11/28/07 Box Score: Sonics 94 Magic 110
Posted on Wednesday, November 28th, 2007 at 11:04 pm by Big Chris
Well…at least Rashard didn’t beat us. Dwight Howard is a beast, but that isn’t new news. Howard reminds me of Kemp in his prime, except Howard is quite a bit younger.
The Sonics lost this on poor shooting, and having no way to stop Howard. Durant scored 22 and Szczerbiak 20 but did it on a combined 12 of 41 shooting. We could have really used Nick Collison if nothing else for 5 more fouls.
(14-3)
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(2-14)
| Orlando | ||||||||||||
| Name | Min | FG | 3Pt | FT | Off | Reb | Ast | TO | Stl | Blk | PF | Pts |
| H. Turkoglu | 34 | 4-11 | 2-7 | 5-6 | 3 | 10 | 2 | 2 | 1 | 0 | 5 | 15 |
| R. Lewis | 40 | 3-19 | 1-8 | 2-2 | 3 | 10 | 3 | 3 | 2 | 0 | 3 | 9 |
| D. Howard | 41 | 12-17 | 0-0 | 15-20 | 4 | 16 | 1 | 6 | 0 | 5 | 4 | 39 |
| K. Bogans | 26 | 4-10 | 3-7 | 3-3 | 0 | 4 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 14 |
| J. Nelson | 24 | 3-5 | 0-1 | 0-2 | 0 | 5 | 3 | 1 | 2 | 0 | 1 | 6 |
| M. Evans | 19 | 3-7 | 1-3 | 0-0 | 1 | 3 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 3 | 7 |
| J.J. Redick | 16 | 4-5 | 2-2 | 1-2 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 3 | 11 |
| C. Arroyo | 24 | 0-3 | 0-0 | 2-2 | 0 | 2 | 14 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 2 |
| A. Foyle | 6 | 1-3 | 0-0 | 0-0 | 2 | 4 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 2 |
| B. Cook | 6 | 2-3 | 1-2 | 0-0 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 2 | 0 | 5 |
| J. Augustine | DNP - Coach’s Decision | |||||||||||
| T. Battie | DNP - Coach’s Decision | |||||||||||
| K. Dooling | DNP - Coach’s Decision | |||||||||||
| P. Garrity | DNP - Coach’s Decision | |||||||||||
| Totals | 236 | 36-83 | 10-30 | 28-37 | 13 | 55 | 26 | 15 | 6 | 7 | 21 | 110 |
| Percentages: | .434 | .333 | .757 | Team Rebounds: 11 |
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| Seattle | ||||||||||||
| Name | Min | FG | 3Pt | FT | Off | Reb | Ast | TO | Stl | Blk | PF | Pts |
| D. Wilkins | 25 | 6-14 | 0-1 | 2-2 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 1 | 1 | 2 | 2 | 14 |
| C. Wilcox | 23 | 5-10 | 0-0 | 0-2 | 3 | 10 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 5 | 10 |
| K. Thomas | 31 | 3-7 | 0-0 | 0-2 | 2 | 14 | 2 | 1 | 2 | 1 | 5 | 6 |
| K. Durant | 34 | 6-21 | 0-3 | 10-10 | 2 | 6 | 4 | 2 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 22 |
| D. West | 22 | 3-6 | 0-0 | 0-0 | 1 | 2 | 3 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 2 | 6 |
| J. Petro | 10 | 0-1 | 0-0 | 0-0 | 2 | 3 | 1 | 2 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 0 |
| J. Green | 26 | 3-10 | 0-2 | 3-4 | 3 | 4 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 4 | 9 |
| W. Szczerbiak | 33 | 6-20 | 4-9 | 4-4 | 2 | 2 | 1 | 1 | 2 | 0 | 1 | 20 |
| E. Watson | 25 | 2-6 | 1-3 | 2-2 | 0 | 2 | 4 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 2 | 7 |
| M. Sene | 6 | 0-1 | 0-0 | 0-0 | 0 | 2 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 2 | 2 | 0 |
| N. Collison | DNP - Right Nasal Wall Fr | |||||||||||
| M. Gelabale | DNP - Coach’s Decision | |||||||||||
| L. Ridnour | DNP - Coach’s Decision | |||||||||||
| R. Swift | DNP - Coach’s Decision | |||||||||||
| Totals | 235 | 34-96 | 5-18 | 21-26 | 18 | 48 | 18 | 11 | 6 | 6 | 25 | 94 |
| Percentages: | .354 | .278 | .808 | Team Rebounds: 8 |
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| Game Info | ||||||||||||
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Technical Fouls: Orlando - H. Turkoglu 1. Seattle - K. Thomas 1, J. Green 1 Officials: Derrick Stafford, Ken Mauer, Zach Zarba |
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PopcornMachine’s GameFlow
Plus/Minus
Help Value (hv=Reb+Ast+Blk+Stl-TO)
November 28th, 2007 at 11:11 pm
Howard has the widest shoulders I have ever seen..man..he really is a beast..good to see Shard again..
Green should be getting more time..even if he is “green” he needs to be developed just like KD..
No more WallyZ please..uggh..he can’t go off the dribble to save his life..
November 28th, 2007 at 11:15 pm
Even with the team’s deficiencies, and the mounting losses, I can’t stop watching them play. Even when I have an exam to study for, the Sonics are my first priority. Why oh why can’t we win a few games.
BTW props to KD for being aggressive going to the basket when the shot wasn’t falling. Gotta see more of those 10 free throw attempt games.
November 28th, 2007 at 11:16 pm
Is there one player in the NBA who provides more of a matchup nightmare for teams then Dwight Howard?
While Kobe definitely can’t be guarded be anyone, at least most upper tier teams have a goto swing defender they can matchup on the Black Mamba, but damn, who has a starter who can stop Howard? Tim Duncan? Can he defend to that level anymore?
Of the Pistons, Cavs, and Celtics, who on any of those rosters can truly defend Howard? It’s ridiculous.
November 28th, 2007 at 11:16 pm
This team is such a tease. Its maddening. I thought they looked awful for a 90% of the game. They make a nice comeback….get within 1…..then end up losing by 16!
Dwight Howard is so sick. I dream of us having a big man like that someday. He reminds me of a young Shaq. That kid is just insane.
November 28th, 2007 at 11:22 pm
I agree with you ajw, this team still can’t get wins, but they find a way to make it exciting every game. And it’s a pleasure to watch Durant grow up before our eyes. He showed us another step in his development tonight, when he just wanted to put the game on his shoulders.
November 28th, 2007 at 11:27 pm
I like the fact that Durant is being more aggressive taking the ball to the rack. Especially since he is shooting such a low percentage. Its promising. When he gets stronger he will be a much better finisher. I almost wish he would pull up short for the jumper more vs taking it all the way where he tends to lean in for charges or get blocked.
Still in awe of D-Howard. 22 years old. Is it possible for him to get bigger? Scary thought. And to think I thought Okafor should have been the #1 pick at the time. Good thing I’m no GM. Talk about the difference a couple of years makes.
November 28th, 2007 at 11:36 pm
“Dwight Howard is so sick. I dream of us having a big man like that someday.”
We could’ve. Too bad we picked a big goofy white guy 3 spots before him though. The guy I’m talking about had a 31 and 14 performance tonight. Sigh.
November 28th, 2007 at 11:44 pm
Jefferson is great but he’s no Howard. That decision, moreso than the decision to draft Sene over Ronnie Brewer, is haunting the Sonics right now and the near future.
November 28th, 2007 at 11:54 pm
Funny you should mention Jefferson. I just posted a highlight videos of him and another guy we could have had on the message board.
November 28th, 2007 at 11:55 pm
We could have our own Dwight Howard clone (DeAndre Jordan) eventually.
November 29th, 2007 at 12:01 am
If you didn’t get enough Dwight Howard tonight:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=q2hM0Q2ZoLY
http://youtube.com/watch?v=8o5_jGvyVvo
November 29th, 2007 at 12:03 am
“We could have our own Dwight Howard clone (DeAndre Jordan) eventually. ”
He’s shooting 18% from the line. Impressive.
November 29th, 2007 at 12:06 am
Nice that you focus on the kid’s one negative so far. He’s shooting 85% from the field, which has set some sort of record already.
November 29th, 2007 at 12:07 am
Menace, Bynum was drafted in 2005. The Sonics were picking late in the first round that season. They could not have drafted Bynum unless they moved up in that draft.
November 29th, 2007 at 12:10 am
Who said anything about Bynum? Thats the only youtube clip of Swift that exists.
November 29th, 2007 at 12:12 am
My error. I opened the clip, saw Bynum and turned it off while assuming that it was a video of Bynum.
November 29th, 2007 at 12:57 am
First of all, Rashard didn’t get any love.
I was expecting a tribute video in the beginning - didn’t happen.
Then I expect the PA guy will let Rashard get at least a minute of standing ovation, instead he got a whooping 2 seconds.
Pretty terrible way to treat a guy who played 9 years for us if you ask me.
As for the game, I don’t think I need to talk more about Dwight Howard.
Our team is so stagnant on offense. It is painful to watch. The only bright spots on the team are Durant’s relentless attacks and Kurt Thomas.
I thought Durant forced his shots in the beginning, and once again, he drove to the hoop everytime in the fourth quarter. His energy really kick started our little meaningless run.
Kurt Thomas is the best defensive player on our team right now. That is just sad if you ask me.
This 35 year old veteran hustles more on defense than any of our young’n. He’s out there rebounding like his life depends on it, takes charges on defense, setting picks, doing the dirty works.
I thought last year was sad but man… rebuilding really does suck for the fans.
November 29th, 2007 at 1:11 am
Years ago I stopped watching the dunk contest, but for some reason I watched the whole thing this past spring. DH was sick posting that sticker near the top of the board while dunking. And while he looked great last year, who knew he would progress so much in one off season with this intermediate game? Not that he needed it against the supes… but he will be dominating games for years to come.
November 29th, 2007 at 1:18 am
If anyone, Dwight Howard physically reminds me of an upgraded version of David Robinson. He is a freaking specimen.
November 29th, 2007 at 1:26 am
stopped watching dunk contest?
Man I live for the dunk contest baby.
anyway, yeah dude. If you hung a dollar bill off the top of the backboard, Dwight HOward can snatch it.
Finally, I tink Dwight HOward has officially dethroned Erick Dampier for the widest set of shoulders in the NBA.
November 29th, 2007 at 2:24 am
Wally need start,he and Kevin will be great shoting tandem but they need minutes together and Wally in starting 5 then Sonics will win…
November 29th, 2007 at 2:36 am
“Nice that you focus on the kid’s one negative so far. He’s shooting 85% from the field, which has set some sort of record already. ”
That bad free throw percentage probably indicates that he can’t shoot. From the scouting reports I’ve read and the clips I’ve seen, he doesn’t look like anything more than an athletic 7-foot specimen (don’t we have plenty of those?)who can’t do much besides dunk and cleanup putbacks. If he spends another 3 years in college to hone his skills, then he’d be a nice pickup. I highly doubt we want to develop another 7 footer though…
Then again I’ve never seen him play so who knows.
