1/6/08 Box Score: Sonics 86 Wizards 108
Posted on Sunday, January 6th, 2008 at 4:49 pm by Big Chris
Sorry about the lack of a game thread on the front page today. We’re experiencing some “issues” with the site that we are hoping to have fixed in the next month or two. In the mean time, please be patient, and feel free to start your own game thread in the message boards.
A horrible start and finish to the game for the Sonics. 2nd and 3rd quarters were played pretty well. The Sonics were outscored 34 to 61 in the first and fourth quarters today. And this was without Gilbert Arenas playing for the Wiz. (Happy birthday Agent Zero)
Kevin Durant led the Supersonics in scoring with 19 points, but even he admitted that his shot was off today.
“I think I was taking quality shots — shots I normally take throughout the game. Wide-open shots from the corner, I was missing, and going to the rim and missing layups.”
Wally Szczerbiak had a solid day with 18 points. Wally Z holds the distinction of the only Sonic player to not have a negative +/- for the game, and he only managed a zero.
Nick Collison tied his season high with 17 rebounds, and added 12 points to that. Kurt Thomas added 13 rebounds for the Sonics.
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| Seattle | |||||||||||||||
| Name | Min | FG | 3Pt | FT | +/- | Off | Reb | Ast | TO | Stl | BS | BA | PF | Pts | |
| K. Durant | G | 35:27 | 7-21 | 0-4 | 5-6 | -16 | 1 | 6 | 3 | 2 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 19 |
| E. Watson | G | 27:37 | 3-9 | 1-2 | 0-0 | -19 | 0 | 1 | 2 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 2 | 2 | 7 |
| K. Thomas | C | 30:07 | 3-4 | 0-0 | 1-2 | -16 | 3 | 13 | 4 | 2 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 4 | 7 |
| J. Green | F | 34:02 | 4-13 | 0-0 | 0-0 | -10 | 2 | 5 | 1 | 5 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 5 | 8 |
| N. Collison | F | 33:36 | 4-9 | 0-0 | 5-8 | -5 | 7 | 17 | 3 | 3 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 3 | 13 |
| D. West | 27:48 | 4-9 | 1-2 | 0-0 | -14 | 1 | 2 | 4 | 1 | 2 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 9 | |
| W. Szczerbiak | 23:29 | 6-13 | 4-7 | 2-2 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 18 | |
| J. Petro | 17:01 | 1-4 | 0-0 | 3-4 | -15 | 2 | 6 | 2 | 2 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 5 | |
| D. Wilkins | 10:50 | 0-2 | 0-1 | 0-0 | -15 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 2 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | |
| M. Gelabale | DNP - Coach’s Decision | ||||||||||||||
| L. Ridnour | DNP - Coach’s Decision | ||||||||||||||
| C. Wilcox | DNP - Coach’s Decision | ||||||||||||||
| Totals | 32-84 | 6-16 | 16-22 | 16 | 51 | 20 | 19 | 4 | 1 | 4 | 18 | 86 | |||
| Percentages: | .381 | .375 | .727 | Team Rebounds: 8 |
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| Washington | |||||||||||||||
| Name | Min | FG | 3Pt | FT | +/- | Off | Reb | Ast | TO | Stl | BS | BA | PF | Pts | |
| A. Daniels | G | 35:14 | 5-8 | 0-0 | 3-5 | +25 | 0 | 1 | 10 | 1 | 4 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 13 |
| D. Stevenson | G | 33:52 | 5-10 | 1-4 | 2-2 | +16 | 1 | 2 | 1 | 3 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 13 |
| B. Haywood | C | 31:32 | 3-7 | 0-0 | 4-4 | +23 | 5 | 9 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 2 | 1 | 4 | 10 |
| C. Butler | F | 39:34 | 12-21 | 3-5 | 6-6 | +29 | 0 | 4 | 5 | 1 | 4 | 0 | 0 | 2 | 33 |
| A. Jamison | F | 36:17 | 8-18 | 1-3 | 4-7 | +28 | 2 | 12 | 3 | 0 | 3 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 21 |
| D. Songaila | 20:30 | 4-7 | 0-0 | 0-0 | +2 | 2 | 6 | 1 | 2 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 4 | 8 | |
| R. Mason | 18:15 | 3-7 | 0-2 | 0-0 | +11 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 6 | |
| A. Blatche | 11:41 | 1-4 | 0-0 | 0-0 | -12 | 0 | 5 | 1 | 2 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 4 | 2 | |
| N. Young | 10:35 | 1-4 | 0-0 | 0-0 | -8 | 0 | 2 | 3 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 2 | 2 | |
| D. McGuire | 2:29 | 0-1 | 0-0 | 0-0 | -4 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 0 | |
| O. Pecherov | DNP - Coach’s Decision | ||||||||||||||
| Totals | 42-87 | 5-14 | 19-24 | 10 | 43 | 26 | 11 | 15 | 4 | 1 | 19 | 108 | |||
| Percentages: | .483 | .357 | .792 | Team Rebounds: 6 |
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| Game Info |
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Technical Fouls: None Attendance: 17,816 Officials: Eric Lewis, Joe Derosa, Rodney Mott |
January 6th, 2008 at 5:18 pm
Collison with 30 rebounds in his last 2 gms/60 mins of play.
Question: how many games/minutes will it take for Wilcox to amass his next 30 rebounds? My guess is 5 gms/100+ mins.
January 6th, 2008 at 6:35 pm
PJ started the 4th quarter with West, Wilkins, Green, Thomas, and Petro. Wow, that is just an awful lineup. There aren’t enough scorers and I’m not at all surprised they got blown out with that group on the floor.
I don’t understand why Wilkins was in the game at that point over Wally Z. I also question trying to use a big lineup, seeing that they spread the floor with Jamison at the 4.
PJ once again stuck with a group that wasn’t playing well, instead of trying something different. He should have pulled Wilkins out as soon as the Wizards started to go on their big run. Both Wally Z and Durant should have been brought back into the game much sooner to give the team some offense. Why not try going to a quicker, more athletic lineup to match the Wizards? These are the players I would have gone with when the Wizards started to pull away in the 4th quarter:
West
Wally Z
Durant
Green
Collison
In my opinion there is a nice offensive/defensive balance with this group and had he gone to them much earlier in the 4th the Sonics might have stayed in the game.
January 6th, 2008 at 6:42 pm
good guess….maybe longer
man. im starting to think Sene should get some run while Petro is the only “big” available off the bench.
I miss Antonio Daniels
January 6th, 2008 at 7:01 pm
http://www.nba.com/sonics/photogallery/080106.html
The third picture there looks like Carlesimo is having Sprewell flashbacks…
January 6th, 2008 at 7:03 pm
I was at the game, everyone played like garbage except Collison and Kurt Thomas. So many early shots in the clock, no ball movement, pretty much par for the course.
Interior defense was worse than I’ve usually seen though
January 6th, 2008 at 7:15 pm
Collison is playing well, but the Sonics have lost the last four games without Wilcox in the lineup. It seems like the they have missed his scoring and struggle at times to have enough offensive options on the floor.
January 6th, 2008 at 7:28 pm
Eli: PJ started the 4th quarter with West, Wilkins, Green, Thomas, and Petro. Wow, that is just an awful lineup. There aren’t enough scorers and I’m not at all surprised they got blown out with that group on the floor.
Yep.
Sonics have seen 5 players rise above PER 15-
Wilcox, Durant. Thomas, Wally and Collison. They should have at least 3 on court at all times if they want to win.
That lineup had 1.
January 6th, 2008 at 7:28 pm
So, much for having all of our players from the DC/Maryland area shine while playing at home. It looks like pretty much everyone played lousy IMO. No one had a good +/- stat tonight. PJ was probably scratching his head trying to think about who in the world to put onto the floor. Other than Collison’s double double were there really any bright points to take away from this game? The box score is depressing as bleep.
January 6th, 2008 at 8:09 pm
Hey beantown,
Point blank question: as far as you know, was PJ a Bennett hire or a Presti hire? You may have addressed this awhile back, but I honestly don’t remember how you characterized it.
January 6th, 2008 at 8:10 pm
“In my opinion there is a nice offensive/defensive balance with this group and had he gone to them much earlier in the 4th the Sonics might have stayed in the game. ”
You guys have to understand that these guys need rest. Collison, Durant and Thomas can’t play the entire game. If they could, PJ’s job would be a whole lot easier. Also keep in mind Durant’s finger is still hurting. During the game I saw him holding his left hand while walking off. We can’t afford to burn out Thomas and Collison considering Wilcox is out.
January 6th, 2008 at 8:29 pm
PJ was hired more on a financial basis, Bennett of course wants the best guy for the buck. Doesn’t work out that way, some coaches’ are paid more because of their experience or their sucess as a coach. You get what you pay for, and so far the Sonics are paying dearly for hiring PJ. He is a good basketball mind who can’t communicate his knowlege in an effective way at the NBA level. As Pitino found out the NBA is a different animal, if you go at it you will get eaten alive, if you work with it, help it in a positve way it will help that animal get to where it needs to go..
January 6th, 2008 at 8:56 pm
time to go wilkens, shouldn’t even be on the roster.
trade or waive
January 6th, 2008 at 9:00 pm
beantown said:
“PJ is a good basketball mind who can’t communicate his knowlege in an effective way at the NBA level.”
I’m sure you’re right - but this just baffles me. Listen to PJ talk and he’s extremely articulate; his knowledge is so obvious. Why can’t he communicate with players in a positive way?
Another question: PJ is often seen/heard on the sideline bitching at his players to “run the f****** offense!” How common is it for NBA players to go out on the floor and not run the plays?
January 6th, 2008 at 9:32 pm
First off he is negative, look at his face, looks like he is pissed at all times. His mouth is what is going to get his ass out of here, and his actions also. His invovement with the officials during the game is not needed focus on your players is what your concern should be. The Celtics and teams that have sucess do run an offense may not be the one the coach wants but they do run an offense. You also have to run set plays, or the defense will predict what you are doing.. His temperment is not what this team needs, or any team for that matter. If your a good teacher you are positive, and can dicipline effectively, I don’t see any of that happening with this team.. Who knows courtsense maybe the Sonics are looking for a guy like you behind the bench, one never knows..
January 6th, 2008 at 9:33 pm
“Kevin Durant led the Supersonics in scoring with 19 points, but even he admitted that his shot was off today.”
Look, almost anyone in the NBA can score 19 points with 21 shot opportunities. It’s not that difficult of a task.
“I think I was taking quality shots [...] shots I normally take throughout the game. Wide-open shots from the corner, I was missing, and going to the rim and missing layups.” {Kevin Durant}
When is someone going to inform this high volume shooting chucker that he’s hurting the team? Until Durant is pulled aside and told to quit playing like a selfish gunner, the Seattle Supersonics are doomed to continued failure this season and it’ll create a bleak future.
Since this so-called savior has a history of not being a proficient field-goal shooter, he must reign himself in and start deferring to his teammates more often on offense. Unfortunately for Durant, however, it might be difficult for him to realize that he shouldn’t be a number one option at the professional level.
Hell, that criticism about Durant’s inefficient shooting doesn’t even scratch the surface of his shortcomings. As it is, the weak rebounding numbers, lack of assists due to selfishness, high amount of turnovers via countless ball-handling mistakes, and porous defense also make him a flawed player.
I hope that Durant ultimately understands that success isn’t found by being a stat stuffer, but rather a winner. Otherwise, his career will go down the same path as George Gervin, Tracy McGrady, and other players of that ilk.
January 6th, 2008 at 9:40 pm
I don’t think PJ is that bad. If you look at a coach like D’Antoni, you might see some similarities to PJ as far as intensity goes. They’re both in your face, with D’Antoni constantly jawing at the refs and gets into it with his veteran players. They all seem to buy into his system.
January 6th, 2008 at 9:43 pm
Should have traded Wilkins to the Hawks after his 40 point outburst on them. Surely they would have given us something back. An expiring would have been good. Hell, anything would have been good.
