11/19/07 Box Score: Sonics 108 Grizzlies 125
Posted on Tuesday, November 20th, 2007 at 12:10 am by Big Chris
The Sonics never really seemed to be in tonight’s game. If you look at the game flow, you can see clearly we weren’t in this game after halfway into the first period.
Eight Sonic players scored in double figures, 6 of whom scored 11 points. Delonte West led the way with 17 points.
(2-10)
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
(3-7)
| Seattle | ||||||||||||
| Name | Min | FG | 3Pt | FT | Off | Reb | Ast | TO | Stl | Blk | PF | Pts |
| E. Watson | 21 | 4-8 | 0-2 | 3-4 | 0 | 2 | 3 | 2 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 11 |
| K. Durant | 29 | 2-8 | 0-0 | 7-8 | 0 | 2 | 2 | 5 | 0 | 0 | 2 | 11 |
| J. Green | 30 | 4-12 | 0-0 | 3-4 | 8 | 14 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 3 | 11 |
| D. Wilkins | 30 | 4-12 | 0-2 | 3-4 | 3 | 5 | 6 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 3 | 11 |
| C. Wilcox | 20 | 6-9 | 0-0 | 4-6 | 1 | 6 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 4 | 16 |
| D. West | 26 | 6-10 | 3-3 | 2-2 | 0 | 1 | 4 | 2 | 1 | 0 | 2 | 17 |
| W. Szczerbiak | 24 | 5-8 | 0-1 | 1-1 | 0 | 5 | 1 | 3 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 11 |
| N. Collison | 19 | 5-9 | 0-0 | 1-1 | 1 | 3 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 2 | 5 | 11 |
| J. Petro | 17 | 1-3 | 0-0 | 0-0 | 2 | 7 | 1 | 2 | 0 | 0 | 5 | 2 |
| M. Gelabale | 13 | 1-3 | 0-1 | 2-2 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 4 |
| M. Sene | 6 | 1-5 | 0-0 | 1-2 | 3 | 3 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 3 |
| L. Ridnour | DNP - Coach’s Decision | |||||||||||
| R. Swift | DNP - Coach’s Decision | |||||||||||
| K. Thomas | DNP - Coach’s Decision | |||||||||||
| Totals | 235 | 39-87 | 3-9 | 27-34 | 18 | 48 | 20 | 16 | 5 | 3 | 25 | 108 |
| Percentages: | .448 | .333 | .794 | Team Rebounds: 8 |
||||||||
| Memphis | ||||||||||||
| Name | Min | FG | 3Pt | FT | Off | Reb | Ast | TO | Stl | Blk | PF | Pts |
| D. Stoudamire | 22 | 5-7 | 3-3 | 3-3 | 0 | 1 | 7 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 16 |
| M. Miller | 26 | 6-12 | 3-4 | 4-4 | 0 | 3 | 7 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 2 | 19 |
| P. Gasol | 30 | 5-9 | 0-0 | 4-5 | 1 | 7 | 5 | 3 | 1 | 7 | 3 | 14 |
| R. Gay | 31 | 4-12 | 2-4 | 2-2 | 2 | 7 | 4 | 0 | 2 | 0 | 3 | 12 |
| S. Swift | 24 | 10-14 | 0-0 | 4-8 | 3 | 5 | 4 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 5 | 24 |
| K. Lowry | 25 | 4-7 | 0-1 | 4-6 | 0 | 2 | 2 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 12 |
| H. Warrick | 25 | 8-13 | 0-0 | 0-0 | 3 | 5 | 1 | 2 | 1 | 1 | 5 | 16 |
| J. Navarro | 21 | 4-5 | 0-1 | 0-0 | 0 | 2 | 2 | 4 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 8 |
| C. Jacobsen | 21 | 1-4 | 0-2 | 0-0 | 0 | 2 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 2 | 2 |
| A. Brown | 5 | 0-0 | 0-0 | 0-0 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 0 |
| T. Kinsey | 5 | 1-3 | 0-0 | 0-0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 2 |
| J. Carlos Navarro | 20 | 4-5 | 0-1 | 0-0 | 0 | 2 | 2 | 4 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 8 |
| B. Cardinal | DNP - Coach’s Decision | |||||||||||
| D. Milicic | DNP - Coach’s Decision | |||||||||||
| Totals | 255 | 48-86 | 8-15 | 21-28 | 10 | 35 | 33 | 13 | 9 | 10 | 24 | 125 |
| Percentages: | .558 | .533 | .750 | Team Rebounds: 9 |
||||||||
| Game Info | ||||||||||||
|
Technical Fouls:
None |
||||||||||||
Plus/Minus
Some brutal +/- from tonight’s starters. Jeff Green -27. Kevin Durant -26. Damien Wilkins -22.
Help Value (hv=Reb+Ast+Blk+Stl-TO)
Jeff Green led the Sonics at +14. Damien Wilkins contributed to the tune of +11.
November 20th, 2007 at 12:21 am
1St draft pick here we come.
November 20th, 2007 at 12:21 am
1St draft pick here we come.
November 20th, 2007 at 12:38 am
As of 11/19/2007, Kevin Durant (Points Allowed Per 100 Possessions: 112.9; Net Defensive Points Per 100 Possessions: +21.0; Effective Field-Goal Percentage Allowed: 52.8%; Net Effective Field-Goal Percentage Allowed: +12.0%) has made two former Seattle Supersonics, Ray Allen and Rashard Lewis, look like they belong on the NBA All-Defensive First Team.
Yes, folks, Durant is really that pitiful of a defender.
Where, by the way, are James B. and Menace — who both disagreed with my assertion that Durant would be a god-awful defensive player at the NBA level due to his subpar athleticism and scrawny frame — to defend their ludicrous stance at this point in time?
November 20th, 2007 at 12:56 am
P.J’s starting 5 tonight was odd. I didn’t catch the game until late in the 3rd, but I heard he started Green at the 4 and Wilcox at center? To pair an undersized power forward with a huge defensive liability, that can’t even guard other power forwards, let alone centers was possibly the dumbest move a coach could ever make imo.
It would’ve made sense if P.J played Green next to Thomas, or a 7-footer such as Swift. Hope he never makes that mistake again.
November 20th, 2007 at 2:05 am
He did it because Darko was down. They matched up just fine IMO with Green.
Important stats:
Durant: 0 3PA
Durant: 8 FGA
Wilkens: leads team with 6 AST
Green: 14 Reb
Durant must stay away from the 3 ball if he’s going to improve. I’m fine with him at the SG position FOR NOW as long as he uses his strengths against his opposition.
At the 2, Durant’s strength is his size. He can use that in 2 ways: he can post up and out-position his opponent or he can shoot over the top of them. All too often he has opted to do the latter. He must work on his post game first because that will translate into success further down the road. He will always be able to shoot over people, but when he fills out like PJ wants him to (PJ said he wants Durant to move to the SF position in the next couple of years once his size improves), he will need to have an advanced post game against bigger defenders.
Right now, Durant’s speed at the 2 is about equal or less than the 2s that defend him, so he loses his quickness advantage that he would have if he were playing at the 3. He can out-quick a big defender, but he doesn’t have that advantage against the SGs that guard him now.
If Durant develops the post game and finds a place on the floor that he feels most comfortable, he will see his FG% skyrocket. It will also open up his outside game too.
Green is doing exactly what Durant should do: focus on finding an interior/post-up game and look to make a difference with his physical advantages on the defensive end and in fast break. Green is great, but Durant can be leaps and bounds better if he did what Green is doing.
Just goes to show how much age/maturity/knowledge will take you early in your career…
November 20th, 2007 at 2:53 am
“P.J’s starting 5 tonight was odd. I didn’t catch the game until late in the 3rd, but I heard he started Green at the 4 and Wilcox at center? To pair an undersized power forward with a huge defensive liability, that can’t even guard other power forwards, let alone centers was possibly the dumbest move a coach could ever make imo.” {ajw}
Yeah, that was a bad decision by P.J. Carlesimo. For the Memphis Grizzlies, the duo of Pau Gasol and Stromile Swift had their way in the paint against the Seattle Supersonics’ undersized, defensively inept frontline of Chris Wilcox and Jeff Green.
In Wilcox’s case, we’re all aware of his defensive shortcomings. Regarding Green, however, the problem with him is that he’s suited to play power forward on offense — as being a high-post facilitator comes more naturally to him than shooting mid-range jumpers over on the weakside — yet, his mediocre standing reach (8′7″), relatively short wingspan (7′1″), and toned physique (228lbs @ 3.7% Body Fat) is built to guard taller swingmen along the perimeter and not taller, larger interior players. That, therefore, put the Supersonics at a distinct disadvantege with those two flawed players manning the frontcourt.
Oh well, I’m sure that Carlesimo learned his lesson.
November 20th, 2007 at 9:13 am
On the positive side, i’m getting the impression durant has been going to the line more in the past few games
November 20th, 2007 at 9:17 am
7′1” is a ‘relatively short wingspan’?
November 20th, 2007 at 9:52 am
“7′1′’ is a ‘relatively short wingspan’?” {Ninja Jordan}
For Jeff Green, who’s 6′8″ tall without shoes, a 7′1″ wingspan is about average compared to other guys around his height. Admittedly, that’s my mistake for exaggerating it. Green’s short standing reach of 8′7″, however, is a huge liability with regards to defending bigger interior players and crashing the glass for rebounds.
November 20th, 2007 at 9:52 am
“On the positive side, i’m getting the impression durant has been going to the line more in the past few games.”
Gotta accent the positive what little there may be.
November 20th, 2007 at 9:54 am
Another non-descript game by Watson and Wilkins yet AK doesn’t have anything to say about that…how convenient. AK, I’d like to know which of the defensive numbers you quoted about Durant you feel are the most important?
November 20th, 2007 at 10:22 am
“I’d like to know which of the defensive numbers you quoted about Durant you feel are the most important?”
The ones that back up his arguement of the minute, duh.
November 20th, 2007 at 10:24 am
“Green’s short standing reach of 8′7″, however, is a huge liability with regards to defending bigger interior players and crashing the glass for rebounds.”
I would concur that his rebounding last night was terrible, imagine if he had a good standing reach!
November 20th, 2007 at 10:39 am
“Where, by the way, are James B. and Menace — who both disagreed with my assertion that Durant would be a god-awful defensive player at the NBA level due to his subpar athleticism and scrawny frame — to defend their ludicrous stance at this point in time?”
Despite the stats you have provided. I think Durant is a better shot blocker and is more disruptive defensively (due to his lankiness) than our former players. He plays the passing lanes better, and seems to stay home vs biting on shot fakes. Stats don’t reflect that. To say that he is “god-awful” is an extreme stance to defend one of the sole opinions you’ve been half right about all year. I’m not saying he is a good defender. But you act like he is the worst…….and that just isn’t the case.
How’s Shelden Williams doing this year?
I’ve noticed you have flipped flopped on Jeff Green again. Never saw that coming. At least its wingspan now. New arguments are refreshing.
November 20th, 2007 at 10:48 am
“Another non-descript game by Watson and Wilkins yet AK doesn’t have anything to say about that…how convenient. AK, I’d like to know which of the defensive numbers you quoted about Durant you feel are the most important?” {Myk}
I’m not a fan of Damien Wilkins and Earl Watson.
Hell, I’ve wanted them gone prior to last season’s trade deadline — as Rick Sund should’ve offered them to the Miami Heat for James Posey and Gary Payton, who both had expiring contracts — alas, that didn’t come to fruition. Right now, Sam Presti should look into dealing Wilkins and Watson to the Heat for Jason Williams — who, of course, has an expiring contract — as that’d speed up the rebuilding process.
Nonetheless, I’d rather have them in the starting lineup than either Delonte West or Luke Ridnour — who, due to their flaws, are a bad choice to pair alongside Kevin Druant — and that’s always been my position on this issue. I’m not the only one who feels this way, too, as Dick Tate and Jeremy in LA are on my side here.
Basically, it’s the lesser of two evils.
November 20th, 2007 at 10:55 am
AK - your fatal flaw as a poster is that you zero in on every player’s perceived shortcomings and exaggerate them to the point that the player is a major liability who would be lucky to be starting in the CBA. Then you fail to recoginize the positives characteristics or future potential of the player and give him no benefit of the doubt.
EVERY player has positives and minuses. Larry Bird did. Magic Johnson did. The Spurs won a championship with Bruce Bown starting. What matters is whether or not the player’s positive contributions outweigh the negatives, whether the team is constructed in such a way that the player’s good traits are emphasized and his weaknesses covered up, and whether the player is working hard and showing improvement.
To write Durant off after a dozen games shows a great deal of short-sightedness.
November 20th, 2007 at 11:06 am
Prior to last night, if you use 82 games estimates for Green rebounding compared to his opponent and prorate by his time on court right now, it appears he was outrebounding SFs by 2 if he played there entirely for that amount of time but he was getting outrebounded by PFs by 2.
Last night will probably pull him close to even with PFs. Was last night’s rebounding at PF a fluke or a sign he can handle that matchup on the boards?
Overall Green has also almost caught up Wilcox on rebounding rates on both boards.
It looks like he can defend the SF spot but hasn’t got PF challenge solved yet. Few SFs try to take him inside and shoot. PFs do so at above their normal rate and with strong results.
I am for experimenting with him at PF but am watching the results. Right now he is better at SF. But he has shown progress and maybe he will be able to handle PF spot- either in addition to SF or eventually instead of.
November 20th, 2007 at 11:08 am
Why do the Sonics look so bad?
I mean last night it looked like a high school team against an NBA team.
The Seattle Players looked lost, confused and disinterested. Have they accepted the losing already? It looks as though this team has given up on the year already. Maybe they realize that PJ doesn’t have a clue and so they figure what the hell why should I care. I hope PJ is still shaking off the rust of not head-coaching for many years. The players look bad, coaching looks idiotic, body language is horrible, I really hope this is just a road-weary symptom and not a season long funk. I couldn’t take watching this kind of b-ball much longer. And if I stop watching then Clay wins.
November 20th, 2007 at 11:13 am
“Despite the stats you have provided. I think Durant is a better shot blocker and is more disruptive defensively (due to his lankiness) than our former players. He plays the passing lanes better, and seems to stay home vs biting on shot fakes. Stats don’t reflect that. To say that he is “god-awful” is an extreme stance to defend one of the sole opinions you’ve been half right about all year. I’m not saying he is a good defender. But you act like he is the worst…….and that just isn’t the case.”
Look, Kevin Durant is an abysmal man-to-man perimeter defender. I’ve got to assume that Durant’s inability to competently square up and guard anyone along the perimeter — which has caused opponents to relentlessly penetrate against the Seattle Supersonics and expose the team’s horrid interior defense — is one reason for P.J. Carlesimo’s reliance on zone defenses thus far this season.
However, it’s true that Durant is at least a run-of-the-mill help defender. Despite his mediocre lateral quickness, he can disrupt the passing lanes with his long wingspan and come across the weakside and block shots on occasion. Statistically, though, lockdown perimeter defenders (e.g., Shane Battier) are usually more impactful than premier help defenders (e.g., Andrei Kirilenko) with regards to lowering their team’s allowed points per 100 possessions.
“I’ve noticed you have flipped flopped on Jeff Green again. Never saw that coming. At least its wingspan now. New arguments are refreshing.” {Menace}
Apropos of Jeff Green, there’s been no posturing of my opinion. Hell, I still think that Green has the talent to become a useful third or fourth option on a championship caliber ballclub — à la James Worthy — nevertheless, the Seattle Supersonics are quite possibily the worst team for a polished, well-rounded player such as himself.
As I’ve stated numerous times before this moment, Green would be best served playing for the Phoenix Suns. As a backup to Boris Diaw, being a high-post facilitator in Mike D’Antoni’s offense scheme would’ve done wonders for him. The Houston Rockets would’ve been a great fit, too, as Rick Adelman has installed a variation of the Princeton offense down there this season.
“How’s Shelden Williams doing this year?” {Menace}
I conceded that Shelden Williams’ production at Duke didn’t translate to the NBA.
November 20th, 2007 at 11:15 am
As mentioned in the past Green’s standing reach is either usually low or a reporting error. 7′1 wingspan usually has a higher standing vertical reach associated with it by a few inches. Green’s shoulders look unusual and maybe he doesnt get as much extension as other people. 7′1 wingspan is typical or slightly lower than average for a guy Green’s size (6′ 9.5 in shoes and he wore / wears thick shoes) based on reported values for all rookies since 2000.
But the rebounding right now is strong enough that it doesn’t appear an issue on this topic. If the standing reach is indeed low the place where it may be more of an issue is shot defense- not extending high enough to block basket vision.
It appears he does have good hops. I don’t know for sure but maybe that works better defending jumpshots than post play- at least a good portion of it where the defender has to hold position and may not get airborne.
November 20th, 2007 at 11:18 am
We did look bad last night. I’m going to give a little credit to Memphis though. They played pretty well. They pretty much shot us out of the game in the first half. They had strong bench play from Warrick and Lowry. They had 33 assists.
