11/4/07 Box Score: Sonics 101 Clippers 115
Posted on Sunday, November 4th, 2007 at 4:02 pm by Big Chris
The Sonics were led in scoring by Kevin Durant with 24 points. Damien Wilkins contributed 22, and Chris Wilcox chipped in 17 including one great dunk on the “Kaveman”.
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| Seattle | ||||||||||||
| Name | Min | FG | 3Pt | FT | Off | Reb | Ast | TO | Stl | Blk | PF | Pts |
| K. Durant | 37 | 10-19 | 3-6 | 1-2 | 0 | 8 | 5 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 2 | 24 |
| C. Wilcox | 29 | 8-14 | 0-0 | 1-2 | 3 | 9 | 0 | 2 | 0 | 0 | 4 | 17 |
| N. Collison | 22 | 0-6 | 0-0 | 0-0 | 2 | 10 | 2 | 2 | 2 | 1 | 2 | 0 |
| D. Wilkins | 36 | 7-13 | 1-4 | 7-8 | 0 | 5 | 6 | 2 | 1 | 0 | 2 | 22 |
| E. Watson | 25 | 2-7 | 0-0 | 0-0 | 0 | 2 | 4 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 5 | 4 |
| R. Swift | 15 | 1-2 | 0-0 | 0-0 | 1 | 2 | 1 | 2 | 2 | 1 | 0 | 2 |
| J. Green | 23 | 4-7 | 0-0 | 6-6 | 2 | 7 | 0 | 4 | 0 | 1 | 4 | 14 |
| D. West | 18 | 0-3 | 0-0 | 0-0 | 1 | 2 | 5 | 3 | 1 | 0 | 2 | 0 |
| W. Szczerbiak | 17 | 6-11 | 1-3 | 0-0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 3 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 13 |
| L. Ridnour | 5 | 0-0 | 0-0 | 0-0 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 2 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 0 |
| J. Petro | 4 | 1-1 | 0-0 | 3-4 | 1 | 2 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 5 |
| M. Gelabale | 2 | 0-0 | 0-0 | 0-0 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 0 |
| K. Thomas | DNP - Coach’s Decision | |||||||||||
| M. Sene | DNP - Coach’s Decision | |||||||||||
| Totals | 233 | 39-83 | 5-13 | 18-22 | 10 | 47 | 25 | 22 | 6 | 4 | 24 | 101 |
| Percentages: | .470 | .385 | .818 | Team Rebounds: 4 |
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| LA Clippers | ||||||||||||
| Name | Min | FG | 3Pt | FT | Off | Reb | Ast | TO | Stl | Blk | PF | Pts |
| C. Maggette | 37 | 7-13 | 0-1 | 13-14 | 3 | 6 | 3 | 2 | 2 | 0 | 3 | 27 |
| T. Thomas | 33 | 8-15 | 4-7 | 0-0 | 0 | 5 | 3 | 0 | 1 | 2 | 2 | 20 |
| C. Kaman | 33 | 4-9 | 0-0 | 2-2 | 2 | 15 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 3 | 4 | 10 |
| Q. Ross | 16 | 1-4 | 0-1 | 2-3 | 1 | 3 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 2 | 4 |
| S. Cassell | 22 | 4-12 | 1-4 | 2-2 | 1 | 5 | 5 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 11 |
| P. Davis | 7 | 1-3 | 0-0 | 2-2 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 2 | 4 |
| C. Mobley | 30 | 8-16 | 1-3 | 0-1 | 1 | 6 | 2 | 2 | 1 | 0 | 5 | 17 |
| B. Knight | 15 | 1-3 | 0-1 | 0-0 | 1 | 2 | 4 | 2 | 2 | 0 | 1 | 2 |
| A. Thornton | 11 | 2-4 | 0-0 | 0-2 | 1 | 2 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 2 | 4 |
| R. Patterson | 20 | 4-7 | 0-0 | 5-8 | 2 | 3 | 2 | 2 | 6 | 0 | 0 | 13 |
| D. Dickau | 10 | 1-3 | 1-1 | 0-0 | 0 | 1 | 2 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 3 |
| J. Powell | 1 | 0-0 | 0-0 | 0-0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 |
| A. Williams | DNP - Coach’s Decision | |||||||||||
| E. Brand | DNP - Coach’s Decision | |||||||||||
| S. Livingston | DNP - Coach’s Decision | |||||||||||
| Totals | 235 | 41-89 | 7-18 | 26-34 | 12 | 48 | 25 | 12 | 14 | 5 | 22 | 115 |
| Percentages: | .461 | .389 | .765 | Team Rebounds: 5 |
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| Game Info | ||||||||||||
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Technical Fouls: Seattle - C. Wilcox 1 Officials: Bill Kennedy, Eddie F. Rush, Pat Fraher |
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Plus/Minus
Nick Collison led all players who played significant time at +0. Johan Petro was +7 in 5ish minutes, and Luke Ridnour was +5 in roughly 6 minutes of play.
Help Value (hv=Reb+Ast+Blk+Stl-TO)
Nick Collison and Kevin Durant were both +13 for the game. Damien Wilkins was +10.
November 4th, 2007 at 4:13 pm
1. Wilcox has transformed in to a very good low post player offensively. For some reason we went away from him later in the game (maybe due to his foul trouble) and let Wally and Wilkins go one-on-one. Wilcox’ progress is the single most surprising and encouraging thing about the season so far IMO.
2. Jeff Green is showing progress. He is still adjusting to trying to play through contact (most of his turnovers were from getting stripped on drives) but you saw his all around game tonight. His shooting, especially at the line, looks much better.
3. Swift looks very slow and plodding. He’s so late going for blocks you kinda wish he’d just not bother so he can save some wear on the knee. I’m starting to wonder if the 40 pounds he added are doing more harm than good at this point.
4. Watson, as always, was terrible. Unless they are showcasing him for a trade, I just don’t get it.
5. We really need a shotblocker. Collison is a solid player and would be great as the first big man off the bench, but he’s not a shotblocker, and we need one in there to mask our defensive weaknesses. Personally I’d throw Sene in there and see what happens.
6. People will say Wilkins had a great game, and he did shoot well statistically, but I *hate* his game. The guy gets tunnel vision every time he touches the ball. He takes the shots that Durant should be getting. He is a first class ticket to mediocrity.
7. Durant is the truth. Also, he doesn’t look that bad to me defensively. He anticipates well and gives good effort. His feet aren’t quick enough to stop a quicker, shorter guy off the dribble, but he’s not terrible. I’m also very impressed by his court vision.
8. Although I’d much rather have him in there than Watson, West isn’t a true point guard and I think he fits best as a 6th man. I really don’t understand why Luke is riding the pine.
November 4th, 2007 at 4:17 pm
They need to attack the basket more. Our opponents have been to the line more than us in all three games thus far. In the Phoenix game we only went to the line a total of 15 times! FT’s are supposed to be gimme points. Drive to the hole and draw a foul! Don’t settle for long jumpers (WILKINS!) Keep pushing the ball inside to Wilcox
November 4th, 2007 at 4:21 pm
Didn’t watch the game…but after the third game it sure doesn’t appear that the “defensive” philosophy has taken hold within the team.
November 4th, 2007 at 4:24 pm
4 free throws for the starting frontcourt through three games. Nick and Chris need to start getting to the line more often.
November 4th, 2007 at 4:27 pm
Durant with 24pts, 8 rebs and 5 assists. Wow.
Collison and West each had zero points. Wow.
Watson only had 4 in 25 mins. Blech.
Wilkins, although we don’t like his style of play, did very well with 22 points, 5 rebs and 6 asst. He shot 7-13 and only 2 turnovers. What is there to complain about there, really?
Green turned the ball over 4 times, West and Wally each 3 times. That is the problem area, IMO. Along with Swift with 2 points, Collison and West with ZERO points, and Watson with only 4. We can’t just rely on the main guys to do all the scoring…
Swift looked very slow and vulnerable, did not see any bright spots there. Without KT we are going to continue to get exposed at the C.
November 4th, 2007 at 4:45 pm
I agree totally on the Watson and Wilkins references. I don’t get why Watson is playing so much if not to showcase him for a trade. He is a marginal upgrade defesively over Luke and doesn’t compare on the offensive end. Wilkins and Wally are both blakc holes on offense unless they have no option to shoot and must pass. Wilkins hits a shot and it seems like he feels like he is on fire and everyone should clear out for him. I am glad that he is filling up the stat sheet though. Maybe we can package him and get someone back in a position we need help. Wilcox started out great but it seems like he has such a fragile psyche. If he doesn’t get a call or something doesn’t go his way he pouts and it really seems to affect his game. He needs to toughen up to take that next step. Durant was just amazing. When his shot is on he is very tough to stop with he quick release and length. Green looked good as well. He seems like he is going to round out very well and I like what I have seen from him so far.
November 4th, 2007 at 4:48 pm
Agreed Swift looks very slow. If he cannot provide interior D then we are in for a long season. Agree that maybe Sene should get a bit of run.
November 4th, 2007 at 4:50 pm
If Wilkens just used more discretion in some of the shots he takes…..then I’d be happy. But to your point he has been filling the stat sheet so far.
Where is Nick Collison? He needs to show up. No surprise to me though, he has always been inconsistent at best. Remember how he started off last season?
I didn’t watch the game but it sounds like we gave up a bunch of 3s again. Tim Thomas? Thats the negative of zone Ds. Thats how they get broken. But it is still probably a better defensive approach for our team considering the personell we have at this time.
November 4th, 2007 at 5:01 pm
Nick needs to stop taking those long jump shots, he never makes them and he is getting his ass handed to him by actual centers. This season is going to be a loooooooooooong one.
November 4th, 2007 at 5:31 pm
After gazing over the box score, I’m impressed with Kevin Durant, Damien Wilkins, and Chris Wilcox’s efficient shooting. It’s exciting that neither Durant nor Wilkins had empty games, too, as they both crashed the glass and dished out dimes at a sufficient rate.
If Durant oftentimes has games in which he shoots over 50% from the field, then he’ll deserve to be the main option on offense; otherwise, Wilcox should be frequently fed the ball in the paint — even though all three of the Seattle Supersonics’ point guards are a joke — since close-range shooting is a more efficient means of scoring points.
Anyway, let’s go SEATTLE SEAHAWKS!
November 4th, 2007 at 5:45 pm
Just watched the taping of this game, here are my thoughts:
- KD just gets better every game. He’s taking smarter shots, and bothering opponents on defense with his length. 24 and 8 aint too shabby. Another thing that impressed me was he actually called for the ball when the momentum switched the Clippers way in the 3rd. That right there just shows me he’s light years ahead of every 19 year old player that entered the league.
- I don’t like admitting it, but I’m wrong about Wilcox. He just seems to be different this year. Chris is playing with more tenacity then I’ve ever seen from him before. Just sucks that he was a non-factor in the 4th quarter.
- Time to give Luke lots of run for a bit. Earl just isn’t panning out and my boy Delonte has simmered.
- Jeff Green = better than people think. He got crucified for his athleticism, did you guys see his offensive rebound for the dunk all in one motion? That was insane.
- Wally played well today, but I’d like him to figure out that his role is a spot up jump shooter. I can’t count how many times he has tried to drive it in the lane, or make a spin move in the post, only to get stripped for a turnover. If he plays the role of spot up shooter, he’ll be incredibly effective.
And that’s all. The game was closer than the final score indicates. We were in it until about 7-8 minutes in the fourth.
November 4th, 2007 at 5:46 pm
who wants to talk about the huge gaping hole we still have at the C? I mean, if you wanna develop Sene, Petro, and Swift all at the same time, that’s fine, but the only silver lining there is the lottery pick next year. If Swift doesn’t learn to use his new bulk and move quicker, we’re in deep doodoo against many teams with Collison at C, and if KT can’t stay healthy. The one positive I’ve seen is Petro’s play lately, and I can’t believe I’m hearing myself say that.
November 4th, 2007 at 5:50 pm
Also things are so bad with Watson right now, Ralph Lawler of the Clippers broadcast was laughing at his FG %. P.J has got to do something.
November 4th, 2007 at 5:53 pm
My worst nightmare is coming true - that Watson is playing his way out of the possibility of other teams wanting to trade for him.
November 4th, 2007 at 5:57 pm
Nice to see more stellar PG play:
48 mins, 2-10 FG, 10 assists, 6 turnovers, 4 points. That’s rich.
Can anyone who saw the game tell me why, after another great first half, Wilcox didn’t get more touches or shots in the 2nd half and especially down the stretch?
Is it just me or does the ball seem to be stopping with Wilkins when we need important buckets down the stretch?
November 4th, 2007 at 5:59 pm
it’s not just you
November 4th, 2007 at 6:00 pm
The bewildered Watson Hater Broken Record Club is becoming fun to watch in a cartoonish sort of fashion. Let’s see if y’all can figure it out…
Q: What does PJ value the most?
A: Defense.
Q: What does PJ despise the most?
A: Turnovers.
If PJ felt there was a better option, they’d be playing.
-*-*-*-*-*-
Great game from Durant today! Props to Wilcox & Wilkins as well.
November 4th, 2007 at 6:10 pm
On a side note, Ruben Patterson seems to play with an extra vengeance defensively against the Sonics. I am not surprised he racked up all those steals today. The Sonics’ demise last season began in Wisconsin when Ruben managed to pick up a phantom technical foul on Damien Wilkins with five minutes remaining in the contest. It seems that he still thinks Howard owns the team (though I believe that one of Howard’s few good moves as owner was the position he took with Patterson).