November 29th, 2007 at 6:31 am
I’m taking consolation in the fact that Durant has yet to shoot as badly as 3-19.
November 29th, 2007 at 8:10 am
Howard is a total beast; a man amongst boys. There isn’t a team in the league that wouldn’t love to have a player like him. For us it hurts to have spent 3 successive 1st round picks at the same position and have absolutely nothing to show for it…..
November 29th, 2007 at 8:46 am
I know pretty much anyone could have a boatload of assists feeding Howard so I’m not going to give Arroyo alot of credit. But what does it say when he can continually beat the Sonics pointguards and drive to the lane?
I see a player like Jose Calderon, who has a sick ratio in his last 4 games of 45 assists to just 4 turnovers( he’s leading the league by almost double to the next guy). Then I look and the next guy is Antonio Daniels, who is another guard that’s not flashy but simply efficient.
There’s got to be some guard out there that can help.
November 29th, 2007 at 8:57 am
Oh, and I think I’ve officially given up on Chris Wilcox as well. Jeff Green may be a raw rookie, and Kurt Thomas may be an aging player on the downhill side of his career, but both attempted to put their bodies on the line against Howard, even though they got physically beat up( heck, even Durant tried to hurl his skinny frame at Howard).
In my books there’s no excuse for Wilcox to be as lazy on defense as he was.
November 29th, 2007 at 9:02 am
“We could have our own Dwight Howard clone (DeAndre Jordan) eventually.”
One word: CANCER!
EPSN:
“Averaged 19 points, 14 rebounds and 6 blocks for Christian Life Center in Houston as a senior.
Positives: Big-time athlete. Great body. Very long. Explosive leaper. Excellent rebounder and shot-blocker. Strong finisher around the basket. Runs the floor well.
Negatives: Inconsistent effort during his high school years has scouts spooked a little. Doesn’t always play hard. Disappears for stretches. Still fairly raw offensively. Gets most of points off dunks. No face-the-basket game.
Summary: On talent, he’s got the makings of a top-five pick. But scouts are concerned enough about his work ethic that no one is sure whether he’ll actually develop the way his talent suggests. An impressive showing at the under-19s tryouts has helped his stock.”
Draftexpress.com doesn’t even have in their lastest Mock (Nov 21st) and they say:
“Offensively, he has shown some flashes of potential, as well. For one, the way that he uses his size and athleticism against some of the lesser competition he has faced in McNeese State is impressive, sailing in for acrobatic dunks over smaller competition. Against a more formidable defender, such as Washington’s Jon Brockman, he also showed competency, utilizing some decent footwork to spin and lay the ball in. Overall, Jordan is extremely raw on the offensive end, but these flashes are enough to suggest that he’s going to be able to develop some good post moves in the future. The fact that he has post instincts is promising and the ways that he moves. Also of note is how efficient he is in the Texas A&M offense alongside NIT Tip-Off MVP Joseph Jones. He doesn’t force anything and though he clearly has the ability to be more of a factor on the offensive end, you can tell he is sacrificing his own stat line for the sake of the team.
Perhaps the real reason we’re talking about DeAndre Jordan is the fact that he set the Big 12 record for consecutive baskets made at 17. At this stage, he is probably one of the most efficient scorers in NCAA basketball, averaging over 85% from the field. The only pressing concerns about Jordan involve his horrid free throw percentage, 18% on 22 attempts. Though coach Mark Turgeon attributes it to stage fright, this is definitely something to watch throughout the season.”
The guy is your classic example of a guy with talent that has yet to prove that he’s more that what his natural gifts have given him. If any of you watched the UW game in the NIT you saw that he single handedly kept the dawgs in the game in the first half because he was 0-8 from the free throw line. On the year he’s shooting over 80% form the field, but only 16.7% from the charity stripe. If this guy truly isn’t a hard worker, then he’s unlikely to be more than a Shaq or Howard type guy from the line.
That said, he’s got all the potential in the world. If the Sonics draft him, he better also have some motivation to work hard or he’ll devolve up here in Seattle’s chaotic state of the franchise.
November 29th, 2007 at 9:05 am
BTW props to KD for being aggressive going to the basket when the shot wasn’t falling. Gotta see more of those 10 free throw attempt games.
- Very true
November 29th, 2007 at 9:35 am
I think DeAndre Jordan is still too raw. He should stay in college another year. Koufos looks ready. He has an offensive game. If you cannot score or shoot free throws you are a liability on the court. We already have Sene. We don’t need another 7′ guy that is riding the end of the bench.
November 29th, 2007 at 9:47 am
All of you Sene haters can go to hell!
Last night when he was in the game he made good things happen. He made the opposing players think twice about going to the basket, he helped make space on the floor, he actually did a little something against Howard. He tipped the ball a few times to help secure the rebound. Give this kid more time on the floor and he will become a solid NBA player.
November 29th, 2007 at 9:47 am
I thought they were going to win that game. CRAP CRAP CRAP. I posted this yesterday and this game reflected it:
“I feel we are just a few more games of playing together with a healthy roster of stringing some wins. We are also a loss or two away from locker room meltdown and utter 12 win season collapse. If the Sonics can get rewarded for their efforts with a couple of wins then you will see the “culture” and “vision” Presti is talking about. Sene hustling for a rebound and tipping it in for the other team is a microcosm of what is happening. Effort with no reward and worse is effort and a kick in the nuts like we seem to be getting.”
We got kicked in the nuts again.
November 29th, 2007 at 10:00 am
“All of you Sene haters can go to hell!”
I’m neither a Sene hater nor a Sene lover. I didn’t love the draft pick at the time but I could understand it given his potential. Over time, I’ve grown more and more negative, but I still like to think that he could eventually redeem himself. However, I it is ludicrous to claim that he “made good things happen” last night. The one play that distinctly stands out in my mind was when a defensive rebound landed right in his hands and he spazzed out and fumbled it. One of the Orlando bigs (Howard, I think) recovered it and went up for an easy bucket.
Also, did you see his post up opportunity? He threw up a “jump-hook” that clanged off the backboard at a comical angle. He was clearly the worst player on the court, and to be honest, everyone in my section was laughing at him. I haven’t looked at the +/- stats or anything like that, but to those of us at the game, it was blatantly obvious that he was lost out there.
This is not a matter of Sene needing time to develop. It’s a matter of lacking basic motor skills and coordination. Someone like DeAndre Jordan has infinitely more potential than Sene because he is a natural athlete. I’ve seen him play, and he has an innate understanding of positioning and footwork. Plus he has great hands - he snares rebounds effortlessly. You can teach offense to a guy like that; at the very least, he can be an Erick Dampier type presence. Sene, on the other hand, is just too awkward and clumsy to ever be a consistent contributor in the NBA. I hope he proves me wrong, though.
November 29th, 2007 at 10:04 am
BTW, I agree with the above poster who said that DeAndre should stay in college. He’s eventually going to be a good NBA player, but he’ll learn much more by carrying his team as a college sophomore/junior than riding the bench in the League. And to those of you who indiscriminately blast him because of the scouting reports you’ve read and the Sonics’ bad experiences with raw centers, I suggest you watch him play. Unlike Swift/Petro/Sene, he has the type of athleticism and aggressiveness that could make him a star.
November 29th, 2007 at 10:06 am
“Also, did you see his post up opportunity?”
I call it example one of why Delonte West isn’t a PG. Tell me who in thier right mind thinks that throwing the ball into Sene in the post against Howard is a good idea? Then tell me who the hell throws it BACK into him after he throws it out?
“The one play that distinctly stands out in my mind was when a defensive rebound landed right in his hands and he spazzed out and fumbled it.”
Happened right in front of me, Howard nudged him slightly and the rebound came off long.
“but to those of us at the game, it was blatantly obvious that he was lost out there.”
Yes, those at the game last night we’re obviously an intelligent bunch. He did fine, he gave Howard the most problems of any of our bigs.
November 29th, 2007 at 10:15 am
Mike Wilks just got released. Maybe we should give him a 10 day contract.
November 29th, 2007 at 10:18 am
“Happened right in front of me, Howard nudged him slightly and the rebound came off long.”
Oh my goodness, the poor baby! He was “slightly nudged”???? Well that explains anything. How could a 7′ center be expected to grab an uncontested rebound while being “slightly nudged”?
Look, I love the debates in this forum as much as anyone, but I get sick of the posters who are unwilling to budge even a little bit. It seems like everyone is predisposed to either defend Sene to the death or skewer him at every opportunity. Most people probably stated an opinion about him on draft day and don’t want to capitulate on that stance. Quit trying to spin everything he does as either extremely positive or extremely negative. My unbiased perspective is that he still has some Tremendous Upside Potential, but only about a 10-20% chance of realizing that potential. And he has not shown me anything in a game situation to convince me that he ever will.
“Yes, those at the game last night we’re obviously an intelligent bunch.”
Lastly, if you are going to insult my intelligence, please do so in a grammatically correct fashion.
November 29th, 2007 at 10:23 am
Much better.
November 29th, 2007 at 10:24 am
Scott, what happened to that last lovely post?
November 29th, 2007 at 10:25 am
“We could’ve. Too bad we picked a big goofy white guy 3 spots before him though. The guy I’m talking about had a 31 and 14 performance tonight. Sigh.”
Yeah, but Jefferson is in no way in Howard’s class.
Howard plays both ends of the court, where Jefferson is a great offensive player, but not all that much of a defender.
Though, right now, taking Jefferson would have been the better move, as he’s shown since about one month into last years season, that he’s a real good pf in this league.
“We could have our own Dwight Howard clone (DeAndre Jordan) eventually. ”
Yeah, but i think that there are other guys(Rose, Mayo, Gordon) in our range that we probably have to take over him. Though, maybe we could trade up for another lottery pick and get Jordan as well. Something like Rose/Jordan would be a brilliant draft for us, but is most likely too much to ask for.
November 29th, 2007 at 10:27 am
Well, my DVR crapped the bed so I didn’t get to watch the game… did Sene really look that bad? I mean, you can’t really grade a player who only got six minutes, but he did get 2 blocked shots and two rebounds in that short amount of time.
Sene is never going to be an offensive force… but neither was Dikembe Mutombo. His hands are mediocre, his shooting touch is poor and his post moves are mechanical. The thing is, if you’re judging him on his offense then you are really missing the boat.
This team, more than anything else, needs a shot blocker. Our defense is terrible, and none of our power forwards have enough length to challenge shots. Say what you will about Sene, but his length gives him the ability to make things tough on opponents around the basket. He’s also a very good rebounder on a per-minute basis. He also runs the floor extremely well which is important when you play at the pace that the Sonics do.
There are plenty of NBA players who play significant or even prominent roles on their teams despite having severe offensive deficiencies. At the high end you have guys like Mutombo, Ben Wallace and Dennis Rodman. For the Sonics we had guys like Ervin Johnson and Reggie Evans who were useful. The guy in Dallas, Diop, is having a really nice season for the Mavs and he’s cut from the same cloth as Sene.
