Who was that guy? You know, the one who made all the big shots?
Posted on Wednesday, August 22nd, 2007 at 7:04 am by Brian Robinson
I owe Ian Furness an apology.
On draft day, now two months in the rear view mirror I made it to the Seattle Center loaded with signs declaring that “At #2 Seattle selects HOPE” and focused on Kevin Durant and Kevin Durant only.
Draft day is, as I’ve stated in the past my very favorite day of the NBA season and this was my first draft day that I got to really feel like an insider. Not 2 minutes after my arrival a friend at KJR advised about the trade and I did pretty much what any sports fan on the street would do, gave Ray a call to check on things. At the moment my life is weird.
The next hour was a blur. I was committed to letting Ian have his own story and determined only to tell people that I knew about the gossip. Unfortunately I now know everybody in Sonicsland and went running around for an hour blabbering to everybody about the deal that was going to occur. It was a real lack of professionalism and I did not mean, in any way to try to take Ians story and present it as my own. I know they were already talking about it on the radio, but I was a little out of line. Sorry to Ian. It was sheer excitement.
On draft day Sonics fans panicked. The consensus amongst reporters, radio announcers, and fans was that the loss of Ray Allen was a devastating blow to fan interest and the teams long term future here in Seattle.
60 days later I ask: How much are we missing Ray Allen?
At the time of the trade I stated that, while there would be a blow to fan interest it was clear that the tandem of Ray Allen and Rashard Lewis had never captured the imagination of this city the way that Shawn Kemp and Gary Payton had. While Allen was respected and generally liked, he was not loved.
Time seems to be bearing out this theory as fans have basically not mentioned Allen in a month. While the reality of his absence will likely sink in as the season approaches it is likely to be all but lost in the frenzy as Kevin Durant prepares to make his Seattle debut. Durant, the 18 year old phenom from Texas will assume the role of star vacated by Allen while the centerpiece of the Allen trade, rookie Jeff Green will quietly be expected to fill some very big shoes.
Make no bones about it, the trade of Ray Allen will eventually be judged on the performance of the young rookie from Georgetown. In normal circumstances a rookie acquired for an established star such as Allen would be the center of glaring attention, almost unattainable expectations however in many ways Green will benefit greatly from both Kevin Durant, and the uncertainty of the Sonics future. Both issues are so large and overwhelming that they should dominate fans attention detract from the monster expectations that come with being traded for Ray Allen.
While fans have not yet decided that they love this team I think it is fair to say that they had made up their mind about Ray. They did not love him enough. Without Ray the record may be less impressive but the overall interest appears to be increased due to the fact that Sam Presti is executing a plan that people can believe in. As far as I can see the trade of Ray Allen, as part of that plan has not hurt fan interest at all.
August 22nd, 2007 at 7:32 am
Every fan reacts to Ray’s departure a little bit differently. As for me, I loved Ray’s character and I think that overall he represented us well. Ray’s offcourt contributions are unparalleled, and we’ll never see another player quite like him in the Seattle community. But, this is a business, and we sent Ray home to the New England area to contend for a championship with Pierce and Garnett. What more could he ask for? It’s like sending Drexler back to Houston to finish his career. Ray will contend right away, and we will contend with KD and JG in 3 years. So, I think it’s a win-win situations.
In addition, IMO we possibly got the best work ethic in the draft. KG, Durant, and Kobe were the ONLY guys working out during an optional practice on Sunday in Las Vegas. We’ve got guys who can completely ignore distractions in a city with plenty of them to focus on basketball. Add that to the fact that many of our guys on our roster are from the DC/Maryland area, and we’ve got 4 guys who can potentially work out together in DC or Seattle (KD, KG, West, and Wilcox). That is going to build great team chemistry on the floor and in the locker room. I think we should keep those 4 together.
I miss Ray, however, I’m more excited about our future.
August 22nd, 2007 at 8:04 am
I loved Ray and Rashard well enough. They were both good people bringing positive things to the community and exciting offensive nights to the arena. What never came to pass with their time in Seattle was a meaningful run of success. It had become clear even at their best we were a long shot to be a low playoff seed and more regularly a high lottery team. Their games were simply not going to be the foundation to build around and hit the next level. We tried that route and failed.
I wish them well and hope they can be a part of a winning team elsewhere. I think we made the right move by letting them both go and building something new even if it takes a year or two. We could have hardly gotten any worse than we were last year with them I’m excited to see where we go with a new core and philosophy.
August 22nd, 2007 at 8:14 am
It’s funny about Ray. We all love the Sonics and by extension, most of the players who perform well; but I’m not sure that Ray ever endeared himself to Seattle fans the way others did (I’m thinking of GP, Kemp, Steve Largent, Griffey etc) and maybe because Ray was only here 4 years, maybe it was because he was too professional (of course so was Largent, but he had a long career in Seattle). I think players with warts (I mean “issues”) somehow endear them to us. It was GP’s attitude, his snarl, his loud mouth, Kemp’s issues are well documented, Griffey and his dad, he always wanted to be in cincy…on and on.
Ray maybe wasn’t endeared to Seattle fans. I didn’t really think through this point, but it just seems he was too clean and professional, and we like our sports stars a bit dirty.
August 22nd, 2007 at 8:34 am
Brain, great thread topic. I feel very positive about what Presti is putting together. As you know, there was tons of traffic here with everyone weighing in on their analysis of all the moves shortly after draft day. At one point, I was wondering if I was just rationalizing everything to buy in to the bright future we have. But no, it isn’t rationalization, it’s solid. Even with the question marks at the point and center, (two very important positions as Courtsense pointed out) it feels like a step in the right direction. My concerns are now with team leadership. Allen was great with that. That is a void hard to fill. That is why I asked who everyone thought our team captain might be. I guess I place a higher value on that than others. The only other concern I have is if Bennett decides to sell the team to a local buyers, we’ll probably lose Presti, yes? I have really taken a liking to this guy. But, that dilemma is a few years away and I’ll start worrying about that then.
August 22nd, 2007 at 8:59 am
Presti is employed by the team. If the team is sold, Presti goes with it. Now if/when Bennett get’s a new team in OKC he might press hard to get Presti back. Personally I hope that if the Sonics stay Presti stays in Seattle for a long time.
August 22nd, 2007 at 9:03 am
Ray was a great player and I really liked his game. I liked the way he handled himself on the court and in the press.
Lewis was a solid, talented player.
Payton and Kemp were liquid fire. The scrappy, fear inducing perimeter defense played by Payton and the primal strength and explosive energy of Kemp blended like a perfect beverage. On defense no one got by Payton on their own and even less got by George Karl’s traps. If they did get by the perimeter, Kemp was there to block the shot, rebound the ball or just get in their way. On offense Gary could drive the ball with abandon and just lob it near the hoop knowing Kemp would catch it and do something fun with it.
Ray and Rashard were more soft and graceful on the court, great players, but not excitement. They brought you out of your seat with a dazzling fade away three under pressure or an occasional fast break alley-oop. That excitement always came AFTER the play.
Payton and Kemp were much more primal and CREATED excitement. You would be on the edge of your seat BEFORE the play, because you could feel that something was going to happen.
I think Ray would be more missed if it weren’t for the reality of the fact that the team stunk added with the uncertain future at the hands of an ownership group which really seems to dislike its Seattle fanbase.
August 22nd, 2007 at 9:17 am
On defense no one got by Payton on their own and even less got by George Karl’s traps.
- **cough** **cough** Robert Pack **cough** **cough**
I think Ray would be more missed if it weren’t for the reality of the fact that the team stunk added with the uncertain future at the hands of an ownership group which really seems to dislike its Seattle fanbase.
- I think most fans understand why the move was made. This is a trade that will be impossible to judge because we were never able to see what the duo of Durant and Allen could’ve done together. I think that would’ve been a pretty powerful duo and still feel that Green will be much more of a role player than an above average star. However, it is what it is and everyone has done a good job of moving forward to support the team.
August 22nd, 2007 at 9:19 am
(I’m thinking of GP, Kemp, Steve Largent, Griffey etc)
- Other then maybe adding Edgar and Big Walter to that list, this would be a list of my all-time favorite Seattle sports figures. However, I would always wonder if they would have been nearly as popular if it were not for their team’s successes in the playoffs.
Of course, it is a two way street…the players become more popular because they make it to the playoffs and that is something that is deserved…so maybe Ray didn’t “deserve” to be as well loved as those guys.
August 22nd, 2007 at 9:27 am
Dont mean to be a Debbie Downer, but, Aren’t Green and Durant the only players who are not 21 and couldn’t really do anything other than go to practice?
Kobe was there because he still feels the pang of a $4.5 million make up gift for his wife and didn’t want a repeat.
August 22nd, 2007 at 9:35 am
While all this Ray and Rashard love fest is nice, I’d like to remind everyone that Rashard wasn’t an all around good guy. Remember he was caught driving drunk in Mercer Island. The guy could have killed some one. And last but not least it wasn’t like he was .10, he was .20, over double the limit.
So in my book, Lewis wasn’t an all around good guy. Good riddance.
August 22nd, 2007 at 9:39 am
“60 days later I ask: How much are we missing Ray Allen?”
To be honest, i’m not missing Ray that much.
Of course some of us were upset at that trade(not me, though), but i don’t think many are feeling the same way right now.
With Allen(and Lewis) we had one good year out of 4 and quite frankly, we were going nowhere with them as our core players.
With Durant and Green we’re now building for the future and there is(just like you’ve said) a plan that everyone can believe in.
We might not even achieve those 31 wins we got last season, but i think we’ll be more satisfied, cause we all know that we’re trying to build something that might be able to challenge for a title a couple of years down the road, instead of keeping a mediocre team that might be able to win a playoff series.
So i’m happy for Ray(who i wish nothing but the best in Boston) and for us, cause i think both sides got a good deal on draft night.
August 22nd, 2007 at 9:42 am
LOL, so true about Kobe! As for why we loved kemp/GP and not as much for Ray/Ra, its very simple: In the 90’s we were feared team, we went to the finals and even managed to beat the Bulls (arguably best team ever) twice before bowing out. Ray and Ra never did this, they had a highflying year one year and had that carried into the next season we would be remembering that duo diffirently. Instead the situation looks more like a fluke (although i firmly believe we have been better than demonstrated). Success=love NOT the other way around. I was a huuuge Ray fan and the only reason I came to terms with seeing Ra leave was because the writing was on the wall (remember his previous contract extension when he was supposed to go to Dallas/Houston?). Give Ray a championship and he WOULD have been loved like he was MJ, take that away and everyone feels indifferent. Such is sport. He cared, but was just soooo proffesional about it: “That’s basketball” (ray’s comment after missing the potential game tying 3 over Duncan in game 6 of the Spurs-Sonics series)
August 22nd, 2007 at 9:43 am
Kobe was there because he still feels the pang of a $4.5 million make up gift for his wife and didn’t want a repeat.
- Anyone catch Kobe on “The Best D@mn Sports Show” last night. John Sally was trying to mess with him and he just wasn’t having it…I’ve never seen a human being I dislike more than Kobe Bryant…I can’t even imagine him having friends.
While all this Ray and Rashard love fest is nice, I’d like to remind everyone that Rashard wasn’t an all around good guy. Remember he was caught driving drunk in Mercer Island. The guy could have killed some one. And last but not least it wasn’t like he was .10, he was .20, over double the limit.
So in my book, Lewis wasn’t an all around good guy. Good riddance.
- Yes…lets hold it against him for making one bad decision (one that 90% of us probably have at least one) over a 7 year span.
August 22nd, 2007 at 9:51 am
“The guy could have killed some one. And last but not least it wasn’t like he was .10, he was .20, over double the limit.”
Don’t let facts get in the way of a good story.
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/sonics/2002908925_lewis04.html
Rashard’s a good guy, he made a mistake. He wasn’t the only one there that night.
August 22nd, 2007 at 9:55 am
On Tuesday, Carlesimo declined to comment on the new hires until the team makes an official announcement,
Looks like PJ learned from Lennys mistake……
August 22nd, 2007 at 9:57 am
As the article above states, “The consensus amongst reporters, radio announcers, and fans was that the loss of Ray Allen was a devastating blow to fan interest and the teams long term future here in Seattle.” That is the reason Mr. Presti and Mr. Bennett made the trade. Their ulterior motive was to stab at fan interest of Seattle, so that they could steal this team from the city of its birth 40 years ago. Before all the shills paid by Mr. Bennett to post on this site shout me down, allow me to explain why the trade itself was bad.
