18 points scored by guys not named Durant or Green
Posted on Monday, July 16th, 2007 at 4:20 am by Brian Robinson
That statistic really tells you all you need to know.
The Sonics finished out Summer League last night with an 0 for 5 record. What does that record really mean?
Not much.
Give the blame to guys who are completely irrelevant like Zabian Dowdell and Jermain Jackson who simply did not provide any guard play to speak of. Send a little more towards now 3 year veteran Johan Petro who should have been expected to showcase his experience at this camp. However remember that Petro’s irrelevant also and you don’t have to worry to much about the guys who will be the future of this franchise.
For the second consecutive game Kevin Durant showed why a huge part of his game is going to take place at the free throw line. The rangy, 6′10 player gets his shots off so quick, and will see so many of them that he practically lives at the foul line, going 11 for 13. In his career he may wind up with a FG% below .500 but there will be a lot of nights like tonight when he manages to go 8 for 19 from the field (42%) but still scores 28 points on those 19 attempts.
I am starting to come to the conclusion that Durant will play SG for the Sonics this season. Members of the staff have indicated that to me and if you look at his frame in extended minutes I am not even certain he is ready to play the 3(SG), let alone the 4(PF). It seems possible that he could begin his career on the wing, and transition straight over to the PF slot while Jeff Green anchors the SF position.
Speaking of Green…
What’s not to like about Green’s 32 point, 13 reb game?
Maybe the 5 turnovers were not so good…
Summer league stats do not mean much and even tonights 60 point combination was about as meaningful as the final score. Still I think Sonics fans should be extremely encouraged by the versatility Green showed. His buckets came from every part of the court. He handled the ball to create offense, took spot up jump shots, and cleaned up the glass for putbacks. The diversity of his skillset was not only impressive, it was entertaining. Green showed signs of why he could soon become a fan favorite and provide reason to watch games in a season when wins may be tough to come by. Here’s the story on Green. He’s a lot like former Sonic Desmond Mason except he has a jump shot, and a handle, and happens to be 4 inches taller. We all liked Mason right?
All in all a fun night for Sonics fans despite the loss. I certainly hope that the team keeps track of how much interest has been generated by broadcasting these summer league games. They will now move on to Salt Lake City for another 3 games in the Rocky Mountain Review, none of which will be televised. My hope is that they bring in a PG(Could we see Delonte West there?) and try to combine the Green/Durant scoring combo with some wins. That would build excitement moving forward.
Props to Gary Payton for being on the broadcast yesterday. GP has made it known in basketball circles that he would love to finish out his career with the SuperSonics and you could count me in as a supporter of that idea. While fans may remember a surley Payton who would resist any role as a backup or mentor it seems clear from the Glove’s tenure in Miami as well as his comments last night that he has matured to the point where he should not be judged by his early years. A reunion between him and the Sonics, whatever the role would be a win, win, win as the team would benefit from marketing the franshise’ most beloved player, Gary could go out on his own terms, and Kevin Durant would get the mentorship he expected from Ray Allen without having the ball taken out of his hands.
Lets do it.
July 16th, 2007 at 5:15 am
I don’t think the fans will regret the drafting of Green. He really reminds me of Sean Elliott. If he can have that kind of success the Sonics will really benefit. He’s a team first kind of guy who’d be able to play for anyone. Durant’s game should benefit from having another passer like Jeff on the floor who’s also capable of taking some of the offensive pressure off of him.
July 16th, 2007 at 6:46 am
what age is GP? somewhere around 40?
last year i would’ve loved to welcome GP back but i have some doubt as to how much gas payton has left in his tank…
July 16th, 2007 at 7:08 am
Jeff Green can do sooo much, he is so valuable and I didn’t realize why the Sonics had to draft him so high until I saw him up close in summer league. This is the type of player that helps you win a lot of games because of insane efficiency.
I agree with the assessment that Durant makes sense at the 2. This will cut his rebound numbers in half but puts him in a better position to contribute defensively and take advantage of mismatches offensively. He will still have plenty of opportunities to slash to the basket as well.
I think that in a couple of years Durant will be able to move to the 3 which will improve his FG% and rebound numbers, making him a bigger contributor overall. The time frame really depends on his physical development though. By that time Green may be able to play the 4. Otherwise though I could see Green being a sixth man, which isn’t necessarily a waste of a high pick.. why?
Green can play around 30 minutes a game as a multi-dimensional backup, with Durant starting at SF. The team could make a guard substitution by moving Durant t the 2 and Green to the 3. Green could substitute Durant at the 3 also. Or Green could substitute for the 4. So green is really backing up 3 positions, and starting if any of these three positions (2,3,4) has an injury. He could average 35 minutes a game this way (10-12 at each position).
So I suppose the team is looking like:
Ridnour/Watson
Durant/West
Green/Gelabale
Collison/Wilcox
Swift/Petro
And you have:
Wally/Wilkins
for additional depth.
Anyhow, I think it is very important for them to go with the rotation that they plan to stick with. The new regime is not personally committed to a lot of these players so I would expect a lot of them to be gone in the next couple years. If they plan to trade Ridnour, which was a big rumor during the draft, then don’t waste minutes on him now. I would suspect that between the very closely matched Watson and Ridnour they will go the Watson road because of his defense and how important that is to the new brass.
But how far should they go? Can the team bench veteran talent to build the teams future? How many wins this year would be too few? 35? 25? Another top pick next year wouldn’t hurt, OJ Mayo anyone?
July 16th, 2007 at 7:21 am
The record in Vegas is not big deal, the exciting thing is seeing Durant and Green improve. You want them comfortable going into training camp so that they are ready for the regular season. If you look at it, the Summer League is serving it purpose. You always want to win, but that is not the number one focus of these games. As for Ray1984 comment on Payton, I think the thing to remember is if he comes and playes for a year, just having his presents is a boost for this young team. I don’t think his production would matter although I think he has more left than what people think!!
July 16th, 2007 at 7:23 am
BRING IN DA GLOVE!!! Would love to see it for sentimental reasons, and while his speed leaves something to be desired, GP can still hold his own for stretches against bigger, smarter PGs like Casell and JKidd etc. Great to see that Green and Durant found the scoring foothold in time for the last game, it’ll be interesting to see how the confidence from these games transfer over throughout the season. I’m hoping Durant gets consistent calls going his way (ala DWade), but I’m scepticle that a rookie will get as many calls as he deserves, does anyone else think he’ll be in for a rough ride this first year? I just hope he keeps up the intensity and solid play. I revoke my previous misconceptions about Durant, he can play the 2 and maybe one after some bulking up the 3 as well.
July 16th, 2007 at 7:56 am
During the draft, Durant stopped at a tv and saw Allen had been traded for the 5th pick, which was to be used on Jeff Green. Durant immediately smiled and said, “that’s my teammate.” They grew up playing ball together, obviously are friends and quality young-men. I expect their union to facilitate a stronger desire for Durant to stay in Seattle over the long-term.
July 16th, 2007 at 7:58 am
Did anybody else see Sene get tea-bagged?
July 16th, 2007 at 8:01 am
Durant > Allen + Lewis
Green > Lewis
West > Ridnour; West > Watson
Sheffler > Petro + Sene
July 16th, 2007 at 8:06 am
Durant and Green looked great last night. Their games compliment each other well.
Add a PG who can run things (Ridnour), and a big man who can play D and block some shots (Swift), and the Supes should surprse some people next year.
July 16th, 2007 at 8:12 am
Over/under of whether Steve Kelley, Art Thiel or Jim Moore write and article about how going 0-4 in summer league means either (a) the Sonics are leaving town, (b) the Ray Allen trade was a bust or (c) Seattle is not a ‘basketball town’?