January 6th, 2008 at 9:52 pm
Are you kidding me PJ and Mike D’Antonio are nothing alike as a person or a coach, on of the most ridiculous comparisons I have ever heard. His players respect him, unlike PJ where he does not have the players respect, or they would want to do better as Nash and others do when they play for their coach. So please don’t compare those guys because Mike gets a little exited on the sidelines and does let the officials know he is there, he is a great communicator. Nash has spoken only good things of him, and does have his players respond to his system. PJ is still searching for all of that with these guys, and I don’t think he will find it here..
January 6th, 2008 at 9:54 pm
This had to be one of the least desireable coaching jobs in the league. Top tier coaches are going to go where they can win and players are a big part of that, and besides KD coming in we don’t have much to get a good coach excited. That being said, a cheaper coach could still be one that can teach and motivate and get a team to perform to some degree. From what beantown is saying and I can’t see anything different when I watch PJ, he is not getting a whole lot done. I will say they seem to play reasonably hard for him, just not very smart. Maybe they need Bobby W. to lighten things up…
January 6th, 2008 at 9:54 pm
ajw, I wasn’t saying PJ had to bring all those players in at the same time. Obviously, you have to rest guys during the game. However, there really wasn’t any reason to keep Wilkins in the game when you have Wally Z available. Wally only played 23 minutes in the game.
Also, I never said Collison, Thomas, and Durant should play the whole game. Collison only played 33 minutes and Durant was around 35. There are guys in this league who play 40 minutes per game on a regular basis. I see no reason why a guy like Collison can’t play 38-40 minutes when he’s having a great game. It does make sense though to keep Thomas under 30 minutes, because of his age.
January 6th, 2008 at 10:11 pm
I’m surprised that AK hasn’t commented on AD’s 10-to-1 assist-to-turnover performance against the Sonics. This season has probably been AD’s best season as a Wizard. I think the Wizards are strong enough, even if Arenas does not return this season, to claim as high as the fourth seed in the Eastern Conference. They would probably face either the Cavs or the Nets if that were the case. However, if Washington only claimed the #6 seed, they would likely face Orlando. I’m not that sure if I wouldn’t rather take the lower seed and face an untested Orlando team than obtaining a higher seed and facing two veteran, tested teams such as Cleveland or New Jersey.
January 6th, 2008 at 10:44 pm
The best thing that I took from today’s against the Wizards is that the Sonics took and hit more threes than Washington. Going into today’s game, the Supes had the worst differential in terms of three-pointers made (-2.5 threes made per game) and the second worst differential in terms of threes attempted (-6.1 three pointers attempted per game). Of the Western Conference teams that hit fewer threes per game than their opponents, only the Denver Nuggets would make the playoffs if the season ended today. Of the Western Conference teams that take fewer threes per game than their opponents, only the Nuggets and Blazers would make the playoffs if the season ended today. The three-point shot may not be as valuable a weapon in the lower-scoring Eastern Conference. In the Western Conference, it is unlikely that a team can compete without the shot as a weapon. If the Sonics don’t strike gold again with the ping-pong balls, Eric Gordon is a guy that deserves a long look from Sam Presti given the three-point happy nature of the Western Conference.
January 6th, 2008 at 10:47 pm
I’m surprised that AK hasn’t commented on AD’s 10-to-1 assist-to-turnover performance against the Sonics.
Maybe he did, but we wouldn’t see the post until tomorrow morning due to his lifetime moderation penalty… it’s for our protection, I guess.
January 6th, 2008 at 10:49 pm
“His players respect him, unlike PJ where he does not have the players respect, or they would want to do better as Nash and others do when they play for their coach. So please don’t compare those guys because Mike gets a little exited on the sidelines and does let the officials know he is there, he is a great communicator. ”
And PJ doesn’t? Reports are PJ has had meetings with his players to evaluate him as a coach. He’s taken players out to dinner to get to the know them. He’s even said he wanted to be more family oriented, much like the Spurs organization. Communication isn’t the biggest problem. You might want to re-read what I posted too. I said they were similar in that they are both intense guys, and it’s evident when you watch them on the sidelines. I’ve never seen a coach like Stan Van Gundy or a Don Nelson rip into his players on the sideline the way PJ and D’Antoni do.
January 6th, 2008 at 10:57 pm
“However, there really wasn’t any reason to keep Wilkins in the game when you have Wally Z available. Wally only played 23 minutes in the game. ”
I agree here, considering I hate Wilkins more than anyone.
“There are guys in this league who play 40 minutes per game on a regular basis. I see no reason why a guy like Collison can’t play 38-40 minutes when he’s having a great game.”
This I don’t agree with. We’re already depleted as far as depth is concern. If you burn out Collison, who else do you rely on in case Thomas has to sit? I’m sure you don’t want to give Petro big minutes. Please don’t bring up the Sene nonsense. 33 minutes is about right for Collison. With the way Collison plays, banging constantly for boards especially on the offensive end, you don’t want to kill the guy on this road trip. Especially with no reliable backup C.
January 6th, 2008 at 10:58 pm
Also beantown, the only thing that’s rediculous is you assuming the players don’t respect PJ. Can you provide any evidence of this?
January 6th, 2008 at 11:25 pm
Sonics loss today reflects again they just are simply bad - and missing Wilcox does not help. KD & JG give me hope but as young rookies they need help. This is a year to let losses pile up & get a high draft pick and move on next year. Presti is getting a year to evaluate the other Sonics - More deals are coming I’m sure.
About 20 wins I think.
I can’t figure PJ out but I still would have preferred D. Casey. I think PJ was hired for 1 reason - Presti had a good relationship with him in San Antonio. No Spurs connection & PJ would not have been hired. Clay previous association with the Spurs probably influenced this hire also. Given the overal budget of an NBA operation -and the vital importantce of getting the right coach to work with your young superstar in a re-building setting - I can’t believe Clay would hire PJ to save $$$$$. The need to get the right person for the job is too great. If he did hire PJ to get a cheaper coach he is an idiot.
January 6th, 2008 at 11:32 pm
On Collison….
I think Nick is showing he is no all-star - but he has a real place in this league and could be a very valuable role player in the future - playing 20-30 minutes at the #4 & maybe #5.
Comparable players might be Haslem of Miami, Mcdyess of Detroit - who make solid contributions on their teams.
No team has 5 all-stars starting. Everyone needs role players and depth. Collison’s contract is 3 more years & at about 6 million a year he is fairly reasonably priced. Probably not a great contract but the team could do a lot worse. He’s smart, hustles and seems to be a good team guy/unslefish player. Of all the Sonics other that KD & JG, he is the one I’m most interestd in keeping around.
January 6th, 2008 at 11:34 pm
“Another question: PJ is often seen/heard on the sideline bitching at his players to “run the f****** offense!” How common is it for NBA players to go out on the floor and not run the plays?”–Courtsense.
I bet this is far more common than anyone would like to admit. That’s the problem that NBA coaches face now. Guys like Jerry Sloan who command enough respect to get players to play in a system year after year are amazing.
January 6th, 2008 at 11:47 pm
I always quickly moderate AK’s posts when he plays nicely. I’m just not always at my computer the same hours he is posting.
Big Chris
January 6th, 2008 at 11:59 pm
Hopefully Wally and Thomas are playing good enough so we can trade them for draft picks etc..
Apparently its a 10 team race on who can suck the most..
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/standings?season=2008&group=league&seasontype=2&standType=standings
The Heat planned this season to tank they want Beasley.
Business is funny.
January 7th, 2008 at 12:10 am
- PJ simply is not a good coach and I am shocked to see that this team has regressed to the point it has…this team isn’t even really all that enjoyable to watch any more.
- Nice to see AK pop his head out of the woodworks only when it helps fit his argument…it shows the signs of a true believer…
- And whoever said it above…speak for yourself…but Im pretty sure the arrows for the biggest hater of both Wilkins and Watson all point in this direction. Bill Simmons always says when he is “evaluating talent” one of the things he looks at is whether he would ever want to play pick-up ball with him. While Im not sure that is really all that worthwhile for talent evaluation I can say that I would most definately not want to play pick-up ball with either of those players..
January 7th, 2008 at 12:22 am
Does anybody know who had the assignment on Butler? I suspect it was Green but I’d appreciate anyone with actual knowledge letting us know who was the culprit defensively. SF is the position of offensive strength in the Eastern Conference. While Tough Juice is a tough matchup for anyone, I don’t envy the fellow who draws the SF defensive assignment against Cleveland.
Of the teams likely to be in the high lottery, I think Miami, Charlotte, Sacramento, and Memphis would likely select Beasley over Rose. Seattle, Minnesota, and New York would likely select Rose over Beasley. It’s tough to determine the likely direction that Milwaukee would go if they were to get lucky with the ping pong balls as it has recently invested draft picks and money into the PF and PG positions.
January 7th, 2008 at 12:45 am
“Does anybody know who had the assignment on Butler? I suspect it was Green but I’d appreciate anyone with actual knowledge letting us know who was the culprit defensively. ”
It was more Durant than Green. On multiple occasions, Butler crossed up Durant and took it to the hole. When Green guarded him, he contested his shots, but Butler was still stroking them. Nothing he could’ve done about that.
January 7th, 2008 at 1:45 am
- I wouldnt put too much faith that we would take Rose over Beasley…it seems much more likely that Presti would try and find his “next Duncan” over a PG…no matter how bad our guys suck…
January 7th, 2008 at 5:52 am
“- I wouldnt put too much faith that we would take Rose over Beasley…it seems much more likely that Presti would try and find his “next Duncan” over a PG…no matter how bad our guys suck…” {Myk}
For whatever it’s worth to y’all, Michael Beasley combines the skill set of Carmelo Anthony and a young Shareef Abdur-Rahim — who was a 20/10 player during his prime — which makes him an offensively versatile, yet defensively inept combo forward. Beasley, however, suffers from some of the same problems that’ve perpetually plagued Zach Randolph — such as lack of focus, laziness, and selfishness — thus, that makes me wary of this highly-rated prospect.
http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Michael-Beasley-605
In any event, though, there’s no way in hell that anyone can justifiably compare Beasley to Tim Duncan—especially an alleged genius like Sam Presti. Not only do Beasley and Duncan have entirely different styles of play — with Beasley being a cornerman and Duncan being an interior player — but their respective personalities are also complete contrasts from each other.
All things considered, it’s Derrick Rose or bust.
January 7th, 2008 at 8:20 am
ajw, you do not know what you are talking about my man, you are going on reports that PJ takes his players out to dinner, he did Durant and Greene when they got here. Kurt Thomas when he got here, and Delonte and Wally when they first got here. Alot of coaches do that ajw but you wouldn’t know that, because you get your info from reports rather than fact my man. Yes the players did have an evaluation on PJ twice, one was written and one was verbal, again fact my man not some stupid ass report that you read and tell people of. I also know several players that have played foe PJ, and lets just say he is not on alot of their chistmas list’s. Again that is fact, and one more thing you don’t know Don Nelson very well do you awj, because my man looses it big time, vebally at times abuses his players, when I read that I decided you dont know what your talking about when you read everything. When you actually know the situation your insight is far greater than that of someone who reads the media’s bs.
January 7th, 2008 at 8:52 am
In any event, though, there’s no way in hell that anyone can justifiably compare Beasley to Tim Duncan—especially an alleged genius like Sam Presti. Not only do Beasley and Duncan have entirely different styles of play — with Beasley being a cornerman and Duncan being an interior player — but their respective personalities are also complete contrasts from each other.
All things considered, it’s Derrick Rose or bust.
- I wasn’t claiming it was actually a Duncan clone…I’m talking about a “top tier PF”…if Presti thinks that there is a top tier PF and PG available I think he goes with the PF…most execs go for size.
January 7th, 2008 at 9:19 am
AK…. I have no real wisdom about Beasly but anyone who is being compared to Zach Randolph and described as lazy should be completely ignored in the next draft. If you are right then the Sonics need to look to Rose or others for sure.
I think trading KT could happen - plenty of teams would love him for his potential short-term positive contribution this season if they are looking at a serious playoff run and his expiring contract makes him a very low risk guy. Problem will be finding matching salary for the Sonics that makes sense for Seattle. I’d say it’s 50/50 a trade happens with KT before Feb. 21
January 7th, 2008 at 10:04 am
“I hope that Durant ultimately understands that success isn’t found by being a stat stuffer, but rather a winner. Otherwise, his career will go down the same path as George Gervin, Tracy McGrady, and other players of that ilk. ”
Yeah that George Gervin sure did suck. You’re a clown.
