12/5/07 Box Score: Sonics 95 Clippers 88
Posted on Thursday, December 6th, 2007 at 12:05 am by Big Chris
Welcome back Nick Collison! 18 points and 17 rebounds is a beast of a night! It does worry me when Damien Wilkins leads the team in shot attempts, but tonight that didn’t bite us. With this solid effort the Supersonics have won 2 of their last 3 games. Wally Szcerbiak also had a nice night with 17 points on 6 of 8 shooting. Kevin Durant co-led the Supersonics in scoring with 18 points and also had 7 rebounds.
I would also like to officially go on record and thank Chris Kamen for cutting his hair.
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| LA Clippers | ||||||||||||
| Name | Min | FG | 3Pt | FT | Off | Reb | Ast | TO | Stl | Blk | PF | Pts |
| T. Thomas | 35 | 2-14 | 1-3 | 2-2 | 3 | 7 | 2 | 2 | 2 | 0 | 3 | 7 |
| C. Maggette | 36 | 7-17 | 1-4 | 8-9 | 1 | 4 | 0 | 4 | 0 | 0 | 2 | 23 |
| C. Kaman | 42 | 7-16 | 0-0 | 5-7 | 2 | 14 | 5 | 4 | 0 | 5 | 2 | 19 |
| Q. Ross | 22 | 2-4 | 0-0 | 4-4 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 3 | 3 | 8 |
| B. Knight | 28 | 3-5 | 0-0 | 4-4 | 0 | 4 | 7 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 10 |
| C. Mobley | 28 | 2-10 | 1-3 | 3-4 | 1 | 4 | 3 | 0 | 2 | 0 | 4 | 8 |
| A. Thornton | 14 | 2-5 | 0-1 | 2-2 | 0 | 3 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 6 |
| R. Patterson | 4 | 0-1 | 0-0 | 0-0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 0 |
| D. Dickau | 19 | 2-6 | 1-2 | 0-0 | 0 | 1 | 2 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 5 |
| A. Williams | 3 | 0-0 | 0-0 | 0-0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 2 | 0 |
| P. Davis | 3 | 0-0 | 0-0 | 2-2 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 2 |
| E. Brand | DNP - Coach’s Decision | |||||||||||
| S. Cassell | DNP - Coach’s Decision | |||||||||||
| S. Livingston | DNP - Coach’s Decision | |||||||||||
| J. Powell | DNP - Coach’s Decision | |||||||||||
| Totals | 234 | 27-78 | 4-13 | 30-34 | 7 | 39 | 21 | 14 | 7 | 9 | 20 | 88 |
| Percentages: | .346 | .308 | .882 | Team Rebounds: 7 |
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| Seattle | ||||||||||||
| Name | Min | FG | 3Pt | FT | Off | Reb | Ast | TO | Stl | Blk | PF | Pts |
| D. Wilkins | 30 | 7-14 | 3-6 | 0-0 | 1 | 2 | 4 | 2 | 2 | 0 | 3 | 17 |
| C. Wilcox | 13 | 2-4 | 0-0 | 0-0 | 0 | 2 | 0 | 2 | 2 | 0 | 5 | 4 |
| K. Thomas | 27 | 2-7 | 0-0 | 1-2 | 3 | 9 | 3 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 3 | 5 |
| K. Durant | 34 | 5-13 | 1-2 | 7-8 | 0 | 7 | 1 | 3 | 0 | 2 | 4 | 18 |
| E. Watson | 36 | 4-7 | 0-0 | 2-4 | 0 | 3 | 6 | 3 | 1 | 0 | 3 | 10 |
| J. Petro | 11 | 1-4 | 0-0 | 0-0 | 0 | 2 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 2 | 2 | 2 |
| J. Green | 14 | 1-2 | 0-0 | 2-2 | 0 | 3 | 2 | 3 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 4 |
| N. Collison | 35 | 7-12 | 0-0 | 4-5 | 1 | 17 | 3 | 2 | 1 | 1 | 5 | 18 |
| W. Szczerbiak | 24 | 6-8 | 2-2 | 3-3 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 3 | 17 |
| M. Gelabale | 11 | 0-5 | 0-1 | 0-0 | 1 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 |
| L. Ridnour | DNP - Coach’s Decision | |||||||||||
| M. Sene | DNP - Coach’s Decision | |||||||||||
| R. Swift | DNP - Coach’s Decision | |||||||||||
| D. West | DNP - Right Foot Plantar | |||||||||||
| Totals | 235 | 35-76 | 6-11 | 19-24 | 6 | 49 | 23 | 20 | 8 | 5 | 29 | 95 |
| Percentages: | .461 | .545 | .792 | Team Rebounds: 6 |
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| Game Info | ||||||||||||
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Technical Fouls: None Officials: Derek Richardson, Greg Willard, Tony Brown |
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Plus/Minus
The little used Mickael Gelabale led the Supersonics with +8 in his 11.5 minutes of play.
Help Value (hv=Reb+Ast+Blk+Stl-TO)
Nick Collison led the Sonics with an outstanding +20 on the night. Kurt Thomas contributed a +12 rating for the victorious Sonics.
December 6th, 2007 at 12:26 am
Well it was nice to see Wilkins shoot wide open 3’s instead of driving into two people in the paint and forcing an akward shot.
December 6th, 2007 at 12:41 am
We need to talk about Vern Fonk in every game thread. It has lead to a victory. Nick Collison, what a night for him. He needs to keep the Phantom of the Opera look even when he heals if he keeps putting up those numbers. KD filled the stat sheet tonight: 2blks and 7 boards. Way to jump on the Clippers while they are down. Somewhat of a role reversal
December 6th, 2007 at 12:41 am
collison was good tonite. he had a good all-around game. they move the ball made the extra pass. hopefully it the start of strong play from the supes.
December 6th, 2007 at 2:03 am
Damn, with two wins in less than a week I caught myself checking out the standings. Cellar dwellers no more…
Chris Kamen per my wife: Hey, he doesn’t look like an axe murder anymore.
December 6th, 2007 at 2:13 am
interesting tibit, Chris Kaveman is one of the few NBA players with ADHD (I don’t know who else has it however.)
I’m not saying his ADHD made it impossible for him to sit through a hair-cut, but maybe.. just maybe lol
December 6th, 2007 at 3:25 am
Start Jeff Green yet???
December 6th, 2007 at 3:55 am
“Way to jump on the Clippers while they are down. Somewhat of a role reversal”
Dork, uhhh… I don’t know about that. I mean they certainly chipped away at our lead down the stretch. In between stuffing my face with Cheetos (the ones baked to a delicate crunch) I told my cat, Bubbles, that I’m sure they will blow the lead and lose the game as usual. She informed me to to keep faith and assured me the Sonics would pull it out. When time expired I turned to the cat and said “Ok, Ok, you were right. This doesn’t mean I’m going to change your litter box ahead of schedule or anything!”
December 6th, 2007 at 8:35 am
LOL, thank you Bubbles!!!! Went to the game, we were really fortunate that the clips sucked as much as we did in the first, that was an ugly quarter! We earned this one through the rest of the game, especially on the glass, great rebounding by nikc (makes u realize what you miss out on when you use Petro and Wilcox to cover up the hole nick leaves behind). Durant was pretty good and nice and aggressive after a pointless opening stretch. Wilkins taking a wide open uncontested three? sure if that’s the case he can shoot 50 a game! Watson played smart today, moved the ball and had great shot selection. We were mobbing on defense all night, that block by Durant (kid jumped to high be blocked it with his forearm) was sick. I can see us pulling more and more of these games out and I don’t think we’ll be in the cellar for too long… not exactly playoff hopes here, but I think they are getting a feel for what a lead is like and how to turn it into a win. Great game.
December 6th, 2007 at 9:46 am
I remember someone arguing that we should draft dickau
December 6th, 2007 at 10:09 am
Went to the game last night. Gelebale impressed me. He didn’t score, but he looked good out there. They were actually running offense and getting good shot attempts when he ran point.
December 6th, 2007 at 10:37 am
I thought Gele did fine in limited minutes…he is good for a couple games but no more. Other teams will be better prepared to rip him to pieces.
December 6th, 2007 at 10:43 am
a quiet 17 points from channel z off the bench. he usually stands out when he shoots everytime he gets the ball - last night the shots came to him in the flow of the game. the kind of game i expected from him more often when we acquired him.
December 6th, 2007 at 11:05 am
Wallyworld was clutch and he was just solid all game long. Gelabale HAS to hit those open jumpers, thats the only way he’ll get more minutes. At times gelly looked awkward, but I think he was just coming in cold. I like his game and he needs more minutes to develop accordingly. Channel Z is getting into his groove and I can see him averaging around 16ppg for the rest of the season (barring innjury).
December 6th, 2007 at 11:18 am
“I thought Gele did fine in limited minutes…he is good for a couple games but no more. Other teams will be better prepared to rip him to pieces. ”
Gelly did OK as an emergency QB. The offense did run realtively smoothly with him in but I don’t recall many plays where he was making the post entry pass or say setting something up off a screen or pick. Not a long term solution at PG for sure, but - he does know how to move without the ball, which is more than you can say for half this team.
December 6th, 2007 at 11:37 am
Gelable is the only NBA player who can shoot 0-5 commit 3 turnovers and still get the best +/- on the team (+8 for the game). He definitely made an impact on defense and he was sufficient as PG. His shots were just barely missing, but they were missing. If he can ever get that 3 to fall he would be a starter. Again, I think it is just a matter of floor time with him - but PJ is starving him of minutes for some reason.
December 6th, 2007 at 11:51 am
“Gelly did OK as an emergency QB. The offense did run realtively smoothly with him in but I don’t recall many plays where he was making the post entry pass or say setting something up off a screen or pick. Not a long term solution at PG for sure, but - he does know how to move without the ball, which is more than you can say for half this team.” {Steve}
Unless it’s in an emergency situation like last night, there’s no way in hell that Mickael Gelabale — who’s a supbar ball-handler with mediocre court vision — should play point guard.
Hell, Gelabale isn’t even suited to play shooting guard. As it is, the dreadlocked Frenchman operates best starting out over on the weakside corner and having the ball swung out to him by a true playmaker.
From there, Gelabale can either shoot a spot-up three-pointer, dribble in a bit and sink a mid-range jumper, or drive to the hoop forcefully in an attempt to dunk it or draw a foul. Gelabale is also adept at cutting to the basket, catching sharp passes, and hitting lay-ups.
“It does worry me when Damien Wilkins leads the team in shot attempts, but tonight that didn’t bite us.” {Big Chris}
It worries me more when Kevin Durant shoots 5 for 13 from the field, while committing 3 turnovers to having just 1 assist. Even as a guy who’s advocated trading Damien Wilkins for almost two years, it astounds me that so many people here irrationally detest him as a player.
December 6th, 2007 at 12:25 pm
AK: do you remember Durant hitting a jump shot with just under 2:00 left in the game? I don’t. The game description has that. I think the scorer may have gotten that wrong, and that it was someone else who hit that shot. But I did not tape the game. I had Durant going 4 -12.
Anyone remember Durant hitting a jump shot at about 1:57 of the game?
Not that it matters. Just curious if I really missed that shot.
December 6th, 2007 at 12:27 pm
Before getting too warm and fuzzy about Gelabale’s +/-, realize that most of his minutes were when Dan Dickau was running the show for the Clips.
December 6th, 2007 at 12:31 pm
My problem with Damien is that he is taking playing time from Gelabale - who I simply enjoy watching more and I believe is a better (and younger) player who deserves playing time.
In general, Damien is a decent back-up SF/SG whose early season shooting is probably a bit of an aberation based on pervious years. A bit of a concern is that the dude has a TS% of 54.2% while shooting 45% from 3-land. I am doubting whether he is going to continue shooting 45% from 3 - which suggests his TS% is due to fall a bit.
December 6th, 2007 at 12:36 pm
“I think the scorer may have gotten that wrong, and that it was someone else who hit that shot.”
So the official scorer missed a shot and gave it to Durant because you don’t remember it.
Me thinks your anti-Durant bias glasses are getting a bit too steamed.
December 6th, 2007 at 12:36 pm
“Before getting too warm and fuzzy about Gelabale’s +/-, realize that most of his minutes were when Dan Dickau was running the show for the Clips.” {Dick Tate}.
Gelable has definitely been playing at fortuitous times this season re his +/-. It is still interesting that I think in every game he has played, he has had a positive +/-. It has been partly luck, partly timing, but he is also doing something right.
December 6th, 2007 at 12:43 pm
Scott: you remember Durant hitting a jumper with about 2:00 left in the game? This is the first time this season that my fg/fga for Durant were not exactly the same as the official box score, so I don’t think you can blame it on my “bias” regarding Durant. I know that scorers occasionally make mistakes. Just wondering if that is what happened last night, or if I missed Durant’s basket. If anyone can remember Durant hitting that shot, then I’ll take that as confirmation that I am the one who missed it, not the official scorer.
