 pm
Now we know why Rich Cho has a job.
July 12th, 2007 at 6:39 pm
Regarding this topic, Brian should use his connections to get a definite answer. I, like Big_Worm, still don’t think that this is a viable scenario. Either way, though, I’m not going to worry about it.
July 12th, 2007 at 6:40 pm
and one day, rich cho’s job shall be mine!! haha
anyway, time to hit up a sports bar and watch the mariners game
July 12th, 2007 at 6:42 pm
ok let me try to clarify this
Phoenix sends out:
Kurt Thomas (8 mil)
Leandro Barbosa (2.8 mil)
Total - 10.8 million
Seattle sends out:
Gelly (.8 mil)
Sene (2.1 mil)
Fortson (1.6 mil)
Total - 4.5 million
Phoenix takes in 4.5 million, which is not more than 125% + 100,000 than they are sending out
Seattle takes in 13.6 million, kurt’s contract is absorbed by the exception (8 mil), and we take in 5.6 million, which is not more than 125% + 100,000 of the 4.5 million we sent out
does this make sense?”
No, that doesn’t work at all under this circumstance.
July 12th, 2007 at 6:43 pm
“however, you CAN combine the exception and players to trade for several players, as long as the exception is not being used on a contract that is not more than 100% + 100,000 of the value of the exception, aka you can trade luke (6.5) and the exception (9.3) for vlad rad (5.6) and Kwame Brown (9)”
That, too, doesn’t work under the NBA collective bargaining agreement.
July 12th, 2007 at 6:48 pm
maybe not those names in particular (luke, kwame, vlad), but in theory it does work
http://members.cox.net/lmcoon/salarycap.htm#69
read paragraph 5 of #69, this trade is basically EXACTLY like that
ok, im really gone now
July 12th, 2007 at 6:53 pm
No, Brice, it doesn’t work that way based on the salaries of said players.
The trade exception could be used to acquire Kwame Brown; however, the trade exception can’t be combined with Luke Ridnour to acquire Brown and Vladimir Radmanovic.
July 12th, 2007 at 7:05 pm
One thing’s for sure, if we’re looking for the definition of a Presti player, it is the complete and utter opposite of Marcus “I got a new long term deal last year, so now I’m slumming it” Banks.
Anyone including him in a proposed trade needs to factor in PJ, Presti and/or Bennett snapping in about three months time and taking to the dude with a fire axe at the end of practise.
July 12th, 2007 at 8:01 pm
What or who is the source anyway? Sounds like another Rip Hamilton story.
July 12th, 2007 at 8:59 pm
I’m sorry AK, but either you are wrong, or Larry Coon is wrong, and frankly Larry gets the edge when it comes to credibility.
The CBA indicates that:
Team X can trade Player A (10 million), for Player B (4 million), Player C (5 million), and Player D (7 million) who are on Team Y.
Team X sends out:
Player A (10 million)
Team Y sends out:
Player B (4 million)
Player C (5 million)
Player D (7 million)
Team X absorbs Player B (4 million) with it’s trade exception (4 million), which now completes the previous trade it made with Team Z in which they had created an exception of (4 million) by sending out more salary than they received in return.
Team X then takes in Player C (5 million), and Player D (7 million) as incoming salary. It can not take in more than 10 million x 125% + 100,000 (12.6 million) which it is sending out. Since Player C (5 million), and Player D (7 million) only total 12 million, Team X meets the requirements of the CBA for this trade.
Team Y then takes in Player A (10 million) as incoming salary. It can not take in more than 12 million x 125% + 100,000 (15.1 million) which it is sending out. Since the salary of Player A is only 10 million, Team Y meets the requirements of the CBA for this trade.
Source: http://members.cox.net/lmcoon/salarycap.htm#69
.
Now let’s relate it to this current hypothetical situation.
Seattle sends out:
Gelabale (.8 million)
Sene (2.1 million)
Player TBA (1.6 million)
Phoenix sends out:
Thomas (8 million)
Barbosa (2.8 million outgoing)
Seattle absorbs Thomas (8 million) with it’s trade exception (9 million), which now pretty much completes the previous trade Seattle made with Orlando in which they created an exception of (9 million) by sending out Rashard (9 million) and only receiving a draft pick (0 value) in return.
Seattle then takes in Barbosa (5.6 million incoming) as incoming salary. It can not take in more than 4.5 million x 125% + 100,000 (5.7 million) which it is sending out. Since Barbosa (5.6 million incoming) only totals 5.6 million, Seattle meets the requirements of the CBA for this trade.
Phoenix then takes in Gelabale (.8 million), Sene (2.1 million), and Player TBA (1.6 million) as incoming salary. It can not take in more than 10.8 million x 125% + 100,000 (13.6 million) which it is sending out. Since Gelabale (.8 million), Sene (2.1 million), and Player TBA (1.6 million) only total 4.5 million, Phoenix meets the requirements of the CBA for this trade.
.
You just have to remember, that whoever we absorb with the trade exception, is technically not part of this trade on Seattle’s side, it is part of completing the Rashard trade with Orlando; but it is part of the trade on the Phoenix side since he is salary they are sending out.
July 12th, 2007 at 9:03 pm
sorry, correction to the last paragraph of the “Team X, Team Y” trade
Team Y then takes in Player A (10 million) as incoming salary. It can not take in more than 17 million x 125% + 100,000 (21.35 million) which it is sending out. Since the salary of Player A is only 10 million, Team Y meets the requirements of the CBA for this trade.
but it doesnt really matter since the trade works either way
July 12th, 2007 at 9:07 pm
“If they are that desperate to dump salary would they consider dumping Marion to the Sonics? Would the sonics want him? Big salary but he’s a great player who can play “D”. Strong rebounder. Super versatile which Presti likes.”
I believe the answer is yes. Marion’s name has come up numerous times in possible trades. He’s more likely to be dealt because of his age and high salary then Barbosa. Marion is perfect for the Suns, though. If the Suns are desparate to dump salary, Marion makes the most sense, after Thomas. Both were critical pieces to their team last year, but Marion was a much more integral part. One could argue that dumping Diaw is a better move for the Suns, however his contract would be much more difficult to move. He has a lot more years left on his contract then Marion or Thomas.
July 12th, 2007 at 9:10 pm
I’m telling you I went round and round on this one with Coon until I finally understood what was meant by combining exceptions. The deal is that you cannot take back a single player worth more than any one exception. You can “combine” them in the sense of using multiple excpetions to form one larger “combined” deal.
July 12th, 2007 at 9:12 pm
ya, but in this case no one player in the deal has a salary which is larger than 100% + 100,000 than that of the trade exception.
do ask rich, i’d love to know the answer to this
July 12th, 2007 at 9:16 pm
Here’s the big problem. If I were to hypothetically ask Rich he’ll never go on record as commenting on a hypothetical trade. Coon may be the better guy. I’ll e-mail him tomorrow.
From the phoenix perspective it’s one trade. THat’s the difference maker that people are unwilling to aknowledge.
Brice has it down pat. He gets it.
July 12th, 2007 at 9:19 pm
The source on this one is dodgy at best. It’s a “what if?” or “is it possible?” conversation at this point.
Personally I love the salary cap so this is a fun mental exercise.
July 12th, 2007 at 9:24 pm
According to RealGM, Brian, you’re wrong about this.
http://realgm.com/src_checktrade.php?tradeid=4098819
http://realgm.com/src_checktrade.php?tradeid=4098828
Also, the RealGM trade checker accounts for trade exceptions.
July 12th, 2007 at 9:26 pm
Off topic but had to say:
I was just listening to KJR on my way home and Elise comes on and starts bitching about all the moves that have taken place since the draft. Not the most unexpected rant. However when she brought up the Rashard deal she said we lost him to Orlando for nothing. Yes that’s right she said ‘nothing’. How in the hell can any local sports media person be so cluless? I believe it was on hoopsinsider that I read a piece of an article in the P-I that states that the word floating around Vegas is that Presti made a brilliant move in attaining the trade exception. It said that trade exceptions are rare in the NBA let alone one of this size. Really a brilliant move all things considered according to league insiders. That’s what the article points out. So how can KJR be so effing disconnected? And if anyone still thinks Elise is some kind of huge Sonic fan, you should get your head checked.
July 12th, 2007 at 9:26 pm
Well, my crazy triple post that’s currently in moderation indicates that Brian and Brice are wrong in this case.
July 12th, 2007 at 9:26 pm
im with ya brian, as someone who is going to school to hopefully get a position in a pro sports front office i love doing these kinds of things
July 12th, 2007 at 9:31 pm
Also, Brian, you still seem to fail that Lenadro Barbosa cap number is worth the full $5,600,000 to the team that obtains him rather than the $2,800,000 that the Phoenix Suns can acquire in return for the guy.
Since the team that Barbosa is going out to will absorb the full amount of his salary via the trade due to him being a base-year compensation player, his outgoing value is $5,600,000.
July 12th, 2007 at 9:33 pm
Wow, having to use the analytical/mathematical part of my brain to such an extent has taken a toll on the creative/linguistic part of my brain, as is noted by the grammatical and syntactical errors within my previous post.
July 12th, 2007 at 9:34 pm
As a guy working on a presentation for tomorrow while watching the M’s and occassionally checking this site I marvel at how much you guys know about this stuff. Despite the nuanced disagreements it’s great reading for the slightly more casual fan. Great site and info. Keep up the good work.
July 12th, 2007 at 9:35 pm
Look, y’all can just delete the triple post that I’ve got in the moderation queue, since I’ll just post the two links that prove my post in back-to-back posts.
TRADE PROPOSAL #1
http://realgm.com/src_checktrade.php?tradeid=4098819
That trade proposal works within the rules and regulations of the NBA collective bargaining agreement.
July 12th, 2007 at 9:36 pm
TRADE PROPOSAL #2
http://realgm.com/src_checktrade.php?tradeid=4098828
That trade proposal doesn’t work under the rules and regulations of the NBA collective bargaining agreement, which y’all don’t seem to comprehend.
July 12th, 2007 at 9:38 pm
Well, due to the fact that I’m an idiot, I accidentally flipped around the two trade proposals. No matter the slight mistake, however, my point remains the same.