Us playing bad and Memphis/any team playing decent = blowout.
Memphis is young…..but you have to admit that they have some talent. Gasol, Miller, Gay, Conley, Warrick……on paper their future is bright.
November 20th, 2007 at 11:25 am
AK said:
“Green’s short standing reach of 8′7″, however, is a huge liability with regards to defending bigger interior players and crashing the glass for rebounds.”
Yeah, you’re right - 14 boards in 30 minutes last night, and a season average of 5.5 boards in 22 minutes speaks volumes to Green’s inability to rebound because of his short reach.
The hits just keep on coming!
November 20th, 2007 at 11:27 am
AK you’ve already admitted that media hype fuels some of your dislike of Kevin Durant. We get that. But to jump on one part of his game and exaggerate it like he is the worst in the league is a little ridiculous. Its Skip Bayless style.
November 20th, 2007 at 11:29 am
“AK - your fatal flaw as a poster is that you zero in on every player’s perceived shortcomings and exaggerate them to the point that the player is a major liability who would be lucky to be starting in the CBA. Then you fail to recoginize the positives characteristics or future potential of the player and give him no benefit of the doubt.
To write Durant off after a dozen games shows a great deal of short-sightedness.” {Big_Worm}
Actually, Big_Worm, I’m one of the few guys who praises the players who don’t get enough respect — such as low-post defensive stalwarts (e.g., Joel Pryzbilla & Jeff Foster), shutdown perimeter defenders (e.g., Bruce Bowen & Renaldo Balkman), players who consistently draw fouls (e.g., Corey Maggette & Kyle Lowry), efficient scorers (e.g., Josh Childress & David Lee), and careful ball-handlers (e.g., Jose Calderon & Antonio Daniels) — yet, at the same time, it bothers me whenever so-called superstars aren’t called out for their flaws.
November 20th, 2007 at 11:31 am
If I were coach trying to win now I think I’d try West-Wally-Gelabale (helps West facilitate)-Thomas (as soon as he is ready)-Petro as starters and bring all the former starters off the bench. To send a message to the starters that they aren’t guaranteed anything and aren’t playing enough defense and aren’t running the offense efficently either. I’d play slower too- at least while this group is in.
By the numbers there are hints this might be a better defending lineup than current starters, but that isn’t saying a lot. I think they could get enough good shots out of West, Wally and Thomas but you’d have to try it and see and scrap it if not..
Watson, Durant, Green, Wilcox, Collison would be a strong scoring bench. Maybe against subs at a higher rate their defense wouldn’t be as weak.
This isnt a solution as stated long-term of course. In reality it is a fake starting lineup. But if the real starters come off the bench and have to prove themselves and maybe are a little fresher in late game because of later start it might help win. If they want to.
November 20th, 2007 at 11:34 am
“But the rebounding right now is strong enough that it doesn’t appear an issue on this topic. If the standing reach is indeed low the place where it may be more of an issue is shot defense- not extending high enough to block basket vision.
It appears he does have good hops. I don’t know for sure but maybe that works better defending jumpshots than post play- at least a good portion of it where the defender has to hold position and may not get airborne. {Crow}
I second that assessment.
November 20th, 2007 at 11:37 am
One of Durant / Green fights into starting lineup again - at SF. One of Wilcox / Collison gets in again later at PF or C depending of their play and the play of these 1st quarter starters. 3rd quarter I’d probably vary whether the fake starters and the backups start then depending on first half play.
West may not be the PG of the future but I’d give it a try and see and make a discovery or move on knowing the impression was correct.
November 20th, 2007 at 11:39 am
AK believes Durant is a joke of a player in comparison to Oden’s greatness.
November 20th, 2007 at 11:41 am
AK: “Actually, Big_Worm, I’m one of the few guys who praises the players who don’t get enough respect — such as low-post defensive stalwarts (e.g., Joel Pryzbilla & Jeff Foster), shutdown perimeter defenders (e.g., Bruce Bowen & Renaldo Balkman), players who consistently draw fouls (e.g., Corey Maggette & Kyle Lowry), efficient scorers (e.g., Josh Childress & David Lee), and careful ball-handlers (e.g., Jose Calderon & Antonio Daniels) — yet, at the same time, it bothers me whenever so-called superstars aren’t called out for their flaws.”
I second that research, assessment and posture.
November 20th, 2007 at 11:43 am
West - Wilks? - 2008 #1 pick
Durant - Gelabale - ZZ - Wilkins
Green - Wilkins - ZZ - Durant
Wilcox - Collison - Petro - Green
Swift - Thomas - Sene - Petro
November 20th, 2007 at 11:45 am
Here’s the thing. AK is right that Durant has not been a good player (in terms of doing things to win ball games) this season.
I recognize that. I also say that I have no interest in nitpicking Durant’s game. On some level, I’m not even interested in analyzing it right now.
I’ve seen enough things in the opening of the season to convince me that I believe that Durant will be a superstar in the league, and that his game will look quite a bit different in a couple of years than it does now. That’s all that matters.
November 20th, 2007 at 11:48 am
“I’d like to know which of the defensive numbers you quoted about Durant you feel are the most important?”
The ones that back up his arguement of the minute, duh.
- I just found it interesting because alot of the stats he quoted to say that Kevin Durant is a horrible defender are similar to the ones of Earl Watson and Nick Collison…people he seems to think are pretty decent defensive players. Doesn’t seem to match up to me…
November 20th, 2007 at 11:49 am
We did look bad last night. I’m going to give a little credit to Memphis though. They played pretty well. They pretty much shot us out of the game in the first half. They had strong bench play from Warrick and Lowry. They had 33 assists.
Us playing bad and Memphis/any team playing decent = blowout.
Memphis is young…..but you have to admit that they have some talent. Gasol, Miller, Gay, Conley, Warrick……on paper their future is bright.
- They also have a coach that I think would’ve been perfect for this team…sadly PJ seems to be turning into the coach I thought he would be…
November 20th, 2007 at 11:54 am
Looking at the schedule the Sonics have 7 of their next 8 games at home. Granted three of the games are pretty difficult wins (SA, @LAL, ORL)…however, the other 5 are games that we should consider winnable. If this team does not win more than 3 games in this streatch then I fear that AK’s prediction of sub 20 wins is pretty realistic…
Has anyone taken the time to look at the schedule? The league didn’t seem to do them any favors. Right now they are playing 6 of 8 on the road upcoming they have another 5 game trip. In January they play 8 of 10 on the road..followed by a 7 game homestand. In March they play 10 of 12 on the road (going to be a horrible, horrible month) followed by another 7 game homestand.
Has anyone seem so many long road trips and long homestands? Or is this just random observation.
November 20th, 2007 at 11:58 am
Typical AK, extrapolating a player’s entire career base on minute statistics.
Need I mention that Durant has played a total of 11 NBA games in his career?
THe kid WILL get bigger. Right now he is not used to the speed and strength of the leauge, I don’t think anyone is expecting him to adjust in just 11 games.
I don’t care if Durant is a defensive liability, GIVE ME DURANT ALL DAY ERDAY over any of the “defensive stawarts” AK champions for..
November 20th, 2007 at 12:02 pm
Right now, Gelabale is a much better player than Durant. If the Sonics want to win, they should give Gelabale more minutes than Durant. I am not saying the Sonics’ objective this season should be to win as many games as possible — in fact, I think that would be a mistake. I think they should hope to get another very high lottery pick. But, if they are worried about W-L record, they should play Gelabale more minutes than Durant.
The Sonics are truly bad, as everyone thought. Before the season started, I made the (admittedly not very bold) prediction that the Sonics would win fewer games this season than last, after replacing Lewis and Allen with rookies. That seems like a fairly safe prediction at this early juncture. However, there are some other truly terrible teams in the NBA this year, including in the Western Conference, so Seattle might not wind up with the worst record in the league.
The Sonics would be 1-11 now if Wilkins had not had a career game in Atlanta and won that game almost by himself. Damien is off to a great start this year. If he comes back to earth, the Sonics will be even worse than they have been so far.
I continue to be singularly UNimpressed with Kevin Durant. He did not impress me in college. He was terrible in the summer league. He was terrible in the pre-season. And he’s been terrible in the first 12 regular season games.
I’ll ask again, since I have not gotten any good answers: what can Kevin Durant do that Rashard Lewis can not do better? Dribble? That’s it? Anyone think Durant is going to take the Sonics to high places with “superior dribbling”? He certainly does not dribble well for a shooting guard. Mike Miller dribbled circles around Durant last night.
The only reason I am not saying that Durant was a bad draft pick is because he is so young. He could develop into a great player. But he needs enormous improvement. If he was 2 years older, I would not hesitate to say he was a wasted draft pick. Since he’s only 19, it’s impossible to be sure yet. But he is not showing me much so far.
November 20th, 2007 at 12:03 pm
The early games give me the impression that Green is better suited to play a power forward type role on offense and small forward on defense.
How do you make that fit?
Wilcox or Thomas at C on offense and PF on defense is not an unusal stretch. could work as well as anything there has … but then what?
Theoretically they’d need someone who can defend center, yet play outside and hit jumpers and maybe facilitate some.
Who matches that description? On his good days maybe Petro can defend and hit a few jumpshots. But his good days havent been consistent and I don’t have high hopes. Still I’d try him a bit more run and see.
Others around the league- Okur, B Miller, Garbajosa, Joe Smith, Blount, B Cook, D Marshall. Any available? At a decent price? I don’t know. Miller might be worth thinking about. Especially if they don’t have an elite PG or need years to develop one.
November 20th, 2007 at 12:05 pm
“I just found it interesting because alot of the stats he quoted to say that Kevin Durant is a horrible defender are similar to the ones of Earl Watson and Nick Collison…people he seems to think are pretty decent defensive players. Doesn’t seem to match up to me…” {Myk}
Unlike Kevin Durant, Nick Collison and Earl Watson have a career pattern of playing stout defense. At any rate, Collison and Watson should each improve upon their subpar performances thus far this season during the upcoming weeks.
2006-2007: Collison (Net Points Allowed Per 100 Possessions: -3.2) & Watson (Net Points Allowed Per 100 Possessions: +1.0).
2005-2006: Collison (Net Points Allowed Per 100 Possessions: -1.4), Earl Watson (Net Points Allowed Per 100 Possessions {Denver Nuggets}: -2.4), & Earl Watson (Net Points Allowed Per 100 Possessions {Seattle Supersonics}: -10.5).
2004-2005: Nick Collison (Net Points Allowed Per 100 Possessions: -4.0) & Earl Watson (Net Points Allowed Per 100 Possessions: -6.1).
2003-2004: Earl Watson (Net Points Allowed Per 100 Possessions: -9.9).
Anyhow, Collison will never be a great low-post defender like Jeff Foster, Joel Przybilla, and Radoslav Nesterovic due to his small stature for a center. Collison, moreover, will never be a satisfactory power forward; that’s ’cause his effective field-goal percentage on jump shots (2007-2008: 28.6%; 2006-2007: 28.5%; 2005-2006: 34.0%; 2004-2005: 24.7%) makes him practically useless as a mid-range shooter.
Yeah, I’m no longer an unabashed supporter of Collison.
November 20th, 2007 at 12:06 pm
what can Kevin Durant do that Rashard Lewis can not do better?
Create his own shot.
Rashard Lewis got much better at that in the last couple of years, but Durant has stretches were it looks like he can get a good look any time he wants against any defense.
November 20th, 2007 at 12:12 pm
Miller play hasn’t been good recently. So you’d want to see improvement first. He’s lost weight and that is probably a good idea.
Has 2 years on deal after this season. That seems acceptable if you unloaded at least one unwanted medium or larger contract.
Still probably better to look for a player in draft that could fill this kind of role.
November 20th, 2007 at 12:16 pm
“Right now, Gelabale is a much better player than Durant. If the Sonics want to win, they should give Gelabale more minutes than Durant.”
haha
“I’ll ask again, since I have not gotten any good answers: what can Kevin Durant do that Rashard Lewis can not do better? Dribble? That’s it? Anyone think Durant is going to take the Sonics to high places with “superior dribbling”? He certainly does not dribble well for a shooting guard. Mike Miller dribbled circles around Durant last night.”
What does Mike Miller’s ballhandling ability have to do with Durants? But again why are you comparing Durant to Lewis…..they aren’t/weren’t mutually exclusive.
“The only reason I am not saying that Durant was a bad draft pick is because he is so young. He could develop into a great player. But he needs enormous improvement. If he was 2 years older, I would not hesitate to say he was a wasted draft pick. Since he’s only 19, it’s impossible to be sure yet.”
Fair enough. As a sonics fan I’m optimistic and think the best is yet to come.
November 20th, 2007 at 12:19 pm
Right now, Gelabale is a much better player than Durant. If the Sonics want to win, they should give Gelabale more minutes than Durant. I am not saying the Sonics’ objective this season should be to win as many games as possible — in fact, I think that would be a mistake. I think they should hope to get another very high lottery pick. But, if they are worried about W-L record, they should play Gelabale more minutes than Durant.
- Hmmm, one of the dumbest things I’ve seen here in awhile…
I continue to be singularly UNimpressed with Kevin Durant. He did not impress me in college. He was terrible in the summer league. He was terrible in the pre-season. And he’s been terrible in the first 12 regular season games.
- Is there really a point in debating with someone who is so blind that he was unimpressed with Kevin Durant’s play while at the University of Texas. He might end up being one of the worst NBA players of all time. That in no way takes away from his completely dominating time at UT…
I’ll ask again, since I have not gotten any good answers: what can Kevin Durant do that Rashard Lewis can not do better? Dribble? That’s it? Anyone think Durant is going to take the Sonics to high places with “superior dribbling”? He certainly does not dribble well for a shooting guard. Mike Miller dribbled circles around Durant last night.
- LOL…hmm I don’t know…maybe we should go see how well Rashard Lewis was playing at age 19. Seriously, this is one of the worst posts I’ve ever seen. I’m not even that big of a Durant supporter (other than the whole…hey lets give the 19 year old kid more than 11 games to throw him under the bus) and yet your comments baffle me…
November 20th, 2007 at 12:19 pm
“I continue to be singularly UNimpressed with Kevin Durant. He did not impress me in college. He was terrible in the summer league. He was terrible in the pre-season. And he’s been terrible in the first 12 regular season games.
Well if you were unimpressed with his college career, then there’s nothing more to say.
What was it that UNimpressed you?
The kid was simply the sickest freshman player in college basketball history.
Here’s Bob Knight’s assessment of KD35
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yc4CGY4vSXQ
In Knight, we trust my friend… in Knight, we trust.
“I’ll ask again, since I have not gotten any good answers: what can Kevin Durant do that Rashard Lewis can not do better? Dribble? That’s it? ”
First of all, being able to dribble is HUGE. Durant can dribble and create for himself, Lewis could not. Because of that ability, Durant gets to the line more. That my friend, is going to be a tremendous asset to the team.
A star player can get to the court anywhere, anytime he wants. Durant has that ability, but he just needs to slow down.
I can go on forever explaining what seperates Raw-Lew and KD35. But to put it in one sentence, Durant at 19 is already light-years ahead of the 19 yr-old Lewis in terms of basketball skill.
November 20th, 2007 at 12:22 pm
Simpler than the three player dance I described, maybe Green (at PF on offense and SF on defense) just needs a SF on offense and PF on defense. Turkoglu is one. Bonner.
November 20th, 2007 at 12:23 pm
Crow, I’m glad to see you coming to my side at least for one game about bringing Durant off the bench. I’m not sure if I would employ such a tactic with the entire starting lineup because some guys aren’t having the same problems with shot selection as Durant. I’d apply a band-aid such as starting Wally over Durant at the SG position and West over Watson at the PG position. Wally has played against the other team’s best players his whole career; it wouldn’t be a jump for him. To reiterate, Durant coming off the bench is not a demotion as Ginobli and Terry have been the best players on their respective teams despite coming off the bench for Dallas.
November 20th, 2007 at 12:25 pm
“I’ll ask again, since I have not gotten any good answers: what can Kevin Durant do that Rashard Lewis can not do better? Dribble? That’s it? Anyone think Durant is going to take the Sonics to high places with “superior dribbling”? He certainly does not dribble well for a shooting guard. Mike Miller dribbled circles around Durant last night.” {The Big Dipper}
Although I bemoan one-dimensional spot shooters like Jason Kapono, Kyle Korver, and Wally Szczerbiak, versatile swingmen such as Mike Miller pique my interest. Along with being an proficient shooter from beyond the arc, Miller has superlative ball-hanlding skills, keen court vision, deceptive foot speed, and a phenomenal basketball IQ.
November 20th, 2007 at 12:26 pm
But if Durant is really the starting SF of the future then matching with Green at SF is either matching up a substitution lineup or irrelevant if he is recast as a PF.
Durant at SF will roll with a conventional PF.
November 20th, 2007 at 12:27 pm
My man, there’s no way in heaven or hell Durant will ever come off the bench.
