Sonics Vs. Nets Game Thread
Posted on Wednesday, January 9th, 2008 at 1:12 pm by Xteve
4 consecutive double-doubles for Kidd and Richard Jefferson dominating?
Well, at least it’s got to be more interesting to watch than that Cavs game.
“Call me new jersey cuz I’m always in a new jersey
Type to go trade a foreign when the rims get to dirty
My drop is a damn dancer, topless like a lap dancer
Own the city and I care, so they call me “Care-Manter”
-Chamillionaire
January 9th, 2008 at 1:25 pm
Ya i have to admit that the game last night was one of the more boring games I have watched this year. It continues to baffle me whenever Damien Wilkins gets into the game how he manages to turn the ball over multiple times, take bad shots and miss open teammates. I pray that he doesn’t get the starting nod tonight if KD doesn’t play.
BTW is their any update on how long he will be out or if he will be out at all?
January 9th, 2008 at 1:33 pm
I hope so Carlesimo will play Wally tonight for 30+ minutes,thats only way sonics can win tonight….
January 9th, 2008 at 1:36 pm
Tidbit: After last night’s game, when FSN was previewing this game, Durant mentioned that Vince Carter was his biggest idol.
January 9th, 2008 at 1:37 pm
Going to be another pathetic attempt, lazy defense, PJ pretending to coach good, Nick Collison shooting air balls, etc…
I’m starting to think that Damien has proved he can score for his uncle and maybe he is retaliating against PJ and Clay’s regime by pretending to play bad? lol, who knows… but I too did not watch most of the Cavs game.
January 9th, 2008 at 1:44 pm
By the way I hope Wilcox plays soon… I hope this is not like last season where Jesus Shuttlesworth an Rashard sat out a ton of games only to get traded away.
January 9th, 2008 at 1:50 pm
Shawn, you around? Any reports from France on that young PG over there? Rodrigue Beaubois? Sounds like he could be an interesting option if we don’t win the Rose sweepstakes to use a late first round early second round pick on based on his nbadraft.net write-up.
Beantown, you still got any of those Australian contacts? What is the word on that monster, Nathan Jawai (PF)?
January 9th, 2008 at 1:58 pm
Is Kidd really going for a quadruple tripletripleuple? Too bad Watson isn’t much of a lockdown defender against a superstar. Good thing Watson can jump in the air with the ball and fake everybody out and then land with grace before he passes the ball to the Cavs…I had to look away too.
January 9th, 2008 at 2:01 pm
The Sonic’s Rock Concert commercial is dynamite.
January 9th, 2008 at 2:08 pm
Looks like the Hornets are going to Oklahoma City at the end of this season, unless they draw 15,000 fans a game from now until then. Big news. Go Sonics!
January 9th, 2008 at 2:16 pm
Where did you get that?
January 9th, 2008 at 2:17 pm
I guess the Hornets never left Oklahoma City.
January 9th, 2008 at 2:20 pm
Congrats to the new owners of the Storm!
January 9th, 2008 at 2:27 pm
Looks like the Hornets are going to Oklahoma City at the end of this season, unless they draw 15,000 fans a game from now until then.
I don’t believe that to be an accurate assessment of the situation, the new contract signed by the Hornets and the City of NO (which the opt out clause is after the 2008-2009 season) or their ability to get back into Oklahoma City, given the NBA has publically stated the Sonics ownership group has first dibs on the Oklahoma City market after their relocation request was filed and nobody contested the Oklahoma City market within 45 days after the filing.
If that isn’t the best run-on sentence in the world, then I don’t know what is.
The New Orleans situation is definately going to start bringing some pressure on the Sonics situation though. Can the NBA hold the Oklahoma City market for Bennett for the next three years, if the team is required by law to stay in Seattle through the maturity of the lease? Can it be held for him indefinately? Would that be fair to other NBA owners?
January 9th, 2008 at 2:32 pm
Durant has given props to every star he has contact with. He loves the game and respects what they did to build the house he gets to play in.
January 9th, 2008 at 2:35 pm
Crow Says:
“Durant has given props to every star he has contact with. He loves the game and respects what they did to build the house he gets to play in.”
That’s a great post, Crow.
January 9th, 2008 at 2:45 pm
I realize that. I was just pointing out that he not only said Carter was an idol, but clarified it to say he was his main, biggest idol, or some such wording as that.
January 9th, 2008 at 2:57 pm
hmm I thought Durant also said that LeBron and Carmelo was his idol growing up.
January 9th, 2008 at 2:58 pm
Beaubois just turned Pro for Cholet, he basically doesn’t have playing time there this season.
He is a great physical prospect but has nothing to do in the NBA right now, I just don’t see him going to the draft this year, not ready at all.
He needs another year or two.
January 9th, 2008 at 3:03 pm
Talking about European PG prospect, Rubio is simply amazing.
The best european prospect of all time.
January 9th, 2008 at 3:03 pm
Thanks for the info Dick. Not doubting or rejecting it. I was just saying that I’d heard what mooshoo had.
January 9th, 2008 at 3:05 pm
I just read that the Hornets just made a 2 year contract extension on their arena lease. So where is this whole leaving crap coming from unless they draw enough fans?
January 9th, 2008 at 3:11 pm
Thanks also courtsense.
Rubio in pictures is looking more like a young man and less just a kid. #1 in 09 draft? Best PG prospect in a generation? Will have to read more and try to view his clips.
January 9th, 2008 at 3:13 pm
I found this…
The Boston Globe is reporting that if the New Orleans Hornets don’t average close to 15,000 fans in home games starting with tonight’s contest against the Lakers through all home games until February of 2009, the franchise will be allowed out of their lease with the New Orleans Arena by the State of Louisiana.
If that happens, the Hornets would be allowed to move if they choose. Although tonight’s Lakers game is sold out, the Hornets have averaged an NBA-worst 11,871 fans this season through 15 games. Potential suitors could include Oklahoma City, Kansas City and Las Vegas. If this happens, it could be great news for fans of the Seattle SuperSonics.
January 9th, 2008 at 3:14 pm
PJ should really consider changing the starting lineup, as well as the rotation he’s using until Wilcox gets back. I believe the Sonics should put their best five players out on the floor, instead of using a mediocre big like petro. I mean besides being 7-feet tall, what does Petro really provide? He doesn’t rebound well, he’s a poor defender, and his offense is erratic. If he would put his focus on rebounding and defense he might be okay, but as is right now he wants to shoot the ball every time he touches it.
As i’ve mentioned in previous posts I would go to a quicker, more athletic lineup and I would get Gelebale back in the rotation. This would be my starting lineup until Wilcox gets back:
PG: Watson
SG: Gelebale
SF: Durant
PF: Green
C: Thomas
That would allow you to bring Collison off the bench as a backup 4/5. With Wilcox out I would use an 8 man rotation with West, Wally, and Collison coming off the bench. If someone gets in foul trouble Wilkins, or Petro could step in for spot minutes, but both those guys are really hurting the team right now when they play.
I realize that’s a pretty short rotation, but I Gelebale should be fresh at this point and can fill in at the 2, or 3. West can also fill in at the 2 if need be. I would even try playing Durant at times at the 4 if it was the right matchup. Obviously, he doesn’t have the strength right now to guard a player like Duncan in the low-post, but against a team that plays small-ball he would be fine. For instance, against the Suns he could play the 4. Marion isn’t exactly a player I worry about being a post-up threat.
I just feel like things are getting really stale on the offensive end and PJ isn’t really trying anything new. Too much one on one and not enough ball movement. I would like to see PJ be a little more creative with his lineups, because one thing the Sonics do have is versatile players. Maybe going to the quicker lineup would help spark the offense and get this team back to pushing the ball. I know it would be a little undersized, but I would rather put five players on the floor that can contribute than waste minutes on a player like Petro. I seriously wonder what the offense would look like for this team if Don Nelson were the coach.
January 9th, 2008 at 3:15 pm
Draftexpress had a brief comment that his defense was still awful- against men in ACB at least. Do you agree with that Shawn? Do you think he will get better and could fare ok on defense in NBA?
January 9th, 2008 at 3:20 pm
Does anyone on this site ever feel like Paul Westhead might have been a better choice as head coach? I know it’s much too early to give up on PJ, but I’m just not sure the roster really fits what he wants to do. Westhead seems like his style of coaching, especially on the offensive end, might fit this team better.
January 9th, 2008 at 3:21 pm
I don’t agree.
Not a terrific defender yes, but awful clearly not.
Long arms and very quick hands, very good in steals.
Decent size and quickness, he should be ok even in the NBA
January 9th, 2008 at 3:25 pm
I don’t really know what is his contract status though.
Spanish Teams are rich enough to give some very solid contracts (especially when a Euro equals 1.4 dollars), Fran Vasquez is an example.
January 9th, 2008 at 3:25 pm
Beaubois just turned Pro for Cholet, he basically doesn’t have playing time there this season.
Thanks for the info, will be interesting to see how Presti uses some of those 2nd round picks we have. It would be nice to draft some younger Euros that have potential and can be left over seas for a season or two.
January 9th, 2008 at 3:28 pm
Interesting approach Eli.
Wonder if Durant / Green play today.
If Nelson coached Sonics I think we might see a little of Wilkins at small running game PF (like Nate used his first year). At least I’d consider it- he could be the faceup 4 alongside Green as a post 3. He isnt Marion but maybe he could use that model to advantage moreso than the Ray Allen model he has lately.
January 9th, 2008 at 3:31 pm
Shawn, what about this Danilo Gallinari kid. Supposedly he’s the best prospect in Europe right now with comparisons to Dirk and Detlef Schrempf. Can he play shooting guard?
January 9th, 2008 at 3:33 pm
Not a shooting guard at all but a good prospect for the SF position.
He is playing well in the Euroleague
January 9th, 2008 at 3:38 pm
Frozenropers Says:
January 9th, 2008 at 3:25 pm
“Thanks for the info, will be interesting to see how Presti uses some of those 2nd round picks we have. It would be nice to draft some younger Euros that have potential and can be left over seas for a season or two.”
I’m hoping Presti takes a look at DJ White of Indiana in the second round. I think he might be this drafts version of Jason Maxiell, probably not as good a shotblocker as Maxiell was in college. The guy is a banger down low and is relentless. He suffered a major injury last year but if we’re going to dangle Wilcox or Collison in trade talks, this guy would worth a shot with a second rounder. Another guy that is somewhat similar, maybe not refined is Joey Dorsey of Memphis. A lot of people have him compared to Ben Wallace.
January 9th, 2008 at 3:42 pm
Crow, it would be nice to see Durant play at different positions at least occasionally. obviously, you wouldn’t want him playing all the time at the 4, but he could create some serious match-up problems for other teams to try and defend. I could see Durant spacing the floor with his shooting the same way Dirk does in Dallas. Also, if Durant can take shooting guards off the dribble you have to think he would have a speed advantage over most power forwards in this league. At this point the Sonics are getting so little offensive production from their front-court that the only way I see to remedy that is to use Green and Durant more at the 4. The Sonics have players like Wally and Gelebale that can fill minutes at the 2/3.
January 9th, 2008 at 3:43 pm
I read that Boston report about the 15,000 makr for NO also. Sounds a little far fetched but I do know that the organization is fed up with attendance these days. Here’s hoping that the hornets go to oklahoma and everyone gets their wish (except for 11,000 left in the the big easy).
January 9th, 2008 at 3:44 pm
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=3188346
This absolutely sets the table for things to get very interesting IMO. If the lease is enforced through 2010 and there is a chance that the Hornets are cut loose after 2009 then there is reasonable expectation that Clay could loose out on the OKC market by being a year to late. Alternatively the league/Clay/Seattle could save themselves a hell of a lot of face by dropping the legal dispute and simply assuring that one way or another this city will have a team in 2010. If New Orleans hits its benchmarks(unfortunately for them that is very unlikely) then things are settled through expansion. If not then New Orleans goes to OKC with Clay getting the New Orleans owners shares and we get our Sonics back.
I’m going to make a bet that unreported in this “lease renegotiating” is the fact that Louisiana got themselves out of some of the guaranteed ticket repayment they owed the teams this year in exchange for the early opt out. I’d gotten a report that they were going to have to pay $14 million to the Hornets and were expected to default on that. They also got out of building a new practice facility and let me tell you, the fact that they held that is a strong indicator that they don’t expect things to work out.