July 12th, 2007 at 9:39 pm
we aren’t absorbing barbosa’s salary with the exception, we are absorbing Thomas’s salary with the exception
“When comparing salaries for trade, teams use their own player’s BYC value and the other player’s full salary”
Phoenix compares salaries of the trade by using Barbosa’s BYC value which = 2.8 million
Seattle compares salaries of the trade by using Barbosa’s full salary which = 5.6 million
which i made a point of in my breakdown
July 12th, 2007 at 9:43 pm
and frankly i dont care what the RealGM trade checker says. After reading Larry Coon’s write up, and the actual text of the CBA, the proof is in the writing to back up my statement.
ill trust the actual CBA and a group of people who have spent the last decade studying it over some javascript program.
for all we know the realGM trade chcker is applying the exception to barbosa and not thomas and messing the whole thing up
July 12th, 2007 at 9:47 pm
As a means to apply certain nuances to the NBA collective bargaining agreement, I’ve never used the RealGM trade checker prior to this. Yet, as it is, I trust that thing more than anyone here—including myself.
July 12th, 2007 at 9:47 pm
also, another reason why you can’t use the trade checker in this situation is because fotson or brown on a 1.6million dollar contract doesnt exist in reality, it is only in theory
you have petro + sene + gelabale which only equals = 3.9 million x 125% + 100,000 = 4.975 million, which doesnt mean the requirements of the CBA when bringing in 5.6 million
July 12th, 2007 at 9:56 pm
I completely disregard realgm in the case of a deal this complicated. No fault to them but This is not a simple atter of adding up the salaries.
I’m done giving the same points to AK. It’s silly. His trade value to the Sonics is $5.6 million. That’s why they’ve got to send out roughly $4.3 million in salary. The BYC obstacle is not with Seattle in this case, it’s with Phoenix who sends him out at a value of $2.8 and thus can only take that amount back. It’s easy to trade %5.6 for $2.8, hard to trade $2.8 for $5.6. Do you understand that?
So Phoenix is sending out the (BYC affected) value of $2.8 and they need to find a way to take back an amount of $4.3 or greater. How do they do that, by expanding the size of the deal and sending more out. They need a team with cap space or a trade exception so that they can make the trade bigger. That team is seattle. It all gets done.
July 12th, 2007 at 9:59 pm
All right, the trio of Mouhamed Sene ($2,105,520), Johan Petro ($1,077,120), Delonte West ($1,889,759) — who’s added into the equation solely for numerical purposes — and Mickael Gelabale ($802,000) equals a total of $5,874,399.
http://realgm.com/src_checktrade.php?tradeid=4098913
Yet, as is indicated within the above link, that still doesn’t work under the rules and regulations of the NBA collective bargaining agreement.
July 12th, 2007 at 10:06 pm
“I’m done giving the same points to AK. It’s silly. His trade value to the Sonics is $5.6 million. That’s why they’ve got to send out roughly $4.3 million in salary. The BYC obstacle is not with Seattle in this case, it’s with Phoenix who sends him out at a value of $2.8 and thus can only take that amount back. It’s easy to trade %5.6 for $2.8, hard to trade $2.8 for $5.6. Do you understand that?”
With an incoming salary of $2,800,000, the Phoenix Suns can only take back a maximum amount of $4,400,000 in players’ salaries in return for a departing Leandro Barbosa. Anything greater than that would be in direct violation of him being a base-year compensation player.
I’ve constantly stated that throughout this debate.
My issue, however, is with your misunderstanding of how liberally a traded player exception can be used in a case like this. In essence, your trade proposal circumvents the salary cap and, in turn, is an invalid idea.
I get it.
RealGM gets it.
You don’t seem to get it.
July 12th, 2007 at 10:06 pm
as i already said and as brian stated, i just don’t trust a javascript application with a trade this complicated
it’s a nice little tool for messing around with, but if figuring out if trades worked under the CBA were as easy as typing some names into a html web browser form using a javascript engine, then people like rich cho wouldn’t have a job
July 12th, 2007 at 10:06 pm
Man…..the NBA is totally farked up.
We want to trade a few dudes for another dude. Should be as simple as that.
July 12th, 2007 at 10:07 pm
My dogma ate your CBA!
Good night folks.
July 12th, 2007 at 10:08 pm
Wait, the Phoenix Suns can only take back a combined total of $3,600,000 in players’ salaries rather than $4,400,000, as $3,600,000 is $2,800,000 multiplied by 125% plus $100,000.
July 12th, 2007 at 10:10 pm
With an incoming salary of $2,800,000, the Phoenix Suns can only take back a maximum amount of $4,400,000 in players’ salaries in return for a departing Leandro Barbosa. Anything greater than that would be in direct violation of him being a base-year compensation player.
I’ve constantly stated that throughout this debate.
My issue, however, is with your misunderstanding of how liberally a traded player exception can be used in a case like this. In essence, your trade proposal circumvents the salary cap and, in turn, is an invalid idea.
The Phoenix Suns are sending out 10.8 million in salary, not 2.8 million, therefore they can take back a maximum of 13.6 million, this is what you are failing to understand
even if we completely disregard barbosa’s BYC status. Phoenix sends out 13.6 in salary, and they can therefore take in up to 17.1 million
in this case it just means seattle has to send out a little more in salary to make their end work.
you keep disregarding the fact that on the phoenix end, kurt thomas’s 8 million salary is part of their trade, and lets them take in more than 2.8×125%+100,000
July 12th, 2007 at 10:11 pm
I’d understand not trusting the RealGM trade checker if the thing never accounted for trade exceptions; however, the following links provides evidence that counters such a claim.
http://realgm.com/src_checktrade.php?tradeid=4098959
Hell, it even references that a traded player exception was used in that case.
July 12th, 2007 at 10:16 pm
Yes, Brice, you’re right about that. The following links shows that the Seattle Supersonics could make the following trade.
FROM PHOENIX & TO SEATTLE
PF Kurt Thomas ($8,091,187)
SG Leandro Barbosa ($2,800,000 Incoming & $5,600,000 Outgoing) [Base Year Compensation Player]
FROM SEATTLE & TO PHOENIX
PF Chris Wilcox ($6,500,000)
PG Earl Watson ($5,800,000)
C Johan Petro ($1,077,120)
http://realgm.com/src_checktrade.php?tradeid=4098975
A traded player exception can’t be used in a case similar to that, however, since it’s being combined with a group of players rather than being used on its own.
July 12th, 2007 at 10:19 pm
so basically you are saying larry coon doesn’t know what he is talking about?
July 12th, 2007 at 10:24 pm
According to my recollection of the traded player exception prior to today — as well as the proof that’s been provided by the RealGM trade checker — it appears that y’all misinterpreted Larry Coon’s commentary.
July 12th, 2007 at 11:01 pm
http://members.cox.net/lmcoon/salarycap.htm#75
read #75
orlando is that 3rd team, our trade exception is the 3rd team that the suns trade kurt thomas to in order to send out enough salary in order to receive our players back.
instead of finding a team under the cap to create a trade exception with, we just use our trade exception from orlando as that team.
phoenix sends out a total of 10.8 million, receives 4.5, they are good
seattle sends out 4.5, receives 5.6, they are good
we sent 9.3 million to orlando, and received 8 million in return from phoenix to fill the exception we had, we’re good
.
another example of a team receiving multiple players in return, and only applying the trade exception to one of those players
http://members.cox.net/lmcoon/salarycap.htm#69
i’ve already posted this at least 3 times, paragraph 5
July 12th, 2007 at 11:05 pm
Call it like KC: Except for Ian, KJR is a bunch of slack-jawed mouthbreathers. Being female doesn’t mean Elise isn’t a brainless jock, so don’t expect too much intelligent from her.
July 12th, 2007 at 11:23 pm
Brice, in the example you keep providing, which is a $10M player + a $4M exception for $7M, $5M and $4M players, the reason it works is because it is essentially TWO SEPARATE TRADES:
$4M exception for $4M player
and
$10M player for $7M player + $5M player
the key to this working is that the exception is not combined with a player or players. That is FUNDAMENTALLY DIFFERENT than the deal you’re trying to lay out for Barbosa.
Again, I state: you cannot trade away an exception and player(s) in the same deal.
July 12th, 2007 at 11:31 pm
Okay, Brian and Brice are off base in this case.
http://realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?t=684578
Within the previous link, there are comments that fully concur with what I’ve been stating throughout this entire debate.
Anyway, it’s totally understandable that you two would make inaccurate conjectures, since this is a substantially complicated issue.
July 12th, 2007 at 11:34 pm
BW - you cant just trade an exception for a player, you need something to trigger the trade like a draft pick. i dont see any mention of “they traded a draft pick for the 4 million dollar player and then absorbed his salary with the exception”
it is all one trade happening simultaneously.
read this http://members.cox.net/lmcoon/salarycap.htm#75
this trade involves exceptions/cap space, multiple players, draft picks to create exceptions, and a BYC player, and it all works out as one big simultaneous trade
like i said in a post that’s still in moderation, we don’t need that third team because we already created the exception on our own team to absorb the added contract phoenix has to send out
July 12th, 2007 at 11:36 pm
Brice Says:
you can trade luke (6.5) and the exception (9.3) for vlad rad (5.6) and Kwame Brown (9)
the exception would absorb the entirity of vlad’s contract, we arent using a player AND the exception towards ONE contract. we are using the exception for ONE contract, and luke for the other
make sense?
>>>
That DOES make sense, YES, because that works as two separate trades.
Aka, you could trade:
Luke (6.5) for Vlad Rad (5.6) in one deal
and
The exception (9.3) for Kwame Brown (9.0)
Yes, that works. Unfortunately, it again is FUNDAMENTALLY DIFFERENT than the deal you’re trying to work for Barbosa. The reason is the exception trade works on its own, separate from the player trade. It doesn’t depend on combining the trades, which is why it works, and which is why the Barbosa trade DOES NOT work.
July 12th, 2007 at 11:43 pm
No, Big_Worm, Luke Ridnour is a base-year compensation player; thus, he can’t be traded straight up for Vladimir Radmanovic once the Seattle Supersonics were to burn its trade exception on Kwame Brown.
It’s actually the same problem that would be incurred through the illogical scenario involving Leandro Barbosa that’s been pushed down our throats this entire evening.