A contending team needs a balance between various parts. Offense and defense, inside and outside play, veterans and youth, transition & half-court. Teams need tall players and short. Shooters and penetrators. Hot and cool.
Ray Allen has an incredible skill = Shooting. He is a real star (although not a superstar). He can fill a key role on a championship team. Just ask Kevin Garnett, who refused to go to Boston, then changed his mind because of the acquisition of Ray.
Ray was traded for a rookie tweener forward - not quite a power forward physically, but Green has exceptional passing skills, vision and basketball IQ to go with his power forward game. Perhaps he will develop into a Pippen or Sean Elliott type. That would be a super-optimistic upside for a rookie who would more likely be a Damien Wilkins type player - nice guy with average skill all around, but not excelling anywhere particular. Green could also be a bust. Don’t scoff at the notion as even #1 and #2 overall picks frequently turn into busts.
Seattle also got a nice player in Delonte West, who did just okay on a horrible team in ‘06-’07, and Wally Szczerbiak with his 2 year $24 mil contract and two ankle surgeries. I promise you there is not a team out there that would take Wally without demanding huge compensation, more than D West is worth. For example, to move the 1 year $8.1 mil expiring contract of a terrific bench player in Kurt Thomas, Phoenix coughed up 2 #1 picks. To be near comparable, the Sonics should have demanded at least 3 #1 picks to take Wally - one of the most unpopular players currently in the NBA. The Sonics also gave up a #31 overall pick, plus the sting of trading Allen for two players at Rashard’s position was like a broom sweeping him out of Seattle. By these numbers, either Jeff Green has to become a superstar (better than Ray) to justify this trade.
All that said, as the article notes, fan interest has increased. I attribute this solely to Durant. KD has gotten a lot of hype - justifiably. He is being hyped as and may even be the next Kobe (remember when we would say “the next Air Jordan”?). Mr. Presti lucked out when Orlando went ballistic in overpaying Rashard, which handed the Sonics an undeserved trade exception. If Orlando had not insanely insisted that Rashard be locked up for a 6th year then the Sonics would have received ZERO for RL.
I admit being more interested in the new team than last year’s crap that Mr. Bennett gave us, but without more trades, the team will have a worse record this season as we dive deeper into the lottery pool. My increased interest is almost entirely due to its freshness. However, I would have been just as interested if Presti had done nothing more than draft Durant (a gimme, that Presti gets no credit for) and added two wisely picked rookies with our #31 and #35 overall picks, plus had Swift return healthy. Now that would be really exciting. Add a new coach and, if Rashard still insisted on leaving, then we could have added Kurt Thomas and Phoenix’s #1 picks to the stable. The Sonics would also have had the financial room to add a mid-level exception player, which can’t be utilized this year without paying luxury tax due to Wally. If Mr. Presti still wanted to trade Ray, he could have done so later, not the first week on the job, not in a panic.
Mr. Presti’s moves have not only been less than unimpressive - they have been deliberately intended to torpedo fan interest. Luke will be the next target of the whitewash, as he is the only local product on the team.
August 22nd, 2007 at 10:15 am
Rock:
First of all, you are way out of line calling people shills because the vast majority of people that post here don’t agree with your poorly thought out conspiracy theories. Secondly I find it offensive in the extreme that out of all the unpaid time that has been put into keeping this team here for YOUR enjoyment on the part of this site’s authors that you have the brass balls to come here and cast stones and especially accuse people of being shills for Clay Bennett when this site has pretty much been the ONLY voice that hasn’t folded its tent and left this team to go to OKC.
Secondly, this team under Ray Allen and Rashard Lewis won NOTHING and sported some of the worst defensive teams in modern NBA history. The new general manager, eager to put his own stamp on the team, wisely blew it up rather than cling to the previous regime’s failed model. I thought that was inherently obvious to anyone with two brain cells to rub together, apparently you are not one of those people.
The rest of your post is laughable garbage and warrants no further reponse.
August 22nd, 2007 at 10:18 am
“Mr. Presti’s moves have not only been less than unimpressive - they have been deliberately intended to torpedo fan interest.”
And yet they haven’t?
So one of two things comes to mind, either you’re off your rocker or you’re right on track and Presti much like Bennett can’t execute any plan without the opposite of the expected coming true…hmmm, I’ll have to ponder.
August 22nd, 2007 at 10:23 am
One thing I would add is that there’s a real chance that Delonte West takes the pressure off Jeff Green; he’s young enough to take a step forward, and his skillset is broad enough that if he does, he could be more than just “a nice player,” he could be a borderline all-star. Considering that he’s currently seen largely as an afterthought, if that happens, it would cause a major shift in public perception of the deal.
August 22nd, 2007 at 10:34 am
As for Durant becoming the next Kobe, I sure hope not, because then we’d next the next shaq (oden) to ever win anything. Durant is going to be a much better team player and will imrpove his team rather than take away from it. I’d rather have a championship than an 80 pt game ANYDAY!
August 22nd, 2007 at 10:49 am
Scott, perhaps I did not make my point well, that adding Durant increased interest in the team. Period. Especially for the casual fan. If the Sonics added two other rookies #31 & #35 overall, plus the return of Swift, plus Kurt Thomas plus whatever the Sonics would have gotten with their unused mid-level exception, plus a new coach, minus Rashard, then there would have been even more fan interest and a much better team this next season.
Yes, I am more interested in D West and J Green than Ray Allen. I was tired of Ray and the system designed around him. I could see moving Ray at the right time for the right players in return. Ray made it look so easy, scoring 26 points a night. I am more entertained by a Wade-type slasher. Furthermore, I really hope West and Green become starters on a contending team in Seattle. In this case, I would like to be wrong.
My bet is that in the ‘09-’10 season two years from now, the Sonics would have been better off with Ray and our three 2007 picks then 2-year veterans plus whatever players the Sonics could have brought in with the money paid to Wally. My bet is that several players drafted in the 2nd round will make us cry in our soup that we didn’t keep our picks, and that some players drafted after Green will turn out better than the man we selected.
August 22nd, 2007 at 10:51 am
This post says…
“While fans have not yet decided that they love this team I think it is fair to say that they had made up their mind about Ray. They did not love him enough.”
Maybe true - maybe not - impossible to prove either way. But I would say While he was here Ray was very much appreciated, respected and maybe “Loved”. Hey - he was only here for 4 years as the guy who replaced GP! And he won the fans support fast. I think in this context it is impressive how much Ray was supported. Certainly he earned this in the year the Sonics won 50+ games & went into the playoffs the 2nd round. But after that - the Sonics problems were NOT Ray’s fault. (Wally W. is in a tie with Isaiah Thomas as worst GM in the History of the NBA)
Any team & community would be fortunate to have Ray around. He is a fantastic player - complain about his “D” some if you want but Ray Allen is a stud - a class act - a terrific leader - a competator and a guy who gave back big-time to the Seattle community and fans.
I’ll miss him. I say Go Sonics - but also in the East > Go Celtics! I’d love to see Ray & KG lead the C’s to the finals.
August 22nd, 2007 at 11:03 am
Its weird how Paul Pierce went from stud of the roster to 3rd option in only a few weeks time.
August 22nd, 2007 at 11:10 am
“60 days later I ask: How much are we missing Ray Allen?”
They haven’t lost a game without him yet!
August 22nd, 2007 at 11:12 am
“I owe Ian Furness an apology.”
He got over it by patting himself on the back for two weeks Brian, maybe you don’t owe him anything.
August 22nd, 2007 at 11:22 am
Rock,
I don’t take offense with your post; everyone is entitled to post after all (at least those of us who make it past moderation).
I do however respectfully take a slightly different view. While the 09-10 team with Ray Allen (your scenario) may have been better than whatever the Sonics offer, I am going with my gut that it would not have been good enough to win a championship (with an aging Ray).
I think the nucleus in place now has a higher upside and the 10-11 team will contend.
Also, gut again, but Green will have a w-a-a-a-ay brighter career than Wilkens. He’s a better player right now.
August 22nd, 2007 at 11:24 am
On the Allen/Celtics Trade Itself….
When this trade was first announced I was down on it. I love having Ray as a Sonic - he is a stud. I could see (& still can) the value of having Ray as a model and support to KD. But I have grown to like the thinking/philosophy around the trade in this way:
1. t’s all about winning a title - not just making the playoffs
2. With Ray & KD Sonics were not going to win a title in the next 2-3 years - KD is still to young & Ray is getting older & teams like Suns, Spurs, Mavs all appear to have 2-3 more solid years with their core in place.
3. Timing: It’s all about building towards 2009/2010 & beyond. At that point Ray’s career is coming to a close - almost over. So what would you want AT THAT POINT around KD? Ray - or a JG who at 24 is heading into his prime with 3 years of NBA experience & bonding with KD under his belt?
4. Other Pieces: D. West may or may not help - anything he gives Sonics is probably a bonus - Wally sucks & is overpaid - but his BIG contract is up in 2 years. This gives Sonics earlier flexibility of having a major salary cap relief point in 2 years instead of in 3 years when Ray’s current big contract is up. Now I realize Ray is 100 times better than Wally & it would be great to have him around > but > I’m just saying we had to take Wally to get the #5 pick & having his contract done in 2 years is somewhat more helpful than Ray’s after 3. Look at how players like K. thomas & Theo Ratliff had trade value this summer as they entered the final year of large contracts. Next summer Wally will have the “NBA Weird Value Dynamic” > No one wants him as a player but they may want to trade for him because of his contract is expiring
5. So the trade hurts Sonics now - in short term. They lose more today - in the next 1-2 years - but they get a key asset in place (JG) to help them hopefully win a lot more in the future. So long term it makes sense because with KD hitting his stride in 2-3 years that is when the Sonics will need support around him & JG willbe there instead of RA retiring.
Again > I think this Thinking/Philoosphy makes sense - but it also is very dependent on JG becoming a stud. And GM’s get paid for scouting well. Presti hung himself out there for JG. He thinks JG will become an all-star level player and if he does - this trade will be viewed as terrific. If he is a bust - the trade is a bust.
So like all trades - time will tell > But I have come to appreicate the thinking around the trade. Ray was great - but likely has 2-3 great years left. IMO it can make sense to say over the next 2-3 years we’ll lose more with JG than we would have with RA > So that we can have a solid young all-star level player alongside of KD as they enter into what we hope will be a long run of 50+ win seasons and title contending journeys beginning in with the 2009/2010 season.
August 22nd, 2007 at 11:26 am
You wouldn’t want Durant to have a career like Kobe’s? I would be pretty happy if Kevin can replicate what Kobe has done for the Laker franchise and win three championships for the city of Seattle. Of course, your response is that Shaq won the title all by himself for the Lakers. Somehow, I find it difficult that one man could defeat five other men on the court, especially on defense.
August 22nd, 2007 at 11:29 am
Rock… You often have a lot of good points but I question this one: You say part of the motivation for this trade on Seattle’s (Presti/Bennett) part was:
“Their ulterior motive was to stab at fan interest of Seattle, so that they could steal this team from the city of its birth 40 years ago.”
I agree Bennett has been dishonest all along & he want’s the sonics in OKC - But I think it is a major reach to suggest the trade was made to kill Fan interest to support the move. The reality is no one can prove this either way. I can’t & you can’t. But it just seems to me that this was a basketball decision - pure and simple. I think you can legitimately say they wanted to trade Ray before he got too old and they likely felt trading him sooner rather than later would bring in more value.
But Hey > I’m with you on exploring a trade for JO!
August 22nd, 2007 at 11:53 am
You wouldn’t want Durant to have a career like Kobe’s? I would be pretty happy if Kevin can replicate what Kobe has done for the Laker franchise and win three championships for the city of Seattle. Of course, your response is that Shaq won the title all by himself for the Lakers. Somehow, I find it difficult that one man could defeat five other men on the court, especially on defense.
- It seems many people have a hard time removing Kobe the person from Kobe the player. I hate the guy with a passion, but he is one of the greatest players of all time based on pure skill.
- As for the Ray trade…it seems how much you like the trade boils down to how much you like Jeff Green. If you think Jeff Green is going to be a borderline All-Star you are OK with the trade…if not, the trade is harder to defend.
August 22nd, 2007 at 12:04 pm
JJ, you are right that I have no insight. I am only making suggestions that some of these moves have bad ulterior motives on the part of the ownership group. I make observations and throw out ideas for discussion. I do not know if I am right or not.