November 4th, 2007 at 6:11 pm
“Seattle had only six points in the first 6:12 of the final quarter, all by Wally Szczerbiak.”
Okay - this is a freaking substitution issue: the wrong guys are in the game in the 4th quarter. It happened against Phoenix, it apparently happened again today.
Why is Wally playing in the 4th Q - at all - and why are Wilcox and Durant not getting all the important shots down the stretch? It’s not hard to figure out - either the PG’s aren’t getting them the freaking ball or certain other players are looking for their own shots at the expense of Wilcox and Durant. Either way, it’s bullshit.
Why does it appear to me that Wilkins is always looking to get his “20″ late in games? Is he in a contract year, or is it just that Wilkins family DNA that can’t be stopped, only contained?
November 4th, 2007 at 6:21 pm
Durant was sick. We saw glimpses of the future today guys. It was amazing!
November 4th, 2007 at 6:27 pm
“I don’t get why Watson is playing so much if not to showcase him for a trade. He is a marginal upgrade defesively over Luke and doesn’t compare on the offensive end.”
Agreed about Luke, he is our best option. Any team that may be interested in a PG probably just became “un-interested” after watching tape of Earl the last three games. If we are showcasing him, we are losing value.
Agreed that Wilcox is stepping up and moving into that introductory area of better than average PF’s in the league. He hit some very tough shots with Caveman all over him.
I am completely ok with Wally world playing in the 4th quarter or any time the coach calls his number. He is a valuable asset on the court. He is a solid veteran (of which we have few) who can stick the long jumper. What I’m concerned about is the way in which Wally is being used. He should not, repeat not be trying to create his own offense (like Wilkins is doing). He needs to be our gun off the bench. He needs to be camped out on the arc waiting for the teams to double team Wilcox (it happened in the Phoenix game and this one) and get the kickout and bombs away. If he wants to get fancy, let the defender come to him, shake him off with one quick step and then bombs away. That is what he is good at, and that is what we should be encouraging. Not post ups, not dribble drive spin moves. Shoot the jumper wally.
I am fine with Wilkins and his 3 pointers in the flow, I am fine with the midrange game. But like above, I am not fine with his attempts at creating his offense. Take your shots in the flow. You should average 4 assists a game, not 4 turnovers.
At this point, I think we need to see a healthy dose of Sene and Luke, and not so much of Earl and big Red.
November 4th, 2007 at 6:31 pm
Big_Worm Says:
November 4th, 2007 at 4:13 pm
No need to copy and paste - I agree with everything you said.
Once Thomas’ is ready to go, and Ridnour drops the mask or gets let out of the dog house, I want to see this rotation:
starters:
Ridnour
Durant
Green
Wilcox
Thomas
bench (in order):
West
Collison
Wilkins
Swift
Wally
November 4th, 2007 at 6:37 pm
what future? please lay that one out for me.
November 4th, 2007 at 6:39 pm
Nice post, ajw.
“24 and 8 aint too shabby. ”
No doubt… them’s Garnett numbers!
“Jeff Green = better than people think. He got crucified for his athleticism, did you guys see his offensive rebound for the dunk all in one motion? That was insane. ”
Totally! I think this guy will continue to learn. He’s not afraid to keep with the js even though it’s not falling right now, which I think is good because we’re not going to win these games anyways. He will get better there. Then he takes it to the rack… something we really need to do more often as someone said above.
I was missing that successful rack attack in Delonte today; the only things I saw there were him (and everyone else) getting blocked at the rim. I think Delonte’s game will struggle a bit with certain bigger teams when they figure out his moves, assuming he gets the minutes he deserves this season.
November 4th, 2007 at 6:43 pm
Joe Newell Says:
November 4th, 2007 at 6:27 pm
“He should not, repeat not be trying to create his own offense (like Wilkins is doing). He needs to be our gun off the bench. He needs to be camped out on the arc waiting for the teams to double team Wilcox (it happened in the Phoenix game and this one) and get the kickout and bombs away. If he wants to get fancy, let the defender come to him, shake him off with one quick step and then bombs away. That is what he is good at, and that is what we should be encouraging. Not post ups, not dribble drive spin moves. Shoot the jumper wally.
I am fine with Wilkins and his 3 pointers in the flow, I am fine with the midrange game. But like above, I am not fine with his attempts at creating his offense. Take your shots in the flow. You should average 4 assists a game, not 4 turnovers.”
WORD. Can PJ not teach this, yet, or what?! It is very disturbing to watch. But I think we do have to give some lenience in these first few weeks while the lineups and the system begins to become more familiar.
November 4th, 2007 at 6:45 pm
While I like Collison for his work ethic, he is just too short to play Center and doesn’t shoot well enough from the outside to be a threat at PF offensively. I would suggest we need to trade him for a 6′11″ FC with a jump shot. Watson is playing himself into a permanent backup role. He will be traded also to open space for a PG if we get a shot at a good one. Wally is a joke so far. The trouble is we have to take back salaries for these guys. Wilkins and Green are giving us everything we need at SF. Eventually Green could take over but for now a two man rotation works well. Together their numbers look great. Wilcox is playing his way into a $10M contract. Swift was playing his first regular season game in more than a year. He is going to need 6 months to play himself into shape.
November 4th, 2007 at 6:52 pm
“Swift was playing his first regular season game in more than a year. He is going to need 6 months to play himself into shape. ”
Yep. I’ve been saying this for a long time. Folks have been so high on getting Swifty back, but ignoring the facts about this kid: STILL UNPROVEN. Sorry, it’s true. I am in wait-and-see mode with this kid. Not falling into the false hopes game, just yet.
November 4th, 2007 at 6:55 pm
Why does it appear to me that Wilkins is always looking to get his “20″ late in games? Is he in a contract year, or is it just that Wilkins family DNA that can’t be stopped, only contained?”
Dominique Wilkins was always known as a selfish player, so it’s not surprising that his nephew, Damien, is carrying the torch. Damien Wilkins has performed wonderfully thus far this season — especially at a paltry cost of $2,900,000 this season, $3,100,000 season next season, and $3,300,000 during the 2009-2010 season — therefore, it isn’t fair for us to perpetually harp on him, since there are other players (e.g., Earl Watson) who deserve more of the blame.
“Wally played well today, but I’d like him to figure out that his role is a spot up jump shooter. I can’t count how many times he has tried to drive it in the lane, or make a spin move in the post, only to get stripped for a turnover. If he plays the role of spot up shooter, he’ll be incredibly effective.”
Wally Szczerbiak apparently suffers from delusions of grandeur, as “The Bronze Bomber” seems to believe that he possesses the all-around talents of Mike Miller. As it is, though, he’s basically a washed-up, overpaid version of Jason Kapono. Yet, unfortunately for him, his ball-handling, dribbling, and passing skills are next to nil. Furthermore, he’s a slow-footed, injury prone plodder who’d have a difficult time adequately defending high-school players. All in all, the only positive attribute that he brings is his spot-up shooting ability from beyond the arc.
“Swift looked very slow and vulnerable, did not see any bright spots there. Without KT we are going to continue to get exposed at the C.”
Yeah, Robert Swift’s recovery from the torn ACL in his right knee is reminiscent to Maybyner “Nenê” Hilario’s comeback last season. Swift, therefore, probably won’t return to full speed ’til sometime around mid-season. Kurt Thomas, by the way, is naturally a high-post player who shoots with his face to the basket on offense; consequently, there should always be a true low-post presence — such as, well, the grungy red-head — playing alongside him.
November 4th, 2007 at 7:12 pm
Collison’s offense leaves a lot to be desired. It’s frustrating that he still can’t hit a wide open jump-shot. I had hoped he would eventually be able to spread the floor with his shooting, similar to Troy Murphy, but it doesn’t look like it’s going to happen.
Wilcox was able to really improve on his low-post moves over the off season. What is preventing Collison from improving on his jump-shot? He should be able to do that after 4 years in the league.
Also, why does PJ keep using the same rotation down the stretch? Obviously, the lineups he’s using in the 4th quarter aren’t working. I would like to see him give West and Green a chance to see how they play at the end of games.
November 4th, 2007 at 7:17 pm
Y’all ought to tone down the clamoring for Luke Ridnour. Hell, Earl Watson’s fall from grace doesn’t negate Ridnour’s atrocious defense and subpar offense — which is caused by not only his medicore shooting stroke, but also his occasional hesitation at decision making — so everyone should just relax a bit.
In all reality, the Seattle Supersonics’ point guard situation is in shambles and, moreover, is unlikely to be fixed until the 2008 NBA Draft. Until that point in time, Sam Presit’s objective should be to trade both Ridnour and Watson — as well as Wally Szczerbiak, who must have some value to a team that needs a long-distance shooter — for players who’ve got expiring contracts.
November 4th, 2007 at 7:19 pm
“I was missing that successful rack attack in Delonte today; the only things I saw there were him (and everyone else) getting blocked at the rim. I think Delonte’s game will struggle a bit with certain bigger teams when they figure out his moves, assuming he gets the minutes he deserves this season.”
Yeah but the thing that bothered me today about him was that he didn’t seem to trust his jump shot today. I thought that this is one of those games where he needed to shoot those open jumpers, but instead he passed them up for drives to the hoop against a stout defender in Kaman. If he regains his confidence in his jumper, that’ll open up every other part of his game. He was at his best during the preseason when he made some early jumpers.
November 4th, 2007 at 7:24 pm
Sports Fan,
I believe we should hang on to this guy. The problem is pretty obvious, he’s just playing out of position. If he comes off the bench for Wilcox, he’ll be way more effective. He had two plays today where he drew 2 turnovers. One was a charge on a fastbreak 2v1, and a steal where he read the break perfectly 2v1. Nick is as heady as they come and can still play a huge role, just not at center against certain teams.
November 4th, 2007 at 7:41 pm
Yeah it makes me cringe when i see Wally trying to create his own shot…I think he’s doing this cuz they wont run a play for him. PG aren’t running any plays. That’s why we need Ridnour in…
Wilkins trade value is going way up. So i dont mind him stalling up the offense. His defense has been solid. He’s giving effort which counts for something…
Do you think we can sign PJ Brown?
November 4th, 2007 at 7:43 pm
west is not playing like himself. he only took 3 shots and was not agressive to the basket and wasnt even looking for his shot. i think he is trying to play more controlled like PJ wants him to but the problem is when he plays it safe it takes away his game. i just dont think he knows what his role is suppose to be. hopefully he will be back to form next game.
November 4th, 2007 at 7:52 pm
I’d be curious to know what was in that post that sent it into moderation twice?
November 4th, 2007 at 7:53 pm
“Collison’s offense leaves a lot to be desired. It’s frustrating that he still can’t hit a wide open jump-shot. I had hoped he would eventually be able to spread the floor with his shooting, similar to Troy Murphy, but it doesn’t look like it’s going to happen.”
I hate to break it to you, Eli, but Nick Collison and Troy Murphy are almost complete opposites of each other. Yeah, they’re both Caucasian dudes who play in the NBA; that’s about it, though.
Anyway, Collison’s main problem is that he’s too short to be a dominant interior defender. As it is, Brendan Haywood, Jason Collins, Jarron Collins, Jeff Foster, Joel Przybilla, and Radoslav Nesterovic each have one thing that separates them from Collison, with that being a couple extra inches in height.
Not only does being just 6′9″ tall hurt Collison defensively, but it also stunts him on offense. Since Collison is neither a seven-footer nor an athletic player, his back-to-the-basket game can be easily contained by the opposition.
Regarding Collison’s face-to-the-basket game, moreover, his shitty mid-range jumper — as he had an effective field-goal percentage of 28.5% on jump shots last season — totally hinders him. Sadly, he’ll probably never show any meaningful improvement in that area.
With the Seattle Supersonics, Collison has comfortably settled into the enforcer role — which was pulled off by Michael Cage during the late-’80s and early-’90s — as a proficient rebounder. In the end, ultimately, that’s all we can expect from him.
November 4th, 2007 at 7:53 pm
Sportsfan–
I’m not for trading Collison either. It’s not his fault that the other centers on our roster haven’t played well enough to crack the rotation. If this is going to be a permanent rotation, we might want to trade a couple of players before they get too depressed from being on the bench or lose too much value.
You could make a case for Ridnour, Swift, or Kurt Thomas deserving more minutes. Ridnour is possibly the best free throw shooter on the team. Swift had a decent preseason, and KT is still one of our better post defenders.
November 4th, 2007 at 8:03 pm
I agree with a lot that is being said. However the stats for this one show everything. The reason why we are losing games is primarily TURNOVERS! Something like 22 to 12 today. If you ever want to lose a game just give the opposition an extra 10 possessions.
November 4th, 2007 at 8:11 pm
“Wilkins trade value is going way up. So i dont mind him stalling up the offense. His defense has been solid. He’s giving effort which counts for something…”
I still think that Sam Presti should offer Earl Watson and Damien Wilkins to the Miami Heat for Jason Williams. Because Williams looks like he’s about finished and Dorell Wright isn’t quite up to snuff, Watson and Wilkins would fit right in under Pat Riley’s command. Williams’ expiring contract would, of course, help further the Seattle Supersonics’ rebuilding process.
“Do you think we can sign PJ Brown?”
In all likelihood, P.J. Brown would officially retire before signing with the Seattle Supersonics. Anyhow, Brown should quickly sign with the Boston Celtics; he, unlike Scot Pollard, would provide consistent production and overall stability as a backup to Kendrick Perkins.