Yes, he’s a young guy and very new to basketball… and he’s painful to watch sometimes. But hey, we’re not winning, we’ve got two big men out and one on a bad hamstring. Give Sene 15-20 minutes a night and see if he can make an impact defensively.
I’m not saying Sene is going to be a long term answer, but when your team is 2-14 and the alternative Johan Petro, you gotta at least give Sene a stretch of games with significant minutes to see what he can do.
November 29th, 2007 at 10:32 am
“Well that explains anything. How could a 7′ center be expected to grab an uncontested rebound while being “slightly nudged”?”
It wasn’t uncontested, Howard was right there and Green was coming from the baseline side to help keep Howard off the boards.
Howards slight nudge moved Sene slightly, but the majority of the problem was that the rebound was off a longer shot (I believe JJ Redick). If you’re going to call the rebound uncontested because it makes Mo look bad, but will acknowledge that he got bumped which one is it?
Mo should be playing in the NBDL right now, but due to injuries he may have to play some minutes up here. Honestly, he wasn’t the worst player on the court last night (Adonal Foyle everybody!) and he did a decent job against Howard. I didn’t think he was anything special but I think with the right lineup out there he’s a guy you can use.
Sorry about the pop off comment, I don’t check any grammar when I write unless its an initial comment starter. WRiting while working does that;)
November 29th, 2007 at 10:38 am
Hey, I’m with you on that. With Collison and Swift out, I’m all for letting Sene sink or swim. I want him to succeed as much as any of you. I just don’t think it’s fair to say that he “made good things happen” last night. He was a non-factor at best, and those who say otherwise are simply trying to defend deep-rooted positions.
November 29th, 2007 at 10:40 am
Can someone describe Sene’s blocks last night? Were they on the ball, or in help defense? Emphatic? Who were they against?
November 29th, 2007 at 10:41 am
PS - we need to make a trade ASAP so that we have a new topic to beat to death. I don’t know if I can tolerate another Mo Sene or Earl vs. Luke debate.
November 29th, 2007 at 10:45 am
“I just don’t think it’s fair to say that he “made good things happen” last night.”
I think it is fair. He played six minutes, in those minutes they were even with the Magic, in the other 42 they were -16. His HV was 4, which is pretty damn good in 6 minutes of work.
Now there were a couple negatives, which also need to be commented on. His hook shot was bad, and I mean really bad and he should have grabbed that rebound on the play we’ve been discussing. There was also a play where he was 3/4 fronting and the Magic player threw a skip pass to the top and Howard rolled for the dunk and it really made Mo look like he had no clue what happened.
November 29th, 2007 at 10:50 am
Sene wasn’t a stopper last night but he filled space and made people think twice about waltzing down the lane. He is too light to handle DW but find me someone besides Shaq who isn’t too light. DW is a monster. Sene needs more PT.
November 29th, 2007 at 10:51 am
I honestly don’t remember Sene’s blocks. I was surprised to see them in the box score.
November 29th, 2007 at 10:55 am
Well let’s see, this is Foyle’s eleventh year in the NBA. Any bets that Yinka Sene will still be around in 2017-18?
November 29th, 2007 at 10:56 am
I think it is fair. He played six minutes, in those minutes they were even with the Magic, in the other 42 they were -16
Also, the players he was on the court with (Wally, Green, Wilkins, West) had the worst +/- numbers on the team for that game (not counting Petro)… so Sene managed a 0 +/- despite who he was playing with. Plus, Howard was on the floor the entire time Sene was in.
November 29th, 2007 at 10:57 am
I think it was Bogans who was driving to the basket, saw Sene standing there waiting, and Bogans decided to turn around.
If it had been Thomas, Collison, or Petro there it probably would have been a layup and maybe a foul shot.
That is what I mean by making good things happen.
November 29th, 2007 at 10:58 am
Sene’s size and presence causes opposing players to hesitate.
November 29th, 2007 at 11:26 am
Yes, what Vinny said. It’s not even the 2 blocks, it’s the guards not having a freeway to the rim for uncontested right hand layups. With more PT he will be in the correct place to disrupt passes, help AND recover on the weakside and not get sealed for the lob. 6 minutes 2 rebs 2 blks and by my count he changed at least 3 shots that Petro would be already stepping out of bounds to inbound the ball.
November 29th, 2007 at 11:52 am
He was clearly the worst player on the court, and to be honest, everyone in my section was laughing at him.
- Classic…
Well let’s see, this is Foyle’s eleventh year in the NBA. Any bets that Yinka Sene will still be around in 2017-18?
- A topic that Heavy and I firmy agree with each other…sad…this also made me laugh for some reason.
At the high end you have guys like Mutombo, Ben Wallace and Dennis Rodman. For the Sonics we had guys like Ervin Johnson and Reggie Evans who were useful. The guy in Dallas, Diop, is having a really nice season for the Mavs and he’s cut from the same cloth as Sene.
- I would argue that the biggest difference between Sene and the guys (at least most of them) you listed above is the fact they there were all pretty d@mn “basketball smart”. Most people hate Dennis Rodman, but to me he was always one of the smartest players on the court (Rasheed is in that same mold). Being that when I was in 5th grade I had already played more basketball than Sene I just don’t see much of a change for him to learn those smarts.
I would also point out that most of those players were either not drafted or drafted in the 2nd round. If Sene was some 45th pick or something (which is more reasonable to his skill set) I don’t think many people would dislike Sene so much. Unlike some people here…we expect more production from a #10 player in the draft.
November 29th, 2007 at 12:00 pm
I agree with DK…Wilcox is a waste of talent. He plays no defense and is so soft on defense. He missed several shots under the basket because he refuses to go up strong and dunk. He has a huge upper body but does not use it. I watch weak point guards strip him or prevent him from going up for a dunk..no excuse. Not a big fan of Wilkins either. He slows the ball down and his defense is not anywhere close to what it was in the years past. All of our runs last night came with wilkins and Wilcox on the bench. Trade both of them.
November 29th, 2007 at 12:03 pm
Actually the more I look into it, Adonal Foyle is a pretty apropos comparison to Sene. He was drafted 8th in 1997, & has been a consistent shot blocker who was ranked first in shots blocked/ 48 minutes in 2001-2 with 5.43/game. Blocked 492 shots at Colgate breaking the NCAA record of Alonzo Mourning who blocked 453. He has accumulated 1,150 blocks in his NBA career thus far over 10+ years. My guess is we’ll be lucky to get those kind of career stats out of Sene.
November 29th, 2007 at 12:04 pm
we expect more production from a #10 player in the draft.
Where the player is chosen is not as much of an issue as what is left on the board when drafting. Who was left that could have been drafted instead of Sene? Ronnie Brewer? JJ Redick? Quincy Douby? I think any of those players that were left on the board would have had equal results thus far without the upside of Sene.
http://hoopedia.nba.com/index.php/NBA_Draft_2006
November 29th, 2007 at 12:15 pm
we all know the sene is not going to drop 36 points. but what sene can do is take up space in the middle block some shots or maybe even alter some shots.
November 29th, 2007 at 12:17 pm
about DeAndre Jordan…
as “raw” as his offensive game is, its still more polished than sene’s, and his shot selection and efficiency is greater than petro’s. dwight howard had a similar scouting report too coming out of highschool saying that his offensive game was ony built around dunks.
his coach says that his freethrow shooting is drastically better in practice, so that means the problem is mental.
so to wrap things up i think presti should push hard to get 2 top five picks in next years draft (a rose/jordan combo?). at worst we get a sean williams clone. at best we get a dwight howard or andrew bynum type player
November 29th, 2007 at 12:18 pm
about DeAndre Jordan…
as “raw” as his offensive game is, its still more polished than sene’s, and his shot selection and efficiency is greater than petro’s. dwight howard had a similar scouting report too coming out of highschool saying that his offensive game was ony built around dunks.
his coach says that his freethrow shooting is drastically better in practice, so that means the problem is mental.
so to wrap things up i think presti should push hard to get 2 top five picks in next years draft (a rose/jordan combo?). at worst we get a sean williams clone. at best we get a dwight howard or andrew bynum type player
November 29th, 2007 at 12:20 pm
In case you are interested here is a highlight video that shows some good shot blocking and rebounding.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=s6Ho_dsWHvk
November 29th, 2007 at 12:27 pm
Over & over again…
November 29th, 2007 at 12:33 pm
on a different note,
does anyone else think green is the best defensive guy (well maybe kurt) out on the court? the guy gets his hands on every looseball opportunities.
November 29th, 2007 at 12:33 pm
i meant to say for the sonics…
November 29th, 2007 at 12:37 pm
Sene is a game changer. More often for bad than good right now, but so what. He makes both teams play differently, and for a 2-14 team, that’s ok. He changes the rhythm of the game, and there are a lot of times that is exactly what we need. I don’t bring him in when we’re in a good flow and are up…but when things aren’t working and the game is starting to slide away, we bring in the “Walking Wild Card” just to shake things up. It’s sorta like taking a timeout to just try to stop the momentum….Mo makes the other team do things a bit differently (like switching from zone to man, etc.). Hopefully over time he’ll get good enough to change things for the good more often than the bad….
November 29th, 2007 at 1:00 pm
Where the player is chosen is not as much of an issue as what is left on the board when drafting. Who was left that could have been drafted instead of Sene? Ronnie Brewer? JJ Redick? Quincy Douby? I think any of those players that were left on the board would have had equal results thus far without the upside of Sene.
- You are joking right?? Hmm how about any of the three PGs on the list below him…
November 29th, 2007 at 1:09 pm
It’s pretty silly to judge Sene on where he was drafted… sure, judge Walker and Sund on it because it was their decision. But as far as Sene’s career now, where he was drafted is irrelevant. What IS relevant is what he can offer on the court relative to the other options we have on the roster. I mean, if Sene had been the 45th pick in the draft, would you then be rooting for him to get playing time?
November 29th, 2007 at 1:11 pm
Whenever I think of Mouhamed Sene, these are some of the names that come to mind: Didier Ilunga-Mbenga, Boniface N’Dong, Olumide Oyedeji, & Soumaila Samake. As was with Sene, none of those guys had played amateur basketball domestically upon entering the NBA.
At least Dikembe Mutombo had played college basketball — or, in the case of DeSagana Diop, attended an American high school and played basketball there — thus, they weren’t goddamn neophytes. Hell, that’s why Hasheem Thabeet — regardless of the fact that the Seattle Supersonics ought to avoid drafting him like the plague — should have an easier time transitioning to the NBA than Serge Ibaka.
November 29th, 2007 at 1:14 pm
Myk - are you really saying Reggie Evans and Ervin Johnson were “pretty damn basketball smart?” I mean, they were good guys who worked hard to improve, but I certainly wouldn’t call them geniuses of the the hardcourt.
Sene doesn’t have to be Rodman to help this team; he just has to be a serviceable defensive center for 20 minutes a night.
November 29th, 2007 at 2:22 pm
It’s pretty silly to judge Sene on where he was drafted… sure, judge Walker and Sund on it because it was their decision. But as far as Sene’s career now, where he was drafted is irrelevant. What IS relevant is what he can offer on the court relative to the other options we have on the roster. I mean, if Sene had been the 45th pick in the draft, would you then be rooting for him to get playing time?