January 7th, 2008 at 10:50 am
I’ll be surprised, not to mention supremely disappointed, if Durant turns out to be nothing more than a stat stuffer ala Gervin and McGrady, and not an NBA Champion.
January 7th, 2008 at 11:10 am
Considering the cast that’s been placed around him, the over-reliance on Durant to score or else, isn’t exactly impressing on him the need to be a team player.
January 7th, 2008 at 11:39 am
Gervin is Hall of Fame. I didnt see him much. By getting to the line a lot he ended up bouncing around between an average and above average efficiency scorer as well as being a high volume scorer.
Playoffs were one less round back then but he never got out of conference finals. But that is a function of star/coach and rest of team not just star.
January 7th, 2008 at 11:44 am
In 9 years with NBA Spurs they won 56% of the time. That is somewhat disappointing when you have a hall of famer.
January 7th, 2008 at 11:48 am
George Gervin was like a playground star just having fun in the NBA…all about scoring; no D, no assists, no boards, no sweat.
January 7th, 2008 at 11:56 am
Jordan led Bulls took off in his year 4, the arrival season for Pippen and Grant. That season 87-88 Jordan cut shot attempts and increased assists and he did it again the next year to his Chicago career low attempts and career high assists. After the team was working he moved back to being a superstar. Who played superior defense.
Durant gets some time, needs to be in a big 3 and hopefully responds to it the right way for good team results.
January 7th, 2008 at 11:56 am
“Playoffs were one less round back then but he never got out of conference finals. But that is a function of star/coach and rest of team not just star. ”
“George Gervin was like a playground star just having fun in the NBA…all about scoring; no D, no assists, no boards, no sweat. ”
Really? How many times did you see him play?
January 7th, 2008 at 12:04 pm
Gervin was a pretty good rebounder in ABA but under 5 rebs and 3 assists a game in NBA. Not bad but nothing special on those stats. On defense the team defensive numbers with him on court do look terrible the second half of his career. As a thin young maybe more team-oriented or hungrier wing he did alright. As a thin older superstar playing run and gun it slipped to bottom barrel.
January 7th, 2008 at 12:06 pm
I watched some ABA and early 80s NBA. I saw Gervin play but it might have been just a handful or two times.
January 7th, 2008 at 12:08 pm
Steve said:
“Really? How many times did you see him play?”
Well, I never counted…but it was many, many times throughout the course of his career.
January 7th, 2008 at 12:27 pm
I saw Gervin play a few times near the end of his career … he was a nearly effortless scorer … Alex English kind of a similar player. Focusing on what they didn’t do instead of recognizing what they could to try and prove an already busted point about Kevin Durant is silly.
First of all virtually nobody from that era played defense as we recognize it today. There were always a few stalwarts on that end but for the most part the 70s-80s were fast paced high scoring games.
The best big English ever played with was probably Dan Issel, Gervin had … Larry Kenon? Dave Corzine? Artis Gilmore also at the end of his career … put either of those guys with a Kareem or Unseld and it’s a different story.
January 7th, 2008 at 12:38 pm
I agree that inside/outside combo action usually helps. Hopefully Durant will get enough to play off of and enough of that interior defense at other end of court to win at a high rate.
I have no memory of Billy Paultz but he was a 3 time all-star center before Gervin’s arrival and they had 2 good years together in San Antonio where he put up 16pts 8 rebs 2 blocks a game before he trailed off.
I has a big (young) fan of Dan Issel and followed him from college into ABA then NBA.
January 7th, 2008 at 12:38 pm
I wasn’t really knocking Gervin or comparing Durant to him, so much as saying that I just hope Durant turns out to be a better all-around player than Gervin. But you’re right - Iceman was a marvel to watch…an effortless scorer, as you say.
January 7th, 2008 at 12:45 pm
Gilmore at 34 in 82-83 averaged 18pts 12 rebs 2 blocks and the following 3 years were only a little less. So Gervin may not had the best big man at peak like some wings got but he wasnt totally deprived either.
January 7th, 2008 at 12:50 pm
Durant hopefully will get at least one signficant interior add soon. Can’t see how they get where they want to go without it.
January 7th, 2008 at 1:48 pm
I’d rather Durant took 14-15 shots a game early this season and then progress up but an average of 17-18 so far isn’t a huge deal. Taking 20+ shots is a threshold I don’t think anyone should cross unless they are hot or there is flatly no alternative. When Durant has taken 20+ shots he has hit 50+% 5 of the 14 times. Good shooting on 35% of those times, that is a little low for the lead guy but being a couple low isn’t surprising for a rookie.
January 7th, 2008 at 2:04 pm
If I had to bet right now…I think the 7′ on Texas A&M will be our first round draft pick next year.
January 7th, 2008 at 2:05 pm
Anyone see how Petro violated the key during a free-throw miss of an opponent a few games back? The next free throw went in as Petro couldn’t help violating the box again, within a one minute span! Sene atleast appears to be excited about basketball, while running around like a giant gazelle. I’d spend the effort on the individual with the innate desire to improve himself, rather than the team clown.
January 7th, 2008 at 2:14 pm
AD always gave a 110%, like BB, GP, NM, DB…
January 7th, 2008 at 2:14 pm
With a few exceptions this is probably the most frequent rate most Sonics players have ever lost at any level.
PJ and Westhead have been coach of teams with this experience several times.
It hasn’t been a big deal at least in public because management pretty much gave themselves and everyone else a free pass this year.
Guys can try not to think about it, or put much of the responsibility on the coaches or the rookies or keep it on themselves.
Next 45 days to trade deadline and allstar break may test unity.
I am not really down on player effort or attitude but wherever it is at it isn’t enough yet.
They will need to push to a new level of unity, sustained focus and execution and hunger.
January 7th, 2008 at 2:28 pm
I really really dont understand PJ Carlesimo…..He want Green on SF and gave Wally 22 minutes per game….Thats funny….Sonics will lost every game if players got their minutes like last night….
January 7th, 2008 at 2:33 pm
OK - after 5 games in Idaho Sene stacks up very well with Mahinmi and Fesenko. All three are about the same age (22 in 2008)
Sene gets 1.5 more rebounds /48 than Fesenko, and almost 4 more thah Mahinmi. That is a pretty big difference and a very important stat.
Sene is shooting at a 54% clip and 68% from the line, Fesenko is also at 54% but 64% from the line. Mahinmi is clearly superior here - he is shooting 62% and 80% from the line. But, Sene aint too bad.
Sene gets about 4 blocks/48, Fesenko 5 and Mahinmi 2.
Sene - in his obviously primary weak spot, has zero, yes 0, assists. Fesenko = 3/48, Mahinmi 2.7/48
Sene - turnovers = 4.8, Fesenko = 4, Mahinmi = 4.3
Sene is much better than either in fouls/48. He commits only 3.75 fouls per 48, Fesenko = 8 and Mahinmi = 6.
Sene = 1.5 steals, Mahinmi = 2.2, Fesenko = .6
After watching Sene play a few of those games my thoughts are:
1. He needs to get stronger. That will be the primary key to his success.
2. He needs to practice passing out of the post - especially when he gets double teamed - which happened a number of times.
3. Related to #2, they really should not post him up very often. He is not wide enough to be a good post player.
January 7th, 2008 at 2:34 pm
I don’t know about calling it a free pass for this year, as I know some of the work that is being done behind the scenes. It is indeed going to take time to build this team, there are alot of moves that still need to be made, some adjustments, also need to be made. I think it is important that once all the players are in place you have to stick with that group and work with that group and eventually hope that the work you put in you will get positive results.. I was on a rebuilding team, and mngmt. was trying like hell to fit the peices to the puzzle together, we eventually got better.. So every time you put your uniform on there is no free pass, you want to go out and win so bad that you feel nothing can stop you. You are in the zone, and no one can take you out of it, I loved that feeling. The feeling of your stomach turning because you want to bust through the roof, and again no one I mean no one can stop you…
As far as being able to tell if the players respect him, it’s all in how they look at him, their body language towards him, I know when I go to the games who he is pissing off, and why.. I don’t like his style, I very much believe in dicipline and structure something PJ is known for, the problem is he can’t communicate to his players in a positive and effective way, known fact…
January 7th, 2008 at 2:35 pm
The fact that the PJ adjusted the team schedule in order to turn the trip to DC into an opportunity for the 3 DC players to spend lots of time with their families is just further evidence that this season is a complete write-off.
But given that the team has done absolutely nothing to deserve such a reward, exactly what kind of message does that send to the players? Judging from their performance yesterday, not to mention the numerous not-so-subtle references to the lack of energy and focus, it appears the players seized the chance to take a little 4-day mini-vacation in the middle of the season…
Apparently nothing builds “culture” - and makes hard-working veterans scratch their heads - like rewarding rookies for having done…nothing. This whole ill-conceived exercise just reeks of PJ trying to buy the players loyalty.
Maybe next time the coach and the players will recognize the trip to DC for what it is - a freaking business trip.
January 7th, 2008 at 2:43 pm
I can totally understand taking one extra day, either an off day or a travel day, to stay in DC and let Durant, Green, and West catch up with family and friends. No problem - but 4 days in the city sandwiched around 1 game?!
Then PJ says he was surprised by how poorly they competed.
I wonder if inthe future he’ll rearrange the travel schedule to accomodate Nick and Wally and Kurt - since they’re the only ones who actually came to play yesterday.
What a joke.
January 7th, 2008 at 3:32 pm
Breaking News: Howard Schultz is back as the CEO of Starbucks!!!
January 7th, 2008 at 3:37 pm
Again bt, I just stated that I’ve never seen Don Nelson or SVG on the sideline rip his players the way PJ or Mike D’Antoni. That’s from my perspective. Nelson’s the type of coach that gives his players free reign when it comes to offense. His players said it best, when in doubt he just wanted his players to shoot.
Sorry beantown, I just don’t buy into this whole fake facade that you put up in front of you. Everyone else might be convinced of your act, but I’m not.
January 7th, 2008 at 3:44 pm
Nice post on the young big D league experience McCoy. Thanks. They share a lot of similarities but seeing the differences is helpful.
January 7th, 2008 at 3:58 pm
Bean, I think you’re just going on PJ’s reputation of not developing relationships with his star players. Sure he was known for that in Portland and GSW, but don’t you think he’s learned from Popavich after 5 years now?
Let me just take bits and pieces from what I’ve read:
“And now, Presti knows that Carlesimo, who’s been Popovich’s top assistant for five years, has studied and been sold on its necessity.”
“I personally believe that what we need for our program right now is a teacher,” said Presti. “Someone that can teach the game at a high level and can communicate the game at a high level.”
“The NBA is about the players; there is absolutely no question about that,” Carlesimo said. “Hopefully, I have learned from my relations.”
Beantown, do you still think people can’t change? He might have been a hardass in the past, but I suspect he got older and wiser. If he hasn’t learned by now, he’s going to be screwed out of his job very soon.
January 7th, 2008 at 4:01 pm
Free pass might make too light of it but there was no talk of playoffs at start of season, no talk of slipping 5 then 10 games below .500 and what that meant to chances and there is no public agony from the team over being sub 30% win. Call it a lighter than usual pass. It was being realistic but there is a danger to it. Sub 30% wins has gone down quitely, maybe too quietly.
Getting Kurt Thomas could be rationalized as educational or about the picks but it might have been a sign of thinking they could compete at a higher level. I don’t know how much they are disappointed at coaching and management and ownership levels with record to date. Either they wrote the season off or they are disppointed. If they wrote the season off they still are accountable for what gets done and what carries over into future. If they didn’t right the season off then I’d say they havent been aggressive enough fixing the rotations, reducing bad shots and turnovers, eliminating bad quarters etc.
January 7th, 2008 at 4:01 pm
By the way, your assumption that the Sonics players don’t respect PJ has me questioning your stance on this discussion. Can you provide any factual evidence on this? Has a player came out and said this. Do the players walk out on him in practice?