December 6th, 2007 at 1:01 pm
In general, Damien is a decent back-up SF/SG whose early season shooting is probably a bit of an aberation based on pervious years. A bit of a concern is that the dude has a TS% of 54.2% while shooting 45% from 3-land. I am doubting whether he is going to continue shooting 45% from 3 - which suggests his TS% is due to fall a bit.” {McCoy}
Damien Wilkins’ eFG% and TS% could dwindle if his stroke from downtown regresses back to around 41%, but he’ll still be considered a valuable role player. That’s part of the reason regarding my desire to trade Wilkins elsewhere, with his hometown team of the Atlanta Hawks being a likely destination.
Hell, swapping Earl Watson and Wilkins for Josh Childress (Field-Goal Percentage: 57.7%; Effective Field-Goal Percentage: 60.2%; True Shooting Percentage: 66.9%) — along with the expiring contracts of point guard Tyronn Lue and Anthony Johnson — is an alluring hypothetical. As a two-way swingman who can score efficiently, Childress is the type of player who Kevin Durant would flourish alongside at the wing positions.
December 6th, 2007 at 1:24 pm
Childress is an above average ball handler too. Something sorely needed in these parts.
December 6th, 2007 at 1:26 pm
I think Damiens uncle might want to avoid the appearance of nepotism.
December 6th, 2007 at 1:30 pm
Nepotism is the showing of favoritism toward relatives, based upon that relationship, rather than on an objective evaluation of ability or suitability. For instance, offering employment to a relative, despite the fact that there are others who are better qualified and willing to perform the job, would be considered nepotism. The word nepotism is from the Latin word ‘nepos’, meaning “nephew” or “grandchild”.
December 6th, 2007 at 1:31 pm
“Scott: you remember Durant hitting a jumper with about 2:00 left in the game?”
Very vaguely, I don’t chart anything when watching the games. I know he hit one shot in the fourth quarter along the baseline and I know it was soon after he was called for the offensive foul where Magette fell down without having position. In looking at the game flow they have him going 1-2 in the fourth quarter, with the rest of his points coming on FT’s. If the shot they’re talking about him making is from the baseline about 3-5 feet out then yeah I remember it.
December 6th, 2007 at 1:53 pm
Why on earth would Atlanta give us Childress and expiring contracts for trash (aside from nepotism). Wilkins has only very modest value (especially considering the fact that he can opt out after this season), and Watson, who has a big contract and can’t shoot, has negative value.
I like that you’re thinking creatively AK, but I’ve yet to hear a realistic trade proposal.
Our most tradeable commodities are KT and Wilcox. If you aren’t giving up one of those guys then we probably aren’t going to get much back.
December 6th, 2007 at 2:07 pm
By the way, did anyone see this article?
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22122322/
It speculates that the Hornets will fail in N.O. and there might be a franchise swap where Bennett takes the Hornets to OKC and Shinn sells the Sonics to a local ownership group.
That would be pretty sweet eh?
What exactly happens with a franchise swap? Do we keep all of the players? Do we keep Presti and P.J.?
December 6th, 2007 at 2:19 pm
On a side note, PJ’s preschool age son hits his jumpshots before the games with better accuracy than most of the team has been doing with layups of late.
December 6th, 2007 at 2:34 pm
So now MSNBC is taking ideas from Sonicscentral blogs and calling it news?
December 6th, 2007 at 2:56 pm
It speculates that the Hornets will fail in N.O. and there might be a franchise swap where Bennett takes the Hornets to OKC and Shinn sells the Sonics to a local ownership group.
That would be pretty sweet eh?
Yes, perhaps we should talk about this a bit more.
December 6th, 2007 at 2:58 pm
“It speculates that the Hornets will fail in N.O. and there might be a franchise swap where Bennett takes the Hornets to OKC and Shinn sells the Sonics to a local ownership group.” {Big_Worm}
I’m wary of any article that’s written by Sam Smith.
“What exactly happens with a franchise swap? Do we keep all of the players? Do we keep Presti and P.J.?” {Big_Worm}
In that case, everyone who’s employed by the Seattle Supersonics would be obligated to stay with the franchise. Yet, that notwithstanding, it’s theoretically possible that Sam Presti could ask out of his contract with the Supersonics and rejoin the Professional Basketball Club, LLC and its majority owner, Clayton Bennett, with the Oklahoma City Hornets.
December 6th, 2007 at 2:59 pm
yeah, let’s talk more about it, Dick.
We can start by answering my questions. Do we keep Presti, P.J. and the players in the event of a franchise swap, or do we just keep the Sonics name, legacy, etc.?
December 6th, 2007 at 3:03 pm
Would you guys rather have the Sonics’ roster or the Hornets? Tyson Chandler and Chris Paul or Kevin Durant and Jeff Green?
December 6th, 2007 at 3:06 pm
KD for the long run.
December 6th, 2007 at 3:17 pm
This would be a tricky proposition in terms of who goes where. If I were Bennett, I would want the organization that I put together to stay with me. On the other hand, it would be great to be handed a playoff caliber team in a city that is somewhat familiar with the team and its players.
Has this ever been done in pro sports before? I am not sure they can make Shinn sell anymore than they can force Bennet to stay in Seattle. Probably even less so.
December 6th, 2007 at 3:18 pm
Sorry Worm, I thought you were looking the rehash the convo from the past few days. My mistake.
After the Sonics end up in Ok City, i’d be more than happy to see the Hornets relocate to a remodeled Key Arena after the NO lease expires.
December 6th, 2007 at 3:19 pm
Isn’t Childress an FA this summer?
December 6th, 2007 at 3:20 pm
Though I have not been overly impressed by Chris Paul on the two occasions that I have seen him play (when the Supes played the Hornets), his statistics speak for themselves. The stats suggest that he should be one of the front runners for the MVP award this season, rather than his counterpart in Salt Lake City. That’s pretty impressive for a 23-year old in his third year of professional basketball who spent only two years in college.
I still believe that Durant will become one of the ten best players in the NBA in three years. However, I’m not sold on Green and Durant being the combo of the future; they don’t appear to be a good fit in the same way that Kobe and Odom are not a good fit.
December 6th, 2007 at 3:29 pm
“Would you guys rather have the Sonics’ roster or the Hornets? Tyson Chandler and Chris Paul or Kevin Durant and Jeff Green?” {Big_Worm}
In the scenario laid out by Sam Smith, the Professional Basketball Club, LLC would sell the Seattle Supersonics to a local buyer (e.g., Steve Ballmer), purchase the New Orleans Hornets from owner George Shinn, and relocate that franchise to Oklahoma City; thus, in the slight event that such an implausible actually occurs, there’d be no swapping of players. Nevertheless, I’d rather build around a core of Tyson Chandler and Chris Paul than Jeff Green and Kevin Durant — if I was a NBA front office executive, of course — since Chandler is a defenisvely dominant center and Paul is arguably a top-ten player at just the age of 22.
December 6th, 2007 at 3:30 pm
Having now read the article, I think that the Sonic situation will be resolved before the NBA decides to bail on NO. Thus, if something like this were to happen, I think the current Sonics would be in OKC with the new Sonics being the old Hornets. The challenge is that a new arena situation would have to be in place for either scenario to happen.
December 6th, 2007 at 3:32 pm
“So now MSNBC is taking ideas from Sonicscentral blogs and calling it news? ”
I would believe that Sam Smith would do that, yes. Feel free to call him an asshole and a hypocrite, by the way. Since discussing this topic so freely obviously means that Smith wants the Hornets and the New Orleans market to fail. ::)
OK, I’m done.
December 6th, 2007 at 3:36 pm
Alex, I like your analogy to bryant and odom.
December 6th, 2007 at 3:37 pm
“Has this ever been done in pro sports before? I am not sure they can make Shinn sell anymore than they can force Bennet to stay in Seattle. Probably even less so.” {malaman41}
Yeah, New Orleans Hornets Owner George Shinn would attempt to once again relocate the organization before ever selling it. As it is, Louisville or Saint Louis would probably his desired destination for relocating the franchise; however, that whole ordeal has several years to go before anything gets set into motion.
December 6th, 2007 at 3:39 pm
“I would believe that Sam Smith would do that, yes. Feel free to call him an asshole and a hypocrite, by the way. Since discussing this topic so freely obviously means that Smith wants the Hornets and the New Orleans market to fail.” {Steve}
We agree on something!
I, too, believe that Sam Smith would jack ideas from any imaginable source—including SonicsCentral.
December 6th, 2007 at 3:43 pm
I think Durant and Green would be great at the 3 and 4 if we had a legit center to provide a physical defensive presence.
Still, it’s hard to argue with Chandler and Paul. Although, Durant and Green are considerably cheaper, and will be for a few more years, which means the Sonics will have plenty of opportunity to add to their talent: A likely top-5 pick after this season and then a big signing in ‘09 after some of our big contracts expire. We could conceivable offer Paul a max deal as a RFA after the ‘08-’09 season.
December 6th, 2007 at 3:45 pm
I think those 2 will mesh just fine. I think their skill sets are different. Phoenix, Dallas, GS are all up tempo teams that have a number of parts that are versatile and interchangeable. Green and Durant can be part of building the same type of situation here.
December 6th, 2007 at 3:49 pm
AK
Do you have a girlfriend now or something? you are way more reasonable lately.
Of course, it could be that your doom and gloom predictions have come true so you are no longer the hell and brimstone guy. Cause hell is here.
December 6th, 2007 at 3:56 pm
I’ll take a center and guard over 2 wing players every time. Control the middle of the court first, then the wings.
December 6th, 2007 at 4:16 pm
I agree with McCoy. That’s the recipie for a contender right there. That last championship team that was built around a wing player was… um… er… uh… ???
December 6th, 2007 at 4:23 pm
Yeah, even Jordan’s teams were really built around Cartrwright and later, Wennington NOT Jordan and Pippen.
Just kidding.
I would take Paul and Wright and Chandler over Durant and Green.
But would I regret that in 5 years? Probably.
December 6th, 2007 at 4:24 pm
er… i meant West not Wright.
December 6th, 2007 at 4:25 pm
“That’s the recipie for a contender right there. That last championship team that was built around a wing player was… um… er… uh… ???”
I think Dwayne Wade could answer your question.
Wing players have been vital to nearly every championship team. The Spurs don’t win in 2007 and 2005 without Ginobli and the Pistons don’t win in 2004 without Prince or Hamilton. I’ve already mentioned Wade in 2006. Dick, I think your question really was the last championship team to “solely” be based around wing players. The answer to that question appears to be the Bulls dynasty.
December 6th, 2007 at 4:37 pm
On another sidenote, Petro and Gelabale and a third player that I did not see were at my son’s school today. Gele was cool enough to stick around outside and sign autographs for a ton of kids for quite a long time.
December 6th, 2007 at 4:38 pm
Great supporting wing players are important (see Ginobili and Pippen) but it is easier to find replacements - or the replacement is not as great a loss as replaceing a great PG or C. Think about the Sonics - they have a plethora of decent wing and power forward type players. But they get killed because the PG and C positions are weak.
December 6th, 2007 at 4:40 pm
The last point to play in the NBA Finals in a season for which he averaged over seven assists was Jason Kidd in 2003. If you recall, that series between New Jersey and San Antonio was the second-lowest rated NBA Finals this decade, only to be surpassed by this past year’s NBA Finals between the Cleveland and San Antonio.
That masterful distributors have failed to reach any of the last four NBA Finals is telling. It suggests that a dominant offensive wing player is more valuable than a point guard who is a masterful distributor.
December 6th, 2007 at 4:45 pm
A fair point, Alex. I’d argue that Wade, Jordan and Kobe were more of the points on those teams, since they always had the ball in their hands, while the actually PGs waited on the wings for spot up shots.
December 6th, 2007 at 4:52 pm
A fair point, Alex. I’d argue that Wade, Jordan and Kobe were more of the points on those teams, since they always had the ball in their hands, while the actually PGs waited on the wings for spot up shots.
So if Durant is controlling the ball the majority of the time on our offensive side of the court, can we call him our PG too then?
It is settled then. We are building around a stud 6′10″ PG. ;o)
December 6th, 2007 at 5:11 pm
“It suggests that a dominant offensive wing player is more valuable than a point guard who is a masterful distributor. ”
Could high APG also be explained partially by having the ball in that players hands most of time?
In 04-05 the top 5 APG guys were Nash, Brevin Knight, Kidd, Marbury and Iverson. in 05-06 Nash, Baron, Brevin Knight, Billups and Kidd. Last year it’s Nash, Deron Williams, Kidd, CP3 and Baron. Now no question some of those guys really are superior distributors, but I wonder if guys like Baron, Marbles, AI and even CP3 didn’t post big assist numbers because they were basically the primary source of offense for their respective teams.