Multiple reasons.
N.1- You don’t draft a star-player and not develop him. Durant needs PT, he needs to smell the floor, he needs to rub his sweat off grown men…
not exactly but you get the picture, idea I meant.
that came out all wrong didn’t it?
N.2- Jason Terry and Ginobli are not franchise player, neither was Andrea Bargnani. You can’t look at KD in the same light.
N.3- Durant = tickets draw. That right there seals it.
November 20th, 2007 at 12:27 pm
I’ll ask again, since I have not gotten any good answers: what can Kevin Durant do that Rashard Lewis can not do better?
- I’d also be pretty happy if Kevin Durant in his first 10 games of basketball was playing well enough to be seen as someone who immediately justified a $100 million dollar contract. Maybe you should do some research and see that even the great LeBron James wasn’t the player he is today when he came into the league.
The kid has work ethic…the kid has charisma…the kid has talent…
If someone can’t see his potential then they should stop following basketball because they don’t understand the game.
November 20th, 2007 at 12:29 pm
“In Wilcox’s case, we’re all aware of his defensive shortcomings.”
The Sonics surrender over five fewer net points per 100 possessions with him on the court than with him off the court. If this statistic is being used to cite the defensive weaknesses of Kevin Durant and also being used to cite the defensive brilliance of players such as Joel Pryzbilla and Jeff Foster, then why is it not being used to analyze Wilcox’s defensive performance so far in this regular season? I think Wilcox is a weak rebounder for his position but rebounding and defense are not necessarily the same thing.
November 20th, 2007 at 12:33 pm
I agree a whole new lineup is dramatic talk and unlikely.
Durant off the bench is a sensitive subject because they don’t want to frustrate, embrass or piss him off- or a lot of fans. It would likely only be temporary just to try to shake off the pattern he is in and give him a perspective that is probably new to him and an opportunity that he might exploit and increase his confidence (though I doubt it has wavered).
But I don’t plan to argue heavily for it.
November 20th, 2007 at 12:36 pm
It seems to me some of you have taken your sports talk training wheels off a bit too early. Here’s the Reality:
1. Kevin Durant is out performing every other rookie that was drafted this year. He is stepping up, asking for the ball, and making some big time shots.
2. Kevin Durant is 19! How many kids have come into the NBA and done what he is doing?
3. We are 12 games in. Do you really expect KD to go from NCAA College Basketball Player of the Year to Jordan all in one year. If while putting together his game this first year he also averages 20+ ppg I’ll take it.
November 20th, 2007 at 12:39 pm
Wilcox’s D isn’t a force but it appears decent right now. On his man.
His on/off looks good because it is a comparison to Green and Collison at PF and both are showing poor defensive results there (better at SF and C respectively).
November 20th, 2007 at 12:41 pm
“Kevin Durant is out performing every other rookie that was drafted this year.”
Only on scoring. A product of the most shots of any rookie.
November 20th, 2007 at 12:42 pm
“I’ll ask again, since I have not gotten any good answers: what can Kevin Durant do that Rashard Lewis can not do better?”
He’s blocking more shots per game at 19 than Lewis ever has in his career.
He’s averaging steal levels on par with Rashard’s best year in his career.
He gets to the FT line as often as Rashard did in his best year.
As a 19 year old Rashard shot 68% from the line, Durant’s better there as well.
Give Durant the talent Lewis had on his team his first couple years and he’d show more of an all-around game. He’s facing the best a team has on D everynight and anytime he starts to get it rolling that team comes with a double.
November 20th, 2007 at 12:44 pm
“The Sonics surrender over five fewer net points per 100 possessions with him on the court than with him off the court. If this statistic is being used to cite the defensive weaknesses of Kevin Durant and also being used to cite the defensive brilliance of players such as Joel Pryzbilla and Jeff Foster, then why is it not being used to analyze Wilcox’s defensive performance so far in this regular season? I think Wilcox is a weak rebounder for his position but rebounding and defense are not necessarily the same thing.” {Alex Chan}
Jeff Foster, Joel Przybilla, and Radoslav Nesterovic have a long track records that illuminates their labeling as superior interior defenders. Until Chris Wilcox has shown for an extended period of time that he’s become anything more than a soft, lazy presence in the post on defense, he’s open for criticism.
November 20th, 2007 at 12:45 pm
“Being able to create your own shot” is absolutely meaningless if you can’t MAKE that shot. That is just a meaningless phrase. Give me someone who can spot up and make a 3-pointer or drill a jump shot coming off a screen any day. There are tons of guys who can “create their own shots.” So what? The only thing that matters is whether or not that shot goes in. Talking about someone’s ability to “creat their own shot” when they are shooting 37% from the field is just plain hilarious.
Shooting is by far the most important skill in basketball, and shooting percentage is by far the most important stat in basketball. Durant’s shooting percentages in college were not impressive, and in the NBA they have been abysmal.
Many of the posts here are typical of people who think they know something about basketball but actually have no clue. If the first thing you look at and talk about is not shooting, then you have no idea of what is going on.
I suggest you all read this column by Art Thiel, in whcih he quoted John Chaney, former Temple coach. One of the best interviews about basketball I have ever read. Here is an excerpt:
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/thiel/160160_thie11.html
“This is a very simple game. Jim Maloney, my old, dear friend who passed away, said, ‘Don’t ever, ever, in your life pass up a shooter.’ It’s easy to teach a shooter how to play defense. But you can’t go recruit defensive players and try to teach them to shoot. Nineteen, 20 years old, it’s over … You can’t teach him how to shoot.
“I get letters from fathers: ‘He can vertical jump 50 million fathoms, whatever. But you can teach him how to shoot. You’re a legend.’ I said, ‘Give him to my enemy. I don’t give a (rip) how good he can jump.’
“You figure we shoot 60-something shots and St. Joe’s shoots 43. Against Villanova we shot 70 shots. They shot 43. We shot almost twice as many shots. And then we end up with four turnovers, five turnovers. We lead the nation in low turnovers every year. I never lost games where I had five turnovers and get twice as many shots as the other guy.
“A blind man ain’t got no business at a circus. And that’s what I have, three blind mice, maybe 10 of them. How many guys do I got? Twelve of them.”
End of quote. Now my quote: The three most important things in basketball are: shooting; shooting; and shooting. You guys who want to talk about dribbling, steals, ball-handling, etc. are just playing with yourselves.
November 20th, 2007 at 12:50 pm
“what can Kevin Durant do that Rashard Lewis can not do better?”
Kevin Durant plays better than Lewis when Lewis is 19. Durant knows how to get to the foul line when he struggles. Durant able to make a game winning shot 9th game of his career. Durants ability to block shot.
November 20th, 2007 at 12:59 pm
“and shooting percentage is by far the most important stat in basketball”?
I guess we should trade Durant for Mickael Pietrus…
November 20th, 2007 at 1:01 pm
Jeff Foster, Joel Przybilla, and Radoslav Nesterovic have a long track records that illuminates their labeling as superior interior defenders. Until Chris Wilcox has shown for an extended period of time that he’s become anything more than a soft, lazy presence in the post on defense, he’s open for criticism.
- Wait…so for Chris Wilcox 11 games isn’t enough to show anything…but Kevin Durant it is black and white proof of his ineptitude?
November 20th, 2007 at 1:01 pm
“End of quote. Now my quote: The three most important things in basketball are: shooting; shooting; and shooting. You guys who want to talk about dribbling, steals, ball-handling, etc. are just playing with yourselves.”
You’r philosophy has Wally Walker written all over it. Look how well that worked for us the last few seasons.
November 20th, 2007 at 1:02 pm
Durant compared to all rookies
Minutes 1st
effective FG% 31st of 42.
3pt % 12th
FT% 10th
Rebounds per game 7th.
Rebounds per 48 minutes 28th.
Assists per game 3rd
Assists per 48 minutes 14th.
Turnovers per game Highest
Turnover per 48 minutes 5th highest
Steals per game 1st
I didn’t know this earlier, good for him, but… Steals per 48 minutes 13th
Blocks per game 5th
Blocks per 48 minutes 13th.
Durant’s burden and opportunity is his top minutes and shots.
Delonte West is outrebounding Durant per minute, each from a guard spot. Wally is out passing him per minute.
November 20th, 2007 at 1:02 pm
Shooting is by far the most important skill in basketball, and shooting percentage is by far the most important stat in basketball. Durant’s shooting percentages in college were not impressive, and in the NBA they have been abysmal.
^^^^^Honestly…are you really this stupid^^^^^
Do you really need people to go through and prove how horrible that statement you just made is?? Please do not post another comment until you can understand this…please, please, please.
November 20th, 2007 at 1:04 pm
I think Durant is definately suffering from playing out of position…in college he had a pretty good low post inside type game…the coaching staff (who apparently admits is just letting players run freely right now so they can “get to know what everyone can do”) is not not doing him any favors.
November 20th, 2007 at 1:05 pm
“Until Chris Wilcox has shown for an extended period of time that he’s become anything more than a soft, lazy presence in the post on defense, he’s open for criticism.”
The point I was making with the post was that some statistics show Wilcox has not been a soft or lazy presence in the post on defense thus far in the regular season. That’s why I wrote “so far in the regular season.” Players such as Joel Pryzbilla and the Collins twin that plays for New Jersey may be excellent man-to-man defensive players; however, their ineptitude offensively cancels out whatever they bring to the table defensively. Offense is just as important, if not more important, than defense.
November 20th, 2007 at 1:06 pm
I really wish the Sonics could get their hands on a good proven coach…each guy they bring in here makes me realize how special it was to have Karl (I know he wasn’t proven when we hired him either) on the bench…
November 20th, 2007 at 1:06 pm
People need to realize this is KD’s first year in the league. There’s a lot of adjustments he and many other rookies have to go through. Durant is an adequate defender so far, though you can tell he’s a bit tired out there. Having to guard quick SGs will do that to you, along with the fact that the college schedule of games is far different than the 82 schedule the NBA has.
He’s 19. He hasn’t filled out his frame yet. I can take his faults as part of the learning process. He’s got a great knack for scoring the ball and the future move of putting him at SF will help him. In 2-4 years, KD will be respectable as a defender.
Patience young grasshopper. (Anyone jumping off the KD ship, please re-read that last sentence. You’re expecting way too much out of KD, as hyped as he may be.)
November 20th, 2007 at 1:08 pm
Myk: please feel free to ignore any of my posts. They are wasted on morons like you.
November 20th, 2007 at 1:13 pm
Dipper, you are kidding me right?
If shooting is the ONLY aspect of the game then you might have misinterpreted that article.
You say “what good does it do if you can’t make a shot”, I say “What good does shooting do if you can’t get open?”
Fact is, you need both. Durant has the stroke and mechanic to be a great shooter.
THere are soooooo many fallacies in your argument that many other posters have pointed out.
The one MAJOR flaw you have is neglecting the fact that the Kevin Durant you are unimpressed right now is not the end product.
12 games my friend. TWELVE!!!
THe kid will improve, just sit back and enjoy
November 20th, 2007 at 1:13 pm
Dipper Rashard Lewis’ FG % was 36.5 his rookie year. Granted that was in fewer minutes but I’d think that’d make it easier to keep percentages at a more moderate level.
He obviously learned to shoot much better, but somehow never learned to play defense.
November 20th, 2007 at 1:15 pm
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2004024509_funforest20m.html
It looks like the Fun Forest is on its way out. I wonder what implicatons that will have on the Seattle Center as a whole and the Key Arena issue…
November 20th, 2007 at 1:16 pm
Yes Durant is just 19 and very talented and will get better. How much better is not totally clear to some, though it is to others, pro and con.
Exactly how good or bad his stats are right now can be just a thing in itself or ignored according to personal preference.
It is also being used or ignored in that future debate. The early stats represent just the opening note in a long story.
November 20th, 2007 at 1:21 pm
Big Dip, are you retarded? Are you a conspiracy hatched by this site to up the post count? Do you watch the games or just look at stats? Have you followed the game at all, ever? Have you been bewildered time and again as promising rookie after promising rookie after playing, you know, as rookies, actually with time DEVELOPED instead of staying frozen in youth and time and defined by small sample sizes and the other players around them, and developed often more or less into the player people who actually watch the game and see the signs and skills that speak volumes of POTENTIAL said they would?
It’s a wonder anyone in the NBA ever got off the bench in high school. How anyone is is how they’ll always be, with no upside or downside. The game isn’t learned, it’s innate, and how a player will forever play is determined by their first 10 games as a pro, I mean as a college player, I mean in high school, I mean…. Weird!
November 20th, 2007 at 1:27 pm
Ballholic: that is not a good comparison. Lewis never played a year in college, like Durant. This is Durant’s 2nd year out of high school. In Lewis’s 2nd year out of high school (which is the fair comparison) he shot .486 from the field.
I admit it is far too early to decide on Durant. I’m only saying that up to now, including his college career, summer league, preseason, and his first 12 games, I have not been impressed. I judge every player first and foremost on their shooting percentages. If Durant becomes a great shooter, then he will be a great player. That is possible. I am only saying what I think up to this very early point in his career.
Durant is good enough at all those other things — rebounding, passing, dribbling, etc. Those are not the issue, in my opinion. How I will judge Durant will be on how well he shoots.
November 20th, 2007 at 1:29 pm
Moff: Let’s just say I am supremely confident that I know vastly more about the game of basketball than you will ever know, and just leave it at that.
November 20th, 2007 at 1:31 pm
Dip: no one doubts your confidence.
November 20th, 2007 at 1:33 pm
“I’m only saying that up to now, including his college career, summer league, preseason, and his first 12 games, I have not been impressed.”
That whole National POY thing as a freshman in college thing didn’t impress you there’s no point in further discussing this. I will however refrain from any name calling.
November 20th, 2007 at 1:35 pm
You are correct: awards don’t impress me.
November 20th, 2007 at 1:39 pm
AK,
Do you respect Kwame Brown? I mean he gets killed in the media for being a #1 overall pick and the expectations, but he is a real valuable as a low post defender especially 1 on 1 against the best like Garnett, ONeal, Duncan, Ming etc… He gets killed also because his offense isn’t the best and that he makes 9million a year and that he was traded for Caron Butler. He is really valuable and has become selfless especially when playing with superstars. He has finally found his niche in the NBA.
November 20th, 2007 at 1:44 pm
“Shooting is by far the most important skill in basketball, and shooting percentage is by far the most important stat in basketball.”
I’m not really that into stats. But you have to realize how ridiculous that statement is. Nothing wrong with shooting a high percentage……but basketball is a game of dimensions IMO. You can’t just be a shooter anymore. The more dimensions you have in your game……the better. It makes you more dangerous.
Is Jason Kidd horrible? His shooting percentage has never been that great.
There is more to basketball than just shooting (and shooting percentage).
November 20th, 2007 at 1:47 pm
“Durant is good enough at all those other things — rebounding, passing, dribbling, etc. Those are not the issue, in my opinion. How I will judge Durant will be on how well he shoots.”
Is that the criteria for everyone? Does it vary from player to player?
Its a pretty simplistic way to judge someone IMO. I’d like to think that most people look at overall skills vs just shooting %.
November 20th, 2007 at 1:51 pm
If Durant stays at SG one other name that came to my attention is Kevin Martin. Shooting percentage and turnover are currently different and in Martin’s favor. Presumably Durant will get dialed in on these. Durant’s assists and rebound and defensive stats are similar to Martin’s. A super-sized Kevin Martin would be an interesting piece. But is Kevin Martin a great winning team piece? He’ll get a few more seasons to prove one way or another and Durant will get 5 or more years to prove his case too. Martin currently not only among league leaders on eFG% but also in taking it to the rack and getting foul shots (Durant currently 78th in league on this one among players getting major minutes).
If Durant’s gets stronger and bigger than this name might not be appropriate any more and Anthony and McGrady or others can be mentioned, if you go for comparisons. Right at the moment I think Martin has some value as a comparison. Not sure what their design is and not proposing them as a model for sure but they have Artest next to him. That part makes sense.
November 20th, 2007 at 1:52 pm
“How I will judge Durant will be on how well he shoots.”
Good to know, Eddy Curry is great while Chris Bosh sucks.
“You are correct: awards don’t impress me.”
Neither do your analytical skills, so we’re even.
“Is Jason Kidd horrible?”
He’s much worse than Rajon Rondo….
November 20th, 2007 at 1:59 pm
Crow said:
“FT% 10th”
Seriously? Are you telling me there are 9 other rookies shooting better than 84% from the line? What, are they 2-2? Durant’s 53-63.
Come on -
November 20th, 2007 at 2:00 pm
“Is Jason Kidd horrible?”
He’s much worse than Rajon Rondo….
Boston 8-1
New Jersey 4-7
November 20th, 2007 at 2:02 pm
What?! And if Kidd were on Boston and Rondo on New Jersey?
November 20th, 2007 at 2:03 pm
Scott I’ve gone back and forth with Dipper on Durant vs. Lewis. I’ve told him what he does better/is doing better.