- If Sene was the 45th pick in the draft he wouldn’t be on the team right now so it wouldn’t matter…and if somehow he did make the roster there wouldn’t be nearly as many fans on here wanting him to play more. To say that people do not associate his draft position with his name seems pretty unlikely.
Myk - are you really saying Reggie Evans and Ervin Johnson were “pretty damn basketball smart?” I mean, they were good guys who worked hard to improve, but I certainly wouldn’t call them geniuses of the the hardcourt.
Sene doesn’t have to be Rodman to help this team; he just has to be a serviceable defensive center for 20 minutes a night.
- Its been so long since Ervin played that I can’t really give a great synopsis of his ability. Although again…if we had draft Ervin Johnson at 10 instead of 20 some I think people would be pretty disappointed with his performance (not that I think many are impressed with his performance in the first place).
Reggie is very smart at the game of basketball and the things it takes to be a good rebounder. He obviously has a very good understanding of where a basketball is going to end up if the shot is missed. Also, amazingly enough players that are usually the “dirtiest” end up seeming smarter than the other ones. They get away with 9 things and get caught for 1 thing because they understand what refs are paying attention too and how to get away with things. Again, we are not talking overall brainpower here…this is specifically smarts when it comes to basketball and being able to perform at a high level.
Finally, Sene doesn’t have to be Rodman…but I’d be shocked if he was ever a serviceable defensive center at any point in his short lived career. I’m sure all the Sene backers were also big Jelani McCoy, Oydejdi (sp?) even Jerome James backer at some point…just don’t get why people fall in love with big guys who show very little potential.
November 29th, 2007 at 2:25 pm
“Who was left that could have been drafted instead of Sene? Ronnie Brewer? JJ Redick? Quincy Douby? I think any of those players that were left on the board would have had equal results thus far without the upside of Sene.”
I’d take any of those players in a heart beat over Sene. The one I really wanted was Brewer and I didn’t anticipate him being as good as he is. Did you not see Redick shooting 2-2 from 3 pt and 4-5 FG in 11 minutes last night?
November 29th, 2007 at 2:25 pm
“about DeAndre Jordan…
as “raw” as his offensive game is, its still more polished than sene’s, and his shot selection and efficiency is greater than petro’s. dwight howard had a similar scouting report too coming out of highschool saying that his offensive game was ony built around dunks.
his coach says that his freethrow shooting is drastically better in practice, so that means the problem is mental. ”
Vin Baker #2? No thanks.
November 29th, 2007 at 2:42 pm
“Where the player is chosen is not as much of an issue as what is left on the board when drafting. Who was left that could have been drafted instead of Sene? Ronnie Brewer? JJ Redick? Quincy Douby? I think any of those players that were left on the board would have had equal results thus far without the upside of Sene.”
To be honest I never even thought Sene was on our radar at #10, and thought Brewer or Carney were locks at that spot. Then when they picked him, I was honestly intrigued at his size, his speed, and long arms.
…But lets be honest, the dude doesn’t know what the fack he’s doing out there.
Brewer, Redick, Sefolosha, Marcus Williams would be my picks…hell we should’ve taken that defensive beast Ronaldo Balkman.
November 29th, 2007 at 2:42 pm
With Collison out for 3 games, this is a good opportunity to see what Sene can do right now. Give him some minutes and see if his inability to grab uncontested rebounds is a result of nerves or something. Then send him down to the develpment league if he doesn’t show any bright spots.
November 29th, 2007 at 2:48 pm
If you paid close attention to how Sene did in the D-league last year (I kept tract of every box score) you saw a guy who started out slow and finished really good (tons of rebounds and a pretty decent shooting %). I may be slow, but this tells me that he got better with more playing time. Although, throwing him out there for a minute or 2 stretch of time is almost worse than no time at all. The young man needs to be given a consistent 20 minutes a game. Few coaches have the guts to do that, however.
November 29th, 2007 at 2:51 pm
I don’t see how anyone can make a conclusive judgment on Sene’s game, because he hasn’t played any real minutes yet (and I doubt he’s gotten much practice time in P.J.’s rotations). He’s got a positive +/- for the season, so you certainly can’t say he’s killed us when he has been in there.
All I’m saying is, throw him in and see what happens.
November 29th, 2007 at 2:58 pm
“- You are joking right?? Hmm how about any of the three PGs on the list below him…”
I assume you mean Rondo, Farmer, & Gibson? Ok - any of those 3 players most likely would have made a bigger impact on this team than Sene has. I think that is an accurate assumption.
I also think that right now today, PJ has to choose between Petro & Sene. That choice is obvious. Petro just has this uncanny ability to be in exactly the wrong place or position all of the time. Johan showed promise that year when Bob Hill took over in the middle of the season. I don’t know what has happened since then. Sene on the other hand is showing more positive growth on the court right now today, than either Petro or Swift. Hopefully Swift will recover fully from his injury and become the solid player that he seemed to be on his way to becoming. If that happens then 2 out of the three centers drafted in a row will have worked out, or will work out. I believe those two are worth hanging onto and believing in. Petro? Not so much.
November 29th, 2007 at 3:03 pm
The thing about Petro is, he doesn’t really give us anything that our regulars don’t. He’s basically a tall power forward - he’s not a great shot blocker. So even if he is further along than Sene, he doesn’t really give us what we need, he just gives us a worse version of what we already have.
Sene and Swift are the only guys that can give us consistent shot blocking, and Swift is out of the equation at the moment. That’s why Sene should get the call.
November 29th, 2007 at 3:08 pm
“The guy in Dallas, Diop, is having a really nice season for the Mavs and he’s cut from the same cloth as Sene.” - Big Worm
Unfortunately this is not true. Sene started to learned how to play basketball only 18 months before the Sonics drafted him in the 2006 draft. Were as, Diop migrated from Africa to US for high school (four years by the way). Then was drafted an mired on the bench for Cleveland until his rookie contract ran out. I always thought the sonics should have give him a try out, but really no body, but Dallas wanted him. And even after getting him it took two more seasons to get were he is now (hell he volunteered to play in the summer league, because his offensive game is still really raw). If this is Sene’s future, then is he really worth our time. Furthermore, Diop main problem wasn’t his lack basketball skills/IQ (granted that was problem for Diop) but rather it was weight problems. I believe he’s shed some 60 pounds since joining the Mavericks.
So in short Diop is an ok comparison but definitely flawed one. I just think there only one Sene and thank god for that!
November 29th, 2007 at 3:09 pm
Whenever I think of Mouhamed Sene, these are some of the names that come to mind: Didier Ilunga-Mbenga, Boniface N’Dong, Olumide Oyedeji, & Soumaila Samake.
lol, that was great.
I actually DID like Olumide, mainly because it was so fun pronouncing his name.
I liked Jelani McCoy too, because he played with a chip on his shoulder and worked hard to block/contest shots.
Another thing I just found out is Diop just got relieved of his starting duties in Dallas.
At any rate, I still want to run Sene out there for 20 mins a night and see what happens.
November 29th, 2007 at 3:11 pm
Wilcox is just want big money $$$ in the offense but so lame in defense(rebound, boxout, hustle) and he will chill out in the corner because he always get blocked when he face athletic boy like Howard.
He also has low basketball IQ and no work ethic at all. I prefer see him being benched than watching him lost in defense.
He just need to be traded!!! I think he is the biggest problem in all Sonic losses.
November 29th, 2007 at 3:21 pm
To be honest I never even thought Sene was on our radar at #10, and thought Brewer or Carney were locks at that spot. Then when they picked him, I was honestly intrigued at his size, his speed, and long arms.
…But lets be honest, the dude doesn’t know what the fack he’s doing out there.
Brewer, Redick, Sefolosha, Marcus Williams would be my picks…hell we should’ve taken that defensive beast Ronaldo Balkman.
- You appear to be VERY honest
I don’t see how anyone can make a conclusive judgment on Sene’s game, because he hasn’t played any real minutes yet (and I doubt he’s gotten much practice time in P.J.’s rotations). He’s got a positive +/- for the season, so you certainly can’t say he’s killed us when he has been in there.
- I think the big issue for people who don’t like Sene is that we can’t understand why others can’t see that he is really just not a very good basketball player. Simply not able to play in the NBA based on his footwork and overall skills.
People keep throwin Diop out there like “maybe one day he could be as good as Diop”…the sad thing is that Diop was light years ahead of him when he got into the league. After getting into the league it took him four years to even be way below average. Diop is NOT a good player folks…the only reason he is getting these accolades is because he was truly horrible when he came into the league and he was lucky enough to be OK for one playoff series…
November 29th, 2007 at 3:30 pm
Wilcox, for all his faults, is the best Sonic player as of today. Sad but true (look at his +/- - amazing given he plays with Durant so much).
November 29th, 2007 at 3:31 pm
People compare Sene to Diop mainly because they are the same type of player: Offensively limited but with tremendous length that makes them a factor defensively. Of course they’re both African, and all that, but mainly it’s because they have a lot of similar characteristics physcially.
Diop is not a ‘good’ player but he is a significant player on a good team. He’s getting 7.5 rebounds and 2.2 blocks in 24 minutes a game this year, which is a nice solid contribution. He really showed his value with the Mavs beat the Spurs in the playoffs a couple years back.
Sene is obviously “not a very good basketball player.” But he does have a rare gift in terms of length that could make him useful on this team despite his overall deficiencies. Whether or not this proves true or not, we won’t find out unless we play him.
I don’t see why people would be opposed to that; we’re 2-14 and the alternative to Sene is friggin’ Johan Petro. Somebody explain that to me.
November 29th, 2007 at 3:32 pm
To add to what Myk is saying here about Diop’s progress in the league, how can anyone argue that if Sene did the same thing it would benefit the Sonics? We’d be talking about 4 or 5 years from now!
I’m okay with playing Sene more to take a blind shot in the dark at developing him, just can’t see anyone having more than Minimal expectations of him. And it pretty much is throwing the towel in very early in a bad season.
November 29th, 2007 at 3:34 pm
McCoy don’t look at stat because it’s deceiving. Durant needs to be surrounded by players who give consistent effort on both ends of the floor so that he understands what it takes to win. Not half-hearted Wilcox who seems never interested in defense.
Even Durant a rookie in 16 games willing to plestering Howard close denying entry pass. Not like Wilcox who just reach his arm to foul the beast.
November 29th, 2007 at 3:37 pm
Of all the Sonic bigs, Wilcox seems like the most capable of playing good defense. He is tall, strong, athletic as hell, reasonably quick for his size, and physically aggressive when on offense. So how come he can’t learn to stay between his man and the hoop, box out, and play some interior D???
November 29th, 2007 at 3:38 pm
Well, the other difference between Diop and Sene is that aside from length, Sene is a physical specimen. Fit, strong, fast. Diop has had weigh issues and he’s a bit sloth-like. Sene plays with a lot more energy.