I really hope I am wrong. I have said in prior posts here that I give Mr. Bennett the benefit of the doubt, because he could merely be playing hardball to force the complacent citizens to press for a stadium solution, while privately remaining committed to keeping the franchise in Seattle. Perhaps Mr. Bennett told the truth when he said he would like to find a way to keep the team here. However, every action taken by Mr. Presti and Mr. Bennett seems to confirm their intentions to gut Seattle fan support to the greatest extent possible, consistent with maintaining the value of this $350 million dollar business investment.
August 22nd, 2007 at 12:53 pm
“While all this Ray and Rashard love fest is nice, I’d like to remind everyone that Rashard wasn’t an all around good guy. Remember he was caught driving drunk in Mercer Island. The guy could have killed some one. And last but not least it wasn’t like he was .10, he was .20, over double the limit.”
DUI: soapbox
.132…….and he didn’t get a DUI. He got reckless driving which means the breathalyzer was thrown out. You can get the exact same punishment for going 85 on I-90.
Do you know anyone who has a DUI? Are they all bad guys? .08 is two beers. Go out to a restaurant/or bar on a weekend. Everyone drinking must be a bad guy huh?
Alcohol tolerance is dependent on the person. Two people the same height, age, size can each have two drinks. One could be puking after. The other may feel nothing. .08 doesn’t take that into account.
August 22nd, 2007 at 1:09 pm
I agree Menace but the likelihood of someone getting charged with reckless driving driving 85 mph on I-90 is extremely slim. A better analogy may be driving 85 mph on East Mercer Way unintoxicated, which may be just as dangerous as driving the speed limit on East Mercer Way while intoxicated.
August 22nd, 2007 at 1:30 pm
DUI: soapbox
.132…….and he didn’t get a DUI. He got reckless driving which means the breathalyzer was thrown out. You can get the exact same punishment for going 85 on I-90.
Do you know anyone who has a DUI? Are they all bad guys? .08 is two beers. Go out to a restaurant/or bar on a weekend. Everyone drinking must be a bad guy huh?
Alcohol tolerance is dependent on the person. Two people the same height, age, size can each have two drinks. One could be puking after. The other may feel nothing. .08 doesn’t take that into account.
- Exactly…if there are people on this board who have never ever driven while intoxicated I give them a ton of credit. However, I would argue they would be in the vast, vast, vast majority…and I don’t think anyone here is a “bad person”…
…well except Heavy, but who’s counting
J/K
August 22nd, 2007 at 3:02 pm
Opps… sorry for the .20 error… .132 is only 1.5 times over the limit. Personally I don’t think it makes you a bad person if you’re speed and you get pulled over and ticket, even though you could potentially do as much damage as someone who’s driving drunk. That said, there really is no excuse to be speeding like he was especially if he has been drinking. It shows immaturity from a guy who had just finished his first All-Star caliber season. This guy was one of the faces of the franchise and his “mistake” could have cost some there life. Thank God it didn’t. To that end, I think that qualifies Lewis for as not been a quote “good guy.”
August 22nd, 2007 at 3:04 pm
“Any team & community would be fortunate to have Ray around. He is a fantastic player - complain about his “D” some if you want but Ray Allen is a stud - a class act - a terrific leader - a competator and a guy who gave back big-time to the Seattle community and fans.
I’ll miss him. I say Go Sonics - but also in the East > Go Celtics! I’d love to see Ray & KG lead the C’s to the finals.
Great summation JJ. I agree completely. I’ll miss him too. Unlike a lot of others on this board apparently, I loved watching him play, and I had no problems getting excited about his game.
What I do find striking, however, is the apparent need on this board, from the top on down, to diminish Ray at every opportunity. I don’t understand it. It’s like the minute he was traded he ceased being a worthy player/person. All of a sudden, he was a locker room cancer; a one-dimensional player; a chucker; never played d in his life; caused the offense to stall; was “non-athletic”; and now apparently people never “loved” him. Give me a flippin’ break.
August 22nd, 2007 at 3:07 pm
Opps… sorry for the .20 error… .132 is only 1.5 times over the limit. Personally I don’t think it makes you a bad person if you’re speed and you get pulled over and ticket, even though you could potentially do as much damage as someone who’s driving drunk. That said, there really is no excuse to be speeding like he was especially if he has been drinking. It shows immaturity from a guy who had just finished his first All-Star caliber season. This guy was one of the faces of the franchise and his “mistake” could have cost some there life. Thank God it didn’t. To that end, I think that qualifies Lewis for as not been a quote “good guy.”
- Well then I guess it is safe to assume that you don’t believe anyone in the NBA is a good guy because I am sure every player has done something similar…just havent been caught.
August 22nd, 2007 at 3:10 pm
Here’s a wiki on BAC
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_alcohol_content
Lewis’ 0.132 fall under these two categories:
.11–.20
Behavior
* Over-Expression
* Emotional Swings
* Angry or Sad
* Boisterous
Impairment
* Reaction Time
* Gross Motor Control
* Staggering
* Slurred Speech
So to say having impaired reaction time and lose of motor skills paired with the fact that he was speeding is that big of deal is short sided to say the least.
August 22nd, 2007 at 3:23 pm
Myk, you have good point that many people may have done or do what Lewis was caught doing. Where it be an NBA player, blue collar, or white collar worker if you do what Lewis did then it shows an extreme lack of judgment.
Does this make you good or bad? I’m I the end all judge on this, NO! I just wanted to say the Lewis what’s good person all the time, and his lack of maturity was evident in this DUI arrest. Finally, if you look at the wiki link I just posted:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_alcohol_content
It has a section on body weight we can approximately that Lewis (current listed at 230 lbs, probably 210-220 at the time of incident) would have had to have downed 7-8 drinks in order to reach the BAC of .132 that he tested to from the blood sample after the DUI incident.
How can you possible say that knowing entering a car after having 7 or more drink isn’t sign of immature person? He should have known better, he should be a quote “good person” and taken a cab home. But he wasn’t and he got caught and potential could have killed someone.
August 22nd, 2007 at 4:43 pm
I agree with Hoopster.
To me, Brian’s entry was just as poor as his earlier one after the trade about “Ray’s guys”.
August 22nd, 2007 at 4:55 pm
“So to say having impaired reaction time and lose of motor skills paired with the fact that he was speeding is that big of deal is short sided to say the least.”
Just because you blow over the legal limit……..does not mean that the above is true. Its all dependent on the person and their tolerance. Notice how the Lewis article doesn’t mention the results of the sobriety test? Thats usually what happens when you pass.
I take it your not a drinker are you mcwalter? Newsflash. Its dependent on tolerance. Did you take into account the dude is 6′10″? You can throw all the math/ so called scientific info you want out there. But think about it. 7-8 drinks might not be that much to a 6-10 guy. .123 could mean blacked out drunk for some people. It could mean just getting started/feeling nothing for others.
August 22nd, 2007 at 5:00 pm
I always liked Ray - I liked him before we got him, I liked the trade for GP, and I liked him after we had him.
I just thought that, for a variety of reasons, some of which had nothing to do with Ray, it was time to “cut bait” or “get off the pot” with both Ray and Rashard - and start over with Durant.
I couldn’t be happier for Ray now that he’s with KG in Boston, and I hope they get a chance to play in the Finals…the Celtics would be infinitely more compelling to watch than LeBron and the Cav-nots.
August 22nd, 2007 at 5:08 pm
The NBA Finals from this past season were not just boring because of the Cavs. It takes two to tango and I believe their opponent deserves some of the blame for an incredibly damaging series to the NBA.
August 22nd, 2007 at 5:08 pm
Nice to hear some love for Ray on this thread. He will be missed more than many people realize.
He played hard & unselfishly and was nothing but positive about Seattle from the day he got here. Great all-star level player who loved to play big in the 4th quarter and IMO was a great teamate & great leader & was/is a true “professional”. I loved watching him play.
IMO the post that began this whole thread misses the point. Ray was loved and appreciated but once traded > people simply have moved on to being excited about KD. Even when GP was traded after a month when Ray was lighting it up people began to accept the trade quickly and by the end of the season no one was talking about GP - doesn’t mean we didn’t love, respect & appreciate him - but we simply had moved on & saw new opportunities for the team.
August 22nd, 2007 at 5:15 pm
Courtsense… As you can tell - I’m with you on your comments on Ray. I respect/admire Ray’s game a lot. I’ll miss him.
And the Sonics will miss him on the court this year big-time. this will likley be a 30-35 win team - maybe 25-30. But it was a trade that made sense from my perspecive for reasons I’ve outlined above. (11:24 am) But Ray Allen was nothing but good for the Seattle Sonics while he was with us.
August 22nd, 2007 at 5:18 pm
I liked Ray as a player. I make my comments about “rays guys” and his personality based on my conversations with the team. If you don’t buy it then you don’t buy it. You’ll notice I never make similar comments about Rashard and would in fact defend him in this instance. He made a mistake with the drunk driving. It was wrong and inexcusable. But he is not a bad guy.
Ray is not a bad guy either, but there is a reason everybody refers to him as professional and polished instead of “passionate and hungry” Ray is a super professional whose level of maturity and professionalism almost seperate him from his peers.
I think as a part of leadership on a veteran team he will be great. On a team where he was required to inspire and unite I don’t think he had the right attitude.
Ray’s humanitarian efforts are amazing and his foundation, and ability tio be a spokesperson for the game made it really hard for anybody to ever say a bad word about him in public, but in private I can’t find anybody who didn’t agree that he should have been moved.
I met just recently with someone who has close, close ties to the Sonics. When we talked about the Ray trade he said bluntly. “He had to go. He couldn’t lead this team.”
I’ll go back to my point though that there were a lot of good things about him here. Sometimes when someone or someplace is gone you justify by focusing on the weaknesses. I’m sure somewhere Ray is saying to somebody “It just always rained there anyway.” Its human nature.
August 22nd, 2007 at 5:59 pm
Brian, I really appreciate your insights on this thread.
I’m curious…when you say you spoke to someone who said “Ray had to go - he couldn’t lead this team” what is the sense you get regarding the nature of leadership in general, or specifically in Ray’s case - what is it that observers feel is necessary, or preferable, in terms of leading the Sonics?
I ask because I’m trying to understand what are those qualities - if Ray couldn’t, can Durant at some point be a leader? Can Green be a leader in the future? Can Collison be a leader now that Ray And Rashard are gone? It’s such a fascinating dynamic - please clarify if you can.
Thanks -
August 22nd, 2007 at 6:10 pm
I bring it up because it isn’t always or even often that the best player is necessarily the best leader. After all, who was the Sonics’ leader in ‘96? Certainly not GP or Kemp - maybe Nate, who was the 6th man.
What about some of the other veterans like Perkins (too quiet?) Hawk (intimidated by GP?) Schrempf (too annoying?) Brickowski? Wingate? That team also had a very strong Type A coach - was Karl the real leader?
What about MJ’s Bulls teams? Was MJ the leader? Or was it Big Chief Jackson? What about this year’s Spurs team? Most people would say Popovich - what about Duncan, or Ginobli, or Barry, or Horry?
What does it even mean to be a leader - if Ray wasn’t, then it’s more than being “polished and professional.” Durant has been praised for being an exceptionally hard worker and very prfoessional. Is that enough? What exactly are those qualities? Presti has often mentioned “accountability” as an important aspect of the culture he wants to build here - so does that mean that as great as Ray was, as professional as Ray was, he didn’t hold “his guys” accountable?
Any insights greatly appreciated -
August 22nd, 2007 at 6:43 pm
Awesome thread, Brian.
You know, I’d have to say I’d have done the same thing, telling everyone I knew simply out of sheer excitement.
What people forget a little bit now that we’re two months on is that we were excited at the time simply because something was happening. We’d had a management that had sat on their hands and watched this franchise slowly crumble for a number of years.
I knew it meant Ray was leaving, and that was sad, but suddenly there was actually progress, and, like you mentioned, hope. When something like that happens for the first time in years, you can’t shut up if you’re passionate about it. It’s impossible.
August 22nd, 2007 at 6:56 pm
Ray is too fragile to take it to the hoop on a regular basis, as a superstar should. Allen’ll fit in perfectly on the Celtics as the main outside threat, while Pierce and Garnett will dominate around the paint. I think all three of these guys are the top scoring options within their zones.
Lewis was gone after opting out, while Allen didn’t fit or belong with the Sonics anymore. Green, West, Thomas, two 1st rd picks and cap flexibility is fair value in return for our all-stars. Presti has done a fine job of rebuilding the Seattle Sonics around Kevin Durant.