I guess I’m trying to make a case for non-traditional guys like Ron Harper and Tony Parker who weren’t or aren’t primarily distributor-style PGs. Harper could handle the ball pretty well and took a lot of pressure of MJ on the defensive end. MJ was a very good defender but surely having two guys who could guard 3 positions each also helped.
Parker is a bit like KJ in that he creates offense for others through his extraordinary foot speed. He’s a very hard guy to cover at full speed and of course SAs defensive system doesn’t allow opponents to iso him and take advantage of his small size. It’s not all just playing with Duncan though obviously that helps.
The game has changed in that the rules reward those guys who are quick and can face up … you can’t hand check or slow down or turn those guys like you could 10 years ago so in that sense you’re right, the dominant wing is more valuable because the rules changes are designed to benefit him.
Brian and I have often talked about how the league rewards skills and athleticism … If you have NBA athelticism or even one extraordinary NBA skill teams can usually find a place for you. I think that the classic distributor type guy might be a thing of the past because teams have found other ways for guys to make offense for teammates without putting it all on one guy on the floor. It seems easier to win titles with a good big man and a 5 APG guy at PG than with no big guy and an 8-10 APG guy at the point, though that’s probably an overgeneralization.
December 6th, 2007 at 5:38 pm
I think the formula that has had the most success is the dominant post-player, dominant wing player, and a serviceable point guard that can average 5-6 assists a game. While no team has won a championship since the Jordan era without a dominant post presence, sans Detroit, the same argument can be made as to offensively dominant wings. I cannot see the Lakers, Spurs, Heat, and the Pistons winning championships without Kobe, Wade, Ginobli, and Hamilton. I don’t believe the same argument can be made with masterful distributors as no such player has even played in the NBA Finals since 2003.
December 6th, 2007 at 5:46 pm
Steve, I think you are right that guys who average over eight assists a game aren’t necessarily masterful distributors but rather guys who happen to have the ball in their hands for the majority of the game. The only players that appear to fit the description of a masterful distributor are Kidd, Nash, Paul, and possibly less heralded guys like Jose Calderon and TJ Ford.
December 6th, 2007 at 6:06 pm
Scott, if you remember Durant hitting a short jumper at the 2:00 mark, then I guess he did. I don’t remember that.
Jordan and Wade were definitely their teams’ point guards. They had more assists than any other guard on their teams, so how else do you define “point guard.” Obviously, they were not classic point guards, but so what? What you need from both guards is good shooting, which is what you need at every other position, also. But your guards better be able to shoot from outside, because you cannot count on perimeter shooting from your big men, although some big men are great outside shooters.
The classic, great NBA championship teams had great centers surrounded by excellent outside shooters. Only big men can dominate a basketball game on both ends of the court. It’s pretty unusal for a championship team to not have a great big man, and I consider Tim Duncan to be a center, even if he is listed at forward.
If Orlando can get enough outside shooting, with Howard in the middle, they are going to be a serious contender. If Houston can get enough outside shooting with Yao in the middle, they would be a contender. As long as Duncan is dominating, SA will continue to contend. I don’t consider Garnett to be a true center, but if he can dominate inside, which I really doubt, the Celtics might be a contender, but I am not convinced. I think Boston is fools’ gold. I think they will not continue to play this well. Phoenix with Amare healthy is a contender.
Pretty much have to have that dominating big man to win a title, although, I recognize the Jordan Bulls proved it is not absolutely necessary. I don’t see any Michael Jordans in today’s NBA, however.
By the way, since others gave some Sonics sightings from today, I saw Sene at Costco on 4th S. this afternoon. Man, isn’t that guy making enough money that he does not have to shop at Costco?
December 6th, 2007 at 6:14 pm
The Big Dipper,
I think you are getting caught up in semantics when trying to pigeon hole players into PG or Center positions.
Essentially, the formula ends up being, teams need a dominant “post player” and a dominant “guard/wing”.
Which is essentially obvious, because it allows you to dominate both in the paint and from the outside, so a team isn’t totally reliant on one means of scoring and prevents the opposing team from focusing their defense in one area or the other. In addition, it allows you to match up defensively against another team who might be more focused in one area or the other.
Balance is obviously important when it comes to building a title contender.
December 6th, 2007 at 6:16 pm
I’m in the pro-Gellybelly camp. I loved seeing him out there and believe his court vision, handle, athleticism, creativity, and basketball IQ are all extremely high. The only knock I’d put on him, and perhaps could be why he doesn’t play more, is that I’ve heard he’s kinda lazy.
But I’ve seen him swish the 3 like it was an 8 footer, and I think his shot was just too hard last night cuz he was kinda jacked up to be out there running the point.
December 6th, 2007 at 7:04 pm
This is why I said, and still say, that there was only one “franchise” player in last year’s draft. And it was not Kevin Durant. I think there are a lot of players in the NBA who can shoot as well as Durant. I don’t think there are many big men who are as dominant as Oden has a chance to be. Oden could be that big man you need. I think Durant is just another forward.
Frozenroper: by the way, do you remember Durant hitting a jumper at the 2:00 minute mark last night? This is kind of bugging me. I am having a hard time accepting that I just totally missed that shot, but Scott says he remembers it. I just think that any time Durant makes any shot, Colabro and Jones go nuts, like it’s the first time anyone has ever made a shot in the history of basketball. I can’t believe that if Durant hit a jumper with about 2 minutes left, that those guys wouldn’t have made it sound like it was the most “clutch” shot they had ever witnessed. And I don’t remember that shot at all. Do you?
December 6th, 2007 at 7:39 pm
It’s all about ball movement. By penetration or by passing. Luke makes the ball move in the half court making the defense move and creating better/easier opportunities to score. During the 04-05 season Luke didn’t always get the assist but his pass led to the assist. Please check the accuracy of my statement at 82games.com about the “pre-assist.” The ball just moves better when Luke is out there and it looks like it is painful at times to score when Earl or Delonte is in the half court.
December 6th, 2007 at 7:41 pm
Am I off topic at this juncture?
December 6th, 2007 at 9:29 pm
“Jordan and Wade were definitely their teams’ point guards. They had more assists than any other guard on their teams, so how else do you define “point guard.” Obviously, they were not classic point guards, but so what? What you need from both guards is good shooting, which is what you need at every other position, also. But your guards better be able to shoot from outside, because you cannot count on perimeter shooting from your big men, although some big men are great outside shooters.” {The Big Dipper}
During Michael Jordan’s first two years with the Chicago Bulls — which was when Kevin Loughery and Stan Albeck were the head coaches there — he played mostly at point guard in the backcourt alongside high volume shooters such as Quintin Dailey and George Gervin. I went over that the other day in more detail, though.
http://sonicscentral.com/blog/?p=1570#comments
When Doug Collins was at the helm from 1986-1987 through 1988-1989, however, the Bulls ran a flex motion offense. Jordan shifted over to shooting guard per Collins’ orders, while the sharp-shooting John Paxson was trotted out at point guard. Yet, because Collins’ playbook relied heavily on dribble drives, give-’n'-gos, and backdoor cuts, Jordan managed to pile up tons of assists — which he did by hitting Charles Oakley in the low-post, Horace Grant at the elbow after he came off of a screen, Scottie Pippen when he’d cut across the baseline toward the hoop, or Paxson while he planted himself somewhere beyond the arc — while being the focal point offensively.
http://www.coachesclipboard.net/FlexOffense.html
It wasn’t until Phil Jackson took over prior to the 1989-1990 season, however, that Jordan truly became a shooting guard. Yet, despite the reduction in playmaking — as Jackson converted the athletic, albeit highly skilled Pippen from an old-fashioned small forward into a contemporary point forward — Jordan nevertheless tallied a bunch of assists within the triangle offense. The scheme required every player on the court — no matter their position — to make sharp, percise passes. The backcourt was rounded out by Paxson, B.J. Armstrong, and Craig Hodges, who effectively became known as off guards — which was a gig that revolved mainly around shooting spot-up three-pointers — within the system.
http://www.cybersportsusa.com/hooptactics/triangle.asp
December 6th, 2007 at 10:39 pm
Frozenroper: by the way, do you remember Durant hitting a jumper at the 2:00 minute mark last night?
I wasn’t keeping track close enough tin the 4th quarter to remember, I was in and out of the room. Only caught about half the 4th quater and don’t specifically remember him hitting at “J” at the point you are referencing….then again, I’m still stuck on him coming from the weak side and spiking that shot into the stands.
December 6th, 2007 at 11:34 pm
December 06, 2007
So obvious, even an idiot can see it - NBA- msnbc.com
http://theseattlesupersonics.blogspot.com/2007/12/so-obvious-even-idiot-can-see-it-nba.html
December 6th, 2007 at 11:35 pm
Big Dip- It seems like u’re kind of exaggerating on a # of fronts man. First, by saying that KD is just another forward. Technically he’s playing guard(at 6ft9 with a 7+ wingspan), so would u say that he’s just another guard? Either way, he’s not just another anything imo. Ok maybe at the age of 19 he’s just another f, but that could have been said about all the great players in the NBA at that age. I remember Amare S, Dwight H, Kobe, etc., and it wasn’t clear with any of them that they would turn out to be what they are. Jordan was an unknown freshman, on a team who’s best players were James Worthy, and Sam Perkins when he first turned 19(near the end of the 82 season). I just think it’s exaggerating to say that he’s just another f, so I’ll ask this, is he just another 19 YEAR OLD forward(or guard?), and hopefully that puts things back in perspective.
Finally, Calabro and Snap don’t go THAT crazy when KD hits a shot. In fact Snapper seems to be reserving judgement, and seems as quick to point out his mistakes, as he is to point out made shots. As for Calabro he gets excited about alot of things that happen, but that’s his job(and his style). That’s just what I’m seeing though…
December 7th, 2007 at 1:40 am
I would take Durant and Green over Paul and Chandler. Granted, finding talent at Paul and Chandlers’ positions is rare, but, I’m just not sure that those two will ever get rings. I’m not really sure if they’ll be much better of a duo than Deron Williams and Boozer in Utah IMO. I think that they could be a rock solid combination for many years, but, I just don’t see them winning rings. I think KD has more of a killer instinct, and in the long haul he’ll be the best player of the four. Paul and Chandler might combine for more 50 win seasons, but, in the end I think KD has the best chance at getting a ring. Right now, we’re just seeing the tip of the iceberg.
December 7th, 2007 at 1:45 am
^I should say Jordan was relatively unknown until he hit that game winner in the NCAA finals at the age of 19. Not entirely unknown, as that would obviously be incorrect, and an exaggeration on my part, but the point is that KD is on par with some of the greats(including MJ). Greg Oden has already suffered a setback, which he can definitely recover from, but out of the 2 KD’s still looking as bright as ever, while Oden’s got his work really cut out for him to reach all the expectations. I guess that’s true about KD though too. Centers aren’t quite as rare as they were about 5 years ago during the Shaq era though, and even though the Sonics are still w/o a legit C, I think it’s possible that we can get a pretty decent center to go along with KD if we play our cards right in the future. It’s not like we had the choice to get Oden anyway, and in hindsight, I have to wonder if Por still would have taken Oden, if they knew how his rookie year would turn out, and also how Aldridge would develop…
December 7th, 2007 at 1:53 am
“This is why I said, and still say, that there was only one “franchise” player in last year’s draft. And it was not Kevin Durant. I think there are a lot of players in the NBA who can shoot as well as Durant. I don’t think there are many big men who are as dominant as Oden has a chance to be. Oden could be that big man you need. I think Durant is just another forward.”–The Big Dipper
Dude. First of all, Oden was a fine college prospect, however he’s hurt and he’s actually put on a lot of weight while rehabbing his injuries. Nobody knows how good Greg Oden is going to be. It could be boom or it could be bust. He could be great or he could turn out to be worse than LaMarcus Aldridge. We have no idea.
Second of all, you can’t really honestly believe that Durant is “just another forward,” can you??? He’s already been rookie of the month. He’s scored 22 points against Team USA members. He’s got a game winner against Atlanta. He’s improving his shooting percentage in the past few games. Plus this is his ROOKIE season. Do you remember the bricks that Payton threw up as a rookie? He turned out pretty fine. KD is starting at a higher level than many rookies who turned into phenomenal players.
If you were expecting a rookie to get a ring like Magic did in their first year, well, that’s never going to happen again. I think that the “franchise player” label is kind of getting old. Greg Oden is not Tim Duncan yet. KD has done extremely well. Jordan’s team only won about 38 games his rookie year. Once KD’s supporting group improves, the sky is the limit.