Anything???
January 7th, 2008 at 4:06 pm
“Getting Kurt Thomas could be rationalized as educational or about the picks but it might have been a sign of thinking they could compete at a higher level. I don’t know how much they are disappointed at coaching and management and ownership levels with record to date. ”
In my opinion, I really doubt they got KT thinking he was going to start and play a good amount of minutes. I think he was acquired moreso for the picks as well as the educational aspect. Management had made it clear that they were writing off the season after letting Ray go.
January 7th, 2008 at 4:07 pm
I’m personally not a fan of PJs in your face/screamer style…..but who is to say its wrong? I wouldn’t like it if I was the player. But everyone has their own approach. It seems to work for Bob Knight.
RE: Sene
“3. Related to #2, they really should not post him up very often. He is not wide enough to be a good post player.”
Where the hell should he play then?
January 7th, 2008 at 4:08 pm
PJ may have changed some details but what you do and intend can still be different than how well it goes over.
January 7th, 2008 at 4:13 pm
Sene should probably set picks and then move around to leave room for the other big to operate or a wing or PG to drive while staying close enough to step into rebounding position as soon as a shot is about to come. Maybe he stays alert for the occasional dump pass / dunk.
January 7th, 2008 at 4:17 pm
Looks like Luke is out for an extended period (again) which no doubt means 1) more audition time at PG for Watson and West, and 2) it’s highly unlikely Luke gets traded anytime soon.
January 7th, 2008 at 4:18 pm
That would be my thinking about what is right for him at this stage in the NBA assuming you were trying to win the game and limit miscues. In NBDL they do want him to work on post moves / post passing. But its use is more for down the line in NBA career, if ever.
January 7th, 2008 at 4:19 pm
“I don’t like his style, I very much believe in dicipline and structure something PJ is known for, the problem is he can’t communicate to his players in a positive and effective way, known fact… ”
I do not believe that this years’ coaching staff has accomplished much of anything. I realize the roster they have to work with is either not very good or very experienced for the most part but I do not see any set plan behind the offense, I do not see players being disciplined for taking horrible shots or obviously padding their stats or both, I do not see consistent execution or effort on offense or defense. I’m not seeing the team gelling, I’m not seeing them learning from mistakes they made weeks ago.
That said I do not believe PJ should be fired yet because … it doesn’t matter. If over half the current roster is gone in two years (and it will be) then it really doesn’t matter who the coach of this team is today. I suppose they could replace PJ with Skiles or Dwane Casey or whatever name you want to see but chances are that guy will be gone in a couple years regardless, because IMO the talent on the roster is just not sufficient to win no matter who the coach is.
So how to evaluate PJ? To be fair his bar for success is probably measured by the progress that Durant and Green make this year. Durant is still a work in progress but is pretty much a lead pipe cinch to be ROY this year and on his way to be a superstar level talent one day. Green is playing better today than he was in November and will likely be better still in another couple of months. So if the goal of the season was simply to give Durant & Green as much playing time as they could handle then so far it’s been OK. Not great but OK.
I’d love to see more floor discipline on offense but I’m not sure with these players that that’ll ever happen.
January 7th, 2008 at 4:21 pm
just when I think this team is making a step forward they have a game like this. this team lacks the focus and the will to play hard every night. they have the talent to be a decent team but they take some games off or by the time they get into the game its too late. maybe because they are a young team or maybe the lack the vets to push the young guys to play hard but until they have that guy this team will struggle all season
January 7th, 2008 at 4:25 pm
There seems to be 2 players who give maximum effort every time they are out on the court.
D. West & K. Thomas
They also happen to be the only rotation players that are in a contract year.
January 7th, 2008 at 4:30 pm
“I personally believe that what we need for our program right now is a teacher,” said Presti. “Someone that can teach the game at a high level and can communicate the game at a high level.”
- You seem to want to call out Beantown needing to provide factual evidence on his claims. Do you have any factual evidence that PJ has really taught this team all that much? We might have a few more wins in the last month, but when I watch the team it is signficantly less disciplined.
So how to evaluate PJ? To be fair his bar for success is probably measured by the progress that Durant and Green make this year. Durant is still a work in progress but is pretty much a lead pipe cinch to be ROY this year and on his way to be a superstar level talent one day. Green is playing better today than he was in November and will likely be better still in another couple of months. So if the goal of the season was simply to give Durant & Green as much playing time as they could handle then so far it’s been OK. Not great but OK.
- Im a Durant supporter and I think AK is an idiot for the things he says. However, I don’t think I’ve seen Durant’s game improve all that much from game one to game 30…it is starting to worry me.
January 7th, 2008 at 4:30 pm
There seems to be 2 players who give maximum effort every time they are out on the court.
D. West & K. Thomas
They also happen to be the only rotation players that are in a contract year.
- I would argue that Wally does as well…also I’ve never been to worried about the effort levels of Durant/Green
January 7th, 2008 at 4:33 pm
OK since we’re talking about coaching here, I have to ask all you cats who took issue to my touting Nate Mac10 as a good coach, what do you say now?
I think PJ’s personality goes against his best efforts to manage players as people. He takes guys out to dinner as a “get to know you” gesture, gives them days off, and arranged the extra day in DC for the homies — so he’s at least trying — but somehow he hasn’t learned the critical leadership technique of “praise in public, criticize in private.” He lays into dudes where everyone can see it, and this alienates players. Players have massive egos, and getting ripped in plain sight and earshot of thousands of people breeds distrust, not to mention fracturing their confidence and focus.
January 7th, 2008 at 4:35 pm
“However, I don’t think I’ve seen Durant’s game improve all that much from game one to game 30…it is starting to worry me. ”
Realistically, what did you expect to see? Even the most talented rookies usually take more than 30 games before you see a pronounced improvement. I remember it took Kobe a couple seasons and certainly most of the Chicago guys I watched in early 2000s didn’t look very good out of the gate either.
January 7th, 2008 at 4:45 pm
“- You seem to want to call out Beantown needing to provide factual evidence on his claims. Do you have any factual evidence that PJ has really taught this team all that much? We might have a few more wins in the last month, but when I watch the team it is signficantly less disciplined.”
Our arguement had to do with communication, not discipline. BT pointed out that players do not respect PJ, and that he was bad at communicating with his players. I’m bringing out quotes to try and dissprove that claim. Sam Presti and Rick Barnes seem to think he’s good at teaching.
Obviously this team isn’t disciplined right now, but this roster isn’t even close to being PJ’s and Sam’s roster. This is just year freakin’ one. We still have way too many boneheaded players on the roster (Watson, Wilkins, Wilcox, Petro) to judge on its first year. When PJ is yelling at WallyZ on the sidelines to run the offense, I don’t think he’s telling him to do more than he has to like he always does. Time will tell how disciplined this team becomes, just not three and half months into year one of the rebuilding phase.
January 7th, 2008 at 4:45 pm
“OK since we’re talking about coaching here, I have to ask all you cats who took issue to my touting Nate Mac10 as a good coach, what do you say now? Players have massive egos, and getting ripped in plain sight and earshot of thousands of people breeds distrust, not to mention fracturing their confidence and focus. ”
I’ll let Myk tee off on this one too, but I’ve seen Nate rip guys a new one in front of the whole team…multiple times … so not sure what you are getting at there.
Fact - Nate has had one winning season in the last five years. We are 30 games into the PJ era and look at the unrest here. Nate has sucked as horribly as PJ or worse for three straight years in Portland and somehow still draws the excuses.
Let’s be honest. If Nate McMillan wasn’t a beloved former player here there would be no one defending his accomplishments or records as a coach because there simply isn’t much there to warrant the praise he regularly draws. Example, Mo Cheeks gets no love here and he’s basically a more successful, less expensive version of Nate.
January 7th, 2008 at 4:50 pm
Where would Mo Sene play - how about the same place Nick Collison plays - only without the bricks from outside as Mo would never try such a shot.
Mo Sene would play the same position as players like Tyson Chandler, Dikemebe Mutombo, hell, Mark Eaton etc… In other words, set picks, the occasional pick and roll and live on the offensive glass. Of course, his real value will be on defense.
January 7th, 2008 at 4:52 pm
“There seems to be 2 players who give maximum effort every time they are out on the court.
D. West & K. Thomas
They also happen to be the only rotation players that are in a contract year. ”
I see NickyC killing himself on the boards every night. Sometimes his contributions don’t get recorded in the stat sheet, but when I see him pounding other big men down low every night and going for almost every single offensive rebound, that leads me to believe he gives maximum effort. That’s why, along with KD35 and Green, he is on my untradeable list.
January 7th, 2008 at 4:52 pm
“We might have a few more wins in the last month, but when I watch the team it is signficantly less disciplined.”
Those “few more wins” only happened because the schedule hit a lighter stretch. The Sonics don’t even have ONE win against the eleven best teams in the Western Conference. Memphis has defeated San Antonio. Even Minnesota accidentally stumbled onto a couple wins (New Orleans and Phoenix) against the top eleven teams in the West. The scary thing is that I can see this team only ending up with two-three games wins playoff teams from the Western Conference at the season’s conclusion.
January 7th, 2008 at 5:00 pm
Nobody to guard Butler OR Jamison…that was the whole problem. they had too many easy points. Its not just 1 on 1 defense its fighting through screens and not being juked out. I thought the ball pressure on the point guards was adequette..not great but not the deciding factor on why Daniels had only 10 assists.
January 7th, 2008 at 5:04 pm
To PJ’s credit he has the team playing hard on most night and he has them at least attempting to play defense.
My problem with PJ is there doesn’t seem to be a clear direction what type of team they are going to be. When the season started they talked about being an up-tempo team that was going to run the ball. Well, as far as I can tell PJ doesn’t use lineups that are really designed for that type of play. He seems to favor a more traditional big lineup that can protect the interior and rebound well. The Sonics don’t have a roster built to be a power team and I think their better off going to a more athletic, quick lineup.
Instead of giving Petro minutes I would prefer that they get Gelebale into the rotation and play Durant more at small forward, and Green more at the 4. That way Gelebale and Wally Z can both get minutes at shooting guard. I would give the center minutes to Collison and Thomas, with Collison also getting some minutes at power forward. I feel like the Sonics best shot at winning is to really push the ball and get easy baskets and playing small ball gives them a better chance of doing that.
I often find myself wondering how this team would look if someone like Don Nelson were coaching them. I have a feeling he would find a way to use guys like Green and Durant in a more versatile way. You would probably see Durant play more at the 3 and even the 4 for certain match-ups. Wilcox would play more at center and I highly doubt Petro would even be in the rotation. Why play mediocre big men when you can use versatile guys like Gelebale, Green, and Durant to create mismatches? You have to play to your teams strength and create an identity.
January 7th, 2008 at 5:08 pm
Nick Collison is one of my least favorite players on the team just because of my personal annoyance with how fans are so quick to fall in love with these “lunch-pail” players. The same nonsense is occurring in the college ranks with the media admoration for the kid in North Carolina and here in Montlake for John Brockman.
Brian Robinson brought up a good thread about the value of these “lunch-pail” guys in a thread where Robinson ate some crow with his previously-stated view of the Celtics. The Sonics could easily find Nick Collison’s replacement in the second round next year if he were let go tomorrow. I don’t see any reason why Collison should be untouchable.
January 7th, 2008 at 5:15 pm
I guess it’s a crime now to be a fan of hustle players.
January 7th, 2008 at 5:21 pm
“Nick Collison is one of my least favorite players on the team just because of my personal annoyance with how fans are so quick to fall in love with these “lunch-pail” players”
Amen to that Alex.
I’d gladly refer to Kurt Thomas as “blue collar” “lunch pale” guy. In fact, his career opitomizes that kind of consistency and mentality. Nick Collison is right there with Steve Scheffler as more of a lunch-able.
January 7th, 2008 at 5:26 pm
Nick Collison is a pretty decent player - they just sometimes ask him to do things that he is not capable of.
January 7th, 2008 at 5:40 pm
Steve you’re so kind to let Myk tee off on me too! OK so you’ve seen Nate rip guys publicly — I have not.
