11/14/07 Box Score: Sonics 104 Heat 95
Posted on Wednesday, November 14th, 2007 at 10:04 pm by Big Chris
Sonics Win! Sonics Win!!! It wouldn’t be news at any other time, but it certainly feels good to get that first win of the season. It feels especially good to do it in Dwyane Wade’s season debut.
Chris Wilcox played well going for 20 points and 10 boards. Damien Wilkins poured in 19 points on an efficient 7 of 11 shooting. Kevin Durant contributed 18 points, and has scored in double figures in all 9 games thus far. Nick Collison earned his paycheck tonight too, with 9 points and 11 boards. Delonte West has 16 points and 6 assists, and areally big 3 point shot late in the game that seemed to seal the win.
Clanq…err…Shaq looked like a shell of his former self. The Sonics outrebounded the Heat 52 to 34.
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| Seattle | ||||||||||||
| Name | Min | FG | 3Pt | FT | Off | Reb | Ast | TO | Stl | Blk | PF | Pts |
| K. Durant | 33 | 6-16 | 3-6 | 3-4 | 2 | 5 | 1 | 5 | 1 | 0 | 2 | 18 |
| E. Watson | 26 | 2-4 | 1-1 | 3-4 | 0 | 2 | 6 | 3 | 0 | 0 | 2 | 8 |
| C. Wilcox | 32 | 8-11 | 0-0 | 4-4 | 3 | 10 | 2 | 1 | 3 | 0 | 3 | 20 |
| D. Wilkins | 36 | 7-11 | 3-5 | 2-3 | 0 | 5 | 2 | 3 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 19 |
| K. Thomas | 13 | 1-4 | 0-0 | 0-0 | 1 | 9 | 2 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 2 | 2 |
| D. West | 29 | 4-10 | 3-5 | 5-6 | 2 | 4 | 6 | 3 | 0 | 0 | 2 | 16 |
| N. Collison | 28 | 3-7 | 0-0 | 3-4 | 2 | 11 | 2 | 2 | 1 | 1 | 5 | 9 |
| J. Green | 18 | 3-4 | 0-0 | 0-0 | 2 | 4 | 1 | 3 | 0 | 1 | 3 | 6 |
| W. Szczerbiak | 17 | 3-6 | 0-2 | 0-0 | 0 | 2 | 1 | 2 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 6 |
| J. Petro | 3 | 0-2 | 0-0 | 0-0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 0 |
| M. Gelabale | DNP - Coach’s Decision | |||||||||||
| L. Ridnour | DNP - Coach’s Decision | |||||||||||
| M. Sene | DNP - Coach’s Decision | |||||||||||
| R. Swift | DNP - Coach’s Decision | |||||||||||
| Totals | 235 | 37-75 | 10-19 | 20-25 | 12 | 52 | 23 | 22 | 5 | 2 | 22 | 104 |
| Percentages: | .493 | .526 | .800 | Team Rebounds: 9 |
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| Miami | ||||||||||||
| Name | Min | FG | 3Pt | FT | Off | Reb | Ast | TO | Stl | Blk | PF | Pts |
| R. Davis | 37 | 5-18 | 0-4 | 9-9 | 1 | 3 | 4 | 2 | 2 | 0 | 2 | 19 |
| J. Williams | 32 | 5-13 | 4-8 | 0-0 | 1 | 2 | 1 | 0 | 2 | 0 | 1 | 14 |
| U. Haslem | 33 | 3-10 | 0-0 | 3-4 | 1 | 11 | 0 | 2 | 2 | 1 | 2 | 9 |
| A. Hardaway | 23 | 1-6 | 0-3 | 0-0 | 0 | 1 | 4 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 2 |
| S. O’Neal | 16 | 4-4 | 0-0 | 2-2 | 2 | 3 | 0 | 3 | 0 | 0 | 4 | 10 |
| D. Wade | 24 | 5-9 | 0-2 | 5-8 | 1 | 1 | 5 | 2 | 3 | 1 | 3 | 15 |
| A. Mourning | 23 | 4-9 | 0-0 | 5-9 | 3 | 6 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 13 |
| S. Parker | 16 | 0-4 | 0-2 | 0-0 | 1 | 2 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 0 |
| M. Blount | 15 | 2-4 | 1-2 | 0-1 | 0 | 3 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 5 |
| D. Cook | 8 | 2-5 | 1-4 | 0-0 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 5 |
| A. Johnson | 6 | 1-1 | 1-1 | 0-0 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 2 | 0 | 3 | 3 |
| J. Anthony | DNP - Coach’s Decision | |||||||||||
| E. Barron | DNP - Coach’s Decision | |||||||||||
| C. Quinn | DNP - Coach’s Decision | |||||||||||
| D. Wright | DNP - Coach’s Decision | |||||||||||
| Totals | 233 | 32-83 | 7-26 | 24-33 | 11 | 34 | 15 | 12 | 14 | 3 | 18 | 95 |
| Percentages: | .386 | .269 | .727 | Team Rebounds: 8 |
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| Game Info | ||||||||||||
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Technical Fouls: |
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PopcornMachine’s GameFlow
Plus/Minus
Chris Wilcox had a strong night across the board, especially in +/- with a +24. Kurt Thomas was +10, Delonte West +9 and Damien Wilkins +8 for the night.
Help Value (hv=Reb+Ast+Blk+Stl-TO)
Chris Wilcox also led in this area at +14. Nick Collison was +13 and Kurt Thomas +11.
November 14th, 2007 at 10:13 pm
Sonics finally hold a lead in the 4th quarter! Next up: maintaining that lead instead of letting the other team back in. Still look pretty shaky against any kind of press. 22 tos definitely a problem. Durant right now is a turnover waiting to happen.
Congratulations, Sonics!
November 14th, 2007 at 10:22 pm
Thank god they win, I can finally shave!
Jeff Green was out there closing out the game, wise decision by PJ. He has been simply solid, he deserves the playing time down the stretch.
Unfortunately Kurt Thomas hurt himself again. He has been the most solid player defensively this year.
Good win, but we are still 1-8.
Finally, man, does Shaq look ever so over-the-hill to y’all? He moves just like Patrick Ewing toward the end of his career.
It was a sad sight, Shaq is literally a liability out there. He is too slow to rotate on defense, when he was out of the game, the Heat runs so much smoother.
A sad sight indeed
November 14th, 2007 at 10:24 pm
“Clanq…err…Shaq looked like a shell of his former self. The Sonics outrebounded the Heat 52 to 34.”
Wow, Earl Barron might currently be a better option at center for the Miami Heat than Shaquille O’Neal. Excluding that bit of hyperbole, however, O’Neal is really falling apart at the seams. The NBA, without a doubt, is quickly nearing the end of an astonishingly dominant era.
November 14th, 2007 at 10:31 pm
Derick McKey with a better handle and a better scorer, that’s a bad comparison, but all I got for Jeff Green right now.
November 14th, 2007 at 10:55 pm
I have a feeling that Jeff Green is going to be one of my all-time favorite players when all is said and done. He epitomizes the word “solid.” Reminds me a little bit of Josh Howard.
AK1984, that’s your cue to call me an imbecile and prove your superior knowledge and intellect by quoting some irrelevant, recently invented statistic that conclusively proves Jeff Green is, in fact, the exact opposite of Josh Howard. Also, I think Kevin Durant is really, really good and I am quite sure you have never scored more than 6 points in any game of organized basketball if you believe otherwise. Why do you make it a point to rip on Durant on a daily basis? We’re not blind; we see his flaws but we also see the undeniable talent.
November 14th, 2007 at 10:56 pm
“Finally, man, does Shaq look ever so over-the-hill to y’all? He moves just like Patrick Ewing toward the end of his career.
It was a sad sight, Shaq is literally a liability out there. He is too slow to rotate on defense, when he was out of the game, the Heat runs so much smoother.”
I might be the only guy who didn’t mind the Seattle Supersonics paying $14,000,000 for one season of an over-the-hill, washed-up Patrick Ewing. The 2000-2001 Seattle Supersonics weren’t dragged down by Ewing’s so-so production, however, but rather Vin Baker’s rapid descent into a seemingly never-ending abyss. An extremely undersized bench of Jelani McCoy, Ruben Patterson, Desmond Mason, Shammond Williams, and Emaunal Davis didn’t help matters, though.
November 14th, 2007 at 11:03 pm
An aggressive Derrick Mckey with more bulk.
November 14th, 2007 at 11:09 pm
Derick McKey with a better handle and a better scorer, that’s a bad comparison, but all I got for Jeff Green right now.
Actually, on that back door cut in the 4th quarter that he received the pass from Collison and then elevated and extended to throw it down with one hand, it reminded me of a very young James Worthy going to the rack. Quick off his feet, smooth elevating and extending with the simple one handed finish at the rack.
November 14th, 2007 at 11:14 pm
Attendance only 8,000 in New Orleans tonight- They’re 7-2, tied for the 2nd best record in the west.
November 14th, 2007 at 11:14 pm
Attendance only 8,000 in New Orleans tonight- They’re 7-2, tied for the 2nd best record in the west.
November 14th, 2007 at 11:17 pm
Jeff Green looks like A.C Green. Facially and their uprightness, they are similar.
November 14th, 2007 at 11:22 pm
Anybody bite on the ticket package for the Pacers, Raptors, and Celtics that KC was promoting during tonight’s game? Smart marketing on the part of the promotions team to use the Celtics to induce people to buy tickets for the Pacers game.
November 14th, 2007 at 11:23 pm
Watching Shaq tonight made me feel old. At the same time it was great to put him in foul trouble early.
I hope KT is OK. 9 boards in the first half.
Green is sweet. I think he will only get better offensively. Pretty cool to see a guy his size run the floor the way he does. He had a huge block late in the game….I think on Wade. It was nice to see him in at the end of the game. Now we just need him to start the game too. Good things seem to happen when he is in.
D Wilk played well tonight. His early 3s were huge for us. I even thought Earl was ok. He shot 50% and he pushed the ball well early in the game.
November 14th, 2007 at 11:35 pm
Wilkins is giving us solid play night in and night out. It is Durant that is constantly dribbling into trouble and turning the ball over. If KD wasn’t so talented, folks on this board would be all over PJ to bench him. If he played on a team with veteran stars he would be sitting alot of the time. On a young team where the expectations are high he is given the playing time to learn on the job. IMO, Green’s play is helping more than KD.