August 22nd, 2007 at 6:56 pm
I don’t want this getting to be too much of an anti-ray thread and I don’t want to go into terrible detail about his leadership. As I said I think his intense sense of professionalism set him apart and for as many ways as that was good it also made it hard for him to relate to. There are a couple of stories that blow me away. The term “street cred” was used by a couple of people and I found it an interesting term. In many, many ways I think Ray related to the team owners and business people better than he related to the players, or even the fan.
Theres a two angles to this question. The first is how much do you miss Ray. The second is how much you really are invested in the players VS the uniform/franchise. I love these guys as much as anyone and when they depart I detach quickly, growing to love their replacement. IMO people overestimated the attachment to Ray and in general there are only a select few, really special players who you woudn’t lose your connection with weeks after they are traded.
August 22nd, 2007 at 7:11 pm
Elton Brand has been accused of using peformance-enhancing drugs by the Clipper’s management. The Clippers just drafted their power-forward of the future, while Brand is soon to be a free-agent. Brand further damaged the injury he sufferred last year, but he expects to fully recover within this season. Now would be the time for Presti to offer a package to obtain Brand.
Watson or Ridnour
Wilcox or Collison
Petro and Gelabale
Sun’s 1st rd picks
2nd rd pick
Trade Exception…
August 22nd, 2007 at 7:35 pm
Since when did professionalism and maturity become such dirty words?
So basically this whole “he can’t lead” stuff boils down to the fact that he doesn’t have street cred? Are you kidding me? Damn him for coming from a stable 2-parent family. How dare he spend his childhood as a military dependent with all that traveling and exposure to different cultures and stuff. Shame on him for getting something out of his education. And what’s up with not having a criminal record? No wonder he can’t lead — he obviously sets his standards too low.
Sarcasm aside, it does make you wonder what traits “Ray’s guys” display in contrast to the non-Ray guys. And how good can it make you feel about your team if guys can’t respect those values?
As to the two angles to the question. It’s not that cut and dried. Uniform comes first, but I’m not going to like someone just because he wears my team’s color if he’s a bad human being. And I’m not going to denigrade someone just because he’s no longer part of the team if he’s a good person. If Artest becomes a Sonic tomorrow, I’m still not going to like him. Same goes with Randolph and a number of other knuckleheads around the league. That’s why I consider it a gift when a player can be great both on and off the court.
August 22nd, 2007 at 7:50 pm
hoopster Says:
August 22nd, 2007 at 7:35 pm
“Damn him for coming from a stable 2-parent family. How dare he spend his childhood as a military dependent with all that traveling and exposure to different cultures and stuff. Shame on him for getting something out of his education. And what’s up with not having a criminal record? No wonder he can’t lead — he obviously sets his standards too low.”
Freakin’ A!
Ray or no Ray - that’s a great post, hoopster.
August 22nd, 2007 at 8:09 pm
“So basically this whole “he can’t lead” stuff boils down to the fact that he doesn’t have street cred?”
I’m not going to get into Ray specifically, but in general one of the great traits in leaders is the ability to relate to others and make the sum of the parts of something better than the individuals.
“Sarcasm aside, it does make you wonder what traits “Ray’s guys” display in contrast to the non-Ray guys. And how good can it make you feel about your team if guys can’t respect those values?”
ALso you have to wonder if you could actually pick out who ‘Ray’s guys’ are if the only thing you go by is what the mainstream media reports.
I don’t know that all the players didn’t respect Ray, but I at times really wonder how many of them were able to relate to him. Ray’s a star, everyone who watches him knows he’s a star and I wonder if those qualities which should make every fan want him on thier team doesn’t necessarily relate to those around him.
“That’s why I consider it a gift when a player can be great both on and off the court.”
I’m getting to the point where I’m so jaded that I really only believe that I know what players are like on the court. Off hte court we know what hte media lets us know, and well that’s about it.
August 22nd, 2007 at 8:38 pm
There is professional and there is corporate. If you took a guy who’d been a 30 year vet at HP and tried to put him in an internet startup he would be out of place.
As I said I don’t want this to be a big Ray-bashing thread. All I can say is that, like many things that are reported his relationships were really the way the media presented them. This is a game where the balance of energy and agression, passion and professionalism is important. There is absolutely nothing wrong with professionalism but when it hits a point where the balance between professionalism and passion is out of whack then it is a legitimate complaint.
If you had put Ray on last years Bulls and had him being the consumate pro and Ben Wallace bringing the fire and passion he would have been really special. However without someone like Ben, and with young players who needed to be related to there was a problem.
August 22nd, 2007 at 8:45 pm
I wish the next team leader lotsa luck in relating to the knuckleheads that were on last year’s roster… most of them are still here.
August 22nd, 2007 at 8:45 pm
scott i was going to say the same thing.it doesnt matter where anyone comes from its how one relates.ray held himself to a very high standard,quite admirable,really and for those that dont its hard to relate.then you throw in being so confident in your own talent,(however not quite enough talent of a jordan to carry the team himself,often enough)it becomes obvious that there will be a fair amount of people who cannot relat.
to anyone who is debating rashards dui and whether hes good or bad,please get off it!who is anyone to judge.its gotta be one of the biggest problems in the states(and certainly our standing in the world and the mess weve made of our relations),this holier-than-thou attitude that pervades the mind-set of this country.jesus whe’re still fighting the rights and wrong of everything,like you really think everything is so black and white.try living outside the country,try gaining a few years of experience and wisdom,try understanding tolerance,try looking outside the box and not listening to all the nattering idiots who tell you that you can regulate life so much that you’ll be safe,hahahahahaha.aint gonna happen.develope your own mind,please
August 22nd, 2007 at 9:16 pm
I hear you hoopster - right on.
BR > I love what you are doing & you often have great insights IMO. In this situation on reflections on Ray you get to say stuff like “I’ve got inside info. that you don’t etc. etc.” makes it hard to argue.
But I will on this one. The NBA is a very intense experience & environmnet with very young kids/young adults who live in an incredibly unique fish bowl for money, fame & pressure. So what happens??? > You often get guys (not all but many) who are….
1. pety, pety pety.
2. Imature, Imature, Imature
3. Ego/self centered & accustomed to special treatment
4. Out of touch with the reality of their game/talent etc.
(Almost every bench play thinks he should start &/or get more minutes. Almost every starter thinks they should get more minutes & touches etc.)
So what happens > teams lose - pressure builds, careers & salaries are on the line ….. and so someone says > “I don’t like Ray. I can’t relate to Ray”
Well - a lot of the Bulls hated playing with Jordan - admired him - loved that he helped them win - but didn’t like his competative drive that criticised them, made them practice to hard, he was aloof sometimes. Big deal.
My point is… so Ray can’t lead everyone > I say BIG DEAL. Some of these guys can’t be led because they struggle with handling all that is around them - so let’s blame the coach, the refs, the teamate etc. If Ray is to “Professional & Mature” than the rest I say that is the kind of guy I want around to raise the bar for everyone.
Ray has as much passion & drive & hunger for the game & to win as anyone.
You say you have inside info. that some players didn’t relate well to him - I can’t argue with that but I can say > Hey > Even the reasons you give for this dynamic make me say - “SO WHAT - THAT IS THEIR PROBLEM”. I’d rather have Ray around to try & help them grow up & mature & be a veteran professional. And maybe the whiners are the problem not Ray.
“He can’t lead this team.” - OK - someone’s opinion - but he sure could when they won 50+ games & had some playoff success 2 years ago. Losing & losers look for a scapegoat. Sounds like sour grapes - pety attitudes etc.. The last 2 years were disasters on the court - but don’t pin it on Ray & say he can’t lead the team > If Wally had gotten the right players & coach around Ray the winning would have taken care of that crap. You say he could be a great leader on a verteran team > if that is the case I say he can be a great leader if young guys want to learn what it means to be a real veteran.
Sorry BR > On this one I really think you are missing the boat - even if all your “Inside” sources are saying this crap - all it means is they are missing the boat too.
August 22nd, 2007 at 9:26 pm
Kevin Calabro used to describe how lucky he and the fans were to be able to watch one of the greatest shooters in history. I was always happy to watch Lewis and Allen shoot like it was nobody’s business. Both guys are gentlemen and I wish them all the best in the East. Times change in the NBA and new stars are born. Seattle just happens to be sportin the newest models in Durant and Green.
August 22nd, 2007 at 9:47 pm
I wonder if Watson messed Ridnour up during practice, but nobody knows what happened for certain. I think Watson felt bad for Ridnour and just gave him back his job. I’m not real comfortable with those guys runnin the show. Delonte West is more than capable of starting at the point from game 1. Scrap last management’s plans and usher in a new era in style. I dislike watching Ridnour struggle and believing I could walk in the building and perform the game more effectively. Delonte knocks down the shots Ridnour should be nailing and I’m sure Presti and PJ will be having West under a tight collar as a starter. Ridnour is a good NBA player, but either West or a youngsta outa next year’s lottery is the answer, imho.
August 22nd, 2007 at 9:59 pm
So unless a new owner were to accept a remodeling of Key Arena, the Sonics will likely be playing in the building until atleast 2010?
August 22nd, 2007 at 10:03 pm
[...]
Who was that guy? You know, the one who made all the big shots? »
[...]
August 22nd, 2007 at 10:50 pm
I advocated a Ray trade even before this one was made. I keep saying I like him as a player, but do not think he was the right guy to inspire a young team. You can talk about how his professionalism mirrored Duncan and Jordan, but c’mon, that’s Duncan and Jordan. He’s not at that level, few are.
My main point on this thread is that I think Ray was that “middle echelon” of stars who endeared himself to the city, but did not establish any lifetime bonds. He was traded and the fans moved on and I think that concept in itself is of just as much interest as his individual abilities. These guys shuffle teams all the time and people love the jerseys. The concept that fans hearts would be broken and it would affect interest this season just didn’t pan out. Largely because of Kevin Durant, partially because we just didn’t love him as much as we thought we did.
August 22nd, 2007 at 11:04 pm
Probably the wrong thread here, but didja hear the one about the minority owner from OKC who went and shot off his mouth about moving the team?
Turns out the Commish has ears out here in the NW - and the next thing ya know, that Okie’s gonna be writin’ the Commish a check for $250,000!
Ka-Ching!
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/sonics/2003849240_soni23.html
August 23rd, 2007 at 1:32 am
partially because we just didn’t love him as much as we thought we did
Stop saying “we”.
August 23rd, 2007 at 7:45 am
[...] ffin’s death causes re-evaluation of leaving school early Sonic Central Who was that guy who made all the big shots? SI.com Team USA in laugher over Venezuela but̷ [...]
August 23rd, 2007 at 8:05 am
The NBA Finals from this past season were not just boring because of the Cavs. It takes two to tango and I believe their opponent deserves some of the blame for an incredibly damaging series to the NBA.
- The Suns/Spurs series seemed pretty exciting…whereas I don’t think there was one Cavs series that was even worth watching (except for LeBron’s 48 special)
How can you possible say that knowing entering a car after having 7 or more drink isn’t sign of immature person? He should have known better, he should be a quote “good person” and taken a cab home. But he wasn’t and he got caught and potential could have killed someone.
- So wait…a kid from Houston who came to this city where he knew no one at the age of 18. Was given millions of dollars to play a game and this one incedent of “immaturity”…one that is done by 95% of the people in this area at least once…some how makes him so he can’t be classified as a good person?
Schrempf (too annoying?)
- LOL…or maybe it was cause the team leader wasn’t allowed to get called for an illegal defense every game and then run up to the ref with his hands out…
Elton Brand has been accused of using peformance-enhancing drugs by the Clipper’s management.
- What?!?!
August 23rd, 2007 at 8:07 am
[...] chair GM Griffin’s death causes re-evaluation of leaving school early Sonic Central Who was that guy who made all the big shots? SI.com Team USA in laugher over Venezuela but… NBA.com O [...]
August 23rd, 2007 at 8:52 am
BR says…”The concept that fans hearts would be broken and it would affect interest this season just didn’t pan out. Largely because of Kevin Durant, partially because we just didn’t love him as much as we thought we did.”
Agree: But I’d say it is 95% KD & 5% RA not having lifetimes bonds etc. (Not a big surprise after only 4 years) Along with the overall reality that I think BR mentioned earlier - for most hard-core fans (Like ones who hang out on a blog like this!) loyalty is tied to the team more than any individual player.