July 16th, 2007 at 8:20 am
Man did I love watching Jeff Green this mourning.
I really like those guys that do a little bit of everthing and play defense and Green just looks like the poster child of those kind of players.
I’d also like GP back for another season and maybe that’s what he, Carlesimo and Bennett where talking about a couple of days ago, when they sat next to each other in Vegas(at least i’ve read that here that they talked to each other). It would be a great move PR wise and it would also help out our younger guys, cause Gary has seen everything this league has to offer.
July 16th, 2007 at 8:30 am
Bring Payton back…!!!
July 16th, 2007 at 8:41 am
Now that we’ve lost both of our captains, who is going to take over the role? Durant probably, but will there be one or two captains this year?
July 16th, 2007 at 8:59 am
“Now that we’ve lost both of our captains, who is going to take over the role? Durant probably, but will there be one or two captains this year?”
I’m going to take a wild guess and say Ridnour and Collison will be captians, with Durant and Green taking over in the next couple years.
July 16th, 2007 at 8:59 am
“Durant probably, but will there be one or two captains this year?”
Probably Luke and Nick
July 16th, 2007 at 9:08 am
It’d be nice for the Sonics to bring in a good vet to fill that role
July 16th, 2007 at 9:19 am
If they can sign GP i think will satisfy a lot of the casual sonics fan heal from Lewis/Allen departing…Also will make Bennet look good for once…Will also fill the void of a good veteran leader which Sonics are lacking…
I forgot all about the game, anybody have this on video?
July 16th, 2007 at 9:20 am
With Luke and Nick, neither may be starters this year, which is an odd roll for captains. They are, if I remember correctly, the sonics that have been here the longest.
July 16th, 2007 at 9:32 am
Yes on bringing GP back!
July 16th, 2007 at 9:51 am
GP would be a great pickup…But it would workout best if Luke or Watson was traded. They could give Luke or Watson 35 min and throw Gp 10-15. You don’t really want to sign GP and never play him. It would be a smart move and certainly help them sell some tickets this year, it would also be a nice gesture to the fans in Seattle.
July 16th, 2007 at 9:51 am
Jeff Green reminds me a little of Derrick McKey, except is a little more aggressive and demonstrative, a little more quick and explosive, and not quite as long. He’s got the same kind of versatility and defensive ability and could play the same kind of role. I didn’t realize it before but Green is a really good athlete with great hops.
KC made an interesting comparison of Durant to George ‘The Iceman’ Gervin. I too thought of this - Gervin was a skinny 6-7 shooting guard and scoring machine. A couple of differences though - Durant will undoubtedly be a more prolific long-range shooter, and he’s 3 inches taller.
Whenever I try thinking up Durant player comparisons he’s always ‘kind of like’ other players, but bigger, or quicker, or a better shooter. He’s ‘kind of like’ Nowitski but quicker and with a better handle. He’s ‘kind of like’ Dr. J. but taller and a better shooter. He really is revolutionary.
July 16th, 2007 at 10:02 am
everytime i watch green play, i feel like im watching Lamar Odom
he seems like a guy who can do it all and put up 17/10/5 once this team gets clicking
July 16th, 2007 at 10:28 am
Sene should get fined $100 each time he leaves his feet to block a shot. Also, can someone please tell him he is allowed to slide his feet on defense?
I am not sure whether Sene is entirely at fault for his overzealous help defense. I mean, guards were penetrating at will. His teamates need to rotate to cover him. He did a reasonable job on the pick and roll.
2 years ago Petro and Swift were probably about the same size. Now, Swift is far bigger. This makes me wonder about Petro’s desire to mix it up on the block. He just seems to shy away from contact. Even Sene appears to have gained some upper body muscle.
July 16th, 2007 at 10:50 am
I predict GP will sign a 1-year deal with the Sonics. As has been mentioned several times he shares the same agent with Durant and unless they were talking with the team he probably wouldn’t be up here. Either Watson or Ridnour will be traded.
It’s a good fit. Right now the team needs GP’s experience, floor leadership and relationship with the casual Seattle fans. For vet minimum he’s a great signing.
July 16th, 2007 at 10:54 am
Durant is a Gervin / Rasheed Wallace hybrid.
July 16th, 2007 at 10:55 am
I can’t figure out if I’m more dissappointed in Sene or Petro. I would have thought that this being his 3rd year in the L, with gametime experience, Petro would use summer league to work on his weaknesses. He still doesn’t box out and he settles for jumpers. He plays with no fire at all.
Sene continues to prove to all that he is the rawest player in the NBA. Its sad when your strength is shot blocking…..and you aren’t very good at it. Calabro said it himself……Sene is a “specialized WEAKSIDE shot blocker”. Ouch.
July 16th, 2007 at 10:59 am
RE: Durant
“but still scores 28 points on those 19 attempts. ”
Awesome point….That is called efficiency. Which is exactly what Ray said he needed to be for the Sonics to move forward. If KD gets to the line he will be more efficient than the great Ray Allen.
July 16th, 2007 at 11:02 am
“But how far should they go? Can the team bench veteran talent to build the teams future? How many wins this year would be too few? 35? 25? Another top pick next year wouldn’t hurt, OJ Mayo anyone? ”
Please lets not get sucked into the Dany Ainge mentality of losing games to gain lottery status. Presti just showed you the best way to attain top draft picks. And that would be a trade. While we were extremely lucky to get #2 this year it looks like the smartest move was moving Ray for Green, West and Wally. Winning at the lottery and picking KD didnt take much if any brains at all. Getting bthe 5 pick took some skill though. I would say never rely on luck and losing for anything. Presti will focus on winning not next years lottery pick. We don’t live on I-95.
July 16th, 2007 at 11:02 am
Petro and Sene are going to be worth about 10 fouls a game, but that’s about it.
Lots of pressure on the ginger kid this year…
July 16th, 2007 at 11:03 am
Signing Payton would be a strong gesture to Seattle fans and I don’t see Bennett making it. Having Payton tutoring the youngsters on defense could be powerful and I bet he comes cheap.
July 16th, 2007 at 11:05 am
This morning Alonzo Mourning said GP will not return to the Heat (found it on hoopshype).
I’ll be ecstatic if GP comes back, but right now, we dont have minutes for him.
We have to trade at least one of our guards (Earl looks like the odd man out).
Robert Swift looks crazy menancing, is that kid on Roid?? What happened to that innocent 18 year old kid with that goofy @ss hair cut..
I can’t wait to see him bullying peeps out there. ANyone dare to put hard fouls on our boys, Swift will bring out his chainsaw from underneath the bench and regulate. yeah.. Swift is looking THAT CRAZY to me right now LOL.
I think Collison will start at center however, Swift has not played any basketball for almost a year now. (I mean, I get rusty after not playing ball for two weeks..). I don’t expect him to be a force right off the bat.
July 16th, 2007 at 11:14 am
“I think Collison will start at center however, Swift has not played any basketball for almost a year now. (I mean, I get rusty after not playing ball for two weeks..). I don’t expect him to be a force right off the bat.”
I’d love to see Collison eventually playing at the 4 with Swift, though.
July 16th, 2007 at 11:15 am
I agree with the other posters about GP. He has no value to the team UNLESS Rid or Watson is traded. If that happens, (and I hope they trade Watson), GP could be a wonderful pickup and I would welcome him as our 2nd PG (even though at this stage of his career, he is probably not much better of a player than a 3rd PG). Still, he is GP and that carries a lot of weight in Seattle. There is obviously something sentimental inside GP with regards to the Sonics. All those years of being a Seattle icon are probably very dear to the glove down deep. You don’t hear about him being interested in any other of his former teams for a last season, only Seattle. For that reason I would have to believe that he wants to go out on top, sort of as Seattle’s basketball ambassador. He has his ring; he doesn’t want to play 35 min. a game I imagine; just give him 7 minutes in the first half and 7 in the second, and possibly some situational defensive assignments if he’s still capable and let him work with the guy that he was essentially traded for (the first from the Ray Allen trade became Luke). All of this is predicated on Watson being traded imo.