We’ve already covered the issue of Nate’s not getting to run his system under Wally Weaker until his last year, when he said “screw it I’m gonna coach my way” and the Supes responded by going 52-30. Yes, that was a contract year for lots of guys — and most contract years, players go after individual numbers but Nate got them to coalesce and embrace (often limited) roles to great success. He gives guys simple, clearly defined roles — something PJ, with all his basketball smarts, has yet to do here and the negative impact of it is obvious.
At first faced in PDX with a roster & team that was fractured & dysfunctional, Nate brought in dudes that play his style and in about the second year with this group, I think the youngest in the league, PDX is tearing teams up — without their franchise center. I personally view all this as a strong track record.
January 7th, 2008 at 5:52 pm
At first faced in PDX with a roster & team that was fractured & dysfunctional, Nate brought in dudes that play his style and in about the second year with this group, I think the youngest in the league, PDX is tearing teams up — without their franchise center. I personally view all this as a strong track record.
Someone’s not giving the Portland GM much credit here.
January 7th, 2008 at 5:57 pm
Collison is a decent defender, a very good rebounder, and a guy who plays hard every night. Most of his flaws are on the offensive side of the game. He basically plays like a center, but lacks the height to block shots.
In my opinion Collison would be most effective playing alongside a 4, or 5 that can score the ball. The problem being that there just aren’t many big men available that are really very good. A guy like Al Harrington would be a decent match to play with Collison. It would be an undersized front-court, but Harrington could focus on scoring and Collison on rebounding, and defense. I just threw out Harrington’s name, because he would probably be available for the right price. Maybe a package of Wilcox and Wilkins? Obviously, someone with a little more length would be preferred, but those guys are hard to find. Possibly Pau Gasol, but I’m not sure we have anything they would want. At least a guy like Harrington would give the Sonics a fairly consistent scorer and allow Thomas and Collison to focus on their strengths.
January 7th, 2008 at 6:04 pm
Did it ever occur to any of you boneheads that it’s the “lunch-pail” players like Nick Collison and Jon Brockman busting their asses doing the hard, dirty, and necessary work every freaking game that makes it possible for their half-hearted teammates to get their names on the stat sheet despite doing next to nothing except making a few baskets?
January 7th, 2008 at 6:17 pm
Courtsense, I completely disagree with your premise and your post. You make it seem as if making a “few baskets” is so easy. Your logic is also faulty. What does Nick do “except” for obtaining a couple of hustle rebounds? My problem with these “lunch-pail” guys, moreso Brockman than Collison, is that their ability to make any competent offensive contribution relies on their teammates missing a shot. The team is essentially playing 4 on 5 on offense whenever one of these lunch-pail guys is on the court. Teammates have to work extra hard to make a “few baskets” to overcome the offensive deficiencies of the “lunch-pail” player.
January 7th, 2008 at 6:18 pm
Every team needs the lunch-pail type players on their roster to succeed. You just have to have a balance of talented players who can score the ball and the tough/hustle guys that give a good effort every game. A perfect example is the 52 win Sonics team of three years ago. They had talented scorers in Lewis, Allen, and Radmanovich, as well as the tough minded players in Evans, Fortson, and Daniels. Every once in awhile you get a superstar like Duncan, or Garnett that combine both scoring ability and amazing hustle and effort.
January 7th, 2008 at 6:21 pm
I think you are also arriving at the wrong inference from my post about Collison. While Collison is one my least favorite Sonics, especially after his verbal slipup at the final game last season, I recognize that he is valuable contributor. However, most winning teams wouldn’t sign such a player to an extension that pays the player close to six million a year. Utah found a Nick-Collison clone in Paul Mislap in the second round. There’s no need to consider a guy like Nick as part of your foundation. These guys are interchangeeable and can be found in the second round each year through some clever scouting (Maxiell was a second round pick for Detroit).
January 7th, 2008 at 6:26 pm
Talented offensive players are usually harder to find than the lunch-pail guys. It’s just really difficult to score on a consistent basis in the NBA. NIck Collison is a nice player to have on your roster, but he certainly shouldn’t be untouchable. The only players I wouldn’t be willing to trade at this point are Durant and Green. Not to say that I don’t like anyone else on the team, but no one else is good enough not to listen trade offers.
January 7th, 2008 at 6:37 pm
The Warriors are allegedly interested in signing Gary Payton to play the backup PG role to Baron Davis as Troy Hudson was lost to injury the remainder of the season. I cannot imagine Gary’s signing would allow Nelson to provide any additional rest to Baron Davis as GP was one of the worst players in the NBA last season.
January 7th, 2008 at 6:46 pm
“I’d gladly refer to Kurt Thomas as “blue collar” “lunch pale” guy. In fact, his career opitomizes that kind of consistency and mentality. Nick Collison is right there with Steve Scheffler as more of a lunch-able.” {Brian Robinson}
Who gets off on degrading Nick Collison by comparing him to Steve Scheffler? Collison is a useful role player, while Scheffler was nothing more than a third-string scrub. Collison, however, is slightly overpaid throughout the duration of his contract. Furthermore, I’d rather have a legitimate center — such as Jeff Foster, Joel Przybilla, or Radoslav Nesterovic — on the Seattle Supersonics instead of Collison.
Nevertheless, players who play their ass of each and every game for the team’s betterment deserve more respect than stat stuffers (e.g., Kevin Durant) and lazy slackers (e.g., Chris Wilcox). Of course, it doesn’t normally work that way; sadly, people tend to be enamored with pure talent over actual production.
Anyhow, with regards to Durant — who’s skill set is undeniably similar to high volume shooters such as Alex English, George Gervin, and Tracy McGrady versus well-rounded superstars like Kevin Garnett and Dirk Nowitzki — it’s amusing that I get deemed a “clown” for describing his drawbacks as a player (i.e., low assist rate, high turnover rate, pitiful rebounding numbers, and piss-poor defense).
Yet, if y’all can’t comprehend that Durant (Net +/- Production: -11.4 & Net Points Per 100 Possessions: -10.5) is currently hurting the Supersonics — as currently his only positive attribute is that of scoring points, albeit in an inefficient manner — then so be it. That, without a doubt, is your own biased shortsightedness.
January 7th, 2008 at 6:59 pm
“However, I don’t think I’ve seen Durant’s game improve all that much from game one to game 30…it is starting to worry me. ”
I’ve seen enough of Durants game by now to think that he could have Ray Allens career a few all-star games, a top 10-15 player, be a big part of a few teams that have some good runs in the playoffs but i’m not sure if I see a top 3 player who you can expect to lead the Sonics to championships. Carmelo Anthony is a pretty nice player, been in the league a few years won a national title as a freshman and has a nice supporting cast in Denver and i dont see championships anytime soon for that team. Is Durant going to be better than Anthony?
January 7th, 2008 at 7:01 pm
Paul Milsap and Jason Maxiell are nice players, and great finds in the 2nd round.
But to suggest that 1) the teammates of Brockman and Collison have to work “extra hard” to score because of them, and that 2) because of their offensive defiiencies, their teams are basically playing 4-on-5 when they’re on the court, and 3) their ability to make a contribution depends on their teammates missing shots?
Disagree all you want - different opinions are what it’s all about in a forum like this - but to my way of thinking, those comments reveal a fundamental ignorance of the game and the relative importance of different roles of players.
I have no idea how old some of you guys are, but that point of view is typical of a younger fan - the kind of playground guys who think every player and every role should be a fast-running, quick-jumping, super-athletic, slam-dunking monster who brings the fans to their feet with their exciting plays.
Meanwhile, it’s the “lunch-pail” player who quietly sets the solid hard screens every night that allow the allergic-to-contact pretty boys like Ray Allen and Rashard Lewis to get their 25 - and the lion’s share of credit for the win. It’s the lunch-pail player who bangs with the big boys and tips the offensive rebound out to the pretty boy to hit an uncontested 3 to ice the game. It’s the lunch-pail player - and never the pretty boy - who always risks injury by getting on the floor and diving for the loose ball that results in the extra possession that gets his team back in the game.
Not every player can be a pretty boy. Not every player can be allergic to contact. Do you think it’s a coincidence that Stan Van Gundy recently ripped his team for playing soft and showing no commitment to the defensive end? D you think he was talking about Dwight Howard? No, more likely he was talking about our boy Rashard Lewis. You think guys like Brockman and Collison are easy to come by and easy to ignore and easy to forget?
I’d say that players like Rashard Lewis - the players who like to hang out on the perimeter and shoot 3’s and stay nice and clean while their teammates do the dirty work of taking the charge or grabbing the offensive boards or setting the good screens - are a the ones who are easy to come by and easy to forget.
January 7th, 2008 at 7:12 pm
A lot of functions are interchangeable within a lineup but centers fill certain roles that arent as glamorous as scoring. Being a scoring big makes you very valauble but even among lesser scoring bigs there is a hierarchy and Collison has a modest rank and is not completely and certainly acquired for nothing. There were only 60 bigs in the league who played 20+ minutes, scored 8 pts and grabbed 6 rebs a game. Collison was one of them. He is pretty well rounded. Milsap and Maxiell aren’t that common a discovery and will probably make what Collison makes when their currrent contract is up.
Collison has ended up quite steady on production year to year. I don’t expect much advance. He did improve FT% and cut foul rate but both are probably at their best now.
January 7th, 2008 at 7:15 pm
“I have no idea how old some of you guys are, but that point of view is typical of a younger fan - the kind of playground guys who think every player and every role should be a fast-running, quick-jumping, super-athletic, slam-dunking monster who brings the fans to their feet with their exciting plays. ”
The kind of players that dont win! All style and no substance.
January 7th, 2008 at 7:24 pm
I probably ranted a little more than I needed to, but whatever.
Jon Brockman may not have the skills of past UW greats like Schrempf or Roy or whomever - but the kid busts his ass every time he takes the floor, practice or game, and if his team goes anywhere, it’ll be because of him, not in spite of him.
Besides that, he is an extremely thoughtful, high-character, high-integrity kid. Trust me - he’ll be a lasting success at whatever he chooses to do after basketball. Which is a lot more than I can say for most of the so-called more skilled players, D-1 or NBA.
January 7th, 2008 at 7:32 pm
AK1984 said: “For whatever it’s worth to y’all, Michael Beasley combines the skill set of Carmelo Anthony and a young Shareef Abdur-Rahim — who was a 20/10 player during his prime…”
Boy, if ever there was a stereotype for a “good numbers on a crap team” player, Reef is it. As soon as he wasn’t playing for Vancouver or Atlanta, he vanished. Same goes for Loy Vaught after he moved from the Clippers, that said.
January 7th, 2008 at 7:35 pm
“Not every player can be a pretty boy. Not every player can be allergic to contact. Do you think it’s a coincidence that Stan Van Gundy recently ripped his team for playing soft and showing no commitment to the defensive end? D you think he was talking about Dwight Howard?”
As usual, you have no evidence to support your proposition besides the “I’m older, you don’t understand the game” rhetoric. I think Van Gundy was also talking about Howard. That Howard is a great rebounder doesn’t make him a good defensive player. I like to rely on evidence some of the time when I’m making a subjectiv argument, so here’s a video to support my proposition. Van Gundy rips into his team for not competing and mentions Dwight Howard by name.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZzx5jfgzQ4
I’m stunned that you are a fan of Kevin Durant. He doesn’t strike me as any less of a “pretty boy” than Ray Allen. Also, Celtics fans on some of the Celtics fan blogs have been praising the defense that Ray has played all season.
January 7th, 2008 at 7:41 pm
Didn’t Nick Collison miss three games this season because of a broken nose? Ray Allen was willing to play the entire season with ankles that needed surgical repair before the team decided to tank. So, who’s the pretty boy?
January 7th, 2008 at 7:46 pm
Courtsense said: “I have no idea how old some of you guys are, but that point of view is typical of a younger fan - the kind of playground guys who think every player and every role should be a fast-running, quick-jumping, super-athletic, slam-dunking monster who brings the fans to their feet with their exciting plays.”
Agree entirely. This is exactly what has brought Utah, and more importantly San Antonio, success for so many years. They never bothered drafting grandstanding young high-fliers who make it onto Sportscenter every week, and they’ve done just fine.