At the time it was points/rebounds/steals/blocks and assists.
I just didn’t realize the only criteria was shooting %. In that case I can’t discuss anymore. It is true that Durant is shooting a low percentage. I’ll lose that argument everytime. Pretty convenient how that works.
November 20th, 2007 at 2:03 pm
LOL, Big Dipper HAS to be a joke account. He can’t be serious
November 20th, 2007 at 2:04 pm
“He’s much worse than Rajon Rondo….
Boston 8-1
New Jersey 4-7″
Oh gawd.
November 20th, 2007 at 2:04 pm
stir the pot dipper. stir the pot.
November 20th, 2007 at 2:05 pm
Dipper is Skip Bayless. It has to be.
November 20th, 2007 at 2:08 pm
“Players such as Joel Pryzbilla and the Collins twin that plays for New Jersey may be excellent man-to-man defensive players; however, their ineptitude offensively cancels out whatever they bring to the table defensively. Offense is just as important, if not more important, than defense.”
Jason Collins, Jarron Collins, Jeff Foster, Joel Przybilla, and Radoslav Nesterovic are arguably the five best man-to-man interior defenders currently playing in the NBA; however, all of them are fairly useless on offense. Nevertheless, Jason Collins (Net +/- Production: +4.9), Jarron Collins (Net +/- Production: +3.4), Foster (Net +/- Production: +1.3), Przybilla (Net +/- Production: +2.5), and Nesterovic (Net +/- Production: +3.4) all had a positive influence for their respective teams when on the court.
“The three most important things in basketball are: shooting; shooting; and shooting. You guys who want to talk about dribbling, steals, ball-handling, etc. are just playing with yourselves.” {The Big Dipper}
Well, your glorification of shooting efficiency explains the incredible devotion that you’ve got for Rashard Lewis — who’s set for life with the six-year, $118 million contract that he inexplicably received from the Orlando Magic this past off-season — yet, that notwithstanding, it startles me that anybody would so blatantly ignore every other facet within the game of basketball.
Now, even though shooting efficiency is an important trait — which is why I’ve advocated acquiring Josh Childress (Field-Goal Percentage: 58.7%; Effective Field-Goal Percentage: 61.3%; True Shooting Percentage: 67.7%) and, moreover, have created the following trade proposal — it’s just one of many factors that determines a player’s overall value.
As I’ve already professed here several times today, man-to-man defense — whether it’s along the perimeter or in the paint — and avoiding turnovers are two of the most overlooked, yet significant qualities that can be possessed by a basketball player. Shit, that’s a staple of my philosophy.
Anyway, here’s the abovementioned trade proposal whereby Childress is dealt from the Atlanta Hawks to the Seattle Supersonics.
FROM ATLANTA & TO SEATTLE
SF Josh Childress ($3,631,450)
PG Tyronn Lue ($3,500,000)
C Lorenzen Wright ($3,250,000)
PG Anthony Johnson ($2,860,000)
FROM SEATTLE & TO ATLANTA
PG Earl Watson ($5,800,000)
SF Damien Wilkins ($2,900,000)
C Mouhamed Sene ($2,105,520)
PF Johan Petro ($1,077,120)
http://realgm.com/src_checktrade.php?tradeid=4297482
Not only is Childress the perfect type of player who’d mask Kevin Durant’s deficiencies, but Tyronn Lue, Lorenzen Wright, and Anthony Johnson’s expiring contracts would be an added bonus.
November 20th, 2007 at 2:15 pm
How can you be unimpressed with KD’s High School and College career? Since it’s still fresh in my mind, I’ll refer back to last year when the unimpressive Durant had arguably one of THE BEST seasons as a college FRESHMAN.
35 - Games played
25.8 - Points per game
11.1 - Rebounds per game
47.2 FG%
The stats don’t tell the full story though, as Durant routinely held a clinic on the court. By my count, he had 10 games in which he scored at least 30 points. There’s a reason scouts have been on him since his high school days.
KD has a great work ethic. He is not satisfied with his game, nor his team’s game. He’s got the drive and the pure ability to be one of the greatest of this generation. In no way am I saying he’s already a star, he’s far from it, but potential for greatness is undeniable.
Again, he’s 19. For those of us who can say we remember being 19, can you even imagine the kind of pressure on him? He’s got the weight of a city on his shoulders, a team on his shoulders, and he’s not even old enough to legally drink. He’s tired and he’s forcing his game too much.
Just for fun, here’s a few stat comparisons of a few other players you might know.
Kobe Bryant 1998-1999 (3rd season as a pro, 1st season starting)
Age 20
50 Games played
50 Games started
37.9 Minutes a game
19.9 Points per game
5.3 Rebounds per game
3.1 Turnovers per game
And that’s after 2 seasons of rotting on LA’s bench.
Tracy McGrady 1999-2000 (3rd season as a pro, 1st season in which he got a decent amount of starts.)
Age 20-21
79 Games played
34 Games started
31.2 Minutes per game
15.4 Points per game
6.4 Rebounds per game
2.0 Turnovers per game
Kevin Durant 2007-2008 (1st season in league, 1st season starting)
Age 19
12 Games played
12 Games started
33.8 Minutes per game
19.0 Points per game
4.2 Rebounds per game
3.58 Turnovers per game
Too early to really compare them statistically-wise, but you get the picture. For most players, even the future stars, it takes some time to get adjusted to the rigors of NBA basketball. I’m sure many of us could come up with examples of players who made the leap from either high school or college and had very great starts to their pro careers, a la Michael Jordan, but that’s not the point.
Again, patience is key. Though, can Seattle fans really afford to be patient with the relocation looming? It’s a tough call.
November 20th, 2007 at 2:15 pm
Jason Kidd is playing absolutely terrible basketball so far this year. You disagree? There is no way you can make up for shooting 34%. That is just pathetic. If you don’t think that is one reason why the Nets are 4-7, then I can’t help you.
November 20th, 2007 at 2:21 pm
“Dipper is Skip Bayless. It has to be.” {Menace}
Dammit, Menace, I thought that I was Skip Bayless!
In all reality, though, I actually use logic and statistical analysis to support my viewpoints; thus, I’m nothing like Bayless. The Big Dipper, however, is closing in on that territory.
I can’t hate on T.B.D. too much here, though; he’s one of the few guys who agrees with me about Kevin Durant.
“Good to know, Eddy Curry is great while Chris Bosh sucks.” {Scott}
Eddy Curry epitomizes that having a high field-goal percentage doesn’t compensate for being a fat, lazy slug who doesn’t pass, rebound, block shots, or play defense worth shit. Except for Antoine Walker, there’s no other player in the NBA who’s game I detest more than Curry.
November 20th, 2007 at 2:21 pm
And Mr. Dip _____, If you really believe that Rondo is a better PG than Kidd is… what are you smoking? May I have some please?
Kidd is one of the greatest all around PGs in the league, though his career is coming to a close. How many games do those old legs have left in them? Enough to get Kobe’s endorsement. You don’t hear Kobe begging Jerry Bus to bring in Rondo do you? Basing your judgment of players off of their teams respective records is a lil loosey-goosey don’t you think? You do remember who Rondo plays for right? Watkins could man the point for Boston and it wouldn’t make much of a difference. KG | PP | RA = Gamers.
November 20th, 2007 at 2:24 pm
Sure it’s maybe ONE reason the Nets aren’t doing well, but if you can’t see how what Kidd does exceptionally well and better than Rondo wouldn’t be a considerable benefit to a team like the Celtics, well….
November 20th, 2007 at 2:25 pm
“Eddy Curry epitomizes that having a high field-goal percentage doesn’t compensate for being a fat, lazy slug who doesn’t pass, rebound, block shots, or play defense worth shit. Except for Antoine Walker, there’s no other player in the NBA who’s game I detest more than Curry.”
Agreed.
I’d add Randolph to that group.
November 20th, 2007 at 2:25 pm
dipper, are you clay bennett?
November 20th, 2007 at 2:26 pm
shooting percentages depend on the difficulty of the shots. Durant has taken some very difficult shots early on with people in his face and long range jumpers which in effect will decrease his shooting %.
Being the main guy on the offense will decrease your FG% and effiency because you are expected to take the shots in tough situations. In contrast, a majority of role players at the guard position may get to take shots that are less contested, less pressure packed, and not as forced ie Bruce Bowen (i know he has made some big shots but he always wide open).
Lewis was NEVER EVER the focal point of the offense in his first few years. He could go against the opposing teams 2nd team defense and play in non-crunch time situations. He benefitted from the lack of respect given to him early in his career. Durant has none of that.
I used to love when during Lebron’s rookie year, people seemed to think he wasn’t that good, he couldn’t shoot, he forces too many shots, and he plays no defense. Its much the same thing with Durant in that Lebron was the focal point on his team from the very start and got to go against the best of the best from the opposing team on a nightly basis.
November 20th, 2007 at 2:31 pm
On a NJN note, how many of their games have you really seen to make such a statement?
I wasn’t aware that Kidd’s line of:
10.8 PPG
8.6 RPG
10.3 APG
For those of you that know Kidd, you know that he’s always been a pretty poor shooter. That’s not his game. He’s a playmaker, a veteran, with poise and savvy. The only thing that really worries me about him this year is the hike in TOs he has this season. Looking at their team though, I can see why.
Richard Jefferson and Vince Carter do not equal Kevin Garnett, Paul Pierce, and Ray Allen. Seriously take a look at that roster and tell me that Rondo in place of Kidd would instantly make NJN better. I bet you that you can’t. (But probably will anyways.)
November 20th, 2007 at 2:39 pm
Dipper,
I think you are trolling, but if not, Carmelo Anthony is a better comp for Durant than Lewis. As for the myth about guys not being able to improve shooting, Gary Payton, Kobe Bryant, LeBron James, Carmelo Anthony, and this Michael Jordan dude come to mind off the top of my head and there are THOUSANDS of players who have improved as shooters.
Jump shooting is one of the worst ways to win in the league, as the previous Sonics proved. The easiest way to get a high percentage shot is to play lock down defense and score off a fast break the other way. One of biggest advantages of a fast break is the team gets a scoring opportunity before the defense is set The second most efficient method of scoring is shooting free throws. The teams that shoot free throws are the teams that aggressively attack the basket. Jump shooters have off nights. They can fatigue as a season goes on or on the end of a long road trip. However, if a team plays aggressively on defense, it’s a lot more consistent than a jump shooting team.
Defense tends to be one of the hardest things to improve because defense is a lot about mindset and commitment. Once a player gets into the league and develops bad defensive habits, regardless of the talent, it is very difficult for a coach to get a player to fix those bad habits. Rashard Lewis in particular proves my point. If you watched him as a rookie, he was a high energy, defensive spark plug coming off the bench. But as he got into some bad habits, he simply couldn’t be bothered wasting energy on defense.
To recap this point, you are making some pretty misplaced statements backed by erroneous logic.
November 20th, 2007 at 2:41 pm
“I’d add Randolph to that group.” {Scott}
Eddy Curry, Zach Randolph, and Antoine Walker are proof positive that you don’t have to be the worst player in the NBA — which, as far as I’m concerned, is Michael Ruffin — to be a negative force.
“Sure it’s maybe ONE reason the Nets aren’t doing well, but if you can’t see how what Kidd does exceptionally well and better than Rondo wouldn’t be a considerable benefit to a team like the Celtics, well….” {Moffet}
Indeed, Jason Kidd (Player Efficiency Rating: 19.8; Net +/- Production: +16.7; Net Points Per 100 Possessions: +20.7; Net Points Allowed Per 100 Possessions: -8.0; Assists Per Game: 10.3; Assists Per Turnover: 2.51; Rebounds Per Game: 8.6; Steals Per Game: 1.73) is one of the best all-around players in the NBA. Kidd, in essence, is a terrific man-to-man perimeter defender, a tremendous help defender at clogging the passing lanes, a formidable rebounder, and a breathtaking playmaker—there’s no denying it!
November 20th, 2007 at 2:50 pm
“shooting percentages depend on the difficulty of the shots. Durant has taken some very difficult shots early on with people in his face and long range jumpers which in effect will decrease his shooting %.
This is what I’d like to see less of. He shouldn’t be taking those shots, and at the very least, the coaching staff should be discrouraging him from doing so. Unfortunately as Dick Tate pointed out, that’s not the case and they’ve decided to let the kids “put on a show”.
I aggree with AK that Wilcox has proven himself as the best and most efficient scoring option we have, so IMO Kevin should be posted as a perimeter threat while consistently feeding Wilcox down low. Wilcox would be / has been a better decision maker with the ball and in effect could get Durant more wide open shots than the rookie can for himself. If Durant’s not open, I’d really like to see him develope a slashing game first, whether he’s getting stripped or not.
FYI, not in any way arguing with you Wolfrey, just using your points to illuminate mine.
Being the main guy on the offense will decrease your FG% and effiency because you are expected to take the shots in tough situations. In contrast, a majority of role players at the guard position may get to take shots that are less contested, less pressure packed, and not as forced ie Bruce Bowen (i know he has made some big shots but he always wide open).
I like Crow’s comparison to Martin here. Martin developed such an efficient scoring game by taking / making easy fast break buckets off of steals or in transition. Now he has the confidence and dynamic game to score in many more ways. Ideally I’d like to see Durant develope in this way. Let the vets show you how it’s done and play within that game. Choose your moments carefully and take high percentage shots. Easier said than done on this team, but too many (non-fastbreak) shots going up with 18-20 seconds on the clock.
November 20th, 2007 at 2:54 pm
Damn,
the second, third, fourth and sixth paragraphs of my ranting post shouldn’t be in italicized. The rest are quotes from Jimmy Wolfrey.
November 20th, 2007 at 3:19 pm
“I used to love when during Lebron’s rookie year, people seemed to think he wasn’t that good, he couldn’t shoot, he forces too many shots, and he plays no defense. Its much the same thing with Durant in that Lebron was the focal point on his team from the very start and got to go against the best of the best from the opposing team on a nightly basis.” {Jimmy Wolfrey}
As a rookie, LeBron James’ issues defensively were a matter of focus. Right now, though, James is finally putting together a complete game — as his offensive firepower is now complimented with ruthless defense — which will soon catapult him from superstardom into legendary status.
With Kevin Durant, however, his problems on defense run way deeper than that due to his slender frame, so-so agility, piss-poor lateral quickness, and lack of strength. On offense, Durant is strictly a swingman in the NBA — for he was able to play power forward with the Texas Longhorns simply ’cause of his height and Rick Barnes’ offensive scheme — while James, on the other hand, is capable of playing four positions (i.e., point guard through power forward) at a high level.
Anyhow, James is a truly transcendent player — à la Earvin “Magic” Johnson and Oscar Robertson before him — who comes around just once every twenty-five years. Yet, regardless of Bill Simmons’ fellating of Durant prior to the 2007 NBA Draft, it’ll be damn near impossible for an inefficient volume shooter and shoddy defender like him to join the elite company of James, Johnson, and Robertson — much less that of the all-time greatest player, Michael Jordan, so let’s not even go there — thus, I think that a lot of folks should quell their expectations.
It’s doubtful that most of y’all will concur with my sentiments, as there’s countless Durant homers here.
November 20th, 2007 at 3:22 pm
Obviously Dipper is just stirring the pot here.
Shooting percentage does matter, but taking it in isolation is insane. So is not getting the concept that one’s shooting percentage is directly related to shot selection, being phyisically able to get a shot off, and being able to shoot while getting bumped. Many, many good shooters can’t even make D1 because of these factors, let alone the NBA.
Dipper’s altime allstar team appeared here in Seattle 4 years back. Brent Barry starting at PG, Ray Allen at SG, Rashard Lewis at SF, and Vladimir Radmanovic at PF. They were amazing shooters, all four having very good 3 point%. One opponent team scout was interviewed and he said teams are afraid of that lineup because they simply cannot cover all four guys out to 3 point land. But alas, when asked whether the Sonics would win very much he said naw, they couldn’t stop his grandma from going right down the middle.
KD will improve. His low percentage is due to taking bad shots, not from missing too many good shots. One example was against Atlanta where he drove baseline, got physically moved behind the backboard, and simply shot anyway. It carromed off the side of the board with no chance to go in. Some coaching and experience will fix that, and KD is a hard worker and learner. He will be fine.
November 20th, 2007 at 3:29 pm
I find it amusing that he is quoting John Cheney as his source when I think its pretty obvious based on his teams at Temple that he valued defensive intensity beyond everything else…
November 20th, 2007 at 3:31 pm
http://www.82games.com/0708/0708SEA.HTM
Of the guys with 40% of the minutes at one position…
Wilcox (63%) oncourt/off court net is +13.6
Wilkins (69%) oncourt/off court net is -1.6
West (51%) oncourt/off court net is +6.0
Collison (57%) oncourt/off court net is -2.1
Durant (70%) oncourt/off court net is -26.2
Green (44%) oncourt/off court net is -12.8
This is NOT plus/minus. However, this stat shows the impact from a player being on the court and not being on the court. This tells me that the Sonics would perform BETTER with Durant not playing. I have no doubt about it at this point in time that this is true from watching the games and looking at various stat. measures.