July 16th, 2007 at 11:21 am
Seems like Bennet is cutting ties with most people who had a connection to the Sonics of old (Locke/Ray/Lenny). I guess he could crush that theory by bringing back GP. All for that.
I’d even bring back Kemp. I guarantee he could step in and be one of the best post players on this team. He’s been playing at Greenlake lately.
I have to think Collison is the starter at C too. Swift hasn’t played/proven he is the starter. Just because he is a 7 footer and we expected improvement last year……doesn’t mean he automatically gets the knod.
July 16th, 2007 at 11:25 am
Swift (Collison) Sene
Collison Wilcox Petro
Green Wally Scz Wilkins
Durant West Gelabale
Ridnour Watson
July 16th, 2007 at 11:29 am
Here’s the link wit me: Zo says GP isn’t coming back to the Heat.
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/APWires/sports/D8QDD3UG1.html
July 16th, 2007 at 11:42 am
sign GP to a bi-annual exception like the suns did with hill
trade watson for a bag of doritos
lets get this season started!
July 16th, 2007 at 11:44 am
“Seems like Bennet is cutting ties with most people who had a connection to the Sonics of old (Locke/Ray/Lenny). I guess he could crush that theory by bringing back GP. All for that.”
He brought back Lenny I don’t see why if Presti thought it was worthwhile that he’d bring back GP as well.
At this point GP’s your fourth PG and third string SG and even if they dealt Watson he wouldn’t be your backup PG anyways, that’s the most handsomest man in the world. What does is offer insurance in case of an injury somewhere, he’s better than Randy Livingston.
I love how people seem to have Locke tied in with this group of old Sonics, the guy was with them for one year.
July 16th, 2007 at 11:50 am
This is the lineup I want:
West/Ridnour/Watson
Durant/Gelabale
Green/Wally/Wilkens
Wilcox/Petro
Collison/Swift
*Sene (NBDL)
Why are people automatically putting Swift in at the C position? He can’t even do contact drills at this point. He hasn’t played in a year, and when he did he averaged 6 and 6. So Wilcox or Collison take a seat so the unproven 7 footer, coming off inury. can step in immediately? Why?
July 16th, 2007 at 11:53 am
Kemp, that is a joke right? He retired four years ago. I’ll bet he is smoking a lot of pot at greenlake too.
Swift hasn’t played in a year, but I wouldn’t assume drastic consequences. Keep in mind:
1) The most difficult thing to get good at after missing a lot of practice is shooting, Defense never really goes away.
2) The season doesn’t start tomorrow, there is a long offseason for Swift to get in the groove.
3) Typically when you don’t play you are out of shape but this kid looks like a monster.
Seattle is a great place to live and I am not surprised GP wants to retire here. Of course, since his skills are entirely confined to basketball, his only chance of making any more money involves getting in with the sonics organization. I hope that he will return and be a vocal supporter of keeping the team in Seattle. GP has always been vocal on the court, hopefully he can open his mouth for the good of the community.
July 16th, 2007 at 11:55 am
Seafan posted this lineup:
Swift (Collison) Sene
Collison Wilcox Petro
Green Wally Scz Wilkins
Durant West Gelabale
Ridnour Watson
If Presti enters the regular season with that lineup he is playing with fire. Just seeing Petro and Sene in the same group as KD and Green is horrifying. Whatever the rookies bring would easily be offset by the ‘Duo of Doom.’
July 16th, 2007 at 12:00 pm
“Kemp, that is a joke right? He retired four years ago. I’ll bet he is smoking a lot of pot at greenlake too.”
Hate to rain on your parade but Payton smokes/smoked too. Too Short and E-40 rap about it. Yes to Payton…..No to Kemp? Doesn’t seem fair.
Half joking yes. But Kemp is arguably the most popular Sonic of All Time. Would it really be a bad PR move? And if you’ve seen him lately, he is in good shape and can still play. Even at his age he’d crush Sene/Petro.
July 16th, 2007 at 12:08 pm
Something tells me that Kemp’s reputation doesnt fit Presti’s culture…GP maybe, but I dont see it.
July 16th, 2007 at 12:11 pm
“If that happens, (and I hope they trade Watson), GP could be a wonderful pickup and I would welcome him as our 2nd PG (even though at this stage of his career, he is probably not much better of a player than a 3rd PG).”
Payton would be our 3rd point guard, with West getting quite some minutes there as well.
So unless Gary is alright with being the teacher for the kids and about 10 min per game, he shouldn’t come back to the Sonics. Though, i believe that he’s meatured quite a bit and that he would accept a role like that.
“Why are people automatically putting Swift in at the C position? He can’t even do contact drills at this point. He hasn’t played in a year, and when he did he averaged 6 and 6. So Wilcox or Collison take a seat so the unproven 7 footer, coming off inury. can step in immediately? Why?”
Because he’s the only real center with some promise on our roster?
Nobody says that he’ll play 30 + minutes from the start, but he should be in our starting lineup, cause I think that Collison is best suited being the back up to both the 4 and 5 spots.
We should also keep in mind that back to back games are probably not possible for Robert at the start of the season(Nene also didn’t play them for the Nuggets at the start of last season) and that Nick and Chris will get a lot of minutes next season, no matter what.
Though, with Swift still being kind of a qustion mark and Petro and Sene looking like NBDL guys it’s important for us to add another big body who can play the 4 and 5.
July 16th, 2007 at 12:11 pm
“Half joking yes. But Kemp is arguably the most popular Sonic of All Time. Would it really be a bad PR move? And if you’ve seen him lately, he is in good shape and can still play. Even at his age he’d crush Sene/Petro. ”
Payton can still contribute in a 15-20 mpg role. Kemp, doubtful. He’s been trying to make a comeback for years, but from what I’ve heard can’t pass a pee test.
July 16th, 2007 at 12:12 pm
Re: the Bennett thing. Lenny Wilkens getting bumped out was his own fault. His boss realized very quickly that Lenny wasn’t on the same page in regards to simple things, like prematurely announcing that he had been hired.
It seemed to me based on what I read is that Wilkens decided to make a political power play within the organization. Needless to say, his actions and his inactions caused Bennett to rethink his initial decision. Honestly, as great as Wilkens was back in the day, he’s no longer an asset. Look at the hack job he did in Toronto.
I’m not as sold as some of you are that Clay Bennett is the male Rachel Phelps. Bringing back GP would be a good move for a team that needs a defensive focus and veteran leadership.
Let him have his 10-15 minutes per night, be a positive influence on Durant and Green and then let him move into the front office next year.
July 16th, 2007 at 12:14 pm
Lets bring Payton in and work a deal (any deal) where Watson leaves for some draft picks. I guess there’s always possibilites of a Watson/Wilcox trade for a semi-star, or at least Watson/Sene for some filler somewhere. Ridnour running the offense with GP in the mix when we need defensive stops would make for a good 2 headed PG. Slide Durant into the 2, Green at 3, Wilcox and collison until Swift is ready, then make it collison Swift and there is a starting lineup you could set your watch to! Make it happen Presti!
July 16th, 2007 at 12:16 pm
RE: Swift starting
“Because he’s the only real center with some promise on our roster?”
I would agree that he is our only promising young center…..but if you look at his competition that isn’t saying much. I’d hope that eventually he becomes our starter……but at this point he isn’t better than Collison or Wilcox and he is coming off injury. I think we need to wait until he proves something before we assume he takes one of their spots.