December 7th, 2007 at 9:35 am
I think we can look forward to many finals appearances featuring Lebron vs. KD.
December 7th, 2007 at 10:07 am
“This is why I said, and still say, that there was only one “franchise” player in last year’s draft. And it was not Kevin Durant. I think there are a lot of players in the NBA who can shoot as well as Durant. I don’t think there are many big men who are as dominant as Oden has a chance to be. Oden could be that big man you need. I think Durant is just another forward”
Screw Jordan, shooters are easy to find. Draft that Sam Bowie kid.
DYNASTY!!!! Chiacgo is teh suxor!!!!!!!!!1
Wasn’t shooting supposedly the most important NBA skill a player could possibly have?
December 7th, 2007 at 10:18 am
Yes, it is very silly to look at KD’s game now and assume that this is all he will ever be.
He’ll never be built like LeBron, but he is inevitably going to gain some muscle mass… he’s barely 19!
He’s already starting to be more aggressive defensively with his shot blocking… Imagine what he’ll do with about 20 more pounds of muscle - I can see him eventually getting Shawn Marion-type defensive stats. Once he moves to one of the forward spots he’ll start rebounding more as well.
Shooting wise… he’s learning how to get his shot in the NBA, and he’s playing on a terrible team with mediocre PG play. As our leading scorer he draws a ton of defensive attention, and as a rookie he isn’t yet getting the benefit of doubt from the refs. Even still, his shot selection is improving noticeably and he’s making an effort to get to the line, especially at the end of games (and he’s hitting 82% of his free throws).
Also, if you look at his FG%, he’s shooting almost 10 points better when he’s not playing back-to-back nights. That tells me that like most rookies he’s still adjusting to the grueling NBA season. We can expect this to even out as his body matures and he gets accustomed to the grind of the NBA.
1 or more days rest: 42.4%
0 days rest: 32.6%
I think eventually we’ll see these kind of numbers from Durant:
35 PPG
47% FG
42% 3FG
90% FT
10 RPG
4 APG
2 BPG
2 SPG
To further put it in perspective, Tyson Chandler is in his 7th season, and until last season he never averaged more than 27 minutes per game. Durant just turned 19. At the end of his 7th season he’ll be 25 and still wont even be in his physical prime yet.
Give the kid a year or two before you cast your prognostications of mediocrity.
December 7th, 2007 at 10:55 am
Kevin Durant will replace MJ as the greatest player of all time!
I can tell by what I have seen so far this year.
You can take that to the bank!
December 7th, 2007 at 11:03 am
OT: Warning! Never ever watch a video called 2girls 1 cup.
December 7th, 2007 at 11:07 am
“Screw Jordan, shooters are easy to find. Draft that Sam Bowie kid.
DYNASTY!!!! Chiacgo is teh suxor!!!!!!!!!1
Wasn’t shooting supposedly the most important NBA skill a player could possibly have?” {Steve}
Even though The Big Dipper is too harsh toward Kevin Durant, I can’t ignore the idiocy of anyone who compares Durant to Michael Jordan; it’s an insult to the greatest player in NBA history.
Anyhow, regardless of Jordan’s vast superiority over Durant on the defensive end, “His Airness’” dominance as a rookie (Player Efficiency Rating: 25.8; Assist Rate: 17.6; Rebound Rate: 9.8; Field-Goal Percentage: 51.5%; Effective Field-Goal Percentage: 51.8%; True Shooting Percentage: 59.2%; Points Produced Per 100 Possessions: 118) leaves Durant’s production thus far this season in the dust (Player Efficiency Rating: 13.9; Assist Ratio: 7.8; Rebound Rate: 6.9; Field-Goal Percentage: 39.7%; Effective Field-Goal Percentage: 43.4%; True Shooting Percentage: 49.8%; Points Produced Per 100 Possessions: 99).
Let’s not forget Durant’s amazing ability to worsen his team (Net +/- Production: -18.6 & Net Points Per 100 Possessions: -15.8) and get abused on defense (Effective Field-Goal Percentage Allowed: 52.0%; Net Effective Field-Goal Percentage Allowed: +9.7%). I, however, am impressed that Durant has managed to put up such empty numbers while still posting a 26.2 Usage Rate — which is sixteenth highest in the NBA — as that takes bullheaded persistence.
December 7th, 2007 at 11:08 am
“OT: Warning! Never ever watch a video called 2girls 1 cup.”
Scat porn is pure hilarity.
December 7th, 2007 at 11:14 am
“I can’t ignore the idiocy of anyone who compares Durant to Michael Jordan”
That was a comparison?
http://www.rif.org/
December 7th, 2007 at 11:23 am
AK - Jordan turned 22 his rookie season. He also had 3 years at North Carolina under Dean Smith before he got to the NBA. He was also playing on a better, more experienced team than Durant is, and had a 23PPG scorer to share the burden with.
Not a fair comparison.
That aside, I wouldn’t compare Durant to Jordan either. Jordan is the best player in NBA history… it’s ludicrous to put that tag on anybody.
December 7th, 2007 at 12:11 pm
Let’s compare Jordan and Durant on level terms:
Jordan as a Freshman at UNC:
13.5 PPG, 4.4 RPG, 1.8 APG in 32 minutes a game.
Durant as a Freshman at Texas:
26 PPG, 11 RPG, 2 APG in whatever minutes.
As a Sophomore, Jordan put up 20 PPG at UNC while Durant is putting up 20 PPG in the NBA.
At this point, you can’t compare the two. Give Durant 10 years to accomplish what Jordan has and see where we’re at then.
December 7th, 2007 at 12:12 pm
I think the formula that has had the most success is the dominant post-player, dominant wing player, and a serviceable point guard that can average 5-6 assists a game. While no team has won a championship since the Jordan era without a dominant post presence, sans Detroit, the same argument can be made as to offensively dominant wings. I cannot see the Lakers, Spurs, Heat, and the Pistons winning championships without Kobe, Wade, Ginobli, and Hamilton. I don’t believe the same argument can be made with masterful distributors as no such player has even played in the NBA Finals since 2003.
- I love this argument…everyone uses it as if it is some sort of ultimate truth. If you want to use the argument you might as well be completely honest and say: No team has ever won a championship without a Center named Tim, Shaq or Hakeem.
Being how little parity there has been in championship teams in the NBA it is really silly to come up with some sort of overall theory of who wins championships. Heck, in the last twenty years the biggest indicator of who is going to win a championship is if you have a head coach with a first or last name that stars with the letter “P” (which explains the real reason why the Sonics hired PJ)
AK - Jordan turned 22 his rookie season. He also had 3 years at North Carolina under Dean Smith before he got to the NBA. He was also playing on a better, more experienced team than Durant is, and had a 23PPG scorer to share the burden with
- WHAT?!?! You mean all of AK’s completely unsubstantiated hate towards Kevin Durant and his game doesn’t make any sense…unbelievable….
December 7th, 2007 at 12:14 pm
The Big Dipper was the best player in NBA history. Only Jabbar, the second best player, comes close. Many of you guys probably never even got to see the Dipper play. You don’t have a clue.
December 7th, 2007 at 12:18 pm
“Let’s compare Jordan and Durant on level terms:
Jordan as a Freshman at UNC:
13.5 PPG, 4.4 RPG, 1.8 APG in 32 minutes a game.
Durant as a Freshman at Texas:
26 PPG, 11 RPG, 2 APG in whatever minutes.
As a Sophomore, Jordan put up 20 PPG at UNC while Durant is putting up 20 PPG in the NBA.
At this point, you can’t compare the two. Give Durant 10 years to accomplish what Jordan has and see where we’re at then.”
The competition in the NCAA is much, much more diluted nowadays than it was back during the early-’80s. Furthermore, as a freshman with the North Carolina Tar Heels during its 1981-1982 championship season, Michael Jordan had Sam Perkins and James Worthy as teammates.
Jordan did this, too.
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/espn25/story?page=moments/49
I don’t recall Kevin Durant winning a goddamn thing with the Texas Longhorns.
December 7th, 2007 at 12:18 pm
Durant shooting on 0 days rest is an interesting stat find big worm, thanks. On 2 days rest he is strongest. That pattern is pretty typical but some players vary from it.
Durant’s shooting now and in future has been covered a lot.
But one other spin you could put on it-
Durant and Watson per 100 shots this season Durant wins by 2 points because his eFG% is 1% higher. Different roles of course. But Watson has come up and Durant’s is still low- thus far.
December 7th, 2007 at 12:23 pm
- I love this argument…everyone uses it as if it is some sort of ultimate truth. If you want to use the argument you might as well be completely honest and say: No team has ever won a championship without a Center named Tim, Shaq or Hakeem.
- I also love this argument because some of the greatest post players of our generation very rarely even participated in the Finals. Barkely, Malone, Ewing, Garnett, Kemp, Robinson etc.
Even Hakeem only played in the Finals twice. Kareem and Wilt were never all that successful in leading their teams to championships.
It is quite obvious that while a post player is a great luxary to have…it does not guarantee a Finals appearance whatsoever…
December 7th, 2007 at 12:24 pm
The Big Dipper was the best player in NBA history. Only Jabbar, the second best player, comes close. Many of you guys probably never even got to see the Dipper play. You don’t have a clue.
- Hmmm, obviously that is a debateably stance. I’m not sure many people would agree with you…
December 7th, 2007 at 12:26 pm
It is also funny that the two players you talk about are two that I specifically point out as having a tough time leading their team to winning championships. You’d think that the two best players in history would’ve been a little better at that.
December 7th, 2007 at 12:37 pm
Frozenropers Says:
So if Durant is controlling the ball the majority of the time on our offensive side of the court, can we call him our PG too then?
It is settled then. We are building around a stud 6′10″ PG. ;o)
It’s worth a shot. If he ends up playing a game along the lines of T-Mac (who I also consider a pseudo PG), I think it’s a fair idea. Of course like most of the guards mentioned, you still need that big man to play off of that’s option #1 to be considered a contender, imo.
December 7th, 2007 at 12:37 pm
“The Big Dipper was the best player in NBA history. Only Jabbar, the second best player, comes close.”
Kareem was the second best player in NBA history? He wasn’t even the second best player on his own team.
“Many of you guys probably never even got to see the Dipper play. You don’t have a clue. ”
Yeah how clueless and stupid we all are not to have been born in the 50s. It makes it that much tougher to appreciate the greatness of a 7′1 275 lb incredibly athletic dude beating the snot out of a bunch of 6′6 white guys.
Obviously Wilt was great, but a different era.
December 7th, 2007 at 12:45 pm
Kareem was the second best player in NBA history? He wasn’t even the second best player on his own team.
He did have a wee bit of a career before Magic came along.
December 7th, 2007 at 12:52 pm
“The Big Dipper was the best player in NBA history. Only Jabbar, the second best player, comes close. Many of you guys probably never even got to see the Dipper play. You don’t have a clue.”
Here’s my list for the top-ten basketball players in NBA history, which is based on both pure talent and statistical production
1. Michael Jordan
2. Wilt Chamberlain
3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
4. Larry Bird
5. Earvin “Magic” Johnson
6. Oscar Robertson
7. Jerry West
8. Shaquille O’Neal
9. Hakeem Olajuwon
10. Tim Duncan
It’ll be interesting to see how many people agree with me.
December 7th, 2007 at 1:00 pm
Ack!
would you guys just stop.
The rules are different, the players are different, and if you didn’t have a talented center you didn’t get into the finals. You couldn’t have a hole in your starting 5, let alone your top 7 players. Now you see all kinds of team get to the finals, maybe not win, but get there. Now you can have holes at pg because you took away the word gaurd from the rule book, now you can have a hole at center because the shots are planned to be shot 19.5 feet from the rim, being really tall and close to the rim doesn’t have the same value.
Take 1/3 of the teams away today, keep the talented players and place them on the rest of the teams. Allow handchecking by pg’s, take the 3 point line and that f-ing half circle fromunda the hoop, call traveling even more, allow the post players leverage with elbows, and no zone.
You’d see taller centers like the olden days, point GUARDS stip searching long distance shooters. It would be different. It was different.
I’m not 50, I’m not 30, but someplace in-between those ages and the “argument” of contextually absent isolation comparisons (a vacuum).
December 7th, 2007 at 1:01 pm
Jabbar won 6 championships and Wilt won 2. You don’t judge individual talent by titles won. If you want to do that then Bill Russel was the best player of all time with something like 11 titles. Winning titles is a lot of luck — you have to be on the best team, and even then, the best team does not always win the championship. There is no doubt that the Boston Celtics dynasty with Bill Russell was better than the teams Wilt was on most years. But that certainly does not mean that Bill Russell was better than Wilt. Wilt just killed Russel every time they played, but the Celtics usually won the playoff series.