Durant’s per 48 oncourt is -15.9 (at 70% minutes) and his per 48 offcourt is +10.3 (at 30% minutes). Nobody else on the team is even close to having this negative of impact. The next guy would be Jeff Green. It is funny because both of these guys are rookies. I tend to think that with Durant and Green playing that the opposing team goes on some huge runs. PJ doesn’t take out the rookies when they are playing bad unlike a guy like Dwest who gets pulled for a bad 2 minute stretch.
Its also interesting to note:
Defense per 48 minutes
West (40%) - 100.2
Wilcox (63%) - 102.9
Wally (36%) - 103.4
Collison (57%) - 106.6
Watson (51%) - 108.0
Wilkins (68%) - 108.0
Green (43%) - 108.6
Durant (69%) - 112.4
West-Durant-Wilkins-Wilcox-Collison has only played 17 minutes together (45-38) (eFG 53%)
Watson-Durant-Wilkins-Wilcox-Thomas has only played 9 minutes together (26-18) (eFG 66%)
The Watson Durant Wilkins Wilcox Collison unit has played 100 minutes together and is -35 (eFG 48%)
The Watson Durant Wilkins Green Collison unit has played 12 minutes together and is -11 (eFG 42%)
I tried to find a rhyme or reason using the 5man units but there is none really. All I know is that the Ridnour Durant Wilkins Wilcox Swift combination is useless haha.
The Sonics are getting 11.4 assists out of their PG spot which is pretty darn good.
The center eFG% is 42% which is atrocious for centers.
Earl Watson has only generated 15 turnovers on defense while allowing his opponent to have a eFG% 51%. Earl has played all his minutes at PG.
Delonte has generated 16 turnovers on defense while holding his opponent to eFG% of 46%. Delonte has played roughly 75% of his minutes as a PG and only 25% at SG.
Earl per 48 minutes at the point averages 12 FG attempts, eFG% 36%, close range shots FG% 30%, 4 rebounds, 12 assists, 4 turnovers, 10.5 points.
Delonte per 48 minutes at the point guard position averages 15 FG attempts, 10 assists, 6 turnovers, 7 boards, 16 points. 1 block, eFG% 49%. At the SG, he averages, 23 FG attempts, 15 points, 7.5 rebounds, 2 assists, 0 blocks and 4 turnovers with a eFG% 27%.
‘Clutch Play’ 4th quarter/ot 5 minutes left, neither team more than 5 points ahead:
Earl = only 2 turnovers (1 offensive foul, 1 bad pass). He has taken up 71% of the minutes of spot on the floor during clutch play. -16 plus/minus
Delonte = only plays 17% of the minutes at one spot on the floor and has made 2 bad passes in those limited minutes. +6 plus/minus
November 20th, 2007 at 3:31 pm
This argument ranks right up there with the guy who came and said that Ridnour is a plus defender. Even I can’t defend that stance…
November 20th, 2007 at 3:48 pm
This tells me that the Sonics would perform BETTER with Durant not playing. I have no doubt about it at this point in time that this is true from watching the games and looking at various stat. measures.
- This tells me how easy it can be to take “stats”…and make them appear to be “facts”…to help support your “opinion”
November 20th, 2007 at 3:58 pm
Someone really said that Ridnour is a plus defender? What game is he/she watching? Ridnour couldn’t defend my grandmother on the perimeter, let alone an NBA player. I love the guy’s playmaking abilities in the transition offense, but he’s nowhere close to an adequate NBA defender.
The one thing I will say about Ridnour’s defense that is a positive is that he does seem to play the passing lanes well, which leads to a decent amount of steals per 48 minutes. That doesn’t matter much if he can’t keep his man in front of him though.
If only he had a bit more muscle and aggression.
S’ok though, hopefully Rose is on the way to solve the 3 headed monster that is PG.
November 20th, 2007 at 4:02 pm
Myk,
yeah I was taking into account a few stats but how is watching the games a stat?
To me, the opposing teams make their big runs when Durant is in the game. PJ does not take him out when he is not playing well which causes these huge negative runs. If he would just sub out Durant before the small negative run becomes a large one, then the Sonics would win more games. Durant is playing too many minutes right now. His body is not NBA ready and he takes plays off alot of times and shoots long jumpers to bail out his lack of physicality and endurance.
I’m not saying he should NOT play but if the Sonics would like to win more or be in games more often, then don’t play him as much. However, why would they do that? They want Durant to take all this pounding right now to reap the rewards for later.
November 20th, 2007 at 4:13 pm
Ok. Here’s a question for all you Jason Kidd fans, of which I am not one.
Let’s take a full year, instead of just the first couple weeks of this year. Who was better last year, Jason Kidd, or Tony Parker? And why?
Here are some of their numbers from last year’s full season:
REBOUNDS PER GAME: Kidd 8.2; Parker 3.3
ASSISTS PER GAME: Kidd 9.2; Parker 5.5
T.O. PER GAME: Kidd 2.7; Parker 2.5
ASSIST/T.O.: Kidd 3.4/1; Parker 2.2/1
STEALS PER GAME: Kidd 1.6; Parker 1.1
FG%: Kidd .406; Parker .520
3-PT%: Kidd .344; Parker .395
FT%: Kidd .778; Parker .783
Kidd had more than twice as many rebounds; 2/3 again as many assists, and about the same turnovers, for a much better assist/turnover ratio; half again as many steals, as Parker.
Parker shot far better than Kidd.
Who had the better season? In my opinion it was Parker, hands down, just because of his better shooting. You guys really think Kidd was better?
November 20th, 2007 at 4:17 pm
Of course shooting percentages depend in part on shot selection. Therefore shooting percentages tell you how smart a player is, also. If someone is taking a lot of bad shots, it will be reflected in his shooting percentage. You want players who take a lot of bad shots? If so, why?
Another thing about Durant is that a lot of the shots that he has actually made have been dunks or layups. His percentage on shots that are not layups or dunks is really bad, as his 3-pt% suggests.
November 20th, 2007 at 4:18 pm
Myk your really making me chuckle, You again my man don’t have a clue.. Who is a good candidate to coach the Sonics, and what would you look for, come on I want to laugh. You think the Sonics are running a free lance type offense, I hope your kidding us, it’s ok I know you have never coached. The Sonics run a Flex, do you know what that is Mr wonderful, all teams do it knucklehead. It’s a set 1-4 to spread the offense out to create proper spacing for screening. Am I trying to be a hero here, not at all, just pointing out something that Mr. Myk the hero is a clown. However Mr. Myk I do agree with you about PJ, being replaced, but with who hero..
November 20th, 2007 at 4:19 pm
Who had the better season? In my opinion it was Parker, hands down, just because of his better shooting. You guys really think Kidd was better?
- LOL..OK…another guy using stats to some how represent his opinion as fact. You list all these numbers and then at the bottom you just say “well Parker was better cause I say so”
LOL
LOL
November 20th, 2007 at 4:28 pm
“He’s much worse than Rajon Rondo….
Boston 8-1
New Jersey 4-7 ”
I pretty much fell outta my chair after reading this idiotic comment. Dipper, I hope you realize Kidd has only one primary scoring option on his team while Rondo has 3 all-stars in their prime or a year or two removed from it.
November 20th, 2007 at 4:28 pm
Myk your really making me chuckle, You again my man don’t have a clue.. Who is a good candidate to coach the Sonics, and what would you look for, come on I want to laugh. You think the Sonics are running a free lance type offense, I hope your kidding us, it’s ok I know you have never coached. The Sonics run a Flex, do you know what that is Mr wonderful, all teams do it knucklehead. It’s a set 1-4 to spread the offense out to create proper spacing for screening. Am I trying to be a hero here, not at all, just pointing out something that Mr. Myk the hero is a clown. However Mr. Myk I do agree with you about PJ, being replaced, but with who hero..
*Sigh*…
First here is a quote from Carlesimo about the offesnse:
Interesting article in the TNT today about PJ’s surprisingly undisciplined approach to the offense so far:
“At some point soon we have to start saying to guys, ‘All right, I don’t want you doing that. I don’t want you doing this.’ ” Carlesimo said. “But I think right now they have the opportunity to define their roles, to show that they can score, or they can shoot jump shots or they can do this or that.”
*-*-*-*
“(Carlesimo) hasn’t put any restraints on anyone offensively,” Wilkins said. “He’s let guys figure out what they can do offensively, and at the same time he’s evaluating to see what guys can do. So as the season goes on, he’ll put you in positions that you’re comfortable with, and that gives you the utmost confidence when you go out there and play that way.”
So yes…while they MAY be starting from a base 1-4 Flex Offense I do not believe they cannot be considered a free lance offense.
Second regarding the coaching options:
- My two desires during the coaching search were: Mike Ivaroni (Memphis’ new coach) and/or Rick Carlisle (Decided not to coach). Each of these guys were two people who have DISTINCT ideas about how the game should be played and would have forced their team to follow their desires. I can guarantee you that if either of them were coaches there wouldn’t have been articles like the one quoted above. The philosophy would already be in tact.
Does that help Beantown?? Just let me know if it doesn’t…
November 20th, 2007 at 4:37 pm
PJ and the kids will get the Sonics right where they need to be — lottery baby. I think it’s sad though about Gelabale. He should be getting some playing time. But we wouldn’t want to take away from the Ping Pong balls though. Hope the fans can forgive this team for wanting to leave and wanting to suck.
November 20th, 2007 at 4:38 pm
“Basically the public has voted with their feet by not attending the Sonics games,” Nellams said, adding it wouldn’t be prudent to subsidize the privately owned business, which occupies 5 acres of prime property at the 74-acre center.
November 20th, 2007 at 4:38 pm
According to Dipper’s theory:
- Linas Kleiza is a superior player to Dirk Nowitzki. Kleiza shoots a better percentage so therefore, he’s a better basketball player right? LOLOLOL
- Peja Stojakavic is a superior player compared to Chris Paul. After all, Paul is a career 43% shooter while Peja is the superior jumpshooter.
- J.J Reddick is better than Lebron James because he’s a better jumpshooter right?
November 20th, 2007 at 4:39 pm
Tony Parker is an amazing player. Parker was not too much older than Durant when he embarrassed Gary Payton in the 2001 playoff series between the Spurs and the Sonics. He does not get as much credit as other point guards because he cannot create offense for his teammates in the same way that Jason Kidd can create for his teammates. However, Parker can create offense for himself extremely efficiently, a valuable skill that nearly all point guards in the NBA, especially Jason Kidd, lack.
November 20th, 2007 at 4:48 pm
You see what coaches say they are going to do, and what they actually do is two toatally different things. You may set up a play and the team may switch something up where it forces you to react, something the Sonics are not doing right now. In this league you have to be able to create space on your own. Then you need to create space on the floor. I used to watch Bobby Knight tapes on the Motion offense where back screens were created off of spacing. If the Sonics right now had a legit big man, they would be able to open up so much space as I have said before playing the inside out game.. Coaching, Rick Cralisle all the way, great teacher, and a positive attitude he can also deal with the player of today, more so than PJ.. Plus he is my boy, you should see him jam on the piano, almost as good as he can coach..
November 20th, 2007 at 5:03 pm
Yup, gotta draft those players that were known as top notch college shooters. Trajon Langdon and JJ Redick are shining examples. Our own Vlad Radmanovic being another stellar example of how valuable a shooter is. And did I just read where long range bomber Brian Cook just got traded along with Mo Evans to the Magic for heralded Trevor Aritza?
Of course it’s silly to discount shooting ability. And it’s just as silly to discount what Kevin Durant can do because his percentages are low. Andre Bargnani had an okay rookie year but wasn’t dominant. This season he’s gained confidence and even though he’s gone through a dry spell he still can knock down three pointers with ease and do it by simply shooting over perimiter defenders.
As A Vancouver Grizzlies fan I watched the Raptors closely since they were our biggest rivals, with Canadian bragging rights on the line( we always lost). I followed Tracy MacGrady his rookie season and I can honestly tell you that he was no different one bit than Kevin Durant. While he made the odd great play, many a Raptors fan were at one point or another calling him a bad pick and thought perhaps he wasn’t going to amount to much.
There wasn’t even alot of uproar when he left Toronto for the Magic, he was still learning the game and didn’t yet hit his stride.
With Kevin Durant you have to look beyond his shooting percentages and see the other good attributes he has. Yes it frustrates me that he misses alot. But with his height at shooting guard at least he has good looks for a shot and doesn’t attempt to make those off balance circus shots with a hand in his grill from an impossible angle.
November 20th, 2007 at 5:13 pm
the NBA has some serious attendance issues in some markets. in Memphis the Seattle game had 10,000 or so, charlotte at home last night the same deal just over 10,000, and in new orleans last night against orlando they drew just over 11,000…
i think david stern needs to get his head checked because Seattle attendance is better than those markets and Seattle has true NBA Fans.
November 20th, 2007 at 5:19 pm
And who do you think had the better season, Myk, you little genius? Kidd or Parker? I gave you some numbers just to help you out a little. You can use whatever stats you like, or no stats at all. Just tell us who you think had the better year. And I did not say Parker was better because I say so…….I said he was better because he shot a lot better than Kidd.
Is there nobody who wants to say Kidd was better than Parker last year based on his rebounding, assists, steals, etc.?
November 20th, 2007 at 5:27 pm
Dipper,
Your argument is essentially the same as saying that an NFL quarterback should only be judged by his completion percentage.
There are single numbers which help you to understand a player’s total contribution to a team, such as adjusted +/-, but you will always have a better understanding if you look at a prism of the reliable statistics and personal observation.
And FWIW, “Player A is better than Player B” is usually a futile exercise. It’s better to look at players in groupings than trying to rank them. If you ask me who was better, Kevin Garnett or Tim Duncan, I don’t really care. They are both very good basketball players.
Now, if you ask me who was better, Duncan or Drew Gooden, I’ll give you an answer for that one any time.
November 20th, 2007 at 5:30 pm
Weighing in after recovering from the Australian time difference…
AK1984 said: “Yes, folks, Durant is really that pitiful of a defender.
Where, by the way, are James B. and Menace — who both disagreed with my assertion that Durant would be a god-awful defensive player at the NBA level due to his subpar athleticism and scrawny frame — to defend their ludicrous stance at this point in time?”
Gah! Can’t recover from the stupid!
Who in heck ever became a top NBA defender in twelve games?!! Find me the person!
Ludicrous stance, indeed. Durant was never going to be a top-notch defender in the first half of this season. None of the rookies were. Get back to me in February, and we’ll see where we’re at.
Big Dipper said: “Jason Kidd is playing absolutely terrible basketball so far this year. You disagree? There is no way you can make up for shooting 34%. That is just pathetic. If you don’t think that is one reason why the Nets are 4-7, then I can’t help you.”
Yes, well done. Jason Kidd is indeed ranked 37th among point guards so far this season in terms of FG%.
If that’s such a factor, why in heck do we not have a better record than New Jersey, given that the only point guard we have shooting worse than Kidd is Ridnour, and he’s only managed 91mins total game time so far this season?
November 20th, 2007 at 5:32 pm
Dipper I’ll say he was better. Not by much though–they are both top notch. Duncan would not mind having Kidd as his PG. And Jersey would not suddenly become a better team with Parker than Kidd. A point guard that makes his team better is golden and both those guys do that.
According to your theory, simply assembling 5 of the best shooting percentage guys would win a title.
November 20th, 2007 at 5:33 pm
And a couple of entertaining links via TrueHoop:
Vote for Kevin Durant’s new nickname. The current leader in the poll is “Daggers”.
And, because we need such a thing this season, a Sonics Drinking Game. Very amusing!
November 20th, 2007 at 5:34 pm
Where did you get that comment Vinny? This is what the Seattle Times article said :
“Basically the public has voted with their feet by not attending the Fun Forest,” Nellams said, adding it wouldn’t be prudent to subsidize the privately owned business, which occupies 5 acres of prime property at the 74-acre center.
The Sonics with possibly one foot out the the door have better attendance than seven other NBA teams. Two of them are Sacramento and New Orleans which Stern is trying desperately to save.
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/attendance
November 20th, 2007 at 5:34 pm
“End of quote. Now my quote: The three most important things in basketball are: shooting; shooting; and shooting. You guys who want to talk about dribbling, steals, ball-handling, etc. are just playing with yourselves. ”
Dipper was probably one of those guys cheering when the Sonics drafted Radmanovic.
“Can he defend his position? Well, no, but … he can shoot …sort of … if nobody’s guarding him.”
November 20th, 2007 at 5:42 pm
Rifle Rod Derline should have been in the 50 greatest players list for his shooting ability.
November 20th, 2007 at 5:43 pm
TukwilaSonic, yes! Haha!