Agree: With Dick T. - “We” is not the right word here
August 23rd, 2007 at 8:59 am
“partially because we just didn’t love him as much as we thought we did.
I think the spirited defense of Ray on this thread kind of refutes that, don’t you think? And to do it in a well that you chose to poison says something. So, yes, there are fans who do “love” him. To imply that your opinion/feelings are universally accepted seems rather arrogant.
August 23rd, 2007 at 9:18 am
The real reality of the situation is that the minute we drafted KD this had to become his team for the hope of long term success. Teams who draft guys to be thier franchise players and have them become successful have 1 of 2 things happen, they have thier former stars accept the backseat to the new face of the franchise or they deal them away.
Could Ray have taken a backseat to Durant? I don’t know for sure but my gut instinct tells me he couldn’t have.
I wish Ray hte best in Boston. Honestly, however I would have been less interested in this season with Lewis, Allen and Durant than I am now.
August 23rd, 2007 at 10:40 am
I find it really hard to say anything bad about Ray Allen. Guy is a class act. If attacking him now helps you deal with his departure…….so be it.
Are people really discussing “what if” he was still here? “I don’t think” he would take a backseat to Durant. If these are the types of speculative arguments in the negative column on Ray Allen…..then he is in an ok place.
Its really easy to create negativity. Ask Steve Kelley.
Ray Allen was never the problem with this team. To somehow try to point the finger at him now is ridiculous.
August 23rd, 2007 at 10:58 am
For the record, I never want the highest payed player on the team to be someone who isn’t held accountable for their defense.
On another topic - Alex Chan: You should really take a deeper look at yourself; your strange ideas of what makes a “bad person” and your even stranger habit of incessantly defending people like Eddie Griffin because he’s “young”. They’re all young.
I’d bet you’ve done worse than reckless driving, but of course no one would be interested in your mistakes. Get over yourself.
August 23rd, 2007 at 11:05 am
Scott and I talking this morning and the comparison I came up with is this. Look at Jordan’s final couple of years in Washington.
Jordans schtick did not go over nearly as well when he was reduced from god status to merely a very, very good player and not winning. He proved to be a detraction to the young players rather than an asset just because, by his very nature he was not a guy who could sit back and let others step into roles.
Think about his last ycouple of years. Didn’t he play with Rip Hamilton? Was Rip a bad guy because he chaffed a little bit at Jordan? Not at all. It wasn’t either guys fault, it just wasn’t a good fit for a young team looking to develop their guys.
August 23rd, 2007 at 11:17 am
“partially because we just didn’t love him as much as we thought we did.”
- Or….maybe its just because everyone realizes it was a business decision. For as loved as GP was within the city the fact he got traded didn’t last all that long…
Could Ray have taken a backseat to Durant? I don’t know for sure but my gut instinct tells me he couldn’t have.
- This is all speculation…and being that he is now taking a 3rd bannana role with Boston I don’t see why you are so sure. Even better…why should Durant be the first banana from day one?
Jordans schtick did not go over nearly as well when he was reduced from god status to merely a very, very good player and not winning. He proved to be a detraction to the young players rather than an asset just because, by his very nature he was not a guy who could sit back and let others step into roles.
- Come on now…you really think the Allen situation and the Jordan situation are comparable? I don’t even see these being in the same ballpark.
August 23rd, 2007 at 11:19 am
Does Ray Allen have the same mind game mentality that Jordan did/does? Depending on who you ask or your view…..Jordan was kind of a c*ck to some of his teammates. Read “The Jordan Rules”? Different situation I think.
Nobody knows what Allen’s effect would have been on the young players. We never had Durant/Green type young talent……alongside Ray. All speculation. You can just as easily go the other direction and say “Ray would have been the best mentor ever!”, and neither of us can be right or wrong.
Hes gone. Moving on.
August 23rd, 2007 at 11:20 am
To comment further…the reason Jordan’s “schtick” didn’t go over as well with his teammates was because he wasn’t very good…Allen is still a top SG in the leauge…waaaaaaaay different.
On top of that…Hamilton wasn’t someone with the pedigree to be considered “equal” to Durant…just different situations. Why isn’t this situation similar to Shaq and Wade? (or AI/’Mello) Shaq still wants to be the man and yet they seem to get along fine. It seems like almost every good player is willing to defer when the player is capable.
August 23rd, 2007 at 11:22 am
I agree with Menace. Although I would say that to say that Durant’s first year would not have been easier with Allen around than without him around seems a bit strange. Its going to be much tougher to be the only scoring option on the entire team…
Really, this trade cannot be assessed until we see how Presti uses the cap space. If he uses the cap space incorrectly then I do not feel like the Sonics came away a clear winner (unless Green becomes an All-Star, which I don’t see yet)
August 23rd, 2007 at 11:24 am
I would recommend that people also read the book When Nothing Else Matters about Jordan’s years in Washington. Personally, it is pretty obvious that the writer came in with an agenda to pull Jordan down off his pedestal, but there are some interesting insights into the team’s dynamics. Ive never heard of Ray being similar to the Jordan depicted in that book
August 23rd, 2007 at 11:25 am
IMO. Its just weak to talk down players on their way out. You cheered for them when they were part of your team. Now they are somewhere else and the negatives come center stage? Weak. Sort of spineless. Ray Allen’s positives will always outway any negatives. The guy was a class act.
Same with Rashard. I wish them both the best.
August 23rd, 2007 at 11:27 am
Balloholic, I don’t think I ever said Thomas was a bad guy; he made a tremendous mistake. You obviously don’t want to hear about his mistakes. Perhaps you should direct your comments about Rashard’s guilty plea to reckless driving to McWalter. I hope you are not admitting that you have done something worse than reckless driving because that would constitute a felony. I would comment further on your post but I’ll heed your wisdom and “take a deeper look into myself.”
August 23rd, 2007 at 11:35 am
one that is done by 95% of the people in this area at least once
Where the hell did you get those numbers, Myk? Maybe it’s 95% of the people that YOU hang out with? Lol
-*-*-*-
Honestly, however I would have been less interested in this season with Lewis, Allen and Durant than I am now.
It’s not like it was an either/or scenario.
If I were GM, I woulda…
Drafted Durant (big win).
Sweeten the pot to get Atlanta’s pick by tossing in Petro (so long Luke, hello Acie).
Move Wilcox (any number of scenarios would do).
Do the Lewis S&T as well as the Thomas trade.
That’s a team that I would have found much more interesting than the current one that will get destroyed on a regular basis this coming season. Still PLENTY of youth on the team, thus it’s still a rebuild. Also, I think Durant’s development of an all-around, unselfish game would have been much easier to accomplish playing next to another star. I disagree with Scott (and others) who think Ray wouldn’t have allowed himself to become a second option to Durant.
Getting rid of the two best players from last season was the easy thing to do. The major malcontents and dopes remain (sans Fortson). Let’s see Presti try to move some of them bad apples.
That said, I’m still a fan, have accepted the new direction (as a fan, do I really have a choice not to?), am anxious to see how the current team plays and hope they achieve more than I think they’re capable of. If the Durant-Green duo plays awesome together and leads the team to a nice number of wins, I’ll be giving Presti a huge thumbs up for making the trade.
I love Ray and hope the Celtics make the finals. I’ll miss him.
I love the Sonics and hope they do well (or else suck bad, win the lottery and draft Derrick Rose). The feelings of the fan aren’t nearly as black & white as Brian tries to paint them.
August 23rd, 2007 at 11:40 am
No Alex, I don’t want to hear about other people’s mistakes.
“I hope you are not admitting that you have done something worse than reckless driving because that would constitute a felony”
I’ve never seen anyone so eager to cast judgment. Weirdo.
August 23rd, 2007 at 11:54 am
At the risk of reinforcing accusations that I am a conspiracy theorist, allow me to point out that just because trading Ray did not reduce Seattle fans’ interest in the Sonics as much as predicted, does not mean that it was not a major resaon why the Oklahoma ownership group did not trade Ray.
I agree with Brian’s statement that “BR says…”The concept that fans hearts would be broken and it would affect interest this season just didn’t pan out.” In other words, dumping Ray & Rashard may not have diminished fan interest as much as intended, if, as I suspect, that is the reason why Ray was traded in a rush for less than his actual value.
Fortunately, as Brian R and JJ point out, the results were different than predicted because of other dynamics, such as ping balls and the hysterics of Orlando’s GM, and particularly the most dynamic of individuals, the ebullient Mr. Durant. However, just because the results were good does not mean that the ownership made some of these moves with ill intent towards Seattle fans.
Note that this is an expression of a suspicion, not a reasoned opinion. There is no way to prove this other than straight talk from the owners or some other demonstration of their true intent. I am not convinced that my own argument is correct, but I consider it to be a possibility.
August 23rd, 2007 at 12:00 pm
Where the hell did you get those numbers, Myk? Maybe it’s 95% of the people that YOU hang out with? Lol
- Granted 95% is a high number…but being that some people can hit the “legal limit” at one or two drinks I would imagine that many of us have driven home after 3 glasses of wine at a dinner or party…as Menace said…there is a reason why they don’t talk about how he did during his field sobriety test
August 23rd, 2007 at 12:04 pm
Many of us are smart enough not to drive recklessly after three glasses of wine, also.
August 23rd, 2007 at 12:09 pm
I am not convinced that my own argument is correct, but I consider it to be a possibility.
I consider it a possibility as well, Rock. I just don’t talk about it much, lest I be labeled “ignorant” or “naive” by the majority. Since the draft, this place has become a bit of a groupthink tank. AK’s banning hasn’t helped matters, imo. I appreciate reading more diversity of opinions.
August 23rd, 2007 at 12:13 pm
“I am not convinced that my own argument is correct, but I consider it to be a possibility.”
The one problem that I continually have with your theory is I don’t know how they could have gotten Presti to go along with it unless he felt it was the right move to make as well. I understand that they are his boss, but in the GM game you don’t get to tell your next employer to completely disreguard your first two moves as ’something they told me to do’ and continue to work.
If this doesn’t work out for Sam he doesn’t just get another job, he doesn’t have the proven track record of success for that.
August 23rd, 2007 at 12:31 pm
I consider it a possibility as well, Rock. I just don’t talk about it much, lest I be labeled “ignorant” or “naive” by the majority. Since the draft, this place has become a bit of a groupthink tank. AK’s banning hasn’t helped matters, imo. I appreciate reading more diversity of opinions.
- What group am I in??
August 23rd, 2007 at 12:36 pm
As much as I like USS Mariner the diversity of opinions is the main reason I support this site more than their site…the other site I feel like I am being dictated too…
August 23rd, 2007 at 12:41 pm
Very interesting thread on this - lots of good comments - thanks all.
Just one more time - I agree with Menace (11:25 am comment) & several others on Ray. Much of the Ray stuff started by the comment that The trade was good because Ray was not going to be a good fit for this team as a leader - wrong attitude - players could not relate to him etc.
I just disagree - Ray was great on & off the court. Passionate - professional - mature - competative - team/oriented.
He’s gone - people are accepting it for different reasons at different levels > but he was VERY popular, appreciated and respected by Seattle Hoops fans as a player & person. And he earned that.
When the C’s come the the KEY this year I predict a very warm welcome for RA. I’ll be there giving him a Standing O.
August 23rd, 2007 at 12:59 pm
Why are some people throwing Ray Allen under the bus?
On that issue, Menace, Myk, and Dick Tate all made very good points about how it isn’t right for any of us to diminish Allen’s contributions by slamming him after his departure.
Also, I’m shocked at the misuse of the pronoun “we” within some harsh comments that were made about Allen. It’s not fair for anybody to write on behalf of the group.
Finally, Allen may have easily coexisted with Kevin Durant. Since Allen has deferred to high-scoring small forwards like Rashard Lewis and Glenn Robinson in the past, he should’ve had no trouble adjusting to the arrival of Kevin Durant.
August 23rd, 2007 at 1:17 pm
“On that issue, Menace, Myk, and Dick Tate all made very good points about how it isn’t right for any of us to diminish Allen’s contributions by slamming him after his departure.”
I would say that a few people are “throwing him under the bus”, but some people, like myself, have long believed that a change was necessary.
Anyone who saw Ray Allen in the ‘05 playoffs knows that he has the passion and drive to do damn near anything on the court. I also think being on those poorly built Sonics teams all those years didn’t allow him the best opportunity to shine.