December 7th, 2007 at 1:08 pm
Jabbar won 6 championships and Wilt won 2. You don’t judge individual talent by titles won. If you want to do that then Bill Russel was the best player of all time with something like 11 titles. Winning titles is a lot of luck — you have to be on the best team, and even then, the best team does not always win the championship. There is no doubt that the Boston Celtics dynasty with Bill Russell was better than the teams Wilt was on most years. But that certainly does not mean that Bill Russell was better than Wilt. Wilt just killed Russel every time they played, but the Celtics usually won the playoff series.
- Russell was surrounded by a great team and therefore one tons of championships. On the other hand Jordan and Chamberlain spent the majority of their prime as unarguabely the best player on their teams…during that time Jordan led his team to 6 championships. Wilt was never able to lead his team to a Chamionship (Jabar is questionable…it took Oscar Robertson and Magic Johnson to help him win a title)
December 7th, 2007 at 1:10 pm
Here’s my list for the top-ten basketball players in NBA history, which is based on both pure talent and statistical production
1. Michael Jordan
2. Wilt Chamberlain
3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
4. Larry Bird
5. Earvin “Magic” Johnson
6. Oscar Robertson
7. Jerry West
8. Shaquille O’Neal
9. Hakeem Olajuwon
10. Tim Duncan
I think you have a decent list. Obviously Bill Russell should be included, but you have an irrational dislike for his ability as well. I would place him on the list and remove Hakeem…
December 7th, 2007 at 1:10 pm
He did have a wee bit of a career before Magic came along.
Yes, however Kareem was never able to win an NBA title without the help of a dominant guard. He won lots of NBA MVP titles but it took the combination of a dominant big (Kareem) with the addition of a dominant guard (Big O in Milwaukee and Magic in LA) before Kareem won any NBA titles.
December 7th, 2007 at 1:11 pm
“Take 1/3 of the teams away today, keep the talented players and place them on the rest of the teams. Allow handchecking by pg’s, take the 3 point line and that f-ing half circle fromunda the hoop, call traveling even more, allow the post players leverage with elbows, and no zone.”
Also eliminate the concept of goaltending as we know it. They didn’t keep blocks as a stat in those days but pretty much any blocking of the ball in-flight was allowed. Also no 3 second or illegal defense violations, so a center can camp out in the paint long enough to pitch a tent and make S’mores.
December 7th, 2007 at 1:14 pm
“Obviously Wilt was great, but a different era.”
Yeah, I bet the Big Dipper would have a hard time scoring in this era against the likes of Nick Collison, Chris Kaman, Tyson Chandler, and the rest of today’s centers. Imagine Shaq in his prime but a lot better than Shaq. Then you have some small idea of what Wilt would do to today’s “centers.” I don’t think Tim Duncan would even attempt a shot in the paint if he were going against the Dipper in his prime.
Have any of you noticed that Jordan did not win any titles until 1990-91? Jabbar had retired by then. Jordan never won a title while Jabbar was in the league. In his first 6 seasons in the league Jordan couldn’t win a title because his team was not as good as the Lakers with Jabbar, or the great Celtics teams. He couldn’t even beat the Pistons in their 2 title years, even though those Pistons teams were not nearly as good as the Celtics or lakers title teams of the 80’s.
Jordan was great, but he could not beat the great teams of the 80’s. He had to wait until the Lakers and Cetlics got old, and Jabbar retired, before he could win anything.
December 7th, 2007 at 1:15 pm
Wilt led his teams to 2 championships — one with the 76′ers and one with the Lakers. What are you talking about?
December 7th, 2007 at 1:19 pm
Wilt led his teams to 2 championships — one with the 76′ers and one with the Lakers. What are you talking about?
- He was most definately not the leader of the Lakers team…Jerry West was their best player.
Have any of you noticed that Jordan did not win any titles until 1990-91? Jabbar had retired by then. Jordan never won a title while Jabbar was in the league. In his first 6 seasons in the league Jordan couldn’t win a title because his team was not as good as the Lakers with Jabbar, or the great Celtics teams. He couldn’t even beat the Pistons in their 2 title years, even though those Pistons teams were not nearly as good as the Celtics or lakers title teams of the 80’s.
- This is a really dumb argument…Jabbar was a shadow of his former self in the 1980s…to argue that he was the reason Jordan didn’t win a title is silly….
And let me get this straight…Jordan wins six titles (compared to Wilt’s two) in his career, but you are holding it against him for basically not winning a title every year he was in the league. Talk about a GREAT arguemnt…
December 7th, 2007 at 1:19 pm
Jordan can not compare to Wilt or Jabbar, because those 2 guys dominated the rebounds at both ends of the court, which Jordan never did, and those 2 guys dominated the paint defensively, which Jordan never did. Jordan only guarded on guy, albeir very well. Wilt and Jabbar kept the entier other team from getting any easy shots in the paint. A guard like Jordan is simply not able to have that enormous defensive impact on a game.
December 7th, 2007 at 1:20 pm
AKs list pretty good.
If the list truly is based on “talent and statistical production”, as much as I despise him as a player Karl Malone has to go on there somewhere and Stockton would probably have an even better case as the all time leader in assists and steals.
I don’t think you can put Tim Duncan and Olajuwon on the list over Stockton & Malone unless titles won are a bigger factor than you said before.
December 7th, 2007 at 1:21 pm
I’m saying Jordan did not have to compete against any teams even close to the Celtics dynasty that Wilt went up against most of his career.
December 7th, 2007 at 1:22 pm
“It’s worth a shot. If he ends up playing a game along the lines of T-Mac (who I also consider a pseudo PG), I think it’s a fair idea. Of course like most of the guards mentioned, you still need that big man to play off of that’s option #1 to be considered a contender, imo.” {Dick Tate}
That sums up my feelings toward Kevin Durant–albeit without my notorious vitriol. Sans a top-notch pivotman — who’s got the ability to be a number one option on offense and plays vigorous man-to-man interior defense (e.g., Tim Duncan, Dwight Howard, et al.) — playing beside him, it’ll be damn near impossible for Durant to win a NBA championship.
“Kareem was the second best player in NBA history? He wasn’t even the second best player on his own team.” {Steve}
You’re underrating Kareem Abdul-Jabbar’s peak years, as he was an absolute monster with the Milwaukee Bucks during the early-’70s. Once Abdul-Jabbar joined the Los Angeles Lakers during the mid-’70s, he solidified himself as an all-around complete player wherein he spent his prime years carrying a mediocre franchise.
After the Lakers selected Earvin “Magic” Johnson in the 1979 NBA Draft, Abdul-Jabbar regressed gracefully while sharing the spotlight throughout the Lakers’ “Showtime” dynasty of the ’80s. All things considered, Abdul-Jabbar had undeniably one of the greatest careers in NBA history.
December 7th, 2007 at 1:22 pm
I would take Hakeen and Duncan off the lists and replace them with Malone and Isiah Thomas.
December 7th, 2007 at 1:24 pm
On the first 3 Lakers title teams in the 80’s, Jabbar was their leading scorer and rebounder.
December 7th, 2007 at 1:27 pm
When Jordan was competing against the great Celtics and Lakers teams of the 80’s, Jordan did not win any titles, just as Wilt only won one title against the great Bill Russell Celtics teams.
December 7th, 2007 at 1:29 pm
Fred Roberts is the best NBA player ever.
December 7th, 2007 at 1:31 pm
When Jordan was competing against the great Celtics and Lakers teams of the 80’s, Jordan did not win any titles, just as Wilt only won one title against the great Bill Russell Celtics teams.
When did this discussion change from talking about the greatest PLAYERS of all time to the greatest TEAMS of all time?
December 7th, 2007 at 1:32 pm
Jordan can not compare to Wilt or Jabbar, because those 2 guys dominated the rebounds at both ends of the court, which Jordan never did, and those 2 guys dominated the paint defensively, which Jordan never did. Jordan only guarded on guy, albeir very well. Wilt and Jabbar kept the entier other team from getting any easy shots in the paint. A guard like Jordan is simply not able to have that enormous defensive impact on a game.
- The reason they “dominated” rebounds is because there were more shots taken and players missed more shots, which therefore created more opportunities for rebounds. This is a bad argument.
I’m saying Jordan did not have to compete against any teams even close to the Celtics dynasty that Wilt went up against most of his career.
- Jordan also did not play in a league of only 8 teams. If he played in a league where there were only 8 teams the talent level of the teams he played would’ve been better. However, his team would’ve also been more talented so the difference is really pointless. Jordan would’ve still clearly been the best player in the league.
On the first 3 Lakers title teams in the 80’s, Jabbar was their leading scorer and rebounder.
- Does that make him their best player? Magic Johnson was clearly the guy who put the team over the top and led the team. The fact that Magic could step into a playoff game and play Center and lead his team to victory proves he was the best player.
December 7th, 2007 at 1:33 pm
“AKs list pretty good.
If the list truly is based on “talent and statistical production”, as much as I despise him as a player Karl Malone has to go on there somewhere and Stockton would probably have an even better case as the all time leader in assists and steals.
I don’t think you can put Tim Duncan and Olajuwon on the list over Stockton & Malone unless titles won are a bigger factor than you said before.” {Steve}
Talent: David Robinson & Moses Malone
Production: Karl Malone & Charles Barkley
Talent & Production: Tim Duncan & Hakeem Olajuwon
December 7th, 2007 at 1:36 pm
BTW - if you look at basketball reference website, it shows that, much to may suprise, Wilt really did not have a dominant TS%. Not sure how reliable that data is, but it suggests he is overrated. His rebound rate was sky high though. On the other hand, Artis Gilmore had a tremendous TS% and a great rebound rate.
December 7th, 2007 at 1:37 pm
“Jordan can not compare to Wilt or Jabbar, because those 2 guys dominated the rebounds at both ends of the court, which Jordan never did, and those 2 guys dominated the paint defensively, which Jordan never did. ”
You’re comparing apples with oranges. Jordan wasn’t a center.
Jordan was a 9-time 1st team all-defense selection, Kareem was 11-time in a 3 year longer career … so not sure what you are trying to get at here. Holding MJs position against him is a pretty weak argument. Even in Kareems day there were far more adept scorers at the 2 guard position than at center.
“Jordan was great, but he could not beat the great teams of the 80’s. He had to wait until the Lakers and Cetlics got old, and Jabbar retired, before he could win anything. ”
The Celtics won 3 titles in the 80s decade.
Lakers won 4 in the same period.
Bulls won 6 titles in 8 years… if you’re trying to say that the Laker/Celtic teams were better …
December 7th, 2007 at 1:38 pm
“Fred Roberts is the best NBA player ever.” {McCoy}
Nope, it was Greg Kite.
December 7th, 2007 at 1:43 pm
“When Jordan was competing against the great Celtics and Lakers teams of the 80’s, Jordan did not win any titles, just as Wilt only won one title against the great Bill Russell Celtics teams. ”
OK ok … I got you now. That still seems to favor Jordan because by the time his team was good enough to beat the already established dynasty of the time he rolled off more titles than either Wilt or Kareem did.
But again, this is comparing different eras … everything … there is a vast difference between an 8 team league and a 29 team league with totally different players and rules.
December 7th, 2007 at 2:04 pm
“The competition in the NCAA is much, much more diluted nowadays than it was back during the early-’80s. Furthermore, as a freshman with the North Carolina Tar Heels during its 1981-1982 championship season, Michael Jordan had Sam Perkins and James Worthy as teammates.”
Give it a rest AK. Jordan was not the centerpiece of those teams….hate to break it to ya. At least not in the sense that they would have come up short without him. Those teams he played on at UNC were so stacked it’s disgusting. Even if the college ranks at this point are dilluted relative to the 80’s college bball….Durant isn’t playing college ball at 19, he is playing pro ball. Are you telling me that the competition Jordan scored 20 against in the 80’s at the college level was more intense than that of the game we see Durant competing in this year at the NBA level? I think not. This is a year by year thing folks….which has already been stated. The only players that we can begin to compare Durant to are the guys who came into the league at 18 and 19 as rookies.
Here is my challenge to all the AK’s of the world……How many 19 year old NBA rookies have averaged 19+ ppg in the History of the NBA?
December 7th, 2007 at 2:19 pm
Joshu, With Durant, it is not about points, it is about efficiency. He takes a lot of shots, he better score about 20 a game.
December 7th, 2007 at 2:44 pm
Give me a break. He takes a lot of shots because our team is terrible and he is forced to manufacture offense. Sure there are plenty of rookies with higher TS% than Durant, but their percentages would plummet if their teams depended on them to the extent the Sonics rely on Durant. It’s much easier to shoot a high % when you can afford to be selective about your shots. I’m not trying to say that Durant is a super efficient scorer, just that I think his % would be significantly better if he had ANYONE else on the floor with him capable of creating a shot.