Going by last season’s FG% leaders, and the positions they play (because the current leaders are simply too small a sample size), Big Dipper’s starting five is:
C - Dwight Howard
PF - Mikki Moore
SF - Luol Deng
SG - Grant Hill
PG - Steve Nash
The bottom three make this team look like the Phoenix Suns all over again, and I somehow don’t see Mikki Moore running the fast break with them.
November 20th, 2007 at 5:45 pm
Courtsense your reality check is appropriate on the rookie FT% and probably some of the others. I didnt know where would be good to “qualify” players on minutes so I took everybody and stated so. Only a couple of guys ahead of him have played much and all only a modest number of free throws. You could indeed say Durant also leads this category among rookies playing significant minutes.
The general pattern though so far in limited minutes is Durant is high on per game figures
among rookies (that some may use to say he is the best rookie) but I think it is of some value to note he is quite low on eFG% and rebounds per 48 among just rookies and just outside 10th on a lot of other per minute stuff. It is all rookies but it is also true that is somewhat apples to oranges in that Durant is playing big minutes and a lot of others havent faced that level of time and the challenge of playing heavily against starters.
Most of the time you use a stat that are qualifiers and often stats on the other hand. This board handles it well, knowing the limitations and the other parts of the story in the stats and on the court. In the end there is enough information out there for folks to sort thru and add what makes sense to them to their own prior view.
November 20th, 2007 at 5:46 pm
“Let’s take a full year, instead of just the first couple weeks of this year. Who was better last year, Jason Kidd, or Tony Parker? And why?
Here are some of their numbers from last year’s full season:
REBOUNDS PER GAME: Kidd 8.2; Parker 3.3
ASSISTS PER GAME: Kidd 9.2; Parker 5.5
T.O. PER GAME: Kidd 2.7; Parker 2.5
ASSIST/T.O.: Kidd 3.4/1; Parker 2.2/1
STEALS PER GAME: Kidd 1.6; Parker 1.1
FG%: Kidd .406; Parker .520
3-PT%: Kidd .344; Parker .395
Is there nobody who wants to say Kidd was better than Parker last year based on his rebounding, assists, steals, etc.?” {The Big Dipper}
Last season, Jason Kidd (Player Efficiency Rating: 21.3; Net +/- Production: +8.3; Net Points Per 100 Possessions: +7.6) and Tony Parker (Player Efficiency Rating: 23.4; Net +/- Production: +4.0; Net Points Per 100 Possessions: +3.2) were both productive in their own ways.
Irrespective of age and contractual status, Kidd would be my choice here due to his multifaceted skill set and superiority over Parker as a ball-handler and playmaker—which are essential traits at the point guard position.
Sans Chris Paul and Steve Nash, there’s isn’t any other point guard in the NBA — including the vastly overrated Deron Williams, who’s basically a product of Jerry Sloan’s system — who I’d rather have on the Seattle Supersonics over Jason Kidd.
November 20th, 2007 at 5:51 pm
Martin your list shows the difference between just having high FG%, like Mikki, vs. a great all around player like Nash. Nash is an efficient shooter which combined with his great passing ablility makes him the best PG of modern times.
Also it shows the value of having a Dwight Howard, who can currently has more dunks than 23 other teams. Oh and he can rebound too!
November 20th, 2007 at 5:52 pm
“According to your theory, simply assembling 5 of the best shooting percentage guys would win a title.”
That is pretty much what the Lakers, Celtics and 76er’s championship teams in the 80’s did. And they were the really great teams. Those teams shot over 50% from the field as teams! How? By assembling a cast of players who were great shooters (with a few exceptions). Teams today could not compete with those great shooting teams.
I have been watching the NBA since the 60’s, when The Big Dipper went up against Bill Russel 8 or 10 games every season. Now, that was something to see. The more years and the more games I watched, the more obvious it became to me — basketball is a lot simpler than coaches, writers and broadcasters want to make it. In most games it really boils down to a shooting contest. Whoever shoots best wins. Shooting is the most basic fundamental skill in the game.
You can talk about all the other facets of the game you want to, but I know this: 4 out of every 5 games the team which has the higher fg% wins (excluding games in which both teams shoot the same %, which does not happen often). No matter what else happens in the game. No matter which team gets the most rebounds, which team has the fewer turnovers, which team makes the most free throws, etc. The team which shoots best wins 80% of the time.
You think Kidd had the better year, fine with me. I would take Parker over Kidd in a heartbeat.
November 20th, 2007 at 5:53 pm
Crow you had per minute stats above that do show alot of holes in KD’s game, thanks for sharing those. He will be a far better player this time next year.
November 20th, 2007 at 5:53 pm
I love going to hoopshype.com for D-league coverage.
It’s interesting to see who’s panned out and AT LEAST made it to the D-league, former NBA players who’ve been canceled, etc.
The Keith Closs’s and Ramon Sessions of the world….it’s interesting to see who’s still hanging around (Closs) and who’s been demoted aka given “a chance to play (Session).”
November 20th, 2007 at 5:58 pm
So you see no correlation between a Jason Kidd’s ability to drive and set up a team mate for a high percentage dunk with winning, but just his lack of ability to shoot from outside?
Parker plays for the best team in the league. Do you recall the championship point guard the Sonics traded for who never produced anything in Seattle? Might just have been the team he played with in Boston that really made him look so good…
November 20th, 2007 at 5:59 pm
When judging players, you have to have some qualifiers, obviously. You don’t compare someone who is playing only 12 minutes per game to someone who plays 36 minutes per game.
I would take a look at the players who are averaging at least 32 minutes per game and see who has the best shooting % among them. And I do like effective fg% and true fg% better than just plain fg%, but those stats are not given in box scores, and I am not concerned enough about it to compute those figures for every game, or any game, for that matter.
I’d like to see the list of players averaging over 32 minutes per game by position ranked by their effective or true fg%. That would be interesting to me. Is there a site that has that somewhere?
November 20th, 2007 at 6:00 pm
Kidd and Parker have been both very good over their careers and for the teams. They are the engines for the systems in different ways.
Kidd doesnt shoot well but usually that is forgiven by how outstanding he is in other areas of game and how well he runs the team offense. Last season Nets with Kidd on court shot 51% eFG which was would one of highest in league.This season it isn’t working and Nets are only shooting 43% eFG with Kidd on court. Part of it is Carter’s absence. Kidd really can only give the ball to a couple of guys and get results. Everyone else on that squad is shooting poorly, many as bad or worse than Kidd.
Parker shoots adequately enough from outside and has mainly been valuable as a scorer or a draw & dish to Duncan or back outside operator. His shooting and scoring is off a bit from last season. Spurs run by Parker but probably more to say that the system fits and makes him look good, whereas Jason Kidd is the system in New Jersey.
November 20th, 2007 at 6:04 pm
Big Dipper this site allows you to specify criteria for a player search.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/fc/stats_search.cgi
Right now it has last season and all the past. Later this season it will add the current season and keep it updated for the first time.
Some sites have qualifying standards but I find they often drop too many players for my tastes.
November 20th, 2007 at 6:06 pm
One of the reasons the Spurs is the best team in the league is because of Parker. That is not just a coincidence. Without Parker, the Spurs would not be the best team in the league. That’s like saying Tim Duncan just happens to play on the best team in the league, as if he has nothing to do with them being the best team.
Look at Vince Carter’s year-by-year numbers and show me how you think playing with Kidd made him any better than he was with Toronto.
Don’t even get me started on that “he makes everyone on his team better” crap. I don’t want to stay up all night arguing with everyone on this site.
November 20th, 2007 at 6:08 pm
Or you can jiggle with this site
http://www.knickerblogger.net/stats/2008/jh_ALL_PER.htm
It is essentially the top half of guys in league by minutes played starting around 15 minutes a game.
You could click on minutes played column header and easily see the guys over 32 minutes and then eyeball the eFG% and TS%s. Or click on eFG% or TS% to see a sort by that criteria and then ignore / mentally weed out the small minute guys.
November 20th, 2007 at 6:15 pm
I am not going to argue about Kidd but the before Carter went to NJ he was at career low on TS% and that first year in NJ it bounced up to career best. And last year he topped slightly. Kidd to me does deserve credit for creating a favorable environment. Carter deserves a lot of the credit for his own work but it probably helped. It certainly helped Mikki Moore.
November 20th, 2007 at 6:19 pm
You are welcome TukwilaSonic. I agree Durant will get better by next season. Probably will see a lot of things improve in next few months.
November 20th, 2007 at 6:20 pm
Of course Parker is a great player and he is one reason they are good. And as I’ve said above, FG% is very important. It just doesn’t give the whole picture. Yes, some players (such as Parker) make those around them better. It is a team game. Guys who shoot a good percentage don’t do it in a vacuum they do it in a team system.
The Sonics teamwork 2 years ago when they won 52 games was far better than it was after that. They ran the high pick and roll very well and got good shots for players. Many of those players bought into doing all the little things to win because it was their contract year. Playing D, setting picks, making the extra pass… it all added up to winning even thought the talent level was no better. But I guess they should have just all worked on their shooting and ignored all the meaningless stuff…
November 20th, 2007 at 6:30 pm
I’ve never really liked AK’s posts even before the whole falling out this summer… that was drama, baby! I still blush when I think of the posts he left over there at supersonicsoul.com. Ha! His lengthy trade proposals and ability to cut and paste his own quotes are legendary.
But I totally agree with his take on Durant being a chucking, high-volume shooter who is bogging down our offense.
Solutions?
Picks. Give him more picks to run off of ala Ray Allen. In-control J’s with breathing room could help.
More picks. Get him the ball closer to the charity stripe/elbow to give him a (1) closer shot and the (2) option to lay it up thus utilizing his “long-ness”. It also gives him a nice opportunity to (3) cast his fall-away jumper. That will be his nastiest move ala Jordan within 3 years.
Get in the weight room!!!!! I’m talking more about his legs than his upper body. For a 6′10″ dude he is still a jump shooter not a Dirk Nowitzki. I think this run of every other day games is making him tired and messing with his shot.
I think after a few days rest he’lll have a better shooting percentage on Friday against New Jersey.
As far as the defensive pairings that AK talked about - he’s right. He needs help and should be paired with a better man on man defender until he gets some more muscle on that frame. His defense will suck this year. But hopefully in 2-3 years he’ll be… average. I do think his ability to play the passing lanes is underrated and helps mitigate his man on man deficiency.
November 20th, 2007 at 6:32 pm
“And did I just read where long range bomber Brian Cook just got traded along with Mo Evans to the Magic for heralded Trevor Ariza?”
Looks like a Laker salary dump (Ariza can opt out this summer).
I thought Cook had some potential but he is probably frustrating like Petro or worse. But in a new environment, wait n see.
November 20th, 2007 at 6:45 pm
this team doesn’t have trouble scoring its the defense that need improvement..you can tell that this young team doesn’t want to play defense..how many times are they gonna let the guards drive to the basket with no help from the bigs.kick out and shoot the 3! its unreal!..I think they should start sene..his 7+ tall with a long wing span..his a presents is needed in the paint. if he can get a couple blocks or just alter a couple of shot, guards will think twice about driving in the paint.
November 20th, 2007 at 6:54 pm
You guys need to be more patient. Durant is not going inside and do the post up because his body is not strong enough to do that right now.
Lewis has great shooting touch, but Durant’s stroke is looking good too, and he has that sick ability of dribbling which Lewis lacks. Once he gets strong and starts to mix inside-outside game, he will be unstoppable.
Bad shooting percentage is easily due to lack of other scoring threats in this team. Remember when Shawn Kemp was in Seattle he was shooting 56%, but when he got to the cavs, his percentage reduced 40 something. That is what happens when you are the focal point of opponent’s defense.
Give him more time.
November 20th, 2007 at 7:21 pm
This wasn’t a Parker/Kidd comparison earlier, this was a Rondo/Kidd duel we were talking about. You still have *not* justified that answer. Have you seen either of them play? For at least a few minutes? Games? That should be no contest.
Now, as for Kidd vs Parker. Two very different PGs, yet they are both great. You say because of Parker, the Spurs won their rings. I disagree. Without Tim Duncan, that team wouldn’t have won a single championship of this era. Parker is a hybrid score-first point guard. It’s his ability to drive and dish that sets up his teammates. He is not known as a great facilitator, but he is known as someone who can use his speed to get to the basket.
Both of them are products of their respective team’s systems. Though it seems Kidd’s teams have tried to build around him. The Spurs built around Duncan.
A better comparison to Kidd would be Steve Nash, mainly in the fact that those two are able to impose their will on a game. I’d take Nash over Kidd as it is in 2007-2008, no doubt. Nash is a + shooter, with speed, court-awareness, and great vision.
This brings up an interesting thought though. After looking at Kidd’s stats and watching him play in games, I wonder what he could do with an offense like the suns, let alone the Celtics.
I miss Kidd triple-doubles, along with Kidd-to-Martin alley-oops. But I miss a lot of things, like going to Shawn Kemp’s BBQ parties.
November 20th, 2007 at 7:28 pm
Martin, that drinking game link was hilarious. I’ll definitely be upping the intake this season in my efforts to endure this horror show. This line made me ROTFL:
Robert Swift looks like a victim stuck in a bully’s body.
November 20th, 2007 at 8:24 pm
Did people know that Greg Oden had hip surgery in the 6th grade? I was just reading an article in the Oregonian that said his right leg is probably shorter, due to having a pin put in his right hip during surgery. It mentioned that that’s why he walks with a slight limp.
As for Kevin Duran’ts play so far I have been impressed. He’s shooting a poor percentage, but at the same time he gets to the line. People need to remember that he’s a 19 year old rookie who is being expected to be the leading scorer on this team. That’s a ton of pressure for someone so young. Right now he’s struggling with being the focal point of opposing defenses and he’s somewhat hit a wall. Also, this was his first long road trip in the NBA and it takes time to get used to the physical toll it takes on your body.
November 20th, 2007 at 8:48 pm
Steve the 3 most important things in hoops is shooting, are you serious. #1-Attitude, alot of players come from different walks of life and need to adjust right away before they even shoot one shot in the NBA.. #2Work ethic(McWalter knows) my dad used to tell me you will get out of it what you put into it, he was right. #3-Conditioning if you are not in top physical condition in this league it will not work out. I watch Robert Swift and can’t believe his conditioning, but in this league conditioning is a must.. So Steve I was a shooter, thumb and pinky on the same seem, let your guide hand cross t with your shooting hand, elbow straight, then release, if you have good rotation the ball will come back to you.. Point being without the first 3 things you won’t get one shot in the NBA..
November 20th, 2007 at 8:53 pm
“Look at Vince Carter’s year-by-year numbers and show me how you think playing with Kidd made him any better than he was with Toronto.”
Maybe not Vince………but Mikki Moore and Kenyon Martin owe Kidd a new car. J-Kidd makes players better.
November 20th, 2007 at 8:59 pm
“That is pretty much what the Lakers, Celtics and 76er’s championship teams in the 80’s did. And they were the really great teams. Those teams shot over 50% from the field as teams! How? By assembling a cast of players who were great shooters (with a few exceptions). Teams today could not compete with those great shooting teams.”
This isn’t the 80’s. The game has evolved.
November 20th, 2007 at 9:05 pm
Where’s Dipper at? He must be outside shooting set shots off one leg with two hands.
November 20th, 2007 at 9:16 pm
Or studying J.J Redick’s shooting on youtube.
November 20th, 2007 at 9:30 pm
…………..while wearing Stockton length shorts.
November 20th, 2007 at 9:31 pm
KD will be fine IMO - Patience to all who are panicking and saying he is a bust or terrible defender etc.
Hey - his FG% is & will be poor this year - but this will improve. He needs experience & better players around him & a coach who has a clue.
Does PJ have a clue? I’m not sure - the jury is still out on him.
But this team is bad. I predicted 28-32 wins before the season started. I’m thinking about 20 now. The Sonics have NO interior defense. No Center. The PG play is probably the worst in the NBA except for maybe T-Wolves & Hawks. Just brutal. Watson is flat our terrible.
November 20th, 2007 at 9:32 pm
Who is or was the best shooter of all time, I saw Glen Rice make almost 25 3’s in a row one time..
November 20th, 2007 at 9:56 pm
Lets quickly recap Dippers contribution to this site. He comes in bashing Durant asking what he does better than Rashard Lewis.
People tell him. He then claims all the points don’t matter except for the the one thing that Durant is undisputably struggling with the most. His shooting percentage.
Do you see the pattern?
November 20th, 2007 at 10:00 pm
For someone who claims to be so old……he sure does have a childish way of discussing things.
November 20th, 2007 at 10:10 pm
“Who is or was the best shooter of all time, I saw Glen Rice make almost 25 3’s in a row one time..”
That I’ve seen consistently it’s Bird.
I saw Mateen Cleaves hit 19 in a row once…:)
November 20th, 2007 at 10:28 pm
Stats that would be more meaningful to me than any I have seen discussed would be the following:
What are the other rookies who have averaged 20 ppg in the NBA their first season and did they end up winning any scoring titles or championships? Somehow I think they all for the most part went pretty far.