That being said, I always hoped they could parlay his insane offensive skills for another player that coud help us more either in the middle or on the perimeter,
August 23rd, 2007 at 1:25 pm
Ray was a true professional…At times would remind me of JORDAN..but we cant have our number 1 scorer be a jump shooter.
BTW in NBA2K7 Ray-Ray might as well have been Jordan…at times i would score over 120 points on the hardest setting against some stiff competition.
While blowing my opponents mind on how good ray was in the game.(althought he didnt have the highest ratings)
August 23rd, 2007 at 1:32 pm
Balloholic….
Your point is well taken but I think you are missing the main issue/thought on this thread.
I also support the trade > but I dispute the postion that is stated above that Ray was a problematic leader who was not a good fit for the team because some players could not relate to him etc. - and in addition that Sonics fan did not really appreicate or “Love” Ray when it was said about sonics fans at the very beginning….
“I think it is fair to say that they had made up their mind about Ray. They did not love him enough.”
August 23rd, 2007 at 1:38 pm
Okay, I see your point, JJ.
August 23rd, 2007 at 1:44 pm
I agree with both J.J. and Balloholic, too.
August 23rd, 2007 at 1:50 pm
The part about having our minds made up bothered me quite a bit. Are we expected to discuss the trade all summer long, especially during this dead summer period? Let’s talk again twenty games or so into the season.
August 23rd, 2007 at 3:04 pm
“At the time of the trade I stated that, while there would be a blow to fan interest it was clear that the tandem of Ray Allen and Rashard Lewis had never captured the imagination of this city the way that Shawn Kemp and Gary Payton had. While Allen was respected and generally liked, he was not loved.
While fans have not yet decided that they love this team I think it is fair to say that they had made up their mind about Ray. They did not love him enough. ”
Lennie. Slick. Gus Williams. Dennis Johnson. Jack Sikma. Downtown Freddie Brown. Dale Ellis. Tom Chambers. The X-man. Nate. GP. Kemp. Perkins. Ray. Ra.
A short list of some of the stars and fan faves over the years off the top of my head. Where does Ray fall in that list? And where will he be 5-10 years from now looking back at the Sonics? In my mind, he’s about where Dale Ellis stands. By this I mean Ellis was a professional who lit up the scoreboard and generated a strong following, but wasn’t the guy who inspired sheer passion and euphoria among the fans. When we look at the greats of Sonics basketball, Ray is going to fall somewhere toward the bottom of that list. As mentioned, I think this has a great deal to do with the success that his teams had while he was here. I’m not putting that on Ray–it’s just a fact that there was only one year of any playoff glory. It has something to do with his demeanor/personality as well. I mean, the man is a machine in terms of his dedication, work ethic, commitment, overall professionalism. He is a great model and set a great (nearly impossible) standard. Yet as much as I admire him, and thought he was always a tremendous asset to the team, I never wanted to BE Ray. And he wasn’t here long enough to become synonymous with Sonic’s basketball. So yeah, from my perspective, he wasn’t loved enough–enough for fans to turn away from the team when he was traded, that is. Whether Ray had his strong and weak points is irrelevent–it goes without saying, everybody does. Ray will be missed, but he will quickly become an afterthought, because sports fans do not like to live in the past–unless the past was filled with glory. We live vicariously through the ups and downs of our team, and with Ray, there just weren’t enough emotional highs for long enough for him to become beloved. IMO.
I wish Ray all the best and think Boston will embrace him–because he is the real deal and brings so much to admire, and because he is positioned for success there in a way he never has been in his career. But I am excited for the future, not bitter about the past, and I think most Seattle sports fans feel the same.
August 23rd, 2007 at 3:17 pm
Lennie. Slick. Gus Williams. Dennis Johnson. Jack Sikma. Downtown Freddie Brown. Dale Ellis. Tom Chambers. The X-man. Nate. GP. Kemp. Perkins. Ray. Ra.
- Didn’t all of these people play more than 3.5 seasons with the Sonics?? I mean isnt that the other issue…its not like Ray was really here all that long in the first place. I doubt TMac is considered a great Toronto Raptor…
August 23rd, 2007 at 3:50 pm
paul wont be 3rd option. he very well may be the leading scorer still. all of the big 3 will have a role. kg is gonna be the #1 man overall cuz he has been mvp and his role is most important as the dominant versatile 7 footer. but paul as the slasher and ray as the smooth shooter but both can do it allaround, passing, driving, paul posts up more and goes to the hoop more but can shoot too, and ray is the smooth shooter and dominates the perimiter/midrange more but can also go to the hoop. both can pass, all 3 can pass. all 3 are unselfish. all 3 been top 10 for mvp. all 3 are team players, highly efficient. leaders. all 3 are very important. no one is “third on the totem pole”……. that wont even be a thought i bet. these guys dont care about that, they will be winning and all 3 are extremely important in their role for that. its a perfect match in every way on the court and off of it. theyre gonna have a great team for the next 4 or 5 years with those 3. ray allen, paul pierce and kevin garnett. i cant believe how perfect that trio complements each other. on the court, character wise, leadership, clutch, burden, everything. its amazing.
August 23rd, 2007 at 3:54 pm
From the original post:
While Allen was respected and generally liked, he was not loved.
Time seems to be bearing out this theory as fans have basically not mentioned Allen in a month.
Is this opinion supposed to represent the entire fan base overall or just the X-dozen die-hard posters who inhabit a Sonics forum in August?
August 23rd, 2007 at 4:06 pm
ray was a great leader when we won 52 games (and probably woulda knocked off the champion spurs if rashard played the series and if ray’s shot pulled a fisher instead of rimming out so we coulda gave em a beatdown in game 7)……… even in terms of leadership though and personality boston’s trio is perfect. ray with the professionalism, the cool, smooth, quiet assasin leadership….. kg with the hunger and passion and intensity leadership…… and paul pierce with the keep it light, likeable, humorous have fun while kickin a$$ leadership……… its so amazing. plus all 3 are in the same phase of their career to finish off their careers together these next 5 (or more) years. and all 3 are hungry as hell for a ring and are determined to get it. thats their initiative all on the same page, cuz theyve all took teams to conference finals (and division titles/50+ wins all that crap) and been close to gettin to the finals but none have made it to the finals and NEED to get there and NEED TO GET THAT RING. im DEFINITELY rooting for em, thats for sure. theyre gonna be a SPECIAL team for these next 4 or 5 years. im getting leaguepass and going to the game for ray’s return to watch em, thats for DANG SURE.
August 23rd, 2007 at 4:15 pm
HEY BRIAN. what if instead of last years bulls with ben wallace you put him on this years celtics with kevin garnett? that would be pretty perfect huh? paul pierce on top of that with his style. perfect, huh?!?!?!?
league pass!
August 23rd, 2007 at 4:28 pm
Dick - very good question.
Casual Fan - you say some excellent points about Ray. You also say…
“So yeah, from my perspective, he wasn’t loved enough–enough for fans to turn away from the team when he was traded”
I would suggest that no Sonics was loved more than GP - but I doubt many fans turned away from the Sonics following his trade. I would not make sticking with the Sonics as a fan a baromotor for how much we love, respect or appreciate a player after they are traded. The Team is almost bigger than any individual player for any stong fan.
That aside - I here you in all your affirmation about Ray as a player & person. We will miss him. I agree with you too - He was not here long enough or involved in enough playoff success to be up there with the GP, Nate M., Kemp, & some others > but for those like myself who were around when he was He will be warmly remembered as a wonderful player to watch and a guy who came in and played hard & with great heart during a time when the team had some real struggles that limited their success. I think many of us will always remember him for the way he partnered with Nate M. & others to lead the Sonics to a great season 2 years ago in Nate’s final season as the Sonics coach & in a season that established Nate as an excellent coach.
August 23rd, 2007 at 5:25 pm
“On draft day Sonics fans panicked. The consensus amongst reporters, radio announcers, and fans was that the loss of Ray Allen was a devastating blow to fan interest and the teams long term future here in Seattle.”
JJ said, “I would not make sticking with the Sonics as a fan a baromotor for how much we love, respect or appreciate a player after they are traded.”
I hear ya JJ. I’m just agreeing with Brian that Sonics-Ray-Ra=apathy=Sonics leave does not compute. Interest in the Sonics, I think, will be every bit as high, due in part, ironically, to the attention that has been given the team BECAUSE of the trade (and Durant! and all the other moves). I agree with Brian’s estimate that the impact of losing Ray was way overstated.
August 23rd, 2007 at 5:39 pm
I value a player’s worth from their efforts and results on the offensive and defensive ends of the court. If your’re a liability on defense, then the player is not in the upper-tier of superstars. The Sonics demonstrated the difficulty of trying to be successful with the team built around Allen and Lewis. Let the Magic and Celtics empty their vaults for these scorers. Ray will be able to fulfill his role in Boston and Lewis will do fine Orlando. I’d rather not have those “superstars” demonstrating how to play defense on an impressionable youngsta like Durant. KD needed his boy Green to kick it with and they both needed a point guard like West to facilitate success.
August 23rd, 2007 at 6:50 pm
“I would say that a few people are “throwing him under the bus”, but some people, like myself, have long believed that a change was necessary.”
ONe thing that is pretty interesting about the way this whole scenerio played out is back in late march I first made the comment that I thought if we got a top two pick we’d end up dealing Ray within a month of getting the pick. I’d gone so far as to say that if Seattle and Boston got the first two picks they’d be in a great position to deal Ray and Paul for each other.
You guys may think that what I’m saying is throwing Ray under the bus or after the fact thinking, ask anyone who talked to me about it and I’m not saying anything new.
August 23rd, 2007 at 9:20 pm
Scott, I very clearly remember you saying that. I also understand what Dick Tate,R.P., and JJ are saying. It was the same thing on the PI board with my favorite player of all time, GP.
August 23rd, 2007 at 9:20 pm
Scott, I very clearly remember you saying that. I also understand what Dick Tate,R.P., and JJ are saying. It was the same thing on the PI board with my favorite player of all time, GP.
August 23rd, 2007 at 9:20 pm
Scott, I very clearly remember you saying that. I also understand what Dick Tate,R.P., and JJ are saying. It was the same thing on the PI board with my favorite player of all time, GP.
August 23rd, 2007 at 10:21 pm
I just don’t like Bostons lack of depth nor the redundancy of Pierce and Allen. Who is their defensive stopper? They will be interesting and it is possible that Garnetts passion will balance Rays coolness prefectly, but it will take some special performances from a yet undetermined cast.
August 23rd, 2007 at 10:22 pm
And I think the trade sending RA to Boston makes sense for Seattle & I’m hopeful JG will be a stud - Just expressing my thoughts on Ray as a player & teamate & leader etc. -
August 23rd, 2007 at 11:46 pm
I think it was good for Boston too. The Sonics needed to plan ahead. Boston needed to recapture it’s fanbase. I can’t imagine what it would be like to be a Celtics fan going into this season. Going from a terrible team, to a terrible team surrounding Pierce, Allen, and MF’n KG! Shit, think of how optimistic people on here are about R Swift.
August 24th, 2007 at 7:41 am
As it appeared to me, the ulterior motive for all of Presti’s moves was for Oklahoma City to receive a competitive team after the owners make their move out of Seattle.
A team with Ray Allen, Rashard Lewis, and Durant would probably reel off more wins next season than what we have now. While this is absolutely short-sighted, long-term success has no relevance to us if the Sonics make the move to Oklahoma when they become good. While I wish it were otherwise, I feel that the Sonics need to make their biggest splash now to keep them in Seattle, not 3 years from now. No matter what the current teams potential is currently, we may never see it here. A win now philosophy won’t get us far, but it might keep the team in the same place geographically.
If the Sonics ultimately stay in Seattle, I’ll be happy with Presti’s moves as they have created a great potential future. But if the Sonics do move, I’ll see the moves as the preparation of a brilliant OKC team.
Check out the Oklahoman take on this:
http://newsok.com/article/3089321/
August 24th, 2007 at 8:03 am
I cringe when I read Brian’s ideas on what makes a leader.
Street cred?
This is the same guy that wanted to trade Ray Allen for Stephon Marbury. Starbury has plenty of street cred but does anyone other than Brian think that Marbury would make a better leader???
August 24th, 2007 at 8:49 am
“I cringe when I read Brian’s ideas on what makes a leader.
Street cred?
Oh come on Dick — think of the heights Stephen Jackson would have beeen able to take this team. Leadership in spades!