July 12th, 2007 at 11:45 pm
AK - I was going to mention that, but I figured better to let sleeping dogs lie. I just used that because Brice provided the example with salary figures. If Luke was not a BYC player then it would work, but you are correct, due to BYC issues it would not technically work. But replace Luke’s name with ‘random non BYC player’ and it works.
July 12th, 2007 at 11:47 pm
No, Brice, the trade exception that’s been created through the Ray Allen deal is worth only $2,531,090; thus, it isn’t large enough to allow the Seattle Supersonics to absorb Leandro Barbosa’s $5,600,000 salary without sending out at least $4,400,000 in players’ salaries elsewhere.
July 12th, 2007 at 11:48 pm
Brice - you might be right about not being able to trade an exception for a player, but that doesn’t change the crux of the argument. Just assume that seattle is throwing a 2nd round pick in as well - I’m guessing that’s an assumption that the FAQ makes.
July 12th, 2007 at 11:55 pm
Rather than including an actual asset like a future second-round draft pick, Big_Worm, it’d make more sense for the Seattle Supersonics to make the following trade.
FROM PHOENIX
PF Kurt Thomas ($8,091,187)
2008 First-Round Draft Pick
2008 First-Round Draft Pick (Via The Atlanta Hawks)
FROM SEATTLE
PF Peter Fehse (Draft Rights)
SG Yotam Halperin (Draft Rights)
PG Paccelis Morlende (Draft Rights)
http://realgm.com/src_checktrade.php?tradeid=4097716
Not only would Sam Presti obtain a serviceable frontcourt player and two first-round draft picks in the 2008 NBA Draft — which will probably be stocked with a ton of great backcourt players — but he’d also give up nothing more than fungible assets that have practically zero value.
July 13th, 2007 at 12:54 am
I clicked on here to check out the latest rumor and got myself into a 200 post long debate about numbers.
so ahh… any updates on the rumor? Basketball wise this is a sound move. Kurt Thomas will be the veteran leadership we sorely need at the moment..Barbosa is a bit overrated IMO, the guy is erratic and has no intention of setting up in half-court. He’s best utilized in the Suns’ offense, so much so he is one of their core player. I don’t know how’s he’s going to fit in with PJ.
on the other hand, Derek Fisher is signing with the Lakers… CORRECT ME if I”m wrong, didn’t that boy asked for a buy-out from the Jazz so he could take a year off and care for his daughter??? Now he turns around and signs with the Lakers? What the crap is that?
July 13th, 2007 at 1:02 am
Well, the remainder of Derek Fisher’s previous contract was entirely voided by the NBA due to special circumstances. In light of health issues concerning Fisher’s daughter — supposedly, the Salt Lake City region lacks adequate health care facilities — the Utah Jazz and him agreed to part ways without any financial implications.
As it is, though, I’ve never seen a situation like that prior to this.
July 13th, 2007 at 1:07 am
Oh good… I thought Fisher screwed the Jazz over by telling them he would retire and asked for a buy-out.. and then turn around to another team.
fair deal then I guess.. Good for Fisher
July 13th, 2007 at 2:50 am
I think I read Fisher was contemplating retirement but wasn’t a sure thing.
July 13th, 2007 at 4:09 am
Phoenix knows they have an almost untradeable asset in Barbosa. Phoenix would have to want the cap space plus just about anything off of The Sonic roster. Of course, Durant won’t be traded unless Lebron is the deal. The Matrix would be the guy to target there.
Brent Barry would be a great leader for The Sonics. The Spurs aren’t maximizing Barry’s value right now, so he should be pretty cheap.
Gilbert Arenas for next year’s first and Ridnour/Petro?
I wonder how big Presti’s next splash will be?
July 13th, 2007 at 4:53 am
I imagine these guys meet Presti’s requirements,
West
Durant
Green
Collison
Swift
(Can PJ teach Wilcox to defend)
Presti should be able to trade for a player and add him to that list in year 1.
He’ll get the next piece in next year’s lottery and the final prized piece in 08/09 free agent lottery.
This plan gives The Sonics eight Studs. I think eight is enough.
Along with some veteran role-playa’s, Northwest b-ball will shine brightly.
July 13th, 2007 at 5:37 am
Now that they’ve signed Grant Hill perhaps they’ll consider trading the Matrix.
July 13th, 2007 at 5:47 am
whatever the numbers,ive been thinking abnout the sonics needs.the three players id like too see added to the roster are kurt thomas,rip hamilton and jorge calderon.ship out wilkins petro and watson.then you got all bases covered with scoring,defense.and depth.use the trade exception and any number of draft picks.this would also protect durant and swift.
July 13th, 2007 at 6:17 am
I’m not sure why we should be interested in Shawn Marion when we’ve just drafted two guys that could very well play both forward spots and with Collison and Wilcox on our team as well.
Trading for him makes no sense at all and the only guy i’d be interested on their team is Barbosa. Though, i’ve got a hard time believing that they’ll deal him and the most likely guy they’d try to get rid of should be Diaw, cause he’s not worth his contract and they just added another great passer in Grant Hill.
July 13th, 2007 at 6:27 am
The Suns have made Marion available, otherwise they’ll lose him for nothing next year. Phoenix might want some draft picks and/or Green. This should be a viable option if Presti can work out a reasonable long-term contract with Marion before a trade.
The Spurs just acquired Vassilis Spanoulis, which perhaps causes Brent Barry to be available for cap space and a 2nd round pick.
July 13th, 2007 at 6:28 am
I also think they want to trade Diaw before Barbosa but even if I love his game, Boris doesn’t make sense in our roster anymore.
I would be fine with Thomas+Hawks pick for the exception but Barbosa would clearly be a good fit.
Gelabale and Petro would be good in the Suns system IMO, so if they are that serious about saving money I could see them do that kind of deal. It remains unlikely though
July 13th, 2007 at 6:40 am
Petro and/or Sene plus draft pick’s and cap space:
Ridnour - Watson - Wilks
West - Wally - Gelabale
Durant - Green - Wilkens
Marion - Wilcox - Green
Swift - Collison - Petro or Sene
I’d roll with Durant, Marion and next year’s lottery pick versus Oden, Aldridge and Roy. Would you?
July 13th, 2007 at 6:51 am
Again, Marion does not fit on this roster and looking at your roster, we’d still be lacking a real sg.
Marion’s contract is another reason for me to not trade for him.
We’re rebuilding and adding a guy on a close to max contract that plays the same positions as Durant and Green doesn’t makes any sense at all.
Like i said, Barbosa is the guy we should be looking for. If he’s not available then we should look at Thomas and that 1st round pick and nothing else on their roster.
July 13th, 2007 at 6:52 am
Unless you would trade next year’s lottery pick, Barbosa won’t be had….he is simply one of the best guards in the league.
Diaw doesn’t make sense and Phoenix seems pretty committed to keeping him. It appears The Matrix is available or else Phoenix realizes they’ll lose him for nothing….the only problem is that more than likely The Suns will make one last run for a title with Marion before he moves on in free agency.
Anything involving Phoenix most likely would involve Kurt Thomas and their draft pick, helping them save money.
July 13th, 2007 at 7:03 am
Hypothetical scenario:
Trade 1:
Kurt Thomas and a 1st Round pick for one trade exception.
Trade 2:
Brent Barry for a 2nd Round pick, maybe Gelabale, Wilkens, Petro or Sene and the other trade exception.
July 13th, 2007 at 7:19 am
“Unless you would trade next year’s lottery pick, Barbosa won’t be had….he is simply one of the best guards in the league.”
Like i said, if he aint available then the only thing we should look for(if we’d still want to deal with them) would be that Kurt Thomas + 1st round pick for Trade Exception deal.
BTW: I don’t think that they’d want our 1st and i’d first would throw all of those 2nd rounders we’ve got at them and see what happens.
“Diaw doesn’t make sense and Phoenix seems pretty committed to keeping him. It appears The Matrix is available or else Phoenix realizes they’ll lose him for nothing….the only problem is that more than likely The Suns will make one last run for a title with Marion before he moves on in free agency.”
Yes, Boris Diaw doesn’t makes any sense at all for us, cause he’s no sg and that’s what we need.
Though, as Marion isn’t a sg either, he shouldn’t be added as well.
July 13th, 2007 at 7:20 am
“Trade 2:
Brent Barry for a 2nd Round pick, maybe Gelabale, Wilkens, Petro or Sene and the other trade exception.”
I’d do a Watson for Barry deal, but nothing else.
July 13th, 2007 at 7:45 am
It still sounds like the Bucks will have to trade Yi before October.
If Mo Williams signs with Miami then they’ll also need a point guard.
If the Bucks begin to panic, I imagine Presti will try and take advantage.
July 13th, 2007 at 8:00 am
I should be done dreaming for the day after this one:
Yi and Redd for Green and Ridnour. Sonics would have to throw in some 2nd Round picks and a player like Petro, Sene or Wilkens.
Watson - West - Wilks
Redd - West - (Wally Z)
Durant - Gelabale
Wilcox - Yi
Swift - Collison
Michael Redd > Ray Allen
July 13th, 2007 at 8:03 am
If by some miracle we got Redd, this team would be in great condition for the future. Finals appearance in 4 yrs.
July 13th, 2007 at 8:13 am
Like Pritchard and Portland, Presti will only need one more off-season to finish acquiring all of the nessecary pieces. Durant and his crew should then need a year or two to develop and mesh together. Appearing in The Finals in four years is right on schedule.
July 13th, 2007 at 8:16 am
Why in the hell would Milwaukee trade their two best players?
July 13th, 2007 at 8:20 am
What is going on here?
This isn’t CelticsBlog, folks, so let’s stop it with the homeristic trade proposals.
July 13th, 2007 at 8:25 am
This trade shouldn’t have been made so complicated.
We are using the exception to absorb Kurt Thomas’s Contract
We are sending about 4.4million back to the suns to compensate for Barbosa’s contract.
These are two trades done simultaneously as one trade, so the outgoing salaries of the Suns are much higher, allowing them to take back more than the 2.8million owed to Barbosa.
Does that make sense to people?
July 13th, 2007 at 8:26 am
Marion would be a great fit for this Sonics team according to my trade proposal.
Kurt Thomas and Shawn Marion
for
Chris Wilcox, Luke Ridnour, Damian Wilkens and Mo Sene and our trade exception
Ridnour and Wilcox would be great fits within the Phoenix style as guys who like to get up the court. They apparently really liked Sene last year.