November 15th, 2007 at 12:07 am
“AK1984, that’s your cue to call me an imbecile and prove your superior knowledge and intellect by quoting some irrelevant, recently invented statistic that conclusively proves Jeff Green is, in fact, the exact opposite of Josh Howard. Also, I think Kevin Durant is really, really good and I am quite sure you have never scored more than 6 points in any game of organized basketball if you believe otherwise. Why do you make it a point to rip on Durant on a daily basis? We’re not blind; we see his flaws but we also see the undeniable talent.” {Sam K}
Actually, I’ve come around a decent amount on Jeff Green. I don’t see the similarities between Green and Josh Howard, however. Howard relies way more on pure athleticism, while Green gets by with his high basketball acumen and versatile skill set.
All in all, I prefer the James Worthy comparison to Green — especially over the asinine expectations during the pre-season that he was the second-coming of Scottie Pippen — thus, it’s pretty obvious that my negative first impression of him was relatively off base.
November 15th, 2007 at 12:24 am
Kevin Durant is overrated. There. I said it.
Here’s what it comes down to: he should be coming into games to see what he can do, not what he *has* to do, ie fill the role of Allen/Lewis. The ideal situation would for him to be checking into games–yes, coming off the bench–and taking his time to learn the game, aka Kobe Byrant his rookie year. The expectations will ruin this guy’s year if PJ doesn’t put the brakes on just a bit. And he probably has the highest expectations of anybody, so young and being the ’star’ of an NBA team and all. In just a few years, he’ll no doubt be one of the league’s best. But these are things best not to rush. It’s a shame management has put him–and the team–in this position.
November 15th, 2007 at 12:48 am
Nebby, the idea of bringing Durant off the bench is interesting. Coming off the bench may help him build some momentum against the other team’s second tier players. There’s no shame in coming off the bench. Manu Ginobli was the best offensive player in the NBA efficiency-wise coming into this week. Jason Terry is another example of a guy coming off the bench having the best season of his career offensively. Who starts a game is not as important as who finishes a game.
November 15th, 2007 at 1:08 am
That’s not a bad idea. Maybe starting Green in front of KD will help him take it a little bit slower. Just seems like KD is trying to do a million things at once. I’m all for it.
November 15th, 2007 at 1:46 am
During the 1st four games everyone couldn’t stop talking how great Durant & how much of mistake Green was for the 5th pick. Now its like the opposite, wow Green should start & Durant bench…What the hell? Durant should continue to start & take volume shots. Durant will eventually start hitting his stroke again…As for Green, as great as he’s been playing…I still feel he should still come off the bench. Just give Green more PT…
All that aside, the Sonics future looks great with these two amazing rookies. Man i just can’t imagine how great they going to be in 4 years. Just hope they still here in WA.
November 15th, 2007 at 1:50 am
Are you guys serious?
Kevin Durant needs to be starting. Benching your franchise player in the making is not an option.
Besides, Durant is improving every game. He has learned to attack the rim when his shots ain’t falling. If you take him out of the starting line-up now, you are basically stagnating his improvements.
November 15th, 2007 at 1:52 am
Didn’t see the game. What exactly happened to Kurt Thomas?
November 15th, 2007 at 2:09 am
Well, nobodys knocking KD. Some just want to see how he plays off the bench.
November 15th, 2007 at 2:15 am
http://rivalshoops.rivals.com/content.asp?SID=910&CID=727515
Derrick Rose ranked #8? What up with that.
November 15th, 2007 at 2:28 am
Lets not go crazy here, talking about benching KD. He is just in a little shooting funk. He’s a rookie, lets remember that. Eventhough he has been struggling with his shot, hes doing a lot of good things while he’s on the court. For one, his defense has really impressed me. If there were a statistic for deflections on defense, I think Kevin Durant would lead the league, and i’m sure Jeff Green would be in the top 10. The guy can take up so much space on defense, and his hands and arms always get in the passing lanes.
November 15th, 2007 at 4:45 am
Terrible news. The Times article says Ridnour is out 2-4 weeks. That means we will likely have to go through 2-4 more weeks of Watson as our starting PG. Delonte isn’t much better seeing that he struggles to set up our offense.
November 15th, 2007 at 5:16 am
Ridnour out? Damn!
Do you guys think we should go after Marbury? Ship out Watson, Petro, & Wally for Marbury, draft pick, & cash? I believe we need another scoring threat & this will help Durant immensely…His defense is pretty good & is one of the stronger PGs out there. If he doesn’t work out, just dont play him or buy him out…
November 15th, 2007 at 6:47 am
Ridnour out… i think a 5 game winning will happen now that PJ is forced to play only 2 point guards.
i’m tired of people saying delonte ’struggles to set up the offense’. That is entirely not true. He just doesn’t dribble around waiting for people to get open, he doesn’t mind taking the open jump shot or driving to score himself. He plays with Wally and alot of the first passes on the plays run on offense is to Wally. It takes Wally forever to get to his spots. I notice alot of Delonte’s turnovers happen because his teammates aren’t on the same page in terms of receiving passes. Delonte looks like he is about to pass but the guy isn’t looking so he does one of those awkward dribbles that almost looks like a carry.
Delonte in his last two years when starting and playing 30 minutes a game was pretty darn consistent in almost every area especially last year during the last couple months.
Delonte has had one bad game and that was the Orlando game when almost everyone had a bad game not named Jeff Green.
November 15th, 2007 at 6:48 am
Ridnour out… i think a 5 game winning will happen now that PJ is forced to play only 2 point guards.
i’m tired of people saying delonte ’struggles to set up the offense’. That is entirely not true. He just doesn’t dribble around waiting for people to get open, he doesn’t mind taking the open jump shot or driving to score himself. He plays with Wally and alot of the first passes on the plays run on offense is to Wally. It takes Wally forever to get to his spots. I notice alot of Delonte’s turnovers happen because his teammates aren’t on the same page in terms of receiving passes. Delonte looks like he is about to pass but the guy isn’t looking so he does one of those awkward dribbles that almost looks like a carry.
Delonte in his last two years when starting and playing 30 minutes a game was pretty darn consistent in almost every area especially last year during the last couple months.
Delonte has had one bad game and that was the Orlando game when almost everyone had a bad game not named Jeff Green and he still had 3 steals in the game.
November 15th, 2007 at 8:31 am
being from new york I see a lot of knicks games and marbury can ball! I know he a head case and all that drama goes with him..but when he on that court and he focus on the game of basketball he is a very good player. I was at the game last year when the sonics played the knicks and he drop 40! if the supes can get marbury for watson and petro it would help with the arena deal, fans will come out to see durant,green and marbury
November 15th, 2007 at 8:40 am
Everybody needs to chill on the benching KD issue.
Seriously, all it’ll take is two solid games of 27 and 7 with decent shooting and noone will ever even mention it again. Seriously…
November 15th, 2007 at 9:14 am
Marbury is a cancer. He is not the guy you want setting an example for the young guys on this team. He might score just enough to take us out of good draft position and doom the franchise to permanent mediocrity. If we wanted to go with veterans we should have stayed with R&R.
November 15th, 2007 at 9:27 am
Bringing a strong guy off the bench is a feature of several top teams tomaintain their strength on court throughout game and win at a high level as Alex notes. But Sonics aren’t a strong team.
Bringing Durant off bench isn’t likely baring injury or a shooting slump that lasts over a month. Right now PJ says likes he likes reliable veterans off the bench for the most part.
But putting the starting the game question aside (always overrated) you could still consider whether Durant starts as #1 option on offense in 1st quarter. I might try Wilcox as #1 in 1st quarter. If I was coach I think I’d tell Durant to ease into the game, take the best shots but also focus on passing, rebounding, accept being used as a decoy a bit so other guys get up some shots and have to be guarded. Then step up the shots in the second half and especially the 4th quarter. Other stars do that. Brandon Roy is only getting 16 shots a game. They are playing as a team and having some early sucess.
November 15th, 2007 at 9:27 am
The Heat appear to be in some big trouble…makes you wonder how happy DWade will be to resign there in a couple years…
November 15th, 2007 at 9:44 am
Where do I start? The Heat will be fine and in the playoffs. Shaq always looks terrible if he gets in foul trouble. It’s like he shuts down when two quick whistles go against him. Wade will carry them and open the floor for Shaq. Ricky Davis will get more open looks than he ever has in his career and shoot a career high FG%. KD is going a to fast. He needs to read a couple John Wooden quotes and he will be fine. “Be quick but don’t hurry” and my favorite “Don’t mistake activity for productivity.” LUKE!!! He is going to get a large lesson in patience and so will Sonics fans watching Earl every night. He hates wearing suites and I will be surprised if he has more than one in his closet. Don’t be surprised if he is back sooner than expected. Earl starting Delonte finishing with Green on the floor with him. You go to your skill players in the 4th and Jeff Green needs to be there. His basketball IQ makes him invaluable at the end of a game. He will get the rebound you need, make the pass to the right person and be in the right spot on both ends of the floor. Let’s stop comparing him to Worthy, Mckey and Mac-10 and start enjoying this highly gifted multidimensional player who will be runner up ROY.
November 15th, 2007 at 9:47 am
We can’t bring Durant off the bench; we don’t have enough shooters, especially since West will probably have to stay on the bench since we’d have no PG on the bench if both West and Watson started. The other thing is, we need his shooting on the floor.
The Heat looked terrible until Wade turned it on in the 2nd half. Shaq looks dunzo, and he’s on the books for two more years at $20M per after this one.
Back to Durant, I think his shot selection has actually gotten better, despite his poor shooting %. He’s taking it to the rack more, but he’s not getting the calls yet. I think he’s just in a bit of a slump and his confidence is down. We’ve gotta keep feeding him - he’ll break out at some point. 3 for 6 on three pointers is a good sign.