August 24th, 2007 at 8:50 am
DT > Amen to you on this one.
Trashing Ray’s leadership, passion, attitude, relations with other players etc. is just way off base IMO. Also off base to say Sonics fans did not like or love Ray much - or enough - or whatever that means.
This has been a good discussion - probably finishing up - thanks all.
August 24th, 2007 at 9:06 am
“I cringe when I read Brian’s ideas on what makes a leader.
Street cred?
This is the same guy that wanted to trade Ray Allen for Stephon Marbury. Starbury has plenty of street cred but does anyone other than Brian think that Marbury would make a better leader???”
Unlike Stephon Marbury, Dick Tate, you’ll never watch Ray Allen declare that he’ll finish out his basketball career in Italy, indirectly defend dogfighting by standing up for Michael Vick, and make incestuous comments about his own sister.
Why’s that?
“It’s ’cause he ain’t teh leader!1!1!1!1!”
Sarcasm aside, I’m currently wearing a pair of Cyclone II shoes that I bought for $15.00 from Steve & Barry’s.
August 24th, 2007 at 9:46 am
Dick - You can like it or not like it but part of leadership is relating to the troops. Don’t act like I’m sitting here saying “street cred” is the be all end all issue of leadership. Read my comments for cripes sake I’m stating that there are positive and negative attributes to everybody. Don’t think that Ray was a saint because the papers never said a bad word about him and his leadership was praised by broadcasters. That says a lot about his leadership, but also about his relationship with media and broadcasters. He’s smooth and polished but that does not make him without fault.
Leasdership is a complicated issue and there is no cookie cutter method of describing it. I read these posts and people are saying “anybody who disputes Ray Allen’s leadership has a huge ego because he was a team player blah blah blah” and I just cringe. Ray’s ego is bigger than ANYBODY on that team. It is huge and that is OK because for a ballplayer an ego and confidence are tied together and are important. he was a team player because he wanted to take the big shots, not because he wanted to share the big shots. During the 52 win season that worked but when the team loses and you’re still having the ego and demanding the shots how does that make you a team player when the whole point of the franchise right now is to get shots for some of the younger guys?
August 24th, 2007 at 11:18 am
Maybe you like Ray Allen and think he’s a great leader, maybe you don’t. I don’t think it’s Brian’s responsibility to write what we all want to hear, or anything outside of his own opinion.
August 24th, 2007 at 11:49 am
Look Brian, you obviously have an axe to grind with Ray. And tha’s fine — it’s certainly your right. All those of us arguing with you are asking, is that you don’t declare it as our axe. You started the thread with the premise that “we” fans didn’t care enough about him. Well, obviously some of us do.
You condemn him for lack of leadership, yet you use deliberately vague terms. It’s what you “hear” from “players” you refuse to name, a “sense” you refuse to identify; people you call “Ray’s guys” yet refuse to say who or what makes them such, etc. Sorry, but knowing the source of all this “information” makes a big difference in how much credence I give it.
You opened up a can of worms, not once, but twice and then you act all hot and bothered when not everybody bows down to your superior knowledge. You brush off Ray’s good reputation as him being smooth and polished with the media, but I have to tell you, I’ve been involved in one way or another, with the “mainstream media” my whole adult life (no, I’ve never covered the Sonics) and I can assure you that no matter how polished someone is, the media can always spot a poser. They might not necessarily rat him out publicly, but they know what they’re dealing with. And my “sources’, people who have spent time in the locker room, and have had extensive interaction with Ray and the others tell me he’s a stand-up guy. This is all off the record, with nothing to gain or lose on their part, and no hidden agendas that I’m aware of. No one’s saying he’s perfect or ready for sainthood, they’re just telling me that from their perspective he’s never been the problem. Make of that what you will.
August 24th, 2007 at 12:33 pm
“No one’s saying he’s perfect or ready for sainthood, they’re just telling me that from their perspective he’s never been the problem.”
I don’t think Brian’s saying he’s the problem either, at least my impression of what Brian’s said (and one which I tend to agree with) is that he could have become part of the problem with the addition of a new face of the franchise.
The great thing about being the face of a team like the Sonics is that the reporters really can’t demean you too badly, or they don’t get the access to the star of the team.
I think people jump too much on the semantics of an article like this, the reality is that you don’t turn on sports radio two months after the deal and hear people commenting on Ray Allen, other than really to wish him well. He wasn’t in this town long enough (or have near the success) to create that kind of vitrol needed to have the long lasting negative commentary. There’s a portion of people who really like Ray, I can count at least three site writers among that group, there’s at least 3 of us who thought he had to go the minute we got the pick to get Durant and there’s a couple who just want to see the team win. Oddly, I think I’m easier to place in that grouping than Brian is.
August 24th, 2007 at 2:03 pm
“The great thing about being the face of a team like the Sonics is that the reporters really can’t demean you too badly, or they don’t get the access to the star of the team. ”
Publicly, perhaps. But my point was that my information came from private conversations, not from published reports. And in private, reporters demean plenty. So the fact that they spoke well of him in private says a lot to me.
August 24th, 2007 at 2:11 pm
I didn’t see a single mention on this site about Ray in a month. Nor have I heard his name on the radio. Thats what I’m pointing out. I said that people “didn’t love him enough”, not that they hated him. He was a great player, a good part of this community and he moved on. Nobody seems like they’re still heartbroken, and other than this thread, where I BROUGHT IT UP I don’t see some big outcry of fans saying “I can’t watch this team without Ray” or “I wonder what it would have been like with Ray?” I just think people have moved on.
One great point made in this thread is that he was only here for 3.5 years so what is his legacy really. I don’t know what my axe is when I say that he’s not perfect and compare him to Jordan. Seems like a compliment to me.
Ray basically has said “My time in Seattle feels like a blur. It was so far away from everything, I felt out of touch” Blah blah blah.
I don’t hold it against him. His comments don’t diminish his presence here in Seattle. Its a criticism that, now that he’s gone he can make and its somewhat valid. Seattle is far away from things and really he is an east coast guy. I don’t know why I can’t make a commenta about him without it being seen as an attack.
Like I said we went a month wihtout a single “what about Ray, why did we trade him” post and that was my point.
August 24th, 2007 at 2:12 pm
“I value a player’s worth from their efforts and results on the offensive and defensive ends of the court. If your’re a liability on defense, then the player is not in the upper-tier of superstars.”
Dirk……..Nash……..
August 24th, 2007 at 2:13 pm
[i]You opened up a can of worms, not once, but twice [/i]
Funny, I thought I opened up a conversation that was somewhat interesting which is the point of this blog…
August 24th, 2007 at 2:24 pm
“I don’t think Brian’s saying he’s the problem either, at least my impression of what Brian’s said (and one which I tend to agree with) is that he could have become part of the problem with the addition of a new face of the franchise.”
Could have been a part of the problem? Sure if you look at things from a glass half empty perspective. Could have been easily been lethal combination too. Just seems like a negative view all based on unfounded speculation. Besides Bruce Bowen and George Karl has Ray Allen ever had a problem with anyone?
I’m fine with the trade too. I was a little shocked at first, but in the longrun it was the right move.
You can see how it can be construed that some people are slamming Ray on his way out. I completely understand what is being said. But besides “I think”, IMO there isn’t any evidence to suggest Ray would be a negative influence/teammate.
August 24th, 2007 at 2:37 pm
“Besides Bruce Bowen and George Karl has Ray Allen ever had a problem with anyone?”
Glenn Robinson, Sam Cassell come to mind. As does Keyon Dooling.
“Could have been a part of the problem? Sure if you look at things from a glass half empty perspective. Could have been easily been lethal combination too. Just seems like a negative view all based on unfounded speculation.”
I had this conversation with a buddy of mine 3 weeks before the draft and told him this was all coming and when he asked why all I could say to him was ‘Can you imagine Sam Presti asking Ray Allen to take a backseat to Kevin Durant’. His reply was simple, ‘why would Durant take a back seat to Ray?’ My answer was simple again ‘This is Durants team from the day we draft him’.
In the human psyche there’s a huge difference between being told ‘you’re being brought in to help the rookie take this team somewhere’ from ‘it’s his team, you’re just along fro the ride’.
August 24th, 2007 at 2:37 pm
I’m still trying to figure out how I “trash” rays leadership here by saying that I didn’t think he was a great fit for a bunch of young guys.
I love Hoopster: “I can’t take your statements seriously because your info comes from unnamed sources. My unnamed media sources say hes a great guy.”
I NEVER advocated trading Ray for Marbury so don’t quote me on that. Marbury is exactly the type of guy that I think Ray would have been a good leader for. A veteran guy who’s biggest faults are a lack of professionalism anda big contract. If we could have picked up Marbury last year and had Ray as the leader then he would have functioned really differently. Trading crap for Marbury and assembling him with Ray, Rashard, and at top 12 pick is completely different than a situation where you have committed to youth around Durant and you are asking Ray to fit into the plan.
If we’d traded our crap and any youth at all for Steph, and then moved Ray then that plan would suck as well. I’ve always been very against the whole “blow it up and go young” theory and I’m suprised at, now that it’s happened, how it has gotten my own interest level up. Having Kevin Durant is obviously huge. It’s a different rebuilding process than trying to line guys behind say “Jason Richardson”. Its been a shift in attitude for me because if you’d asked me 2 years ago how I would feel about trading Ray Allen for a #5 pick in the draft I would have been totally opposed to it.
Get my damn point when talking about Ray as a player. There are circumstances where people are better fits and there are circumstances where worse fits. As we’ve gone into the losing cycle and rebuilding I think Ray has become a worse fit. Thats not saying hes a terrible guy, player, or leader. Management clearly agreed.
August 24th, 2007 at 2:41 pm
Leadership comes in different ways. Some people lead by example. Some are cheerleader types, real rah rah rah. Brian is right there isn’t a cookie cutter mold. Some people are born leaders…….others are not and thats ok. With that said, there is bound to be a difference of opinion about whether Ray Allen was a good leader or not.
With that said who says the best player on the team needs to be the leader? Is the QB always the captain? What if the guy is dumb as bricks. What if they aren’t good in that role?
Ray stepped in as the face of the franchise. The guy was good on and off the court and was a class act. Maybe he didn’t bust out the pom poms in the locker room……..but maybe you don’t need to. To me he was a leader by example at minimum. Not sure if that can be questioned.
They say that Jordan would shred Kwame Brown to tears. Some of his Bulls teammates hated him. I think he fought Steve Kerr once. He sometimes referred to his teammates as “his supporting cast”. Was he a leader? Absolutely.
August 24th, 2007 at 2:53 pm
“In the human psyche there’s a huge difference between being told ‘you’re being brought in to help the rookie take this team somewhere’ from ‘it’s his team, you’re just along fro the ride’. ”
Absolutely. But David Robinson stepped aside for Duncan didn’t he? Who’s to say that Ray wouldn’t do the same at some point. All speculation that he wouldn’t. We aren’t talking about
“Glenn Robinson, Sam Cassell come to mind. As does Keyon Dooling.”
Come on with Keyon Dooling. The Dooling elbow started that. You want the youtube vid?
The chemistry between Big Dog, Cassell and Ray may not have beent the best, but I’ve never heard that any of those guys have issue with each other. Show me where?
http://www.jockbio.com/Bios/Allen/Allen_quotes.html
August 24th, 2007 at 3:08 pm
I liked Ray - a lot - but for the life of me I cannot picture him and Durant complementing each other in any way shape or form - and least of all on the same team with Rashard. What I imagine instead is a lot of games where Ray’s “feeling it” and while he’s jacking 25 FGA, Durant stands around looking bored.
I imagine Robinson stepped aside because realistically, The Admiral knew he was on the slope down, and that Tim Duncan was a very special player - another big, no less - who could make Robinson’s life much easier, at both ends of the court. I doubt Ray would look upon Durant that way. I imagine Ray would’ve rather the Sonics traded that pick for Garnett - that would be Ray’s idea of a complement to his game. If the Sonics had drafted Oden, then maybe keeping Ray makes a lot more sense, to stretch the D and give Oden room to move inside.
But Durant is a special talent, and even if he’s only 19 when the season starts, he needs to be The Man from the beginning, and everyone in the organization needs to know he’s the Man. Now they do. When free agents look around the league, they’ll know whose team this is. When we draft someone, they’ll know whose team it is. None of this “is it Ray?” or “is it Durant” BS. That’s also why Green was the smart pick at 5 - because he was the best complement to Durant…a facilitator.