July 16th, 2007 at 12:31 pm
let’s just try our best with what we have and go big next year. With a top 10 pick in a PG/SG heavy draft and a big FA signing in a solid market next year, the Sonics’ rebuilding process goes from 3-5 years to 2-3 and retains the longterm success they want.
I’ll be the first one in line pining for the departure of Watson and Wilcox. They don’t fit, flat out. But everyone in the NBA knows that same thing, and they aren’t going to get 1st round picks for them, let alone a semi-star.
July 16th, 2007 at 12:33 pm
Wilcox fits perfectly into the Phoenix system.
Maybe a trade for Thomas?
Gives us flexability a year sooner.
July 16th, 2007 at 12:38 pm
How does Watson not fit? Does that mean Ridnour does?
Instead of going after Kurt Thomas……lets ask Horace Grant to come out of retirement. I think they are the same age and share the same knee. He’d be cheaper too.
July 16th, 2007 at 12:59 pm
It means nothing
July 16th, 2007 at 1:10 pm
I’m hestitant about GP coming, but not about Petro going. Someone said that Petro doesn’t play with fire, and I think I know what they meant, but I would say that he doesn’t play with any intelligence. He just reacts physically, and whatever thoughts he does have about the game are not the right ones usually. I think he’s a bad influence on Sene that way, but at least Sene’s still pretty new to the game of basketball in general, let alone the NBA, so I can still give him the benefit of the doubt for now.
July 16th, 2007 at 1:28 pm
We do not need Thomas, I wouldn’t mind the picks.
I’d rather have GP back as a vet for his last year than have Kurt Thomas using 2007-08 to work on his 2008-09 contract.
Sign Gary Payton.
July 16, 2007
The Self-Transcendence of Gary Payton: A Will to Win
http://theseattlesupersonics.blogspot.com/2007/07/self-transcendence-of-gary-payton-will.html
July 16th, 2007 at 1:36 pm
Nice article, Mr. Baker
July 16th, 2007 at 1:38 pm
GP would be a good mentor for Luke too. Just imagine their practices. Guaranteed Luke would start hauling ass once GP lights a fire under him. Plus he can teach him some stuff on defense and really motivate the guy to play.
Kurt Thomas and GP together would be some amazing veteran leadership.
July 16th, 2007 at 1:43 pm
The reason to bring in Thomas is the “payment” for taking him. Draft choices most likely. Minutes at center should go to Swift and Collison.
July 16th, 2007 at 1:43 pm
Kurt Thomas can barely walk.
July 16th, 2007 at 1:51 pm
“GP would be a good mentor for Luke too. Just imagine their practices. Guaranteed Luke would start hauling ass once GP lights a fire under him. Plus he can teach him some stuff on defense and really motivate the guy to play.”
I’m not sure where someone would get the impression that Luke Ridnour needs someone to light a “fire” under him or to motivate him. Ridnour is probably one of the hardest, if not “the” hardest worker on the roster. He has some physical limitations that hamper him defensively against bigger PG’s, but anything that thinks Ridnour needs to be “motivated”, must not be paying attention.
His confidence was a bit shaken last season with all the lineup jerking around Hill did last season, but when you look up “hard Worker” in ‘old Websters you find a picture of Luke Ridnour.
July 16th, 2007 at 1:58 pm
One of the reasons you bring in GP is because he’s a PG that, with 2:30 left to play in a close game, comes in and makes sure the plays get run the right way, and that Durant and Green are in the right position to make the big plays that win close games. Or when they’re on the road playing their 5th game in 8 days, to teach the the kids how to bring the right mentality to the court.
You win a couple tough games like that early in the season, especially on the road, and youngsters start believing in themselves, and the direction of the team.
GP wouldn’t cost much on a 1-year deal, and if you’re committed to building a new culture, there hasn’t been a tougher player, mentally and physically, in the league over the last 15+ years.
GP may have won his ring in Miami, but he’s a Sonic for life, and he deserves to have his jersey retired here.
July 16th, 2007 at 2:09 pm
courtsense - great post; agree 100%.
My only concern is with Ridnour. He’s so mentally weak… one would think that Gary challenging would give him a positive push, but Luke’s confidence is so fragile it could have the opposite effect. He wilted under the challenge from Watson, and now people are saying that he was way too passive in response to Ray. Talent-wise he could be a good point guard, but he really really needs to grow a pair.
July 16th, 2007 at 2:16 pm
How about a sign and trade? GP & Doleac, and some pick for Watson. Miami needs a pg after losing out on Williams. Doleac expires after this season and is a veteran big (not high quality or anything, but…). You’d have to give GP ~ 2 million for a year for salaries to work.
July 16th, 2007 at 2:16 pm
“With a top 10 pick in a PG/SG heavy draft and a big FA signing in a solid market next year, the Sonics’ rebuilding process goes from 3-5 years to 2-3 and retains the longterm success they want.”
No offense, but you must not have been paying much attention over the last month or so.
1. The supes won’t have any room under the cap any time soon. We will go into next season just under the cap IF and only IF we let both Swift and West walk. Beyond that, we get some major help two years from now, assuming we don’t add anybody between now and then….of course at that point we will likely be looking to work on extensions to Durant and Green so…
2. Even if Presti worked some magic and dealt off all our dumb contracts (Watson, Ridnour, Wally, etc.) and found some significant breathing room…he is not going to make a “big FA signing.” It isn’t his MO, nor should it be.
Draft smart, trade smart, stockpile young assets with favorable contracts and use the free agent market ONLY for signing veteran role players.
On another note, tanking isn’t a strategy I endorse. While I can accept a season or two of mediocrity in order to build a foundation for long term success, we should also be building a winning culture. If we are banking on a top ten pick next year there is something fundamentally wrong with our philosophy.
Let the Grizz or Bobcats have the honor of taking OJ Mayo, I would rather try to win a game or two next year.
July 16th, 2007 at 2:18 pm
Great point on GP leadership possibilities, courtsense.
Those of y’all hoping Watson would get shipped instead of Luke, put down the pipe (you know, the one you been sharing w/Shawn Hemp & GP).
Presti & co are all about defense. Earl can play it at the NBA level, Luke can’t. Period.
July 16th, 2007 at 2:22 pm
“GP would be a good mentor for Luke too. Just imagine their practices. Guaranteed Luke would start hauling ass once GP lights a fire under him. Plus he can teach him some stuff on defense and really motivate the guy to play. ”
courtsense: “Or when they’re on the road playing their 5th game in 8 days, to teach the the kids how to bring the right mentality to the court. ”
Classic examples of how perception has absolutely nothing to do with reality. Luke Ridnour is THE MOST self motivated NBA player I have ever met. If you think he needs someone else to motivate him to play, you don’t know him. Period. The guy works harder at keeping in shape and on his game than anyone on the team in the last decade. GP on the other hand was probably the laziest practice player you’ve ever seen in your life.
I’m all for bringing back GP because I think he’s a nice fit for a 15 mpg backup PG role and would be a good draw for fans. BUt anything you get out of Gary as a teacher or a role model would be gravy IMO, because he has never been that kind of guy at any point in his NBA career.
July 16th, 2007 at 2:26 pm
It’s hard to say what Presti and PJ might be thinking about Luke and Earl, but certainly one of them has to be moved before training camp. Long-term, I can’t see either of them being here in 2 years. You don’t pay $6 million or so for a point guard that isn’t good enough to win a starting job outright.
Ask yourself this: if Ridnour and Watson each played for another team today, are either of them the kind of player you could imagine Presti bringing in? You might justify Watson if you could get him cheap, maybe for the MLE or below, but I can’t see it with Luke - not when the ‘08 draft is loaded with top PG prospects.