November 4th, 2007 at 8:25 pm
I was disappointed with Swifty. I know he’s working his way back but after all the hope he looks lost and very slow. I hope it gets better but at this point I agree with putting Sene in and letting him run until KT can play. Even the Clips announcers were talking about the 3 straight picks at center and little to show for it.
I also agree that Watson looks terrible and is likely untradable after the last few games. I was excited when we brought him back but he seems to have regressed. Let Luke and West run.
Durant and Green were incredible. 3 games and they look comfortable. We might not win many games but I’ll still enjoy watching them play.
November 4th, 2007 at 8:27 pm
Collison is the best Center we have at the moment. Unfortunately his efforts are not good enough because he is out manned. If he was our best PF he would be playing there and Wilcox would be at Center. I believe Chicago was interested in him. Perhaps next June we entice them into a deal. If we could get a high first for him I would look for a taller guy in the draft. 6′9″ guys that cannot shoot are not hard to find. I admire his toughness and rebounding but he isn’t going to be the answer at PF or Center so let’s move on to someone that can be a star in this league. There are going to be several FC’s in next years draft. We have plenty of other bigs that can rebound if that is all the job requires. In two years Green may be at PF. Let’s make the move while we have the chance.
November 4th, 2007 at 8:43 pm
You got to question PJ’s overall head coaching abilities. The 4th quarter let downs have to be his fault to some degree. If you want a guy to get you 35-40 wins max, he’s your guy.
I can see Swift is more of a Ming, Shaq role (of coarse I don’t see him being anywhere near this good). He’s a wide body and blocks up a lot of the lane if he can get in position. For a young guy he doesn’t seem to be afraid of his opponents. In the pre-season game against the Rockets I thought he did a good job holding his postion against Yao and Dikembe. We got to remember he has hardly played at all.
Hopefully Thomas can start to play. I think he can be a postive on the court role model for Durant, Green, and the young bigs.
We are just in a real mess with the point guard play. Of course this is obvious. I have no quick solution for this.
As well as Wilkins has played I just don’t see him being a starting player in the NBA. He is definately on his way to proving me wrong.
They have two good chances coming up to win games, playing two teams without wins.
Let’s keep the Sonics in Seattle.
November 4th, 2007 at 9:03 pm
“I was disappointed with Swifty. I know he’s working his way back but after all the hope he looks lost and very slow. I hope it gets better but at this point I agree with putting Sene in and letting him run until KT can play. Even the Clips announcers were talking about the 3 straight picks at center and little to show for it.”
Unless the Seattle Supersonics are down by at least thirty points during a game, Mouhamed Sene shouldn’t see a second of playing time. Hell, it pains me to watch Sene aimlessly flail around the court, as he gives off the vibe of a mentally challenged individual playing basketball at the Special Olympics.
Although Johan Petro is fundamentally unsound and tends to make ticky-tack errors, he’s not a complete and utter albatross like Sene. Petro, therefore, should assume Kurt Thomas’ spot until the wily, yet injury prone veteran is back from whatever problem is ailing him.
November 4th, 2007 at 9:16 pm
Slow team starts are common for PJ as an NBA head coach. A note in the nba.com recap stated his 3 seasons with Golden State averaged an 0-6 start. Portland was better but he also had a 1-3. 5 of 6 seasons he had losing record first month. Other coaches get what they need done in training camp. Does not seem PJ did then or now.
November 4th, 2007 at 9:20 pm
Foget the final scores this year and look to the future (hopefully in Seattle).
Today’s game was Jeff Green’s coming out party; he simply dominated during a 7 min. stretch in the 2nd. He looked comfortable and confident, not missing a FT for the game? Forget all the “Princeton offense” crap, this guy proved today that he is an NBA player inside and out.
The confidence that Green and Durant played with was off the charts for rookies in their 3rd game. Can anybody name two rookies who played better together this early on?
November 4th, 2007 at 9:39 pm
The Sonics are finishing games with two guys who can’t score the ball in Collison and Watson. Maybe the asnwer is to finish games with Green at power forward and Wilcox at center. Here is the lineup I would like to see at the end of games:
PG- West
SG- Durant
SF- Wilkens or Wally Z
PF- Green
C- Wilcox
Offensivley I think this unit would play much better.
November 4th, 2007 at 9:39 pm
My theory on why Watson is playing rather than Ridnour: PJ sees that the team is likely to lose lots in the early going, and wants his most veteran PG in the game. At the same time, Luke got whacked in the face in preseason and wasn’t hitting his shots. PJ figures Luke’s confidence would be hurt right now and is waiting until 5-10 games in to get him a good run. He is unlikely to pull Watson on the basis of one or two poor games, hence continuing to play him. But how long can he go on this way? Soon we’ll see changes.
Only a theory…
November 4th, 2007 at 9:44 pm
Is anyone else finding it interesting that although this team is loosing, it is competing thru 3 quarters in every game? The past two seasons Seattle had a team that would either be in the game all the way or get blown out and look bad for the whole game. This team is doing something right to be in games or even in the lead after 3 quarters.
I know people will say ony the 4th quarter matters in the NBA, but really if you can’t hang in this league teams will blow you out by the 2nd or 3rd quarters. So I see a lot to be excited about.
November 4th, 2007 at 10:08 pm
What is the problem on defense? Is it primarily the center position? Or do all of the turnovers make good defense tough?
November 4th, 2007 at 10:14 pm
Three pointers in the 4th quarter have KILLED us. Thomas today had a stretch of 3 straight three pointers. In the Phoenix game, Marcus Banks came through in the 3rd and 4th from beyond the arc. In Denver, Kleiza and Najera made big 3’s after big 3.
Our perimeter D late in the games has been a major problem. That and turnovers.
November 4th, 2007 at 10:17 pm
didnt see the game but from all the comments and seeing whats been happening now for three straight games is their youth is showing.fourth quarter is when the veterans take over.now durant is great but thats why we need wally and kurt thomas in for the final 12 minutes.its crunch time and watson,collison and wilikins are not clutch.so we get hurt.it also seems like were giving up a lot of points,to many 30 point quarters.good defenses dont give that up to many times.
November 4th, 2007 at 10:25 pm
“Slow team starts are common for PJ as an NBA head coach. A note in the nba.com recap stated his 3 seasons with Golden State averaged an 0-6 start. Portland was better but he also had a 1-3. 5 of 6 seasons he had losing record first month. Other coaches get what they need done in training camp. Does not seem PJ did then or now.”
From the moment that P.J. Carlesimo’s hiring as head coach of the Seattle Supersonics was announced by Sam Presti, I’ve been downright puzzled by it. Not only is Carlesimo a retread who’s got an extremely checkered past, but his tenures with the Portland Trailblazers and Golden State Warriors were abject failures.
Even more startling, though, was the hiring Paul Westhead as one of Carlesimo’s assistant coaches. With Westhead’s preposterous reliance on a fast-paced, run-’n'-gun offense — which has been repeatedly proven ineffective at the NBA level — he’s a one-trick pony. This isn’t the WNBA, folks.
The combination of Westhead’s gimmicky offensive system and Carlesimo’s overuse of the porous 3-2 zone defense, the Seattle Supersonics are bound to be blown out on a regular basis this season. At least it’ll put the team in a position to select Derrick Rose in the 2008 NBA Draft, however. Other than that, though, it’s an out-’n'-out abomination.
November 4th, 2007 at 10:25 pm
-I thought Swift was too slow, & deliberate b4 the injury, & never saw what people were so hyped up about. I know were deperate for a young stud Center, but come on, their’s plenty young up, & coming Cs’ better than him imo(still like him better than Petro though).
-I was an Earl fan last year, & I think he fit better, & made more sense with last years team. It doesn’t make sense to keep Earl as the starting pg for this team though imo. He’s a decent backup who can start if your starter goes down. He’d be better for a team with better players, who could benefit from his energy, & tenacity, & can cover for his mistakes. I’m not a Ridnour fan, but I think he makes more sense for this particular team(better scorer). To be honest though, I like Dickau as much if not more than Luke, & the only thing I think Luke has over him is size. That said Luke is still somewhat young, & it’s time to see once and for all what he can really do, although he’s already had sufficient time to show that imo.
-Wilkins can put up #s’, but so can Stephon Marbury. It’s not done in the manner that u’d hope. If he could discipline himself better offensively, & try to be more of the Cedric Ceballos type who get’s his shots when plays break down, or late in the clock, or rebound putbacks etc., then he’d be better imo. He got his contract bcuz of the energy, & defense he brought, not his offense, but somewhere along the line he started looking for his shot way too much. Maybe that’s what being friends with Ray Allen did for him. The only problem is that he’s not Ray.
-I think Wilcox is proving me wrong too.
November 4th, 2007 at 10:38 pm
arghhhhh … I watched the first quarter and I cannot stand Wilkens’ jumper. He is shooting 3pt shots over a defender .. when he is NOT open .. I am OK with shooting 2pt shots over a defender but that was not good.
November 4th, 2007 at 10:38 pm
Got a question for everyone. Since Emeka Okafor will reportedly become a restricted free agent at the end of the season, what do you guys think about cutting ties with Swift and Delonte while offering a large contract to him?
He’d be a force in the paint as evident by his robust eleven rebounds per game and and almost three blocks per last year. I’d even give the Bobcats Wilcox, a first rounder and a filler for Emeka. He could be the defensive force we’ve been looking for. Thoughts?
November 4th, 2007 at 10:42 pm
Well the good news is that after blowing up the team, we really aren’t that bad. I realize we are 0-3, but so are the Bulls, Wiz, KIngs etc. We’ve played 3 pretty good teams and we’ve been very competitive in all three.
I am not so sure that if we had last year’s team back right now that we wouldn’t be 0-3 also; and we may have not been competitive.
November 4th, 2007 at 10:50 pm
I don’t think the Bobcats would be willing to give Okafor up. Personally, I’m not ready to think about the offseason yet or free agency. This team actually looks better for 3 quarters of play than last years’ team looked at times. We just have to learn to finish.
Remember the pathetic Weiss-coached team that got blown out 3 or 4 consecutive times by 20 or 30 points to start off the season? Even with our struggles I feel better about this team than that one.
November 4th, 2007 at 10:58 pm
“Three pointers in the 4th quarter have KILLED us. Thomas today had a stretch of 3 straight three pointers. In the Phoenix game, Marcus Banks came through in the 3rd and 4th from beyond the arc. In Denver, Kleiza and Najera made big 3’s after big 3.”
To be honest. I want those guys to have to beat us. I think we play zone to disguise our poor defense anyway. I’d rather have Tim Thomas, Banks, and Kleiza/Najera shooting to beat us than Cassell/Maggette, Nash/Marion/Amare, or Iverson/Melo. Hasn’t worked so far…….but in a way….the zone is working if that makes any sense.
November 4th, 2007 at 10:59 pm
Yeah the Weiss coached team went back east and lost 3 in a row by HUGE margins and didn’t even compete. Got him fired. So this team looks very different, staying in games as a more solid all around team. The old Sonics were all offense and if that was missing they sucked.
This team is not much better on defense, and it remains to be seen if this group of players can ever play D. I don’t expect it. They also don’t have 3 point shooting. I like the development of the young guys though and as long as they keep games competetive they will continue to learn.
November 4th, 2007 at 11:02 pm
People have mentioned that Watson maybe is being showcased (and not looking good at all).
Gets me to thinking though, Wilkins line has looked awesome recently and perhaps he really could continue to be showcased. His offensive style is painful to watch, but his stats are quite solid and may get noticed around the league.
November 4th, 2007 at 11:12 pm
“Three pointers in the 4th quarter have KILLED us.”
I will agree with that. The last five minutes everyone runs and guns from 3 pt range. R&R did it. We were counting on Wally. He hasn’t come thru. We desperately need shooters that can take the pressure off Durant in the last minutes of the game. This is one reason I prefer OJ Mayo to Derrick Rose. This is why I would like to see a PF that can shot outside the paint. We are backed into the paint playing D and the other teams are shooting over the top. When we try it they run out with the long rebound.
November 4th, 2007 at 11:19 pm
“The combination of Westhead’s gimmicky offensive system and Carlesimo’s overuse of the porous 3-2 zone defense, the Seattle Supersonics are bound to be blown out on a regular basis this season. At least it’ll put the team in a position to select Derrick Rose in the 2008 NBA Draft, however. Other than that, though, it’s an out-’n’-out abomination.”
Given that this is his first season at helm, if PJ and Paul do ok or well, Preti can feel good and act satisified with his choices. If they don’t there will the temptation to say oh well, we didn’t expect to win much, we are going to get a good lottery pick. The same could happen in year 2.
It can be a slippery deal. Most GMs will say very little solid in advance and roll out either explanation after the fact. Many will change coaches/players and duck a lot of the blame.
Everybodys know it will be a learning period but hard to know how rough or long to accept. Hopefully Presti responds acceptably.
The more seasons not in the playoffs at start, the more frequent and longer the in the playoffs run has to be later to justify it. Go 0-2, probably need to make at least playoffs 3 of next 5 to justify it. Go 0-3, probably have to make 4 of next 6. These are bare minimums to me.
November 4th, 2007 at 11:39 pm
“Got a question for everyone. Since Emeka Okafor will reportedly become a restricted free agent at the end of the season, what do you guys think about cutting ties with Swift and Delonte while offering a large contract to him?”
As it stands at this moment in time, the Seattle Supersonics won’t have the financial flexibility to present restricted free-agents — such as Emeka Okafor, Luol Deng, and Andre Iguodala — with offer sheets during the 2008 off-season. That, by the way, is ’cause the franchise is slated to be over the salary cap with approximately $54 million in guaranteed contracts — as well as cap holds for restricted free-agents (i.e., Robert Swift, Delonte West, & Mickael Gelabale) and incoming draft picks — thus, that idea should be tossed out the window.