November 15th, 2007 at 9:49 am
By the way, here’s the gameflow:
http://www.popcornmachine.net/cgi-bin/gameflow.cgi?date=20071114&game=SEAMIA
November 15th, 2007 at 10:00 am
ajw - Rivals is absolutely right on this one. I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again Rose would be an awesome combo guard (same with Mayo) in the Billups mold. Especially when comes to development as point guard. It took Billups (who entered the NBA in 97-98 season) until the 01-02 season with the T-wolves to develop into a true point guard. Why? Because he was truly an undersized SG. Granted Rose and Mayo are closer to 6′4″ nearly 6′5″ range as compared to Billups barely being 6′3″ however I think comparison sticks.
The question is do the Sonics need a scoring point guard or do they need a distributor who can play defense? I would answer that they need the later much more than the former.
My suggestion all a long has been that Collision from UCLA is the guy that would fit the Sonics perfectly. He’s get the Tony Parker treatment in college (guy have to sag way off him because of his speed and he just punishes them with 3 pointers) and is projected to be a decent defender.
“Collison inherited the starting role last season and made the most of it. His minutes increased by about 14 per game, to 33, and he more than doubled his scoring average (12.7 points per games) and assist average (5.7; second in the Pac-10). He led the Pac-10 in steals (2.2) and in 3-point field-goal percentage (44.7 percent). That he shoots it so well from outside makes Collison so tough to handle because he’s one of the nation’s fastest players with the ball in hands. Defenders have to play him to drive, which gives him plenty of room to step back and shoot. He also stresses the opposition because he’s a great decision-maker (second in the Pac-10 with a 1.95-1 assist-to-turnover ratio).”
Also I got to see Ty Lawson play two night ago and he look just as quick as Collision.
“Lawson is another compact point guard with speed to burn. He’s a jet from end to end with the ball in his hands. He blows by opposing defenders to create easy opportunities for himself and his teammates. He led the ACC in assist-to-turnover ratio (2.57-1) and was third in assists per game (5.7). He also averaged a respectable 10.2 points (fourth on the team) and shot a remarkable 50 percent from the floor because he’s a great finisher in the lane. Lawson seemingly is at his best in big games, too: His three highest-scoring games came against North Carolina State (21 points), Michigan State in the NCAA Tournament (20) and Arizona (18).”
And finally Manyor is a defensive stud and could be around when the Sonics us the Phoenix draft pick at the end of the 1st round.
“If you’re not familiar with the mid-major star, Duke fans can help you bone up. Maynor hit the 15-foot jumper with 1.8 seconds left that gave the Rams a 79-77 win over the Blue Devils in the first round of the NCAA Tournament. It capped a 22-point, eight-assist performance that served notice VCU is a program to be taken seriously. For the season, Maynor averaged 13.9 points, 6.4 assists and 4.2 rebounds, and his 3.07-1 assist-to-turnover ratio was one of the best in the nation. He followed it up by making the U.S. team for the Pan Am Games, but was limited to only two games because of a hip injury. His decision-making and defensive prowess are as good as you’ll find.”
ajw thanks for the rivals link.
November 15th, 2007 at 10:02 am
PG comparison from the gameflow:
Watson started out very strong with a +7 in the first quarter before he was subbed, but he went -8 in the second half to finish at -1 for the game.
West came in for the rest of the first half and went +13… this was when the team was most effective and built the big halftime lead. However, West also had a bad 2nd half, including -3 in the 4th quarter. Still, he finished at +9 for the game.
The common denominator was Chris Wilcox. both point guards (or, better said, the team in general) did well when he was in the game. Wilcox finished at +20 for the game.
The other interesting thing is that we didn’t do particularly well with Watson and West on the floor at the same time. Our lead dropped to the lowest point since early in the 4th when we played both of those guys together, and it rebounded a bit when Watson was taken out. Of course, this roughly corresponds to the stretch when Miami was pressuring us and D-Wade had 5 assists and 3 steals. Still, both PGs did a poor job of breaking pressure in the 4th quarter.
November 15th, 2007 at 10:05 am
Maynor sounds really intriguing. I’ve never seen him play but from the scouting report he’s just what we’d need. Still, I missing having big point guards (nate, gary)… and Rose would fit in to our running system perfectly.
November 15th, 2007 at 10:12 am
A nationally syndicated article by Peter Vecsey (New York Post) wonders about the personnel moves made by the Sonics.
http://msn.foxsports.com/nba/story/7442232
The ever-sarcastuc author concluded by stating, “I can’t imagine Clay Bennett’s motive for self-destruction.”
November 15th, 2007 at 10:15 am
ajw, Rose is the only freshman on that list. They probably are starting him low and will let his game decide how far / how fast he should rise. Starting at top based on high school might be a bit questionable and would be jumping to the conclusion. Starting low they can milk the rise.
November 15th, 2007 at 10:27 am
Yes, there’s no way Durant will ever come off the bench on this team. Guess I come from an old-school thought of coaching: rookies never start. Especially rookies with just one year of college under their belt. I like making players earn their stripes. Back in the real world, Durant in the starting line-up is more of marketing move if anything: the team has to have *some* star to help move tickets (both home and away). I just hope PJ guides his development away from taking so many shots to focusing on being a playmaker, particulary on the fastbreak (which this team should be doing as much as possible–everybody sans Swift is very fast). Durant is showing signs of being an amazing passer–he can draw the defense and with those long arms dish the ball out with precision. These first few games were about showing everybody he is worth the money (mainly from Nike)–now it’s about showing how he can make the team better–and he will.
November 15th, 2007 at 10:28 am
Now that we’ve got the first win out of the way, hopefully the crunch time jitters will start to subside. And with such a young team that has a lot of depth, that’s a prime recipe for running teams out of the gym (especially against older teams playing on the second of a back to back).
November 15th, 2007 at 10:39 am
My suggestion all a long has been that Collision from UCLA is the guy that would fit the Sonics perfectly. He’s get the Tony Parker treatment in college (guy have to sag way off him because of his speed and he just punishes them with 3 pointers) and is projected to be a decent defender.
- I’ll make a bold prediction and say that Collison will not be anything more than a Darrell Armstrong type player in the NBA. He does not have the size to do what he does against NBA players.
A nationally syndicated article by Peter Vecsey (New York Post) wonders about the personnel moves made by the Sonics.
- Wonder if he wrote the article in a Toys R Us
November 15th, 2007 at 10:41 am
Wow…im not sure if can “imagine” a worse article than the one Vescey wrote…well at least not one written by someone outside of OKC
November 15th, 2007 at 10:52 am
Woo-hoo! That was a solid, solid win. The Heat were hacking & pushing & grabbing our guards like crazy in the second half & getting away with it. Both West & Watson had maybe 1 or 2 TO’s in the midst of the Riley-ordered hack-a-Supe “we’re champs & we’ve got 2 superstars & i’ve won 6 (8?) titles so the refs won’t have the balls to call it” defense, but each was also blatantly fouled about 6-8 times.
How many Sonics teams of the last 10 years would have been able to withstand that kind of pressure, hit big shots, pound the ball inside for points, and win ON THE ROAD against a confident, veteran team? Not many.
November 15th, 2007 at 11:01 am
No more short PG’s please.
November 15th, 2007 at 11:04 am
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/dailydime?page=dime-071115
David Thorpe and his Yi is better than KD article. The Bucks have played who? 3 wins at home with one of them being the Grizz. KD has seen Raja Bell and AK47 in his grill and still scored 20+. Whatever!!
November 15th, 2007 at 11:10 am
Myk - Armstrong was solid defender, in fact, he still is despite be 39 year old. For a 4 year stretch (98-99 season to 01-02 season) he was in the 10 ten in both Steals per game and 3PT percentage.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/a/armstda01.html
Right now I’d kill to have a guy like Armstrong in is prime on the Sonics. I think a guy like Collision or Manyor will be available with our second 1st round pick from Phoenix. If that is the case, then we can draft a guy like Rose, Beasley, Mayo or Unknown hyped stud from this up coming college basketball season with our top 1st round pick. That would be my recipe to curse the Sonics. Feel free to bash it.
November 15th, 2007 at 11:30 am
Durant and Yi are both shooting about the same TS% - and both are terrible so far. Yi is a better rebounder by quite a bit, otherwise they are about the same. Given the volume of shots Durant takes, his poor shooting % is easier to explain than Yi’s.
November 15th, 2007 at 11:33 am
Dork - Thorpe did have this to say about Green:
“6. Jeff Green, Sonics: Green is third in scoring and fifth in rebounding among rookies. Now if he and KD can win a few games he may be moving up this list.”
And I agree with Thorpe, Yi isn’t pressing. Why? Because he freakin’ Michael Redd on his team along with a solid supporting cast. Where as Durant is the franchise.
November 15th, 2007 at 12:06 pm
Imagine how easy KD would be scoring with Ray, Rashard or both on the court with him. Win #2 and 3 coming in Atlanta and Charlotte. Durant breaks out the next two games. Dropping 30+ in one or both.
November 15th, 2007 at 12:07 pm
“Imagine how easy KD would be scoring with Ray, Rashard or both on the court with him”
Imagine how easily the other team would be scoring.
November 15th, 2007 at 12:46 pm
I’m surprised that no one has brought up Mitch’s 23 minute interview with Deputy Mayor Tim Ceis today about what’s been happening and what they have in the works regarding the arena situation. I’d break it down but don’t have the time.
Audio link
November 15th, 2007 at 12:55 pm
It’s great to finally have a win to talk about!
The expectations will ruin this guy’s year if PJ doesn’t put the brakes on just a bit. And he probably has the highest expectations of anybody, so young and being the ’star’ of an NBA team and all. In just a few years, he’ll no doubt be one of the league’s best. But these are things best not to rush.
16 shots last night was just about right where he should be on a game-to-game basis, based on this roster, imo. 20+ is too many.
It’s a shame management has put him–and the team–in this position.
I agree.
I was at the game last year when the sonics played the knicks and he drop 40!
I remember that game. At the end of the game, Marbury breaks the play, calls his own number, tosses a deep deep three point brick early in the clock, and the Sonics win.
Marbury is a loser.
November 15th, 2007 at 1:04 pm
Finally a win..we better savor it. Now I did not watch Durant much in college but I have been watching his shooting struggles and noticed something. He seems to shoot the ball very flat and also seems to fade back with his weight falling backwards during his shots. Is this how he has always shot or is he just rushing these shots and forgot about the basics?