But I agree about GP and Luke…GP would grind him.
July 16th, 2007 at 2:42 pm
I think Watson will be the one to go since he’s easier to trade (without the trade exception) and Delonte’s cheaper and possibly better at the same things. The only way I can see Luke being traded is with the trade exception where we get someone back that will be a long-term piece. The problem with using the trade exception is that we have to take back more salary than we give out and we’re already basically at the cap. I’m not sure Bennett’s down with spending extra. So, if we use it, it will be because Presti convinced him what we’re getting back is a solid, long-term contributor for the team.
July 16th, 2007 at 2:44 pm
“I’m not sure where someone would get the impression that Luke Ridnour needs someone to light a “fire” under him or to motivate him. Ridnour is probably one of the hardest, if not “the” hardest worker on the roster. He has some physical limitations that hamper him defensively against bigger PG’s, but anything that thinks Ridnour needs to be “motivated”, must not be paying attention.”
Yes he is a very hard worker. However Lukes a guy that shys away from contact at all costs. Payton might be a guy that could motivate him to play hard and take it hard to the hoop. I’m not questioning his work ethic in practice, but that hard work in practice doesn’t help in-game unless he can overcome his fear of getting hit by big men in traffic. His settling for jumpers or floaters isn’t always going to cut it. Rid can better utilize his speed a bit better if he was as fearless as somebody like Tony Parker.
July 16th, 2007 at 2:47 pm
Hey Steve -
I never said anything about Luke needing leadership or motivation from GP. When I say “the kids” I’m referring to Durant, Green, and to a lesser extent Delonte West.
Neither have I ever said anything about GP’s practice habits. If you actually read my posts, you’ll see that I said one of the reasons you bring GP in is because he can contribute to a positive outcome in close games.
I happen to prefer Luke over Earl - just not for this team at this time. Having said that, if you watched any of the Sonics games last season, you saw a team that, notwithstanding Luke’s gamewinning shot early in the season against the Pacers, couldn’t execute a half court play late in a close game to save their freaking lives. Much of that falls on Bob Hill, some on the other players, including Ray and Rashard. But Luke had the ball in his hands a lot of times when the execution was flat out terrible.
That’s all I’m talking about with GP. Given the choice, I’d rather keep Luke because I think his upside is still higher than Earl’s. In some ways, because of Bob Hill’s mediocre coaching, Luke is still an unknown commodity.
That’s it. No knocks on Luke’s motivation from me. I do think he could have been stronger mentally in terms of coming off the bench, but then again it was obvious to me that Hill screwed him over, so…
July 16th, 2007 at 2:52 pm
“Robert Swift looks crazy menancing, is that kid on Roid?? What happened to that innocent 18 year old kid with that goofy @ss hair cut..
I can’t wait to see him bullying peeps out there. ANyone dare to put hard fouls on our boys, Swift will bring out his chainsaw from underneath the bench and regulate. yeah.. Swift is looking THAT CRAZY to me right now LOL”
That is comedy….
“I hope that he will return and be a vocal supporter of keeping the team in Seattle. GP has always been vocal on the court, hopefully he can open his mouth for the good of the community.”
That’s EXACTLY what I was thinking. I don’t know if Bennett is down, but if he wants to rally the ppl of Seattle and make them think this isn’t a firesale and he wants this team outta here, he’d get GP on board.
All I know is nothing would make me happier.
GP!!
GP!!
I’d even get out my old #20 jersey when the team comes down to beat the Clippers and the Lakers…Let’s do it, biiaaatchh!!!
July 16th, 2007 at 3:00 pm
Yeah I’d like to keep Luke over Early as well. He’s a guy that could really blossom when he’s confident. Is there a better way to gain that confidence than taking over the team in a leadership role now that Ray and Rashard are gone?
July 16th, 2007 at 3:07 pm
“Yeah I’d like to keep Luke over Early as well. He’s a guy that could really blossom when he’s confident. Is there a better way to gain that confidence than taking over the team in a leadership role now that Ray and Rashard are gone?”
I hate emotionally weak-a$$ players, like Ridnour.
I’ll even admit that Ridnour probably has a bigger upside than Watson, but geez, I hate to have to coddle a weak individual’s psyche. It usually doesn’t amount to greatness, or even productivity.
Refer to: Loren Wood, Oliver McCall (boxing), Joe Smith (early years as GS), Kerry Collins (FB), even shoulder slumping, beaten dog Nick Collison (prior to 2nd half of last season) to name a very few….these players that need to be sheltered from reality get very annoying and usually dumped halfway into a long contract, just like Ridnour almost did this offseason. Cut your losses, like we SHOULD HAVE this draft (Acie Law, Stuckey, etc.).
July 16th, 2007 at 3:24 pm
how about a link to the archive of this last game i’m in Yakima could not get the game.
July 16th, 2007 at 3:26 pm
http://tinyurl.com/2t233j
Just a little tid bit from Yahoo to mull over. Where’s Jeff Green?
July 16th, 2007 at 3:29 pm
The whole Luke vs Earl debate is stale…..like old cheap beer. Why? Because thats exactly what they are. Luke is Keystone Light and Earl is Busch Light. Its just a matter of preference who you like……but in reality neither is really that good or head and shoulders above each other.
I guess we could always trade for someone like Sergio Rodriguez and have Coors light. Or we could have gone after Steve Blake and had Bud Light. Because lets be honest…..you aren’t getting much back for those guys.
July 16th, 2007 at 3:30 pm
I think Luke gets one more chance to prove he can be the guy. We trade Watson to clear the path, and let Luke start every game and play 30+ minutes every night.
That leaves two possibilities:
A) Luke steps up, shows that he can live up to his talent, and the Sonics content for a playoff spot.
B) Luke falters, and the Sonics are back in the lottery.
If A happens, then sweet, we have our starting point guard.
If B happens, sweet, Luke will realize that he’s destined to be a backup and hopefully he adjusts his expectations accordingly. At the same time, the Sonics have another high pick in a PG-heavy draft.
The other option, trading Luke and starting Watson, might be a little better in the short term, but is a recipe for continued mediocrity at the PG position.
July 16th, 2007 at 3:31 pm
Funny seeing Corey Brewer one of the losers and shooting 28%. Wonder where are all the people that wanted Brewer over Green. They are probably the ones praising the drafting of Green now.
July 16th, 2007 at 3:35 pm
Green only had one really good game (and was hurt one game?). Probably doesn’t deserve to be on either list based on one game.
July 16th, 2007 at 3:38 pm
Hi guys, I’m a long-time reader and first-time poster. Nothing groundbreaking here, I just want to add my name to the “patient with Luke” camp. Every year I seem to talk myself into giving him another chance. Not sure what evokes this eternal optimism - usually I’m quick to give up on underperforming players. Maybe it’s the flashes of brilliance he showed in 04-05 playing in Nate’s rigid system. Could be the fact that he has been enveloped in instability during his tenure with the Sonics. I can imagine it is tough for a young PG to develop confidence when the roster and coaching staff is in constant turmoil.
My gut still tells me that he will develop into a tier-2 point guard (a la Andre Miller, Sam Cassell, Mike Bibby). His much-maligned jumper is actually pretty solid out to 20 feet; so what if he’s not a 42% 3-pt shooter? Obviously his ball-handling and passing skills are up to par. In the beginning of last season, he was effective at finishing in traffic. And regarding his defense, I tend to agree with some of the other posters who think that it can be masked with good team defense, which we should see under PJ and Presti.
Although I’ll probably regret saying this, I am all for handing the reins to Rid this season. We really have nothing to lose. If he can’t step up, kick his a$$ to the curb and replace him with Rose/Mayo/Gordon.