November 4th, 2007 at 11:46 pm
If you’re not good at a 3-2 zone, you’re going to get destroyed by three-point shooters every time. My league down here in Oz plays it by default, so I’ve seen a lot of it. Three-pointers are sometimes called “Zone breakers” for this reason.
PJ has said he wants to make this a key part of his defensive scheme, which is fair enough. It certainly works when people aren’t expecting it, and it should be good for extended periods of the game. Once the players are used to it.
I’d doubt many of our players have done much zone defense at all before this. KD, Green and Collison maybe briefly at the Team USA camp, but that’s about it.
So I’d be guessing that we’ll see more of this over the coming weeks. Once it stops happening, either the players are getting better at the zone, or PJ’s given up and stopped using it in the fourth.
November 5th, 2007 at 12:13 am
I agree with you to a point Martin. But it will depend on if the other team has someone who can break the zone. The jump shot has become somewhat of a lost art form these days. There will always be great shooters like Ray, Redd, Mike Miller etc. But for a bad defensive team like we have……the zone is probably a good option vs teams that lack consistent outside shooting.
I wonder why more teams don’t play more zone against us.
November 5th, 2007 at 12:19 am
Exactly Menace. There are indeed killers out there like the ones you mentioned.
Though I’d hesitate to add Linas Kleiza and Marcus Banks to them. I think that’s more of a sign of our guys not defending the arc in the zone too well just yet. If you give anyone enough time, they should in theory be able to start knocking them down.
November 5th, 2007 at 12:46 am
Exactly. Its kind of backwards, but its ok for me to put guys like Marcus Banks (career 32%) in situations to beat us than other options on that team. I think more often than not….we’d probably win out in that situation. Just wasn’t the case the other night.
Tim Thomas has been known to hit 3s in the past (37%). Don’t know much about Kleiza (36%).
Ed Najera can take all the 3s vs us that he wants.
The zone can be effective if used situationally against the right players.
November 5th, 2007 at 1:26 am
This Tuesday, my pick is on Francisco Garcia as the next relatively unheralded player to hit three three point field goals in a critical juncture in a game while left completely wide open by the zone. At least there should be plenty of wide open three pointers for the Sonics as well against Memphis on Wednesday.
November 5th, 2007 at 2:28 am
Swift wasnt really impressive in this game, he was slow and useless
i didnt like petro and his preseason was bad but he was good in his last two games and did better than swift in only 4min
watson 4pts west 0 ridnour 0 collison 0 …….
November 5th, 2007 at 5:07 am
I just got done watching the game on the internet and here are my two cents:
1. We have two really great rookies. Kevin Durant and Jeff Green are by far our best players. I honestly think Portland really missed out, because Durant is going to be special. At worst he is a Ray Allen type player. A player who can flat out score but can’t win on his own. At best he is whatever he wants to be, MJ?
2. PG is up in the air. I think when Luke gets the mask off he will be our starter, and delonte will be the back up. Leaving Watson out.
3. We have a really good bench. When our starters tend to fade out, Delonte West, Jeff Green, and Wally Sczcerbiak offer plenty of scoring options. I think we have a top 8 bench in the NBA. Jeff Green had a very good and bad game, but mainly good (if that makes sense). He looked really great at times, but at other times he got stripped or lost the ball.
4. So far it seems that PJ plays Durant primarily with Wilkins, and Green primarily with Sczceribak. I would like to see him play Durant and Green more often. Or even Durant and Wally. Durant is the only guy on our team who will draw a double team, and Wally would be a great option to pass to out of the double team for the three ball.
5. Damien Wilkins is a good player, when he plays his role. Right now he is trying to be a scorer, and that’s not who he is. I would like to see PJ change Damiens role. Damien needs to focus on defense, and getting the ball to Durant.
6. I thought we did a descent to pretty good job with the zone defense. I believe it was the 2-2-1 defense that was very effective. If PJ can get the guys to play a good zone, teams will strugge on offense against us. I noticed that the second string guys played the best in the zone, which included Delonte and Jeff Green. Those two cover a lot of area when it comes to the zone defenses. Jeff Green and Delonte are perfect for PJ’s zone defense.
7. I think PJ was a great choice. I was in favor of Dywane Casey this summer, but now I agree with Sam Presti’s choice. I think PJ is and will be a great coach and mentor for this young team. So far I like his play calling, and I don’t have too much of a problem with his rotation. Yes, Earl Watson and Wilkins don’t deserve that much PT, but the season is early, and Luke does have the broken nose. In a week or two, I expect the rotation to be completely solidified.
November 5th, 2007 at 6:08 am
We need those guys to start:
Ridnour-healthy
Durant
Szczerbiak
Wilcox
Thomas-healthy
bench:
west
green
collison
willkins
This is the only way to Sonics won,Wally need minutes and he wil score 20 on every game…..
November 5th, 2007 at 9:28 am
First off, I have to say that I’m impressed AK1984. Since the moderators gave you a hiatus you’ve come back focussed on basketball without the other stuff and I’m finding alot of what you’re saying is bang on(not all of it of course). There’s no use sugar coating this team. They are what they are. The pointguards aren’t leaders and don’t help make their teamates jobs easier. Delonte West has shown glimmers but he too goes into funks during games. I’m still in the “we need Derick Rose” camp although early media reports say there are going to be a number of really good pointguard prospects out there in college this year.
And while it’s always nice to dream up trades to make the Sonics improved, there aren’t many teams, if any, that is willing to take on the players we want to see traded. Or if they do, they sure aren’t going to give up much that would help Seattle. Just like the rest of us, skilled Gm’s see the deficiencies in our players.
I agree wholeheartedly with the Watson and Wilkens to Miami for Jason Williams idea,and said so as far back as last summer when it was obvious the Heat were once again going to struggle at the point. If Seattle is going to be looking for a top notch pointguard next year then you might as well move one of the three we have now plus get an expiring contract.
I don’t mind Carlisimo as a coach. While I don’t see any comparison to what was hinted at from Presti with regards to defensive responsibilty and style, I can at least see he brings more stabilty(even though it’s early) to his game rotations than his last two predecessors.
As far as zone goes, perhaps if Seattle had better perimiter defenders that could take the pressure off the interoir players by not playing matador defense then I’m all for sticking with man to man. But we’re undersized and defensively challenged inside and anything to take away getting pounded in the low post and around the rim is worth a try. Here’s the choice. Play zone, block the easy passing lanes around the key, sag to the middle, and take a chance on the other team not hitting outside shots or play man to man exclusively and let teams run wild to the basket.
November 5th, 2007 at 9:30 am
We have an available trade exception from the Rashard Lewis trade in the amount of $1,259,460.00
Why not offer it to Cleveland for Shannon Brown?
Lord knows we need guard help.
November 5th, 2007 at 9:49 am
“At worst he is a Ray Allen type player. A player who can flat out score but can’t win on his own. At best he is whatever he wants to be, MJ?”
Just out of curiosity, who are these players that have won “on his own”? MJ had Pippen, an all-time top 50 player, Shaq had Kobe and then Wade; Duncan has had a host of hand-picked support players; Magic had Kareem & Worthy; Bird had Parish and McHale, so on and so forth. LeBron probably came closest but that was more of a fluke than anything and he fell short of the ultimate prize.
November 5th, 2007 at 10:00 am
Only 3 games and individual offensive stats only part of the story (his +/- is 4th worst on team) but to present Wilkins personal stats so far in comparison to the stars of last season:
Wilkins shooting % similar to Ray & Rashard last season. Wilkins just slightly behind Lewis in points per minute. Wilkins outrebounding Lewis per minute so far by 20 percent and out assisting Allen per minute by 20 percent. TO per minute less than either.
November 5th, 2007 at 10:05 am
Actually per minute Damien is 6th worst, middle of pack on +/- per minute. Too early for any of this to have meaning though. But if interested…
http://tinyurl.com/2n9qxd
You could give a modest nod to West and Petro for being even and near even on team +/-.
November 5th, 2007 at 10:16 am
Durant’s per game stats look fine right now.
Green’s better 3rd game gets him in better shape per minute pts, rebs wise but there are still shooting % and floor game issues.
Sonics will probably have to package players - good with bad- to have any chance at making a decent deal. Only 2-4 players I’d put off limits.
November 5th, 2007 at 10:24 am
Watson Wilcox Collison Wilkins Durant lineup used roughly 1/3 rd of total time is -27 or -9 in about 16 minutes time in each game.
Wilcox Collison West Wilkins Durant
was best performing +11 but only used 4 minutes.
Way too small sample sizes right now but something to watch.
November 5th, 2007 at 10:26 am
Below are a few notable comments quoted from above:
Speedcat said, “if you wanna develop Sene, Petro, and Swift all at the same time, that’s fine, but the only silver lining there is the lottery pick next year.”
AKdan said: “You got to question PJ’s overall head coaching abilities. The 4th quarter let downs have to be his fault to some degree.”
AK1984 said, “Although Johan Petro is fundamentally unsound and tends to make ticky-tack errors, he’s not a complete and utter albatross like Sene. Petro, therefore, should assume Kurt Thomas’ spot until the wily, yet injury prone veteran is back from whatever problem is ailing him.” - - - I have bashed Petro’s ineptness, but he has some game and he appears to be improving. He might be as good as Jerome James someday on occasion.
SportsFan said, “We desperately need shooters that can take the pressure off Durant in the last minutes of the game.” - - - We just gave away the best combo of 3 pt shooters in the NBA, Ray & Rashard. Ray and Durant would have been a great combo. You should expect opponents to counter the Sonics zone with 3 point shooting, especially when Wally is in, because of his lack of mobility. Opponents will also use the zone against the Sonics
November 5th, 2007 at 10:30 am
Another Clay Bennet as uber villain in the national media…
http://community.foxsports.com/blogs/edhardiman/2007/11/04/State_of_the_Art_GreedThe_Sonics_and_ARod
November 5th, 2007 at 10:36 am
I looked on hoopshype and saw that Wilkins has a player option after this season. Since his salary for next season isn’t very high ($3.1M) I’m guessing he has his sights set on pumping up his stats, opting out and getting a big payday. That would explain why he’s taking every possible opportunity to put a shot up.
Personally I’d be overjoyed if he opted out, because I think Gelebale can do most of the good things that he does, without most of the bad things. However, I’m not excited about him as our #1 scoring option all season long.
November 5th, 2007 at 10:37 am
Shannon Brown would be a nice return for a player of Wilkin’s caliber. Cleveland would need a point guard like Watson in a deal, but that’d be aight.
Mike Conley Jr. is becoming obsolete in Memphis as Lowry and Navarro seem to be their future at the point. The Griz need a high quality big in return, hmm?
Jarret Jack seems to fallen outa favor with Prtland, so he probably be had on the cheap in a two for Jack package deal.
November 5th, 2007 at 10:41 am
The Sonics should feast on the Kings for their first win of the season, or else the number one selection is becoming more likely to occur with each game.
November 5th, 2007 at 10:49 am
Nice link Durantula!
I like the idea of calling Clay Bennett and the NBA’s bluff.
Let’s tell them to stick it and see if they have the balls to move. I think they would cave in and not move. Does anyone really think that the NBA would abandon this market? Especially when the NBA still owes Seattle money on Key Arena? How would they explain that in Sacramento and everywhere else they are holding their hand out for public money? The Sonics can cook their books any way they want, but in the end Key Arena is still fine for housing a NBA ball club.
Is it possible to pass a bill that states “if the NBA allows the Sonic organization to leave Seattle then they will never be allowed back in this city/county/state? How would they like that?
November 5th, 2007 at 11:07 am
So is the Save Our Sonics brigade heading to NYC to meet with Stern this week as was written in TrueHoop?
November 5th, 2007 at 11:09 am
Hey xSonicBallerx, do u have a link to where you were able to watch the game? thanks
November 5th, 2007 at 11:26 am
On Okeafor - the way the Sonics can get him is if he signs a one-year deal after this season and then becomes an unrestricted FA after the 2008 season. That would coincide nicely with Wally and Wilcox’ salaries being off the books. Although, the way Wilcox is playing I’m starting to think we’ll want to keep him around.
Best case scenario:
- Okeafor signs a 1-year deal after this season
- Wilkins opts out after this season and leaves
- We somehow manage to trade Watson (maybe along with Petro) for a player whose contract expires in 2009
- We renounce Swift
- We don’t re-sign Wally
- We re-sign West to a MLE-type deal
- Gelebale continues to imporve and we re-sign him for Wilkins-type deal
- Wilcox continues to improve and we re-sign him to a pretty fat deal (like Shard’s previous contract)
- Sonics end up with a top-3 pick and draft Derrick Rose
Going in to the 2009-10 season (the last season under the current lease), that would leave us with:
C Okeafor
PF Wilcox
SF Green
SG Durant
PG Rose
G West
F/C Collison
PG Ridnour
F/G Gelebale
C Sene
Not bad, eh?
November 5th, 2007 at 11:28 am
Nice lineup Worm!
Starting 5 all top 10 picks.
November 5th, 2007 at 11:32 am
“Jarret Jack seems to fallen outa favor with Prtland, so he probably be had on the cheap in a two for Jack package deal.”
Hasn’t he started every game this season? Contrary to what some people believe….Steve Blake is a role playing PG. It would be a huge mistake to deal a talent like Jack in favor of Blake or Rodriguez.