December 7th, 2007 at 2:44 pm
“Joshu, With Durant, it is not about points, it is about efficiency. He takes a lot of shots, he better score about 20 a game.”
Spare me, guys don’t walk in perfect you have to let them develop.
Statistic of some interest, Kevin Durant right now has a better PPS his rookie year than LeBron James did.
Three years from now he’ll be taking 3 more shots a game and averaging about 8 more PPG.
Expectations are insane.
December 7th, 2007 at 3:00 pm
“Here is my challenge to all the AK’s of the world……How many 19 year old NBA rookies have averaged 19+ ppg in the History of the NBA?”
Carmelo Anthony could answer your question. He averaged twenty-one points, six rebounds, and almost three assists per game while shooting a pedestrian forty-two percent as a 19-year old rookie in the 2003-2004 regular season. However, Carmelo had better players around him though I would contend that Carmelo deserves a lot of credit for becoming the best player for a playoff team in his rookie season. Carmelo’s problem is that he hasn’t demonstrated the improvement that one would expect from his rookie as his career playoff record is 4-16. His lack of playoff success could change this year if the Nuggets continue playing great defense as they are the second best defense in the NBA in terms of efficiency. Contrary to what is commonly believed about Denver, the Nuggets are struggling so far because they have a mediocre offense.
December 7th, 2007 at 3:12 pm
You people saying Duncan doesn’t deserve to make the list ARE ON CRACK!!!
I swear, Duncan is probably the most under-appreciated player in the history of the NBA. It really pisses me off how little credit he gets and how little the fans appreciated him.
In my opinion he’s the best power forward in NBA history, and he would start on my ‘best of all time’ team.
There is nothing he doesn’t do well on the basketball court aside from perhaps free-throws (and he is adequate at that). On top of that, he’s the ultimate team player, a great leader, a great competitor, and a winner.
This starting lineup would beat any other you could run out there:
Bill Russell
Tim Duncan
Larry Bird
Michael Jordan
Magic Johnson
December 7th, 2007 at 3:18 pm
Duncan is 1-3 against Shaq in the playoffs this decade. In my opinion, Shaq at his peak was a much more dominant player than Duncan and possibly more dominant than any player in NBA history with the exception of Jordan. Duncan does not have an edge over Shaq in terms of the number of championships as they both have four. Shaq has also playedin six NBA Finals with three different teams. I’m not sure if Duncan would have been able to do the same if he had gone to Orlando when he became a free agent in 2001. Duncan has also been a part of the three-lowest rated NBA Finals this decade.
December 7th, 2007 at 3:20 pm
Anthony and James are the only guys to average 19+ pts at 19 in history of league. 19 yrs olds in the league are rare though more common recently. 7 others did 19+ pts at 20 mostly as rookies. The 2 19 yr olds had the lowest TS%s-
Anthony 51% James 49%. Durant just a bit under 50% right now on TS%.
Adrian Dantley scored 20 at 20 as a rookie and shot 60% TS%, the highest in the group. Kobe at 55% in his year 3.
The list
http://tinyurl.com/267zum
December 7th, 2007 at 3:21 pm
There is no real way to compare Jordan to Durant right now. So, we can all have opinions but they will all be speculative. I have an opinion but it is based more on what I think than on anything that can be proved.
IMO, it is unfair to compare any current player to Jordan in a favorable way with maybe the exception of Melo and Lebron who are not in his league yet.
December 7th, 2007 at 3:24 pm
In fact, if the Celtics win the championship this season (and that may not be too big of an “if” according to John Hollinger’s playoff predictor model), an argument could be as to whether Duncan is better than Kevin Garnett. Duncan has had three hall-of-fame teammates while Kevin Garnett has never played with one until this season. The Garnett-Duncan debate is similar to the Brady-Manning debate. The question is interesting in my opinion and could be answered by who is holding the Larry O’Brien trophy these next two seasons.
December 7th, 2007 at 3:24 pm
“Carmelo Anthony could answer your question. He averaged twenty-one points, six rebounds, and almost three assists per game while shooting a pedestrian forty-two percent as a 19-year old rookie in the 2003-2004 regular season.” {Alex Chan}
Carmelo Anthony, who’s the guy that I used as an example to project Kevin Durant’s rookie output prior to this season, is the right answer to Joshu@’s question. Nonetheless, Anthony and Kevin Durant are stylistically different — as Anthony resembles Glenn Robinson, while Durant mirrors Tracy McGrady — yet, that doesn’t discount the similarities in their production.
December 7th, 2007 at 3:27 pm
McCoy you are right Chamberlin’s FG% isnt eye popping most years (it is in a few) but I checked a couple of his early and mid career years and it was 5-8 % points higher than league average (without 3 pt shot, etc.)
December 7th, 2007 at 3:29 pm
Duncan is 2-3 against Shaq in the playoffs, and it would be 3-2 if Fisher doesn’t hit that freaking miracle buzzer shot.
They may have the same amount of titles, but it’s pretty likely Duncan will have more in the end, as Shaq is pretty much washed up at this point and Duncan is still playing at a championship level.
I don’t think you should penalize Duncan for staying with the same team his whole career. You have to consider that he’s done it with two entirely different groups of teammates.
I also take issue with your definition of ‘dominant.’ Shaq may have been an amazing physical force, but Duncan dominates just as much, just in a more subtle way. The Spurs begin and end with Duncan.
I don’t give a rat’s -ss about the TV ratings… it just shows you how utterly ignorant the average NBA fan is about what good basketball is.
December 7th, 2007 at 3:30 pm
Carmelo Anthony could answer your question. He averaged twenty-one points, six rebounds, and almost three assists per game while shooting a pedestrian forty-two percent as a 19-year old rookie in the 2003-2004 regular season. However, Carmelo had better players around him though I would contend that Carmelo deserves a lot of credit for becoming the best player for a playoff team in his rookie season. Carmelo’s problem is that he hasn’t demonstrated the improvement that one would expect from his rookie as his career playoff record is 4-16. His lack of playoff success could change this year if the Nuggets continue playing great defense as they are the second best defense in the NBA in terms of efficiency. Contrary to what is commonly believed about Denver, the Nuggets are struggling so far because they have a mediocre offense.
- Anthony actually is much better suited for the College and International game. Still think he is a bit overrated though.
I’m not sure if Duncan would have been able to do the same if he had gone to Orlando when he became a free agent in 2001. Duncan has also been a part of the three-lowest rated NBA Finals this decade.
- Hmm the first part is pure opinion. Based on the fact he would have been able to relax in the weaker league Im not sure he would’ve had any less success. Your second point is completely irrevelevant.
In fact, if the Celtics win the championship this season (and that may not be too big of an “if” according to John Hollinger’s playoff predictor model), an argument could be as to whether Duncan is better than Kevin Garnett. Duncan has had three hall-of-fame teammates while Kevin Garnett has never played with one until this season. The Garnett-Duncan debate is similar to the Brady-Manning debate. The question is interesting in my opinion and could be answered by who is holding the Larry O’Brien trophy these next two seasons.
- Wow…please explain to me who the HoF teammates that Duncan has played with. I mean he did play with David Robinson when he was on the steep decline of his career. Parker and Ginobolli are not HoF players yet. Garnett would have to dominate the league for about 4 years to even get into the same league as Duncan. Just another bad argument.
December 7th, 2007 at 3:36 pm
“You people saying Duncan doesn’t deserve to make the list ARE ON CRACK!!!
I swear, Duncan is probably the most under-appreciated player in the history of the NBA. It really pisses me off how little credit he gets and how little the fans appreciated him. ”
Duncan is a great player; but using the criteria specified better than Karl Malone or Stockton? Not yet.
December 7th, 2007 at 3:38 pm
An argument could be made that Garnett is one of the biggest losers of all time. How long did it take him to make it out of the first round of the playoffs? It’s a cop-out to say that Garnett never had teammates. I mean, Duncan has played with guys like Avery Johnson, Malik Rose, Steve Kerr, Steve Smith, etc.
From Duncan’s first three championships, he only played with one other player that made an All-Star game, Manu Ginobili in 04-05.
Don’t get me wrong, Garnett is a fantastic player, but please don’t mention him in the same breath as Duncan.
December 7th, 2007 at 3:39 pm
Big_Worm, I used the word “this decade” to describe Shaq’s encounter with Duncan from the year 2000 and beyond. 1-3 is accurate under that interpretation though your intepretation would also suffice.
Myk, Parker and Ginboli are hall-of-fame players in my opinion. In the very least, they are significantly better than Latrell Sprewell and Sam Cassell, the two most talented teammates that Garnett has had in his career. Garnett doesn’t have to dominate this league for another four years to “even get into the same league as Duncan.” Garnett already has dominated this league. There’s more to evaluation that just looking at the number of championships.
I concede that the arguments I advanced in my last two posts were complete opinion with the exception of my point about Tim Duncan’s abysmal television ratings. I find ratings extremely relevant but you are free to disagree. My point about the Nuggets playing great defense but struggling offensively is opinion as well but is well supported by the efficiency statistics from this season.
December 7th, 2007 at 3:40 pm
Duncan is a great player; but using the criteria specified better than Karl Malone or Stockton? Not yet.
What criteria is that? Years playing with a HOF teammate without ever winning an NBA title?
Duncan wins in pretty much every comparison with Malone aside from scoring average and miles driven in an 18-wheeler.
December 7th, 2007 at 3:40 pm
“There is no real way to compare Jordan to Durant right now. So, we can all have opinions but they will all be speculative. I have an opinion but it is based more on what I think than on anything that can be proved.
IMO, it is unfair to compare any current player to Jordan in a favorable way with maybe the exception of Melo and Lebron who are not in his league yet.” {malaman41}
In my humble opinion, Kevin Durant and Carmelo Anthony will never be close to reaching the pinnacle that’s been established by Michael Jordan. LeBron James’ potential apex, however, is somewhere around or beyond Earvin “Magic” Johnson and Oscar Robertson’s career plateaus–but it’s too early to tell if he’ll get there.
December 7th, 2007 at 3:42 pm
“Anthony actually is much better suited for the College and International game. Still think he is a bit overrated though.”
I agree with this point. But you and I have no support for this argument at all as it is pure opinion in the same way that my argument that Duncan may not be that much greater than Garnett if Garnett were to win a championship this season is complete opinion.
I would also place Malone ahead of Duncan. Steve seems to agree that there is more to evaluation than just championships.
December 7th, 2007 at 3:43 pm
Duncan is a great player; but using the criteria specified better than Karl Malone or Stockton? Not yet.
- Why…because Malone accumulated more points? That is the only item that Malone truly comes out ahead of Duncan…all other stats are similar (relative to age) and Duncan is vastly more superior when it comes to winning…
There’s more to evaluation that just looking at the number of championships.
- Sure…but even overall winning percentage. Duncan would not allow his team to not even make the playoffs, which Garnett did for two years in a row.
I find ratings extremely relevant but you are free to disagree.
- But why…what on earth does ratings have to do with a players skills…it makes no sense…it also doesn’t even take into account the changing in environments….
December 7th, 2007 at 3:45 pm
I agree with this point. But you and I have no support for this argument at all as it is pure opinion in the same way that my argument that Duncan may not be that much greater than Garnett if Garnett were to win a championship this season is complete opinion.
- Which part isn’t supported? The fact that Anthony was the second best player behind Kobe on the USA team seems to prove that fact pretty well. In the International game Melo can play the four and create significant mismatches…in the NBA he can’t and his jumper doesn’t allow him to be a dominant player.
December 7th, 2007 at 3:46 pm
I question your claim that Tim Duncan would have made the playoffs last season if Randy Foye and Ricky Davis were his best teammates.
December 7th, 2007 at 3:53 pm
“Duncan is a great player; but using the criteria specified better than Karl Malone or Stockton? Not yet.” {Steve}
“What criteria is that? Years playing with a HOF teammate without ever winning an NBA title?
Duncan wins in pretty much every comparison with Malone aside from scoring average and miles driven in an 18-wheeler.” {Big Worm}
Notwithstanding NBA Championship rings, Tim Duncan should be ranked ahead of Karl Malone based solely on defense. I still stand by my 8 through 10 rankings of Shaquille O’Neal, Hakeem Olajuwon, and Duncan, with David Robinson and Karl Malone — as well as Elgin Baylor, Julius Erving, and Moses Malone — being placed somewhere in the top-fifteen on the list.
December 7th, 2007 at 3:54 pm
Comparison: Malone vs. Duncan
Post up game: Duncan
Running floor: Malone
Outside shooting Malone
Free throw shooting: Malone
Driving: even
Passing: even
Rebounding: Duncan
Defense on ball: Duncan
Defense off ball: Duncan
Shot blocking: Duncan
Championships: Duncan
Aside from the titles, the huge edge Duncan has over Malone is with his defense. 10 straight all-defense teams, compared to Malone’s two. Duncan is also a dominant shot blocker, which Malone never was.