November 15th, 2007 at 1:04 pm
“- I’ll make a bold prediction and say that Collison will not be anything more than a Darrell Armstrong type player in the NBA. He does not have the size to do what he does against NBA players.”
That’s exactly what I thought when I watched Collison. That and he kind of reminded me of Lindsey Hunter. I don’t doubt Collison can play, but he probably won’t be anything more than an elite backup point guard, much like Greg Anthony was for us.
D.J Augustin would be interesting considering he and Durant played really well together and he’s a “pass-first” type.
Derrick Rose on at 6:00 pm tonight on ESPN2!
November 15th, 2007 at 1:07 pm
“Marbury is a loser.”
Plus his shoes shred my ankles on the court.
November 15th, 2007 at 1:15 pm
Grab bag o’ observations:
It is early and this isn’t surprising but Durant’s FG% in lower than his overall average in the 1st quarter by a fair amount. On the bright side the 4th quarter is a little above his overall average.
Right now all Sonics bench players have positive on/off on team +/- except Green (slightly negative and Swift if you put him in that group). It says something about the advantage of playing more against subs, the weakness of the starters performance to date (and PJ’s construction of that line) and it may also say something about PJ’s strategic emphasis of having pieces to bring off the bench to change the bad or maintain the good. Nate did that in 04-05.
West has a nice edge on PG opponents for rebounds but it may just be a blip as the past shows small to no edge. His inside finishing FG% has slipped.
Sonics called for 2 to 1 more offensive fouls. More ballhandling turnovers than bad passes (the opposite for opponents).
Wilcox in top 5 on FG% for PFs.
Watson, Wilkins (according to 82games) have a negative team +/- in every game so far. Durant and Green positive in only 1 of first 8.
Opponents outscoring Sonics based on higher eFG% on jumpers. Their % inside shots is no higher and no better, though I guess they are getting more foul shots from somewhere, probably a good amount from inside takes.
Defense 6 points better with Wally on court over the alternatives. Team assists up with him too. Rebounding down. Opponent free throw way up but lower total scoring trumps that.
Green on/off is mostly neutral but opponent offensive rebounding and assist go up pretty sharply.
Collison’s jumper FG% has recovered and is slighly ahead of last season. Though still 30%.
November 15th, 2007 at 1:19 pm
Right now all Sonics bench players have positive on/off on team +/- except Green (slightly negative and Swift if you put him in that group). It says something about the advantage of playing more against subs, the weakness of the starters performance to date (and PJ’s construction of that line) and it may also say something about PJ’s strategic emphasis of having pieces to bring off the bench to change the bad or maintain the good. Nate did that in 04-05.
West has a nice edge on PG opponents for rebounds but it may just be a blip as the past shows small to no edge. His inside finishing FG% has slipped.
Sonics called for 2 to 1 more offensive fouls. More ballhandling turnovers than bad passes (the opposite for opponents).
Wilcox in top 5 on FG% for PFs.
Watson, Wilkins (according to 82games) have a negative team +/- in every game so far. Durant and Green positive in only 1 of first 8.
Opponents outscoring Sonics based on higher eFG% on jumpers. Their % inside shots is no higher and no better, though I guess they are getting more foul shots from somewhere, probably a good amount from inside takes.
Defense 6 points better with Wally on court over the alternatives. Team assists up with him too. Rebounding down. Opponent free throw way up but lower total scoring trumps that.
Green on/off is mostly neutral but opponent offensive rebounding and assist go up pretty sharply.
Collison’s jumper FG% has recovered and is slighly ahead of last season. Though still 30%.
November 15th, 2007 at 1:23 pm
West seems to be getting blocked a lot when he takes it to the hoop. If he goes a little stronger, he should get those calls.
KD hasn’t had any luck with the calls from the refs.
November 15th, 2007 at 1:30 pm
Ajw your eyes are sharp and memory good. West blocked 26% on inside shots so far. It has never been above average before so hopefully it is a blip and will recede.
November 15th, 2007 at 1:46 pm
Dork after reading all of Crows posts: “Mr. Crow, may I be excused. My brain is full.”
November 15th, 2007 at 1:58 pm
Using link provided by Ted Z. here is a summary:
Ceis- Thinks it is odd Stern working with Sacramento but not us.
Seattle has been engaged in a bit of telephone contact with league office previously but has had none in last few weeks.
Working on the Key arena “expansion” (including the numbers) “that will double the square footage and probably the revenue to the team” and will probably make a summary public within a few weeks.
Mitch: Will you listen to their pitch for a new arena?
Ceis (roughly) Certainly. But where does the money and political support come from? We will be open-minded but hope the same in return.
Ceis- Bennett trying to break lease; we’re trying to enforce it. Doesnt think much will happen til judges decision is handed down.
Mitch- cost of Key proposal?
Ceis- plan still based on previous Key proposal (which would have doubled size and add the feutures prevous owner wanted), cost figures are being updated.
Cost sharing of new proposal similar to what Schultz walked away from without response.
Wants negotiations. Needs a willing partner. Not at that point yet. Might not happen. Not at that point yet either.
Mitch: When on court decision?
Probably get a date set this spring, decision probably sometime in offseason.
Absolutely no way city will agree to a voluntary negotiated release from lease.
November 15th, 2007 at 2:04 pm
Yes Mr. Dork do as you wish. Read or skip and / or go.
I know it can be thick and isn’t everyone’s cup of tea.
I’ve debated whether to continue to put highly detailed stats here or on bulletin board. Last bulletin board post got no comment so I decided to put this set here again. But will try to assess location, amount, etc. If any others want to say on blog or bulletin board, I’ll listen and then decide.
November 15th, 2007 at 2:09 pm
“I’ll make a bold prediction and say that Collison will not be anything more than a Darrell Armstrong type player in the NBA.” -MYK
Have you ever seen Collison dribble the ball down the court? He is much faster than Darrell Armstrong. Did you mean BJ Armstrong?
I’d take Collison on this team.
November 15th, 2007 at 2:13 pm
Crow, just a jab but please keep the hits coming. I love all that stuff. It just reminded me of a Far Side cartoon. Just trying to inject some levity in the middle of all the meat. So does that make me lettuce or like a chipolte sauce?
November 15th, 2007 at 2:13 pm
Keep it up Crow. You’re the most consistent and read-worthy poster on here.
November 15th, 2007 at 2:13 pm
One more stray stat:
Sonics defensive efficiency currently at 106.6. Better than previous 2 seasons. 04-05 was 106.0.
November 15th, 2007 at 2:14 pm
“The 2000-2001 Seattle Supersonics weren’t dragged down by Ewing’s so-so production, however, but rather Vin Baker’s rapid descent into a seemingly never-ending abyss. ”
That statement implies that Ewing was actually a useful player that season … not so. They brought him in specifically to fill the starting center role as a stopgap for one year, which I suppose you could say he did, but he was so far past his useful prime he really didn’t bring anything to the table.
I didn’t bother looking at the Vecsey piece, don’t care, can’t be bothered. He knows absolutely nothing about the situation up here and should be paid as little attention as possible. You’d get more informed analysis of the situation from the color guy on Hockey Night in Canada.
November 15th, 2007 at 2:14 pm
I have an apology sitting in moderation Crow. Please keep the heavy stuff coming!!!!
November 15th, 2007 at 2:17 pm
Sonics in past decade have had some seasons with 104 and 105 defensive efficiency. 1996-7 Sonics that won 57 games were at 102.5 but that was a different situation. Offense was 111.3. Today’s offense is at 97.7.
November 15th, 2007 at 2:18 pm
Mr. Mcwally, me again, you know the guy that knows the game because I actually played it un-like yourself, who has a stat book stuck up his ass. I laugh every time I see your comments, because you got no G. You see Mcwally, stats do help see the game, and understand it. You portray yourself as someone who knows how to play the game, when we both know your a true stat clown. So instead of acting as if you know the game from every angle which it is clear that you don’t, stick to your stats, clown..
November 15th, 2007 at 2:22 pm
No prob Mr. Dork.
I’ve reacted somewhat offended or frustrated on this topic in the past but I took your jab in a mild way this time. But wanted to say I honestly accept the reaction / jab and I think I am flexible.
November 15th, 2007 at 2:25 pm
Thanks Wink.
There is lots of good stuff by many folks here.
I learn a lot from the read.
November 15th, 2007 at 2:27 pm
“Wilcox in top 5 on FG% for PFs.
Watson, Wilkins (according to 82games) have a negative team +/- in every game so far. Durant and Green positive in only 1 of first 8.”
Earl played decently and should be given a little credit for his performance last night … he also displayed some truly stupid decision making against double teams late in the game. The one possession where he was double teamed in backcourt and not only slowed down but picked up his dribble totally drove me nuts … that’s just a bonehead mistake that no PG at this level should make let alone a guy who’s been in the league 5 years or more.
Yesterday there were a number of posters talking about a lineup of West/Durant/____/Green/Wilcox. PJ finished last night’s game with that lineup plus Wilkins to good effect, at least I thought so. Green definitely has the game to play the PF spot and I would like to see more of him there. Collison IMO is just too limited offensively to close out games. He had one great feed to Green for a slam, but it seems like he’s a turnover waiting to happen nearly every time he touches the ball.
Wilcox had a great game but his style of play also happens to be perfectly suited to last night’s game plan — make Clanq move his feet & run the floor. He got in early foul trouble by being out of position and more often than not reaching in. That may not work as well with smaller and more mobile frontcourts but I believe you can say that good things are happening by utilizing more post offense rather than having the guards bomb away from the perimeter.
Luke out is a blessing in disguise if only because it gives West more of a look in. He isn’t a natural PG but is leaps and bounds ahead of Earl and Luke.
Green needs more than 18 mpg. He might be one of the two or three most consistent players on the team right now.
Regardless of his numbers last night Damien Wilkins should still be trade bait. That’s probably the best game I’ve seen him have this year but again it’s all pretty much tied into his hot shooting because right now the guy is bringing NOTHING else. When he gets the ball it’s clearly get mine, get mine, get mine. I rarely if ever see him look for other guys on the floor and he just dribbles way too much for my taste.