August 24th, 2007 at 3:20 pm
Big Dog and Allen put up 20 ppg. Cassell 18. They were one game away from the finals.
If anything it was Cassell’s constant griping about his contract that led to their chemistry breakdown. I’ve seen people blame George Karl and his head games (believable). Or Big Dog and his one dimensional game. But I’ve never read anything about Ray Allen. If he was the bad seed…….why was he the one they retained?
http://www.hooplog.com/nba/requiem-for-three.php
Sam Cassel’s practice habits. Just go and sit down?
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1208/is_10_228/ai_114086635
August 24th, 2007 at 3:38 pm
“I liked Ray - a lot - but for the life of me I cannot picture him and Durant complementing each other in any way shape or form - and least of all on the same team with Rashard. What I imagine instead is a lot of games where Ray’s “feeling it” and while he’s jacking 25 FGA, Durant stands around looking bored.”
Why?
So will the big 3 in Boston not work at all for the same reasons?
Big Dog and Allen put up 20+ per game. Cassell put up 18. They were one game away from the finals. Then IMO Cassell and Karl crushed that team.
But Durant and Allen wouldn’t have worked why?
Strange speculation IMO, especially when there isn’t any evidence of Allen ever being a bad teammate. This isn’t Ricky Davis we are talking about.
August 24th, 2007 at 3:47 pm
My last post on this issue.
I have NO personal beef with Ray at all. He was, all things considered one of the guys on the roster who was nicest to me and indicated that he really cared about keeping the team here. I was suprised to hear other reports from players and people in the organization about him that were negative, but I don’t think any of that make him a bad guy or a cancer. He just wasn’t irreplacable, perfect for every situation, or untradable.
When Shawn Kemp was traded I felt attachment to him that lasted for years. I waited to watch his cavs debut and still consider him “a sonic” today. When Gary was traded that feeling seemed less, maybe because I had gotten so resigned to it, and maybe because I’d been through the burn once already.
With Ray I feel it not at all. He’s moved and I’m thinking of the new guys. I’m a little suprised by it. Maybe I’m more jaded. Maybe it was that he was only there 3.5 years, but for me, and I think for the majority of fans there was a brief period of sentiment, then we moved on. Its like that old friend who you never ever think about until their name is brought up. When it gets brought up you say “Oh yeah, he’s my buddy!” or in this case “I totally miss Ray on our team.” but the reality is that when the name is not brought up the person is totally off your radar.
I expected his trade to get more airplay this summer. People calling KJR to say that the Ray trade was sabotauge by Clay. People calling to say we would have been way better with him. I just don’t sense the “chatter” going on at all.
August 24th, 2007 at 3:47 pm
Sam Cassell practice habits:
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1208/is_10_228/ai_114086635
August 24th, 2007 at 4:15 pm
Menace said:
“So will the big 3 in Boston not work at all for the same reasons?”
“But Durant and Allen wouldn’t have worked why?”
I think it probably will work in Boston - the difference being 1) Pierce is established there, on the team and in the locker room, and he’s an all-star veteran player; 2) Garnett comes in with legendary intensity and Hall of Fame status - if anything he’s being seen more as the savior than Ray; 3) therefore, Ray will likely/wisely defer to the 2 veteran all-stars, both of whom carry a bigger burden than he on that team…Pierce because he WAS the man, and Garnett because he IS the man.
Durant will be incredible, awesome, all-star, all-nba, all-world, whatever - at some point. But probably not this season, and that’s why Ray wouldn’t have been willing to step aside and wouldn’t have deferred. It seems far more likely to me that Ray would’ve said “I needed help and they got me a rookie? He’s a good player, he might be great someday, but how does that help me today?” And that would be understandable to feel that way, in Ray’s position.
That’s just my read on it…
August 24th, 2007 at 7:25 pm
I love Hoopster: “I can’t take your statements seriously because your info comes from unnamed sources. My unnamed media sources say hes a great guy.”
I can assure you that had my comments been negative in nature, they would have been well documented. Principle of fairness — assume the best, substantiate the worst.
August 24th, 2007 at 8:37 pm
If it works in Boston I have two words why….”THE EAST”
Way, way harder in this conference.
August 24th, 2007 at 9:12 pm
“If it works in Boston I have two words why….”THE EAST””
I think there’s a better than average chance it doesn’t work, at least not to the level that some do. I think they end up losing in the first round of the playoffs as they don’t have the depth to keep thier big guys off the court for 40 minutes a game.
That’s a team that needs to add two quality veteran players (one of them a PG) in the worst way. If they could find a way to deal for Antonio Daniels and Jason Collins instead of signing Eddie House and Scot Pollard they might be pretty formidable.
At this point half of Tony Allen is the only guy on thier bench that should be playing NBA minutes. They’ve got a couple young bigs that might be something someday but have fatal flaws in thier games and thier backups other than them are Pollard, House and Scalabrine…ouch.
August 24th, 2007 at 10:01 pm
Since followng this thread for 2 days I would suggest the 2 main tensions are:
1. BR’s position that Ray is not really loved enough etc. when he said at the top:
“I think it is fair to say that they had made up their mind about Ray. They did not love him enough.”
I think many fans would rather he said “I” than “They” or later “We’
I think Brian Projected his feelings on the wider Sonics fan base in an inaccruate way and underestimates the dynamic that for many fans who “love” Ray they can understand & support the trade - so they do move on. But that doesn’t mean a thing in terms of my love for Ray. I loved GP more than any Sonics ever - but it took me about 3 days & I loved the trade as a Sonic fan > and I moved on. Simliar dynamic now. That is my story.
And a month after GP was traded the vast majority of Sonics fans came to support the trade based on RA playing so well. Today, many Sonics fans are supportive of the trade based on their hope that JG will be a stud.
2. The other issue is BR’s statements about Ray being a bad leader for this team, a guy some players could not relate to - a leader with the wrong attiude to be a postive leader for this team.
I totally understand leaders fit some situations better than others. But I disagree that Ray was or would be a problematic teamate or leader for the sonics as BR suggests. To say he was traded as part of a youth movement & rebuild is fine. But to say he was traded because he had to go because of his attitude & poor leadership is IMO off base. My answer to the idea that some players didn’t relate to Ray or like him is summed up in my comments at 9:16 PM on 8/22. And as any leader knows… there are always critics - always some who don’t support you … alwasys some who don’t relate to you as well - but that does not necessartily mean you or your leadership is the problem.
August 25th, 2007 at 12:32 am
I NEVER advocated trading Ray for Marbury so don’t quote me on that.
Whoops, I knew I shouldn’t have posted that unless I could’ve provided a link. I remember your spare parts idea near the deadline but could have swore you mentioned a direct swap at some point over the last couple of years. Sorry for error.
I didn’t see a single mention on this site about Ray in a month. Nor have I heard his name on the radio. Thats what I’m pointing out.
Since on this site, we usually talk issues to death, I can understand why there’d be a lull until the season starts and the loss becomes tangible. Radio? Haven’t listened much myself lately so I couldn’t say… are people actually talking about the Sonics now? On a somewhat related note, i’m kinda curious if anyone has tracked ticket sales to date for the Sonics? How have they stacked up against Blazers ticket sales?
When Shawn Kemp was traded I felt attachment to him that lasted for years.
Kemp left town with a hell of alot more personal and team oriented negativity surrounding him than Allen did.
August 25th, 2007 at 10:28 am
DT > No kidding on Kemp - by the time he left my perspective was that for most fans it was “Thanks for the memories but don’t let the door hit you too hard on your but on the way out”. He had warn out his welcome & burned alot of bridges. Took most people 5 minutes to accept his departure.
August 25th, 2007 at 11:23 am
I agree, JJ. Kemp clearly undermind the team and punched his own ticket out of town. This was not even close to the case with Ray.
Brian’s comments about Kemp only reinforce my belief that this whole thing is merely Brian’s personal beef with Ray, not a rational argument or observation. Weak.
August 25th, 2007 at 11:25 am
“undermined”
August 26th, 2007 at 7:48 am
I think you guys fail to realize that the whole purpose of blog entries is to elicit responses. You keep quoting the “agitating” comments of the main article as proof that I can’t stand Ray but they’ve generated 140+ responses in the dead period of the offseason. It was good discussion and clearly, based on response, a topic that people felt they wanted to talk about.
Regarding Kemp I can only say that my heart felt what it felt. I went to his legends tour event last summer and people still felt an affinity to him despite the fact that he’s been gone what 9 years? We were all pissed at him, but we watched him in cleveland. For better or worse people cared.
I’d love to tell the stories about Ray that justify my opinions but its not meant to be in this type of forum. As I’ve gone back to again and again nobody is perfect and raking him across the coals for human flaws is not my intent. It’s not appropriate. He’s not a perfect guy and IMO should not be above criticism as a leader or a player. That doesn’t mean I dislike him in any way. There are few, if any players in this league who should be above criticism.
August 26th, 2007 at 9:27 am
BR > I agree - this has been a good discussion & that’s part of the fun & value of this. I have questioned some of your comments/thoughts on this thread but I do not believe you “Can’t Stand Ray”. I’ve heard your positive affirmations of Ray’s positives.
And you are right - no one is above criticism or perfect. I think when you role it all together there are simply some differences of opinion here on Ray as a team leader & on the degree to which Sonics Fans bonded with Ray.
August 26th, 2007 at 12:19 pm
Brian, if you don’t want to spill any beans to justify your opinions, that’s your business. I can respect you opinions. I’ll just ask that in any future criticisms of Ray, that you make clear that it is your opinion and not to try to project your opinions onto the masses… smells too much like a politician to me.
August 26th, 2007 at 2:38 pm
I don’t understand my role here if it is not to project opinions. You don’t get to relay every detail of the locker room or practices. Its what blogs are.
I certainly don’t begrudge you writing your opinions of my comments here. It’s what it is.
August 26th, 2007 at 2:42 pm
WOW - I’ve been going on defending my comments about Ray Allen without ever really summing them up. I just re-read the article and went back through my comments. I have no idea where you can say that I didn’t like Ray Allen based on any of this. In general I think I’ve been pretty complimentary to him.
August 26th, 2007 at 5:29 pm
I don’t understand my role here if it is not to project opinions. You don’t get to relay every detail of the locker room or practices. Its what blogs are.
I certainly don’t begrudge you writing your opinions of my comments here.
That’s not what i’m saying. I’m saying I don’t appreciate you telling us how we feel.
I have no idea where you can say that I didn’t like Ray Allen based on any of this. In general I think I’ve been pretty complimentary to him.
Really?…
I’d love to tell the stories about Ray that justify my opinions but its not meant to be in this type of forum.
That doesn’t sound very complimentary to me. You’re putting this ominous cloud out there but aren’t willing to say anything to back it up. We’re left to draw our own wild conclusions. Frankly, I don’t understand the purpose of you throwing that out there in the first place. Is it supposed to give your opinion some sort of validation without offering anything of substance? Doesn’t work.
August 27th, 2007 at 12:34 pm
“Regarding Kemp I can only say that my heart felt what it felt. I went to his legends tour event last summer and people still felt an affinity to him despite the fact that he’s been gone what 9 years? We were all pissed at him, but we watched him in cleveland. For better or worse people cared.”
We weren’t all angry at Shawn Kemp for complaining about his contractual status and forcing himself off of the team by demanding a trade to another ballclub. It was just business.
Not everyone cared about Kemp and intently watched him play for the Cleveland Cavaliers, as I assume that a lot of fans moved on and focused their undivided attention toward the Seattle Supersonics.
Again, Brian, you should’ve used the pronoun “I” rather than “we” in that instance.
“I’d love to tell the stories about Ray that justify my opinions but its not meant to be in this type of forum.”
If you’re going to call out Ray Allen, then so be it. Instead of making vague and unsubstantiated claims, however, you should provide the readership with specific examples and cite any outside sources who can corroborate your allegations. Also, you had no right to claim that your opinion is held by the masses; you’re off base and out of line there.
That type of editorializing, ultimately, can damage one’s journalistic integrity.
August 28th, 2007 at 10:55 am
One thing about the Allen trade is that the Sonics are taking a risk by putting so much burden on two rookies. I remember the baby Bulls when they drafted Chandler, Curry, Crawford, and Fizer in quick succession. There was a lot of talent there, but they seemed to have a tough time recovering mentally after the first couple years of piling up losses. It would been nice if the Sonics could have obtained a more experienced guy to go with Durant instead of another rookie.
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