I don’t believe in cooincidence. Combine this with the Storm news timing and I think it is fair to say that things are starting to shake loose a little bit.
Everybody is at risk if this thing drags into 2010 with no resolution. One worry was that the New Orleans 2012 lease would be an obstacle that could prevent any negotiation of a franchise swap. Now that is suddenly getting more realistic.
January 9th, 2008 at 3:47 pm
Thanks for the viewpoint Shawn.
Eli I don’t think they’d go to Westhead. Unclear how much of offense is his and how much is PJ’s but if what they are doing now isn’t working his coaching would appear to me to a substantial part of the problem.
Now how well it works with Ridnour still largely remains to be seen. Maybe the design will work better. But that would be near last test in my mind. Either they’d have to get the right PG to lead it or significantly alter or drop the system that is in 29th place on efficiency.
January 9th, 2008 at 3:54 pm
Eli I am definitely for trying Durant fully at SF for a long string of games this season. If not right now by March/April. They need to compare and during this experimental season to try to get the plan for next reason together and realistic with the other slots filled appropriately after Durant settles into whatever his next season position is.
I can see him potentially moving up to at least part time PF eventually. My guess would be in year 3 or later.
January 9th, 2008 at 3:57 pm
Crow, I just wonder if they PJ is really dedicated to using Westhead’s offensive system. At the beginning of the year they seemed to be playing more uptempo and as of late they are playing more in the half-court. I don’t at all believe PJ is using lineups that will have success running the ball. He tends to favor a more traditional big lineup that doesn’t necessarily have the speed to get out on the break.
January 9th, 2008 at 3:59 pm
this may be off topic but this is BREAKING NEWS
clay bennet has sold the storm to local ownership
wow did not see this coming
http://www.king5.com/topstories/stories/NW_010808SPB_seattle_storm_sold_TP.1aa9e94.html
January 9th, 2008 at 4:00 pm
ajw thanks for the player mentions. I’ll look for White.
January 9th, 2008 at 4:00 pm
My mistake…. Crow, I just wonder if they PJ…. Crow, I just wonder if PJ is really dedicated to using Westhead’s offensive system.
January 9th, 2008 at 4:02 pm
Eli Says:
January 9th, 2008 at 3:42 pm
“Also, if Durant can take shooting guards off the dribble you have to think he would have a speed advantage over most power forwards in this league. At this point the Sonics are getting so little offensive production from their front-court that the only way I see to remedy that is to use Green and Durant more at the 4.”
I like this theory, but I see PJ using Green more at the 4 than Durant. Down the line though, hopefully Durant will play the 4 exclusively and develop that post game so we can focus on getting an elite wing player/pg. Dallas experimented with this transition and it has worked. I’m wondering what direction PJ is taking though.
January 9th, 2008 at 4:02 pm
this may be off topic but this is BREAKING NEWS
clay bennet has sold the storm to local ownership
Only a day late……
January 9th, 2008 at 4:06 pm
Woops, “I’m wondering what direction PJ is taking though” should end with “as far as our offensive philosophy goes.”
January 9th, 2008 at 4:06 pm
this may be off topic but this is BREAKING NEWS
clay bennet has sold the storm to local ownership
Only a day late……
…..or make that two.
January 9th, 2008 at 4:07 pm
As second rounder for PF depth might be alright.
A guy his size wouldn’t be my top preferred PF type right now but as you say somebody might get moved out. If Wilcox left and Green became primary PF, a guy like White could be part of the backup. I’ll be interested in his wingspan / standing vertical reach at draft camp (of course). If he is long and /or a leaper I wouldn’t rule him out for being a bit short but it is still a negative.
January 9th, 2008 at 4:08 pm
“Eli I am definitely for trying Durant fully at SF for a long string of games this season. If not right now by March/April. They need to compare and during this experimental season to try to get the plan for next reason together and realistic with the other slots filled appropriately after Durant settles into whatever his next season position is.”
In the grand scheme of things is there really that much of a difference between SF and SG? I don’t think there is. Its still a wing position in most offenses.
January 9th, 2008 at 4:11 pm
If Durant plays more at the 3 that allows them to move Green to the 4. I like what I saw for the most part from Green at that position. He showed an ability to take opposing players off the dribble, as well as a decent low-post game. If he can develop into a good shooter it would make him that much more effective. The Sonics really could use a big that can be a threat from the three-point line and create some spacing on the floor. They haven’t had a player that can do that since Radmanovich.
January 9th, 2008 at 4:13 pm
If I were PJ, and I were looking down the Sonics bench to decide on starters, I’d be so depressed.
I’d be saying, “Let’s see, I’ve got a couple guys who have underachieved and appear to be slight headcases who aren’t sure whether or not they want to play. I’ve got a couple more who would be decent role players on any team. I’ve got an injured center who may or may not ever actually play. I’ve got a couple of foreign guys who the old management picked up in an attempt to get a little lucky. I’ve got some guy’s kid who thinks he’s as good as his uncle, but he’s not even as good as his Dad- Oh, he has to forget that it’s a contract year. My best player is 19, and he’s looking banged up. That leaves me with a rookie PF. ”
I’m not sure I got everyone. It’s just that it doesn’t matter who PJ starts or doesn’t start. This roster would have been beaten by any number of Clippers’ squads from their bad days.
January 9th, 2008 at 4:14 pm
“A guy his size wouldn’t be my top preferred PF type right now but as you say somebody might get moved out. If Wilcox left and Green became primary PF, a guy like White could be part of the backup. ”
True, but I just think if Green or Durant are the PF of the future, White would be a nice compliment/change off the bench to both of their finesse games with his rugged style of play.
January 9th, 2008 at 4:15 pm
“If Durant plays more at the 3 that allows them to move Green to the 4.”
How so? I’d say its more dependent on who is playing the 4…….I don’t think where Durant plays matters that much. If Durant continues to run at the 2………doesn’t that also allow them to play Green at the 3 or 4.
January 9th, 2008 at 4:20 pm
I probably should have posted this in the Cavs thread, but can someone explain why the hardwood floor in Cleveland is narrower than most? It was only once Jeff Green twisted his ankle going for a loose ball by stepping off the playing surface did I notice that the players chairs weren’t on the court surface but rather on the subfloor, lower than the court itself. I wonder how many other teams courts are designed like this?
Brian, I posted a bit of how I see things with the Hornets lease announcement, but do you have any thoughts on why the number of years were extended to the end of the 2014 season? Is that the price Shinn had to pay in order to get his attendance figures option for the opt out clause? Perhaps the 2 year extention is nothing more than window dressing to make it appear like something positive.
And that’s a good catch on noticing the provision of the city not having to build a practice facility. I think you’re correct in assuming that if they were optimistic for the long term it wouldn’t have come into play.
January 9th, 2008 at 4:21 pm
The nice thing about having guys like Green and Durant is their ability to play multiple position. I think in the future we will see both guys used interchangeably between small forward and power forward. If they develop to their full potential they have a chance to become an absolute match-up nightmare for other teams. Let’s just hope PJ finds a way to think a little outside the box in order to utilize their talents.
January 9th, 2008 at 4:30 pm
Watching Green play - he does not look tall enough to play PF. His rebounding #’s do not suggest he is a good enough rebounder to play PF. If he can guard SF, that is where i would play him - and on offense i would post him up if the use a Sf to guard him. He also needs to learn to shoot - i suspect he is working on it.
It amazes me the deference given to Green over someone like Gelabale. For a rookie, Gelable did pretty darn well - at least as good as Green is doing now. His biggest weakness is his unselfishness - he does not look to shoot that much. Although, one thing seems pretty clear, he has worked on his 3 pt shot. If PJ continues to let him rot on the bench - it would be interesting to see him let loose to play for Phoenix or even Cleveland could use him.
January 9th, 2008 at 4:32 pm
The Sonics really could use a big that can be a threat from the three-point line and create some spacing on the floor
They really don’t need Green to be able to hit the 3 (though that would be a bonus), what they really need him to do is develop that 15-18 foot jumper so he can hit that consistently (like David West) and continue to work on his post up game, so he can take advantage of the mis-match depending on what type of player the opposing team has matched up on him.
The NBA is all about recognizing and taking advantage of mis-matches. If Green develops that 15-18 foot J and the opposing team has a slower, low post banger type of #4 guarding him, then he takes the guy out away from the bucket and squares him up (either hitting the jump shot or putting it on the floor and going by the slower player). If they opposing team has a smaller quicker #4 guarding him, then he takes him down on the block and goes to work.
The key to Green’s success in this league will be his development of that mid-range jump shot, IMO.
January 9th, 2008 at 4:32 pm
Menace, You’re right that Green can play at the 4 no matter if Durant plays at the 2, or 3.
January 9th, 2008 at 4:38 pm
Check this guy out, 7′8 360 lbs!!!
http://www.nbadraft.net/admincp/profiles/kennygeorge.html
January 9th, 2008 at 4:38 pm
DK, I saw the same thing and was cursing to the T.V. “THAT IS THE DUMBEST THING I HAVE EVER SEEN IN MY LIFE”
Snapper Jones tried to explain the design behind it but I wasn’t paying attention.
seriously, that drop is setting up a career ending injury for someone.
you might as well put sharp spikes around the court.
January 9th, 2008 at 4:40 pm
McCoy, I noticed during a timeout when Green was standing next to Kurt Thomas that both were the same height. And Thomas had had a long career not only as a power forward but also playing center.
I think Green has the size to play power forward. Has he got the game to bang away and use leverage and savvy against other power forwards is the question? But another question is does he have the footspeed and quickness to play small forward? If the answer is unclear on either question then Green is a classic tweener who can play at both positions some but probably won’t dominate at either.
January 9th, 2008 at 4:45 pm
7′8 360pounds???
seriously what did this kid eat when he was young.
If basketball is being played half-court, he will dominate. Too bad it is played full-court.
January 9th, 2008 at 4:46 pm
McCoy, I noticed during a timeout when Green was standing next to Kurt Thomas that both were the same height.
The other item Green has going for him, is if you look at him, he’s got pretty long arms. I’m not talking KD long arms, but they are longer than normal.
January 9th, 2008 at 4:47 pm
7′8 360pounds???
seriously what did this kid eat when he was young.
The other kids.
January 9th, 2008 at 4:49 pm
Frozenropers, Green extending his range to the three-point line would be nice, but you’re right in saying it’s not really necessary. I would be more than happy if he develops a consistent mid-range jump-shot.
My main reason wanting to play Green and to a lesser extent Durant at the 4 is to get some scoring from that position. It allows you to get a player like Gelebale into the rotation and use a lineup that doesn’t have two non scorers at the 4/5. I like both Collison and Thomas, but I don’t particularly think it’s a great combination. Throw Petro into the equation and you’re really hurting. I prefer always having at least one scoring threat coming from the 4, or 5 position. Going to a smaller lineup, or in the Sonic’s case a quicker lineup might remedy some of the offensive problems coming from our front-court. It also would allow Gelebale and Wally Z to get more minutes.
January 9th, 2008 at 4:50 pm
Your point is a fair and good one Eli. I don’t know how committed PJ is to Westhead system running. It does appear that they went with it full bore the first set of games to an 0-8 start and they did pull back somewhat from it and maybe even moreso after inserting Thomas. But they haven’t said they pulled back from it. They still complain when West and Watson don’t succeed doing it. But how much fault they deserve for failing to run it and how realistic Westhead/PJ expectations/ demands are with this cast to run it a lot or all the time I don’t know.
The results we see are for a mix of the design and the departure from it. The results are bad but is it the design or the departure or both that is bad? You can comment from seeing the game and/or try to use stats. I think both parts of the offense we see are fairly bad but don’t know for sure off hand which is worse and which the team should move more toward.
I am not against running, it can payoff better, but am skeptical when emphasis on running has failed here to met goals here in the past and didnt seem to work well enough earlier this year either.
It will always be a blend of running and halfcourt. Our halfcourt isnt great and I can why they don’t want to rely on it but they have to fix it too.