Here’s what my team looks like after this trade proposal
Guards: Watson, West, Gelebale, Hodge, Dowdell/Wilks (pick 1)
Forwards: Durant, Marion, Green, Collison, Sczerbiak
Centers: Swift, Petro, K. Thomas
Your starting lineup is probably Watson, West, Durant, Marion, Swift
Marion does his best work as a 4. He defends the 4 very well and would be the offensive scorer needed to take some pressure off Durant.
Thomas can play either the 4 or the 5, provides a better option in case Swift gets hurt than Petro. Additionally, his expiring contract becomes very valuable around the trade deadline.
This also accomplishes the goal of consolidating the roster a bit for the Sonics while Phoenix is in the opposite situation of not having enough guys due to the draft pick trades.
Phoenix sheds a bunch of money off their luxury tax situation, while getting back a couple guys who can be contributors and not doing a total salary dump.
July 13th, 2007 at 8:28 am
If this deal goes through, I hope that Sonics can find a way to get rid of Wilkins.
July 13th, 2007 at 8:29 am
Okay, guys, those trade proposals don’t work under the rules and regulations of the NBA collective bargaining agreement.
To put it bluntly, players can’t be combined with a trade exception.
July 13th, 2007 at 8:31 am
As you can see, Jeremy, this trade proposal works.
http://realgm.com/src_checktrade.php?tradeid=4100073
July 13th, 2007 at 8:35 am
Your trade proposal, Jeremy, doesn’t work.
http://www.realgm.com/src_checktrade.php?tradeid=4100080
In this case, folks, Brian and Brice are wrong. No matter how much disdain you have for my abrasive nature or writing style, I’ve proven myself to be correct here.
At this point, though, it’s seems like a lost cause dealing with you guys.
July 13th, 2007 at 8:38 am
“At this point, though, it’s seems like a lost cause dealing with you guys.”
Then give up already.
July 13th, 2007 at 8:45 am
If it weren’t for the fact that I care so much about the subject, then I’d've given up a long time ago.
In the meantime, however, my best bet is to wait for someone such as Scott or Steve — who hold a decent amount of weight around here — to come and back me up on this issue.
July 13th, 2007 at 8:45 am
How exactly have you proven yourself right? I’ll ask again for you to take the example from Coon in which I’ve substituted our players and teams and tell me excatly what component of the scenario does not work
July 13th, 2007 at 8:46 am
I think AKs trade proposals are pretty darn fungible if you ask me…
July 13th, 2007 at 8:51 am
If the rumor were correct a package of Mo Sene, Mikeal Gelabale, and a second round pick (along with the trade exception) for Thomas and Barbosa would work. Before AK can say that it wouldn’t via the CBA I checked it carefully and it does in fact work.
Now why the hell Phoenix would do this other than to save money is beyond me.
Now with Petro added in to hte mix AK is absolutely correct, the deal does not work. The key is in the details of hte cap, some of which Realgm doesn’t take into account when running thier trade checker.
July 13th, 2007 at 8:54 am
Brian - I’ve explained a couple of times why Coon’s example is different. I’ll try it one more time:
In Coon’s example, he is not combining the exception with a player.
In your example, you ARE doing this.
July 13th, 2007 at 8:55 am
Oddly, I wish a person such as Larry Coon or Rich Cho here to definitively answer this debate.
Until that point in time, though, I’m going to stand behind RealGM.
July 13th, 2007 at 8:59 am
Yeah, Big_Worm is right about that.
Within Larry Coon’s example, it’s a matter of dealing the trade exception for a given player; next, a completely seperate deal — sans any type of trade exception whatsoever — is consummated.
To the best of my knowledge, the trade proposal that y’all have created is invalid.
July 13th, 2007 at 9:02 am
A majority of the people who discussed this issue within the following link ultimately concurred with Big_Worm and I.
http://realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?t=684578
July 13th, 2007 at 9:03 am
Read this paragraph closely:
[i]This is legal — the $5 million and $7 million players together make less than the 125% plus $100,000 allowed for the $10 million player ($12,600,000), and the $4 million player exactly fits within the $4 million Traded Player exception. So the $4 million player actually [b]completes the previous trade, leaving the two teams trading a $10 million player for a $5 million and a $7 million player.[/b] From the other team’s perspective it’s all just one big simultaneous trade: their $4 million, $5 million and $7 million players for the $10 million player.[/i]
The reason this works is because in actuality it is two separate trades.
July 13th, 2007 at 9:05 am
dang. how do you do bold and italics? is it html?
July 13th, 2007 at 9:05 am
Big Work states
Again, I state: you cannot trade away an exception and player(s) in the same deal.
Not accurate. you can totally use them in the same deal, you cannot use them for THE SAME PLAYER.
I’ll say again, combining exceptions means that you use them together for one player who does not fit into either exception seperately. It does not mean that you don’t combine them to use in one deal that is bigger than all the various components.
Look again at the Coon example above. It’s clear that they use multiple exceptions as part of the same deal.
I was looking for more proof but I’m not going to do it. AK just doesn’t budge from his perspective.
July 13th, 2007 at 9:10 am
Brian - again, that is two deals, not one.
$4M player for $4M exception = deal one.
$10M player for $5M+$7M player = deal two.
Read the last sentence of the paragraph: From the other team’s perspective it’s all just one big simultaneous trade.
This clearly implies that from the first team’s perspective, it is NOT one big trade.
July 13th, 2007 at 9:14 am
This is the paragraph to me that illustrates totally why this works with the last sentence being the crux. From the Phoenix perspective this trade is just one big trade sending out Thomas and Barbosa.
Here is a more complicated example of a legal non-simultaneous trade: a team has a $4 million Traded Player exception from an earlier trade, and a $10 million player it currently wants to trade. Another team has three players making $4 million, $5 million and $7 million, and the teams want to do a three-for-one trade with these players. This is legal — the $5 million and $7 million players together make less than the 125% plus $100,000 allowed for the $10 million player ($12,600,000), and the $4 million player exactly fits within the $4 million Traded Player exception. So the $4 million player actually completes the previous trade, leaving the two teams trading a $10 million player for a $5 million and a $7 million player. From the other team’s perspective it’s all just one big simultaneous trade: their $4 million, $5 million and $7 million players for the $10 million player.
July 13th, 2007 at 9:15 am
Wow…we have some serious mental deficiency going on here. Brian has explained this thing about 50 times and you still don’t get it. Once again, you’re making senseless arguments just to keep people interacting with you.
Let’s see what happens when the pros, who I think have a better understanding of the cap than a bunch of amateurs using a website do, make something happen.
July 13th, 2007 at 9:17 am
Also, carefully read this paragraph:
Can exceptions be combined when making trades?
Only to a very limited extent. Teams can use different exceptions to acquire multiple players in the same trade if those players could also have been acquired individually using those exceptions. For example, a team may trade a $5 million player for a $5.5 million player and two 10-year veterans earning $1 million each on minimum-salary contracts. The minimum salary exception is used for the two minimum-salary players, and the $5.5 million player is acquired using the Traded Player exception ($5.5 million is within 125% plus $100,000 of $5 million). This is allowed, since those players could have been acquired separately using those same exceptions.
We cannot trade for Barbosa unless we bring a 3rd team that is under the cap in to it. The reason is because it doesn’t satisfy the requirements that are bolded in that paragraph.
July 13th, 2007 at 9:18 am
As Big_Worm stated, it’s two separate entities (i.e., trades).
July 13th, 2007 at 9:18 am
What is going on here?
This isn’t CelticsBlog, folks, so let’s stop it with the homeristic trade proposals.
Of all people I can’t believe you, AK, are calling phenoms trade proposals homeristic. You post like 5 different trades a day, with the hopes that ONE goes down one day, then you can repost it in an “I told you so” post. If you are allowed to dream impossible trades, no reason to call others on it.
July 13th, 2007 at 9:20 am
Dude, Brian and Sonics70, you guys are totally wrong here.
Thankfully, Big_Worm is picking up the slack for me, ’cause otherwise nobody here would have the mental capacity to understand this issue. Obviously, it’s a complicated situation, ableit not as much so that y’all shouldn’t've gotten it by now.
July 13th, 2007 at 9:21 am
Dave, my trade proposals are unrealistic, but they aren’t homeristic. Those are two different things.
July 13th, 2007 at 9:21 am
AK,
My trade does work. Kurt Thomas can be absorbed by the exception. Take out KT and the exception and run it through.
http://www.realgm.com/src_checktrade.php?tradeid=4100288.
If you’d prefer, you could make 2 simultaneous trades.
KT for exception
Marion for Wilcox, Ridnour, Sene, Wilkens
I think you are misinformed on this one.
July 13th, 2007 at 9:21 am
Sonics70 -
I absolutely understand the argument that Brian and Brice are making. It’s not a matter of ‘mental deficiency,’ but thanks for the insult. The problem here is that there is a fundamental assumption that they are making that I do not accept. That assumption is that you can combine a player with an exception in a trade. I still haven’t seen definitive proof that this can be done.
July 13th, 2007 at 9:26 am
Concering my trade proposals, Dave, there’d be no reason for me to say “I told you so” to anyone were one of them to occur.
Yet, regarding player evaluations and predictions, I do take them seriously. It irritates me that so many people here make asinine assumptions and aren’t held to them, while I constantly take the time and effort to objectively analyize things.
As I’ve stated numerous times within the past few days, my track record speaks for itself. Brian, on the other hand, has way more misses than hits (e.g., Clay Bennett, Johan Petro, Mouhamed Sene, Chris Wilcox, the 2006-2007 season, et al.).
Sadly, though, some of y’all seem to take this guy’s word as the gospel — other than Mr. Baker, who thankfully called him out one time for pandering to his contacts — which is dismaying in several aspects.
July 13th, 2007 at 9:28 am
Fine then BW take it as two seperate trades. We take Kurt Thomas and what do they get in return? OMG they get an $8M trade exception. If they have a $8M trade exception don’t you think they could take back $4.3M in salaries? What’s preventing them now? It works as seperate trades as well.
July 13th, 2007 at 9:28 am
For whatever it’s worth, Jeremy, your most recent trade proposal works ’cause the trade exception isn’t involved in it.
It’s a wholly different scenario than what we’ve been talking about thus far though the debate, though.