Also, a couple of interesting things of note. Keven Durant is only like 5-10 pounds that Rashard Lewis, yet people complain how skinny HE is. Talk about a double-standard. He all ready has better ball handling skills and a better transition offense game than Lewis.
I don’t know about you guys (those who are over 19) but when I was 19, I was 130 lbs. I’m 28 now almost, and I’m around 160. Most people probably gain around 30 pounds for sure just with age and a little work, but most 19 year olds are not super big or bulky at such a young age. I can just tell by looking at him that this is goign to be a 240 pound player 3 years time as he naturally matures and continues to work out. I heard he is up to 225 right now just from hitting the weights hard.
I think he will turn out great. Probably pass Gary Payton in several statistical categories. I have a feeling a lot of people on this board were not watching the Sonics in the early 90s when Gary Payton averaged 13 point per game in his third season and shot 50% from the free throw line, and couldn’t make a three pointer. Kevin Durant is a 20 ppg rookie, and you guys are disappointed. How many of those have we had here? The guy has great length defensively, and it has all ready bothered some noticable players in games that I’ve watched. He’s going to be a terrific player, and no doubt will certainly average 25-30 ppg, and 7-8 rpg, 1-2 spg, and 1 bpg, while probably end up shooting around 45% from the field, 38% from 3, and 85% from the line. I can see him growing into that. What they put around that will help decided how good the team is.
Its a great start though. Oh, I’d also add 4-5 apg as well. This guy is gonna be good. It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to see that he just all ready has all the great skills needed, but just needs more experience and to mature a bit to turn out to be a great one in a year or two. The versatility of Jeff Green is great. If he is an 18 ppg and 8 rpg, 4 apg guy, 1-2 spg I would be very pleased to see those numbers from both these guys on a winning team, which I think would occur. Versatility wins. You look at all the great teams of the past, and that is what they had. Some key players that could play MULTIPLE postions at different points in the game.
November 20th, 2007 at 10:34 pm
“Who is or was the best shooter of all time, I saw Glen Rice make almost 25 3’s in a row one time..”
Not sure about all time, but the Sonics have been lucky. Fred Brown, Dale Ellis, and Ray Allen… we’ve had more than our share of great ones.
November 20th, 2007 at 10:49 pm
“Then NBA has evolved.” LOL You got that wrong. The NBA has DEvolved. The NBA is not nearly as good as it was 25 years ago. If you did not get to see those great Laker, Celtic and 76er championship teams, you have no idea what you are talking about. Those teams were basically all-star teams. Nowadays there are a lot fewer good players, and more teams, so the fewer good players are spread further apart.
Give me a team today that can compare to this: Jabbar, Magic, Byron Scott, James Worthy, A.C. Green. Or this: Moses Malone, Julius Erving, Andrew Toney, Maurice Cheeks and Bobby Jones. Or this: Robert Parish, Larry Bird, Kevin Mchale, Danny Ainge, and Dennis Johnson. None of the teams today can compare to those teams. If you missed out on the 80’s, it’s really too bad for you. The NBA today is not even close to what it was back then.
How can anyone say that Kidd made Kenyon Martin better? Based on what?
His last season with Kidd, Martin shot .488. His first season with Denver, Martin shot .490, which was better than any season with Kidd. Martin’s rebounds went down by about 2 per game, but what would that have to do with Kidd? Are you claiming that Kidd made Martin a better rebounder? How? All his other numbers were about the same in Denver as in N.J., although he actually reduced his T.O./game by 0.5. In what way was Martin better in N.J. than he was in Denver, before he started getting hurt all the time?
My contribution to this site is teaching you about basketball. If you are not smart enough to learn, that is not my fault.
November 20th, 2007 at 10:51 pm
jrn:
“Stats that would be more meaningful to me than any I have seen discussed would be the following:
What are the other rookies who have averaged 20 ppg in the NBA their first season and did they end up winning any scoring titles or championships? Somehow I think they all for the most part went pretty far.”
http://tinyurl.com/yqn9rf
List of 20 pts a game rookies since 1980. Looks like a bit more than half won a title. Some as a role player later in career.
November 20th, 2007 at 10:57 pm
The 80s great teams were different because it was pre-salary cap and the style of play was quite different. I don’t generally compare anything earlier than 1988 to today but did so in the previous post (in moderation) to capture a few more names.
November 20th, 2007 at 11:01 pm
Once Durant gains some weight/muscle he is going to be able to show his low-post game. Right now his primary scoring options are jump-shots, and attacking the basket. At this point he has a hard time finishing plays, because he can’t play through the physical contact. When he drives to the rim he often misses easy shots when his defender bumps him a little bit. As he gets stronger you will see him make those same shots he’s struggling with now.
2-3 years down the line I think Durant is going to be unstoppable offensively. He’s already show the ability to shoot the ball and he has great handles for a guy who is 6-10. He also has some nice low-post move, but he hasn’t been able to display that part of his game due to his lack of strength. Down the line I see Durant having the shooting ability of Nowitzki, the handles of McGrady, and the all around play of Chris Bosh. I really think he’s going to be that good.
November 20th, 2007 at 11:03 pm
I’m sorry, but your posts are laced with ignorance. You’re making statements that are incredibly inane. Did I say Kidd made Martin better, or are you just looking to argue? I wasn’t aware that saying that I missed Kidd to Martin alley-oops was a way of saying he made him better. I’ll make sure to pick better words next time. (Can you tell this is tongue in cheek? Or do I really need to spell this out?)
Until you actually prove that you can give us anything that isn’t mere childish prognostications, please take your “teachings” elsewhere.
NBA basketball HAS evolved. There is more parity. There are more stars. The league as a whole is adopting a more up-tempo offensive scheme. Wanna debate that? How about you look into it. The past is the past, leave it where it is. No one cares about the Showtime Lakers, or any other dynasty in the leagues history. They are not the Sonics, they are not this NBA game.
Seriously, I don’t really understand how you came up with that long winded retort, but it absolutely makes no sense. You sir have obviously not seen a game that Kidd has played. That or you’re just ignorant to how valuable a play-making point guard is. Either way, you fail terribly on your stance.
Where’d you get your NBA education? Devry?
November 20th, 2007 at 11:07 pm
Kidd doesnt appear to have affected Martin’s shooting. There are cases on both sides. Would have to do a comprehensive study to argue for or against an overall effect. I am comfortable with my own impression and will pass on further research that one in favor of other stuff.
November 20th, 2007 at 11:13 pm
“How can anyone say that Kidd made Kenyon Martin better? Based on what?”
How about scoring average. Observation. K-Mart had the best years of his career in NJ. I think Jason Kidd makes others better. If you don’t think he does then we can agree to disagree.
What about Mikki Moore? You remember him in Seattle don’t you? 9 pts 5 rips a game on Jersey last year shooting 60%. When he played here did you think he was capable of that? What is he doing this year without a PG? A big reason he shot 60% was the easy buckets that Kidd set him up with.
“Then NBA has evolved.” LOL You got that wrong. The NBA has DEvolved. The NBA is not nearly as good as it was 25 years ago.”
I said the “game” has evolved. Players are more dynamic now. They are bigger and stronger. There are 7 footers who can now play inside and out and multiple positions. Big men that can shoot the 3. Back in the day you were simply a big man who played the post. We now have point guards that can shoot the 3, play inside and out, and finish above the rim. Not the case back in the day.
Take nothing away from the players in the past. But the game has changed. But who is to say the more physically dominating, athletic, and arguably more skilled players wouldn’t have done better? Nobody can say for sure.
November 20th, 2007 at 11:15 pm
Dipper, I might have slighted Parker in respect for Kidd but I also respect Parker for his penetration which opens things open a good deal and not just anyone can do as well as he does and for pretty good D. How good he is in abstract is hard. Maybe his post Duncan years will add perspective.
November 20th, 2007 at 11:24 pm
Look at J-Kidds resume and your blasting him? Your a windbag. Are all the NBA beat writers, experts, coaches, Olympic committees wrong too? Your in the minority buddy.
Was 80s fashion better too? Bust out that neon son.
November 20th, 2007 at 11:25 pm
Hey Dipper…….ever take things to extremes?
November 20th, 2007 at 11:27 pm
DO NOT WORRY ABOUT DURANT, unless u’re expecting perfection from him…
November 20th, 2007 at 11:28 pm
Dipper - You don’t like Durant or Jason Kidd. We get it.
November 20th, 2007 at 11:30 pm
Team shooting (and shot defense) are the biggest parts of the game and often tell the tale in single games but over a season the other parts can add up to major effect.
Take two players and given that exactly equal stats. Say they both shoot 5-10 per game for 50% FG. Now change one player to 6-10 or 60% FG. How can you change the other player to on average affect the scoreboard as much? Reduce turnovers by 1 a game, increase steals by that amount, grab an extra offensive board and other ways where the value takes more work to define or is in dispute.
Of the teams that made the playoffs last season 12 were above average on team eFG%. It is very important. But 4 made it in with below average FG%, Combined they won 6 series and the Cavs got to the Finals.
November 20th, 2007 at 11:32 pm
Dipper do you shoot with one hand or two? Underhand?
November 20th, 2007 at 11:47 pm
Dipper have you ever agreed with anyone on this site? Thought they made a good point?
November 20th, 2007 at 11:48 pm
Mikki Moore barely played anywhere before he got to N.J. Pretty hard to talk about a guy whose highest min/game in his career was 16:48 before he got to N.J. and averaged 26:18 min/gm last season. You don’t think a big increase in playing time helps a player’s stats? Interestingly enough, in his second season,in 29 games with Detroit, Mikki Moore shot .621 from the field. You think that was because he played with Lindsay Hunter and Jerry Stackhouse at guard?
I said I was not going to stay up arguing all night, and I’m not going to. I’ll just say I don’t believe in the cliche that any player makes his team mates better players. All good players make their teams better, obviously. But they don’t make their teammates better players. That is just a foolish notion that a lot of people have bought into, including basically every writer and broadcaster who does the NBA, so naturally, most fans believe it, even though it is not true.
The NBA had some great 3-pt shooters back in the 80’s including Larry Bird at 6′9″ and Dale Ellis at 6′7″. Some of the best 3-point shooters of all time played back then, like Mark Price, John Stockton, Steve Kerr, Dale Ellis, Detlef Schrempf, Kiki Vandeweghe, etc.
I suspect many of you guys never saw the NBA in the 80’s. That was the golden age of the NBA. The players and the game were both much better back then. Why do you think TV ratings have been hitting all-time lows lately? Because the current game is so bad that it is almost unwatchable.
You think today’s players are bigger and better? Did you ever get to see Magic Johnson play? He was about 6′9″ and played point guard! Magic was what Jason Kidd would like to be, but isn’t. That is a perfect example of the Golden Age of the NBA in the 80’s compared to today: back then the NBA had Magic Johnson; now the NBA has Jason Kidd. lol That is not getting better, my fine, feathered friends.
Good night.
November 21st, 2007 at 12:01 am
I should correct myself. It isn’t as easy to match that shooting % change. It takes twice as much change as I incorrectly posted.
Should be…
How can you change the other player to on average affect the scoreboard as much?
Do a total of 2 of the following: reduce turnovers, increase steals or grab an extra offensive board (or some other ways where the value takes more work to define or is in dispute- defensive rebounding, reducing fouls given).
November 21st, 2007 at 12:09 am
“All good players make their teams better, obviously. But they don’t make their teammates better players. That is just a foolish notion that a lot of people have bought into, including basically every writer and broadcaster who does the NBA, so naturally, most fans believe it, even though it is not true.”
Classic. So Magic Johnson and his court vision/dynamic passing didn’t set up his teammates in successful situations? I think he did.
“You think today’s players are bigger and better?”
Bigger. Absolutely. On average the players today are physically bigger. Look at Shaq. Look at Dwight Howard. Look at Lebron. No matter what era there are going to be physical specimens. There tend to be more now.
Better……thats a matter of opinion. Players like Michael Adams and John Lucas could get away with being a PG in the 80s despite not being able to dribble with their off hand. Not the case now. Bad example for you though…..we know how you feel about ballhandling. The point is that the game is more dynamic now. More skills are now taken into account in player evaluation than just shooting. But what do coaches and scouts know right?
BTW I think its ok to like both Magic Johnson and Jason Kidd. It doesn’t have to be one or the other. I think they are both great and thats probably ok.
November 21st, 2007 at 12:09 am
Crow, I got a feeling David Locke would LOOOVE you(smiling)…
November 21st, 2007 at 12:33 am
epx it was a mix. Sometimes we traded posts and had a conversation we both liked and each learned from. Sometimes we disagreed and sometimes it was a bit more adversial. He’d make a point and I’d present my case why I thought he didnt have it quite right or was wrong to my understanding of the stats and the game itself. Sometimes I’d make a point and he’d disagree and I’d bolster my case.
But all in all I enjoyed that type of conversation and I think we ended on a good note.
November 21st, 2007 at 12:35 am
Hate to say it, but I started going to games in the 70’s. Early 80’s featured Gus Wiliams, but we knew we couldn’t beat the Lakers for many years there. 90’s was Sonic basketball again and some good times.
Dipper if you’ve ever played a team sport you know that it is far easier to play with good players than bad. Maybe it doesn’t “make you a better player”, but it does make your play better on that team.
November 21st, 2007 at 12:36 am
Locke rubbed people the wrong way but I liked his enthusiasm for the game.
November 21st, 2007 at 12:37 am
Dipper words matter in this and perhaps the way you say it means something to you different than it means to others.
I agree players don’t make other players more skilled. Most contributions are pretty direct. But I believe the best few can make teammates more productive or efficient by their presence and interaction.
Magic for sure. I’d say Kidd and other high quality defense shredders and distributors to a lesser extent. Shaq and the quality big men who force a double team and create easier looks for outside shooters. The great big man defenders and a few of the great PG ball hawks. Harder to make that case for perimeter shooters but maybe some.
There are some here who saw the 80s. A few even earlier.
November 21st, 2007 at 12:44 am
I hate interrupting in such a captivating debate between the Dipper and Menace with non-Sonic NBA talk, but here is a quote from Reggie Theus that captures why the Suns will not win the NBA championship.
“One thing about the Suns is you are never out of the game. They will allow you to get back in it.”
Theus’s statement is well supported by the Suns inability to hold two double digit leads against the Spurs in 2005 playoffs, three double digit leads against Dallas in 2006 playoffs, and the critical double digit lead it had on the Spurs in Game 5 of the 2007 playoffs. As the two-time MVP, Nash had to step up for his team to quell these rallies; his inability to do so may have cost them one or two championships. Sarver is probably pondering the same question that Barry Ackerley had for many years: “Where are my rings?”
November 21st, 2007 at 12:48 am
Well put Crow.
For the record I did see the 80s. Thats when I fell in love with the game. I rocked the Converse Weapons. I had the Bird and Magic versions.
November 21st, 2007 at 12:58 am
Phoenix’s defense has been their achilles but it has been changing:
2004-5 17th on defensive efficency.
2005-6 16th
2006-7 14th
Currently 8th
If Phoenix is part of the influence behind the Presti / PJ model they should take note of that movement and plan for making a similar move up on defensive efficiency. I am sure they want it. Hard to do it without giving back on offense as you’ve noted Alex. Right balance of players and real smart on teaching to nudge the numbers a little further in right direction- FG% allowed, fouls in particular. Suns 12th on FG% allowed and lowest in league in fouls. Easy to decide to go low on fouls but to keep FG% allowed below average shows some good detailed teaching. By Iavoroni or D’Antoni or both.
November 21st, 2007 at 12:59 am
Spurs got lucky last year. Lucky that Stoudamire was too dumb to stay on the bench and let the guys on the court deal with Big Shot Bob.
In 06, Suns got as far as you can with a 6′7″ starting center. Just when they needed Kurt Thomas… he was on the bench hurt.
This is their year.
November 21st, 2007 at 1:01 am
I forgot to give credit for the Theus quote. The quote can be found at the following url:
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/recap?gameId=271120023
I never saw the 80s. I loved the 90s and enjoy the post-Jordan era of basketball just as much despite the home team’s struggle this decade. I am going to go out on a limb and claim that Rajon Rondo is not the primary reason the Celtics are 8-1.
November 21st, 2007 at 1:03 am
So many teams want to copy the Spurs and especially the Suns. Too bad they don’t have any of those players… it won’t work. Warriors were a 2 month flash in the pan (a very hot pan while it lasted). Dallas can do up tempo. Most other teams are fooling themselves.
November 21st, 2007 at 1:04 am
Suns - Celtics in the finals.
November 21st, 2007 at 1:05 am
Interesting Crow!