“Does anyone really think that the NBA would abandon this market?”
Absolutely. No new building. No Sonics. Its a simple as that.
“Mike Conley Jr. is becoming obsolete in Memphis as Lowry and Navarro seem to be their future at the point. The Griz need a high quality big in return, hmm?”
No way. Never. Mike Conley might get Darko like minutes in his first season. But he will not be traded…..and he would never be traded to us. I’d actually argue that Gasol/Milicic/Warrick/Stromile Swift is a better big man group than what we have.
November 5th, 2007 at 11:33 am
“My theory on why Watson is playing rather than Ridnour: PJ sees that the team is likely to lose lots in the early going, and wants his most veteran PG in the game. At the same time, Luke got whacked in the face in preseason and wasn’t hitting his shots. PJ figures Luke’s confidence would be hurt right now and is waiting until 5-10 games in to get him a good run. He is unlikely to pull Watson on the basis of one or two poor games, hence continuing to play him. But how long can he go on this way? Soon we’ll see changes.
Only a theory… ”
Watson plays over Luke because PJ doesn’t want Wilcox and Collison getting in early foul trouble. Luke has trouble keeping his guy in front of him consistently and there’s no shot blocker back there to bail him out.
Earl’s merely the best of a bad bunch.
I also don’t understand PJs continued obsession with playing zone … not that our team would be much better playing man but how many times does PJ want to watch these guys get beat the same way?
Damien had a nice game for him. I can’t shake the feeling he’s playing over his head right now. I hope he’s playing well enough to play himself into a trade because his bad habits on offense will come back to haunt sooner or later.
November 5th, 2007 at 11:35 am
Okeafor, Brand or Marion are ideal free-agent acquisitions for Seattle.
November 5th, 2007 at 11:37 am
Jack and Roy don’t seem to mix. Blake and Roy has already been proven to be a valid formula.
November 5th, 2007 at 11:40 am
We don’t have the money to offer Okafor, Brand, or Marion a contract they would even consider.
November 5th, 2007 at 11:40 am
Ridnour - West - Watson
Durant - Wilkins - Watson
Green - Wally - Gelebale
Wilcox - Collison
Thomas - Swift - Petro - Sene
I’d roll like this if possible.
November 5th, 2007 at 11:42 am
Wilcox and Wally take roughly $20 million off the books to use for free-agents in 2009.
November 5th, 2007 at 11:43 am
West and Swift dollars may become available, if need be to land a big bear like Brand.
November 5th, 2007 at 11:45 am
“I also don’t understand PJs continued obsession with playing zone … not that our team would be much better playing man but how many times does PJ want to watch these guys get beat the same way?”
I think the zone gives us more of a chance defensively. It can mask some of the weak defenders that we have. We get beat much worse if we play man IMO.
I think Earl plays over Rid because of his D. Its certainly not for his O.
November 5th, 2007 at 11:45 am
Evidently, Durant will have all the power when it comes to the high-roller acquisitions, like Kobe.
November 5th, 2007 at 11:45 am
Sonics 2nd in league on 3 ptrs given up per game so far.
Top 10 in foul shots given up, 4th from bottom in foul shots taken.
November 5th, 2007 at 11:47 am
Menace Says:
No new building. No Sonics. Its a simple as that.
I don’t think it is that simple. If the Sonics leave Seattle it will be a huge black eye for the NBA. Eventually the NBA’s strongarm tactics are going to backfire. Might as well be sooner rather than later. I don’t like billionaires reaching into my wallet to pay for stuff they can easily afford. Especially after they lie about how much money they “lose”. They are not losing money. They cook the books and then show you the part that supports their argument. If we saw the whole picture we would see that they are actually coming out ahead. Don’t be naive.
November 5th, 2007 at 11:48 am
Thats not even close to enough money.
Swift only makes $2.6 million. Delonte $1.8 mm.
Brand $16 mm
Marion $16 mm
Okafor $7 mm qualifying offer. He will make more.
November 5th, 2007 at 11:53 am
Is their any way to invest money into the construction of an arena and have an agreement to earn back incremental amounts of money when it begins earning revenue, like a stock investment type deal? Could Seattle and Bennett make an arrangement with similar intentions in mind?
November 5th, 2007 at 11:55 am
Menace - unless we make some trades, we’re looking at 2009 for our chance to sign somebody.
If Okeafor signs a one-year restricted deal after this season and Brand exercises his player option (not improbable considering the achilles injury), both will be UFA in 2009. We should have plenty of money (although Swift and West could suck some of that money up), especially if we can get rid of Watson.
November 5th, 2007 at 11:57 am
“I don’t think it is that simple. If the Sonics leave Seattle it will be a huge black eye for the NBA. Eventually the NBA’s strongarm tactics are going to backfire. Might as well be sooner rather than later. I don’t like billionaires reaching into my wallet to pay for stuff they can easily afford. Especially after they lie about how much money they “lose”. They are not losing money. They cook the books and then show you the part that supports their argument. If we saw the whole picture we would see that they are actually coming out ahead. Don’t be naive.”
I like how you call me naive. It is that simple. NO NEW ARENA…..NO TEAM. Everything else is moot.
*And no, all NBA teams don’t make money year after year.
November 5th, 2007 at 12:13 pm
TukwilaSonic Says:
November 4th, 2007 at 9:44 pm
Is anyone else finding it interesting that although this team is loosing, it is competing thru 3 quarters in every game? The past two seasons Seattle had a team that would either be in the game all the way or get blown out and look bad for the whole game. This team is doing something right to be in games or even in the lead after 3 quarters.
I know people will say ony the 4th quarter matters in the NBA, but really if you can’t hang in this league teams will blow you out by the 2nd or 3rd quarters. So I see a lot to be excited about.
I agree. I’ve been pleasantly surprised how well they’ve played so far, especially this early in the season. 4th quarters are going to be tough until some go-to-guys step up to the plate. That may take some time with a lot of trial & error but when these players find their roles and confidence, this team is going to start winning some games.
November 5th, 2007 at 12:14 pm
“I think the zone gives us more of a chance defensively. It can mask some of the weak defenders that we have. We get beat much worse if we play man IMO.”
I aggree. I also doubt that our guys are model defenders in the zone by this point. I think they’ll learn to execute better, and as a result they’ll do a better job on the perimeter. But unfortunately, there’s a pretty huge margin of improvement from “better” to good in this case.
“I think Earl plays over Rid because of his D. Its certainly not for his O.”
Me too, and surprisingly enough, we haven’t had problems scoring the ball. Our defense is being picked apart late in games as well as our guys turning the ball over. As poorly as he’s played, I don’t think Earl should take any extra blame for turnovers. It seems like a bigger chemistry issue. Lots of players having a hard time with it so far. My point is, as bad as EW looks, I’d probably be playing him more too. Luke may run a more efficient offense (that’s debatable), but that wouldn’t be addressing our biggest deficiency, IMO.
November 5th, 2007 at 12:17 pm
Big Worm, I am seeing conflicting accounts on whether Damien has an early termination option this summer (hoopshype) or in 2009 (real GM and storyteller’s site) or doesnt have one listed (patricia’s and espn). Do you have another source? Any one believe they know which is correct?
November 5th, 2007 at 12:20 pm
Yeah go here. http://www.nba.com/broadband/league_pass.jsp
It was posted there last night with the link to the game, but i dont see it anymore. If you look around that webpage, i’m sure you can find it somewhere.
November 5th, 2007 at 12:48 pm
Me too, and surprisingly enough, we haven’t had problems scoring the ball. Our defense is being picked apart late in games as well as our guys turning the ball over. As poorly as he’s played, I don’t think Earl should take any extra blame for turnovers. It seems like a bigger chemistry issue. Lots of players having a hard time with it so far. My point is, as bad as EW looks, I’d probably be playing him more too. Luke may run a more efficient offense (that’s debatable), but that wouldn’t be addressing our biggest deficiency, IMO.
- At what point do Earl supporters come out and admit that he isn’t playing good defense this year. He has been torched all three games…and it is in no way debateable that Luke runs a more efficient offense. Come on now…
November 5th, 2007 at 12:51 pm
“I don’t think it is that simple. If the Sonics leave Seattle it will be a huge black eye for the NBA. Eventually the NBA’s strongarm tactics are going to backfire. Might as well be sooner rather than later. I don’t like billionaires reaching into my wallet to pay for stuff they can easily afford. Especially after they lie about how much money they “lose”. They are not losing money. They cook the books and then show you the part that supports their argument. If we saw the whole picture we would see that they are actually coming out ahead. Don’t be naive.”
I like how you call me naive. It is that simple. NO NEW ARENA…..NO TEAM. Everything else is moot.
*And no, all NBA teams don’t make money year after year.
- I’ve never seen where an owner has taken a loss in the long run from owning a team. Any owner that says that they came into this as a business investment making money each year is flat out lying to you…and unfortunately the public lets them do it time after time.
November 5th, 2007 at 12:59 pm
Ray Allen speaks out about the arena situation:
http://sports.aol.com/fanhouse/2007/11/05/ray-allen-speaks-out-about-lies-in-seattle/
November 5th, 2007 at 1:04 pm
To be fair to last year’s team, they lost three of their first four games in the final minute (Portland when Ray missed the potential game winning three, Orlando because of Hedo’s unbelievable shot, and Miami because of Wade’s free throws). This team is getting run out the gym in the fourth quarter. This is the NBA, players hit open threes.
November 5th, 2007 at 1:15 pm
Here’s my take. Everyone during the offseason was sooooo concerned with Damien’s offense. Noone seemed to want the guy on the team. I have always liked Damien Wilkins and was incredibly adverse(and still am) to getting rid of him. Stop complaining about what he is doing. While the defense is lacking, guess what folks….we are scoring very, very sufficiently to get into the playoffs WITHOUT Ray Allen and Rashard Lewis AND being one of the youngest teams in the league. In my opinion our half court defense is fine. Our turnovers that lead to transition buckets are killing us right. In reality our defense isn’t all that bad. There are few teams that can turn the ball over as much as we have and play transition defense. This team will make the playoffs IF they control the turnovers.
Also, quit criticizing Wilcox for not getting to the line. I mean really, the guy is now a 20/10 player and it is still not enough. In my opinion we outplayed the Suns and then shot ourselves in the foot with turnovers. Stop worrying about the defense…it’s ok, stop worrying about our ability to score…it’s clicking for us. If we fix the turnover situation WE WILL BE IN THE PLAYOFFS….”nuff” said.
Also, I am starting to see what will be more so than I think any of us could have expected. Durant/Green may very well be the best tandem in NBA history when all is said and done.
November 5th, 2007 at 1:20 pm
I can’t believe prior management passed on Al Jefferson for Robert Swift. The guys a bust and Al is performing like a star WHILE saying he’s not worth max money. Geez.
November 5th, 2007 at 1:24 pm
“I’ve never seen where an owner has taken a loss in the long run from owning a team. Any owner that says that they came into this as a business investment making money each year is flat out lying to you…and unfortunately the public lets them do it time after time.”
Oh no doubt. Please don’t think that I ever suggested that owners don’t make money in the long run. But in the short term it doesn’t surprise me that some teams, including ours, may not make money.
I was responding to Vinny’s idea that NBA teams “lie about how much money they “lose”. They are not losing money.”
Lots of teams could be losing millions a year. Until they sell the team…..yes…..they very well could be losing money.
November 5th, 2007 at 1:27 pm
*And no, all NBA teams don’t make money year after year.
Having the team allows the owner (not the team) to make more money year after year with tax credits etc…not to mention huge profits when the team sale comes around.
November 5th, 2007 at 1:27 pm
Wih all the Wilcox man love going around, I think one thing should be put into perspective.
He is an absolute god-awful defender, so poor that unless he truly is going off for 20 a night, his offensive contributions are practically nullified.
November 5th, 2007 at 1:51 pm
Just came upon this link from the Times Sonics forum about Bennett being inducted into the OK Hall of Fame by David Stern!!!
http://www.oklahomaheritage.com/HallofFame/2006HallofFameInductees/tabid/86/Default.aspx
November 5th, 2007 at 1:54 pm
I think i’m gonna be sick…
November 5th, 2007 at 1:54 pm
“Lots of teams could be losing millions a year. Until they sell the team…..yes…..they very well could be losing money.”
Losing money on paper. I’d argue that very few are actually losing money.
To be honest I think its only fair that teams should disclose what they’re talking about when they say losses. You can turn 10 million in operating profit to a 15 million dollar loss pretty quickly if you want too.
November 5th, 2007 at 1:57 pm
Here’s my take. Everyone during the offseason was sooooo concerned with Damien’s offense. Noone seemed to want the guy on the team. I have always liked Damien Wilkins and was incredibly adverse(and still am) to getting rid of him.
- Ummm, just watching the game makes me still concerned with his offense. With Watson and Wilkins on the court there are basically two black holes.
November 5th, 2007 at 2:14 pm
Wih all the Wilcox man love going around, I think one thing should be put into perspective.
He is an absolute god-awful defender, so poor that unless he truly is going off for 20 a night, his offensive contributions are practically nullified.
The sonics have been without a legit low-post threat for so long, I’m willing to put up with Wilcox’ poor defense, at least for now. Consider that the guy just turned 25 and you realize he still has time to turn in to a decent defender. I think his effort is okay; it’s his awareness and anticipation that needs work. Perhaps P.J. can help him turn the corner in this department. The fact that he’s improved his post game this much gives me hope that he can improve his defense as well.
Fast forward to the end of next season… Wilcox will be a 26 year old 20-10 guy… that’s going to cost a pretty penny to re-sign.