The important point here is that this will exactly be Presti’s point of view. He’s got Durant. He doesn’t need any more human highlight films (or probably even their nephews!). Collison is precisely the kind of player that he’s going to be hanging on to.
January 7th, 2008 at 7:55 pm
ajw you are a first class wannabe clown, you are a s- talking punk with no back up besides your inrernet updates. I know alot more about this team than anyone, and 75% I would not share with a clown like you. I have facts oh yes my man facts, those are things that are known to be actual. I know Don Nelson very well, and his son Donnie even better, have done numerous camps with them both, clown. Pj and I definitely know eachother so yes you foolish clown I really do know the facts. I could tell you so many things about this team and it’s future, but would never share them with the likes of you. You piss me off awj boy you know why your a first class wannbe. Have you ever taken an offensive foul, of course not you may get hurt, wimpo. It;s people like you that seriously make people like me who know the game sick. So awj tell me some facts, shit you KNOW, not read. I am going to be all over you my man because I don’t like you. So get ready to get buried my man, because you will be easy as you know absolutely nothing about hoops only what your stupid ass reads, clown.
January 7th, 2008 at 7:59 pm
Well, most teams build around players that can score at an all-star level and surround them with roll players. There isn’t a GM in this league that would take Collison over Lewis. I will say that the guys in this league who do the dirty work don’t always get enough credit for their play. That being said scoring on a consistent basis in the NBA is not an easy thing to do. Just look no further than Damien Wilkins here in Seattle.
In regards to playing the up-tempo, more athletic style play I would say the game has changed. There are less and less teams that have the typical low-post scoring big man that stays in the paint. More teams are relying on having a big that can spread the floor with their shooting and create mismatches. The Phoenix Suns probably have more to do with this change in style of play than anyone else. Although, Don Nelson also has played a large part as well.
I should make it clear that I’m not against playing a more traditional, big-lineup if your roster is built that way. If the Sonics had a top notch low-post scorer like Duncan, or Shaq in his prime than I would be all for being a more half-court oriented team. The fact is though that the Sonics are building around Durant and Green. The strengths of of both those guys are their versatility and ability to play multiple position. This team is built to play and up-tempo style of play and they really struggle to score in the half-court. Their best chance of scoring the ball is to take advantage of their speed and athleticism and try to get as many easy points in the open court as they can.
January 7th, 2008 at 8:01 pm
Oh yeah awj clown boy, do you know PJ, whats he like, you like him, or are you going to tell me something you read about him. Whats he do at practice first thing everyday, you know clownboy. What does he do during practice everyday, you know s-head of course not because you read everything you know or hear. Where are your facts, I am going to enjoy f-ing with you because your an easy target..
January 7th, 2008 at 8:02 pm
Like the Sonics, the Jazz have one winning season in the last four seasons with their “lunch-pail attitude.” I’m not sure why that lack of success is something work mimicking.
The Spurs sure do rely on a bunch of pretty boys, you know “the players who like to hang out on the perimeter and shoot 3’s.” If the Spurs are such a lunch-pail team, why is Poppovich letting all these pretty boys jack up twenty-one threes a game. I thought threes were for pretty boy teams such as the Phoenix Suns?
January 7th, 2008 at 8:03 pm
He obviously can’t talk smack like you either, Bean.
January 7th, 2008 at 8:13 pm
Typical beantown. Asking a question after being asked a question and acting very defensive by foolish name calling. This has been done time after time. This is why I question your so-called identity.
I’d hate to see how’d you act in public if you and your supposedly good friend Sam Presti had a disagreement about the direction of the organization.
January 7th, 2008 at 8:13 pm
Sorry Alex, but I don’t see a lot of pretty boys on the Spurs. Tony Parker’s been going to the rack non-stop for his whole career. Ditto for Ginobli. Horry and Finley are obviously past their prime, but they’ve taken way more than their share of charges in their career, and they’ve both played a lot of tough playoff-caliber defense. Duncan has been the best all-around player of his generation, and the best PF in history. Who am I forgetting?
January 7th, 2008 at 8:19 pm
“The Spurs sure do rely on a bunch of pretty boys, you know “the players who like to hang out on the perimeter and shoot 3’s.” If the Spurs are such a lunch-pail team, why is Poppovich letting all these pretty boys jack up twenty-one threes a game. I thought threes were for pretty boy teams such as the Phoenix Suns? ”
I’d classify Oberto as a lunch-pail type guy. That guys game is pretty grotesque, but it works. Bruce Bowen makes his living doing the dirty on the defensive end. Guys like those are a huge part of success to the Spurs.
January 7th, 2008 at 8:21 pm
Who’s jacking up all those twenty-one pretty-boy threes for San Antonio? San Antonio should be one of league leaders in fewest threes per game attempted if they are as “lunch-pail” as I think you are claiming. Instead, they are one of the league leader in “pretty-boy” shots per game. They shot more “pretty-boy shots” per game during last year’s playoffs than the pretty-boy Phoenix Suns.
Did that Youtube video change your mind about not including Howard in the group that is afraid of contact? Van Gundy mentioning Howard as a culprit by name is pretty good evidence in my opinion.
January 7th, 2008 at 8:24 pm
Using athleticism to your advantage doesn’t necessarily mean you don’t play defense, or do the little things to help your team win. For instance, Shawn Marion plays above the rim, but he is still a pretty good rebounder, and defender. I don’t think it’s fair to assume a player is all style and no substance just because they rely on their athleticism in certain areas. Now there are players out there like Stromile Swift who I would say fit the description of all style and no substance. Jeff Green I would say is a guy who has solid fundamentals and is a pretty good athlete at the same time. I’m just trying to point out that playing an up-tempo-athletic style game doesn’t mean you have to use players that lack the fundamentals and understanding of the game.
January 7th, 2008 at 8:26 pm
Back to the original point, which I believe was should Collison be “untouchable” in trade talks?
Of course not - outside of Durant and Green, nobody’s an untouchable on this team at this time. But that shouldn’t diminish Nick’s contributions nor his value as a role player.
And Alex: I wish I had your obvious level of resourcefulness and web savvy - but just endlessly cutting and pasting stats, audio, video, and other “evidence” to support whatever point you’re making is no substitute for simply knowing the game, and understanding what you’re actually seeing in front of you when you watch a game. That’s why I love talking to coaches, so I can pick their brains and get a better understanding of the game.
And for the record, I liked Ray Allen. I really did. But there’s a reason why a Championship coach called Presti right after the trade with the Celtics and said “congratulations.” And it wasn’t because Ray “toughed it out” on a couple bad ankles.
January 7th, 2008 at 8:31 pm
The Spurs have used Robert Horry and his ability to hit the three-point shot as a major weapon in the past. That falls right in line with the current trend to have a big-man who can spread the floor with their shooting.
January 7th, 2008 at 8:32 pm
Alex said:
“I’m stunned that you are a fan of Kevin Durant. He doesn’t strike me as any less of a “pretty boy” than Ray Allen. Also, Celtics fans on some of the Celtics fan blogs have been praising the defense that Ray has played all season. ”
I’ve always said Ray could play defense, but just usually choses not to. Perhaps he’s playing for a ring now, and it’s all business. Give it a whole season; let’s see if he keeps it up.
January 7th, 2008 at 8:32 pm
Bobby Jones just got waived by the Nuggets. Is he a guy worth picking up at somepoint?? He was a great defender and a hard worker at UW. Might be a little small for the NBA with his poor jumpshot. But i would rather have him than wilkens.
January 7th, 2008 at 8:33 pm
Courtsense…Bet that coach who called Presti you refer to was not Doc rivers! I think Doc is thrilled with Ray. Don’t know what reason you think some GM thought it was good for the Sonics to send Allen out. I also love Ray & think he’s a terrific player - but I can understand the thinking around the trade. I just hope JG becomes the kind of player who will make us look back & say “Great trade for the Sonics”.
That trade likely will be looked back on as a win-win. Helped the Celtics get KG & make a run at the title - maybe even win it. Helped the Sonics get JG who becomes a very solid player alongside KD for a long time. Time will tell but I could see that happening.
January 7th, 2008 at 8:36 pm
Alex, I wasn’t equating the 3-point shot with pretty boys.
I was saying that players who constantly bust their ass doing all the dirty work ala Collison and Brockman deserve big credit and respect for helping their teammates, who often avoid the dirty work because they’d rather stand outside and shoot 3’s.
January 7th, 2008 at 8:46 pm
“And Alex: I wish I had your obvious level of resourcefulness and web savvy - but just endlessly cutting and pasting stats, audio, video, and other “evidence” to support whatever point you’re making is no substitute for simply knowing the game, and understanding what you’re actually seeing in front of you when you watch a game. That’s why I love talking to coaches, so I can pick their brains and get a better understanding of the game.”
Aren’t you giving yourself quite the self-compliment (that you understand the game) with that post? Beantown’s knowledge receives my ultimate respect as he was a former NBA player but I regard everyone else’s opinion as the same drivel that I constantly spew.
January 7th, 2008 at 8:48 pm
Alex, I think you’re making the assumption that courtsense doesn’t value the pretty-boy shooters, which it seems is not correct. The shooters have great value for a competitive team, but only when backed up by the lunch-pail guys. Surely we’d all rather have more well-rounded players that give it all on both ends, who can nail the js, get the rebs, blocks, assists, and play defense, but those guys are very hard to get. Most teams have to work with several lunch pail guys to complement their high flyer(s).
Part of the value that is being described here is the “team player” aspect. Players who jack up shots all day are often playing for their own stats, even team leaders like Ray Allen. The lunch pail guy is ALWAYS playing team ball.
January 7th, 2008 at 8:50 pm
Maybe Collison is overpaid, maybe not. Who else could we have gotten at the time?
He’s a smart player, works his butt off, unselfish. He’ll be a good player for a long time.
He’ll get the mid-range jumper % up, and he’ll be an integral part of a championship team.
Just a prediction.
January 7th, 2008 at 8:50 pm
Courtsense, I would agree that the guys doing the dirty work night in and night out don’t always get the credit they deserve. The thing is they also don’t have to deal with getting the blame when the team losses. That usually falls on the stars like Ray Allen and Kevin Durant. Star players have a tremendous amount of pressure that falls on their shoulders that roll players just don’t at the same level.
January 7th, 2008 at 8:54 pm
“That trade likely will be looked back on as a win-win. Helped the Celtics get KG & make a run at the title - maybe even win it. Helped the Sonics get JG who becomes a very solid player alongside KD for a long time. Time will tell but I could see that happening.”
I’d rather be Boston right now tearing up the league with a 2-4 year window for rings than the Supes hoping Durant, Green develop and we find the pieces to be good in 3-5 years, maybe! LIKE I’VE SAID BEFORE I HAVE NO PATIENCE FOR REBUILDING.
This might be the worst season in our 41 year history.
January 7th, 2008 at 8:56 pm
“Maybe Collison is overpaid, maybe not. Who else could we have gotten at the time?”
In the draft? Well, the Sonics could have drafted David West, Josh Howard, and Barbosa. Collison benefitted from playing at a big-name school. West and Howard didn’t receive the hype that Collison received at Kansas since they played at smaller schools. The same effect may occur with that Harnsbrough kid from North Carolina when he declares for the draft because he plays at such a well-known school.
January 7th, 2008 at 8:57 pm
“Aren’t you giving yourself quite the self-compliment (that you understand the game) with that post? Beantown’s knowledge receives my ultimate respect as he was a former NBA player but I regard everyone else’s opinion as the same drivel that I constantly spew.”
I agree. A majority of what you say is drivel! No, I don’t have any stats to back that up.
January 7th, 2008 at 8:58 pm
RE: Collison - has anyone else noticed that he seems to get winded out there when playing long minutes? Perhaps I’m seeing things here, but if not this may be the reason they don’t keep him in there more than 33 mins, and usually somewhat fewer (even when facing a lack of replacements).