Also, we can’t really get much worse than 2-14… I don’t see how we can ‘throw in the towel,’ because we’re already rock bottom. Towel was thrown long ago.
November 29th, 2007 at 3:39 pm
Sene
Green
Durant
West
Luke (when better)
I’d like to see that starting 5 rolled out for a few games.
Seriously, what could it hurt? At least all 5 of those guys give 100% effort the whole time they are out there. And I think they would surprise some folks.
November 29th, 2007 at 3:41 pm
TukwilaSonic -
Because he lacks toughness, intensity, awareness, purpose, desire, competitiveness, and any kind of a sense of urgency. He’s like Vin Baker with athleticism.
November 29th, 2007 at 3:43 pm
I actually think Sene has better offensive skills than Diop. That is based on observation alone, with no statistics to back it up.
But, the thing is, Sene really should not be asked to be an offensive force on the low block. Is Tyson Chandler an offensive force - no, he has few offensive skills. He is a put back artist. A very good one, but still that is all he is. Why ask more of Sene. Mutombo - same deal. Wallace - Ditto. Rodman - Ditto. Dampier - slightly more post moves, but not much. Diop - Ditto. Biedrins - Ditto.
For Sene, it is about defense. That will be about his competitiveness and work ethic and willingness to mix it up in the paint. If he has those 3 things - especially the 3rd - he will be effective. Why not throw him out there and see if he is willing to do what it takes.
November 29th, 2007 at 3:43 pm
“Also, we can’t really get much worse than 2-14… I don’t see how we can ‘throw in the towel,’ because we’re already rock bottom. Towel was thrown long ago. ”
Can’t disagree with you. Just a sad situation. All this losing will do damage to the development of our young players, and keep any free agents from even thinking of coming here. I didn’t expect much this year (25 wins was my prediction), but that looks waaaay optimistic at this point.
November 29th, 2007 at 3:46 pm
TukwilaSonic
Of all the Sonic bigs, Wilcox seems like the most capable of playing good defense. He is tall, strong, athletic as hell, reasonably quick for his size, and physically aggressive when on offense. So how come he can’t learn to stay between his man and the hoop, box out, and play some interior D???
Because he has low basketball IQ and no work ethic as veteran model for Durant to copy despite his athleticism.
That’s why when Wilcox in Clippers, he always stay behind Elton Brand who play both ends because Wilcox work ethic is questionable.
November 29th, 2007 at 3:47 pm
What does 2-14 project to?
11-71?
Ouch.
November 29th, 2007 at 3:48 pm
Wilcox does not come across as competitive or intense. That is his weakness - and something that he probably will never be. That is too bad, bacause the man has skills.
November 29th, 2007 at 3:50 pm
But let’s daydreaming Sonic’s final record to be 32-50 in case Durant begins to understand how to close a ball game with efficient shot percentage and aggresiveness to basket that causes other team to be in foul trouble.
November 29th, 2007 at 4:11 pm
That’s why when Wilcox in Clippers, he always stay behind Elton Brand who play both ends because Wilcox work ethic is questionable.
- Ummm he stayed behind Brand in LA because Brand is one of the top 5 PFs in the league when healthy….he might lack what you are claiming but that isn’t why he wasn’t starting n LA.
But, the thing is, Sene really should not be asked to be an offensive force on the low block. Is Tyson Chandler an offensive force - no, he has few offensive skills. He is a put back artist. A very good one, but still that is all he is. Why ask more of Sene. Mutombo - same deal. Wallace - Ditto. Rodman - Ditto. Dampier - slightly more post moves, but not much. Diop - Ditto. Biedrins - Ditto.
- I guess also based on my own personal visual judgment of his ability would show me that he does not have the ability to do any of the things you listed or be anywhere near the type of player worth even wasting minutes on. As Menace consistently say…for Sene to be a decent player would be to be completely different then every type of player who has ever played in the NBA.
November 29th, 2007 at 4:12 pm
Where the hell do you guys come up with “Wilcox lacks intensity and toughness and competitiveness.” Sure he has times where he lapses on defense and doesn’t understand where to be defensively in certain situations, but he’s as tenacious as anybody on offense.
He doesn’t play hard ALL THE TIME, but to say he lacks competitiveness is absurd. If he lacked competitiveness he wouldn’t be a winner in college, and he wouldn’t be a starting player in the NBA.
November 29th, 2007 at 4:12 pm
“I’m sure all the Sene backers were also big Jelani McCoy, Oydejdi (sp?) even Jerome James backer at some point…just don’t get why people fall in love with big guys who show very little potential. ”
Thanks for painting everyone with the same brush.
” I think the big issue for people who don’t like Sene is that we can’t understand why others can’t see that he is really just not a very good basketball player. Simply not able to play in the NBA based on his footwork and overall skills. ”
Right, because nobody ever gets better after their first 100 minutes. That’s what gets me.
The people that don’t like the pick are never going to change their minds about it and vice versa. This is half human nature and half just an immutable fact of basketball fandom. Certain people are just never going to like certain picks, myself included. Nobody is ever going to convince me that Vladimir Radmanovic was anything more than a complete and total waste of a pick considering the roster we had at the time. Ask Scott, Mr. Baker, Brian, anyone cause we debated that ad nauseam. That was the Luke vs Earl debate back in the day. And I was just as stubborn about it or more than everyone is about Sene today.
November 29th, 2007 at 4:14 pm
the thing is, Myk, how can you possibly have seen enough of him to make that judgment?
November 29th, 2007 at 4:14 pm
Can he work a little harder for defensive rebounds and blocks? Sure. But judging by reports of him working hard in the offseason, he doesn’t lack desire.
November 29th, 2007 at 4:19 pm
I think Wilcox is just a laid back big ol teddy bear and people mis-read that as lazy or lack of competitiveness.
November 29th, 2007 at 4:22 pm
I’d like to see Wilcox lay the lumber on someone every now and then. Or go up and dunk two handed in traffic. Or anticipate defensively… maybe draw an offensive foul? Something. He’s intense when his task is right in front of him… but he lacks intensity in terms of following the big picture of what’s happening on the court. He also lacks any kind of mean streak. At least Collison is willing to foul people hard and do the dirty work inside.
November 29th, 2007 at 4:23 pm
Ajw-what improvement does Wilcox bring after offseason? probably more consistent 15 footer jump shot.
But does that jumpshot is really what Wilcox’s weakness last season? No, he should solidify his basic basketball first such as boxing out and moving feet to defend not reaching hand to foul.
November 29th, 2007 at 4:25 pm
“People keep throwin Diop out there like “maybe one day he could be as good as Diop”…the sad thing is that Diop was light years ahead of him when he got into the league. After getting into the league it took him four years to even be way below average. Diop is NOT a good player folks…the only reason he is getting these accolades is because he was truly horrible when he came into the league and he was lucky enough to be OK for one playoff series… ”
I completely and totally disagree that Diop was light years ahead of Sene at first … the difference is that Diop actually got minutes to get better… I clearly remember watching him in his first coupe years and he was just as raw as Mo is now. Had no clue what to do, where to stand, anything.
People make picks all the time like Diop. The bottom line is that Cleveland was not the right place for Diop but surround him with more complementary talent in Dallas and suddenly he’s a useful role player. To say definitively that he’ll never ever be a capable NBA player is just retarded. And this is coming from someone who said the same thing about Jermaine O’Neal in his Portland days. Looking at that kid I thought he was the biggest bust of all time for someone coming out of HS. He could barely tie his shoes at first and sucked even in garbage time. He couldn’t earn minutes in front of the vet guys ahead of him and that’s a big reason why he didn’t get better for a while. Not saying that I expect Mo to be Jermaine O’Neal but the principle is the same … and anyone who wants to get cute and say that they knew O’Neal would break out after watching him for a year is full of crap. You didn’t. No one did. Even his agent was wondering if he was going to get a second contract for a while.
November 29th, 2007 at 4:27 pm
I watched the first half of the game yesterday. What I saw from Wilcox is someone who would call for the ball every time he went down the floor and when he didn’t get it, he started hanging his head.
He made no effort at all on defense either to help out or to alter shots or to box out. The most defense he did was a half-hearted swipe at the ball as the defender went by.
He’s kind of like Randy Moss in Minnesota. When he doesn’t get the ball, it takes him out of the game. However, Wilcox has a more negative effect because Moss wasn’t sulking on defense since NFL players don’t play defense. Wilcox has the tools to be a very good PF in the league. I’m just not sure he has the desire to play defense.
November 29th, 2007 at 4:29 pm
the thing is, Myk, how can you possibly have seen enough of him to make that judgment?
- If you watched me for 5 minutes you’d be able to say that I had no chance to play in the NBA…why would Mo Sene be any different?
November 29th, 2007 at 4:32 pm
I totally agree with you Jeremy.
Wilcox won’t be a pieces that we needed for Sonics to win championship. I prefer Jeff Green to take Wilcox’s spot because his tenacity in both ends though Green needs more experience.
DEFENSE win RINGS!!!!!!!
November 29th, 2007 at 4:33 pm
It’s amusing to see that six minutes of PT generates all of this discussion. We are a bored lot, aren’t we?
Only 12,398 on hand to see Rashard’s homecoming… I guess we didn’t love him enough.
November 29th, 2007 at 4:38 pm
Dick,
Good call.
Here are the top 5 discussions here:
5. Damian is a ballhog
4. Derrick Rose rulez!!! (w00t)
3. Swift is the future.
2. Sene is a bum/Sene is awesome.
1. Luke vs. Earl
November 29th, 2007 at 4:39 pm
BTW, #4 was a jab at the fanboys.
November 29th, 2007 at 4:41 pm
If you watched me for 5 minutes you’d be able to say that I had no chance to play in the NBA…why would Mo Sene be any different?
I don’t want to make assumptions, but something tells me you’re probably not 7 feet tall with the reach of a giant squid.
November 29th, 2007 at 4:47 pm
I agree with you about developing a player taking time steve.
We don’t even know what sene can do yet, but we have him and he is freakishly long, why not see what we have?
November 29th, 2007 at 4:51 pm
#1 damien is a ballhog
November 29th, 2007 at 4:51 pm
12,398 seems pretty generous considering what it looked like on TV. To me it looked like a ghost town.
I tried to explain to my wife why nobody was there. It seemed crazy actually hearing the words out loud: “No one is there because the team really sucks” Then later she asked me if PJ is a good coach. Again it was surreal hearing the words aloud:” Pj is not a good coach, just a cheap coach to bridge the gap until the owner can move the team to OKC.” It is so different hearing this stuff outloud verses when it is typed out on a screen.
November 29th, 2007 at 4:54 pm
anyone try moving down to the close in seats since there are so many empty ones? are the ushers pretty lax about that this year?
November 29th, 2007 at 4:55 pm
I couldn’t watch the game because it wasn’t broadcast on nbalp.
I’m glad I missed it, listening to the 1st half was bad enough.
November 29th, 2007 at 5:01 pm
I agree with montanasupesfan..Wilkins is a ball hog and holds the ball causing the offense to stop. He also thinks he is the man now on offense and his defense is slacking off.