July 13th, 2007 at 9:31 am
Meanwhile, Brian and Brice claim that the following trade proposal works — even though the RealGM trade machine denies their plan — which is ’cause they can’t mentally comprehend Larry Coon’s material.
http://realgm.com/src_checktrade.php?tradeid=4100349
July 13th, 2007 at 9:33 am
P-I columnist Art Thiel can be reached at 206-448-8135 or artthiel@seattlepi.com.
Pending any last-ditch arena efforts, the new bosses appear to be exploiting a bad NBA system, bad previous Sonics management and bad luck. Under the easy-to-accept spin of skipping no steps to a Spurs-like future, they can foster more apathy with a dreary, training-wheels season that aids the attempt to see that that future doesn’t happen here.
July 13th, 2007 at 9:34 am
What’s preventing them now?
They can’t send us Barbosa and a trade exception for players because they can’t combine the exeption with a player.
Sure, if they have an $8M exception we could trade them players and they could absorb the salary. But they can’t send us Barbosa and still absorb those players using the exception.
If you accept the premise that you can’t combine the exception with players, there is no way to get Barbosa without getting a 3rd team involved.
July 13th, 2007 at 9:35 am
“Fine then BW take it as two seperate trades. We take Kurt Thomas and what do they get in return? OMG they get an $8M trade exception. If they have a $8M trade exception don’t you think they could take back $4.3M in salaries? What’s preventing them now? It works as seperate trades as well.”
Okay, that makes sense.
July 13th, 2007 at 9:35 am
Butler And Scola Traded To Houston.
Guess Houston doesn’t need Wilcox now.
July 13th, 2007 at 9:37 am
AK, as an FYI, I’m sending RealGM an email right now letting them know that I believe there is a bug in their implementation of the Traded Player Exception logic. I believe that my trade proves it.
If RealGM did calculate for the Traded Player Exception, adding KT to the trade should have been fine because it’s not combining exceptions, and it is a legal trade.
If I get an answer back from them, I will post it in the forum.
July 13th, 2007 at 9:37 am
No, Big_Worm, in that case they’d the Phoenix Suns would be able to do it.
Here’s an odd example of that, with the shoe being on the other foot.
http://realgm.com/src_checktrade.php?tradeid=4100361
July 13th, 2007 at 9:40 am
It might be a considered a matter of circumventing the salary cap with an under the table deal like that, though.
July 13th, 2007 at 9:40 am
I don’t take anyone’s coments here as gospel. We are all sonics fans (well I hope so) speculating about trades that will never happen and spending hundreds of posts figuring out things that ultimately are in other people’s hands. And in that same regard, I don’t care about your “track record.” Your posts have a shotgun efffect, one of them is bound to get the target but lets not act like they are all dead on either. I respect all you guys and all I’m saying is that keeping this an open environment benefits us all, so don’t dog on someones post and dismiss them. Take the time to explain why not or DON’T respond at all! Sorry that things “irritate” you, jsut as some people were annoyed with your writing style, but to both of those I say DEAL WITH IT! If it irritates you ignore it, just as I would expect people to ignore your choice of writing style. No need to disrespect.
On a basketball note the trade proposal of Redd + Yi for Green, Ridnour, Petro, Sene or Wilkens, picks is certainly far fetched, but for a team that got 28 wins last season I could see the bucks doing something drastic, especially since they may have shot themselves in the foot with Yi. things could get desperate in milwuakee.
On a basketball note it
July 13th, 2007 at 9:42 am
BW - you still haven’t proven your premise. Why do you keep referring to a portion of the salary cap FAQ that doesn’t support your thesis?
Absurdities are hard to disprove via logic…as they have no basis in reality.
This is the kind of thing that makes me think there is a screw or two loose there…
July 13th, 2007 at 9:44 am
That seems odd to me.
And why on earth does Phoenix get an $8M trade exception when they trade away Thomas? They don’t get to ‘re-use’ the exception, do they? It dies once the deal is made right? Otherwise we’d have trade exceptions all over the place in the NBA.
July 13th, 2007 at 9:45 am
Apropos of the personal shots that I sometimes take at people here, y’all shouldn’t take ‘em to heart. Hell, I respect everybody here — even though there’s times where that might not seem to be the case — and am proud to be a part of this community.
July 13th, 2007 at 9:45 am
Hilarious:
Howard signs with Magic for $85M-5 years. If the Magic were so keen on Shard, maybe we shoulda S&T him and send Watson, Wilkins, and Sene for Howard, it would come out a BARGAIN for Orlando, lol.
Please note the humor in this post.
July 13th, 2007 at 9:46 am
I tried the trade checker. It is fun.
If this 3 way trade happened I would be sooooooo happy. But I am probably just dreaming.
http://realgm.com/src_checktrade.php?tradeid=4100401
July 13th, 2007 at 9:46 am
Sonics70 - I’m not slinging any personal insults here, I’d appreciate it if you pay me the same respect.
Explain how the quoted passage dos not support my thesis?
July 13th, 2007 at 9:49 am
Dammit, Big_Worm made a good point.
Since I’m not sure of the parameters, it’s up to somebody who’s more knowledgeable than myself to tell us whether or not the Phoenix Suns would recieve a traded player exception upon trading Kurt Thomas and a couple of 2008 first-round draft picks to the Seattle Supersonics for a traded player exception and a tangible entity (e.g., the draft rights of Peter Fehse.)
What’s the answer to that?
July 13th, 2007 at 9:50 am
Concering my trade proposals, Dave, there’d be no reason for me to say “I told you so” to anyone were one of them to occur.
http://www.sonicscentral.com/bboard/viewtopic.php?t=3969
July 13th, 2007 at 9:52 am
Vinny-just what we needed, a SF!!! Now the roster will be complete. Seriously though why not just do Ridnour for Gooden?
July 13th, 2007 at 9:54 am
It’d be tight to have a truly astute, sagacious capologist around these parts. With TK as the resident statistician, it’d be nice to have somebody compliment him who’s well-versed with the NBA collective bargaining agreement.
Anyway, Vinny, I enjoy having you around here—especially since your trade proposals make mine seem more pragmatic.
July 13th, 2007 at 9:54 am
“Since I’m not sure of the parameters, it’s up to somebody who’s more knowledgeable than myself to tell us whether or not the Phoenix Suns would recieve a traded player exception upon trading Kurt Thomas and a couple of 2008 first-round draft picks to the Seattle Supersonics for a traded player exception and a tangible entity (e.g., the draft rights of Peter Fehse.)”
Yes they would recieve a traded player exception and we thus would no longer have the exception that we recieved in the Lewis deal.
There are a ton of trade exceptions out there, so few are ever this size which makes this one a bit unique. Most which are created through deals never are used as the teams let them expire to either create cap or avoid luxury tax.
July 13th, 2007 at 9:55 am
Dont want Gooden.
Want Duhon and Thomas.
On the back of Prestis car there is a bumper sticker that reads
“Wally = 12 mil,
Rashard = too much,
a roster full of SF = priceless”
July 13th, 2007 at 9:56 am
Please explain how your passage DOES support your thesis. You haven’t done that yet - not even close.
I can’t sit here and use logic to explain why aliens are telling you to set up a landing site for their ship. The burden is on you to make sense of your claims.
AK - the idea of leaving this to the professionals was brought up about 450 posts back…glad you’re on board finally.
July 13th, 2007 at 9:56 am
That “I told you so” was directed toward Steve mocking Greg Oden and David Lee, while defending Mouhamed Sene. Besides, my trade proposal from that point in time didn’t even occur — although Zach Randolph did eventually end up with the New York Knicks, albeit a year later than I had proposed — so your point doesn’t apply here.
July 13th, 2007 at 9:58 am
Devean George just re-signed with the Mavs, How are they doing, aren’t they in luxury land now? Maybe a deal goes down with them (Terry, Josh Howard, Stackhouse?) because, like the suns, they are overpaying and recently underachieving (in the playoffs).
July 13th, 2007 at 9:59 am
It’d be tight to have a truly astute, sagacious capologist around these parts.
Why do you talk like that?
July 13th, 2007 at 10:00 am
They trade away a player who makes $8 million. They take back zero. Why wouldn’t they recieve a trade exception? They aren’t transdering ours. Exceptions are not transferable, a brand spanking new one gets created every time a trade occurs in which a team trades out more money than they take in.
July 13th, 2007 at 10:01 am
Actually, Sonics70, I think that I agreed with you about the whole professionals thing when it was first mentioned during this monsterous tangent. Hell, I’ll never claim that I’m as apt as folks such as Sam Presti or Rich Cho — unlike Bill Simmons, who uses that sort of pompous arrogance within his shtick — so don’t think that I’m too full of myself.
July 13th, 2007 at 10:01 am
does it work with 2 trades ?
http://www.realgm.com/src_checktrade.php?tradeid=4100440
http://www.realgm.com/src_checktrade.php?tradeid=4100419
July 13th, 2007 at 10:03 am
Sonics70 -
I figured you wouldn’t be up to the challenge.
July 13th, 2007 at 10:07 am
“Why do you talk like that?”
I don’t talk like that; yet, I write like that.
In fact, I’m a pretty low-key speaker — even though I tend to frequently swear — who strays away from being pretentious by using big words or talking in a bombastic style.
“They trade away a player who makes $8 million. They take back zero. Why wouldn’t they recieve a trade exception? They aren’t transdering ours. Exceptions are not transferable, a brand spanking new one gets created every time a trade occurs in which a team trades out more money than they take in.”
Okay, I’ll assent to that explanation.
July 13th, 2007 at 10:08 am
You’re right…you can bring a horse to water but you can’t make him drink evidently…
July 13th, 2007 at 10:11 am
FWIW, I just found another bug in Trade Checker.
It will mark just about any trade as successful if a team doesn’t have any players coming back.
Check this doozy out.
http://www.realgm.com/src_checktrade.php?tradeid=4100512
July 13th, 2007 at 10:12 am
They’re not taking back zero, they’re taking back a trade exception. That’s different.
July 13th, 2007 at 10:12 am
Henceforth, I hope that none of y’all don’t wrongly berate me about how I’ve never acquiesced to anybody here. Hell, I’ve just conceded that Brian is right in this case — despite the fact that he was citing the wrong passage to explain his position for the longest time, which partly caused the derisive debating — thus, y’all can chalk this one up as me showing some signs of humility.