November 5th, 2007 at 2:17 pm
I don’t like Wilkens shot selection. But I’ll say this…..he isn’t the reason we are losing games. So whether you like his shot selection or not……he is playing the best basketball he ever has right now. Its not like he is taking 20 shots a game. But its ok for another player to do that. Double standard.
Through 3 games
18 pts 7 rebs 4 assts 1.3 steals 1.4 tos. 44% fg 50% from 3
player 2
23 pts 6 rebs 2 assts 1 steal 1 block 3 Tos 44% fg 37% from 3
November 5th, 2007 at 2:19 pm
yeah, but durant looks way prettier when he takes his shots
November 5th, 2007 at 2:24 pm
“Wih all the Wilcox man love going around, I think one thing should be put into perspective.
He is an absolute god-awful defender, so poor that unless he truly is going off for 20 a night, his offensive contributions are practically nullified.”
Tends to happen around here. Your defense will be forgiven if you produce offensively. Look no further than Rashard Lewis and Ray Allen.
I’m a Wilcox supporter…..and I totally agree that his D is poor. But its also funny to see all the Wilcox haters bottle up their opinions of him since he is putting up .3 ppg more and 2 more boards a game this year. There is a fine line between love and hate.
On the other end of the spectrum……..Collison/Watson are god-awful on the offensive end, so poor that unless they truly are going off for 10+ a night (rebounds or assists), their defensive contributions are practically nullified.
November 5th, 2007 at 2:30 pm
I think the key is finding a balance in your lineup.
For example, having Green next to Durant is a good tradeoff. He doesn’t need a lot of shots and can guard the better scorer of the two wing players.
Having a good defender next to Wilcox is another good tradeoff - Collison does OK there; he can guard the best low-post scorer on the other team, but what we are really lacking is a good shot blocker. Not only would he take pressure off of Wilcox, he can ease the pain of our perimeter defenders.
That’s what we’re really missing right now.
November 5th, 2007 at 2:35 pm
“With Watson and Wilkins on the court there are basically two black holes. ”
There shooting percentages justify the shots they are taking. Damien is doing just what I expected. He is averaging 15-20 ppg
and taking pressure off of Green to come in a be an instant star. Wilcox is now a legit 20/10 guy worthy of a big contract. Both of them have stepped up. Too bad Watson hasn’t done anything with his opportunity to start. Petro has looked better. Collison is still too small to play the post.
You guys had better stick to basketball. When it comes to accounting you don’t have the first clue. If you count capital gains as profits then every owner in the league would be selling every 5 years to a greater fool who lives out of town. is that what you want? A team must make money in the short term. Capital gains are irrelevant.
November 5th, 2007 at 2:40 pm
There shooting percentages justify the shots they are taking. Damien is doing just what I expected. He is averaging 15-20 ppg
- Hopefully you got Watson and Wilcox mixed up when you were talking about shooting percentages. If Damien averages 20ppg please check for other signs of the apoclypse. It would prove though that just about anyone can score 20 ppg on a bad team. Oh well, if that happens I will be very happy cause maybe they’ll trade him to another foolish team.
You guys had better stick to basketball. When it comes to accounting you don’t have the first clue. If you count capital gains as profits then every owner in the league would be selling every 5 years to a greater fool who lives out of town. is that what you want? A team must make money in the short term. Capital gains are irrelevant.
- Please show me an article or some sort of information where an owner has ever came out on the losing end from owning a sports franchise. Forgive me for not feeling sorry for them, they know what they are getting into when they make the purchase. It’d be like if I bought a run down house and complained that I was wasn’t making any money on it until I sold it…I knew what I was was getting into…
November 5th, 2007 at 2:41 pm
I don’t think Watson’s .261 FG% justifies the shots he’s taking.
November 5th, 2007 at 2:47 pm
I’m a Wilcox supporter…..and I totally agree that his D is poor. But its also funny to see all the Wilcox haters bottle up their opinions of him since he is putting up .3 ppg more and 2 more boards a game this year. There is a fine line between love and hate.
Two boards/gm is quite a difference. I’m even more impressed with his shooting percentage. His offseason work is showing. He’s much improved on playing with his back to the basket.
I don’t like Wilkens shot selection. But I’ll say this…..he isn’t the reason we are losing games. So whether you like his shot selection or not……he is playing the best basketball he ever has right now. Its not like he is taking 20 shots a game. But its ok for another player to do that. Double standard.
I agree. I think the number of shots he is taking is right in line with being the third scoring option. Durant is option #1, as he should be. Wilcox is option #2, as he should be as well (and i’d even like to see him take a few more shots away from Durant, the way CW’s currently playing). If anyone else should be the third option ahead of Damien, i’d love to hear who and why.
November 5th, 2007 at 2:48 pm
For everyone loving the numbers game, will you do me the pleasure of finding out the EFG%, efficiency, and +/- of Wilkins and Watson in the 4th quarter of all the games so far? I think THAT will show some interesting trends… Maybe we should do everything regarding Damien and Earl as we have so far for the 1st 3 quarters and then switch things up in the last because those guys are NOT getting it done. Maybe Luke-in-the-Iron-Mask should play the roll of closer while we get Durant and Green out there with Collison and Wilcox. At least they would be getting the chance to prove themselves (chance which I don’t think its worth entrusting to tweedle dee and dum!!!).
November 5th, 2007 at 2:53 pm
For everyone loving the numbers game, will you do me the pleasure of finding out the EFG%, efficiency, and +/- of Wilkins and Watson in the 4th quarter of all the games so far? I think THAT will show some interesting trends…
Might as well run those stats for everyone that’s played in the 4th quarters up to this point. Are you really expecting any eye-openers?
November 5th, 2007 at 2:54 pm
dave said, “I think i’m gonna be sick…”
Me too.
I like basketball, the players, the game, the cheerleaders and I like to play GM. I am sick of all this talk about the team relocating.
Most of us who post or read this site are interested in the game, not the ownership bull. Mr. Bennett is destroying the game for a lot of fans. We cannot talk about the game without getting upset or pissed off about the situation.
I will not be attending any games or buying any gear this year. I will not wear my Sonics hat or T-shirt. I won’t display the banner in my home. I won’t be going to the bar to watch games. Bennett will not make one nickel off of me.
Boycott.
November 5th, 2007 at 2:59 pm
I think the danger here is trying to make too much out of 3 games worth of statistics.
Yeah, Wilkins has fantastic stats, but is he really going to keep making all of these tough shots? Is he really going to continue hitting 50% of his threes?
You gotta kind of go with subjective observation at this point because there haven’t been enough games for the stats to be meaningful yet. For example, Durant is only shooting 44% but if you don’t count the first game he’s at 50%.
Watching Wilkins play gives me the impression that he can’t maintain those stats. He’s going to miss more shots and turn the ball over more.
Watching Wilcox play, he looks really smooth in the post… his hands are great, he anticipates double teams, he finds cutters, he’s got an array of moves. His numbers might not be THAT much better than last year, but watching him play, he LOOKS a lot more effective.
Durant is the big unknown. If he averages 20+ PPG and shoots around 45% for the season I’ll be very happy. If he averages 25+ and shoots close to 50% then we’ve got a guy who is going to be dominating the league for a decade.
November 5th, 2007 at 2:59 pm
“Two boards/gm is quite a difference. I’m even more impressed with his shooting percentage. His offseason work is showing. He’s much improved on playing with his back to the basket.”
Hasn’t he always shot at a pretty high percentage?
“I agree. I think the number of shots he is taking is right in line with being the third scoring option. Durant is option #1, as he should be. Wilcox is option #2, as he should be as well (and i’d even like to see him take a few more shots away from Durant, the way CW’s currently playing). If anyone else should be the third option ahead of Damien, i’d love to hear who and why.”
Wilkens is taking about 14 shots a game. CW on the other hand has never needed a lot of shots. But imagine if he got more. hmmmmmm
I’ve heard people say “Durant should get those shots”. Well….doesn’t he take enough as it is? He is taking 21 shots per game (6 of which are 3s).
I just think its funny that people are freaking out on Wilkens like he is Flip Murray……and its not even close to being like that. Like another post said some have complained about Wilkens scoring in the past, or lack there of it. Now he is putting up 18 and they say he shoots too much.
I guess we always need someone to complain about.
November 5th, 2007 at 3:05 pm
I don’t care about Wilkins and Watson being the force in the 4th quarter, that is going to hurt your young guys if they have to step up and maintain that role. Let Durant be the man that you not only hope calls for the ball in late game situations(which he is starting to do), but as the head coach MAKE him the go to guy. Better now that later. Guys like Damien are great because they are versatile and can really get things going. Not to mention as was stated earlier….he makes a defense play honest when he is hitting his jumpers! His shot selection I agree is somewhat “unrefined”, but at the same time this is his(and everyone elses) first year without the Big Two(Ray Ray and Shard) on the team….let the man develop and keep the chatter to a minimum. Jeepers creepers folks, now, if Wilkins was taking 30 shots a game and scoring 20 points….then I would have a problem. Let’s not forget that his rebounds are good being an off the block players, and his assists are completely acceptable for not being the primary ball handler.
There are two questions in my opinion. 1, Is his shot selection taking away from Big Weezy and KD in their ability and opportunity to score? and 2, Is his shot selection dissallowing our point guards to distribute the ball and record their assists? If the answer is Yes it is a marginal yes at best. Which in my opinion will not only allow, but more or so points to a developing chemistry as well as individual player ability.
Can we reallly ask for anything more at this point?
November 5th, 2007 at 3:07 pm
I don’t necessarily think Wilkens keeps up this production….but it would be great if he did. If he can improve his shooting percentage and give us 15-17 a game in the flow of the offense…..cool. Not gonna knock the guy that much (despite his shot selection). Its OK for KD to bomb away in my book, and he isn’t even close to KD level in that respect.
Someone needs to shoot. KD can’t take all the shots. I guess I’d rather have Wilkens take more shots than Collison/Watson/Wally/Petro.
November 5th, 2007 at 3:08 pm
For those who feel that the Sonic’s performance has been middle of the road, consider this: “Through one week of action, the Sonics are playing at the fastest pace by far. They’re averaging more than six possessions per game more than any other team. They just aren’t using them very well.”
http://www.nba.com/powerrankings/
Moreover, on points per 100 possesions, we are very poor (Off: 95.0 (27), Def: 111.1 (25)). I’m a little surprised that the offensive production is THAT bad; but I expected a team that would struggle offensively, and they are delivering. As noted, turnovers are part of that, but it’s also 3-ptrs taken and made, shooting percentage, and getting to the line. Offensively, they have a long way to go.
November 5th, 2007 at 3:23 pm
I read some OKC fan comment on David Stern speaking on Clay Bennett’s behalf at an induction for Bennett into the OKC hall of fame or something. Anybody know of this? How people can think that Stern isn’t fully behind Bennett at this point is beyond me. In fact, I blame Bennett’s influence, be it money or otherwise, for Stern giving up on Seattle the way he has. Much more than I think Stern just got his feelings hurt. That may have played a small part. But I feel that Bennett has been calling Stern’s shots for a while now.
November 5th, 2007 at 3:31 pm
First very small sample 82games stats are up now.
November 5th, 2007 at 3:33 pm
Small sample sizes apply, but:
http://www.82games.com/0708/07SEA7A.HTM
I hope no one really thinks that Damien is going to keep up an eFG% of .512 all season long. Over his career he’s posted an eFG of .471.
Right now his hot shooting is the sole reason why he’s getting props. If he wasn’t shooting out of his mind right now he’d be drawing a lot more criticism for his shot selection and flow-killing ways. Are bad shots still bad shots even if they go in?
“If anyone else should be the third option ahead of Damien, i’d love to hear who and why.””
First in reply to that I want to say that mediocrity doesn’t automatically become genius in the absence of competition.
I’d be OK with putting West, Jeff Green or even Szczerbiak in the starting lineup. I don’t think the defense would take much of a hit with West or Green. Wilkins just makes me cringe. Let’s watch next couple of games and watch how many times Damien passes the ball back after it comes to him.
November 5th, 2007 at 3:36 pm
By positon
Durant the main contributor to winning the SG spot (with defensive marks average to a little above),
PG a huge loss, small losses elsewhere. Awful defense at both forward spots.
http://www.82games.com/0708/0708SEA5.HTM
November 5th, 2007 at 3:39 pm
LOVE the beginning of the season on 82games:
West-Durant-Szczerbiak-Green-Petro
Taht group has an eFG% of 1.000, so why isn’t that our starting 5?! LOL!!!!
November 5th, 2007 at 3:46 pm
In 4th quarter from field:
Wilkins 3-9, Durant 5-11, Wilcox 1-4, West1-3,
Wally 3-9, Watson 3-7, Green 0-2, Collison 2-3, Petro 1-4
November 5th, 2007 at 3:51 pm
Player on the court, the early numbers show offense least productive with Watson and Green. Defense least effective (if you don’t count Sene in garbage timne) with Wally and Wilcox.
Of guys playing 10+% of minutes West on court has best marks on offense and 2nd best on defense. Petro lowest team points alowed while on court. Good individual defense numbers too.
November 5th, 2007 at 3:57 pm
I hope no one really thinks that Damien is going to keep up an eFG% of .512 all season long. Over his career he’s posted an eFG of .471.
You must be quoting from MYK’s book that states certain players will never improve after X amount of years.