January 7th, 2008 at 9:01 pm
My so called identity is what got me my so called knowlege. I asked you a simple question, why can’t you answer it. What do you know about this teams practices from fact. What do you know about PJ’s relationships with his players from fact, very simple questions for a clown like you to answer but again you choose not to because you know shit my man.. I would hate to see how you would act in public if I saw your sorry ass, looking up and shitting your pants, it would be funny. You have never shown me any knowlege on this blog about hoop, just someone who thinks they know it all. So one more time clown boy what do you know about this team that is fact.. Ask me anything clownman about this game and I will make your foolish head spin..You see why I choose to remain anonymous, because of clowns like you that know shit about this game, and for me to stoop to your poor ass level is not going to happen clown boy. You want to play one on one, c’mon games 21, I will spot you 20, you take it out and I will still kick your sorry ass, you know why because of my so called identity, clown..
January 7th, 2008 at 9:02 pm
In heinsight its pretty easy to say you could have taken Barbosa, Josh Howard, or David West instead of Collison in the 03 draft. But at the time nobody in their right mind would have done that.
Now Ridnour is a different story…..
January 7th, 2008 at 9:03 pm
Kid was an all-american, 4-year player who averaged a double-double in helping lead the team to the championship game.
Many missed on West, who I like a lot. Sweetney was the player most people wanted instead of Collison, thank goodness we didn’t get him.
And no, I wasn’t talking about the draft. The extension.
January 7th, 2008 at 9:03 pm
Here’s a typical Sonicscentral argument:
“Player X stinks. I am correct because I understand the game and you don’t. Though I’ve never been paid more than minimum wage to do anything related to basketball, I understand the game. You know, I, uh, coach a bunch of middle school kids. That means I understand the game. You can just trust me because I understand the game. Did I tell you that I understand the game?”
January 7th, 2008 at 9:05 pm
” You want to play one on one, c’mon games 21, I will spot you 20, you take it out and I will still kick your sorry ass, you know why because of my so called identity, clown.. ”
I’d pay money to see that! Let’s set it up Beantown
January 7th, 2008 at 9:10 pm
Well Alex. Not everything is about numbers. In fact there are a lot of things that can’t be measured by stats.
I’ve seen you try to use assist to turnover ratio to say a player wasn’t a good ballhandler. Thats just wrong in every way. There are a lot of things you can just see. Lots of common sense which you don’t possess.
PS: You lose even more credibility when you say things like “Gary Payton was the worst player in the league last season”.
January 7th, 2008 at 9:21 pm
OK Frozenropey you got me, I guess K. Pritchard signed a few guys but I was going on statements by Doug Collins et al on the Xmas day broadcast, to the effect that Nate had some input on getting blue-collar guys like Outlaw & Jones in there.
January 7th, 2008 at 9:23 pm
Menace, you really have a tough team reading posts carefully. I said he was one of the worst, not the worst player in the league. He can’t shoot or defend anymore. You tell me what he can do except bark?
How’s Brewer’s defense these days? Is it common sense to believe that the Sonics would stop in Boston, as you believed, when their road trip started in Orlando, Miami and Atlanta? That’s not what any NBA fan would believe based on elementary geography and an understanding of the NBA schedule.
I would agree that assist-to-turnover ratio has nothing to do with ballhandling. Slip of the tongue.
January 7th, 2008 at 9:25 pm
Collison is a role player. Every team needs one. Pretty sure nobody is saying he is a bad player….but he is what he is. He is a good/smart fundamental role player. A glue guy.
But by no means is he a player you build around or say is “untouchable” or “an integral part of the team”.
January 7th, 2008 at 9:29 pm
Having never played nor coached the game at a level higher than rec league, I obviously cannot claim the breadth and depth of basketball knowledge of someone like beantown.
But that doesn’t mean everyone else’s level of knowledge is equal.
We all spout our drivel, and occasionally some of us come up with something fairly intelligent to say. Don’t sell yourself short, Alex, you’ve made your share of astute observations along the way.
I watched my first NBA game on TV in 1964. I attended my first NBA game in 1970: it was the Lakers with Elgin Baylor, Jerry West, and Wilt Chamberlain vs. the Sonics with Lenny Wilkens and bunch of guys you’ve never heard of. Between then and now, I have no idea how many games I’ve seen or how many I’ve attended. Hundreds? Thousands?
Do I occasionally say stupid things or hold opinions about players or coaches or teams or fans or franchises that later turn out to be dead wrong? Yes. Again and again.
But I still know and understand the game and its history, at least on the NBA level. So if that constitutes giving myself “quite a self compliment” so be it. There aren’t too many things in this life I’d say I know or understand - music and philosophy may be the only others - but NBA basketball is on the short list.
At least that’s what the voices in my head tell me.
January 7th, 2008 at 9:35 pm
“Menace, you really have a tough team reading posts carefully. I said he was one of the worst, not the worst player in the league. He can’t shoot or defend anymore. You tell me what he can do except bark?”
My mistake. Not the worst…..one of the worst. Huge difference I guess. I know in your mind he is one of the worst people in the world because he called a stripper a “whore”, but to say he was one of the worst in the L last year is more drivel from your mouth. I never said he was good anymore…..but to say he was one of the worst is pure fluff and you know it.
“How’s Brewer’s defense these days? Is it common sense to believe that the Sonics would stop in Boston, as you believed, when their road trip started in Orlando, Miami and Atlanta?”
Brewer’s defense will always be better than Kyle Korvers. I don’t care what numbers say.
Yeah I made a typo a few months ago. I thought Boston was part of the road trip. They weren’t. I was wrong. Is that all you have on me?
January 7th, 2008 at 9:35 pm
Alex Chan said:
“Though I’ve never been paid more than minimum wage to do anything related to basketball, I understand the game.”
Great line. I’m still searching for my first minimum wage hoops gig.
Hey Alex: Beatles or Stones?
January 7th, 2008 at 9:39 pm
Alex, those players u mentioned that we could have drafted instead of Nick are really players we also could have drafted instead of Ridnour.
Anyway, I say Nick Collison is a keeper. Untouchable? No, but I wouldn’t take him lightly in regards to trade ideas with other teams either. A 4/5 with toughness, fundamentals, intelligence, and decent skills. I’ll take him over a player like Chris Wilcox every single day of the week..
January 7th, 2008 at 9:48 pm
Courtsense, Stones and Beattles were before my time. I’m not a big music guy but the artist whose work that I have always enjoyed is Alicia Keyes.
Menace, if I said Wilcox was the worst starting PF in the Western Conference, that would be incorrect. If I said Wilcox was one of the worst starting PFs in the Western Conference, wouldn’t that be a completely different statement from saying he is the worst starting PFs in the Western Conference? I’m really just joking Menace. My assumption here is a big-boy that can dish it and take it.
Howard and West had very impressive college resumes, resumes that I believe would compare favorably with Nick’s college resume. GMs simply missed the boat with West and Howard and the Sonics brass may have overvalued Collison at the #12 pick. Collison played on a team with two other NBA players that were first-round picks.
January 7th, 2008 at 9:53 pm
Alicia Keys? hahahahahhahahahahahahahahahah
January 7th, 2008 at 9:54 pm
Alex, as I remember it the Sonics brass were elated that Nick fell to them at 12. Rather it’s Ridnour who they picked slightly higher than projected as I remember it.
The Collison pick made good sense in retrospect, and was a solid(safe) pick for an FO who left alot to be desired when it came to making safe, solid picks…
January 7th, 2008 at 10:02 pm
“…[in the mid-60s] the Beatles looked like they wanted to hold your hand, while the Stones looked like they wanted to ravish your sister.”
“It was decreed that the Beatles should be portrayed as incredibly lovable, amiable fellows, and if one of them, without mentioning any names, wanted to have a short orgy with three girls in the bathroom, then I didn’t see it.”
http://www.believermag.com/issues/200706/?read=article_mcmillian
January 7th, 2008 at 10:03 pm
Epx, it doesn’t have to be one, or the other regarding Collison and Wilcox. They both provide different elements to the team and are actually a decent combo playing together. I will say that the team is really struggling offensively with Wilcox out. They need all the scoring options they can get to take some of the pressure off of Durant and Wally.
The people on this site seem to favor Collison over Wilcox, but I personally like both players. I haven’t looked up the plus/minus numbers lately, but last time I checked both guys were two of the better players in that regard. In a sense playing them together isn’t a bad idea since they strike a pretty good balance of offense/defense.
January 7th, 2008 at 10:05 pm
Courtsense, which team was better in your opinion. The 96 Bulls or the 86 Celtics?
January 7th, 2008 at 10:08 pm
Hah. I was just going to say, Alex doesn’t strike me as a music guy. Damn, I’m good.
Hey courtsense: BEATLES baby, mostly due to forcefeeding from before birth until I flew the coop. But I love the Stones too.
January 7th, 2008 at 10:10 pm
Eli, I thought the combo of the 2 was pretty good, until I soured on Wilcox. I think his offense is replaceable as well. I hope u’re right on him, and I’m wrong, but I’m at the point now, where I just don’t like him(even though I still see potential), and don’t see him as a future piece either, so I’d rather just cut my losses now.
January 7th, 2008 at 10:19 pm
“Hey Alex: Beatles or Stones? ”
Beatles!
Hey Courtsense one of the first games i can remember going to was Seattle- LA 70-71 maybe that same game!
January 7th, 2008 at 10:34 pm
Wilcox started the year off with a bang and has struggled since then. Of course that’s really not any different than the rest of the players on the team. There have really only been 2-3 guys that are even close to playing at a consistent level so far.
In fairness to Wilcox it sounded as if that nagging leg injury he had was slowing him down. Also, I think he was correct when he talked about not being used enough in pick and roll sets with the PG, which seemed to be fairly effective last year. Anyway, his average of 14 points and 7 rebounds isn’t terrible considering he only plays around 30 minutes per game. You factor in his positive plus/minus numbers and he’s not the awful player people make him out be. Just my opinion.
January 7th, 2008 at 11:12 pm
Fair enough Eli, & I don’t think he’s awful, but he’s still not the type of player I want on my team ideally(too inconsistent, and hasn’t been on a winner in the NBA yet). Out of fairness there’s about 3, or 4 players I would try to exit b4 him…
January 7th, 2008 at 11:15 pm
I gotta come out of the closet. I like GS(no pun intended by the way)…
January 7th, 2008 at 11:22 pm
Oh God, you’re really scrambling my brain cells now, Alex…
Before I answer, let me see what I remember off the top of my head:
The 96 Bulls won 72 games and beat Seattle 4-2 in the Finals. They started Jordan, Harper, Pippen, Rodman, and Luc Longley. Off the bench I think they had Wennington, Kerr, and who else? Okay - Kukoc, Jud Buechler, and Randy Brown. Fantastic defensive team - 3 guys on all-defense? Hard to beat any that. Can’t remember how many playoff games they lost that year, but it couldn’t have been more than a couple.
The 86 Celtics beat Houston’s Twin Towers in the Finals, which was when beantown’s buddy Sichting challenged Ralph Sampson to a fight. The Celtics started DJ, Ainge, Bird, McHale, and Parish, and had Walton off the bench as 6th man of the year, along with Wedman on the wing and Sichting in the backcourt. Very tight 8-man rotation for KC Jones. My memory of that team is they were the best passing team I’ve ever seen. How many assists did they average? It had to be an insane amount. Bird, DJ, McHale, Parish, Walton - all great passers.
Different times and different eras. I much prefer the Celtics style of play, but the Bulls were probably the more physically dominant team with Jordan, Pippen, Rodman, and Harper all pretty much interchangeablle defensively. They could switch anything. Celtics were just a pure, balanced team who could execute teams to death.
That’s my .02 worth…hope I passed the exam.
January 7th, 2008 at 11:29 pm
Definitely the Beatles!
Hoooop, the Sonics-Lakers game I went to was played in Hec Ed Pavillion. I don’t remember why, but for some reason the Supes played a handful of games there instead of the Coliseum that year - probably a scheduling conflict with a freaking hockey game! Anyway, I was stuck behind one of those vertical columns that used to support the old ceiling, so when the teams changed ends, I had to lean over onto the guy next to me to see the transition game. I was only 12 so it was cool - I was just happy to be in the building with Wilt and West and Baylor.