November 29th, 2007 at 5:11 pm
“#1 damien is a ballhog” {montanasupesfan}
Damien Wilkins (Field-Goal Percentage: 45.5%; Effective Field-Goal Percentage: 51.6%; True Shooting Percentage: 55.8%) is a more efficient scorer than Kevin Durant (Field-Goal Percentage: 39.3%; Effective Field-Goal Percentage: 42.9%; True Shooting Percentage: 49.1%). Furthermore, Wilkins (Assists Per 48 Minutes: 3.7; Assists Per Turnover: 1.74; Usage Rate: 18.1) is statistically less of a ball-hog than Durant (Assists Per 48 Minutes: 3.0; Assists Per Turnover: 0.67; Usage Rate: 26.5).
Although I’m not a fan of Wilkins — as I’d like to package Earl Watson and him to the Miami Heat for Jason Williams — it doesn’t negate the fact that he’s been more efficient than Durant thus far this season.
November 29th, 2007 at 5:16 pm
“I don’t want to make assumptions, but something tells me you’re probably not 7 feet tall with the reach of a giant squid. ”
LOL! great line.
“anyone try moving down to the close in seats since there are so many empty ones? are the ushers pretty lax about that this year? ”
Just walk in like you own the place. I’ve found that 95% of the time nobody will say anything to you unless you get caught in the wrong seat or have the “I shouldn’t be doing this” look on your face.
November 29th, 2007 at 5:16 pm
We have seen Jeff Green posterized dunks in some guys; whom Kevin Durant first will posterize dunk on? Any guess????
November 29th, 2007 at 5:23 pm
“Although I’m not a fan of Wilkins — as I’d like to package Earl Watson and him to the Miami Heat for Jason Williams — it doesn’t negate the fact that he’s been more efficient than Durant thus far this season. ”
Except the discussion was about ballhogging, not efficiency. You can be a ballhog and still be an efficient player. See Bryant, Kobe.
To be fair, I’m not sure there is a way to prove ballhoggery via statistical analysis.
Possession Usage Rate maybe.
November 29th, 2007 at 5:48 pm
After reading the game threads so far this season, it should probably be:
#1 Dammit, Earl, pass the fricking ball! Don’t shoot! You’re a point guard!
#2 Earl vs. Luke.
November 29th, 2007 at 5:51 pm
Steve said: ““I’m sure all the Sene backers were also big Jelani McCoy, Oydejdi (sp?) even Jerome James backer at some point…just don’t get why people fall in love with big guys who show very little potential. ”
Thanks for painting everyone with the same brush.”
Completely and totally agree, Steve.
I laughed my head off when the Knicks were silly enough to sign Big Snacks to that contract. I don’t miss him.
If they did the same with Sene, I don’t think it would be the same emotions. Probably a mixture of sadness at Sene’s leaving, and bewilderment at what goes on in Isaiah’s head (which happens a lot, I find).
November 29th, 2007 at 5:53 pm
Jesus AK, why do you always bring Durant into a discussion even when he wasn’t mentioned with Wilkins. It’s almost as annoying as the Luke vs. Earl and Wally World’s “Wally must get minutes” rants.
It just sounds like you hate the kid or something.
November 29th, 2007 at 6:02 pm
Look, there’s no doubt Sene provides amusement everytime he checks into a ballgame. His game on the offense end is downright sad, yet hilarious at the same time. Everytime he steps into the free throw line for two, I’m always anticipating him to airball one of them.
The kid just needs to play in the minor leagues, get the experience and feel for the game. The coaches then need to tell him to sleep with a basketball in his hands every single night. Then we’ll see what happens from there. But right now, he doesn’t deserve minutes over Thomas and Collison.
November 29th, 2007 at 6:08 pm
ajw - nobody wants to give him minutes of Thomas and Collison. But Collison is out, Thomas is limited by a hamstring.
ALL I WANT is for Sene to get any minutes that would otherwise go to Petro. Is that okay with you?
November 29th, 2007 at 6:12 pm
Well good thing’s Collison out for a few games so he can have the opportunity for him to get some experienece
November 29th, 2007 at 6:15 pm
“Except the discussion was about ballhogging, not efficiency. You can be a ballhog and still be an efficient player. See Bryant, Kobe.
To be fair, I’m not sure there is a way to prove ballhoggery via statistical analysis.
Possession Usage Rate maybe.” {Steve}
Usage Rate — which is {[Field-Goal Attempts + (Free-Throw Attempts x 0.44) + (Assist Ratio* x 0.33) + Turnover Ratio**] x 40 x League Pace} / (Minutes x Team Pace) — is a stat that’s been created by John Hollinger to measure the selfishness of a given player.
*Assist Ratio = (Assists x 100) / [Field-Goal Attempts + (Free-Throw Attempts x 0.44) + Assists + Turnovers]
**Turnover Ratio = (Turnovers x 100) / [Field-Goal Attempts + (Free-Throw Attempts x 0.44) + Assists + Turnovers]
Kobe Bryant (True Shooting Percentage: 58.1% & Usage Rate: 30.0) and Emanual Ginobili (True Shooting Percentage: 62.9% & Usage Rate: 27.6) are efficient ball-hogs, while Zach Randolph (True Shooting Percentage: 47.4% & Usage Rate: 28.5) and Kevin Durant (True Shooting Percentage: 49.1% & Usage Rate: 26.5) are inefficient ball-hogs.
November 29th, 2007 at 6:24 pm
“Jesus AK, why do you always bring Durant into a discussion even when he wasn’t mentioned with Wilkins. It’s almost as annoying as the Luke vs. Earl and Wally World’s “Wally must get minutes” rants.
It just sounds like you hate the kid or something.” {ajw}
No, I don’t hate Kevin Durant. I, however, detest it whenever folks seemingly think that Durant is an infallible deity who isn’t subject to any criticism. That’s what bothers me.
November 29th, 2007 at 7:04 pm
“ALL I WANT is for Sene to get any minutes that would otherwise go to Petro.” {Big Worm}
Johan Petro (a.k.a., Brad Sellers redux) should get playing time over Mouhamed Sene.
November 29th, 2007 at 7:05 pm
While I’m not a fan of Sene’s by any stretch of the imagination and were one of those who said “huh?” when they picked him, I’m wiling to go with the ups and downs as long as his rookie contract goes. It’s after that when the tough decision needs to be made.
I say since this is a losing team anyways give him 8- 10 minutes against the other teams second unit and see what happens. Petro has had his chance in a few games.
November 29th, 2007 at 7:10 pm
As much as I have bashed Sene, I would rather see him in the game than Petro. At least Sene tries hard and gives us some semblance of a defensive presence. Petro is a classic waste of a body.
November 29th, 2007 at 8:06 pm
I was not a fan of drafting Sene, but he’s grown on me. Everytime he comes into the game I want to watch more because he is so unpredictable. Will he really try a reverse layup? It’s so puzzlingly funny to watch him play offense and he has times on defense where he reaches up and tips a ball or blocks a shot.
The main reason I like him is that he is playing for the team and not for himself. Anytime the slightest good thing happens for the Sonics, Sene is out there clapping obnoxiously loud. When he’s clapping you can really see his love of the game and his desire for the sonics so win, as opposed to some of the other players who just seem to be playing to make themselves appear better.
November 29th, 2007 at 8:18 pm
Holy moley are the Celtics smoking the Knicks tonight or what?
82-41 at three quarter time!
When do we play the Knicks?
November 29th, 2007 at 10:13 pm
after watching the knics get killed by the celtics I don’t feel bad that the supes have the worst record in the nba..lol..
November 29th, 2007 at 10:30 pm
“Who was left that could have been drafted instead of Sene? Ronnie Brewer? JJ Redick? Quincy Douby? I think any of those players that were left on the board would have had equal results thus far without the upside of Sene.”
Ronnie Brewer starts for a western conference contender. In his second year he is putting up 13 ppg. Which immediately eclipses anything that Sene has ever done in his entire life in terms of basketball.
I’m the biggest Sene hater in the world. Go ahead and give him Petros minutes. Its trading poop for crap. But at least the crap has a huge potential for unintentional comedy.
“I completely and totally disagree that Diop was light years ahead of Sene at first … the difference is that Diop actually got minutes to get better… I clearly remember watching him in his first coupe years and he was just as raw as Mo is now. Had no clue what to do, where to stand, anything.”
Diop averaged 14.6 points, 13.2 rebounds, and 8.0 blocks during his senior high school season, earning the USA Today Virginia Player of the Year title and leading Oak Hill Academy to a #1 nation ranking. He proved he could play at some level albeit high school. Sene has never proven anything. Huge difference IMO.
November 29th, 2007 at 10:42 pm
Diop makes $2.1 million a year. Thats pretty much the same we pay for Sene. How many years has he played again? Diop plays on a good team and was signed for potential and big man value alone. Considering they don’t have a problem with cash or paying players……..don’t you think a deep pocket team like the Mavs would pay more for a better player? Diop is in a contract year. Ever hear any talk of an extension? Wouldn’t surprise me if they let him go after the year. Its not like his upside is high or he has a bright future. Diop played summer league this year. How many years has he been in the L?
“Someday he could be Diop”. Is that an endorsement? Are other GMs out there saying that about Sene. Hell no. Why would they make a comparison of a completely raw player to a bargain basement center in the NBA. Think about it.
November 29th, 2007 at 10:52 pm
“And this is coming from someone who said the same thing about Jermaine O’Neal in his Portland days. Looking at that kid I thought he was the biggest bust of all time for someone coming out of HS. He could barely tie his shoes at first and sucked even in garbage time”
JO, also a McDonalds All American, is a horrible comparison. Even though he never played in Portland, in 10 minutes a game averaged 4 and 3 as a rookie. Sene’s career high average for a season, over his entire life is 3.1 points and 4.1 rebounds in second tier Belgium league.
JO proved at some level he could play. Sene has had a handful of decent games in the span of his lifetime thus far. Big big difference.
November 29th, 2007 at 10:53 pm
Menace, we’re not saying Sene is going to turn in to Hakeem Olajuwon… we just want him to get Johan Petro’s minutes this season so we can see what he can do. No need to get upset about that.
November 29th, 2007 at 10:53 pm
Jay said: “after watching the knics get killed by the celtics I don’t feel bad that the supes have the worst record in the nba..lol..”
Yep, indeed! I think from hereon in, we need to put the following disclaimer with the box score after a loss:
“Remember, it could be worse. You could have Isaiah Thomas as your coach and GM.”
November 29th, 2007 at 11:20 pm
Well here’s another consolation prize. Two days after beating the Sonics by seven points the Lakers blew away the Denver Nuggets 127 to 99 at the Staples Center.
The Sonics have held their own against some good teams lately. They better damn well beat Indiana tomorrow.
November 29th, 2007 at 11:46 pm
this team has talent. there record doesn’t show that but the talent is there. I remember how bad the bulls were when the jordan era was over. they rebuilt and now there one of the best teams in the east. its real hard to watch the losing but in the end this team will be back to elite teams in the west again.