November 15th, 2007 at 2:28 pm
Mcwally all these guys your mentioning have you ever seen any of them play, not clips or stats, actually seen them play. Of course not but boy do you know all their stats. What would you look for to help the Sonics right now today, and who would it be, don’t go looking in your stat book, the answer is not there. If you know the game, which you don’t I would like to hear what you have to day, without any stats in front of you..
November 15th, 2007 at 2:29 pm
Mr. Dork?? No need to be so proper. Dork is just fine. Question: Which one of Atlanta’s 18 small forwards on their roster will be guarding Durant on Saturday?
November 15th, 2007 at 2:49 pm
Dork, I was just giving you a mild kidding back.
Atlanta game should be interesting.
November 15th, 2007 at 3:10 pm
Steve that 4 man group + one more is something to look at / discuss. A quick look at stats shows low minutes for that 4 foursome with only part with Green at PF but it appears they’ve played pretty even on team +/-, which is nice in the sea of bad combos. But real short minutes.
November 15th, 2007 at 3:12 pm
One idea I’ve had to increase the minutes you capture in the data is to call a group of 4-6 players your core and see what all the combos with 3 or 4 of those guys on the court do combined instead of each separately. Maybe I’ll try something like that soon. How big a core group should I have and would folks rather see the data for all lineups with 4 of the group on the court or even just 3?
November 15th, 2007 at 3:14 pm
Sorry, my Sarcasm Detector is on the fritz and I think you might want to take yours to the shop also. Correction: Atlanta on Friday not Saturday. If Kurt and Big Rob are both on the shelf Collison would start and Johan backs him up. Or does Johan back up Wilcox at 4 and Mo is backup 5. Green at the 4 is possible also. Going super small is a option also.
November 15th, 2007 at 3:18 pm
07-08 Sonics defense compared to 06-07
Lower eFG% allowed (51.6% then, 49.1% now) 0.5 more turnovers forced per game, a little lower offensive rebounds allowed, but a bit higher frequency of foul shots allowed.
November 15th, 2007 at 3:20 pm
Beantown, who is your favorite PG potentially in the draft on 1) talent, 2) for this team at this point in time? Or would you try to go veteran by trade or free agency? Or stick with one of more of the current ones?
November 15th, 2007 at 3:22 pm
I think we should change the mindset of going “small.” Doesn’t mean that you are going “skilled” not “small.” You put in a bunch of 2/3’s or 3/4’s but it is usually the ones with the best ball handling and passing skills. Maybe it should be “speed skills” instead of “small” lineup. When we go “small” it should involve KD and Green who are 6′9″/6′10″. That’s not small it’s skilled. So Strike my super small comment from the record. Agree, disagree or Dork should switch to decaf?
November 15th, 2007 at 3:27 pm
A more complicated core + lineup assessment will have to wait til later but I saw
C. Wilcox D. West J. Green
is one of the very best 3 man sets of all for team that by good chemistry or luck or both was +19 in 47 minutes together.
November 15th, 2007 at 3:28 pm
Agree D.
November 15th, 2007 at 3:36 pm
I should back up.
I should have said agree it is indeed a skilled lineup.
But Wilcox and Collison at center especially would be called small ball by most regardles sof the rest of lineup.
Green at PF have a little but need more data before drawing any conclusions. Durant at SF need more clearer data.
Would Green at C be super small ball or not that much different than Wilcox or Collison at center? I don’t know. If they are running hard it might be worth a try.
November 15th, 2007 at 3:41 pm
Have you ever seen Collison dribble the ball down the court? He is much faster than Darrell Armstrong. Did you mean BJ Armstrong?
I’d take Collison on this team.
- Ive seen Darrell Armstrong dribble the ball down the court against NBA players…Collison will not look nearly as quick as he is in College. I will freely admit that I have not seen anything in all 3 of the former UCLA guards (Farmar, Afflalo or Collison) that makes me think they will be anything other than average NBA players. UCLA plays a very college specific system that brings them lots of wins. However, when playing athletic teams (see: Huskies) they have a much harder time. That is why I think those guys will struggle.
Green definitely has the game to play the PF spot and I would like to see more of him there.
- I like Green at the PF spot too as long as he can take the guy off the dribble. For much of the 4th quarter in the Utah game he had Boozer guarding him and they should’ve tried to exploit that quickness mismatch more often.
November 15th, 2007 at 3:43 pm
Beantown - You’re right and your wrong. You’re right that I’ve haven’t seen all of these guys play in person (except for Collison when he played against Cal last season). I have seen Lawson and Manyor multiple times on TV.
I’m not all about stats. In fact, I like to think that I can mix what I’ve seen from games on TV and stats to make some interesting points. What I believe that Sonics need a is speedy point guard (Collison, Lawson, Maynor, hell even Mayo and Rose all fit that bill) that can push the tempo for the Sonics, yet aren’t a liability on defense like Ridnour and Watson. I think West is a great example of an energy that you could use to change things up when your team needs a boost, but isn’t the type of guy you want running your offense for 30 mins a night. What do you think?
Since you claim more actual basketball knowledge and know how than I possess, could you please enlighten us on which college point prospects we should be looking at?
Again, I think it’s great to have debates. Yet you’re dead set on talk shit about my ideas without offer much more than obvious statements that our 3 centers are stiffs and that our point guards are terrible. We all know this. Please offer your suggestions on how to fix things.
November 15th, 2007 at 3:43 pm
Jimmy Wolfrey makes good points regarding West running the offense. Last season per minute he had one of the lowest turnover rates among PGs. He and his teammates are still getting to know each other. Hopefully he will run the offense better here in a month or two.
November 15th, 2007 at 3:46 pm
You know what lineup I’d like to see?
Ridnour
West
Durant
Green
Wilcox
Has P.J. played this group yet? That’s a group that could really get up and down the floor.
November 15th, 2007 at 3:57 pm
Hey Everyone,
Just wanted to let Sonic Nation know that your favorite rookie, KEVIN DURANT is going to be answering questions LIVE, next week Wednesday, on Nike’s bball site
http://www.nike.com/nikebasketball/usa/?loclist=hoopstalk#hoopstalk
It’s your chance to talk with corner stone of this rebuilding process in Seattle. Check it out
November 15th, 2007 at 3:59 pm
Stats that may have no meaning. I went to look at Delonte West’s block numbers because of his Youtube highlight real involved so many blocks. I have also seen a couple sweet blocks this year also. Looking at PG block leaders 06-07: #2 Earl Watson and #4 Luke Ridnour. Yes, I will be switching to decaf.
November 15th, 2007 at 3:59 pm
B_W PJ hasnt used that 5 yet but he has used 4 of 5 together.
November 15th, 2007 at 4:08 pm
“Regardless of his numbers last night Damien Wilkins should still be trade bait. That’s probably the best game I’ve seen him have this year but again it’s all pretty much tied into his hot shooting because right now the guy is bringing NOTHING else. When he gets the ball it’s clearly get mine, get mine, get mine. I rarely if ever see him look for other guys on the floor and he just dribbles way too much for my taste.”
In defense of Damien, the few plays PJ runs for him are designed specifically for him to get the ball in a scoring opportunity. See the play him and Wilcox run off the left block, designed to get him the ball in the lane or on the wingwith no defenders.
It’s not like we have too many scoring options right now anyways, Durant is still learning how to finish in the NBA (although the criticism about him in this thread is 100% unwarranted IMO), Wally is simply too old to be a true threat, Wilcox is inconsistent to say the least, and West isn’t gelling well with our frontcourt yet.
If Damien is going to be valuable to this team, he pretty much needs to carry a scoring load, as there’s another guy right behind him (Gelabale) who can do the defense no shoot thing.
Second thing, what’s with this propensity for Wilcox to do a his little fade away turn around jumper. It’s clearly ineffective, and if he could some how become better at using pump and head fakes he could be a lot more consistent down low. That fade away just pisses me off.
And thirdly, Durant truly showed me some things last night.
People are ripping on his performance (and let’s get this straight, him coming off the bench is simply asinine), but Kevin got absolutely hacked last night, and should have had 3 or 4 more trips to the free throw stripe last night. You almost need two hands to count the number of times Alexander Johnson wacked him when he came into the lane.
Which brings up my point, the guy is learning to go to the hoop, and pretty soon it will start to pay off.
November 15th, 2007 at 4:14 pm
“Steve that 4 man group + one more is something to look at / discuss. A quick look at stats shows low minutes for that 4 foursome with only part with Green at PF but it appears they’ve played pretty even on team +/-, which is nice in the sea of bad combos. But real short minutes. ”
“How big a core group should I have and would folks rather see the data for all lineups with 4 of the group on the court or even just 3? ”
3 man sets seem easier as there’s a lot of shuffling going on at 4 and 5.
If I had to pick 6 core guys to follow they’d probably be West, Durant, Green, Wilcox, Wilkins, and Collison since they seem to be getting the bulk of the minutes … Earl kind of on the bubble but should be used more often with Rid out 2-4 weeks.
“Would Green at C be super small ball or not that much different than Wilcox or Collison at center? I don’t know. If they are running hard it might be worth a try. ”
I like Green at PF - a lot. He seems to have a nice back to the basket and face up game from about 15 ft or so in. You’re probably right that it isn’t much different than having Nick or Chris at C. I think of Green as a 4/3 and the other two guys as 4/5s. Dork has a point that it’s really going “skilled” not small with a lineup basically consisting of 4 6′9/6′10 guys and a PG.
I think as the season goes on we may see more of that West/Durant/Damien/Green/Wilcox lineup. I was real impressed with that combination and would like to see more of it in the next few games. West/Durant/Green/Nick/Wilcox too.
November 15th, 2007 at 4:21 pm
I noticed two errors in the box score printed above.
1st: It lists Petro as having played only 3 minutes. From what I remember, he was in for something just shy of an eternity.
2nd: Attendence at above 19,000? All I saw was empty seats.
November 15th, 2007 at 4:25 pm
I noticed the same thing D-G. It looked pretty damn empty in Miami last night.
November 15th, 2007 at 4:31 pm
Here’s Chad Ford option on the Sonics move from his chat warp on espn.com today.
http://proxy.espn.go.com/chat/chatESPN?event_id=18079
PaulieP (Scottsdale): What’s the latest in Seattle about the team packing up and moving to OKC?