If they want to play fast next season and beyond they have to cut turnovers and show better decisionmaking / get better shots. I am not sure if Durant & Green as SG and SF are especially talented at running compared to typical starting NBA wings. Both at SF one at a time or as SF & PF maybe their ballhandling etc. would look more favorable in comparison to average or average for teams who emphasize running.
January 9th, 2008 at 4:50 pm
“It amazes me the deference given to Green over someone like Gelabale. For a rookie, Gelable did pretty darn well - at least as good as Green is doing now. His biggest weakness is his unselfishness - he does not look to shoot that much. Although, one thing seems pretty clear, he has worked on his 3 pt shot. If PJ continues to let him rot on the bench - it would be interesting to see him let loose to play for Phoenix or even Cleveland could use him.”
Gelabale isn’t bad. But you hit the nail on the head…..he isn’t aggressive on the offensive end. With that said……..it puts him into a role player role. He doesn’t hurt us on the floor…..but does he bring that much to the table? I don’t think he does……I don’t think he makes us better……otherwise he’d be out there.
Either way he is probably gone at the end of this year. Look at our personell……he just doesn’t have a spot/future with this team.
January 9th, 2008 at 4:51 pm
Green’s rebounding rate is way below the average for a PF or F. He is a good rebounding SF, but a bad rebounding PF. (both of these are per Knickerblogger stats page) That was his weakness at Georgetown also, so I am skeptical that he will get much better. I would not want a below average rebounder at PF.
January 9th, 2008 at 4:57 pm
“They really don’t need Green to be able to hit the 3 (though that would be a bonus), what they really need him to do is develop that 15-18 foot jumper so he can hit that consistently (like David West) and continue to work on his post up game, so he can take advantage of the mis-match depending on what type of player the opposing team has matched up on him.”
Yes, yes, yes … great post.
Don’t necessarily need a big with 3 pt range IMO. Durant may be that guy eventually… in the meantime I’d look for bigs that can help interior D. I’ve seen enough of the soft jumpshooting big.
January 9th, 2008 at 4:58 pm
I am not a fan of the mid-range jumper. With the advent of the 3 point shot it is the least efficient shot in the game. I would actually rather have Collison take a few steps back and start launching 3’s than continually clang 15ft jumpers. At least if it happens to go in it is worth more. All that is my way of saying Green should work on the 3, not the 17ft jumper.
January 9th, 2008 at 5:00 pm
Check this guy out, 7′8 360 lbs!!!
http://www.nbadraft.net/admincp/profiles/kennygeorge.html
- Good god…I enjoyed seeing the little guys around him trying to defend. It really does show that all that talk about how if you were just x”s higher you’d be an NBA player….something definately gets lost in translation as you get taller.
January 9th, 2008 at 5:02 pm
Frozenropers I also agree with you that Green hitting from 15-18 feet is key / comes first.
If he developed 3 pt range later great. Right now I think they may need to get that from somebody else. Maybe from the draft. Ryan Anderson is one possibility.
January 9th, 2008 at 5:09 pm
The mid range jumper is a lost art IMO.
Green’s jumper will get better with time. Its not like his form is bad or anything. GP couldn’t shoot when he first entered the L. Lots of players need time to learn to shoot in the NBA.
January 9th, 2008 at 5:09 pm
“I am not a fan of the mid-range jumper. With the advent of the 3 point shot it is the least efficient shot in the game. I would actually rather have Collison take a few steps back and start launching 3’s than continually clang 15ft jumpers. At least if it happens to go in it is worth more. All that is my way of saying Green should work on the 3, not the 17ft jumper. ”
To me it’s more about being able to consistently make the shot the defense gives you … if they’re leaving you open for 15 fters and you can make them, then the defense has to guard you a different way, creating space and opportunity for other guys.
Remember that every 3 pter Nick takes puts him at least 22+ ft from the basket and entirely out of position to hit the offensive glass. What is Nick Collison’s strength as a player?
Strategically you’re giving the defense more chances at possessions because you’re trading rebounding for 1 more point per 3 pt attempt. Against highly efficient offensive teams I think that would hinder more than help.
January 9th, 2008 at 5:09 pm
Somebody needs to take and make a good number of 3s. It doesnt have to be Green (or Collison or Petro). If they can get enough 3s from PG-SF then you don’t “need” the PF in on the act. But if they can do it, without sacrificing rebounding or willingness to play inside, it would be a plus, an even greater dual threat that a big who can hit from 15-18 feet and would further open the lane for drives.
The draftexpress writeup on Anderson is pretty positive with regard to shooting and playing inside but full disclosure I havent seen him.
January 9th, 2008 at 5:12 pm
We don’t have real great 3 point shooters. So I don’t think we need to take a good number of them. Thats a really bad idea IMO.
January 9th, 2008 at 5:13 pm
I agree taking Collison away from the basket is a bad idea, but so long as they are having him hoist up 15fters, they might as well be 3’s - because either way he is not getting the rebound. Collison should camp around the paint waiting for an offensive rebound, that is what his game should be. That is what he is good at. That said, I mostly brought it up as a counter to the mid-range suggestions for Green. I am not a fan of those.
January 9th, 2008 at 5:15 pm
One thing that would worry me if Green extended his range, is if he fell in love with the 3 and the rest of his game deteriorated. If he was a shotblocking and rebounding presence that took and made 3’s (ie Rasheed Wallace), maybe that would be tolerable. But if he turned into Antoine Walker, then the rest of his talents go to waste.
January 9th, 2008 at 5:18 pm
If you have a PF who can hit the 3 you do usually pull the opponent PF far from basket too. If your center can win the rebound war 1-1 that might be a favorable situation. 1 on 1 might be better odds for offensive rebounds than 2 on 2 or 3 on 3 for boards. (Long rebounds might be easier for offense to get if your guys can do that and cover the backcourt adequately.) Collison 1 on 1 for boards and a PF (somebody else) taking the 3 might work . Wilcox 1 on 1 with virtually sole responsibility for rebounding would make me nervous. I don’t think he gets rebounds much that require moving to the ball. He is more of a vertical rebounder while Nick will move and bang and scrap a bit more. Thomas would be fine as a solo rebounder. Petro no, Swift have to see the new him, Sene I don’t know either.
January 9th, 2008 at 5:19 pm
Baby steps. All players should focus on hitting the 2 consistently before even thinking about the 3.
January 9th, 2008 at 5:24 pm
The Spurs and Piston are both teams that used the three-point shooting of one of their bigs as a huge weapon. Robert Horry for the Spurs and Wallace for the Pistons. Green has many other potential skill than just shooting the ball, but being able to go inside or outside makes you that much more difficult to defend and prepare for.
January 9th, 2008 at 5:28 pm
I think about a guy like Bruce Bowen - who has generally been a good 3 point shooter but a bad 2 point shooter. Complete guess here, but I’m thinking he practiced the 3 almost excusively to get a strong feel for making the shot. If all you need to work on is 1 range (e.g. the 3 point shot) you may have better success at making it. Unless you are a pure shooter like Ray, getting the right range from all distances is probably pretty difficult. So, might as well get the 3 point shot down, and then maybe work inwards. That is how I think about it anyway. I like to think of different ways to go about things though. I really don’t like going “by the book” because the book usually doesn’t have any empirical evidence to support it.
January 9th, 2008 at 5:40 pm
I think about a guy like Bruce Bowen -
You are talking about a guy who makes a living in the NBA as a role player who does two things well…………defends on the perimeter and shoots the three. It can also be argued just how well he does the first.
Personally, I’d want our starting PF to have a little better all around game. To be able to score both inside and outside, defend in the paint and rebound.
January 9th, 2008 at 5:42 pm
Why does Watson continue to think he’s the first option on offense?
January 9th, 2008 at 5:43 pm
Frozenropers said: “Beantown, you still got any of those Australian contacts? What is the word on that monster, Nathan Jawai (PF)?”
Nah, that would be me, living here and all.
Jawai is basically a write-in for the Australian league Rookie of the Year. At the start of the season, no-one knew anything about him - he was just some rookie that his team had picked up from somewhere or other.
We’re now about halfway through the season down here, and he’s averaging 18pts/10reb, and is in the league’s top 10 in just about every scoring and rebounding category. Even outduelled league MVP Chris Anstey (who used to play for the Bulls).
That said, it is very rare for an Aussie to make it to the NBA via the Australian league. Bogut, Longley and just about every other Aussie that matters came through the American college system instead (i.e. finish high school in Australia, get scholarship, Aussie league never even sees you play).
This kid’s worth a shot, though. If he’s hanging with Anstey already (who had a few seasons with the Bulls), he’s worth a look.
January 9th, 2008 at 5:47 pm
Wow Green is looking great tonight.
The offence should go through his hands more often.
January 9th, 2008 at 5:48 pm
I really don’t like going “by the book” because the book usually doesn’t have any empirical evidence to support it.
I don’t think I agree with that. Two of the most successful teams in the NBA in the recent era (Detroit and San Antonio) are IMO very by the book orientated organizations. While not everything they do is conventional, they obviously stick to some very traditional “by the book” philosophies.
Every now and then a Don Nelson comes around who does things way outside and box and has some success, however I highly doubt the vast majority of “empirical evidence” out there supports the outside the box methods more so than tranditional philosophies.
January 9th, 2008 at 5:51 pm
Watchin Watson hoist up jumpers early in the shot clock is like looking at unflushed diahrrea at a public restroom.
January 9th, 2008 at 5:54 pm
lmao every game is so predictable!!!
January 9th, 2008 at 5:55 pm
I’m pretty sure the Spurs lead the league in 3 point shots per game, or close to it.
January 9th, 2008 at 5:56 pm
why is wilkens in so early? airball on a layup for his first shot, just like yesterday. SOOO BAD
January 9th, 2008 at 5:56 pm
KD with the sick 2 handed double pump over Boone
January 9th, 2008 at 5:57 pm
Wow nice move in midair by Durant on that dunk.
January 9th, 2008 at 5:57 pm
McCoy let it go . stick to the game
lol some ppl are too funny
January 9th, 2008 at 6:00 pm
I’m pretty sure the Spurs lead the league in 3 point shots per game, or close to it.
Shooting a 3 pt shot is not “outside the box” thinking. Neither is structuring a team to have a dominant inside presence complimented by good outside shooters. That is very “inside the box” thinking, especially since the introduction of the 3 pt line.
January 9th, 2008 at 6:00 pm
Longterm I would prefer a PG who could take and make a good quantity of 3 ptrs, more and more reliably than we’ve seen in recent years. A tall F in the overall big mix who could chip in a couple in 10-25 minutes a night might be nice but having a strong 3 pt shooting PG is more important.
McCoy’s comment about heavy practice of a shot paying off iin games is true for Bowen. Bowen is reportedly a constant gym rat working on his 3. The 3 makes sense for him, a bailout opition guy, not relied on to rebound.
January 9th, 2008 at 6:05 pm
stick to the game ppl. you guys are like children
January 9th, 2008 at 6:05 pm
Something bad happens every time Damien touches the ball.
January 9th, 2008 at 6:06 pm
Wilkins is terrible. I hate this guy
January 9th, 2008 at 6:07 pm
Kidd for a triple double at half?
January 9th, 2008 at 6:09 pm
Nah, that would be me, living here and all.
Thanks for the run down MartinH.
January 9th, 2008 at 6:11 pm
Another lay-up attempt by wilkens that air-balled. That’s 3 of them in the last 2 games. If that doesn’t yell he sucks I don’t know what will.
January 9th, 2008 at 6:13 pm
im on wilkens..
wait finally hits a shot
January 9th, 2008 at 6:13 pm
VC is torching Wilkins on the defensive end as well. Didn’t this guy used to be a good defender?
January 9th, 2008 at 6:15 pm
BUT… this guy has had 3 layups as Z4ec has just stated in his last two games and has airballed all three! surely this must be a record.
this guy has lost all confidence and should be playing behind gelebale now.
his ‘defense’ on carter in the last couple of mins has resulted in an uncontested dunk and uncontested lay up.
he’s playing neither end of the floor
January 9th, 2008 at 6:25 pm
WTF why isn’t Green credited with a block? I swear I did see him block somene’s dunk-attempt. Am I wrong?