November 5th, 2007 at 4:02 pm
“I read some OKC fan comment on David Stern speaking on Clay Bennett’s behalf at an induction for Bennett into the OKC hall of fame or something. Anybody know of this? How people can think that Stern isn’t fully behind Bennett at this point is beyond me. In fact, I blame Bennett’s influence, be it money or otherwise, for Stern giving up on Seattle the way he has. Much more than I think Stern just got his feelings hurt. That may have played a small part. But I feel that Bennett has been calling Stern’s shots for a while now.”
I guess all we need is an new arena…..then we will have to see what happens. Until then we will never ever know.
November 5th, 2007 at 4:04 pm
Well I guess it is just a combined crappy team effort in the fourth. One thing worth noting:
Collison/Wilcox/Petro (our bigs) COMBINED to take 11 shots.
Whereas Durant, Wally, and Wilkins (as well as Watson to a lesser degree) EACH took almost that many shots.
When we talk about shot selection down the stretch that is an alarming trend. Wilcox et al either need to step up or (novel idea here) WATSON, WILKINS, WALLY NEED TO DISTRIBUTE THE BALL OR TAKE HIGHER % SHOTS!!!
November 5th, 2007 at 4:05 pm
I agree. I think the number of shots he is taking is right in line with being the third scoring option. Durant is option #1, as he should be. Wilcox is option #2, as he should be as well (and i’d even like to see him take a few more shots away from Durant, the way CW’s currently playing). If anyone else should be the third option ahead of Damien, i’d love to hear who and why.
- I think the argument isn’t the number of shots he takes its the fact that when he touches the ball he shoots it or bogs down the offense. If he were getting shots in the flow of the offense and creating other shots for his teammates it’d be much less noticeable.
You must be quoting from MYK’s book that states certain players will never improve after X amount of years.
- Yup…its a pretty amazing book…I mean its much more logical for players to just magically turn into completely different players. LOL…man…I wonder where Dick’s book is of all the players that have gone from middle of the road players to much better after year 5. Sheesh
November 5th, 2007 at 4:14 pm
“I read some OKC fan comment on David Stern speaking on Clay Bennett’s behalf at an induction for Bennett into the OKC hall of fame or something.”
http://www.oklahomaheritage.com/HallofFame/2006HallofFameInductees/tabid/86/Default.aspx
November 5th, 2007 at 4:14 pm
Real early but a few more things I see:
Wilcox 50% on his jumpers. Collison gooseegg on that so far on a handful of attempts.
Green 57% shots taken inside. Good thing too.
Petro’s jumper also off so far as is West’s and of course Watson’s.
Durant’s inside shots as % of total shots just a few % points higher than Ray and Rashard’s rates.
November 5th, 2007 at 4:16 pm
So, Ridnour has the highest +/- on the team at +8; meanwhile Watson has the lowest at -42.
Something is amiss…
November 5th, 2007 at 4:18 pm
Crow Says:
November 5th, 2007 at 3:46 pm
“In 4th quarter from field:
Wilkins 3-9, Durant 5-11, Wilcox 1-4, West1-3,
Wally 3-9, Watson 3-7, Green 0-2, Collison 2-3, Petro 1-4″
Just beautiful. It’s really good for the team for guys like Wilkins AND Wally AND Watson to all take roughly twice as many shots as Wilcox in the 4th quarter.
Wilkins’ and Wally’s shot attempts reek of 2 guys trying to pad their own numbers, while Watson’s attempts reek of a guy who can’t create any real offense for the team and is therefore left to shoot himself with the shot clock running out.
PJ needs to get the starting lineup, the bench rotation, and the offensive pecking order established before we start piling up losing streaks.
November 5th, 2007 at 4:23 pm
Team offense 3rd best of main 10 guys with Wilkins on court, defense is 6th best. Overall one of 4 of top 10 with a positive on/off, even though he has a strong negative on. Its all relative and for the moment his numbers add up better than Wally Z and Green’s.
Gelabale at 6-7 minutes played.
Maybe later.
Does PJ want til game 5 or later to make the first changes? I’m not going to sweat it.
November 5th, 2007 at 4:33 pm
“I wonder where Dick’s book is of all the players that have gone from middle of the road players to much better after year 5″
Sounds like a good book. Antonio Daniels read it. Chauncey Billups. Ben Wallace. Jalen Rose?
Are you saying we are completely screwed with Ridnour, Watson, and Collison?
November 5th, 2007 at 4:34 pm
“Big Worm, I am seeing conflicting accounts on whether Damien has an early termination option this summer (hoopshype) or in 2009 (real GM and storyteller’s site) or doesnt have one listed (patricia’s and espn). Do you have another source? Any one believe they know which is correct?”
It’s doubtful that Damien Wilkins has an early termination option after the 2007-2008 season; instead, he most likely has an early termination option after the 2008-2009 season. As a restricted free-agent during the 2005 off-season, Wilkins was signed to a five-year, $14,500,000 offer sheet with the Minnesota Timberwolves — which, of course, was matched by the Seattle Supersonics — thus, the most plausible scenario is that his early termination option covers only one season.
“I’m a Wilcox supporter…..and I totally agree that his D is poor. But its also funny to see all the Wilcox haters bottle up their opinions of him since he is putting up .3 ppg more and 2 more boards a game this year. There is a fine line between love and hate.”
Whether it’s a matter of apathy, laziness, or inability, I’ve resigned to the fact that Chris Wilcox is a god-awful defender. While Wilcox’s offensive production should skyrocket this season due to the departures of Ray Allen and Rashard Lewis, it doesn’t absolve him from his futility on defense. All in all, I’d like to see Wilcox replaced with a more multifaceted, well-balanced player.
“Ray Allen speaks out about the arena situation:
http://sports.aol.com/fanhouse/2007/11/05/ray-allen-speaks-out-about-lies-in-seattle/”
That’s a goddamn good article.
November 5th, 2007 at 4:34 pm
Durant 5th in league in shot attempts per game but hitting better.
November 5th, 2007 at 4:35 pm
HJCourtsense, to me it reeks more of players desperately trying to stop the bleeding from the offensive barrage being put up by the opposition. I’d like Wilcox to shoot more in the 4th as well but it’s also on him to fight harder for position down the stretch when the opposing D toughens up.
Did you really expect the Sonics to win these three games? I’m just happy (and surprised) they’ve been competitve through three quarters up to this point. Give them some time and they’ll get these 4th quarters figured out.
What’s with me playing optimist vs you? Did we enter some kind of bizzaro world?
November 5th, 2007 at 4:35 pm
Another interesting stat:
Our starters (Watson/Durant/Wilkins/Wilcox/Collison) are at -27.
Take the same unit, subtract Watson and insert West: +11.
Same unit, with Luke: -1
Hard to tell if this is significant though, because we’ve only seen the West unit for 4 minutes and the Luke unit for 3.
November 5th, 2007 at 4:39 pm
I don’t like Wilkens shot selection either. But lets not make mountains out of mole hills.
He isn’t shooting us out of games.
He is shooting at roughly the same % as durant (higher in 3s). 14 attempts a game vs Durants 20+.
18 ppg and he is rebounding and not turning the ball over.
Does it last? Remains to be seen. If his percentage goes down and he continues to fire then we have a problem.
November 5th, 2007 at 4:41 pm
Sounds like a good book. Antonio Daniels read it. Chauncey Billups. Ben Wallace. Jalen Rose?
- First of all…4 players out of what 1000 NBA players in the last 10 years?
- Second of all…one of the things all those players did was have a decent year during their “formative” years. They showed a sign of potential. Look at Damien’s PERs they have been stunningly similar (13.4, 13.4, 13.1) and of course Earl has done it for 7 years.
Of course Damien I guess has a chance to improve (seems like he has been around a lot longer than 4 years). However, much like the Sene pick…its nothing you should count on.
November 5th, 2007 at 4:42 pm
I don’t like Wilkens shot selection either. But lets not make mountains out of mole hills.
He isn’t shooting us out of games.
- Again…is it shot selection…or his overall disruption of the offense? He holds the ball too much…I don’t really think he shoots too much (for this team)
November 5th, 2007 at 4:42 pm
So far Durant top 10 in league on 3 pt attempts, top 25 in makes on a solid just not inflated make rate.
November 5th, 2007 at 4:43 pm
3 games people. 3 games.
We bagged on Hill for never sticking with a rotation, and now we bag on PJ for sticking with one.
Realistically we are not going to make the playoffs, so don’t dwell on the tactical issues, focus on the strategic. Look at things in 10 game blocks. Take steps forward in those blocks. In block one, we’re going to start Watson and Wilkins…give Wilkins the green light to create his own shot, same with Wally off the bench. And we’ll play a heavy dose of zone…since that takes time to learn, might as well be now. We will reevaluate after 10 games. You people need to stop riding the roller coaster. Big Picture!! Every single player and coach on this team is still trying to get a feel for roles/approach/comfort zone. The schedule was brutal, and we happened to get some bad luck (anybody check out Klieza’s and Banks’ shooting percentages from 3 land in subsequent games?). Just chill..enjoy the growth, and the spurts of really fun basketball. We’ll revisit in 7 more games.
November 5th, 2007 at 4:46 pm
Exactly!
November 5th, 2007 at 4:53 pm
where can we see that wilcox dunk
November 5th, 2007 at 5:04 pm
” games people. 3 games.
We bagged on Hill for never sticking with a rotation, and now we bag on PJ for sticking with one.
Realistically we are not going to make the playoffs, so don’t dwell on the tactical issues, focus on the strategic. Look at things in 10 game blocks. Take steps forward in those blocks. In block one, we’re going to start Watson and Wilkins…give Wilkins the green light to create his own shot, same with Wally off the bench. And we’ll play a heavy dose of zone…since that takes time to learn, might as well be now. We will reevaluate after 10 games. You people need to stop riding the roller coaster. Big Picture!! Every single player and coach on this team is still trying to get a feel for roles/approach/comfort zone. The schedule was brutal, and we happened to get some bad luck (anybody check out Klieza’s and Banks’ shooting percentages from 3 land in subsequent games?). Just chill..enjoy the growth, and the spurts of really fun basketball. We’ll revisit in 7 more games. ”
Great post…
November 5th, 2007 at 5:06 pm
“You must be quoting from MYK’s book that states certain players will never improve after X amount of years. ”
Enjoy the Kool-Aid, Tate. It’s called an outlier.
November 5th, 2007 at 5:08 pm
“So, Ridnour has the highest +/- on the team at +8; meanwhile Watson has the lowest at -42.
Something is amiss… ”
Small sample size theatre.
November 5th, 2007 at 5:10 pm
Good post Chuckles. But isn’t the term “ragged”, not bagged on someone? Maybe it’s just us Canadians that talk differently.
While there is always something to “rag” on with this team,and certainly the players being singled out pretty much deserve it, I also agree that whether or not we like the rotation( I personally am middle of the road on it besides wishing to see less of Watson), establishing one and having players accept their roles and get comfortable within the rotation is important, especially for a new group at the start of a season.
Unlike some who feel he’s inadequate as a coach, I think Carlismo is at least intelligent enough to see who is working best with who, and at which times during the game. But if he starts changing things up all over the place this early on the team will forever be spinning their wheels this season and won’t achieve any sort of cohesiveness.
I admittedly did this with my lacrosse team one year when tactics weren’t working at the start of the season I foolishly made changes, then changed the schemes again looking for the right fix, only to eventually go full circle back to plan A, thus wasting a couple of months. It’s not so much finding the perfect plan and players, but getting them to buy into the plan and execute. Repetiveness in practice is what this new group needs. And once it’s clear who can accomplish what the coach wants and who is out there doing his own agenda then insert players as they perform.
I think we’ll definitely see changes to the rotation but the season is a marathon, not a sprint. I said from before training camp that it will be sometime in January before the team settles into a solid groove and playing time is established. Certainly after 3 games I see no need to alter the course.
November 5th, 2007 at 5:24 pm
If the Sonics are going to loss anyway, I say free Sene. He leads the team in rebounds and points per 48 minutes and he is shooting 1000%. Can’t beat that. Best individual stats on the team.
November 5th, 2007 at 5:25 pm
Enjoy the Kool-Aid, Tate.
I was wondering why I was starting to get a toothache. Maybe Courtsense could suggest a good dentist?
November 5th, 2007 at 5:30 pm
We bagged on Hill for never sticking with a rotation, and now we bag on PJ for sticking with one.
- Why stick with a PG that has basically proven without a doubt that he can’t shoot…
November 5th, 2007 at 5:31 pm
We bagged on Hill for never sticking with a rotation, and now we bag on PJ for sticking with one.
- Why stick with a PG that has basically proven without a doubt that he can’t shoot…
November 5th, 2007 at 5:32 pm
For the sick defense that he supposedly plays.
November 5th, 2007 at 5:33 pm
and because the offense runs like a well-oiled machine when he’s in there
November 5th, 2007 at 6:04 pm
“I hope no one really thinks that Damien is going to keep up an eFG% of .512 all season long. Over his career he’s posted an eFG of .471. ”
Who the f^ck cares what % Wilkins shoots. Nobody can doubt he is an above average shooter for a guy who lives on the perimeter. He is terrible on defense which is why the Sonics have played the exact same ball as last year so far. They have no 4th qtr defense. And if you dont D up in the 4th you will lose almost any lead on any night in this league. With the Suns maybe being the only exception.
Bottom line is that in the NBA offense only keeps you in the game with a chance to win. How many 4th qtr stops is what determines any close game. There are alot of guys not playing pro that can shoot better than alot of pros so scoring comes alot easier than stopping in the NBA, IMO.