SportsNation Chad Ford: Sure sounds like they’re gone. But this is where I lose respect for David Stern (and I have a lot of respect for Stern). As commissioner, I know he works for the owners. But there is no way Oklahoma City is a better market for a team than Seattle … or Las Vegas … or Orange County … I think it’s ridiculous to think that a major city like Seattle won’t have a team. I know it’s partly the city’s fault. But still … no NBA in Seattle? I struggle with that.
WE DO TOO CHAD!
November 15th, 2007 at 4:35 pm
Mr Mcwally, The Sonics need veterans to come in right away and help, Swift, Sene, Petro do indeed suck. There is a kid from South Jersey right now(Jason Thompson)(Rider Univ) that has more post game than any of those 3 stiffs. I remember a guy telling me at a camp that Dwigtt Howard was’nt going to be that good, and guess who he was Mike Fratello.. So Mr Mcwally the Sonics need what the Celtics just did, start cleaning house with all of the stiffs, Swift, Sene,Petro,etc.. PJ has tried to many combos, which has obviously has’nt worked. The Celtics have worked with Rajon Rondo become the point guard they need for that team. PJ needs to do the same thing instead of pulling this high school bs of shuffling guys in and out.. So Mcwally I did tell you before I thought the Celtics were going to win the eastern conf. I changed my mind stat boy, they are going to not only going to win it all, it’s not going to be close. You know why Mcwally, veterans, so keep your list of 20 year olds, look througout the NBA, that should be your first list, in your lists of stats. Can you dunk Mcwally, no not a donut, a throw down show down, did’nt think so.
November 15th, 2007 at 4:37 pm
Thanks for the feedback on core+ roster performance check Steve. I’ll try to work it up later using your specs.
November 15th, 2007 at 4:42 pm
Locke used to say in the 4th quarter you always go with the five players with the best skill set regardless of position. Five guys that can make the pass, finish the play or hit their free throws. That is how you finish games and hold onto leads. Who was in at the end of the Miami game? Durant, Wilkins, West, Green and Wilcox. Is that the five with the best overall skill sets on the Sonics available players? Pretty close. All I care about is that EW wasn’t in the game at the end.
November 15th, 2007 at 4:45 pm
Beantown, making a point about knowledge from experience once or couple of times is your right but picking on mcwalter44 the way you have does not come across well at least with me.
You recommend a veteran PG. I tend to agree with that. The next step is which guy and how much you’d offer to get them.
I’ve said I like Calderon for anyone but Durant (though others here would surely exclude mor eplayers) or a package deal that Toronto liked.
I was on the fence about Andre Miller given his age.
Got other names of guys you’d recommend / think they can get?
November 15th, 2007 at 4:51 pm
Mcwalter44 has expressed doubts about your experience Beantown. On the net there are both real experienced people (Eddie Johnson stopped by another board I participate at once) and fake ones. I am tending to believe you. It is your right to stay anonymous. But if you do, some skepticism probably should be expected. But its up y’all for now.
November 15th, 2007 at 4:55 pm
Myk said: “I’ll make a bold prediction and say that Collison will not be anything more than a Darrell Armstrong type player in the NBA.”
In the immortal words of Scoop Jackson, Darrell Armstrong has been slept on more times than a Motel 6 bed. He was pretty good back in the day.
Also, if Luke’s out for 2-4 weeks, does that mean he’s swapped onto the IR for Sene? Is the Hawks game Sene Time?
November 15th, 2007 at 4:56 pm
List of vet PGs that I want the Sonics to have:
1. LUKE RIDNOUR
2. LUKE RIDNOUR
3. LUKE RIDNOUR
Remove the leash when he is healthy and let’s get on with it.
Obi Wan Westhead: “Run Luke Run”
November 15th, 2007 at 4:57 pm
“Sonics defensive efficiency currently at 106.6. Better than previous 2 seasons. 04-05 was 106.0. ”
Nice. I’m wondering if this has to do with a lot more zone looks, taking out big men’s points in the paint? I know we’re getting killed on the perimeter though excluding last nights game.
Crow, what’s the point differential in the paint this year compared to previous years?
November 15th, 2007 at 5:04 pm
“I like Green at PF - a lot. He seems to have a nice back to the basket and face up game from about 15 ft or so in. You’re probably right that it isn’t much different than having Nick or Chris at C. I think of Green as a 4/3 and the other two guys as 4/5s.”
Agreed, he seems to play well in the post depending on matchups. Plus it’s nice to have a guy who can create mismatches with his ability to run the court with his speed and finish well. If he ever improves his midrange jumper…look out!
November 15th, 2007 at 5:15 pm
Beantown, making a point about knowledge from experience once or couple of times is your right but picking on mcwalter44 the way you have does not come across well at least with me.
I like Beantowns posts. Mcwalter deserved a little trash talk after the uncalled for shot he took at Beantown at the end of the Rashard thread. He wasn’t the only one that thought Mcwalter’s desire of bringing Marbury to Seattle was a completely asinine idea.
November 15th, 2007 at 5:18 pm
Hmm, according to the P-I, Sene was already in uniform last night.
And PJ played Petro ahead of him.
Free Sene!
November 15th, 2007 at 5:23 pm
I prefer to stay Sene free.
November 15th, 2007 at 5:29 pm
I am against Marbury too. But it does get back to which vet can you actually get and would you want him. Most of the ones I’d hypothetically want, I can’t realistically imagine getting.
November 15th, 2007 at 5:30 pm
I agree totally, but like I have stated to Mr. Mcwally and he took offense to it is if you played your understanding for the game is more than that of a stat guy. I played against some of the greatest players of all time, I grew up watching Dave Cowens use guys at 6″8, who I later got a chance to work with when I played. I have run several camps and clinics and still love the game, Sam Presti is a former camper, great kid, great attitude, but at most your average D3 player. Point being it does’nt take a genious to figure out what the Sonics need, alot. I know Scott Brooks, and Mark Bryant, they both have alot of knowlege of the game.. As a matter of fact, Scott Brooks is going to be a fine head coach, true student of the game. I am originally from Boston, and know there is a huge differnce between the east coast style and west coast style. You see this when you play with different players, then they need to adjust to that style of the team, very quickly. I have told Sam since I have been here how I feel, and I am not going to say he agrees with me, but he knows I am right.. So, do I think I know everything as sometimes I make it sound, about hoops I do, other things maybe not, but hoop absolutely, grew up looking at banners at the garden, made me realize how special this game is. I almost got the oppertunity to play in Boston during my career, it never worked out, oh well, it was a ride anyway..
November 15th, 2007 at 5:34 pm
Sene sucks! Give him a few more years but I can’t believe the Sonics drafted him, bleh! Marbury would tear the team apart, if it can’t work with Jamal Crawford, Randolph and Curry than it sure as hell ain’t gonna work here, lol.
November 15th, 2007 at 5:40 pm
RE: Darren Collison, Afflalo
“However, when playing athletic teams (see: Huskies) they have a much harder time. That is why I think those guys will struggle”- myk
Good point. I may be the minority here but I have always thought that Collison is better than Farmar. And I feel like Farmar is as good as Luke or at the very least has more upside than Luke. If Collison is better then he could fit in nicely depending on how high our pick is.
November 15th, 2007 at 6:11 pm
I do also have to say that you can’t tell how good a player is until you see them in person. Point being you don’t see the timeouts on tv, or other points in the game, why you ask. What if the coach is ripping this kid for taking a bad shot, or not boxing out, during the time out, is he accepting to the criticism, or is his nose up in the air like his shit don’t smell. You as a coach have to deal with this on the next level, if the negative attitude is already there, your in for it(Stephon Marbury).. I was at a Celtics workout a few weeks back as the director of player dev. Mike Crotty is also one of my former campers, was telling me how the attitude in Boston is different, I saw some of there work out, they are serious, with great attitudes..
November 15th, 2007 at 6:11 pm
I do also have to say that you can’t tell how good a player is until you see them in person. Point being you don’t see the timeouts on tv, or other points in the game, why you ask. What if the coach is ripping this kid for taking a bad shot, or not boxing out, during the time out, is he accepting to the criticism, or is his nose up in the air like his shit don’t smell. You as a coach have to deal with this on the next level, if the negative attitude is already there, your in for it(Stephon Marbury).. I was at a Celtics workout a few weeks back as the director of player dev. Mike Crotty is also one of my former campers, was telling me how the attitude in Boston is different, I saw some of there work out, they are serious, with great attitudes..
November 15th, 2007 at 6:20 pm
I cringed when they put Petro in yesterday. I would’ve much rather seen Sene on the floor, as it was when Thomas had tweaked his hammy & Collision had 4 fouls & needed to sit for a while — meaning, the two best post defenders were out. In the face of Mourning & Shaq, would you rather have the Frenchman who skitters around cluelessly & thinks he’s a jump shooter or the Senegalese (Senegalion?) who stays home in the paint & blocks shots?
November 15th, 2007 at 6:21 pm
Using Steve’s comment as a springboard with my method and his specs of the 6 core guys (West, Durant, Green, Wilcox, Wilkins, and Collison) I computed the data.
Of the 432 minutes played so far (very small sample) PJ has managed to keep 3 or more of them on the court 92% of the time. Unfortunately that means their results can’t be much different than the overall results:
Overall team (104 combinations so far):
Offensive efficiency
= points per 100 possessions= 96.2
(using data from basketballvalue.com)
Defensive efficiency104.8.
Point differential -8.6.
With 3 or more of core 6 on court (84 combinations):
Offensive efficiency= 98.0.
Defensive efficiency106.2.
Point differential -8.2.
So they are a little better offensively and a little worse defesnively and net only the tiniest bit better than overall.
After running this and getting this result I decided to continue on and look at when 4 or more of Steve’s core 6 are on the court together:
Offensive efficiency= 99.1
Defensive efficiency105.8.
Point differential -6.8.
4 or more of core 6 on court represent 49% of total minutes and 43 combinations. Their point differential is better, with a gain of another 1.4 points.
This research does solve the problem but it gives another way for assessing the situation and tracking the performance over time and different combos in a way that using results from 5 man lineups doesnt because the sets are so numerous and so small.
Maybe I will check different grouping later after more data is available.