Or did the scorekeeper mistaken him for Petro (since they look so similar on the court) and give the blockshot to Petro?
January 9th, 2008 at 6:28 pm
Wow Petro is actually playing decent basketball right now, showing good court awareness, making a nice pass that led to a dunk and 1 by Durant, and knocking down those 18 footers.
January 9th, 2008 at 6:29 pm
Wow. Petro can catch ally oops and dunk them??
January 9th, 2008 at 6:29 pm
petro on fire!
January 9th, 2008 at 6:31 pm
All the horrible passing is making me crazy. You’d think they would develop more chemistry than that this far into the season.
January 9th, 2008 at 6:32 pm
I still think Petro would be a decent fit in Phnx. He can score at times , and is not afraid to take a shot(and a quick one at that). He wouldn’t reallly need to understand the game as much in their system either, just run, and shoot. He can do that I think…
January 9th, 2008 at 6:35 pm
good D by wilkens that time on Jefferson. that’s more like it
January 9th, 2008 at 6:44 pm
Phnx needs another big too. Salary wise a deal of Petro/Wilcox for Diaw/Piatkowski works, and also Rid/Petro/Wilcox for Diaw/Banks/Piatkowski also seems to work, one problem is that Rid, and Diaw are BYC players. Piatkowski expires at the end of this season, but I doubt it would ever happen anyway…
January 9th, 2008 at 6:45 pm
“I’m pretty sure the Spurs lead the league in 3 point shots per game, or close to it.”
McCoy, you are one of the few people on this blog who recognize that the three-pointer is essential to competing in the offense-happy Western Conference. Baby steps are fine but this team will remain a baby for quite some time if it cannot find players that can hit the long-ball (unless the franchise moves to the Eastern Conference).
Spurs are #6 in three point shots attempted per game, #5 in three pointers hit per game, and #2 in percentage. I don’t think any of the reasonable thinkers on this blog would dispute the argument that the Spurs are a three-point shooting team. San Antonio even shot more threes per game than the number shot per game by the Phoenix Suns during last year’s playoffs.
January 9th, 2008 at 6:52 pm
3 is how Brent Barry stays alive in the NBA
January 9th, 2008 at 6:52 pm
The mid-range jumpshot is a lost art. Dallas, however, has built their entire team around the mid-range jump shot. They are only one of two teams that score over 100 points a game that shoot fewer than seventeen threes a game. Utah is the other team but they aren’t a team built around the mid-range jumpshot. Dallas was built to beat San Antonio and did so on San Antonio’s homecourt in 2006. Perhaps San Antonio’s increasing focus on the three-pointer these past two seasons was designed to reclaim the advantage against Dallas.
January 9th, 2008 at 6:53 pm
U really notice the importance of 3s’ in pickup games. Usually people play ones, and twos’ instead of 2s’, and 3s’. That’s a 2 to 1 ratio, so obviously less possesions are needed to win a game if u can hit that shot at a reasonable rate. In the NBA it’s a 1 1/2 to 1 ratio, which is still considerable. Especially for guys(and teams) with a good percentage…
January 9th, 2008 at 6:59 pm
Jeff Green will only have to develop three-point range if he’s the Sonics long term SF. If he’s their long-term PF, there may be no need to really use that shot. Since comparing Green to David West appears to be flavor of the month, it should be noted that West has shot just fifteen threes this season and only fifty-eight over his career. The NBA three is no easy thing to master for a guy who wasn’t really that good of a three point shooter from the college three point line.
January 9th, 2008 at 7:00 pm
Uh-oh. Wilkens back on the court.
January 9th, 2008 at 7:11 pm
Jason Kidd makes mediocre players look like offensive genius’ sometimes. It’s amazing what a pg like him does for an offense.
January 9th, 2008 at 7:14 pm
Alex Chan said: “McCoy, you are one of the few people on this blog who recognize that the three-pointer is essential to competing in the offense-happy Western Conference. Baby steps are fine but this team will remain a baby for quite some time if it cannot find players that can hit the long-ball (unless the franchise moves to the Eastern Conference).
Spurs are #6 in three point shots attempted per game, #5 in three pointers hit per game, and #2 in percentage. I don’t think any of the reasonable thinkers on this blog would dispute the argument that the Spurs are a three-point shooting team. San Antonio even shot more threes per game than the number shot per game by the Phoenix Suns during last year’s playoffs.”
Of course, you realise that absolutely none of this is worth jack if said team doesn’t work for their shots.
The reason the Spurs shoot and hit so many threes is because of their ball movement. We could easily put up the same number of attempts as the Spurs, but I’d lay money that our percentage would be nowhere near theirs.
That’s not necessarily because we are worse trey shooters. It’s because we’re entrusting the ball movement to Watson and Wilkens, who probably wouldn’t know what it was if it climbed into bed with them at the hotel tonight.
January 9th, 2008 at 7:17 pm
3 straight blowout losses?? where’s the pride?
January 9th, 2008 at 7:20 pm
On the last two possessions of the third quarter, Kevin Durant has shown his sloppy ball-handling and quick trigger finger. Furthermore, Richard Jefferson has had an outstanding game for the New Jersey Nets; it’s frequently been at the expense of Durant’s abysmal defense.
Nick Collison has looked great tonight, though.
January 9th, 2008 at 7:20 pm
wilkens is playing much better tonite, but still isnt up to standard in myh opinion
January 9th, 2008 at 7:23 pm
“Of course, you realise that absolutely none of this is worth jack if said team doesn’t work for their shots.
The reason the Spurs shoot and hit so many threes is because of their ball movement. We could easily put up the same number of attempts as the Spurs, but I’d lay money that our percentage would be nowhere near theirs.
That’s not necessarily because we are worse trey shooters. It’s because we’re entrusting the ball movement to Watson and Wilkens, who probably wouldn’t know what it was if it climbed into bed with them at the hotel tonight.”
While San Antonio’s ball movement is pretty good (top ten in assists per game), you are discounting the fact that the Spurs have some shooters that can hit threes with no ball movement (Ginobili, Barry, and Finley). The Sonics could have all the movement they want and they wouldn’t be able to shoot as well as San Antonio does from the three-point line. The Supes simply lack the personnel to hit the three. Only Durant, Wally, and West are somewhat competent three-point shooters..
January 9th, 2008 at 7:23 pm
Going off the play and stats from the last three games (including this one), out of all the players that featured in them, Durant, Green, Thomas and Collison have looked like the only ones worth keeping.
Discuss.
January 9th, 2008 at 7:23 pm
Wilkens made a couple of shots from the perimeter and seems to have regained his confidence, which is bad for the team because he has just started shammonding again in the last 3 STRAIGHT possessions.
January 9th, 2008 at 7:24 pm
Alex Chan said: “While San Antonio’s ball movement is pretty good (top ten in assists per game), you are discounting the fact that the Spurs have some shooters that can hit threes with no ball movement (Ginobili, Barry, and Finley).”
That is true, yes, but my argument is that their percentage of makes would be nowhere near what it would otherwise be if they didn’t get so many open ones in the first place.
January 9th, 2008 at 7:25 pm
“Richard Jefferson has had an outstanding game for the New Jersey Nets; it’s frequently been at the expense of Durant’s abysmal defense.”
For the most part, Durant’s been on Carter but its great that you can find every negative thing in KD’s game.
January 9th, 2008 at 7:25 pm
AK, go fuck yourself
January 9th, 2008 at 7:26 pm
MartinH is on target- you want open 3s gained from ball movement, post presence, picks… or perhaps off fastbreaks but I’d prefer feet to be set and the shot sized up in rhythm over the quick fling.
January 9th, 2008 at 7:29 pm
“Alex Chan said: “McCoy, you are one of the few people on this blog who recognize that the three-pointer is essential to competing in the offense-happy Western Conference. Baby steps are fine but this team will remain a baby for quite some time if it cannot find players that can hit the long-ball (unless the franchise moves to the Eastern Conference).”
OK so anyone correct me if I’m wrong, but didn’t we have two guys here who hit 3 balls with reckless abandon the past few years? It’s not as simple as leading the conference in 3s attempted. Been there, seen that. San Antonio takes and makes a lot of 3s because their offense is designed to get good looks and not coincidentally they have guys who create space on the floor and are willing to pass.
Having a big to space the floor and keep the defense honest also helps.
January 9th, 2008 at 7:30 pm
Martin H., Dallas is a team that has won over 120 games the last two seasons despite being a team that doesn’t rely very much on ball movement. They were able to get to the Finals and win so many games because they always seem to have four guys who can go one-on-one, can create their own shot, and can hit the mid-range jump shot on the court at the same time. This year, Dallas has been better with their ball movement as Dirk is the #1 assists man among PFs and Cs in the Western Conference. We’ll see if Dallas’s greater emphasis on ball movement nets them better results than their last two postseasons.
January 9th, 2008 at 7:33 pm
Regarding Jeff Green and David West, there’s a huge difference in their standing reaches — with Green’s being 8′7″ and West’s being 9′0.5″ — so that must be taken into account.
Due to Green’s dinosaur arms, the guy is at a huge disadvantage when guarding fellow power forwards — against whom he gives up an 18.0 PER and a 49.7% eFG% — conversely, the overrated rookie can more than hold his own versus small forwards.
On offense, however, Green is utterly useless as a cornerman — for his three-point range is non-existent and, moreover, he sucks at creating shot opportunities for himself along the baseline — yet, he produces at an average clip when stationed at the elbow along the high-post.
All things considered, Green is nothing more than a tweener — which will haunt him throughout his career — who’d be best utilized as a combo forward off of the bench for roughly 16 minutes per game. Indeed, he’s just a role player.
January 9th, 2008 at 7:34 pm
“OK so anyone correct me if I’m wrong, but didn’t we have two guys here who hit 3 balls with reckless abandon the past few years? It’s not as simple as leading the conference in 3s attempted. Been there, seen that. San Antonio takes and makes a lot of 3s because their offense is designed to get good looks and not coincidentally they have guys who create space on the floor and are willing to pass.”
Steve, what you just posted is common sense. Of course, the three-pointer isn’t the only weapon this team needs. I believe it is an essential component to competing in a conference with so many strong offensive teams. The key word is essential, not sole. I don’t know how you went from “essential the three-pointer is” to inferring that I believe “all you need to do is chuck up threes.” Careful reading is an essential component to any electronic dialogue.
January 9th, 2008 at 7:35 pm
Damien Wilkins almost singlehandedly makes this team not fun to watch. Shammond, shammond, shammond, bad shot with time running out…
I haven’t seen a guy this overconfident in his own shaky offense since God Shammgod.
On another note, I like the little two man game they were running earlier with Durant and Petro. Petro was getting nice separation from his man and putting himself in a position for easy buckets.
January 9th, 2008 at 7:36 pm
No it’s not as simple as hitting the 3. SA plays defense, they have talent, and they’re disciplined. They have post play, and players who can penetrate and either finish, or kick it to the OPEN guy…
January 9th, 2008 at 7:37 pm
Alex, yep, I agree. You do need the talent there in the first place. They need to be able to get into the right positions, set the feet and be ready to go at the right times.
But my issue is that all the good shooters in the world still need the floor spaced and the ball moved. That is something I don’t think we have yet.
January 9th, 2008 at 7:38 pm
“For the most part, Durant’s been on Carter but its great that you can find every negative thing in KD’s game.” {Scott}
On defensive rotations Kevin Durant has switched off between Vince Carter, Richard Jefferson, and Bostjan Nachbar. Whether it’s a matter of man-to-man or team defense, Durant has been out-’n'-out abused by New Jersey Nets’ wing players all evening.
Durant’s horrid lateral quickness and weak body frame allow players to constantly cut away from him via screens and beat him off of the dribble. If y’all want to argue against the assertion that Durant’s hideous defense is a hindrance, then so be it. That’s your perogative.
January 9th, 2008 at 7:40 pm
If Petro ends up being our highest scorer in this game… I… don’t know what I’m going to do… maybe I’ll just cry prostrate in the bottom of the shower for a while or something.
You know your team sucks when Johan’s your top scorer, right? Right?
January 9th, 2008 at 7:41 pm
Agreed Alex, just seemed like an oversimplification. More 3s would be great, just saying there’s about three things that need fixing first in order to make that happen.