November 5th, 2007 at 6:15 pm
Of course 3 games isn’t meaningful but I was curious to see what it showed and talk ball over politics again. Next general stat check probably at 10 games.
November 5th, 2007 at 6:34 pm
Dick Tate Says:
November 5th, 2007 at 4:35 pm
“Did you really expect the Sonics to win these three games? I’m just happy (and surprised) they’ve been competitive through 3 quarters up to this point. Give them some time and they’ll get these 4th quarters figured out.
What’s with me playing optimist vs you? Did we enter some kind of bizzaro world?”
No, I didn’t expect them to really be in these games. I figured they’d get blown out against Denver, lose close to Phoenix, and maybe steal one in LA. So no big deal, no big disappointment so far.
Yeah, I know they’ll figure it out, and I’m not calling for wholesale changes after 3 games. I suspect PJ is following a script in some ways, and before long the lineups and rotation issues will get worked out and the team will start to gel.
My only real beef after 3 games is with the apparent roles of certain players (Watson, Wilkins, Wally) but with the injuries to Thomas and Swift, everybody who should eventually be coming off the bench is getting pushed up in playing time so in due time I’m sure that too will change.
All things considered (is it AK or Myk who always says that?) I’m reasonably content and in some ways pleasantly surprised, and looking ahead to a bright future for the team.
By the way - I may be a homer, but I think Durant is gonna be a Top 10 NBA player within 2 years, and Top 5 within 3.
November 5th, 2007 at 6:35 pm
How much do the Sonics miss Ray Allen right now? Especially after that dagger?
http://www.clutch3.com
November 5th, 2007 at 7:00 pm
Thomas, Green and maybe Ridnour will improve the fourth quarter meltdowns.
November 5th, 2007 at 7:28 pm
phenom Says:
November 5th, 2007 at 7:00 pm
“Thomas, Green and maybe Ridnour will improve the fourth quarter meltdowns.”
Good point on Thomas and Green - it looks like Wilcox and Collison are just gassed by the time the 4th Q rolls around.
As for Luke playing in the 4th, I hope you’re right. The thing that’s so exasperating about Watson is his lack of judgment in decision-making. I’m watching the Clipper game now and there often isn’t a lot of purpose behind what he does…which is scary after being in the league for 5-6 years.
November 5th, 2007 at 8:21 pm
the sonics should start luke at the 1 and green at the 3..watson is killing the offensive and wilkens has really bad shot selection. luke is a true pg and will get the ball to the right players at crunch time. green will play within the offensive.
November 5th, 2007 at 8:21 pm
the sonics should start luke at the 1 and green at the 3..watson is killing the offensive and wilkens has really bad shot selection. luke is a true pg and will get the ball to the right players at crunch time. green will play within the offensive.
November 5th, 2007 at 8:53 pm
Anyone know what conversation this OK guy is referring to?? Bennett talking about selling the team?
http://okcsonics.blogspot.com/2007/11/sterns-influence-on-sonics-fate-cant-be.html
November 5th, 2007 at 9:16 pm
tsk tsk tsk…ridnour/west playing small roles is the problem with the team…no other reason besides that they are young. Wilkins is playing well ONLY because his jump shots are falling. If he missed 1 or 2 shots more per game everyone would be all over him. He is a liability on defense more than i thought because he is lazy and cherry picks.
November 5th, 2007 at 9:21 pm
Wally’s effenciency is not good. Like said previously..he needs to abandon the drive and get kick outs from Ridnour/West/Green/Wilkins.
Ridnour/West - they are just much better players than Watson. Watson must be Steve Nash in practice or something.
Durant - the real deal
Wilcox - is he finally getting some respect? he has always played this way since his 2nd year. He just happens not to get the opportunities all the time.
Wilkins - shot well the first game, played well offensively the 3rd game..other than he has been a liability even though the stat sheet says differently.
Green - bring him along like you have..then at the end of the year if he isn’t burned out start him to see what he can do playing 30-40 mpg.
Collison - looks slow but gets the job done with his rebounding.
November 5th, 2007 at 9:54 pm
Unless certain players are being showcased to make them tradeable, I agree with Courtsense, who said, “My only real beef after 3 games is with the apparent roles of certain players (Watson, Wilkins, Wally). . . ”
Unfortunately, Wally & Watson look like a collective $18 million bust for each of the next two years. AK1984’s ideas about trading them for expiring contracts sounds mighty tempting right now.
After this experiment is over, I look forward to sitting those three guys in favor of Luke, West and Gelabale. All three are passers, who will add to the culture of team play. Wilkins and Watson are stifling the passing game.
November 5th, 2007 at 9:56 pm
Question, what value was Fortson’s expiring contract?
November 5th, 2007 at 10:48 pm
Rock Says:
November 5th, 2007 at 9:56 pm
“Question, what value was Fortson’s expiring contract?”
Wasn’t it around $6.6 million?
November 5th, 2007 at 10:58 pm
I meant, what benefit did the Sonics get by having Fortson’s salary expire?
November 5th, 2007 at 11:28 pm
Rock Says:
November 5th, 2007 at 10:58 pm
“I meant, what benefit did the Sonics get by having Fortson’s salary expire?”
His salary came off the books. Beyond that you’d have to ask Rick Sund, as it was his idea to keep Fortson around all year.
November 6th, 2007 at 12:12 am
Danny brought the tooth fairy to practice from time to time too.
November 6th, 2007 at 1:35 am
danny fortson was the glue that kept the team together!
/SARCASM
November 6th, 2007 at 1:46 am
“Question, what value was Fortson’s expiring contract?”
team unity
November 6th, 2007 at 1:48 am
Unless certain players are being showcased to make them tradeable, I agree with Courtsense, who said, “My only real beef after 3 games is with the apparent roles of certain players (Watson, Wilkins, Wally). . . ”
WHAT DO YOU GET FOR THAT?
November 6th, 2007 at 1:51 am
I’ve seen some peeps say “start Luke”
Does that make any difference whatsoever? lets be honest
November 6th, 2007 at 1:53 am
“How much do the Sonics miss Ray Allen right now? Especially after that dagger?”
Does that really make a difference? We could easily still be 0-3 with Ray. We don’t have KG or Pierce.
November 6th, 2007 at 2:00 am
“I meant, what benefit did the Sonics get by having Fortson’s salary expire?”
More food leftover at the team’s brunches.
November 6th, 2007 at 2:03 am
“Wally’s effenciency is not good. Like said previously..he needs to abandon the drive and get kick outs from Ridnour/West/Green/Wilkins.”
Unfortunately he feels he has to do more than he needs to, simply because our point guard situation blows. Guaranteed a guy like a Tony Parker turns him into a 50% FG shooter.
November 6th, 2007 at 3:41 am
Fortson’s contract isn’t being paid anymore but if he had been traded that person’s contract would be. The value is not paying money to a slug anymore. All you could get for Fortson would likely be a slug. Seattle used a slug to get Fortson in the first place. IMO Fortson was untradeable anyway so I think the issue is moot.
November 6th, 2007 at 6:49 am
“I meant, what benefit did the Sonics get by having Fortson’s salary expire?”
I don’t think I understand your question. Are you asking specifically with Fortson as in why did they keep him around till the end of the season instead of buying him out? Or are you asking what did they get in general?
They kept him around in case they were able to find a deal they wanted to make this last summer where his contract would have been very valuable. That deal didn’t materialize so they let him go.
In general Danny’s benefit was nothing more than allowing for future flexibility by letting him expire without a future contract offer.
November 6th, 2007 at 7:41 am
Percy Allen is saying in a footnote today that Wilkins early termination option is this coming summer 2008.
November 6th, 2007 at 8:48 am
sorry to break up the b-ball party,but read this am p.i. editorial page.bottom left.what kind of bs is that!? email them now.
save our sonics!!
November 6th, 2007 at 8:58 am
As I see it, Fortson is an example of having a contract expire without getting any real benefit, other than finally ending the contract. Sign & trades give a benefit, but only if the GM makes such a trade.
That is why trading for Wally was so abominable, because the Sonics could end up paying $25 million with no benefit other than finally getting to renounce him after two years of having Wally in the locker room eating cap space and dollars that ought to be paid to somebody good.
I would rather pay big money to a single star than pay $21 million to Wally, Watson & Wilkins combined. The showcasing of these 3 ended up with 2 busts so far. But Wilkins showcased very well. Now be rid of him. His contract has a player option for the last two years, making him a probable free agent next summer. Trade Wilkins now.
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/sonics/2003996162_soni06.html
Last line explains Wilkins’ contract.
The plan to showcase the
November 6th, 2007 at 9:02 am
can you believe the f****ng P.I.!!!1
November 6th, 2007 at 10:01 am
“That is why trading for Wally was so abominable, because the Sonics could end up paying $25 million with no benefit other than finally getting to renounce him after two years of having Wally in the locker room eating cap space and dollars that ought to be paid to somebody good.”
What’s been wrong with Wally in the locker room?
The thing people seem to not get is that they didn’t trade for Wally, he was the contract piece they had to take back to make the deal work. They dealt for Jeff Green and Delonte West.
They could also deal Wally for someone else. Even if they let his contract expire, that does free up the space a year earlier than it owuld have otherwise been freed up. Whether you like that or not it is of some value to a franchise.
November 6th, 2007 at 10:13 am
“- At what point do Earl supporters come out and admit that he isn’t playing good defense this year. He has been torched all three games…and it is in no way debateable that Luke runs a more efficient offense. Come on now…”
Come on now? WTF is Luke Ridnour not playing, ’cause nobody besides you sees his immense potential? Did you mean to imply that because Watson is a dismal shooter that somehow means Luke Ridnour can shoot? Get over it.
God man, you need to let go. Yes, I would say that I used to be a “Watson supporter”, however, his play as of late has been horrible and accordingly I’m not so high on him anymore. You on the other hand get absolutely butt-hurt everytime someone mentions Watson and defense as if Luke actually has something to add to this conversation. Get over it. Our point guard situation is dismal and your golden boy is a big part of that problem.
November 6th, 2007 at 10:24 am
“Nobody can doubt [Wilkins] is an above average shooter for a guy who lives on the perimeter. ”
Just because you don’t understand the stats don’t make them valuable. Your point is like saying Willie Bloomquist is an above average hitter because he’s batting .425 in his last 12 at bats. When the reality is he has never been an above average hitter over the course of the season in any point in his life.
I repeat that the only thing Damien is bringing to the table is shooting and that will eventually cool down.
November 6th, 2007 at 10:45 am
Damien shot very well last year, as well. Admit it! He is finally getting his chance to play major miniutes and has a defined role on this team. The PI makes the point very well. Each year in the league something different was expected from him. This year we need him to start, score, keep the pressure off Green and play defense. He is doing it all. He may opt out of his contract if he puts up numbers like this all year which he probably will. I am happy to see him do well and if you recall predicted this before the season when most of the posters on this board told me he had no trade value and was pretty worthless.
November 6th, 2007 at 10:52 am
I repeat that the only thing Damien is bringing to the table is shooting and that will eventually cool down.
So being the best defender at his position as well as the 7 boards & 4 assists per game are completely meaningless? Real objective viewpoint you’ve got going there, Steve.
November 6th, 2007 at 11:03 am
“So being the best defender at his position as well as the 7 boards & 4 assists per game are completely meaningless? Real objective viewpoint you’ve got going there, Steve.
Hey man, we don’t understand the stats. He’s just dropping a lil’ reality on us :\
November 6th, 2007 at 12:10 pm
I’ve always been a supporter of Damien, I love 2nd round and undrafted picks that we make. A great deal of the time they end up doing very well for themselves in the league.
I would hope that we could all remember that we are only 3 games in and have played some very, very impressive teams. The reality that should be dropping on us(and I think this is a broken record statement) is that the Sonics can play with ANYBODY through 3. It is that 4th quarter that needs to be fixed. Disallowing transition points via-turnovers is really the biggest thing that is keeping this team from winning. That will change when one of the Sonics on this team steps up and starts asking for the ball in the clutch. I hope it is Kevin Durant, I think that he is going to do some things that have never been done. He may very well be playing not just at the Rookie All-Star Game level this year, but at the veteran level. The question is, do you really want Derrick Rose that much, or would you rather see this team in the playoffs?
November 6th, 2007 at 12:21 pm
I supported Earl last year, & in the offseason, & compared to Luke I’d be a fool to say anything about his defense, but I will say that Earl doesn’t seem to fit this year, like I felt he did last year. Playing alongside Ray Allen, & Rashard Lewis is different, & he did that better than anyone we had imo. In reality he’s a quality backup who can start when your starter goes down, but he’s not the kind of starter at this point that can bring a group like this together imo. I feel Luke has had his chance, & even though I don’t expect any different results from him at pg, I at least think his ability to score is legitimate enuf to give him another try. Maybe Luke as the 4th qrtr guy can help us to get some sorely needed buckets when we need them. Don’t get it twisted though, Luke’s not THAT much better than Earl, & so for some those supporters of his who bash Earl, I say take a rest.
Both guys can play point guard in this league, but neither RUN the point consistently, & there’s a difference there. We need someone who can run the point night in, and night out imo…
November 6th, 2007 at 1:43 pm
“In reality he’s a quality backup who can start when your starter goes down, but he’s not the kind of starter at this point that can bring a group like this together imo.”
I think that nicely sums up both Earl and Luke.
December 18th, 2007 at 5:03 pm
Father Jonathan - FOX News
Father JonathanFOX News-Feb 8, 2007In the quotes below, notice how these executives are using the same terminology for digital communication
March 26th, 2008 at 8:45 pm
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