July 16th, 2007 at 3:56 pm
Shawn Kemp easily received the best ovation from the fans during the 40th anniversary event. It’s easy to make fun of the guy but he’s been fighting that addiction for years and he seems to have beaten it. That takes extreme perseverance and if I were Presti, I’d take a guy who can overcome that darkness on my team. Think about your favorite highlights from the 90s. I would bet that 83% of them involve the Reign Man.
July 16th, 2007 at 3:59 pm
talk about taking the opposite side just to disagree. You rail GP and then turn around and praise Kemp up and down the wall.
Classy.
July 16th, 2007 at 4:00 pm
Weren’t you saying no GP last night because he had a DUI? Now your saying yes to Kemp? I’m confused. I’m pretty sure you can’t have it both ways.
July 16th, 2007 at 4:02 pm
The fence just called. He said “pick a side”.
July 16th, 2007 at 4:02 pm
“…if I were Presti, I’d take a guy who can overcome that darkness on my team. Think about your favorite highlights from the 90s. I would bet that 83% of them involve the Reign Man.”
But you wouldn’t want GP to come back in some capacity because he would be a bad influence?
Those are pretty unreasonable and unfounded assumptions you’re making.
July 16th, 2007 at 4:02 pm
Yeah, Kemps track record is none too stellar, unfortunately.
July 16th, 2007 at 4:16 pm
I don’t think the Sonics should have ever considered Rudy T for the head coaching job because of his DUI. But I think Eric Mussleman would have been OK.
July 16th, 2007 at 4:18 pm
Sonics need better guard play. But I think a guy like Damon Stoudamire would be a bad influence with all the pot he smokes. I’ve heard JR Rider has turned his life around though. We should give him a call.
July 16th, 2007 at 4:20 pm
Ron Artest and Stephen Jackson are dispicable. Fighting fans in the stands is inexusable. My favorite player is Vernon Maxwell. hahahhaahahahaha
July 16th, 2007 at 4:22 pm
Vernon Maxwell might light a fire under Luke’s ass, literally.
I’ve heard he stopped eating people’s children. Might be a good fit for this ragtag group of youngins.
July 16th, 2007 at 4:22 pm
“Funny seeing Corey Brewer one of the losers and shooting 28%. Wonder where are all the people that wanted Brewer over Green. They are probably the ones praising the drafting of Green now. ”
I preferred Brewer at the time. After watching the game last night, it’s clear the Jeff Green has NBA-ready offensive skills. He’s not going to score 30+ once the season starts, but averaging 10+ pts. per game is a reasonable assumption. He’s got a better shot than Brewer, and better ball-handling skills. I fell in love with Brewer during the tournament. His athleticsm is off the charts. However, it appears that Green has the better NBA skills. Time will tell, but the pick is definitely looking better now than on June 28th. I stand corrected.
July 16th, 2007 at 4:23 pm
Aw damn Menace, you beat me to it.
July 16th, 2007 at 4:25 pm
Kobe and the Kobestopper are just wrong. Can’t believe they would ever treat a woman like that. Disgusting. Too bad Mike Tyson doesn’t play hoops……I’d sign him for sure.
July 16th, 2007 at 4:27 pm
“I fell in love with Brewer during the tournament. His athleticsm is off the charts. However, it appears that Green has the better NBA skills”
Green’s no slouch atheletically, either. He’ll just pack it out of nowhere.
July 16th, 2007 at 4:28 pm
“I fell in love with Brewer during the tournament. His athleticsm is off the charts. However, it appears that Green has the better NBA skills”
Green’s no slouch atheletically, either. He’ll just pack it out of nowhere.
July 16th, 2007 at 4:40 pm
Righton about Ridnour big worm. Our teams in the past couple have had weak characters all over. Definitely in need of some hard players.
July 16th, 2007 at 4:55 pm
“I’m not sure where someone would get the impression that Luke Ridnour needs someone to light a “fire” under him or to motivate him. Ridnour is probably one of the hardest, if not “the” hardest worker on the roster. He has some physical limitations that hamper him defensively against bigger PG’s, but anything that thinks Ridnour needs to be “motivated”, must not be paying attention.
His confidence was a bit shaken last season with all the lineup jerking around Hill did last season, but when you look up “hard Worker” in ‘old Websters you find a picture of Luke Ridnour. ”
Excellent post.
July 16th, 2007 at 5:06 pm
[i]I think Luke gets one more chance to prove he can be the guy. We trade Watson to clear the path, and let Luke start every game and play 30+ minutes every night.
That leaves two possibilities:
A) Luke steps up, shows that he can live up to his talent, and the Sonics contend for a playoff spot.
B) Luke falters, and the Sonics are back in the lottery.
If A happens, then sweet, we have our starting point guard.
If B happens, sweet, Luke will realize that he’s destined to be a backup and hopefully he adjusts his expectations accordingly. At the same time, the Sonics have another high pick in a PG-heavy draft. [/i]
I’m with you, big w. Watson is tradeable and no long-term answer. This would settle the question about Luke, imo. This is definitely the season to take this kind of gamble.
July 16th, 2007 at 5:12 pm
“The whole Luke vs Earl debate is stale…..like old cheap beer. Why? Because thats exactly what they are. Luke is Keystone Light and Earl is Busch Light.”
Meance, I’m a non-drinker. Could you please change the comparison of players to porno stars instead of beers. I am familiar with names like Kayla Kleevage, Minka and Pandora Peaks. I know nothing about beer. At my high school graduation party I had half a beer once. And one time back in 1977 my mommy let me have a sip of champaign at New Years.
July 16th, 2007 at 5:13 pm
Unless Swift can return his play to where it was last October, he shouldn’t be starting. The argument that he is the only “real” center with potential is a weak one. I do agree that Collison would be better starting at the 4. At this point and I speculate by November the best starting combo at the 4 and 5 will be Wilcox and Collison.
Call it like Calabro Says:
“Please lets not get sucked into the Dany Ainge mentality of losing games to gain lottery status. Presti just showed you the best way to attain top draft picks. And that would be a trade. While we were extremely lucky to get #2 this year it looks like the smartest move was moving Ray for Green, West and Wally. Winning at the lottery and picking KD didnt take much if any brains at all. Getting bthe 5 pick took some skill though. I would say never rely on luck and losing for anything. Presti will focus on winning not next years lottery pick. We don’t live on I-95. ”
I don’t think many, especially Presti, are going into this season specifically with the mentality of losing games to gain lottery status. He’s trying to build a team that will win in the long run. That means a lot of pain/losses in the short-term. No doubt this will be a lottery team next year. My belief is that this will be a top 5 team in losses. A positive perspective of these short-term growing pains is that with the losses, we will gain access to a draft class with a few franchise type point guards. It’s easy to imagine a top five team with: Durant, Green, Swift, and insert franchise type point guard of choice - Mayo or Rose; think of Deron Williams or Chris Paul. Furthermore, outside of possibly Durant and Green, the Sonics don’t have a trading asset like Allen or Lewis to get a top five pick for next year’s draft.
Please say no to the idea of bringing GP in as a player, but yes as a coach. I don’t know if Carlesimo and Payton would work well together, but Payton does fit the mold of an assistant that Carlesimo is looking for.
I think it’s too early to believe that Durant is the starting two and Green will be the starting three. At this point, if a nine man rotation is desirable, who is on it and how many minutes?
1: Watson (30), Ridnour (15)
2: West (30), Durant (15)
3: Durant (15), Green (30)
4: Wilcox (35), Collison (10)
5: Collison (20), Swift (25)
The extra 15 minutes probably goes to Szczerbiak.
The team fills out with Gelebale, Wilkins, and Petro.