AK, you should write the sequel to My Pet Goat. You can call it My Pet Goat … Is Named Kevin Durant.
(Or My Pet Goat II: Electric Boogaloo, just because any sequel including the number 2 should be called Electric Boogaloo.)
January 9th, 2008 at 7:41 pm
So wait a minute. If we have better 3 point shooters and shoot more of them we will be a better team? How dynamic.
January 9th, 2008 at 7:42 pm
“AK, go fuck yourself”
I’m not much for sticking up for AK, but that’s a bit harsh, eh? It’s his opinion, and even if it’s poor at best, whatevs…
January 9th, 2008 at 7:43 pm
Jeff Green has been absolutely worthless during this East coast stretch. Oh yeah, he’ll make Sportscenter or Youtube with his block. Results matter, not highlights.
January 9th, 2008 at 7:45 pm
@alex chan
green is showing more promise than your mother on **** sucking night.
January 9th, 2008 at 7:45 pm
The reason the Spurs shoot and hit so many threes is because of their ball movement.
The reason the Spurs shoot and hit so many 3’s is because they have an All World PF named Tim Duncan who demands double teams. Duncan is also good enough to realize when to pass out of the double team, allowing them to rotate the ball for wide open 3 pt shots. Teams will shoot alot higher percentage from 3 pt land when shooting uncontested shots rather than contested shots all the time.
Jeff Green will only have to develop three-point range if he’s the Sonics long term SF. If he’s their long-term PF, there may be no need to really use that shot.
Bingo! That is the reason I believe Jeff Green needs to focus first on improving his 15-18 foot shot along with his post moves. I believe we are going to see him spending more time at PF than SF in the long run. If he happens to develop or improve on his 3 pt shooting at some time in the future AFTER he’s improved on his back to the basket and mid-range game, then that’s just icing on the cake.
January 9th, 2008 at 7:45 pm
IMO Wallys’ our only real 3 point shooter, & SA has Horry, Barry, Finley, and Ginobili who can hit, and hit big…
January 9th, 2008 at 7:47 pm
“Call me new jersey cuz I’m always in a new jersey
Type to go trade a foreign when the rims get to dirty
My drop is a damn dancer, topless like a lap dancer
Own the city and I care, so they call me “Care-Manter”
-Chamillionaire ”
Steve, I’m more impressed with your music variety by the day. Chamillionaire’s lyrics and style was siccc before he started making money and came with shit like Ridin Dirty….
January 9th, 2008 at 7:47 pm
If Petro ends up being our highest scorer in this game… I… don’t know what I’m going to do… maybe I’ll just cry prostrate in the bottom of the shower for a while or something.
So what happens if you find out Petro is gonna end up with a double-double with 22pts and 3 blocks? lol
Btw wilkens sux for taking that last shot with no man guarding him just to pat his stats. And you know what, he did it yesterday too. Shame on him.
January 9th, 2008 at 7:50 pm
Steve, out of respect for consistency, hasn’t Sam K. warranted the same place in perpetual moderation that AK eanred? Gmoney’s post was far too articulate for a response.
January 9th, 2008 at 7:50 pm
I guess the positive is that Durant played tonight not letting a dinged wheel stop him.
I worry a bit that this is the 3rd or 4th time one or both have rolled since summer league.
January 9th, 2008 at 7:51 pm
Man, you can tell the Celts really miss Ray, they’re about to lose to the Bobcats at home for gods sakes. I love that, Ray’s vital son!
Also, I’m sure glad we gave away those two second round picks for shit. I mean, really, a guy like Glen Davis wouldn’t have helped us at all. We’re just too deep…
January 9th, 2008 at 7:52 pm
“The reason the Spurs shoot and hit so many 3’s is because they have an All World PF named Tim Duncan who demands double teams. Duncan is also good enough to realize when to pass out of the double team, allowing them to rotate the ball for wide open 3 pt shots.”
exactly. We don’t have the shooters or the inside game……so I’m still confused as to why Alex continually says we need to shoot more 3s? Especially since we don’t have the player personel to be an effective 3pt shooting team.
Its like saying, the more money you have you can buy more things. So in order for us to buy more things we should try to get more money. Duh.
January 9th, 2008 at 7:52 pm
WHO ARE YOU, IMPOSTER, AND WHAT HAVE YOU DONE WITH THE REAL JOHAN PETRO?!!!
January 9th, 2008 at 7:53 pm
Jeff Green’s totals from the last three games: 7 for 24 from the field, one steal, one block (at least he’ll get on Sportscenter), nine turnovers, five assists, seven rebounds. Perhaps, the pressure of being a starter is getting to the youngster.
January 9th, 2008 at 7:56 pm
He’s a #5 pick so he better get over it. I like him, but sometimes wonder if he’s in the game mentally, or not…
January 9th, 2008 at 7:56 pm
“AK, go fuck yourself” {Sam K}
How about you explain Kevin Durant’s -19 on the night?
“Check this guy out, 7′8 360 lbs!!!” {ajw}
I mocked Kenny George in an earlier post.
“[W]hat about this Danilo Gallinari kid. Supposedly he’s the best prospect in Europe right now with comparisons to Dirk and Detlef Schrempf. Can he play shooting guard?” {ajw}
From reading Danilo Gallinari’s scouting report and watching a few highlight videos of him on YouTube, he’s nowhere near the level of Dirk Nowitzki and his game is more oriented toward slashing and dishing than Deltelf Schrempf’s was during his career. On the whole, Gallinari a hard player to quantify.
At any rate, though, I’d much rather focus on Chase Budinger than Gallinari. As a hybrid of Brent Barry, Dan Majerle, and Mike Miller, Budinger’s only flaws are on the defensive side of the ball. If Budinger can ever combine his innate athleticism and basketball IQ to make improvements on defense, then he’ll be a well-rounded swingman who’ll light it up in the NBA.
January 9th, 2008 at 7:57 pm
Jeff Green’s totals from the last three games: 7 for 24 from the field, one steal, one block (at least he’ll get on Sportscenter), nine turnovers, five assists, seven rebounds.
He’s definately going through some growing pains.
January 9th, 2008 at 8:02 pm
“Also, I’m sure glad we gave away those two second round picks for shit. I mean, really, a guy like Glen Davis wouldn’t have helped us at all. We’re just too deep…”
I like Big Baby and would have been down with him on our squad. But realistically who’s spot was he going to take to make this team? Who’s salary were we just going to eat?
January 9th, 2008 at 8:04 pm
“Steve, out of respect for consistency, hasn’t Sam K. warranted the same place in perpetual moderation that AK eanred? Gmoney’s post was far too articulate for a response.” {Alex Chan}
In an odd way, I don’t mind being the only guy who’s earned a spot in life-long moderation. It gives me a badass aura and adds to my mystique.
Anyway, the absurdity of Gmoney’s post made me laugh. It appears that the Seattle Supersonics’ shitty play is finally getting to everyone. Thankfully, however, I came into this season expecting the Supersoncis to be a 20-win ballclub.
Unlike most folks here, I’m neither a homer nor an eternal optimist; instead, I’m a realist.
January 9th, 2008 at 8:05 pm
do we lead the league in to’s?
January 9th, 2008 at 8:06 pm
Menace said: “I like Big Baby and would have been down with him on our squad. But realistically who’s spot was he going to take to make this team? Who’s salary were we just going to eat?”
Petro’s. His contract was expiring at season’s end anyway.
January 9th, 2008 at 8:07 pm
“do we lead the league in to’s? ”
Yes.
January 9th, 2008 at 8:08 pm
Gmoney Says:
@alex chan
green is showing more promise than your mother…
And you had the nerve to call others “children”?
January 9th, 2008 at 8:13 pm
I don’t think its realistic to believe that the Supes would just eat a million bucks to keep a second rounder.
January 9th, 2008 at 8:13 pm
The Sonics wouldn’t have had to eat any salary as there’s still a spot on the roster.
January 9th, 2008 at 8:15 pm
On the plus side, we passed Phoenix in points allowed per game tonight, and tied Indiana. Now tied for fourth worst in the league, after spending the first two months of the season fighting Golden State for the bottom.
January 9th, 2008 at 8:16 pm
“Petro’s. His contract was expiring at season’s end anyway.” {MartinH}
Sam Presti exercised the team options on both Johan Petro and Mouhamed Sene’s contracts, however.
“I like Big Baby and would have been down with him on our squad. But realistically who’s spot was he going to take to make this team? Who’s salary were we just going to eat?” {Menace}
Although I’d've moronically selected Josh McRoberts instead of Glen “Big Baby” Davis with the 35th pick in the 2007 NBA Draft, there was technically room on the roster at that moment to add another player. As it was, Sam Presti had yet to absorb Kurt Thomas’ $8,091,187 via the organization’s trade exception — which had yet to be obtained via the sign-and-trade deal involving Rashard Lewis — thus, someone such as Davis or McRoberts would’ve been a welcomed addition to the ballclub.
January 9th, 2008 at 8:17 pm
“[D]o we lead the league in to’s? Yes.”
Before tonight’s game, the Sonics were third worst in turnovers per game. Some people are going to want to pin the turnover problem on Earl or Damien, but I would offer that the primary culprits for the turnover problems are the boys from the Washington, D.C. metropolitan area: West, Durant, and Green.
January 9th, 2008 at 8:18 pm
Depends on whose salary they were eating. I’m sure there’s a few salaries here that don’t have much rope right now.
January 9th, 2008 at 8:19 pm
Davis wouldn’t have made one million this year. He is getting paid $427,163.
January 9th, 2008 at 8:21 pm
Alex…. many can share the credit for being a team that turns the ball over a ton.
As the team drifts and struggles and frankly - shows very little progress/improvement and to some degree it seems less passion along the way - I wonder if Presti will make any moves in Feb. - or just ride out a 60+ loss season.
January 9th, 2008 at 8:29 pm
Before tonight’s game, the Sonics were third worst in turnovers per game. Some people are going to want to pin the turnover problem on Earl or Damien, but I would offer that the primary culprits for the turnover problems are the boys from the Washington, D.C. metropolitan area: West, Durant, and Green.” {Alex Chan}
Hell, Kevin Durant (4.4 Turnovers Per 48 Minutes & 0.68 Assists Per Turnover) and Jeff Green (4.0 Turnovers Per 48 Minutes & .62 Assists Per Turnover) are the biggest culprits—there’s no ifs, ands, or buts about it!
January 9th, 2008 at 8:31 pm
Davis…Petro…what’s the difference? Either way, it’s not like these guys are gonna be much of a factor.
January 9th, 2008 at 8:33 pm
“In the month of December, Durant pulled down a total of seven offensive rebounds in 13 games. And those seven boards came in three games, meaning he had zero offensive rebounds in 10 games. For some perspective, consider that Heat rookie Daequan Cook, who is also a very poor rebounder (and five inches smaller, playing the same position), pulled down 11 offensive rebounds in December in significantly less game action.”
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/rookies/blogs?playerId=3202&season=2008&playerRankingType=1&period=1&set=0. AK, David Thorpe is stealing your schtick. You should have contacted a copyright attorney.
January 9th, 2008 at 8:33 pm
“Davis wouldn’t have made one million this year. He is getting paid $427,163.”
Salary isn’t the issue. Roster space is/was at the time.
“The Sonics wouldn’t have had to eat any salary as there’s still a spot on the roster.”
There is now. But going into the draft I believe it was a different story. But we also had to consider the idea of re-signing Rashard which took a spot. On draft day we took back Wally, Delonte, + Green (Draft pick) for Ray Allen + draft pick. Essentially thats 3 for one.
January 9th, 2008 at 8:35 pm
Despite the fact that they’re rookies, there’s no excuse for Kevin Durant and Jeff Green averaging 0.68 and 0.62 assists per turnover, respectively, as those are disgusting numbers.
I’d love to see someone attempt to convince me that I shouldn’t be worried about those totals. There are a lot of Durant apologists out there, however, so I wouldn’t put it past them to justify his horrible ball-handling and lack of sharing the rock.
January 9th, 2008 at 8:39 pm
Interesting discussion about 3 point shooting.