December 7th, 2007 at 3:54 pm
“I question your claim that Tim Duncan would have made the playoffs last season if Randy Foye and Ricky Davis were his best teammates.”
I think he would have, but that’s just me.
December 7th, 2007 at 3:56 pm
The Hall of Fame should encompass more than just a player’s contributions on the basketball court. I also take into consideration the impact that a player made to the overall sport. Duncan’s television ratings suggest that he hasn’t made any impact outside of the basketball court. After all, the middle part of this decade has belonged to him and yet some have deemed it the worst five years of the NBA since 1980.
December 7th, 2007 at 4:00 pm
“What criteria is that? Years playing with a HOF teammate without ever winning an NBA title?
Duncan wins in pretty much every comparison with Malone aside from scoring average and miles driven in an 18-wheeler. ”
myk said: “Why…because Malone accumulated more points? That is the only item that Malone truly comes out ahead of Duncan…all other stats are similar (relative to age) and Duncan is vastly more superior when it comes to winning…”
The only criteria specified according to our pal AK are “pure talent and statistical production.” If you want to change it to winning or something else then we have a different discussion… but Malone will still come out pretty good on that end … his teams have something like a career 65 or 70% winning percentage.
Probably can’t prove talent either way; both guys are obviously talented players, but Duncan isn’t in Malone’s league yet as far as raw statistical production; he just isn’t.
I noted too that nobody has even tried to refute Stockton, probably because you can’t … Tim Duncan is a great player, there is no doubt of that… but Stockton’s one of the three best guys ever to play his position, period. If you’re making a list of the top 10 players of all time, (again using the criteria that was specified in the original post, not your own personal preferences) Stockton should be on that list, IMO. And I hate John Stockton.
December 7th, 2007 at 4:05 pm
Alex - you’re grasping at straws.
This is the thing that drives me nuts about how the fans act towards Duncan:
Everybody complains about what is happening to the game today - players don’t know the fundamentals, it’s like playground ball, there are a bunch of thugs and gangsters, everyone is about money and personal stats, none of the players have any respect for the game, etc. etc.
Well, along comes Tim Duncan. Intelligent, well-behaved, plays the game the right way, learns the fundamentals, great in the community, wins championships, stays with one team his whole career, takes less money to help his team, etc. He breaks the stereotype of the selfish superstar that everbody says they hate.
What do the fans do? They say he’s boring, they underrate him, the even go so far as to call him ‘Uncle Tim’ because he doesn’t live up to the usual nba thug stereotype.
We’re talking about one of the absolute best players to ever grace the NBA, not only that but one of the best people, yet he’s one of the most unloved superstars in NBA history. It’s downright depressing.
December 7th, 2007 at 4:08 pm
“Comparison: Malone vs. Duncan
Post up game: Duncan
Running floor: Malone
Outside shooting Malone
Free throw shooting: Malone
Driving: even
Passing: even
Rebounding: Duncan
Defense on ball: Duncan
Defense off ball: Duncan
Shot blocking: Duncan
Championships: Duncan ”
Again - these are not the criteria specified in the original post. Two different discussions.
I’m curious …exactly what is your rating system for things like “running the floor” and “on ball/off defense”? Do you have something numerical or is it just purely anecdotal?
December 7th, 2007 at 4:08 pm
It doesn’t matter that there were more rebounds available when Wilt played than when Jordan played. That is totally irrelevant. The fact is that Wilt led the NBA in rebounding in 11 different seasons. Jordan never came close to leading the league in rebounding.
Wilt led the league in rebounding when he was 36 years old in 72-73 at 18.6 rebounds per game! That same season Jabbar was in his prime at 26 years old, and Jabbar averaged 16.1 rebounds per game that season (4th in NBA). That season, Wilt, at 36, was going against the other top rebounders that year, including Nate Thurmond, Dave Cowens, Jabbar, Wes Unseld, Bob Lanier, Elvin Hayes, Paul Silas, Willis Reed and Spencer Haywood. And at 36 years old, Wilt still out-rebounded all those guys and everyone else. Put that in your pipe and smoke it.
Wilt led the league in FG% 9 different seasons. Jordan never led the league in FG%.
I’m sure Wilt led the league in blocked shots several seasons. However, they did not keep track of blocked shots during Wilt’s career, so we don’t know. But Wilt blocked many more shots per game than Jordan.
Centers are much more valuable players than guards for that reason — centers can dominate rebounding, and shut down the paint defensively. Guards can not. That is why the best players in basketball are the dominant centers — because they dominate rebounding and shot blocking, whereas guards do not.
And whoever said Jordan started beating the great Celtics and Lakers teams of the 80’s — No he didn’t. By the time Jordan won his first title, Jabbar had retired, and the Lakers were no longer a great team. Same with the Celtics. They were past their primes and were no longer a great team. That is why the Pistons won two titles — because the Celtics and Lakers got old and were no longer great teams.
There was no great team in the 90’s to challenge Jordan, like there was the Boston to challenge Wilt.
December 7th, 2007 at 4:09 pm
The only criteria specified according to our pal AK are “pure talent and statistical production.” If you want to change it to winning or something else then we have a different discussion… but Malone will still come out pretty good on that end … his teams have something like a career 65 or 70% winning percentage.
Probably can’t prove talent either way; both guys are obviously talented players, but Duncan isn’t in Malone’s league yet as far as raw statistical production; he just isn’t.
Talent is subjective. In my opinion Duncan is way more talented than Malone. I would even argue that Malone did more with less.
Regarding winning, try to argue against this fact:
Since drafting Tim Duncan, the San Antonio Spurs have the highest winning percentage of any professional team in any of the four major sports (Basketball, Football, Baseball, Hockey).
beat that.
Regarding stats, what stats are we talking about? Rebounding? Blocked shots? Duncan wins both of those.
Regarding Stockton, nobody is talking about him because he plays a different position. Still I guarantee you that 100 out of 100 NBA GMs, if given the choice, would take Duncan over Stockton.
December 7th, 2007 at 4:12 pm
Big_Worm, your counter-argument is essentially that the fans are not smart enough to appreciate Tim Duncan. I give more credit to the American public. You and I disagree as to what meaning should be attached to those ratings. You make good points, though I would advise caution with the argument that the Spurs would have beat the Lakers in 2004 if Fisher hadn’t hit the miracle shot. I could make the same argument in last year’s playoffs for the Suns had Stern not suspended Amare for Game 5.
Karl Malone is the Dan Marino of the NBA. Is Tom Brady ahead of Marino? Some would say yes though I’m sure others would disagree. I’m curious as to where people would place Kobe amongst the greats of the game.
December 7th, 2007 at 4:14 pm
The only stat that Malone beats Duncan in is TS% - 57.7% v. 55.4%, Duncan is equally better in rebounding as Malone, and his offensive/defensive rating differential is better by a fair amount also. All of this is per Basketball Reference web site. The stats suggest it is pretty close, but in the end Duncan comes out as better.
December 7th, 2007 at 4:15 pm
“What do the fans do? They say he’s boring, they underrate him, the even go so far as to call him ‘Uncle Tim’ because he doesn’t live up to the usual nba thug stereotype. ”
How the fans react to a particular player has no bearing on that player’s value, at all.
Isn’t it usually true that the best players in any given sport are also the most reviled?
December 7th, 2007 at 4:15 pm
I noted too that nobody has even tried to refute Stockton, probably because you can’t ……….but Stockton’s one of the three best guys ever to play his position, period.
Technically, if there are 5 designated positions on court and Stockton is, lets say, the third best PG to every play the game, theoretically that could make him the 15th best player of all time, if you believed the top three at every other position were greater than him, which would/could exclude him from a top 10 discussion.
Just saying…..
December 7th, 2007 at 4:18 pm
“Regarding Stockton, nobody is talking about him because he plays a different position. Still I guarantee you that 100 out of 100 NBA GMs, if given the choice, would take Duncan over Stockton.”
Again - that’s not the argument. It’s top 10 players accoridng to talent (which I agree is purely subjective) and statistical production. How many GMs would take what player or what position is more intrinsically valuable has nothing to do with either of those.
December 7th, 2007 at 4:19 pm
I’m curious …exactly what is your rating system for things like “running the floor” and “on ball/off defense”? Do you have something numerical or is it just purely anecdotal?
My own subjective opinion… open to debate of course.
December 7th, 2007 at 4:22 pm
“Technically, if there are 5 designated positions on court and Stockton is, lets say, the third best PG to every play the game, theoretically that could make him the 15th best player of all time, if you believed the top three at every other position were greater than him, which would/could exclude him from a top 10 discussion.
Just saying….. ”
No, that’s all very true … personally I’d put Stockton as the #2 PG all time behind Magic, but again we’re getting into intrinsic value of positions which is a different discussion altogether.
December 7th, 2007 at 4:25 pm
Here’s a shocking stat. The Sonics are top ten in defensive FG %.
December 7th, 2007 at 4:25 pm
Not all championship runs are created equal in my opinion. Shaq’s three-peat from 2000-2002 was a sight to behold. Winning back-to-back (something that Duncan has not done) is difficult enough but to maintain the mental edge to win the championship three straight years is incredible. I consider that run much more impressive than four titles in nine years. The degree of difficulty with winning consecutive championships is why I would also place Hakeem ahead of Duncan and would also place the Dream ahead of Malone.
December 7th, 2007 at 4:27 pm
It’s time to expand the list.
1. Michael Jordan
2. Wilt Chamberlain
3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
4. Larry Bird
5. Earvin “Magic” Johnson
6. Oscar Robertson
7. Jerry West
8. Shaquille O’Neal
9. Hakeem Olajuwon
10. Tim Duncan
11. Elgin Baylor
12. Julius Erving
13. Karl Malone
14. Moses Malone
15. David Robinson
16. Charles Barkley
17. Kobe Bryant
I’m stuck at seventeen guys.
“I noted too that nobody has even tried to refute Stockton, probably because you can’t … Tim Duncan is a great player, there is no doubt of that… but Stockton’s one of the three best guys ever to play his position, period. If you’re making a list of the top 10 players of all time, (again using the criteria that was specified in the original post, not your own personal preferences) Stockton should be on that list, IMO. And I hate John Stockton. {Steve}
Because of my bias toward interior players, I’ll reward a multidimensional pivotman who’s averaging a career of 21.8/11.9/3.2 over a point guard who averaged a career of 16.5/3.4/13.2 without thinking twice about it.
December 7th, 2007 at 4:28 pm
With bigtime scorers there is often a tradeoff between scoring and TS% (different than FG shooting percentage).
Jordan #1 scoring per game (Wilt #2) but 68th alltime on TS%. 68th alltime on TS% at almost 57% is still good and above Wilt’s 55%.
Bigtime scorers on very successful teams generally should get lots of respect. Bigtime scorers on less succesful teams, somewhat or a lot less depending on particulars.
For me I can’t ultimately rate players before 1980 to after and I don’t feel a strong need to.
December 7th, 2007 at 4:31 pm
“Because of my bias toward interior players, I’ll reward a multidimensional pivotman who’s averaging a career of 21.8/11.9/3.2 over a point guard who averaged a career of 16.5/3.4/13.2 without thinking twice about it. ”
If your list is admittedly biased towards interior players then it’s not truly a list of the 10 best players and therefore worthless.
December 7th, 2007 at 4:31 pm
Shaq’s 3-peat isn’t as impressive when you consider he had Kobe with him. Parker and Ginobili are good, but they ain’t Kobe good.
December 7th, 2007 at 4:33 pm
Ajw that is a good find. It is raw defensive fg%. On eFG% it is 13th. And it was a lot worse 5 games ago. Sonic opponents have shot poorly recently. How much is due to Sonics defense and how much was because they shot poorly on their own is debatable- until more games come and either show this surge as a lucky stretch for Sonics or it continues and shows defensive system clicking in.
December 7th, 2007 at 4:33 pm
The only criteria specified according to our pal AK are “pure talent and statistical production.” If you want to change it to winning or something else then we have a different discussion… but Malone will still come out pretty good on that end … his teams have something like a career 65 or 70% winning percentage.
- But you are basically saying statistical production = point production if you are saying Duncan is not equal to Malone. That simply isn’t true. Duncan his equal or better in all other categories.
It doesn’t matter that there were more rebounds available when Wilt played than when Jordan played. That is totally irrelevant. The fact is that Wilt led the NBA in rebounding in 11 different seasons. Jordan never came close to leading the league in rebounding.