January 7th, 2008 at 11:36 pm
The 96 Bulls lost three times in the playoffs. I don’t really hold the two losses to the Sonics against them in terms of discussions for the greatest team ever. The series was over for all intensive purposes after Game 3. Did anyone think the Supes would come back to win four in a row against Jordan?
GS is one of my favorite teams as well. Their win against the Spurs should be taken in context however. SA was playing the second game of a back-to-back and it is no surprise that they ran out of gas in the overtime. The Spurs couldn’t keep the Warriors off the three-point line. SA will almost always win when they shoot 40% on twenty-five three point attempts.
January 7th, 2008 at 11:57 pm
“I asked you a simple question, why can’t you answer it.”
I asked you one first.
January 8th, 2008 at 12:10 am
Beantown I’d like to go back and forth with you, but all you can come up with is just challenges to street fights, challenges to 1 on 1 on the court, and backfiring with questions that aren’t even relevant. I mean, who cares what the hell PJ does first thing in practice. He can masturbate in the middle of the court for all I care. I first asked you why YOU think the Sonics players don’t respect PJ, which I thought was a rediculous comment considering there’s no way to find out right now unless you’re on the team. But you fire back with childish lame name calling while acting condescending.
I really hope you aren’t in your 30’s, 40’s or 50’s, because if you were, that’d be sad considering the way you debate with others.
January 8th, 2008 at 12:14 am
“Wilcox started the year off with a bang and has struggled since then. Of course that’s really not any different than the rest of the players on the team. There have really only been 2-3 guys that are even close to playing at a consistent level so far.”
There has been a lot of talk of Wilcox improving his offensive game. I just don’t see it. Everytime he’s gotten the ball in the post, he goes to the same move everytime which is a couple of dribbles while backing down his man, turning and shooting a fadeaway jumper. You don’t see him recieve the pass, pivot to face the basket, and make any kind of move. He’s struggled against bigger interior players that are active, and hasn’t been able to read double teams well. If he’s not scoring the ball, then he is truly useless to this team.
January 8th, 2008 at 12:21 am
If Wilcox could set a pick and rebound he’d be a really nice player. He’s a nice player now, but he’d be really nice if he could offer some more pieces to the puzzle. And defend.
January 8th, 2008 at 12:22 am
“Alicia Keys? hahahahahhahahahahahahahahahah ”
Nothing wrong with Alicia Keys. Fallin’ is a classic!
January 8th, 2008 at 12:29 am
A player that I was hoping Wilcox would turn into one day was Amare Stoudemire. I love Amare’s game because he uses his speed, athleticism and tenacity to continuously attack the rim. If Wilcox improves drastically in the offseason, and the planets and stars line up perfectly, you might see Wilcox in Amare’s mold.
January 8th, 2008 at 3:28 am
Beantown (or courtsense) any opinion about the career of Ralph Sampson? The guy was so hyped coming out of college. He must be one of the tallest people ever to spend some time in a federal correctional facility.
January 8th, 2008 at 5:49 am
You can’t go back and fourth with awj clownman because you don’t have a clue. Who cares what PJ does at the beginning of practice is your answer totally lame. Why can’t you say I don’t know, admitt your a fool. You see you fool I do know alot of behind the scenes things that go on, and no I am not on the team. I am well respected throughout the basketball world, something you know nothing about. So yes d-head I know alot about this team things that I would not share first off our of respect for Sam, and second guys like you are a waste of time to speak to not only about hoop but team concepts spmething you know nothing about. So awj you are my new target, I am going to rip you my man because your a punk, with no back up of what you say or knowlege of this game. I have again read some of your post to see what I am dealing with, you really are a s-talking punk. I answered your questions with facts not something I think is legit. You can’t answer my questions because you never played this game, and know nothing about this game.. So awj bring it on, your going to be very sorry you f-ed with me because I am going to make you look silly you know why wannabe I played and coached and know this game, you have done niether, but plenty of playing with yourself.
January 8th, 2008 at 7:26 am
Ralph Sampson was a waste of talent, he had so much potential, and had some game. He was known to smoke alot of grass and also known not to give a f-. No awj this is not something I read I played aginst him, and know of his reputation, again I said know not what I read. I know several guys that played with him, he was never strong in the post, to light. He was athletic and could jump witch defensively he was tough, but got into foul trouble early because he would try to block every shot.. awj you know Sampson, whats he like, ok tell me what you read, and I will tell you what is fact. Come on lets go back and forth, you fool. awj you know Ricky Stokes, I do he was the point guard who played with Sampson, who was the coach c’mon don’t you know. It was Terry Holland, who is the AD at East Carolina, where Ricky Stokes is the head coach. this is fact awj because yes I know all of these guys very well also fact. Now what do you know about Ralph Sampson awj, if you don’t know say I don’t know because I am a wannabe, clown..
January 8th, 2008 at 8:30 am
Did anyone see watson’s comments about not getting any spot up jump shots. This is true, Watson and DWest never get the ball swung back to them, and this is sad because Dwest could be a deadly shooter with the right team and a good coach who runs a good offense. How many pick and rolls are they going to run. I don’t think pj has a good sense of his players’ abilities. For example: every time Petro is in the game, he ends up taking way too many shots in the pick and rolls. Run a play. Put the players in good positions to utilize their skills. The players need to be a lot less selfish and find the open man.
January 8th, 2008 at 8:42 am
Geez beantown; I guess you gotta be pretty tough to play in New Jersey!
January 8th, 2008 at 9:16 am
In retrospect I should have put a different spin on Gervin “not getting out of conference finals”. While it was surely disappointing to him and the team’s fans, success at the very highest levels is very tough and a loss at that level is no shame. Not getting out of first round, I would be ok with making criticism about that, it is a hurdle that McGrady must get over or it will stay with him. Gervin’s regular season Win % isn’t amazing but regular season is playoff qualifying and entertainment. Gervin got to the conference finals several times. He was an offensive player, often a part of the successful mix (though champion #1s are usually 2 way strong players). He didnt get everything but he got pretty close.
Durant wants everything and right now the hope is that he and his teammates will achieve that. Defense, shooting /scoring efficently and sharing the rock are all concerns but he has a good chance to sort it out.
January 8th, 2008 at 9:22 am
Wade got his title with a older Shaq and a good not great defense. That gives hope a team can slip in and win.
James is mainly an offensive player who was surrounded with defense and got his Finals shot.
There are ways Durant can get there. If Presti does a great job.
January 8th, 2008 at 9:28 am
Does anybody besides beantown remember how Houston got to the Finals to face Boston in 86? Well, it was Ralph Sampson who hit the turnaround fallaway jump shot at the buzzer to upset the heavily favored Lakers in the West!
If I’m not mistaken, that play was preceded by Magic Johnson boning a gimme shot that would’ve won the game.
Ahhh, memories…
January 8th, 2008 at 11:55 am
“I answered your questions with facts not something I think is legit.”
Actually you didn’t. Your posts don’t even make sense half the time. I suggest going back to college for some remedial english classes.
You still haven’t answered the question of why you think Sonics players don’t respect PJ. You keep dodging it over and over.
January 8th, 2008 at 11:57 am
Beantown I won’t answer you because I’m better than you, I can beat up Robert Swift, I was a first round pick, and I guarded Kevin McHale in the post.
January 8th, 2008 at 12:29 pm
Courtsense I remember that Sampson shot.
Age gives some advantage in perspective but there are a lot of sharp younger basketball watchers here too. The stereotypes of the old/new NBA fan may be gnerally true in aggregrate but every fan is different and starts out with respect and takes shape based on their comments. Lots to pick up on from many sources. The best basketball minds are the ones who take from others what is worth taking, and doesnt waste time or the not worth pursuiing and develops some new stuff too and puts it together in a sensible blend and then stands behind it and apllies it. And then tweaks as necessary and keeps learning and adjusting til the finish line victory.
January 8th, 2008 at 12:32 pm
should be in above…
…doesnt waste time “on” the not worth pursuiing…
January 8th, 2008 at 12:38 pm
Nobody is obiligated to answer anybody else’s questions here or in a specific way. It is generally good form but they can if they want to.
I am pleased Watson had his individual game pretty well together. Still not the team leadership and defense that splashed so favroably in spring 06 but I’ll take the improvement over last season.
January 8th, 2008 at 1:47 pm
After seeing the G that Beantown brought to this thread, I think it’s a bit hypocritical to keep AK’s posts in moderation.
-*-*-*-
Hoooop Says:
LIKE I’VE SAID BEFORE I HAVE NO PATIENCE FOR REBUILDING.
This might be the worst season in our 41 year history.
If Presti is able to jettison a few more vets this before the end of the summer, next season could very well be worse.
-*-*-*-
Beatles & ‘87 Lakers.
January 8th, 2008 at 2:31 pm
Amazing that no one ever mentions the 71-72 Lakers, who won 33 freaking games in a row, when discussing the greatest teams ever. If a team even wins half that many in a row now, we piss all over ourselves.
January 8th, 2008 at 2:35 pm
I didn’t start watching hoops until ‘75, so i’ll only go by the teams i’ve witnessed play. I wouldn’t want Beantown to accuse me of only using stats & articles.
January 8th, 2008 at 2:56 pm
Dick, that Laker team was unbelievable. Here’s some random stats for you:
Led the league in:
Team scoring (121.0 ppg)
Rebounding (56.4 rpg)
Assists (27.2 apg)
Point Differential (+12.3 ppg)
They went unbeaten from Nov 5th 1971 to January 9th 1972, winning their final 14 games in November, all 16 games in December, and their first 3 in January. They were 36-5 at home, 2-1 on neutral courts, and their 31-7 road record (.816%) remains the best in NBA history.
Individually:
Wilt: 14.8 ppg, 19.2 rpg (#1), .649 fg% (#1), All-Defense,
West: 25.8 ppg (6th), 9.7 apg (#1), All-NBA 1st team
Goodrich: 25.9 ppg (5th), .850 FT% (3rd)
McMillian: 18.8 ppg, 6.5 rpg
Hairston: 13.1 ppg, 13.1 rpg
Wilt had 24 pts and 29 rebs in the deciding Game 5 win over the Knicks and was the Finals MVP.
They were probably the most fun team I’ve ever watched, as they just dominated opponents in so many different ways.
January 8th, 2008 at 2:56 pm
You got some kinda ball bag Dickie. And Courtsense, I saw that team and no, I didn’t piss all over myself.. I saw what my old man used to call testicular fortitude… but you wouldn’t know what that means do you? Of course not cause you’re too busy pissing on yourself to understand basketball, balls, bags, beans or beanbags for that matter….
Just trying to get a lil respect is all
January 8th, 2008 at 3:02 pm
Huh?
January 8th, 2008 at 4:14 pm
I get balloholic’s point. Talk basketball without the pissing, etc. Lighthearted or otherwise, from many sources, I don’t want to wade thru that verbage either.
January 8th, 2008 at 4:21 pm
A little of that pops up now and then and hasn’t been a big deal but if more and more drifts in it becomes more annoying.
January 9th, 2008 at 10:17 am
Crow, you’re the man.
January 9th, 2008 at 2:37 pm
Thanks ballaholic but you had it right yourself. Virtually all of us are grown men.
Most of us are here to talk basketball.
It can a casual place even a feisty place sometimes
but basketball is the main thing. Keeping it mostly enjoyable would be good. I don’t see the need to bring piss. poop and other references into the conversation. But I never liked movies that do that either. But that’s just my preference.
January 9th, 2008 at 8:46 pm
Well I can respect that Crow & Balloholic. Let’s keep out the piss. With an occasional humorous reference allowed, of course.
January 10th, 2008 at 10:33 am
Well that, and I was trying to do my best Beantown impersonation. Apparently not a very good one.
January 10th, 2008 at 11:47 am
Speedcat, humor is fine. Probably needed now more than ever. Adult humor occasionally wouldnt bother me. It is in the context of putdowns that the language becomes an issue. But most unpleasant outbreaks run their course and it is on the next thread (and maybe the next scene but whatever).
May 8th, 2008 at 3:03 pm
birth defects
A child who undergoes a crucial stage during the first few years of his life with some unwanted conditions which is not normal is considered as cerebral palsy. This will usually describe the damaged and impaired development of a child which will includ…