July 13th, 2007 at 10:13 am
Henceforth, I hope that none of y’all don’t wrongly berate me about how I’ve never acquiesced to anybody here. Hell, I’ve just conceded that Brian is right in this case — despite the fact that he was citing the wrong passage to explain his position for the longest time, which partly caused the derisive debating — thus, y’all can chalk this one up as me showing some signs of humility.
July 13th, 2007 at 10:13 am
Henceforth, I hope that none of y’all don’t wrongly berate me about how I’ve never acquiesced to anybody here. Hell, I’ve just conceded that Brian is right in this case — despite the fact that he was citing the wrong passage to explain his position for the longest time, which partly caused the derisive debating — thus, y’all can chalk this one up as me showing some signs of humility.
July 13th, 2007 at 10:14 am
You’re bragging about being humble? If you were humble then you wouldn’t be pointing it out.
July 13th, 2007 at 10:17 am
So AK’s jumping off the bandwagon now too? Looks like I’m the only one who will have been right in the end. ;-P
Somebody should email Coon.
July 13th, 2007 at 10:25 am
BW,
I’ve already emailed RealGM about their bugs. I think the takeaway from this is that RealGM is what it is. It’s a nice tool to do simple evaluations quickly and it’s a great way to keep AK busy for hours on end. The problems begin when teams start discussing complicated trades.
However, we can’t really lean on them as an absolute authority in the area of salary caps.
After reading the Coon FAQ, I’ve pretty much arrived at the same conclusion as Brian and others. You are partially correct in that it is true that you cannot add an exception to a player(s) to acquire a single player. However, when multiple players are involved, using players and exceptions is totally legal as long as one or more of the players is able to be absorbed in the cap exception.
Essentially, one team is making 2 simultaneous trades and the other team is making 1 big trade.
This discussion has become the new Barbaro.
July 13th, 2007 at 10:31 am
Okay, Erics, I’m not the most modest guy in the world. It’s not a big deal.
Yeah, Jeremy is right about how Brian, Brice, and him were partially wrong that it couldn’t be one gigantic trade — and, moreover, that Larry Coon’s example was an entirely different set of circumstances.
Yet, if Kurt Thomas was traded to the Seattle Supersonics for the draft rights of Peter Fehse, then the Phoenix Suns will recieve a $8,091,187 trade exception; consequently, the Suns could subsequently deal Leandro Barbosa to the Supersonics for a theoretical package of Mouhamed Sene, Johan Petro, Delonte West, and Mickael Gelabale.
Okay, that makes sense.
July 13th, 2007 at 10:35 am
Exemption explanation… again…
People here just don’t get it. A few day ago I post the NBA’s player association website, which has the entire collective bargaining agreement on it. Did anyone both to read this?
http://www.nbpa.com/cba_articles.php
http://www.nbpa.com/cba_articles/article-VII.php
Article 7 of the CBA has everything you could ever want to know about salaries, trades, trade rules, exemptions, etc. Please read this before asking lame questions.
To answer an earlier question. The Suns would not receive an exemption for sending Thomas to the Sonics, unless the Sonics could afford to take on Thomas’ entire salary for the 07-08 season. If they could, then the sonics could send an exemption in return for Thomas. By the way there have been past trades made were teams traded players/draft picks for exemptions (generally mid-level exemptions).
In section h, sub-section ii there is the following statement:
“(ii) If a Team’s trade of a player and acquisition of one (1) or more Replacement Players do not occur simultaneously, then the post-assignment Salary or aggregate Salaries of the Replacement Player(s) for the Salary Cap Year in which the Replacement Player(s) are acquired may not exceed 100% of the pre-trade Salary (or Base Year Compensation, if applicable) of the Traded Player at the time the Traded Player’s Contract was traded, plus $100,000.”
The reason the sonics got a trade exemption is the replace the player they lost. Because Lewis’ salary last season was around 9.3 million dollars the Sonics got roughly that plus $100,000. In the “what if the Sonics got Kurt Thomas?” scenario Phoenix would not qualify for this because the Sonics cannot take on Thomas salary without having to send back contracts that get within the +/- 25% rule.
I hope this helps everyone.
July 13th, 2007 at 10:39 am
I’m not too keen on sending Gelebale and West for Barbosa, if we’re gonna give up 2 guards (Gelly CAN play the 2) then we better get back someone better than barbosa. these guys are 2 guys we should be holding onto for dear life, especailly if we are hoping for a positiong by commitee (ala 3 headed center a year ago): Rid/Earl/West = PG
July 13th, 2007 at 10:40 am
Here’s a FAQ from the nbpa about the use of trade exceptions:
http://members.cox.net/lmcoon/salarycap.htm#20
There may be more answers from reading this.
July 13th, 2007 at 10:42 am
From the NBPA link I just posted:
http://members.cox.net/lmcoon/salarycap.htm#20
“So it is not true that being under the cap necessarily means a team has room to sign free agents. For example, assume the cap is $49.5 million, and a team has $43 million committed to salaries. They also have a Mid-Level exception for $5 million and a Traded Player exception for $5.5 million. Even though their salaries put them $6.5 million under the cap, their exceptions are added to their salaries, putting them at $53.5 million, or $4 million over the cap. So they actually have no cap room to sign free agents, and must instead use their exceptions.
Teams have the option of renouncing their exceptions in order to claim the cap room. So in the example above, if the team renounced their Traded Player and Mid-Level exceptions, then the $10.5 million is taken off their team salary, which then totals $43 million, leaving them with $6.5 million of cap room which can then be used to sign free agent(s).”
July 13th, 2007 at 10:42 am
However, when multiple players are involved, using players and exceptions is totally legal as long as one or more of the players is able to be absorbed in the cap exception.
If this was true, why wouldn’t teams just add non-consequential players in to the deal to make it legit?
For example, you agree that you cannot combine an exception with a player to trade for a player. In other words, you cannot combine a $9M exception and a $6M player to aquire a $14M player. We are all in agreement on that, correct?
Well, if your assertion was true, why wouldn’t the other team just throw in a garbage player making the NBA minimum to make the deal OK? So then we are trading the $9M exception and the $6M player for that same $14M player and a garbage $1M player.
But that doesn’t happen, you know why? Because it’s not allowed. It would make the rule totally pointless. But that is essentially what you guys are trying to do with this Barbosa deal.
I stand by the premise that you cannot combine a player and an exception, for one player OR for mulitple players.
And now there is this new premise that a Traded Player Exception can stay alive after it has been traded. I also believe this to be false. Maybe I’ll email Coon.
July 13th, 2007 at 10:48 am
Yeah, Big_Worm, you should send Larry Coon an e-mail that includes this link and ask him what his thoughts are about this ordeal.
July 13th, 2007 at 10:51 am
Big Worm,
“Well, if your assertion was true, why wouldn’t the other team just throw in a garbage player making the NBA minimum to make the deal OK? So then we are trading the $9M exception and the $6M player for that same $14M player and a garbage $1M player.”
That’s not the point at all. Let’s use Shawn Marion as an example. He makes ~16 mil. The Sonics can’t do exception + anything straight up for Shawn Marion. If they want to acquire Shawn Marion, they have to get within 25% of his salary. However, if the deal was Kurt Thomas and Marion for a player package within 25% of Marion’s deal, then it works because Kurt Thomas CAN be absorbed by the luxury tax.
July 13th, 2007 at 10:52 am
Or someone with a realGM account could post it there and see if there are any useful responses.
July 13th, 2007 at 10:54 am
“I stand by the premise that you cannot combine a player and an exception, for one player OR for mulitple players.”
I think the hold up is in the finer points of the deal. You can combine the player and the exception for a group of players as so much as the individual parts have to work. IE, if you were to deal a 4 million dollar player for a 5 million dollar player and an 8 million dollar player you could do this if you had the exception (in this case 9 million) because you could deal the 4 million dollar player for the 5 and use the exception on the 8 million dollar player. How the fine points of the deal and what’s reported would be two different subjects as no one in the world want’s to try to read CBA mumbo jumbo in the daily newspaper, instead they want to simply know who got dealt and who came back.
“And now there is this new premise that a Traded Player Exception can stay alive after it has been traded.”
Don’t know where that came from, but its incorrect. A new Traded Player Exception would be formed if a deal were to take place because Phoenix in essence would be dealing doing the first part of a non-simultanious trade (while Seattle would be doing the second half of one but I digress) but it would be a completely different exception and Seattle would no longer have it.
July 13th, 2007 at 10:57 am
BW - I’m in a good mood today so I’ll spare you the email to Coon and resolve the issue for you:
Here is the passage you keep quoting ad nauseum:
“Teams cannot combine a Traded Player exception with other exceptions (such as the Mid-Level exception or the 125% plus $100,000 margin from another trade) in order to trade for a more expensive player. For example, a team with a $1 million Traded Player exception cannot combine it with their $2 million player to trade for a $3 million player.”
You are basing your entire argument on this passage. The only thing this passage states is that you can’t combine an exception plus a player to land a more expensive player. You also can’t combine exceptions to land a more expensive player.
The concept revolves around using exceptions in any combination with players or other exceptions to “trade up” and land a more expensive player.
The only thing that matters is that any exception being used does not have a smaller dollar value than the most expensive player being taken back via trade.
$10M exception + $3M player for $9M player and $4M player - Legal
$10M exception + $3M player for $11M player and $2M player - Illegal
You’re welcome…
July 13th, 2007 at 11:05 am
Sonics70 - Glad to hear you’re in a good mood. It is Friday after all.
I disagree with this:
$10M exception + $3M player for $9M player and $4M player - Legal
The reason I disagree is that I believe in order for a trade like this to work it has to be valid as two separate trades:
$10M exception for $9M player = Legal
$3M player for $4M player = Illegal
This is where we disagree.
And here’s the quote I use to support my argument:
Teams can use different exceptions to acquire multiple players in the same trade if those players could also have been acquired individually using those exceptions.
July 13th, 2007 at 11:08 am
BW,
3/4 = .75, which falls within the 25% +100k threshold required.
You absolutely can trade a 3m player for a 4m player.
July 13th, 2007 at 11:12 am
Jeremy, you’re calculating it incorrectly.
$3M x 1.25 + $0.1M = $3.85M
You can’t send out $3M and take $4M back.
July 13th, 2007 at 11:13 am
“You absolutely can trade a 3m player for a 4m player.”