November 15th, 2007 at 6:24 pm
should be…
This research “doesn’t” solve the problem…
November 15th, 2007 at 6:47 pm
”
This research does solve the problem but it gives another way for assessing the situation and tracking the performance over time and different combos in a way that using results from 5 man lineups doesnt because the sets are so numerous and so small.
Maybe I will check different grouping later after more data is available. ”
Excellent work, Crow. I would be interested in seeing further updates after the sample sizes are a little bigger. Hopefully the rotation will come together soon as well as there’s been an awful lot of lineup juggling early on as the coaching staff finds what combinations work.
“I do also have to say that you can’t tell how good a player is until you see them in person. Point being you don’t see the timeouts on tv, or other points in the game, why you ask. What if the coach is ripping this kid for taking a bad shot, or not boxing out, during the time out, is he accepting to the criticism, or is his nose up in the air like his shit don’t smell”
Boy does Damien deserve a few rips …
On behalf of the site authors, good to have you aboard beantown.
November 15th, 2007 at 7:12 pm
ajw: “Crow, what’s the point differential in the paint this year compared to previous years?”
If I understand it right I have an answer though it isn’t a complete one. Again fastbreak points are mixed in and free fouls aren’t accounted for but last season opponents averaged 36 points “inside” while this season it is 37.
Opponent points off jumpers have actually fallen from 50 to 46 though the FG% improved.
Opponent points from free throws (off fouls created on perimeter and inside) increased from 19 to 22.
All per 100 possessions using data from 82games.
November 15th, 2007 at 7:16 pm
In case you missed this - here is a great article on SI yesterday:
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/writers/dave_zirin/11/12/seattle.sonics/index.html?eref=T1
November 15th, 2007 at 7:18 pm
On keeping the Sonics in Seattle…..
I think we have a lot of allies among hard core NBA fans in other cities. I think we should go onto other team blogs and post the NBA mailing address & ask people to write Stern & tell him they do not support his blind support of Bennett at the expense of 40 years of loyalty to the NBA by Seattle fans.
Can’t hurt - just an idea
November 15th, 2007 at 7:19 pm
Marbury in Seattle? NOOOOOOO WAY
Total head case - cancer - terrbile example for KD & JG
Will never happen
Bench KD? - NOOOOO WAY
Patience people
November 15th, 2007 at 7:23 pm
That data may not be perfect and it isn’t a clear answer to the question about points.
Looks like Sonics have cut FG% on close shots from 62% FG% last season to 54% FG% this season.
That is what is readily available.
More might be available in future as several other folks at trying to add new public information about shot distibution.
November 15th, 2007 at 7:32 pm
Sene vs. Mourning would’ve been a sight to see. Zo would’ve tossed him around like a javelin.
Derrick Rose on ESPN2 right now!
November 15th, 2007 at 7:41 pm
My point exactly, MC Nuggit. If I had a choice, I’d much rather play Sene than Petro.
November 15th, 2007 at 8:00 pm
JJ, the climate for your suggestion to drum up support in other cities might be better now than it was earlier given the news and noise recently made. I tried a little awhile ago. Go for it if you want. But it may be that more folks will spontaneously speak up as well their way as we’ve seen some signs of recently.
November 15th, 2007 at 8:16 pm
Since when did benching someone become synonymous with bringing someone off the bench? Coming off the bench is not punishment per se. Watch the fourth quarter of the Mavs/Spurs game. Manu and Jason Terry, two “bench” players, are playing incredible basketball this season. Perhaps the Sonics could learn something from the only teams in the NBA that have won fifty games the last seven seasons. Just an academic idea, probably will not happen.
November 15th, 2007 at 8:21 pm
Derrick Rose looks like a beast. He’s playing like crap tonight but I’m blown away by the combination of size, strength, speed and body control. I’ll take him.
November 15th, 2007 at 8:31 pm
Has anyone else noticed how much of the Sonics offense runs through Nick C. in the high post? Why do this?
Nick isn’t especially good at passing, dribbling, or shooting from there. He IS good at moving without the ball, getting to the offensive boards and interior scoring (when Shaq isn’t rebounding his layups…). Just seems like a waste of shot clock time to have the ball go through him in the high post.
November 15th, 2007 at 8:36 pm
Seen at supersonicsoul from a net poster:
“KEVIN DURANT is going to be talking to callers LIVE next Wednesday to anyone who calls up on Nike’s Bball site”:
http://www.nike.com/nikebasketball/usa/?loclist=hoopstalk#hoopstalk
November 15th, 2007 at 8:43 pm
TukwilaSonic, I’d have to think about it more / review tape but does that high post work by Nick end up with him moving without the ball, getting to the offensive boards and interior scoring later?
Maybe better that work is done by Nick than Wilcox (a receiver/scorer) when they are in together.
But maybe Green should do that work when they are in together?
Maybe Wally could do it too.
Alex, maybe Green is on his way to being a “hidden” (off the bench) starter. Collison has been that on and off.
Thomas I would think would do it when he is in.
November 15th, 2007 at 8:47 pm
Derrick Rose. I’m watching him play tonight and have seen him play twice now, and I’m really not that impressed. Now, there’s no question in my mind that he’s going to be a fine player and an NBA point guard. But when I hear people talking about “one step closer to Derrick Rose” and talking about tanking the season for a shot at this kid, I just don’t see it. It’s easy to get pumped over a guy if you see a compilation of their highlights on youtube. I could put together a highlight film of Earl Watson that makes him look like Tony Parker, but that only tells one part of the story. Hey, I think it would be great if we got this guy, but personally I’d rather have a couple more wins, even if it means ending up in the middle of the pack.
November 15th, 2007 at 8:51 pm
“I think we have a lot of allies among hard core NBA fans in other cities. I think we should go onto other team blogs and post the NBA mailing address & ask people to write Stern & tell him they do not support his blind support of Bennett at the expense of 40 years of loyalty to the NBA by Seattle fans.”
The message has got to be that if it can happen in Seattle, it could happen to your team/town too. Wasn’t too long ago that basketball leaving town was an aburd idea. We ought to convince fans in established NBA cities that the Sonics leaving Seattle threatens the stability of their team too.
November 15th, 2007 at 8:52 pm
Just finished listening to Mr. Ceis. It doesn’t sound very good. If this is the proposal that the Mayor has been working in the background then we are in deep trouble. Brian, I hope this isn’t what you have been talking about.
November 15th, 2007 at 8:58 pm
Wouldn’t it be nice if the fans around the league could send a message to Stern et al. not take us for granted. A symbolic gesture, such as a “walk out” (into the concourse) for the first five minutes of the second half of each game during a prearranged date (such as a Wednesday when many teams are on the schedule, and some a televised via ESPN). Call it “fan appreciation day”.
It’d be a hell of a statement to have the games played for those five minutes before empty seats.
Seems like it be tough to get it organized, but hell someone figured out how to start the wave.
November 15th, 2007 at 9:01 pm
Crow it may well be that because Wilcox needs to play down low that Nick is up high as part of the process to get Wheezy the ball. They do seem to play well together so it probably works for them. If the first offense isn’t there, often they go thru Nick up high and it results in a handoff to Watson or Wilkins and they do their slow ball movement thing from there.
November 15th, 2007 at 9:03 pm
That’s the part I don’t like to see…
November 15th, 2007 at 9:08 pm
Quick story about attitude. A friend of mine who is a D1 coach was recruiting a kid, he liked him thought he would be good fit. He went to see him play one last time you usually want to see a player 3 times home, away, and tournament time. He heard this yelling in the parking lot after the game and looked over to find out it was this player he was recruiting yelling and swearing at his mother for not giving him money to go out with his friends after the game.. This kid who was D1 all the way never went anywhere, my friend said if he talks to his mother like that how is he going to treat me when I confront him. Its all about attitude guys. Durant has a good attitude as well as Greene, I like these kids..
November 15th, 2007 at 9:36 pm
That makes sense.
Presti going for guys in Durant & Green from good programs that demand good attitude makes sense. I assume he gets the full story by various means direct and probably indirect too.
Attitude on this team right now seems pretty good. Hope it stays that way.
November 15th, 2007 at 9:46 pm
Followup on the core lineup performance study.
Looked at two possible foundations within the core 6- Durant, Green and either Collison or Wilcox.
Neither lineup has been used much. With Collison 42 minutes (about 10% of total time), with Wilcox 24 minutes (5-6% of total time). It is real early in season but if either of these were the future foundation they sure arent working it very hard yet.
Small samples but Kevin and Jeff with Nick or Chris both off to rough starts losing games by more than twice the average team point differential loss.
Of course all these numbers could reverse quickly.
Green time split roughly estimated at 60% PF / 40% SF so far.
November 15th, 2007 at 9:49 pm
Utah had a real nice high pick n roll for Boozer that I’d love to see Sonics steal and make work for Nick, Chris and Jeff. Got him a one dribble slam open slam on us.
November 15th, 2007 at 10:13 pm
I’m late coming to these threads, but, here are my two cents on a few things:
On KD coming off the bench: No way. He gives us too much of a mismatch against other shorter shooting guards. If there is one guy who is going to shoot a lesser field goal percentage, I’m okay with it being KD. For one thing, he’s tall enough that he can almost always get off his shot. In addition, his misses look much better than anyone else on the team IMO. Plus, his defense and passing are under-rated. He’s the real deal, and if I’m paying for a ticket I want to see him play! Damn it.
On Jeff Green. I agree with AK that the comparisons to James Worthy are good ones. I don’t think that Green is necessarily a future Hall of Famer, however, he’s just so solid and he reminds me of Worthy when he runs the floor.
The Maryland/DC connection on the team (KD, Green, Delonte, and Wilcox) is coming into its own.
November 15th, 2007 at 10:30 pm
Last one for now-
If Durant, Green and one of Wilcox or Collison triplet is rare what about the pairs?
Durant Wilcox small positive
Durant Collison big negative (more than team average loss)
Green Wilcox small positive
Green Collison big negative (more than team average loss)
Durant Green big negative (more than team average loss)
Wilcox Collison big negative (at team average loss)
November 15th, 2007 at 10:40 pm
Of course are just first blink impressions / stats.
It might be a good deal random or there might be patterns forming. The apparent pattern is that Wilcox matters and that pairs with him are the only positives among the 4. Will check later when 82games gets their updates of it. This was a special manually compiled first look for the curious.