In regards to the earlier days of the NBA, I agree that it was generally superior to the modern day NBA. Some of the players now though, could have definitely thrived even in those days imo, and I think Durant when it’s all said, and done will prove to be one of those players…
November 21st, 2007 at 1:11 am
Wally/Wilcox for Amare/Banks works as a trade this season in terms of salaries. If the Suns fail to win a championship this season, Sarver may force Steve Kerr to make more cost-cutting moves in the offseason. The expiring contracts of Wally and Wilcox could be quite enticing to Phoenix. Wally and Wilcox would be great fits for their team. They would probably want a little more in exchange for Amare, such as the Sonics first round draft pick in 2007 as Seattle’s pick may be higher than Atlanta’s pick. I’m not sure if this trade still works financially after this season but perhaps, someone can dream up a trade scenario involving these parties. Hopefully, Steve Logan could find himself in this deal somehow.
November 21st, 2007 at 2:01 am
Kobe got himself some help with the arrival of Ariza in LA.
Spurs should battle the Celtics or Magic in the Finals.
Jordan still seems like the perfect basketball player, but Lebron, Wade, Garnett and Durant may break the mold.
November 21st, 2007 at 2:09 am
Isiah Thomas was a bad boy too. He scored 25 points in a quarter while hobbling around the court. Jordan buried Isiah, Bird and his buddy Magic. GP and Kemp almost dismantled the Bulls, but Jordan, Rodman and Pippen were too explosive.
November 21st, 2007 at 2:20 am
Green is still using his body too much on defense, as he was instructed to do in college. NBA defenders can use a forearm and a hand to brace themselves against the offensive player. Green will undoubtedly adapt and improve as a defender, as he is tenacious.
Durant ’s body will mature and his basketball IQ should skyrocket. I’m not worried about his defensive intensity as Durant wants nothing more than to rip his opponents hearts out after a buzzer beater. Like Wilcox said, and so clearly demonstrates, defense is all about effort.
November 21st, 2007 at 3:07 am
I feel like my IQ has skyrocketed after reading this thread.
November 21st, 2007 at 6:02 am
I’d like to see Boston/Phoenix in the finals, but I think Denver/Boston will be an interesting reg season matchup. Garnett, Allen, Pierce, & co. vs. Iverson, Anthony, KMart, & co.. That should be fun to watch(although I have a feeling anytime Boston plays this year it could be fun to watch), & D Tate after reading this post your IQ should now be through the roof(smiling, & just kidding)…
November 21st, 2007 at 6:22 am
As for the Warriors(mentioned earlier), let’s not 4get they lost J-Rich, and Jackson was also out to start the season. They’re 3-6 now, but if they gain some momentum they can still have a decent season…
November 21st, 2007 at 8:01 am
With regard to rookies who averaged 20 ppg in the NBA their first season and whether they won championships, in a rough sort it appears that generally those with strong rookie FG%s did and those on the lower end of FG% generally didn’t or havent so far or did so as role players late in career.
November 21st, 2007 at 8:12 am
Phoenix defense showing better but it is only 3 weeks in. Defensive efficiency went from 108 last season to 102 right now. Small sample size though.
Will they sustain it and can they show in playoffs against good teams? Still reasons to be skeptical but at least they are showing some attention to it. Publically in past they seemed too smug about just outscoring people. Internally it may be taken more seriously.
November 21st, 2007 at 8:22 am
NY post article today cited some stats that Nets players shooting worse without Carter compared to with. I forgot to credit slashing wings as positive team performance agents. Lots of interactions.
One of Kidd’s impacts is team foul shots increase when he is on court. A check of FG% alone wouldnt find that.
November 21st, 2007 at 9:58 am
Last night the Kings lost by 2 points.
Miller & Artest each had one technical.
November 21st, 2007 at 10:43 am
JNR… Good thoughts & post on KD - I’m with you - He will be terrific - everyone who is panicking and over-analyzing needs to chill & give the kids some time & recongize….
This was his first ever long NBA road trip
He is shooting 80%+ from the FT line
He is getting 19 points per game
He is playing with a crappy ream & no PG
He is playing with a new coach with a team learning a new system
He is a 19 year old rookie with expectations out of sight.
He has played 10 games - 10!
He seems to have his head screwed on straight & that is huge - give him some time - this whole season will be filled with ups & downs - but give him 2+ years & look out. I think he will be a solid all-star player & hopefully/likely a superstar level guy.
November 21st, 2007 at 12:11 pm
“One of Kidd’s impacts is team foul shots increase when he is on court. A check of FG% alone wouldnt find that. ”
If there’s one guy I’d like to trade for this year it’d be Kidd. I think he’d elevate the play of this team immensely.
He’ll probably end up getting swapped for Kobe or something.
November 21st, 2007 at 12:24 pm
“I suspect many of you guys never saw the NBA in the 80’s. That was the golden age of the NBA. The players and the game were both much better back then. Why do you think TV ratings have been hitting all-time lows lately? Because the current game is so bad that it is almost unwatchable.”
Nobody played any defense in the 80s. That’s the main difference.
But I partially agree with the sentiment. Where I feel the NFL has made major strides in making their game a much more accessible product and instituting fan-friendly changes for the betterment of the game (instant replay being one) the NBA has never embraced that. The changes they come up with have been halfhearted or not very well thought out at all, ie the fiasco with moving the 3 pt line in, then back again, the new ball last year … they just don’t get it.
And as long as the NBA clings to the misguided notion that fans care more about the name on the back of the jersey than the name on the front, they’ll continue to get left behind. They have already marginalized themselves to the point where they aren’t far away from where the NHL was pre-strike. There is credence to the argument that the league’s salary model is broken…we went through a lockout season less than a decade ago and you can see now the number of former max contract players that are no longer with the teams that signed them. The owners have utterly failed to get their financial house in order which was what the lockout was supposed to help do in the first place. Then they hold cities hostage over new arenas to fund this financial ineptitude. I fully realize this when I argue for a new arena because I believe you can’t throw the baby out with the bath water. I can only hope that fiscal sanity comes someday to the NBA, because for all the pro sports BS associated with it I still love the sport. But it’s my hope that when the next CBA come up for discussion that they institute some real changes in the form of an NFL-style hard salary cap and the elimination of guaranteed contracts. As a fan those are the changes I want to see, and I don’t particularly care about the outcry from the players, because the league as a whole is only as strong as its weakest team and there’s a lot of weak teams out there right now.
November 21st, 2007 at 1:20 pm
Don’t how the Kidd situation will play out.
If I were Donnie Nelson I’d try to offer a package for him.
Next CBA could be opportunity for league change if there is a new commish by then. I don’t know if Stern will be honest enough to see the need to make major changes to his work. Next in line guys seem like corporate details guys rather than bold visionaries but maybe change wilol be forced on them. Conceptually I’d go for the changes you suggested or even modest steps in that direction, but they are on their own. I think I’d done offering the NBA suggestions on how to change their product as a whole.
November 21st, 2007 at 1:55 pm
Steve…
Great thoughts in your above post on the state of the NBA. Stern is part of the problem - only part. I think he lacks vision and is in denial on how bad things are getting. I agree - the NBA is heading towards a level of public interest that is similar to hockey - strong for some hard-core fans but the broad appeal will be lacking.
I agree that the CBA is a significant part of the problem where the league has tons of money but cannot manage it at all. The players imply getto much of the pie. Lower the salaries and more money is available for cheaper tickets and less pressure on cities to fund arena’s.
I have followed the NBA & Sonics for years - But I’m getting tired of the BS. At the next time for the CBA to be renewed I’d support the owners if they forced a strike to get some real solid change in the basic system.
And I don’t care what Stern says about how everything is great…. In virtually every game I watch there are PLENTY of empty seats all around the league.
November 21st, 2007 at 3:28 pm
I second these posts about the NBA and CBA money issues. When owners only way to make money is by team valuation increase, which is based on a brand new arena every 10-15 years the system is broken. Remember people are saying the arena in OKC is adequate but not for long. It is only like 5 years old! And far ahead of the Key. What kind of system is that? No other business builds new facilities at huge expense and then claims they are inadequate after only a few years.
November 21st, 2007 at 3:29 pm
Nobody played any defense in the 80s. That’s the main difference.
But I partially agree with the sentiment. Where I feel the NFL has made major strides in making their game a much more accessible product and instituting fan-friendly changes for the betterment of the game (instant replay being one) the NBA has never embraced that. The changes they come up with have been halfhearted or not very well thought out at all, ie the fiasco with moving the 3 pt line in, then back again, the new ball last year … they just don’t get it.
- The reason the NBA appeared to be so much better in the 1980s is that there were only 23 teams at that time. Can you imagine how much more stacked teams would be if there were only 23 teams? That means 35 (or about 1.5 per team) players that are “starter” worthy would be redistributed to the other teams and either push their starters to the bench or be coming off that teams bench.
Combine that with the fact that salaries were lower and there was no salary cap and it shows why certain teams (really only Boston, LA Lakers and SOME Philly) were so good back then. To say that the overall talent level isn’t vastly superior now is down right silly.
- I don’t agree that the NFL has instituted more “fan friendly” policies. There is a reason that it is called the “NO FUN LEAGUE”. However, the number one thing they have realized is that if all the teams band together and do what is best for the league every owner ends out coming ahead. This is why there is more revenue sharing, a hard cap and the fact that portions of revenue get placed in an account to assist teams to build new franchises. This is also why the NFL realizes that it is better in the long run to place the spotlight on the teams and not the individual players (as stated above).
Also, I think the NFL is a better fit for our modern society. One of my friends is more of a casual sports fan, but he has no problem following football because he knows he can do it only 16 days a year…its much more structured and the shorter schedule makes the games vastly more important. Just think many NBA fans pay the same price for a ticket to watch a game that is only worth 1/82nd of the schedule…whereas an NFL ticket allows you to see something that is 1/16th of the schedule making the game much more important.
November 21st, 2007 at 4:25 pm
I like there was less defensive pressure much of the time prior to late 80s but there was some- in the 4th quarter, often inside (less so on perimeter), in games between heated rivals, in the playoffs.
November 21st, 2007 at 5:32 pm
Ok my take on todays players of today, there is alot of atleticism in todays game, opposed to when I played.. There is more size, strength, and conditioning is now broken down into several diiferent parts, diet, body fat etc.. Today’s player also has alot more involvement in businnes transactions, as I have said before, where their focus and priorities are not in check. If you go by a park and watch young kids playing they are all shooting the 3, their crossover dribble is a viaolation as they are carrying the ball. I have worked at camps where point guards that are in high school were never taught to dribble fingertip control, or to keep the ball 6 inches from there feet. Then you have And1, MTV, all of these negative connections to this great game. So I have said I always have had good coaching, my dad was my first coach and taught me the fundamentals as a youngster. I was fortunate enough to have good coaching which is not always the case. I know and have seen alot of guys that should not be coaching. I watched Dave Cowens as a kid, his work ethic and toughness has yet to be matched in the NBA. I played with alot of guys who really busted their balls, and I also played with those guys who did not play hard night after night.. So would I take a player of today over a player of yesterday. NO WAY…..
November 21st, 2007 at 7:11 pm
The reason the NBA appeared to be so much better in the 1980s is that there were only 23 teams at that time. Can you imagine how much more stacked teams would be if there were only 23 teams? That means 35 (or about 1.5 per team) players that are “starter” worthy would be redistributed to the other teams and either push their starters to the bench or be coming off that teams bench.
Combine that with the fact that salaries were lower and there was no salary cap and it shows why certain teams (really only Boston, LA Lakers and SOME Philly) were so good back then. To say that the overall talent level isn’t vastly superior now is down right silly.
You had me up until your last sentence. Back in the 80s, pretty much all the players were 4-yr college vets coming into the league and came to play with a complete set of fundamentals. Nowadays, rosters and cap space are tied up in developing players who may or may not ever pan out. The Sonics roster being a shining example.
November 21st, 2007 at 7:38 pm
Dick Tate said:
“Back in the 80s, pretty much all the players were 4-yr college vets coming into the league and came to play with a complete set of fundamentals. Nowadays, rosters and cap space are tied up in developing players who may or may not ever pan out. The Sonics roster being a shining example.”
I totally agree with this. If anything Stern should be looking at contraction, or at least making the schedule shorter…down to say 72 games maximum. Play each team within the Division 4x, each team in the Conference 3x (home, away, and alternate a home and away every year) and the opposite Conference 2x a year.
Has anybody else ever noticed that each team now has like 5 or 6 coaches on staff, where there used to only have 3? Wonder if working with all those “project” players has anything to do with that?! And why does each team need 15 players on its roster?
November 21st, 2007 at 8:47 pm
There are alot of players from different countries trying to play in the NBA. Alot of them have size, some have size and they are athletic, then the project begins. These players do not know the game at a young age where most play soccer first. I played in Europe, it’s a diiferent style of play all together, half court offense, pass and screen away, all fundamentals, less skill. There are only 4 Americans allowed on some teams, where if your not a 7 footer you better be able to adapt to ant role that team may need.. Thats why when you see these players from Europe they are smart type of players, under control.. You are right saying that most guys used to play 4 years in college which makes a big difference. There are alot of D-3 college teams who win every year because they have 4 year players. Look ay Duke when they were a powerehouse, most were seniors an juniors.
November 22nd, 2007 at 11:41 am
Big Dipper has some interesting points. I didn’t watch Basketball before 1993— but the last few years sometimes on NBA TV I have watched whole games from the 60’s-80’s, and here are my observations.
I believe the culture was different. Coaches seemed to pick the best scorers out of college and the best out of high school, and those players got the most opportunity back then. In that era, Steve Nash would have gotten a bigger opportunity his first 3 seasons in the league right away. Nowadays, and I have seen this, and I don’t always agree with it, they go after the Mohammed Sene’s, the Bruce Bowen’s, and they do all kinds of tests based on athletic skills and size and it takes precedence over pure skills. I call this a cultural thing because just trying out for the team in school and watching the local college players I could outscore many of them, but I was 5″5.5, a little white guy, couldn’t jump, wasn’t rangy on defense, etc., but I could shoot, and had great ball handling, and they could just beat me with their size even though I could score with them and could tell they were not as skilled at scoring the ball. I could shoot 70% and keep up with them, but they would shoot 45% and get rebouds on me, it was lame— and so they woud barely win.
So the game was more about skill and less about physical talent. You have 6″4-6″5 small forwards way back, and he’s right, everyone could shoot. If you couldn’t shoot, you didn’t play seems to be the way it worked, and since all the top shooters played, the game was naturally very uptempo and defense was not the focus, because it was not the focus of those kinds of players.
I think the 1980s was the golden time for Basketball because this process was kind of at in-between point where they were starting to pick people based on potential and athleticism but it hadn’t gotten out of hand like it did in the 90s and today. So you got a great mix of players still playing from an era where if you shot well you played a lot (not everyone who played in the 70s retired by the 80s), but they were starting to pick more players based on pure athletic ability.
Also, way back, there was no three point line, and really when you think about it, no shot from 25 feet is really a good shot, the only difference is its worth that extra pont, so today we actually kind of encourage people to take bad shots with that line there. Back then the players were better from 15 feet in because obviously there was no three point line so they would play with the idea of getting a good shot. Working for a good shot was more important, so passing was better. Its interesting because I think he is right to some degree— it was a more finesse game with more skilled players all compacted on teams (less teams, more quality players on them) but less flashy dunks and athletic plays. A lot less dribbling, and dribbling skills just look worse back then, but they moved the ball via pass very well.
A player like a Nick Collison or a Danny Fortson probably would have been pretty good in the 80s though. All the quickness and athletic ability bothers them, but they both are pretty skilled players. I recall watching Fortson calmly sink 3 pointer after 3 pointer countless times before games with the Sonics a couple years ago. He had good skills, just couldn’t jump really well, and was smaller height-wise than a lot of the long rangy forwards we have nowadays, but maybe he could have been a standout back then.
The players nowadays are younger and don’t make as smart decisions with the ball and playing. Many of them don’t seem to know how to correctly box out their man, and are used to just going over the back for the ball, or setting a screen.
What makes it worse though is that the officials seem SO much more involved than even in the mid-90s. David Stern had Mr Nunn (a formerly ref) standardize officiating, and before that it was a bit more ambiguous based on the individual refs (or so it seems). When you standardize something, everyone is looking to follow rules so closely that they are bound to make more calls, and the flow of the game slows down.
Anyhow, just some observations.
November 22nd, 2007 at 4:30 pm
A lot of good observations in that jrn.
3 pt shot had many affects. Probably won’t ever be reversed in NBA.
Maybe some day a rival league returns. Might be patterned more like older NBA, perhaps without 3 pt shot. Can’t put exceptional size, ability athletes back in the bottle though, nor would you want to.
But you could reduce the size of the rim and make accurate shooting more of a premium. I doubt many would go for that after being used to near 50% shooting.
Or put in a height limit- no one over 6-8 or only one per team on court at a time or something. In a private league you can set the rules but there would be flack about it.
November 22nd, 2007 at 11:13 pm
It seems to me though since they can no longer handcheck and play as physical defense as they could in the 90’s and prior, this will somewhat reduce this trend however. More and more players that can score will become more valuable again. Athletic guys who can score a variety of ways and at a variety of positions. I think its starting to go back the other way a bit, which will be ultimately good for the game.