November 30th, 2007 at 12:03 am
Jay, the Bulls are one of the worst teams in the Eastern Conference. They have a great defense but you cannot win without scoring and hitting the three pointer. Chicago’s plan to build around Hinrich, Gordon, Deng, and Wallace has blown up in their faces. Eddy Curry and Tyson Chandler may have gotten the last laugh.
November 30th, 2007 at 12:11 am
I think it is safe to add George Karl’s name to the coaching hotseat. With the exception of the 2000-2001 Bucks, I believe he has failed to take a team past the first round of the NBA playoffs in his post-Sonic coaching career. His record for the last three playoffs runs for the Nuggets is 3-12. If Denver fails once again to advance past the first round, I would not surprised if George faces the same fate as Jeff Van Gundy faced after the Jazz dispatched his Rockets in the 2007 playoffs. I used to think George was a great coach too.
November 30th, 2007 at 12:53 am
Sene the next Diop?
Dare to dream.
November 30th, 2007 at 1:08 am
alex, I agree this year is a rough year for the bulls but this is the same team that swept the heat last year in the playoffs and played tough against a really good pistons team. what I met about the bulls comparison is that they started out with a real young team with kirk, gordon and deng and turn it around to become and elite team in the east. I’m just hoping that the supes can turn it around like the bulls did. I still think by the end of this year the bulls will be a playoff team.
November 30th, 2007 at 1:21 am
Wow Jay those are the same thoughts I had except I’m hoping it won’t take as long. It looks like we’ll be in good position to add some quality players considering that we’ll more than likely have a good position in the draft and have some money to spend after WallyZ and Thomas’ contracts are up.
Unloading one of our PF’s, preferably Wilcox since Collison would be a good bench player, should be looked at this offseason.
As for our PG hole, it probably won’t take anymore than an average player who can make open jumpers to play that spot if we can get an elite ball-dominant SG in the draft such as Mayo or Gordon. By that time, we’ll be looking like the baby Bulls from the last 2-3 years.
November 30th, 2007 at 7:15 am
“When do we play the Knicks”
Wednesday the 12th. I’ll be there!
November 30th, 2007 at 9:14 am
“They have a great defense but you cannot win without scoring and hitting the three pointer” (Alex Chan)
Alex, I disagree with this premise on face value, but I will run a 3 year experiment today to see how strongly PPG and 3 PT % correlate to wins. I’ll let you know how it turns out.
November 30th, 2007 at 9:30 am
Sene Rulz!
November 30th, 2007 at 9:48 am
The NBA has named a relocation committee to look at the Sonics possible move to OKC.
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/basketball/341741_arena30.html
November 30th, 2007 at 9:57 am
“Diop averaged 14.6 points, 13.2 rebounds, and 8.0 blocks during his senior high school season, earning the USA Today Virginia Player of the Year title and leading Oak Hill Academy to a #1 nation ranking. He proved he could play at some level albeit high school. Sene has never proven anything. Huge difference IMO. ”
Nobody cares what he did at the high school level. Put Sene in that group and he’d do the same thing.
November 30th, 2007 at 10:40 am
“Nobody cares what he did at the high school level. Put Sene in that group and he’d do the same thing.”
Especially since everything but the stats is bunk for better or worse. Diop wasn’t the MVP of his own team that year, so I find it hard to believe he was the National POY.
Diop had it rough in High School, rebounding for Carmello Anthony and being his weakside defender.
November 30th, 2007 at 10:41 am
Gee, I wonder which way Clays good buddy Holt will vote?
I wonder how easy it was for David Stern to appoint Bennetts freinds to the relocation committee.
They dont even want to appear impartial.
November 30th, 2007 at 10:50 am
“Gee, I wonder which way Clays good buddy Holt will vote?
I wonder how easy it was for David Stern to appoint Bennetts freinds to the relocation committee.
They dont even want to appear impartial.”
It doesn’t matter. They couldn’t buy their way out of the lease so they’re stuck here no matter what the committee says.
November 30th, 2007 at 10:57 am
The people that don’t like the pick are never going to change their minds about it and vice versa. This is half human nature and half just an immutable fact of basketball fandom.
- I don’t get this…you really think that if Sene comes out and starts averaging 10ppg, 8rpg and 2bpg (and again…if you aren’t expecting at least these MINIMAL numbers from your 10th pick then I just don’t get it) do you really think that people won’t be supportive of Sene? Its only a one way streat in this debate…people who support the pick will NEVER admit it was the wrong pick.
I don’t want to make assumptions, but something tells me you’re probably not 7 feet tall with the reach of a giant squid.
- This of course is excellent logic…I mean all 7′ tall people should be in the NBA correct? Sadly, I knew this was going to be the response…
November 30th, 2007 at 10:59 am
The the one thing I find funny about the Sene/Petro/Swift debate. All the supporters think that the people who have the nerve to question the picks somehow want these guys to fail. Trust me I would LOVE for me to be completely wrong and all three of them to turn into great players. It just isn’t going to happen…it is the supporters who have the much harder time looking at things through an objective prism…
November 30th, 2007 at 11:42 am
The “objective prism” I use for Sene is his NBDL stats - which were pretty good for one of the youngest guys in the league. A 54% TS% (including a 59% free throw %), a 13/40 minutes rebound rate (tops in the league - or maybe second), a 3/40 minutes block rate. And, those stats in my view are clouded by his weak start. Take out his first game or so and they look even better. (and remember, for all its weaknesses, the NBLD is way better than any college conference - so those stats would look much better in the ACC or PAC-10).
These #’s tell me that he is worth a shot. I am saying play him for 20-25 minutes a night for 60 games. See if he shows anything. If he really craps out, then so be it, but until then, the Sonics will never know. It is the Sene detractors who are closed minded about the possibility that he can pan out. I don’t think any Sene supporters want to give him anything but a chance. And could there be a more perfect year to do it than this year?
I do not see the point of playing Kurt Thomas. Yes, he is a very good defender. But who cares, he is gone after this year and besides, playing him has not led to any wins really. So, what is the point.
November 30th, 2007 at 11:44 am
Well, in some ways I tried to justify the pick after it was made. I was certainly a little intrigued by the sound of “longest arms in NBA ever”. Then I watched him play and well, he looks like he’s playing with rollerskates on. Of course, he also looks like a terrible rollerskater. He opitomizes the fact that shot blocking and solid man-to-man defense are two very independent skills.
November 30th, 2007 at 12:03 pm
“I don’t get this…you really think that if Sene comes out and starts averaging 10ppg, 8rpg and 2bpg (and again…if you aren’t expecting at least these MINIMAL numbers from your 10th pick then I just don’t get it) do you really think that people won’t be supportive of Sene? Its only a one way streat in this debate…people who support the pick will NEVER admit it was the wrong pick.”
Come on Myk. A one way street? It’s more about people like you and AK making these all encompassing definitive judgements about guys like Durant and Sene after 100 minutes or 20 games of their career, and then try to pooh-pooh the people that say we haven’t seen enough yet.
All I can say is a lot of people wrote Tyson Chandler off after his first couple years in the league making these BS pronouncements about what he could and couldn’t do…they look pretty stupid now. The bottom line is neither you nor I nor AK nor anyone else really knows what these guys are going to look like in year 5 of their careers. If you want to pass final judgment on Sene or Durant, be my guest…just don’t act all surprised or miffed when people question that, because players can surprise you. All the time.
November 30th, 2007 at 12:04 pm
“These #’s tell me that he is worth a shot. I am saying play him for 20-25 minutes a night for 60 games.”
If you give a player with that type of experience and ability a “shot” like that, how do you explain that to the rest of the team? Give the rawest, worst player on the team 20-25 minutes a game just for the hell of it? No way, I think ten minutes a game is pushing it at this point.
“See if he shows anything. If he really craps out, then so be it, but until then, the Sonics will never know.”
Maybe you’ll never know, but you also aren’t watching this guy practice with the team every day. If he deserved more minutes he’d be getting them, espescially this season, espescially with this young team. PJ may not be the best coach, but he’s not blind.
“I do not see the point of playing Kurt Thomas. Yes, he is a very good defender. But who cares, he is gone after this year and besides, playing him has not led to any wins really. So, what is the point.”
Kurt Thomas is by far the most consistent player we have on the roster and he brings a very needed element of stability to the team when he’s on the floor. These young guys need someone to show them how it’s done, and apprently that’s not PJ at this point. Look at how often young teams with no veteran presence have developed. It’s a mess. Having Thomas on the floor doing the right things shows our young bigs what it takes to earn minutes, shows them how to do what the coach wants and the team needs.
November 30th, 2007 at 12:08 pm
“Come on Myk. A one way street? It’s more about people like you and AK making these all encompassing definitive judgements about guys like Durant and Sene after 100 minutes or 20 games of their career, and then try to pooh-pooh the people that say we haven’t seen enough yet.”
I don’t think there’s anything wrong with you saying “we haven’t seen enough of him yet”. I do think it’s pretty ridiculous that some people expect PJ to be giving him significant minutes at this point.
November 30th, 2007 at 12:17 pm
Coaches as a group are risk averse. There is a terribly strong tendency to go “by the book.” Playing Sene will entail the risk of looking stupid - I doubt PJ would do that. I pretty sure he has referred to himself as “old school” - which means “I go by the book rather than thinking.”
Playing him would not be for the hell of it, it would be to give him time on the floor - you know, kinda like how Durant is used at the moment when he should really be the last SF/SG off the bench behind Wilkins, Gelabale, Szerbiak?, Green and West. After all, what message is PJ sending throwing out Durant when he is clearly the weakest link on the team this year?
November 30th, 2007 at 12:17 pm
Kurt Thomas is by far the most consistent player we have on the roster and he brings a very needed element of stability to the team when he’s on the floor. These young guys need someone to show them how it’s done, and apprently that’s not PJ at this point. Look at how often young teams with no veteran presence have developed. It’s a mess. Having Thomas on the floor doing the right things shows our young bigs what it takes to earn minutes, shows them how to do what the coach wants and the team needs.
I don’t get how this basic concept of individual and team development gets lost on so many.
November 30th, 2007 at 12:27 pm
“If you give a player with that type of experience and ability a “shot” like that, how do you explain that to the rest of the team? Give the rawest, worst player on the team 20-25 minutes a game just for the hell of it? No way, I think ten minutes a game is pushing it at this point.”
I agree with that …20 MPG is a bit much to expect.
“Look at how often young teams with no veteran presence have developed. It’s a mess.”
Yeah, there’s also young teams with veteran presence that still have messy development process… this team wasn’t a great deal better under the veteran leadership of Allen & Lewis.
Kurt Thomas is The Man. If Chris Wilcox had KTs understanding of the game he’d be one of the ten best forwards in the league.
November 30th, 2007 at 12:28 pm
“which means “I go by the book rather than thinking.”
Or it could mean that you and PJ don’t aggree on what should be done. I think that’d be a more reasonable way to look at it seeming you’re not a pro coach.
And comparing the development of Kevin Durant and Jeff Green to Sene is…not a good way to establish credibility.