Seafan Says:
“I don’t think the fans will regret the drafting of Green. He really reminds me of Sean Elliott. If he can have that kind of success the Sonics will really benefit. He’s a team first kind of guy who’d be able to play for anyone. Durant’s game should benefit from having another passer like Jeff on the floor who’s also capable of taking some of the offensive pressure off of him.”
That’s one of the better comparisons I’ve read/heard so far. I would like to think he is in the neighborhood of a Schrempf, Elliott, and Pippen.
July 16th, 2007 at 5:24 pm
Sonics PG thoughts…………..
I agree with many of the comments that say either luke or Eal have to go before training camp. Here is my 2 cents:
1. Ditch Earl W. - he is just to inconsistent, lousy shooter and what you see is what you get - a good career back-up PG but a lousy starting PG
2. Give luke 1 more solid shot. He has more “Upside”, is younger and he works plenty hard. I even think his “D” is trashed so much we start all believing it is worse than it is. He is not a great defender but Alot of his problem on “D” was being on a team with terrible defenders everywhere else. He hustles and he played terrific the first 2 months last year before being injured & jerked around by Bob Hill.
3. GP???? My heart says bring him back for a year - I love “The Glove”. But my head says he has lost it - he gave Miami nothing last year - his tank is empty. Give the spot & minutes to a younger guy. On the other hand you could pay him the veteran minimum for a 1-year contract & he’d probably love to do it - It would not cost you that much. I’m on the fence. If he could be positive in the locker room do it - if he would be a pain in the locker room back off of the idea. If you do bring him back he would need to come in with a great attitude & to support either LR or EW as the starting PG.
July 16th, 2007 at 5:46 pm
Payton said he wouldn’t want to be a coach or wouldn’t be the type to coach. However, during an interview in the last summer league game he said he’d like to take a spot in the front office.
July 16th, 2007 at 5:48 pm
At the end of the season I was hoping that both Luke and Earl would get moved and the Sonics would go after a legit starting PG, but, there aren’t too many out there (none that wouldn’t draw the life-force from our rookies).
After watching young Kevin and Green is Gold play I would have to say that I want the PG that is just as happy to get an assist as he would be to score himself, that isn’t Earl. We need a play maker, ball handler, passer. It’s near to impossible to play 3 poor defenders and expect to win, Rashard and Ray are gone. I can live with Luke (if I had to choose), more importantly, who is more fluid with the ball, because that what young Kevin and Green is Gold appear to be suited for, somebody willing to pass the ball, again that’s Luke.
If I were Luke, I would be working on my 3 point shot, I think he’s setting, driving, dishing, and then going to the three point line to be relief if the play doesn’t happen for the kids.
As somebody stated above, I wouldn’t bring in GP for Luke, it’s for the rookies, on the road, second of a back to back, late in a close game, how you win those. Besides, the league picks up part of his pay.
I trade Watson, use West as the “defensive” PG, package Petro or Wilkins or Wilcox, or all 4 (kidding).
July 16th, 2007 at 5:51 pm
Reading about the possibility of GP coming back has me really excited. I sure hope they do it.
July 16th, 2007 at 5:51 pm
Agree with you Mr Baker on Luke & Watson - And I think if they ditch Earl commit to Luke he will thrive in new ways.
July 16th, 2007 at 5:57 pm
The Glove was one of the worst players in the NBA last season. Gary scored as many points as you and I did in his 32 playoff minutes last season. During the regular season, he shot 39% from the field and 26% from the three point line. Frankly, Shawn Kemp contributes much more sitting on the bench than a guy who’s going to put up those numbers in 15-20 minutes. Kemp was arguably just as important, if not more, than Gary Payton was to the success of the 90s Sonics.
July 16th, 2007 at 6:00 pm
You guys keep talking about what a great veteran influence GP would have. Are we talking about the guy who never practiced when he was in Seattle? Would he do that now?
Did GP grow up because he got a ring? Or is he mature now because he’s in the twilight of his career?
I don’t think Luke should get railed because he doesn’t go into the key and initiate mass contact (if you watch Ridnour, he gets hit quite a bit)? He’s not a big guy, and getting hit over and over again is not smart. Shawn Alexander takes quite a bit of heat in Seattle over this very fact.
Luke’s tough, the game is hard. Not everyone can be a star right out of the gate. I think he’ll get it on the offensive end and always be challenged on the defensive end of the court (although he might be better than many here give him credit for).
July 16th, 2007 at 6:03 pm
I loved GP in the day but I don’t recall he was much of a team guy, except for teaching Vin Baker to party. I may have it wrong but in particularly I don’t recall he was reaching out to youngsters and easing their transition into the association. I also don’t see him keeping his mouth shut if he’s playing 10 minutes a night behind Rid/Watson on a team winning 30 games.
Bringing him onto a young developing team may not be the best move in developing the “culture” of the franchise. Much like Portland has unburdened it’s self of disruptive influences like Francis and Randolph I could see Presti steering well clear of GP.
It would be great for nostalgia, fans and selling tickets but I could also see the front office taking a pass on GP.
July 16th, 2007 at 6:05 pm
Menace, I respect your opinion and I must admit, I found your posts funny as well. However, whether you find it arbitrary or not, I would distinguish between a guy like Shawn who had (hopefully it is past tense) an addiction from a guy like Gary who committed an act that is really indistinguishable from the actions with which Stephen Jackson admitted culpability. While Jackson is a terrific basketball player, Gary is a very bad basketball player right now.
July 16th, 2007 at 6:06 pm
I don’t really see why there’s this big need to trade either Luke or Earl prior to the season unless there’s an upgrade to be had. Let PJ play both and see which one fits best into his system. Might as well wait it out and trade whichever one doesn’t fit at the deadline or next summer and draft a replacement.
IF GP was brought on board, one of them needs to be moved to make room??? C’mon! GP would be a ceremonial third stringer/player assistant coach at the end of the bench, similar to what Nate was at the end.
July 16th, 2007 at 6:08 pm
Dick, I thought Nate’s absence was the reason this team lost to the Bulls in 1996.
July 16th, 2007 at 6:13 pm
Green and Gold (Durant), i’m calling him the golden child
http://www.nba.com/summerleague2007/players/kamla_070716.html
July 16th, 2007 at 6:14 pm
LOL - yeah, that had to be the reason, Alex.
Nate also limped through two more seasons after that.
July 16th, 2007 at 6:15 pm
“I don’t think Luke should get railed because he doesn’t go into the key and initiate mass contact (if you watch Ridnour, he gets hit quite a bit)? He’s not a big guy, and getting hit over and over again is not smart. Shawn Alexander takes quite a bit of heat in Seattle over this very fact.”
Rid had a large drop off in ft attempts compared to his previous year. When you compare his attempts to somebody like Tyronn Lue, who played significantly less minutes AND games, yet able to get more ft attempts then Rid, then it is safe to say that Rid is not aggressive enough going to the basket and therefore needs some motivation to do so.
July 16th, 2007 at 6:16 pm
“I don’t really see why there’s this big need to trade either Luke or Earl prior to the season unless there’s an upgrade to be had.”
Which is probably Delonte West. West makes one of them redundant unless injuries occur.
July 16th, 2007 at 6:21 pm
While I advocated the acquisition of Gary Payton last season — through a trade with the Miami Heat wherein Payton and James Posey were dealt to the Seattle Supersonics for Earl Watson and Damien Wilkins — I’m wholly against him having his swan song this season. Yet, as dismaying as this may seem to some people, the time frame for that possibility has altogether passed for it.
In addition, Shawn Kemp’s farewell tour should’ve occurred at the end of last season. Although it’d've been at the expense of Andre Brown — who, in all reality, is a run-of-the-mill player with the upside of Aaron Williams — the financial boon and nostalgic reminiscing that’d've happened while “The Reign Man” finished up his career would’ve been totally worth it. At this point in time, though, our memories of Kemp shall remain just that.