November 15th, 2007 at 11:24 pm
In regards to Marbury, I agree that we don’t really need to go in that direction. I was thinking Miami(who could use some scoring), might actually be a better fit for him. They’re having a tough time scoring, AND they’re in trouble already anyway. They already have Ricky Davis as well, so image is obviously not an issue with them either…
November 16th, 2007 at 12:28 am
“It’s definitely respect, but evidently I haven’t gained it,” Wilcox said. “I’m not good enough to be on the ballot. That’s tough. I’m not upset. I’ll use it as motivation.”
Wilcox in the Seattle times reacting to being snubbed from the all-star ballot.
I like the sound of that.
November 16th, 2007 at 5:02 am
“In regards to Marbury, I agree that we don’t really need to go in that direction. I was thinking Miami(who could use some scoring), might actually be a better fit for him. They’re having a tough time scoring, AND they’re in trouble already anyway. They already have Ricky Davis as well, so image is obviously not an issue with them either…” {epx}
http://realgm.com/src_checktrade.php?tradeid=4290385
Because Mark Blount can’t be traded by the Miami Heat until 12/24/2007 and Isiah Thomas would have to waive Randolph Morris to make room for Blount and Jason Williams on the New York Knicks’ roster, I don’t think that the aforementioned trade — which, without a doubt, is centered around Stephon Marbury — would occur between the Heat and the Knicks at any point in time.
It’s still the most likely option in light of that idea, though.
“Marbury is a loser.” {Dick Tate}
That sums up Stephon Marbury.
“Plus his shoes shred my ankles on the court.” {ajw}
Regarding Steve & Berry’s line of footwear, I’d never wear the shitty Starbury II basketball shoes; however, the Cyclone II skater shoes from that joint have been working out well for me.
“http://rivalshoops.rivals.com/content.asp?SID=910&CID=727515
Derrick Rose ranked #8? What up with that.” {ajw}
Well, the above rankings were seemingly based on those players’ projected production in the NCAA this season. Yet, as it concerns the professional potential of current college point guards, the following is my top-five list.
1. Derrick Rose
- - - - - - - - - - -
2. Jerryd Bayless
3. Darren Collison
4. Tywon Lawson
5. D.J. Augustin
Neither O.J. Mayo nor Eric Gordon — who remind me of Gilbert Arenas and Ben Gordon, respectively — were included on that list; that’s ’cause they’re both combo guards.
November 16th, 2007 at 6:13 am
PJ interview in TNT overtime (you can watch it on nba.com)
PJ : I still think we gonna stay in seattle i still believe whats misunderstood by people on the outside clay prefers to stay in seattle he believes in seattle, the way the fan are supporting the team he thinks its a better market he thinks its one of the better market in the league so financially as an owner thats his preference, hes not gonna stay there in keyarena
I hope he is right ….
November 16th, 2007 at 8:37 am
“Wilcox in the Seattle times reacting to being snubbed from the all-star ballot.”
Have you seen the all-star voting? Its pretty jacked up. It makes you wonder who puts it all together.
Wally Z is on it, and Wilcox is not.
Antoine Walker is on it as a guard.
November 16th, 2007 at 9:23 am
Beatown - Thanks for you suggestions on what the Sonics can do to solve their problems at the point and 5 spot. To a certain extent I agree that getting some veteran help would definitely benefit a young team like the Sonics. Please provide us with player suggestions. I know you’ve mention Thompson several times, but he obviously not a veteran.
Also the whole point about Marbury wasn’t that he was great person, leader, or even a right fit for the team. My point was the if Wally and Watson are perceived as cancers (and in some circles they are) then why not saved some $$$ and take on just one cancer in Marbury? That said, if we can make deal where we get a veteran point guard (say Brevon Knight type) that can provide some leadership, then I’m all for that over getting a true cancer like Marbury. Also, look at a guy like R. Moss (who I saw a lot living down here in SF) who from any circle was a cancer to the Raiders, is now a great player once again because he got out of the terrible organization he was in. Now, the Sonics are definitely not the Pats, but perhaps theirs another guy (not Marbury) in the Association that has be floweder around that we could pick up for two cents on the dollar and give a fresh start to solve the Sonics’ point guard issue.
Then, again maybe Beatown is right, and I don’t know basketball and that only experts show post on blogs so that idiots like me don’t put out terrible ideas.
November 16th, 2007 at 9:44 am
Mr McWalter, Don’t be so hard on yourself. What happens alot when a kid who is young enters the draft without D1 experience usually have a tough time right away adjusting, I saw this alot in the NBDL. Size, speed, and athleticism, are something they either need to have, or be able to adapt real quick. My point on players like Jason Thompson is he is a senior, but has not played against top players night after night, which hurts a player like him. At camp he played against several top big guys and did very well. You see today the players are different when I played. They have car dealerships, own restaraunts, and usually have their hand in lot of diiferent business’s, and oh teah they play hoop. When I was playing you didnt have alot of other things gong on. When these kids today get drafted they go to a program designed by the NBA for 2 weeks, on how to maintain themselves in all aspects of becoming a professional athlete, and acting like a gentleman. Stepho Marbury must have missed this program.. The Sonics right now need a big guy, when you have a guy where you can play the inside out game it makes a huge difference.. So MrMcwalter, you did show you have a little G.
November 16th, 2007 at 10:48 am
They have car dealerships, own restaraunts, and usually have their hand in lot of diiferent business’s, and oh teah they play hoop. When I was playing you didnt have alot of other things gong on. When these kids today get drafted they go to a program designed by the NBA for 2 weeks, on how to maintain themselves in all aspects of becoming a professional athlete, and acting like a gentleman. Stepho Marbury must have missed this program…
- Honestly, if anyone wants to know “why” Stephon Marbury is the way he is, please take the time to read this book:
http://www.amazon.com/Last-Shot-Streets-Basketball-Dreams/dp/0618446710/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1195235052&sr=8-1
It is a great book about inner-city hoops and how certain stars get treated.
Then, again maybe Beatown is right, and I don’t know basketball and that only experts show post on blogs so that idiots like me don’t put out terrible ideas.
- I wouldn’t feel so bad McWalter…everyone has their own method of evaluation. To think that Beantown somehow is the only one who can evaluate talent is pretty silly…
The Sonics right now need a big guy, when you have a guy where you can play the inside out game it makes a huge difference.. So MrMcwalter, you did show you have a little G.
- Excellent observation…does anyone not think this?? Obviously a good big man is very helpful towards a team ability to succeed. The issue is actually finding one in the limited pool that is out there…that’s like saying that I’d be a millionairre if I won the lottery. This is true…but I still need to find the ticket.
November 16th, 2007 at 10:51 am
JJ-
Thanks for the Zirin link from SI.com. That article rocked! Showin some national love for the Supe fans.
This doesnt seem like a bad idea from the article:
“The Sonics should get their new arena, but instead of the proceeds going to build another wing on Bennett Manor, the funds would go to rebuilding the city’s health care and educational infrastructure. Imagine seeing someone wearing a Kevin Durant jersey on the street and knowing that instead of draining the tax base of a city, it was paying for new textbooks in a public school classroom.”—-
November 16th, 2007 at 10:58 am
Off topic: how fun would this be to watch unfold?
http://realgm.com/src_checktrade.php?tradeid=4290828
November 16th, 2007 at 11:03 am
A steal for the Knicks, Vinny, lol. They’d be lucky to get that much “quality” in return.
November 16th, 2007 at 11:26 am
Beantown… The attitude story is classic - thanks
Faaa - Interesting quote from PJ on the Sonics staying or not is Seattle - persoally - I just don’t buy it - either PJ is in the dark or he is part of the lie > CB does not want to keep “HIS” team in Seattle - he wants to take the team to OKC - his hometown - simple as that.
November 16th, 2007 at 1:51 pm
Sorry Myk, have to totally disagree with you about Marbury. I have not only read the book, I also grew up in the inner city. Got nothing handed to me, if your invited to 5 star camp in Philly, you are usually on your way to being recruited. Alot of guys I went to camp with were already assholes thinking their shit did’nt smell. I had good coaching that made me realize that I had alot to learn instead of kissing my ass. I coached high school and most kids get recruited out of AAU teams they play for as the are traveling around the country, and are able to actually show there talent opposed to playing in high school where there are alot of sets, less talent. When Marbury was being recruited by Bobby Cremins some of the shit he pulled was incredible. So why is Marbury a bad example and an asshole, give Bobby Cremins a call. You think Alan Iversons bowling alley story his senior year of high school was something nothing compared to mr. asshole. I have met Marbury, and I know he is an asshole, so your book is bs, along with even thinking this jerk-off can help a young team right now..
November 16th, 2007 at 2:57 pm
Also Myk, a bigman is very hard to find, tell me hot shot what is the first thing you look for in a big guy, tell me, do you know, I did’nt think so.. The first thing is post presence, both on the offensive end, but more so on the defensive end. Another question hot shot, why is the art of post play a thing of the past, do you know, did’nt think so. Yes there are alot of answers for this one, but I’m nterested in hearing yur version Myk, and I will try not to laugh.. Wannabe
November 16th, 2007 at 3:19 pm
Beatown - the main reason post play defense is a dying art is work ethic and coaching. The amount of effort and dedication, on top of genetics, needed to be a great post player is rare. Look at DeAndre Jordan at Texas A&M. This guy should be dominating college basketball as freshman. Has he done so yet? No, because doesn’t work hard.
November 16th, 2007 at 3:37 pm
Mr.Mcwalter, I finally agree with you, work ethic is number 1 in my book as well.. Big guys today tend to be lazy, and they are not taught the fundamentals of the game. I worked with Dave Cowens when I first got into the league, imagine these guys today playing like Dave Cowens, I again was lucky, also diciplined and knew if I busted my balls things would maybe work out..
November 16th, 2007 at 4:09 pm
Beantown - Amazingly we agree on some thing. If you’re looking for a lunch pale guy look no further than Cal’s DeVon Hardin. The has a strong base and not only is a shot blocker, but an also root up out of the low block. I think the Pistons would have taken him late in the 1st round last draft and if he has solid year could be a mid to late lottery pick. He’s the type of guy I’d love for the Sonics to get.