November 30th, 2007 at 12:29 pm
“Kurt Thomas is by far the most consistent player we have on the roster and he brings a very needed element of stability to the team when he’s on the floor. These young guys need someone to show them how it’s done, and apprently that’s not PJ at this point. Look at how often young teams with no veteran presence have developed. It’s a mess. Having Thomas on the floor doing the right things shows our young bigs what it takes to earn minutes, shows them how to do what the coach wants and the team needs.”
I think you could actually use this exact argument to say its what helps Green and Durant develop. Look I’m as big of a lets let the young guys play guy that you’ll find but I don’t want to do it at the expense of Thomas or Wally Z, Durant and Green need those guys out there wth them almost as extra coaches on the court.
What I’m more in favor of is getting Mo (then Robert) some extra run at the expense of getting Petro those same minutes, just to see what he can do (how he’s recovering) in game situations.
Plan A and B this year have to be developing KD and JG, you play the guys most often that help them develop IMO.
November 30th, 2007 at 12:31 pm
“Yeah, there’s also young teams with veteran presence that still have messy development process…”
That’s very true, veterans can include guys like Thomas and also guys like Marbury.
November 30th, 2007 at 1:25 pm
The “objective prism” I use for Sene is his NBDL stats - which were pretty good for one of the youngest guys in the league. A 54% TS% (including a 59% free throw %), a 13/40 minutes rebound rate (tops in the league - or maybe second), a 3/40 minutes block rate. And, those stats in my view are clouded by his weak start. Take out his first game or so and they look even better. (and remember, for all its weaknesses, the NBLD is way better than any college conference - so those stats would look much better in the ACC or PAC-10).
- Please name me one player that has succeeded in the NBDL and went onto success in the NBA. At this point the NBDL is basically pointless…being able to perform at the NBDL level has little to no correlation to performance in the NBA. Isn’t this why Andre Brown (that was his name, right?) isn’t with the team this year. His NBDL stats killed Sene and he isn’t on the team anymore.
Come on Myk. A one way street? It’s more about people like you and AK making these all encompassing definitive judgements about guys like Durant and Sene after 100 minutes or 20 games of their career, and then try to pooh-pooh the people that say we haven’t seen enough yet.
- AK and my statements (his regarding Durant and mine regarding Sene) are in very little ways similar. AKs statements are speaking out conventional wisdom of all experts and basketball fans…they are completely counter to 95% of the people who watch Durant’s game. Mine on Sene are not…
All I can say is a lot of people wrote Tyson Chandler off after his first couple years in the league making these BS pronouncements about what he could and couldn’t do…they look pretty stupid now. The bottom line is neither you nor I nor AK nor anyone else really knows what these guys are going to look like in year 5 of their careers. If you want to pass final judgment on Sene or Durant, be my guest…just don’t act all surprised or miffed when people question that, because players can surprise you. All the time.
- I’ve always found the Eddy Curry/Tyson Chandler hate amusing. People did write them off…those people were stupid. Take a look at their stats. For all of Chandler’s issues early in his career he has only had one year where his PER wasn’t close to 15. Curry’s lowest PER ever was 14.87 (so he’s basically been league average or better his entire career).
Sene isn’t even in the same league as either of these guys…but it goes to show how people’s impression can color things.
November 30th, 2007 at 1:39 pm
“I’ve always found the Eddy Curry/Tyson Chandler hate amusing. People did write them off…those people were stupid. Take a look at their stats. For all of Chandler’s issues early in his career he has only had one year where his PER wasn’t close to 15. Curry’s lowest PER ever was 14.87 (so he’s basically been league average or better his entire career).”
Kinda shows the limitations of PER doesn’t it? At no point in his career has Eddy Curry ever been average or better.
November 30th, 2007 at 2:02 pm
Considering the current crop of starting centers around the league, i’d say Curry is at least average or better, and I don’t mean that to be a compliment towards Curry.
November 30th, 2007 at 2:16 pm
You’ve gotta love a guy whose assists + steals + blocks aren’t even HALF of his turnovers.
That doesn’t even truly delve into his defensive inability.
November 30th, 2007 at 2:19 pm
He doesn’t look so hot on a fantasy roster, that’s for sure.
November 30th, 2007 at 2:25 pm
Considering the current crop of starting centers around the league, i’d say Curry is at least average or better, and I don’t mean that to be a compliment towards Curry
- Aint that the truth…Curry isn’t no superstar…but Sene isn’t even 1/3rd the player (pun almost intended) than he is…
November 30th, 2007 at 2:39 pm
PER does reward scorers too much.
PER comparisons better among players of similar roles than between guys with very different roles.
On PER Curry’s scoring cancels out a lot of his weakness (rebounding, turnovers, FT%, no passing) and does make him appear near average compared to a fairly weak group of centers. And throw in defense and he has been undesirable to many.
His team defense looks somewhat better by the numbers this year and his individual defense looks average. His personal turnovers are down. Team turnovers forced are low with him though.
Isnt getting to line as much.
As a #3 scorer on a good team he might be ok. As a #1 or #2 you arent going anywhere above mediocre I dont believe.
November 30th, 2007 at 3:34 pm
Diop #1 in league on points allowed on/off comparison… among those having played 200+ minutes. But Sene’s on/off is actually higher, though is microsopic sample size this year. Last season in 8 times the minutes (still ridiculously small) the team gave up more minutes on better better shooting with him on compared to off. What kind of defensive impact he might have with playing time this year, a year or 3 years down the road is going to have to be based on judgment. There arent enough stats to really use them on him yet.
November 30th, 2007 at 3:39 pm
On team points allowed player on/off comparison with enough minutes- Okafor 5th, Chandler 12th. Dalambert a modest impact but not anywhere near the leaders.
November 30th, 2007 at 3:47 pm
Petro has a near 20 reduction in opponent scoring on vs off right now too though his 129 minutes is a small sample size too (against a lot of subs or in garbage time perhaps). But again it wasnt there last year as opponent points and FG% were both up with him on vs off. Got to prove defense for a full seasonto buy into it.
In future I’ll probably try harder to let trends go longer before commenting on them. Even if it is done, it is fair to take them with a full shaker of salt.
November 30th, 2007 at 3:55 pm
The New York Knicks are crap mostly ’cause of the fat, sluggish Eddy Curry taking up precious space and Zach Randolph being an inefficient ballhog. I wouldn’t want either one of those bums on the Seattle Supersonics under any circumstance.
As I mentioned yesterday, efficient ballhogs — such as LeBrong James (True Shooting Percentage: 57.1% & Usage Rate: 32.8), Kobe Bryant (True Shooting Percentage: 58.2% & Usage Rate: 30.0), and Emanuel Ginobili (True Shooting Percentage: 62.9% & Usage Rate: 27.6) — have the power to carry a team; however, high volume chuckers, à la Randolph (True Shooting Percentage: 45.9% & Usage Rate: 28.3) and the Supersonics’ own Kevin Durant (True Shooting Percentage: 49.1% & Usage Rate: 26.5), can cripple a ballclub.
November 30th, 2007 at 6:25 pm
With Sene we aren’t talking about a player who had the same success or skill as a Tyson Chandler, Curry, or even Diop at this time. We are talking about one of, if not the, rawest player ever to be drafted into this league.
“Maybe you’ll never know, but you also aren’t watching this guy practice with the team every day. If he deserved more minutes he’d be getting them, espescially this season, espescially with this young team.”
Excellent point. PJ has said it himself that he will make a really nice play, in practice, immediately followed by a bonehead move that makes you think its his first time playing. If he can’t do it in practice……what makes you think he can do it in a game?
Its like….what the hell just give him minutes for the hell of it?
November 30th, 2007 at 6:37 pm
Diop sucks.
By saying that Sene with hard work can someday be like him is like saying if that Chris King or Gerald Paddio could have became Brad Sellers. Sweet.
November 30th, 2007 at 6:58 pm
“Diop sucks.”
How exactly are you measuring it? His team is better offensively when he’s on the court, better defensively (by such a large margin it borders on silly) when he’s on the court.
Or is this another one of your judgments which can’t be actually measured?
November 30th, 2007 at 7:23 pm
Why does he only get paid $2 million a year (same as Sene). 7 year veteran center who makes $2 million. Why did he play summer league in his 7th year?
Career numbers 2 ppg 4 rpg .410 fg% for an 8th overall pick.
“His team is better offensively when he’s on the court, better defensively (by such a large margin it borders on silly) when he’s on the court.”
Put him on the Sonics……would we get the same results? Pretty sure Josh Howard, Devin Harris, Dirk, and Jet have more of an impact. Just because he is on a good team…..doesn’t make him good.
Do you honestly think he is a good NBA center?
November 30th, 2007 at 7:43 pm
Career high scoring game. 10 pts.
November 30th, 2007 at 8:09 pm
“Why does he only get paid $2 million a year (same as Sene).”
Kwame gets paid 9 and he legitimately sucks. Salary has nothing to do with how ‘good’ someone is.
“Why did he play summer league in his 7th year?”
They asked him to? I have no idea, but that doesn’t mean he sucks.
“Pretty sure Josh Howard, Devin Harris, Dirk, and Jet have more of an impact.”
Offensively for Dirk and Jet for sure, Howards a solid player and Harris is a good defender. Defensively they’re a 15 point per 100 possession team better when he’s out there than when he’s not. That’s just flat out dramatic. He definately makes the Mavs a better team.
“Do you honestly think he is a good NBA center?”
Absolutely, I’d rather have him than Eddy Curry.
November 30th, 2007 at 8:26 pm
“Kwame gets paid 9 and he legitimately sucks. Salary has nothing to do with how ‘good’ someone is.”
I agree. So does Jerome James who makes $6 mm. But big men get paid if they can walk and chew gum. Diop got $2 mm. Either his agent sucks or he does.
November 30th, 2007 at 8:27 pm
Or both.
November 30th, 2007 at 8:36 pm
“But big men get paid if they can walk and chew gum. Diop got $2 mm. Either his agent sucks or he does.”
Let’s see what he gets next time around. It’s not like he signed this deal this off-season, he’s in the last year of a three year contract.
My guess, he’ll make more than Jerome James.
November 30th, 2007 at 8:38 pm
I’d be shocked if that happened.
November 30th, 2007 at 9:12 pm
Last year with Cavs 65% of Diop’s shots were jumpshots and he hit 13% FG. Dallas immediately choipped that in half and then did it agin so now they have him taking just 15% jumpshots. His defensive impact has already pretty good with Cavs. Dallas bought low at age 23, reformed his habits, fit him into a role, and have his bird rights to compensate him more next time. That last part was probably a “hope” of Diop and his agent.
November 30th, 2007 at 9:21 pm
Different player, not same type but wanted to check Collison. Find that his jumper FG% is up to 37%, career best, ahead of first season and way ahead of last season. Thru his dip Collison has been pretty steady at taking 40% of his shots as jumpers. Taking 7 shots a game that means 3 jumpers per game. I guess we can live with that but 1 less might not be a bad idea. (Diop takes a jumper every other game now.)
March 23rd, 2008 at 12:11 pm
Jessie
Easy to understand site.Spot on! Great Job!!
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