- Yes it does matter…you go on to quote that he had 18.6! Rebounds per game as if he was some great rebounding player. No, he just had more chances to rebound so his numbers are inflated. Getting 18.6 rebounds is no different than a player getting 12 rebounds in the game today. The increased pace of play also led to artificially inflate his scoring statistics…So stop saying that his numbers are somehow justified or at the very least not comparable to Jordan’s performance at his peak.
That season, Wilt, at 36, was going against the other top rebounders that year, including Nate Thurmond, Dave Cowens, Jabbar, Wes Unseld, Bob Lanier, Elvin Hayes, Paul Silas, Willis Reed and Spencer Haywood.
- LOL…how on earth is the relevant. This doesn’t some how justify the large rebounding numbers you keep quoting. .
I’m sure Wilt led the league in blocked shots several seasons. However, they did not keep track of blocked shots during Wilt’s career, so we don’t know. But Wilt blocked many more shots per game than Jordan
- See…Russel, Bill
Centers are much more valuable players than guards for that reason — centers can dominate rebounding, and shut down the paint defensively. Guards can not. That is why the best players in basketball are the dominant centers — because they dominate rebounding and shot blocking, whereas guards do not.
- Pretty interesting claim you make her considering Jordan was able to lead his team to more championships than any of the great Centers you’ve listed. So Jordan was somehow able to do all the things that you claim only Centers can do…but better…and lead his team to more titles. Your argument is incredibly weak.
December 7th, 2007 at 4:40 pm
Not all championship runs are created equal in my opinion. Shaq’s three-peat from 2000-2002 was a sight to behold. Winning back-to-back (something that Duncan has not done) is difficult enough but to maintain the mental edge to win the championship three straight years is incredible. I consider that run much more impressive than four titles in nine years. The degree of difficulty with winning consecutive championships is why I would also place Hakeem ahead of Duncan and would also place the Dream ahead of Malone.
- Your hated of Duncan is almost as amusing as AKs hatred of Durant. Its so off base and requires so much straw grasping it is amusing.
If your list is admittedly biased towards interior players then it’s not truly a list of the 10 best players and therefore worthless.
- I’m pretty sure that the reason that Malone or Stockton do not get much credit in all time lists is because their stats were so interdependent that most people cannot imagine that they would have had similar careers if it wasn’t for one or the other they would not have accumulated those stats. Basically, I dont feel like either of them were really dominant…just stat accumulaters
December 7th, 2007 at 4:40 pm
Alex, in one post you’re stating that Championships don’t matter so much when judging a player, and in the next post you’re saying Shaq and Hakeem have the edge on Duncan because they won back to back titles. Wanna make up your mind on that one?
At any rate, Duncan will make it all moot when he goes back to back this year. How does five titles in 10 years sound? That will also give him the edge on Shaq in total titles.
December 7th, 2007 at 4:41 pm
On overall defensive efficiency Sonics are at a new high 19th but still almost 2 pts per 100 posessions worse than average. 8th worst on getting steals and 11th worst at committing fouls are still spots needing improvement.
December 7th, 2007 at 4:41 pm
AK - as much as you seem to value players with defensive ability, why is Russel not on your list?
December 7th, 2007 at 4:42 pm
“If your list is admittedly biased towards interior players then it’s not truly a list of the 10 best players and therefore worthless.” {Steve}
It’s not totally biased toward interior players, as Michael Jordan is arguably the greatest player in NBA history and Bill Russell should be held accountable for being an ancillary option on offense throughout his entire career. I, therefore, stand by the objective criteria of pure talent and statistical production when sorting out the list’s order; however, that puts point guards at a disadvantage against post players and swingmen, since they have less of an impact on the game.
December 7th, 2007 at 4:43 pm
AK, I think Isiah Thomas, John Stockton, and Bill Russell could round out your list. Of course, I would have Kevin Garnett much higher and perhaps he’ll begin to get the recognition as one of the game’s greats if the Celtics win the championship this season. It would be interesting to determine where the less transcendent stars of the Jordan era (e.g. Patrick Ewing and Reggie Miller) and the post-Jordan era stand amongst the greats (e.g. Payton, Kidd, Iverson). LeBron James and Dwight Howard will one day factor into this dicussion. Hopefully, Kevin Durant will as well.
December 7th, 2007 at 4:46 pm
There are 10 games where Sonics held opponent to below 45% raw FG%. A couple of these they gave up big nights on 3s. But the main reason they haven’t won more gamesis the “let’s focus on running” offense which ranks 29th on efficiency.
December 7th, 2007 at 4:51 pm
The problem with Duncan is that he makes it look so easy. You can watch him go for 25/12 and not notice that he was dominating the game. He also does it as the #64 player in mpg. He also is not right at the top in playoff minutes played. Duncan maybe be boring but he is incredible.
December 7th, 2007 at 4:55 pm
The problem that many have on this blog is that people do not read posts carefully enough and draw incorrect inferences. I’m guilty of it as well from time-to-time. I only claimed that the number of championships is not the only way to evaluate a player’s greatness. However, if you are comparing players with championships (e.g. Duncan vs. Shaq and Hakeem), then I thought it would be worth comparing their championships.
Myk, since when does “I don’t think Duncan is as good as Hakeem, Malone, or Shaq” constitute hatred? Am I grasping at more straws than when you claimed that the USCIS had no way of proving that a noncitizen lied about his age to obtain a non-immigrant visa under 8 U.S.C. Section 101(a)(15)(O)?
December 7th, 2007 at 5:01 pm
“I’m pretty sure that the reason that Malone or Stockton do not get much credit in all time lists is because their stats were so interdependent that most people cannot imagine that they would have had similar careers if it wasn’t for one or the other they would not have accumulated those stats. Basically, I dont feel like either of them were really dominant…just stat accumulaters ”
Come on man that’s ludicrous. So now some people’s stats are more valuable than others? Can I make that same claim about Jordan and Pippen? Jordan’s just a stat accumulater because he had Pip watching his back? Or Duncan and Ginobili? or Duncan and Parker?
Please explain how having the all-time record for steals is related to having Karl Malone on your team. It’s a remarkable accomplishment in any case. Add to that that the same guy has the all-time assist record … and it’s only because he had Malone on his team?
Both guys had long careers but it’s not as if either one played long past their prime as Kareem kind of did and Moses Malone unquestionably did; their statistical achievements aren’t merely the product of long careers…these guys were both very, very good for a very, very long time.
It’s really funny defending them in this thread, because I hated both of them and rooted against them every time I saw em on TV…. but at the same time to deny their greatness as players is more indicative of personal bias than rational analysis.
December 7th, 2007 at 5:02 pm
“AK - as much as you seem to value players with defensive ability, why is Russel not on your list?” {Big_Worm}
I oftentimes promote Jeff Foster, Joel Pryzbilla, and Radoslav Nesterovic — as all of whom are outstanding one-on-one low-post defenders — but that’s ’cause they excel as specified role players. Regarding the best players in NBA history, it takes success on both ends of the court to get recognition from me.
Anyway, here’s how Russell stacks up against some of his contemporaries.
Bob Pettit: 25.3 PER & 51.1% TSP
Neil Johnston: 24.6 PER & 53.4% TSP
Dolph Schayes: 21.9 PER & 48.7% TSP
Bill Russell: 18.9 PER & 47.1% TSP
“AK, I think Isiah Thomas, John Stockton, and Bill Russell could round out your list. Of course, I would have Kevin Garnett much higher and perhaps he’ll begin to get the recognition as one of the game’s greats if the Celtics win the championship this season. It would be interesting to determine where the less transcendent stars of the Jordan era (e.g. Patrick Ewing and Reggie Miller) and the post-Jordan era stand amongst the greats (e.g. Payton, Kidd, Iverson). LeBron James and Dwight Howard will one day factor into this dicussion. Hopefully, Kevin Durant will as well.” {Alex Chan}
Yeah, Bill Russell, John Stockton, and Isiah Thomas are good choices to finish up the list. It’ll be interesting to see if Kevin Garnett can make any headway, as his opportunity to shine is at the forefront. I doubt that the Boston Celtics have enough depth to win a title; that’s just my opinion, though.
December 7th, 2007 at 5:03 pm
alex - criticizing Duncan for television ratings is grasping at straws. Arguing that back to back titles are more impressive than 4 in 9 years is grasping at straws. Comparing Karl Malone to Dan Marino is grasping at straws. Claiming that Parker and Ginobili are HOF players is grasping at straws. Saying that Garnett is better than Duncan is grasping at straws.
December 7th, 2007 at 5:10 pm
Big_Worm, I can’t stress enough that you have to read the language of the posts more carefully. I never said that Garnett was better than Duncan. I qualified it with saying Garnett needed to win a championship with the Celtics. Second, I said that Duncan may not be better than Garnett. That does not mean that I said Garnett is better than Duncan. The only inference that could be drawn is that I believe the two to be equals at this this point in their careers.
December 7th, 2007 at 5:11 pm
An “All Time” All-NBA:
1st team:
C - Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
PF - Tim Duncan
SF - Larry Bird
SG - Michael Jordan
PG - “Magic” Johnson
2nd team:
C - Hakeem Olajuwon
PF - Kevin Garnett
SF - Scottie Pippen
SG - Jerry West
PG - Oscar Robertson
3rd team:
C - Bill Russell
PF - Charles Barkley
SF - Julius Erving
SG - Kobe Bryant
PG - John Stockton
And I must say I really don’t understand how anyone can argue with Jordan being the best player that has ever played the game. He probably was the world’s greatest athlete ever…!
December 7th, 2007 at 5:33 pm
Myk: Just to see if you have any idea at all of what you are talking about or if you are totally clueless, please answer these questions for me.
1) Was Wilt Chamberlain a vastly superior rebounder to Michael Jordan, or not?
2) Was Wilt Chamberlain a vastly superior shot-blocker to Michael Jordan, or not?
3) Did you ever see Wilt Chamberlain or Bill Russell play? (I did, many times. And, although Russel was a great shot-blocker, I bet Chamberlain blocked even more shots than Bill Russel).
December 7th, 2007 at 5:59 pm
I think the Karl Malone/Dan Marino comparison is pretty good.
I still put my KM ornament on my Christmas tree.
December 7th, 2007 at 7:25 pm
Jeff Says:
And I must say I really don’t understand how anyone can argue with Jordan being the best player that has ever played the game. He probably was the world’s greatest athlete ever…!
He’d probably have won a dozen titles in a row if he played with Wilt the Stilt (Who somehow didn’t make your list?).
Alex Chan Says:
I never said that Garnett was better than Duncan.
Let’s just hope he’s better the ratings game.
December 7th, 2007 at 11:44 pm
Since he was mentioned earlier in the thread, i’ll mention that Chris Paul had 43 points tonight.
December 8th, 2007 at 12:10 am
Alex Chan, u make a good point that people(myself included) need to read the posts more carefully…
December 8th, 2007 at 12:50 am
Dick Tate:
Wilt didn’t make my list simply because there were three other centers who I personally think were better than him.
He’d probably come in fourth. Probably…
(and, yes, I’ve seen him play)*
December 8th, 2007 at 4:18 pm
The following is an extended list showing how the most overrated player in NBA history, Bill Russell (18.9 PER & 47.1% TSP), stacked up on offense against some of his contemporaries and fellow teammates.
CONTEMPORARIES
Wilt Chamberlain: 26.1 PER & 54.7% TSP
Bob Pettit: 25.3 PER & 51.1% TSP
Neil Johnston: 24.6 PER & 53.4% TSP
Dolph Schayes: 21.9 PER & 48.7% TSP
Walt Bellamy: 19.8 PER & 55.4% TSP
Jerry Lucas: 18.9 PER & 54.4% TSP
TEAMMATES
Bailey Howell: 19.1 PER & 54.4% TSP
Bob Cousy: 19.7 PER & 44.6% TSP
Sam Jones: 18.7 PER & 50.3% TSP
Bill Sharman: 18.2 PER & 49.7% TSP
Tom Heinsohn: 17.8 PER & 46.0% TSP
John Havlicek: 17.5 PER & 49.2% TSP
If Russell played in the NBA today, then he’d be a higher quality version of Ben Wallace (16.3 PER & 47.9% TSP) — as he was admittedly a deft passer for someone his size — but that’s it.
Anyway, here’s my response to Jeff’s list.
NBA ALL-TIME FIRST TEAM
C: Wilt Chamberlain
PF: Hakeem Olajuwon
SF: Larry Bird
SG: Michael Jordan
PG: Earvin “Magic” Johnson
NBA ALL-TIME SECOND TEAM
C: Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
PF: Tim Duncan
SF: Elgin Baylor
SG: Jerry West
PG: Oscar Robertson
NBA ALL-TIME THIRD TEAM
C: Shaquille O’Neal
PF: Karl Malone
SF: Julius Erving
SG: Kobe Bryant
PG: John Stockton
That about does it.