Actually you can’t. Both teams have to satisfy that rule and it only works for one of the two teams. Try Brian Scalibrine for Devin Harris for confirmation (Harris makes 5K short of 4 M.)
July 13th, 2007 at 11:14 am
You’re starting to catch on here and kudos for catching me on the $3M and $4M not working….try this on for size with a very slight tweak:
$10M exception + $3M player for $9.5M player and $3.5M player - Legal
$10M exception + $3M player for $11M player and $2M player - Illegal
July 13th, 2007 at 11:17 am
Oh, I’m starting to catch on? Ha.
Yeah, now your startement is correct. Unfortunately that’s not anything like what this Barbosa proposal is. You’ve expended all that effort only to prove my point. Thanks!
The Barbosa deal doesn’t work without a 3rd party. Sorry folks.
July 13th, 2007 at 11:21 am
Scott,
After the numerous bugs I’ve found in RealGM today, I’m just not putting much stock in their ability to correctly interpret the salary cap.
Sorry, but when I read that a trade has to come within 25%, I know by using basic math that 4/3 is 1.25 and 3/4 is .75. Both would fall within the 25% + 100k range.
July 13th, 2007 at 11:23 am
“I know by using basic math that 4/3 is 1.25 and 3/4 is .75. Both would fall within the 25% + 100k range.”
By my basic math 4/3 = 1.33 but you might be right…..
July 13th, 2007 at 11:25 am
What are the possibilities that the Suns will take Wilkins in the deal instead of Gelabale?
July 13th, 2007 at 11:25 am
You’re right. Never mind.
July 13th, 2007 at 11:25 am
I was told when I started posting here that there would be no math.
July 13th, 2007 at 11:28 am
Menace,
How can you have a halfcourt press, quarter court trap, half time, game divided into quarters, etc without math? That’s even before we start diving into the CBA.
July 13th, 2007 at 11:30 am
The funny think is, aside from all the math, I don’t see why phoenix would trade us barbosa in the first place. I could see them sending us Thomas and a draft pick for the exception, but Barbosa sounds like too much to give up… that would be a real tough sell for their fans. In fact, I don’t even like Barbosa’s game. Really I just want to understand this friggin’ salary cap, lol.
July 13th, 2007 at 11:33 am
I love how BW gets the rug pulled out from under his premise and immediately tries to shift the argument to something else.
Kudos buddy, you’re a piece of work…
In other news, what do you guys think about Carlesimo being a “teacher”? I keep hearing that he is a teacher because he coached college a long time ago. Do you think he can make the transition from working with a bunch of veterans in SA to a serious youth movement here?
July 13th, 2007 at 11:33 am
Suns Fan here…
I stumbled on to this site and have your comments about the Sonics using the newly acquired Trade Exception on Kurt Thomas.
As A Suns Fan, I would welcome a trade sending Thomas to SEA with the Suns 2008 First Round Pick. But to see that Sonics Fans think they can steal Atlanta’s Pick and/or Leandro Barbosa away from Phoenix, is funny. First off, ATL’s Pick is not going any where to to help get KG to PHX and that is a long shot at this point. Second, LB is the best sixth man in the NBA, and to give him up is impossible.
Please, do not get you Sonics Fan hopes up, thinking that you will be getting Thomas, LB, or ATL’s First Round Pick, that easy…
July 13th, 2007 at 11:35 am
ya, im not even getting back into this barbosa mess haha
if the trade were just our 2nd round pick for kurt thomas and their 1st round atlanta pick then that would be jackpot.
we went from letting rashard walk for nothing, to getting a high lottery pick and a veteran big man leader on the bench with an expiring contract
id be very pleased
July 13th, 2007 at 11:37 am
BW,
I don’t think they would either. They really wouldn’t get enough value in return.
That’s why my trade proposal has them sending out Marion + Thomas for some cap relief and Wilcox, Ridnour, Wilkens, and Sene.
However, if that trade goes through, there’s a good chance Brian shuts down SonicsCentral, quits SOS&S out of protest for trading big Mo.
It’s a win win for both teams. Sonics get another great defender and scorer who can D up the other team’s best player, while playing PF on offense. Additionally, it helps contract the roster, addresses the need for a couple veterans (see DK, I’ve got your back), and makes the team better overall.
Phoenix gets some players in Rid and Wilcox that would be ideal for their system. They get some more depth, which has been sorely lacking over the last couple years. By my napkin calculations, Phoenix would be looking at about a 12 Mil savings, plus they would get to keep their potential lotto pick and get to groom Rid as Nash’s eventual replacement.
July 13th, 2007 at 11:40 am
I love how BW gets the rug pulled out from under his premise and immediately tries to shift the argument to something else.
Kudos buddy, you’re a piece of work…
I did nothing of the sort! I owned you in my response to your last post; aparently you are pretending that didn’t happen, because you never replied.
If you care to respond to my last post I’m perfectly happy to carry on with that discussion. I doubt you have a response though.
July 13th, 2007 at 11:45 am
“I was told when I started posting here that there would be no math. ”
LOL I feel you. I’m just as unenthusaistic about the salary cap part of the NBA as you.
You guys go figure out this complicated stuff and let me know if Kurt Thomas will be in Sonics uniform… go team.
July 13th, 2007 at 11:45 am
Big_Worm,
I think you’ve had it right. A Barbosa deal would not happen unless the sonics use their exemption to get him.
Odds are that Phoenix is not going to give Barbosa up considering he’s signed to a reasonable contract through 11-12 season. In fact Phoenix is at 76.4 million in total salary (according to hoopshype.com, which doesn’t include Sean Marks salary). The soft cap is set around 55 or 56 million (maybe less), but he hard cap is 67 million. That means they are roughly 9.4 million over the cap and must pay and additional 9.4 million to the league. It would make more sense for them to find a trading partner that could relieve them of as much of the 9.4 as possible. Hence the Kurt Thomas rumor (since he’s a FA after the season), however I think the Sonics would hold out for Diaw. Though he’s signed at 9 million for the next 5 years, so that might not be what they want either.
July 13th, 2007 at 11:46 am
I’m with Brice.
FROM PHOENIX
PF Kurt Thomas ($8,091,187)
2008 First-Round Draft Pick
2008 First-Round Draft Pick (Via The Atlanta Hawks)
FROM SEATTLE
PF Peter Fehse (Draft Rights)
SG Yotam Halperin (Draft Rights)
PG Paccelis Morlende (Draft Rights)
http://realgm.com/src_checktrade.php?tradeid=4097716
That’d be enough to appease me.
July 13th, 2007 at 11:49 am
With Jeff Green already on this team, McWalter44, there’s absolutely no need for Boris Diaw. In fact, I’d openly question Sam Presti’s decision making skills — which is already in limbo due to the acquisition of Wally Szczerbiak — were he to actively go after Diaw.
July 13th, 2007 at 11:51 am
AK - I’d take that deal… or even this one:
FROM PHOENIX:
PF Kurt Thomas
2008 First-Round Draft Pick (Via The Atlanta Hawks)
FROM SEATTLE:
2008 Second-Round Draft Pick (Via The Orlando Magic)
And hey, these trades actually work! None of that Barbosa nonsense.
July 13th, 2007 at 11:54 am
AK,
Good point. Diaw can play the 5 and Presti likes guys that can play 2 or 3 positions. The question would be can Diaw play D-fense. If the answer is no, then screw it and go for Thomas, if you can a #1 with him. Though I doubt we could get both number #1’s from PHX, because they’d be better server trying to package a longer running contact with the ATL’s #1.
Also, I wouldn’t do anything to help a team like Phoenix out. If we’re going to bail anyone out it better be a team from the Eastern Conference.
July 13th, 2007 at 11:58 am
Diaw is an excellent defender - one of the top five wing defenders in the league. Question always has been about his offense.
July 13th, 2007 at 12:00 pm
Earth to Sonics Fans,
There is no way that SEA is getting ATL’s Pick, PERIOD.
It is less of a chance then PHX getting Kobe.
As a Suns Fan trading ideas with Sonics Fans….
Kurt Thomas and Suns 2008 First Round Pick (NOT ATL’s)
FOR
Trade Exception and the Second Round Pick SEA got from ORL.
NO BARBOSA and NO ATL’s Pick…
July 13th, 2007 at 12:00 pm
In the proposed trade, Sam Presti should demand both the Phoenix Suns’ 2008 first-round draft pick and the Atlanta Hawks’ 2008 first-round draft pick that’s owned by the Suns, since Robert Sarver would be in line to save approximately $16,000,000 — which is ’cause the Suns are currently over the luxury tax — by dumping Kurt Thomas’ large, yet expiring contract on the Seattle Supersonics.
July 13th, 2007 at 12:02 pm
WildByNature - you really don’t think your owner will even consider it?
i mean, this isnt some little crappy nagging contract, this is 16 MILLION dollars that he would be saving if he gave us a 1st round pick
July 13th, 2007 at 12:03 pm
WBN - how exactly does that benefit Seattle again? We give you something extremely valuable and you give us something of little value in return?
Mmmmm…sounds good!
July 13th, 2007 at 12:04 pm
No, Sonics70, Boris Diaw is an undersized power forward who’s a mediocre defender (Opponent Efficiency Rating: +16.6 & Opponents’ Net Points Per 100 Possessions: +2.5). Furthermore, Shawn Marion is a baseline defender and Raja Bell is a wing defender for the Phoenix Suns; thus, I don’t get where you come across thinking Diaw guards wing players on a regular basis.
All things considered, Diaw had a career year in 2005-2006 and, without a doubt, regressed back to his normal performace level last season.
July 13th, 2007 at 12:04 pm
The Sun’s #1 pick is essentially worthless to us. If it’s not going to be Atlanta’s pick then no deal.
July 13th, 2007 at 12:06 pm
Brice-
I know Sarver would probably consider it, but Kerr would not. Kerr is the GM and would explain to Sarver that ATL’s pick is to valuable to send in a deal like those proposed on this site.
July 13th, 2007 at 12:07 pm
Throwing some names out there of FAs I would like the Sonics to consider:
Travis Diener
Matt Barnes
Pietrus
I’d have to think that Diener could be a bargain basement deal.