Lastly, I vaguely remember proposing the return of Vin Baker — in conjuction with Payton and Kemp, of course — consequently, somebody here decided to heavily flame the poor ol’ drunkard. It was an amusing response to my twisted idea, which made me laugh.
July 16th, 2007 at 6:22 pm
Dick, I was joking in case that was missed. Though I do remember some of the diehards claiming that Nate’s absence played a role in the Sonic’s pounding at the hands of a transcendent team.
July 16th, 2007 at 6:23 pm
Also to add to that fact, Lue is no bigger than Luke. Tony Parker is about the same size as well yet shows no fear attacking the rim. Point being size is not a factor..
July 16th, 2007 at 6:25 pm
“Please say no to the idea of bringing GP in as a player, but yes as a coach. I don’t know if Carlesimo and Payton would work well together, but Payton does fit the mold of an assistant that Carlesimo is looking for.”
Because…..???? Sorry, but I don’t think there was a single sentence in that comment that made any sense.
July 16th, 2007 at 6:30 pm
“I don’t know if Carlesimo and Payton would work well together, but Payton does fit the mold of an assistant that Carlesimo is looking for.”
LOL how does he fit the mold of an assistant if he doesn’t even want to coach??
July 16th, 2007 at 6:35 pm
“The whole Luke vs Earl debate is stale…..like old cheap beer. Why? Because thats exactly what they are. Luke is Keystone Light and Earl is Busch Light.”
Menace, I’m a non-drinker. Could you please change the comparison of players to porno stars instead of beers. I am familiar with names like Kayla Kleevage, Minka and Pandora Peaks. I know nothing about beer. At my high school graduation party I had half a beer once. And one time back in 1977 my mommy let me have a sip of champaign at New Years.
July 16th, 2007 at 6:38 pm
I’m not a big fan of this “your comment is awaiting moderation” thing. I imagine Brian sitting calmly in his mahogany paneled den mulling over my potential post while enjoying a snifter of brandy with some Chopin playing elegantly in the back round. Does anyone know how to get by this so I can make fun of one of Menace’s posts?
July 16th, 2007 at 6:39 pm
Which is probably Delonte West. West makes one of them redundant unless injuries occur.
I’m thinking West was brought in to log most of the minutes at SG. I don’t really buy that Durant is suited to play SG more than a few minutes a game. Neither is Wally for that matter.
July 16th, 2007 at 6:42 pm
Steve, please don’t be sorry if I didn’t properly explain myself. I think Payton as a player is terrible. As a coaching possibility, I think Payton has potential to be an effective coach. But if he doesn’t fit in with what Carlesimo wants to do, then I wouldn’t want him with the Sonics. Also, Carlesimo is looking for a younger guy as an assistant coach.
July 16th, 2007 at 6:43 pm
“The whole Luke vs Earl debate is stale…..like old cheap beer. Why? Because thats exactly what they are. Luke is Keystone Light and Earl is Busch Light.”
Menace, I’m a non-drinker. Could you please change the comparison of players to porno stars instead of beers. I am familiar with names like Busty Dusty, BB Guns Chelsea Charms and Pandora Peaks. I know nothing about beer. At my high school graduation party I had half a beer once. And one time back in 1977 my mommy let me have a sip of champaign at New Years.
July 16th, 2007 at 6:54 pm
And there was a rumour that GP was trying to get into an organizational role here once he’d finished playing. Reckon they bring him back as a player/assistant coach? Would he get on well enough with PJ?
July 16th, 2007 at 7:52 pm
Payton could never bite his tongue enuf for PJ. IMO. I predict fireworks between the 2 once the losing got old. GP just doesnt seem like the nurturing type that could be patient with a youngster under his wing. I cant picture it.
July 16th, 2007 at 7:53 pm
The more I think about it the less sense it makes to bring GP back. I loved him when he was in Seattle > but bringing him back now would be for sentemental reasons not smart hoops reasons. He just does not have anything left in the tank. back-up PG minutes would be better served with developing younger players.
This would be a huge long-shot…. but if they want some positive locker room presence for the young rookies & a way to connect with some of the long-time Sonics fans bring on Dwayne Casey as an assistant. I realize this would be pretty much unpresedented and a new head coach just never does this kind of thing - but DC would be a great addition if he & PJ could work out the dynamics & realities of knowing DC came in 2nd in the head coach hiring competition.
Anyway….
Bring back GP > No
Trade Watson > Please
Let Luke be the clear starting PG > Yes
His game fits more with what KD & JG need - he will feed them the rock all night. He is a much better passer. He will never be a superstar but IMO he can become a solid & above average starting PG.
July 16th, 2007 at 7:58 pm
Presti should sign a couple veteran players that are available on the free agent market. GP brings veteran leadership skills and experience. Go Sonics!!
July 16th, 2007 at 8:39 pm
I’d love to see GP back with the Sonics in any capacity. After retiring, it looks like Payton will end up being an excellent agent for the players.
If West starts, trade Ridnour. If West is the combo-guard off the bench, trade Watson.
Alexander Johnson was surprisingly waived from the Grizzlies and would be a great signing.
Andray Blatche would be another high-potential big-man to acquire.
July 16th, 2007 at 8:57 pm
The reason why i’d trade Watson instead of Ridnour is that we just received a bigger and better version of Watson in Delonte West.
West is a solid defender who’s a couple of inches taller than Watson and therefore able to play alongside Luke without giving up to much size to the other teams backcourt players. He’s also a better shooter than Watson(we all know how crazy Watson drives you when he’s not on, which was quite often last season, and still chucking up his shots), cause he can hit his open shots, even from 3 point range.
July 16th, 2007 at 9:17 pm
“In addition, Shawn Kemp’s farewell tour should’ve occurred at the end of last season. Although it’d’ve been at the expense of Andre Brown — who, in all reality, is a run-of-the-mill player with the upside of Aaron Williams”
AK, that is a rare comment of value for me coming from you. Great comment…I like Brown, but very limited.
July 16th, 2007 at 9:45 pm
http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/photo?slug=getty-75093124ab016_sonics_blazers&prov=getty
If nobody has seen this image, its pretty sick. I plan on saving it and then forgetting about it on my hard-drive and rediscovering it in 10 years for an awesome feeling.
July 16th, 2007 at 9:49 pm
Silvio… Totally agree that this is another good reason to trade Watson & not Luke - among others.
July 16th, 2007 at 10:07 pm
Awesome pic, it even captured KC in the bottom left hand corner. So you have the two greatest Sonics ( Yeah KC is that good
of all time and the future greatest Sonic of all time.
July 16th, 2007 at 11:24 pm
I like that pic as well. GP’s unwavering devotion to the Sonics is a great thing. Even at his age, I think he has something left in the tank. I’m still amazed at how he came back from his downer season in orthodics in the Lakers to make some key shots in Miami’s championship run. In any case, it’s a cool picture showcasing two number 2 picks…
————————————————————————
Some Celtics fans seem to think that Delonte is actually better suited for the 2-guard spot than the point. If that’s the case, our lineup could look different next year…
————————————————————————
Are the rumors for picking up Rip Hamilton dead now?
July 17th, 2007 at 12:17 am
I’m kind of new to this board although I posted once, or twice a few years back.
Anyway I like Jackwhos’ 9 man rotation, and the main argument I see against getting rid of Earl, so that Luke can flourish with more minutes is that we got rid of AD in a similar situation, and Luke didn’t take advantage of that then.
I don’t think either need to go, but I think Earl as a backup can be a longterm option. Since Luke hasn’t proven to be a legit starter, but has that potential, I’m willing to give him another chance, although it seems like the clock is definitely ticking on him being the Sonics starting point guard.