First, maybe some were tired of watching Sonics shoot lots of 3’s the past few years, but it resulted in excellent offense. I would think you’d be tired of watching lousy defense which was entirely what was lacking.
Second, if a team is not designed around shooting 3’s, it better be good at both fast break and half court offense with posting up and midrange shooting. Otherwise not enough points will be scored.
Third, the complete rebuild project pretty much means we are not watching a team built for anything except getting younger and unloading contracts. Not much better than watching paint dry until lottery time.
January 9th, 2008 at 8:40 pm
I just remember a lot of consolidation talk post draft. Plus historically 2nd rounders/FAs don’t make our squad very often. It would be even harder with two guaranteed first rounders coming in that year.
But courtsense has a great point. It wouldn’t matter that much anyway.
If anyone Gelabale would probably have got the axe.
but whatever…..dumb topic.
January 9th, 2008 at 8:46 pm
But we also had to consider the idea of re-signing Rashard which took a spot.
Counting Rashard, the Sonics were sitting at 14 after the draft. Lewis became Thomas, still 14.
but whatever…..dumb topic.
The Supes traded the very first pick of the second round to Houston for a future 2nd and cash. That’s what’s dumb. It’s also purely a cost-cutting move.
January 9th, 2008 at 8:46 pm
I like how our PGs, SGs, and SFs are constantly 2-3 steps late closing out on perimeter shots, especially 3-pointers.
Another favorite of mine is when the 2 PGs take 20-foot jump shots without a single pass, or with 17-18 seconds on the shot clock.
Oh, and I also love when certain players play 25 minutes one night, then 7 or 8 the next night. Or when some players get 10-15 shots one night, then a handful the next.
But my #1 favorite thing is watching 35+ games into the season and realizing that there are still no clearly-defined roles within which the players can get the most out of their (limited) talents.
Those are just a few of the things that make this team so damn much fun to watch.
January 9th, 2008 at 8:51 pm
But my #1 favorite thing is watching 35+ games into the season and realizing that there are still no clearly-defined roles within which the players can get the most out of their (limited) talents.
You can’t rush these evaluation processes.
January 9th, 2008 at 8:52 pm
courtsense, just prepare for 3-4 or more years of this. It ain’t getting prettier anytime soon.
January 9th, 2008 at 8:54 pm
The Supes traded the very first pick of the second round to Houston for a future 2nd and cash. That’s what’s dumb. It’s also purely a cost-cutting move.
Agreed. That was an extremely dumb trade purely a cost cutting measure, which is a bit odd considering the salary they were adding with a few of their other deals. They could have gotten a quality player with that pick that could have helped out this franchise down the line.
January 9th, 2008 at 8:55 pm
mtp Says:
“Man, you can tell the Celts really miss Ray, they’re about to lose to the Bobcats at home for gods sakes. I love that, Ray’s vital son!”
The Celts had moved into first in power rankings too before this lose due to beating Detroit. Of course we should remember it would be crazy to try to build a defensive team around Ray Allen…
January 9th, 2008 at 8:58 pm
“The Supes traded the very first pick of the second round to Houston for a future 2nd and cash. That’s what’s dumb. It’s also purely a cost-cutting move.”
This move also argues against the value we got for Rashard. Thomas is solid and may still yield value in a trade, but putting a whole lot of value on late first round picks would seem at odds with giving up the first pick in the second round. Perhaps they will be used to improve another trade though.
January 9th, 2008 at 9:09 pm
The Sonics have 2 #1’s, and 4 #2’s in this year’s draft. If that isn’t enough to make up for the infinitesimal nano-talent they lost by giving up the 31st pick last year, then we’re in serious freaking trouble.
By the way, last time I checked, those 2008 picks were:
#5, #27, #35, #42, #51, #52, and #57.
Do ya think that might offset anything Glen Davis or Carl Landry do this year or next?
My feeling is if Presti can turn those 6 picks (and whatever current roster players) into a PG, a PF, and a C he’ll be OK.
January 9th, 2008 at 9:12 pm
Not sure I agree that it was a cost cutting move considering 2nd round draft picks don’t cost anything. Do they? I think drafting a second rounder and cutting him doesn’t cost us a cent.
Maybe in the eyes of some there weren’t any prospects worth using the second round pick/picks for. I don’t agree…but who knows what the thought process was.
Do a lot of NBA teams have the full 15?
January 9th, 2008 at 9:16 pm
For the record I wanted us to use the 2nd rounders too. But in the end I don’t think it really matters much now. We aren’t talking about missing out on game breakers or ROY candidates.
January 9th, 2008 at 9:21 pm
Menace Says:
“I just remember a lot of consolidation talk post draft. Plus historically 2nd rounders/FAs don’t make our squad very often. It would be even harder with two guaranteed first rounders coming in that year. ”
Very surprising that no consolidation trade of any kind has been made. Did they really think they needed to extensively evaluate everyone here? I can understand not making wholesale changes but some kind of 2 for 1 for a position we need would have put some interest into things.
January 9th, 2008 at 9:22 pm
“just prepare for 3-4 or more years of this.”
great, just in time for them to flourish elsewhere. this suks!!
January 9th, 2008 at 9:22 pm
What did they feed Petro before the game? 10 of 15 with 9 rebs. Who is this masked man? If he could only do it regularly we would have us a big that can play.
January 9th, 2008 at 9:30 pm
I mean, just for kicks, look at this year’s rookie crop. Oden is out, so he doesn’t count.
There’s Durant, Horford, Yi, Green, and Sean Williams - that’s probably the All-Rookie team as of today.
Mike Conley finally just became a starter, and who else? Acie Law? Corey Brewer? Lots of people here wanted Presti to draft those guys - are they even playing yet? And nobody else has done anything. Glen Davis is getting 12 minutes a night for Boston - because they have nothing off the bench. No veterans. Nada. Collison would be getting 25+ minutes a night for Boston.
Certainly Stuckey and some other guys will blossom into nice players or major rotation players later on, but it’s not like the Sonics missed a guy who could be taking Collison’s minutes right now, or even Damien’s minutes, as pathetic as that is.
Sorry to rant, but the 31st or 35th picks aren’t the problem.
January 9th, 2008 at 9:31 pm
Courtsense: The Sonics have 2 #1’s, and 4 #2’s in this year’s draft. If that isn’t enough to make up for the infinitesimal nano-talent they lost by giving up the 31st pick last year, then we’re in serious freaking trouble.
As a matter of fact, we are in serious trouble. Presti turned #31 into a future mid-40s-50s pick… The man is a genius. Perhaps AK can muster up one of his famous trade scenarios involving multiple 2nd round picks? They’re so valuable, after all.
Menace: Not sure I agree that it was a cost cutting…
Don’t forget the cash.
Do a lot of NBA teams have the full 15?
Some do. Portland does. A team with Sene & Swift should.
We aren’t talking about missing out on game breakers or ROY candidates.
No, we’re not. But we are talking about extra minutes for Damien Wilkins.
January 9th, 2008 at 9:33 pm
it’s not like the Sonics missed a guy who could be taking Collison’s minutes right now, or even Damien’s minutes, as pathetic as that is.
Sorry to rant, but the 31st or 35th picks aren’t the problem.
I thought you were a long term/big picture kinda guy. Now you’re going to relate it to only what they’d do THIS season?
January 9th, 2008 at 9:35 pm
“There’s Durant, Horford, Yi, Green, and Sean Williams - that’s probably the All-Rookie team as of today.”
I disagree. The voters would probably switch Moon with Green. I agree that the voters would choose the other guys.
January 9th, 2008 at 9:35 pm
Can’t disagree. I think a lot of people are saying that considering how bad we are/were…..it might have been nice to use the second rounders and give them a shot to make the team. Thats all. Doesn’t hurt and doesn’t cost anything. Who knows what would have happened. If they get cut…..who cares…..they were second rounders. We’ve taken plenty of chances in the first round……..why not the second?
January 9th, 2008 at 9:39 pm
Sorry to rant, but the 31st or 35th picks aren’t the problem.
I guess I missed the post where someone said trading the 31st pick last year was the biggest problem the Sonics have right now? Looked more like a few people disussing how little value the Sonics appear to have gotten out of a pick that can get a team a quality player. Instead we got money and what will amount to a much later pick this season from the Rockets. That pretty much sounds like cost cutting to me, but maybe my view is a bit blurry today.
I wouldn’t mind having Aaron Gray or Gabe Pruitt on the Sonics roster right now. Would give us a couple more young players at positions of need to look at.
January 9th, 2008 at 9:42 pm
I am a big picture guy - but don’t the early returns kinda speak for themselves, in terms of what Presti may have missed out on?
None of these guys are tearing up the league, although certainly some have shown the ability or potential to be good or great at some point. It’s not brain surgery - don’t you think if Presti saw someone he liked he would’ve made a move? I assume he didn’t see anything he really liked, plain and simple.
This just seems like a trivial complaint, that’s all I’m saying. I think a more pressing question is what to do about certain veterans, and what to make of this everlasting evaluation process?
January 9th, 2008 at 9:45 pm
Thanks Alex, I forgot about Moon - you may be right there. Let’s see how he and Green do the rest of the way.
January 9th, 2008 at 9:47 pm
I think a more pressing question is what to do about certain veterans, and what to make of this everlasting evaluation process?
Yeah, but we’ve been beating that dead horse for a while now……..so it doesn’t hurt to bring up another move that disappoints us a bit and looks a little odd for a GM who is suppose to be good a mining late talent. Maybe you are right and Presti didn’t see anyone on the board at #31 that he liked and decided to punt with both those picks…….just seems odd for picks that can typically land a hidden gem.
January 9th, 2008 at 9:49 pm
Half the legue carries 15 guys.
I would have preferred to keep one of the 2nd rounders or a free agent. But they get to do it all again next season.
January 9th, 2008 at 9:54 pm
Presti has had about 200 days on the job and it is close to 100 days since players reported to camp. Evaluation takes time, deals take patience but I hope we see something in next 45 days.
January 9th, 2008 at 9:56 pm
Try figuring out who would make an all rookie 2nd team.
Green/Moon, Scola, Conley Jr., Navarro, and somebody else. Three of the ten players that may make the two all-rookie teams of this season will likely not have been drafted in the 2007 NBA Draft. The hype of a draft class usually never matches the reality, unless it’s 2003.
January 9th, 2008 at 9:58 pm
Evaluation takes time, deals take patience but I hope we see something in next 45 days.
Agreed. It would be nice to see at least one move before the trade deadline this season that reflects progress or movement toward a plan or addresses one of the teams many flaws.
January 9th, 2008 at 10:05 pm
“courtsense, just prepare for 3-4 or more years of this. It ain’t getting prettier anytime soon.”
9-26 Just what Clay wanted on pace for the worst season in our 41 year history. Can someone tell me what Presti has done to deserve the love he gets around here? Ok he apparently helped find a couple good players for the Spurs but thats a long way from putting together a winner! I know it’s real early but i’m speptical until he does it. I remember when Bob Whitsit was a golden boy and he’s not even in the game anymore.
January 9th, 2008 at 10:14 pm
Probably more pertinent than what we did with second rounders last year is what could we do this year with all those picks? Besides our own pick which could be as high as last year, the others probably don’t add up to as much as we’d like.
Some kind of consolidation of mediocre bench players and numerous picks needs to happen or else we’ll have way too many non-rotation players (as if we already don’t have enough) and way too few real NBA players. At least there will be changes of some kind to spice things up.
January 9th, 2008 at 10:29 pm
I’ve posted this on the message board as well. From the TNT today……
“According to sources with knowledge of the plan, the city’s proposal will be similar to a plan it presented to former Sonics owner Howard Schultz and his group, just before the Schultz sold the team to Bennett’s group.”
http://www.thenewstribune.com/sports/story/249756.html
I don’t know how to feel about that. I guess we will have to wait and see of course. But it doesn’t really inspire me to hear that its “similar”. I know Shultz already said no to it. Did Bennett originally? Did he field those original proposals?
If its “similar”……WHY THE HELL IS IT TAKING SO LONG?
January 9th, 2008 at 10:32 pm
what does the little yellow circle/face mean?