July 13th, 2007 at 12:08 pm
WildbyNature
Presti should take no less than both 1st rounders for Thomas. Thomas does not help the Sonics in any meaningful sense. He is getting old, seems to be injury prone, and the Sonics are going nowhere in the next few years. If the Suns are not willing to part with both 1st rounders, I suspect Presti can go elsewhere.
July 13th, 2007 at 12:10 pm
Wild by Nature,
I know the ATL pick is important to you Suns fans (I live in AZ, and my cousin is a die hard Suns fan), but this isn’t so much a player for player trade by the Suns.
The Suns are trying to reduce their payroll, and in essence are dumping Kurt Thomas to the Sonics since we have the trade exception. However, to do this, they have to entice the Sonics with something worth taking additionally, so that we’ll also take Thomas’s contract.
To do this, a low first round pick isn’t going to help us much, since we’re re-building. We will want that high pick.
That’s the perspective that we sonic’s fans see it from.
Essentially, the Sonics save the Suns 16 million dollars, so the Suns have to give us something to sweeten the deal. That’s why the lower pick shouldn’t satiate our desire for the ATL pick.
July 13th, 2007 at 12:10 pm
Earth to WildByNature:
No way you should even be thinking of landing KG or Kobe. You guys are trying to unload to avoid luxury tax as it stands, and especially if you aren’t willing to part with anything of value (ie ATL’s pick or Barbosa). I like your team and have rooted for them in consecutive years, but honestly you can’t have your cake and eat it too…. for free!
July 13th, 2007 at 12:11 pm
While I wholeheartedly agree that Steve Kerr should keep Leandro Barbosa off-limits in a trade that yields nothing but luxury tax relief and a traded player exception, Sam Presti should demand both 2008 first-round draft picks — along with Kurt Thomas, of course — from the Phoenix Suns or just altogether scrap the deal.
July 13th, 2007 at 12:11 pm
Then Sarver reminds Kerr of who signs his paycheck and then - presto - he gets his way!
July 13th, 2007 at 12:14 pm
You know what actually makes a lot of sense to me.
Marion to Milwaukee for the draft rights to Yi.
That clears the cap space issue and Phoenix gets the big unknown.
July 13th, 2007 at 12:19 pm
is milwauke so far under the cap that they can absorb marions massive contract?
July 13th, 2007 at 12:20 pm
I agree with Jeremy in LA…
Well if the Suns do trade KT and both first round picks for a trade exception… Phoenix is going to be in a uproar…
Thanks for the time guys, g2g
July 13th, 2007 at 12:25 pm
Hey Brian - how about a new thread? This one is starting to drag a bit with all the posts from AK…
July 13th, 2007 at 12:37 pm
Two threads a day are needed now, dang!!!
I remember when each thread was getting 10-15 hits a year or so back. Those were the days…Less annoying infighting back then too…
July 13th, 2007 at 1:11 pm
AK, after looking at the volume and frequency of your posts, I am beyond questioning your sanity.
July 13th, 2007 at 1:13 pm
HEAR, HEAR
July 13th, 2007 at 1:29 pm
I really doubt the Suns are as concerned about the tax hit as many of you are saying here, otherwise they wouldn’t have signed Grant Hill. That was a $3.6M tax hit right there.
If the Suns could sucker the Sonics into taking Thomas outright or for their draft slot, they’d probably jump on it, but I don’t think they’d give up anymore than that. They’ll hold onto the ATL pick, imo.
Also, i’ve read that Kerr is interested in slowing down the pace a little and bringing in some tougher players. Thomas fits the bill unlike many other Suns players.
July 13th, 2007 at 1:50 pm
Sonics roster is full already, adding thomas without sending players out would be stupid even for Atl #1. Getting Barbosa is the only reason to even think about it. I’m not sure it could be done or Phx would want to.
July 13th, 2007 at 1:53 pm
Yi Jianlian is not going to be a star, Please don’t trade for him, way overrated.
July 13th, 2007 at 2:20 pm
OK, I’m halfway through this trade, I have a headache, and I’m chiefly hoping the deal goes down exactly as Brian suggested, for two reasons: 1) I think it will help us win games next season, and 2) if the NBA actually approves the deal, it will prove AK wrong.
July 13th, 2007 at 2:21 pm
Err . . . “this thread” . . .
July 13th, 2007 at 2:33 pm
I agree with Brian that picking up Thomas would take the prssure off Swift and whoever else we expect to fill minutes at center. Anything to keep Collison and Wilcox from playing too much there. 10-15 minutes a night max for either. Thomas is a good option considering he is aging and he comes off the books next year which in essence gives us the trade exception money to play with next year in salry cap space.
Or am I drasitcally missing something in the Richard Cho book of trades circumstances.
He really should publish an ‘NBA Trades for Idiots’ vol.1.
July 13th, 2007 at 2:35 pm
Each thread would be 10-15….but then it’d get the “TK Spam Stat Attack.” 25 consecutive posts from TK each with a more obscure way to slice and dice the latest Sonic loss…
July 13th, 2007 at 2:36 pm
“He really should publish an ‘NBA Trades for Idiots’ vol.1. ”
I’ve seen that book. It’s a printout of all the transactions Isiah Thomas has made over the last 5 years.
July 13th, 2007 at 2:50 pm
Thomas to Pistons
Hamilton to Sonics
exception to Suns
July 13th, 2007 at 2:52 pm
you don’t “Trade” the exception, its something you have
it let’s you bypass the 125% rule in a trade up to the amount that the exception is worth
in your situation thomas would have to come to seattle first, then we would have to wait 60 days to send him to detroit
July 13th, 2007 at 3:16 pm
Don’t get it twisted, I looove the fact that there’s 350 posts per thread, Seattle Sonic luv baby!!!!
July 13th, 2007 at 3:37 pm
Isnt 350 posts per thread somehow petition worthy? The lawmakers should at least be aware of such interest, shouldnt they?
July 13th, 2007 at 6:32 pm
BW States:
Well, if your assertion was true, why wouldn’t the other team just throw in a garbage player making the NBA minimum to make the deal OK? So then we are trading the $9M exception and the $6M player for that same $14M player and a garbage $1M player.
But that doesn’t happen, you know why? Because it’s not allowed. It would make the rule totally pointless. But that is essentially what you guys are trying to do with this Barbosa deal.
It does happen all the time. Teams make trades much bigger to absorb contracts that are problematic. Here’s a quote from Marc Cubans blog:
6th. If a player is part of a sign and trade, and that player receives more than a 20pct increase in salary, that player is considered a base year player. When a player is considered a base year player, the team can only take back salaries equal to 1/2 of the current year salary of the base year traded, or 120pct of the previous year salary (whichever is higher)* if that player is traded to a team at or over the cap. If the player is traded to a team under the cap, base year does not apply.
The reason for this rule is to prevent teams with a players bird rights (the ability to pay a player any amount up to the max) from offering a player an inflated deal with only 1 year guaranteed in order to get a higher priced player from a team that may be trying to dump salary.
So for instance, if we wanted to do a sign and trade with a player whose salary jumped from 4mm to 8mm dollars, we would only be credited for 4.8mm in salary for that player in the trade. We would then add the 15pct plus 100k to the 4.8mm, meaning we would be able to take back a player making $5.62mm. This would make it impossible to do a 1 player for 1 player deal. We would have to make the deal bigger or bring in more teams in order to make the deal work.
Making up the base year trade penalty is why you see trades get very big when there is a player included who is receiving a big raise.
Here’s an example:
http://www.canoe.ca/BasketballArchive/jul30_edd.html
Look up the final trade that send Eddie Jones out. He was BYC going from a salary of like $2million to almost max money. They made the trade bigger so that the total of all salaries involved in it was enough to offset the BYC status. No other team was involved, they just made the deal bigger. In the end they included 9 players to make the deal work.
http://www.cbc.ca/sports/story/2000/07/31/jones000731.html
July 13th, 2007 at 7:52 pm
Basically, none of you are right
July 13th, 2007 at 11:41 pm
do NOT give up gelabale. replace him with szczerbiak or whatever. i really like mickael.
July 14th, 2007 at 2:59 am
Arent the suns in love with barbosa? They wouldnt ship him in order to dump KT would they?
July 14th, 2007 at 7:18 am
I found a juicy rumor from the future:
Because the Clippers are rebuilding around Al Thorton, Presti is close to acquiring Elton Brand.
July 14th, 2007 at 9:55 am
Arent the suns in love with barbosa? They wouldnt ship him in order to dump KT would they?
Yes and no.
July 14th, 2007 at 12:43 pm
“Because the Clippers are rebuilding around Al Thorton, Presti is close to acquiring Elton Brand.”
I was thinking that Brand was a guy we should look at. A freind of mine in SoCal and I were talking abouth him as a possibility and he said the price would for sure be steep. We have either Luke or Earl, Collison, Petro, Wilkins and draft picks and they are for sure looking for PG. I’m thinking we may be able to get him with Luke/Colison and next years #1.
July 14th, 2007 at 1:04 pm
no way in hell do i even consider giving up next year’s #1 unless we are getting deron williams or chris paul in return
July 14th, 2007 at 1:05 pm
#1 = first round pick
July 14th, 2007 at 9:16 pm
At some point in time, I expect Ridnour or Watson will be traded.
Could Ridnour be packaged with a 2nd round pick for a future first?
The Clippers and Heat are in desperate need of a point guard…
1. Ridnour and a 2nd for Clip’s 08 1st round pick?
2a. Ridnour, Petro and a lottery protected 1st for Brand?
2b. then trade Wilcox and Wilkens for Navarro and Blatche.
3. Watson for Miami’s 2nd round pick?
July 15th, 2007 at 1:18 am
I see a lot of people wanting to get rid of Ridnour…I really believe we should keep Ridnour or wait until the trade deadline to see his progress…Now that Allen & Lewis is gone, he is our team captain…From what i read here, he defer to Allen that was causing him to be hesitant…Now he can let loose & show more of his game…One of the last pure PG in the nba…
July 15th, 2007 at 2:46 am
None of those work under the cap Phenom.
July 15th, 2007 at 6:12 pm
Dear Ryan C…..
Since when do you find lack of defense in a “pure point guard”?
April 17th, 2008 at 12:50 am
Kyle
I could not believe the amount of quality material on this site. The site is extremely eyecatching and pulls the reader straight it, the articles are great quality and are very professionally written. I have seen too many of these sites where it looks…