January 9th, 2008 at 10:36 pm
At this point, I am fine with the proposal they presented shultzy. there is NO WAY that bennett is getting a 500+M arena here. the NBA now has to put up or shut up and show us their books on WHY it wouldn’t work, meaning show us your books. If the ONLY way the sonics can make money is if they don’t pay one penny into an arena, and we put up the most expensive palace in the NBA - then something is definitely wrong in the NBA landscape. We had a previous ownership wanting a remodel, a group of possible local owners saying that a remodel Key is fine… then NBA, you need to tell us EXACTLY why it won’t work.
No more excuses.
January 9th, 2008 at 10:44 pm
Presti is a mystery man. Beyond pushing for Parker and a few other details what he did in San Antonio is hard to separate from RJ Buford and Popovich.
We know he wants defense, team, character, competing, yadda yadda.
Durant and Green are talents, appear to have good character, care about team (to a level, maybe not all the way there yet) and compete. The defense… not there that much yet…. nor the chemistry.
The next sets of moves need to improve the offense or defense back up to at least average in relative swift order. If defense is the foundation then I expect the next moves to do more of that than adding West and Wally did.
January 9th, 2008 at 10:45 pm
No offense Jammin. But it really doesn’t matter what you think about the proposal. It really matters a lot what Clay B thinks. I think the key is fine too. I like it.
Why doesn’t it work how it is? The lease is horrible.
“We had a previous ownership wanting a remodel, a group of possible local owners saying that a remodel Key is fine… then NBA, you need to tell us EXACTLY why it won’t work.”
Nobody has ever said that the ownership doesn’t have to put in any money. Previous ownership already s-canned this proposal. Then they sold the team. We aren’t owned locally……so it doesn’t really matter what “possible” owners think either.
What would be tight is if the city offered to renegotiate the lease.
January 9th, 2008 at 10:47 pm
Actually I take that last jab back. West and Wally arent great defenders but they are ok. And I forgot Thomas.
January 9th, 2008 at 11:02 pm
Thanks Johan. After sticking my neck on the chopping block a few weeks ago by saying I think Petro might still turn out to be a decent player I’ve been having thoughts about how some people must think I’m insane. At least I can breath some now until his next game when he gets 4 fouls in 5 minutes.
Seriously, I didn’t see the game. Did he actually earn those stats or were they of a Vlad Radmanovic type where the rebounds fell into his hands instead of fighting for them and the points were the result of easy chances rather than creating anything himself?
I guess every dog has his day but I am smiling after seeing those stats. C’mon Johan, keep it going big guy.
Also, how was Collisons game? From the boxscore it looks like he did a good job although I’m always a believer that if the team doesn’t succeed then no one should brag about a good individual performance.
January 9th, 2008 at 11:03 pm
But they need more than a zone executed right.
They need a couple of truly strong defenders added to the mix. A PG and a big. But with the offense so weak it has basically got to be 2 way strong players added.
I hope at least one of the two is filled by a vet. To fill all needs by rookies will be a very long process.
January 9th, 2008 at 11:06 pm
There is an arena in OKC which is bigger, and, from the NBA’s perspective, “better” than KeyArena. That is all that matters. Seattle has to provide an equal or better venue than OKC, or Bennett is moving the Sonics to OKC when the KeyArena lease expires, or sooner, if he can get out of the last couple years of the lease.
The NBA does not have to explain anything to Seattle. Bennett owns the Sonics. After the lease at KeyArena expires, Bennett can do whatever he wants with the Sonics (the NBA is not going to prevent Bennett from moving the Sonics, if that is what he wants to do.)
January 9th, 2008 at 11:12 pm
The past 2 seasons Petro shot over 50% from the field, and they were not all dunks and layups. He has a very good mid-range jumper in my opinion. And he can score in the paint with little jump hooks. Why everyone is so down on Petro is a mystery to me. He needs minutes to play well, just like everyone else. If Wilcox is out much longer, I would keep giving 20+ minutes/game to Petro. Why not?
And Collison really looks good when he gets consistent minutes.
But where will the Sonics be without Kurt Thomas? I can’t imagine Thomas will be back next year, even if he stays on the Sonics the rest of this year.
January 9th, 2008 at 11:20 pm
Petro shot well last season and may be bouncing back but the shooting numbers for this season so far have been a good deal weaker than 50%.
January 9th, 2008 at 11:28 pm
I said Presti was a mystery in part because Durant & Green don’t fit obviously parallel Spurs. I assume that Kurt Thomas the first big he picked is an indicator of one type of big he likes (tough smart vet, rebounding /defense, not hung up on offense but can chip in) but don’t know how he sees the whole big cast. In the past I assumed he might like a PG like Parker but Durant & Green picks make me less certain about how far the Spurs model will be used for guidance. The 3 ptr as Alex notes sure seems less emphasized as least this transition year.
January 9th, 2008 at 11:33 pm
For the cheap contract he has I’m inclined to keep Petro. Something about him tells me he could turn out to be at least as good as Steven Hunter( not that that’s saying much), who if I’m correct is making the MLE on his contract.
Having a cheap, servicable center for a reserve role frees up money to spend elsewhere. And I think Petro still has two more seasons after this one on his rookie contract.
January 10th, 2008 at 12:18 am
Ak1984 said: ““Petro’s. His contract was expiring at season’s end anyway.” {MartinH}
Sam Presti exercised the team options on both Johan Petro and Mouhamed Sene’s contracts, however.”
After the draft, he did, yes. If we’d had to eat a contract on draft day, Petro’s was probably the most palatable.
January 10th, 2008 at 12:28 am
TukwilaSonics said: “This move also argues against the value we got for Rashard. Thomas is solid and may still yield value in a trade, but putting a whole lot of value on late first round picks would seem at odds with giving up the first pick in the second round. Perhaps they will be used to improve another trade though.”
No, it doesn’t argue against it at all.
The value we got for Rashard was not having to fork out 20 large for him in a couple of years’ time like Orlando’s going to have to. I think we’re all pretty happy that that’s not happening.
January 10th, 2008 at 12:50 am
“Seriously, I didn’t see the game. Did he actually earn those stats or were they of a Vlad Radmanovic type where the rebounds fell into his hands instead of fighting for them and the points were the result of easy chances rather than creating anything himself?”
DK, he got a lot of rebounds in traffic, so I guess you can call most of them earned. Seriously in limited minutes this year, he hasn’t been all that bad. Atleast not as bad as last year. Petro still gets lost though on defense as far as stepping up when there’s penetration. Much like everybody else on the team, he plays matador D. Petro is our best jumpshooting big man…yes even better than Thomas.
Collison had a great game again. He used a couple of scoop shots, put backs, and layups off alley oops. He was just all over the place on the glass. If he had a shotblocking center next to him, he’d look like gold…much like P.J Brown with all of those years next to Mourning and Big Ben.
January 10th, 2008 at 3:20 am
courtsense Says:
January 9th, 2008 at 9:09 pm
The Sonics have 2 #1’s, and 4 #2’s in this year’s draft. If that isn’t enough to make up for the infinitesimal nano-talent they lost by giving up the 31st pick last year, then we’re in serious freaking trouble.
By the way, last time I checked, those 2008 picks were:
#5, #27, #35, #42, #51, #52, and #57.
That’s 7 picks.
January 10th, 2008 at 7:28 am
Sammy is not a mystery man, has an eye for talent. There are alot of things as we all know that can be done with this roster as far as transitioning guys.. Yes Petro had some numbers last night but look at the whole picture, he is not at the level to play like that every night.. I read about all of the guys we would like to see here, and agree with some and question some.. OJ Mayo is a good player but I think it was crow who said he doesn’t have his head on tight. I do have to tell you that is something that is very important in todays NBA, alot of guys shoot their mouth off without accomplishing anything on the court.. I do not know Kevin Durant, but I do know Rick Barnes and he told me what a great kid.. Everyone I have talked with say’s he is a great kid, which is so important as I said in todays game.. Lawrence Frank made PJ look sick last night, did you see some of the sets they ran for Jefferson, each time PJ called a timeout, he made no adjustments on defense and Jefferson made them pay. There was one play where the Nets ran a simple overload when they swung the ball weak side and the Sonics did not know how to react, it was sad. The thing I am cocerned with here is the Defense, if PJ is defensive minded as Sam wants him to be what the hell is going on. I like Rose, he could help this team, I like Jason Thompson, he can eventually help this team.. Thompson is a gamble as sometimes kids like him are a bust, but he can score from the post, soft touch, good defender, lacks athleticism that could hurt his chances..
January 10th, 2008 at 10:17 am
In the ever changing landscape of the draft this next season, here is a new (yesterday) article at DraftExpress on Mayo. Interesting read and gives some insite into his freshman season and the rest of the USC team right now.
http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/O.J.-Mayo-238/
I’ve got a couple ways I’d like to see the team go in the upcoming draft depending obvously on how it all shakes out with the lottery balls. If we get a shot at Rose, I think he’s a no brainer guy you take and you’ve got your PG for the next decade. However, if we miss out on Rose, I wouldn’t mind seeing the team go after Mayo and bring in a veteran PG to run the show with all the young guys. I’d also like to see us pick up Kyle Weaver (combo guard) with our early second round pick and adding a few of the other 2nd round picks if needed to move up to get him. I haven’t seen him play much, but he reminds me a bit of a Nate McMillan type big, defensive minded guard. I’d like to see us add some size and defensive attitude at our guard positions in the offseason.
Then pick up a big guy with the Phoenix pick and call it good, from a draft perspective. Still need to address the center position, which I’d like to see the team do through trade. Then end up with something like this……for a roster going into next season.
PG: Vet PG / Ridnour (hard to move right now as BYC) / Weaver
SG: MayoDraft Pick
C: Vet C / Swift / Sene
Wilkins ops out of his contract at end of season if Presti doesn’t convince someone to take him off our hands in a deal before the trade deadline. Presti finds a way to trade Watson, Wilcox, Thomas and Petro in deals for the Vet Center and or a Vet PG. I don’t think Swift is movable right now and I don’t think the team will let him walk for nothing yet.
Anyways, I’d consider that stage two of the re-building effort. I think that could possibly move us into the late lottery next season or into a low playoff spot. Then next season you reassess the teams needs/flaws a couple months into the season and make moves to address them. You’d have Ridnour out of his BYC status and Wally as a big expiring deal to work with. Hopefully, Swift has either matured a bit more or gotten healthy enough that he gains some value or starts helping the team.
Anyways, just food for thought and discussion.
January 10th, 2008 at 10:19 am
Something happend to the roster above so here it is again.
PG: Vet PG / Ridnour / Weaver
SG: Mayo / West
SF: Durant / Wally Z
PF: Green / Collison / Draft Pick
C: Vet C / Swift / Sene
January 10th, 2008 at 10:32 am
Frozenropers, I’ve been looking at most of the pointguards in the league that are pretty good players and for the life of me I can’t come up with any way that another team would trade any of them in return for what Seattle has to offer.
At best I could see if the Sonics end up lower than #3 in the draft they could trade down a bit and grab a good pointguard by dangling the higher pick and some players in return for a good pointguard and a lower pick.
As far as a vet center I think that’s achieveable. Who do you think Seattle could get as far as a vet pointguard and center?
I know as far as the lower pick from the Suns there’s a possibilty they could select Courtney Lee or Richard Hendrix with a little work to move up, and yes, the likes of Weaver should be there for them in the second round. Hendrix is a Paul Milsap type of power forward and Lee has been compared to Anthony Parker.
But neither one solves the biggest problem at pointguard and center.
January 10th, 2008 at 10:46 am
Beantown I was saying Presti is a mystery man to me right now. But that isn’t really a big knock on him, that is mainly just saying I haven’t figured him out yet based on his moves and limited public comments. He isn’t a mystery to you or to himself. As much I am waiting for him to prove things, I tend to accept he probably will.
I didnt comment on Mayo’s attitude because I havent studied him enough. But if I had I might have said something like that based on what I have seen & heard. I don’t think he is the best choice of next big ingredient to be added.
I tend to want a versatile big from the draft- bigger than Green, with more post game or outside shooting or both. Your recommendation about Thompson sounds like a good possibility for one of the draft picks. As a low first rounder he might be worth the gamble, with his shooting and size making him different enough from the rest of the bigs here (maybe somewhere halfway between Green and Petro?) and worth the add. As a second rounder he sounds even better. Wonder how his stock changes in draft camp.
January 10th, 2008 at 10:52 am
DK, with that late Phoenix pick or our early 2nd, here are a few post players that could interest me. Obviously draft strategy would depend on how the draft is playing out and who we figured might be available at those picks.
Jason Thompson, PF (Rider)
DeVon Hardin, PF (Cal)
Ryan Anderson, PF (Cal)
Richard Hendrix, PF (Bama)
Joey Dorsey, PF (Memphis)
DJ White, PF (Indiana)
I left any of the foreign guys out, just don’t know much about them.
January 10th, 2008 at 11:01 am
DK,
Yes, trades for a vet PG or vet C are a whole different beast. Going to take alot of phone time, good fortune / timing and just plain luck for Presti to find a good fit but you’d think with Wilcox as the center piece, Thomas’ expiring, if they want to use it, Petro (quick trade him now after his good garbage game) and or Watson, he’d be able to find a fit for one of the two (PG or C).
Rumors continue to flow out of Philly regarding all their guys (Miller, Dalembert and now Carney). I’d really be interested in addding Dalembert as the teams center for the next 3 years. Don’t know that they deal him though. Probably could have gotten him for very little last season, now, not so much. Timing is everything.
I’ll have to go look around for veteran PG’s that might fit.
January 10th, 2008 at 11:02 am
MartinH, I agree completely with what we got out from under in terms of Rashard’s max contract (although he says he would have signed for much less originally). There is little chance he will live up to max player ability for all those years. I was only commenting on what we got in the sign and trade, which some said was impressive getting two first rounders. Because they are late picks they are only slightly more valuable than the high second round pick that Presti saw little value in. Not a big deal, just and interesting way to look at how he might work in the future based on his few moves so far.
January 10th, 2008 at 11:10 am
The median number of 3 pt attempts a game in league is about 17. Sonics are 13 right now.
here is the breakout by position:
League average… Sonics
PG 4.5 3.3
SG 5.5 4.3
SF 4.6 5.8
PF 2.7 0.3
C almost zero
Sonics probably could get more from Wally if they worked at it with screens or perhaps with time even more from Durant or from new options at PG or PF.
January 10th, 2008 at 11:11 am
“Because they are late picks they are only slightly more valuable than the high second round pick that Presti saw little value in.”
Don’t you mean ‘because one is a low first round pick’. Two years after that is an eternity in the NBA, especially when your system is dependent on Nash being healthy for the next three years.
Basically he moved up 3-5 slots in this years draft and picked up another #1 for a player that we had no intention of resigning to the type of contract he wanted.
What if he can deal Thomas for another asset, does that change the equation even more?
January 10th, 2008 at 11:23 am
The median number of 3 pt attempts a game in league is about 17. Sonics are 13 right now.
Just launching 3 pt shots in order to “match up” with league average attempts isn’t a good idea, IMO. You have to have the players that shoot, at minimum, league average percentages from 3 pt land in order for it to make sense.
January 10th, 2008 at 11:30 am
It is going to be hard to address the C and PG positions. With picks #2 and #5 in a quality draft we addressed the wing positions for many years to come. This year’s high pick will be one more opportunity if a quality C or PG are there, and after that it will be up to Presti to come up with those players the same way all non-rebuilding teams have to through FA or trades.
January 10th, 2008 at 11:36 am
Scott Says:
“Don’t you mean ‘because one is a low first round pick’. Two years after that is an eternity in the NBA, especially when your system is dependent on Nash being healthy for the next three years.”
If Phoenix falls apart then yes one will be a low pick and the deal will becomes far more valuable for Seattle. That is certainly a possible upside to the deal. I’m just going on history though where Phoenix has very few poor seasons no matter who they have on their roster. They are one of the best run organizations in pro sports.
January 10th, 2008 at 11:45 am
Crow Says:
“The median number of 3 pt attempts a game in league is about 17. Sonics are 13 right now.
here is the breakout by position:
League average… Sonics
PG 4.5 3.3
SG 5.5 4.3
SF 4.6 5.8
PF 2.7 0.3
C almost zero”
Interesting numbers Crow. Shows how important the 3 is when teams have that many attempts by their power forwards. Ties in with previous discussions about the old style PF going away and a face the basket/run the floor type PF becoming more the norm.
January 10th, 2008 at 11:54 am
Certainly frozenropers. It has to be quality takes by quality shooters and you shouldnt stretch beyond th eplayers ability. I was just curious to see the 3 pt shot distribution. Every team is different but on average getting some 3 pt attempts out of PF spot has become fairly common. On average teams get almost as many 3 pt attempts from their PFs as we do PG. That is probably more of a PG issue here than at PF. Ridnour is a low 3 pt attempt guard. He can be decent on accuracy but he has never been volume of takes, a large 3 pt weapon. Watson has flirted with it, has cut back and in last 10 games has been very solid with his 3pt FG%- 52%. West is low on attempts, good on 3pt FG% for season but not in last 10 games.
January 10th, 2008 at 11:59 am
Right TukwilaSonic. A face up PF doesnt have to be your starter but it is common and a pretty useful thing to have available on the bench this days. If you want to follow the trend. You don’t have to but if you buck, you better ride to victory.
January 10th, 2008 at 12:22 pm
I think some GMs actually value an early 2nd round pick higher than a late 1st rounder. You’re taking a gamble on a player of similar stock without the three-year locked-in contract.
January 10th, 2008 at 12:46 pm
Yeah Dick it varies depending on cap / roster slot situation and the players available and the one you choose. A later first round pick can make more sense for a big or PG if you like ‘em enough to commit and see their pay as a good value. A high second round can make more sense for a wing or really any player you are less committed to. The half million or so difference in pay shouldnt be a big deal (unless you are in luxury tax range) but some owners want to save a few bucks if they arent convinced it is worth it. (Phoneix giving away draft picks and signing vets on minimum helps their luxury tax situation a little and a good part of the salary is picked up by league.)
January 10th, 2008 at 2:23 pm
I have been to alot of camps and I have to tell you the post is becoming a lost art.. I have not seen guys in the post who make nice spin moves or drop steps and are able to shoot. It seems that most big guys who are athletic have a hard time shooting, not scoring, shooting. Oden does not impress me offensively, he does not have that touch. I am not saying there are not guys who can’t score, but shoot it. Tim Duncan has a nice bank shot and can nail a 10 to 12 footer consistantly facing the basket. Dwight Howard has worked on his post game, and now has serious skills in the post, but no soft touch from 15.. As I have talked about Jason Thompson, he has nice touch, with some post skills. His brother Ryan is also on the team at Rider and they make quite a combo, he is 6′6 handles the ball alot and can also shoot.. Who knows maybe the Thompson boys could take the Pacific Northwest by storm…
January 10th, 2008 at 3:40 pm
“I didnt comment on Mayo’s attitude because I havent studied him enough. But if I had I might have said something like that based on what I have seen & heard. I don’t think he is the best choice of next big ingredient to be added. ”
That was me that commented on Mayo. I’m a huge fan of Mayo’s game, but I’m not sure how he’ll handle being a pro. This year at USC he’s been listening to the media hype and criticisms about not being a team player, all about himself, yada yada. In every single game I’ve seen him play, he’s passed up a lot of open shots that scorers normally take. He hasn’t been as aggressive in the 4th quarter when his team was down or needed a big bucket. It just seems like he’s trying to prove the critics wrong that he isn’t a ballhog. I really believe he could dominate the college level right now, but he’s just trying way too hard to be a good teammate.
January 10th, 2008 at 4:32 pm
It is a tricky deal with guards. They can get criticized either way. Big man may not get criticized quite as much for too many shots or failing to set up teammates, at least in some surface appraisals. A detailed team scouting report should address these things.
Turnaround mid to even long range bank shot from the wing was my most practiced / best shot when I was young.
January 10th, 2008 at 5:57 pm
My favorite move in high school was recieving the pass in the post on the left block, pivot and face up, jab fake left, dribble drive towards the middle, and drop step back to the baseline/left-block for a bank.
January 10th, 2008 at 6:24 pm
ajw what would you do if I was covering you, what if I didn’t go for the jab fake and followed you right to the middle played off you a bit then when you dropped to the baseline guess what here I am. I know what would happen my man no not the second row, I would smack it to one of my teamates for an outlet pass to start the break, and then I would get the assist..
January 10th, 2008 at 6:30 pm
“I would smack it to one of my teamates for an outlet pass to start the break, and then I would get the assist..”
In what world do you get an assist for smacking the ball to a teammate for the outlet pass?
January 10th, 2008 at 6:30 pm
Nice.
I did what I could on perimeter, limiting the dribble, with very high release to overcome being fairly short and without much hops.
January 10th, 2008 at 6:31 pm
My favorite move in high school was recieving the pass in the post on the left block, pivot and face up, jab fake left, dribble drive towards the middle, and drop step back to the baseline/left-block for a bank.
Man, I gotta say. That sounds like a hell of a lot going on for a move that starts out on the block.
January 10th, 2008 at 6:52 pm
When you smack it to your teamate at half court and he goes in and finishes yes I would get the assist. And yes that is alot going on down on the block I would let you do all of your little hanky panky, then smack it for another assist..
January 10th, 2008 at 6:55 pm
My favorite move in high school was drop step clear your ass out and flush the ball so f-en hard through the hoop it hurt someone. Took under 2 seconds from the time I got the ball from it hitting someone in the nose after the ball went through..
January 10th, 2008 at 7:07 pm
The advantages of size, speed, strength, smarts…
would been nice to have those
January 10th, 2008 at 10:14 pm
“ajw what would you do if I was covering you, what if I didn’t go for the jab fake and followed you right to the middle played off you a bit then when you dropped to the baseline guess what here I am. I know what would happen my man no not the second row, I would smack it to one of my teamates for an outlet pass to start the break, and then I would get the assist.. ”
Give you an elbow to the face.
January 10th, 2008 at 10:16 pm
No but seriously, I would start out on the block, but to catch the pass I used to have to come to the ball. So it brought me out to about a little under the free throw line extended.
January 10th, 2008 at 10:21 pm
“The advantages of size, speed, strength, smarts…
would been nice to have those ”
The one thing that I wish I had in high school was strength. I never worked on weight lifting, but rather conditioning. Kinda sucks having a Kevin Durant type of body with shooting guard skills but being forced to play center because I was the tallest on the team. Being relied on to bang down low with that frame sucked as well.
January 11th, 2008 at 10:02 am
We all work with what we got.
I had a friend who was fairly tall but quite light and he played a lot like you desrcibe in your move and took various options off it. Being light in the post you’d have to use length and footwork and a lot of moves for deception on where the shot has going to come from… I’d think.
January 11th, 2008 at 10:06 am
I guess a simple move might work if it were real quick and well done.
January 11th, 2008 at 10:24 am
I guess a simple move might work if it were real quick and well done.
After clarifying, ajw wasn’t really making that move on the block, he was really starting out closer to the high post when he received the ball. Which makes more sense and gives him more room to go through all the motions he was describing. Trying to do all that from the block, would typically result in him getting stripped from another defender that sagged back down to help while he was going through the motions.
Not having played the post much after High School, I’m definately not an expert in that area, but I can say, you typically don’t have time or room to do all the dancing around ajw was describing from the block. You either get deep position and receive the pass at the block and make a quick power move, one dribble at the most and go up. Maybe throw in a fake here and there with a step under (Hello Kevin McHale) or you step out to receive the pass and face up the defender. At which you either knock down the 6-8 footer if he doesn’t close out or you work your jab step to get the defender shifting his feet and then go hard to the bucket.
Operating at the high post and or farther away from the bucket, allows more time and room to throw a few more complex moves at the defender before the rest of the defense has a chance to react. That’s all I was getting at.
January 11th, 2008 at 12:33 pm
Gotcha.
On the block is different than high post.
When I said “post” with regard to my friend I meant it loosely and it was at rec level. Post at the level we played most of the time wasn’t that strong so he could do stuff deeper than would be possible for ajw at competitive high school level or beyond.
March 12th, 2008 at 1:31 am
Light Weight Wheel Chairs
Interesting - because that is the same thing I found out last Thursday.