1/9/08 Box Score: Sonics 88 Net 99
Posted on Wednesday, January 9th, 2008 at 10:58 pm by Big Chris
It wasn’t ever as close as the final score would make it seem. I suspect that as long as he is in the NBA, it will spell bad things for his team when Johan Petro leads them in scoring.
Petro had 22 points on 10 of 15 shooting, and added 9 rebounds. Nick Collison had 18 points and 13 rebounds. Kevin Durant added 15 points on a still sore ankle.
17 assists and 17 turn overs for the Sonics. Guard play, as well as the inability to stop New Jersey’s big 3 (Carter, Jefferson and Kidd) was the killer for the Sonics. Earl Watson and Delonte West were a combined 2 for 14 with only 8 assists.
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(18-17)
| Seattle | |||||||||||||||
| Name | Min | FG | 3Pt | FT | +/- | Off | Reb | Ast | TO | Stl | BS | BA | PF | Pts | |
| K. Durant | G | 31:45 | 5-14 | 0-4 | 5-5 | -19 | 0 | 2 | 1 | 3 | 1 | 2 | 0 | 0 | 15 |
| E. Watson | G | 23:44 | 1-7 | 1-3 | 1-2 | -11 | 0 | 0 | 3 | 2 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 4 |
| K. Thomas | C | 24:19 | 2-6 | 0-0 | 0-0 | -16 | 3 | 6 | 0 | 1 | 2 | 1 | 0 | 4 | 4 |
| N. Collison | F | 25:28 | 7-10 | 0-0 | 4-5 | -9 | 6 | 13 | 1 | 2 | 0 | 1 | 2 | 3 | 18 |
| J. Green | F | 24:02 | 1-4 | 0-0 | 3-4 | -4 | 0 | 3 | 3 | 2 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 2 | 5 |
| D. Wilkins | 30:57 | 5-12 | 1-2 | 2-2 | -3 | 3 | 3 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 13 | |
| J. Petro | 30:28 | 10-15 | 0-0 | 2-2 | -5 | 1 | 9 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 3 | 0 | 5 | 22 | |
| D. West | 24:16 | 1-7 | 0-2 | 0-0 | 0 | 0 | 7 | 5 | 2 | 3 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 2 | |
| W. Szczerbiak | 15:45 | 2-6 | 1-2 | 0-1 | +8 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 5 | |
| M. Gelabale | 9:16 | 0-3 | 0-1 | 0-0 | +4 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 3 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 0 | |
| L. Ridnour | DNP - Coach’s Decision | ||||||||||||||
| C. Wilcox | DNP - Coach’s Decision | ||||||||||||||
| Totals | 34-84 | 3-14 | 17-21 | 15 | 45 | 17 | 17 | 9 | 8 | 4 | 17 | 88 | |||
| Percentages: | .405 | .214 | .810 | Team Rebounds: 8 |
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| New Jersey | |||||||||||||||
| Name | Min | FG | 3Pt | FT | +/- | Off | Reb | Ast | TO | Stl | BS | BA | PF | Pts | |
| V. Carter |
G |
38:12 | 8-15 | 1-3 | 1-1 | +8 | 0 | 8 | 6 | 5 | 1 | 0 | 2 | 4 | 18 |
| J. Kidd | G | 28:52 | 6-11 | 4-8 | 0-0 | +19 | 0 | 5 | 11 | 3 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 16 |
| J. Boone | C | 27:35 | 3-6 | 0-0 | 5-8 | +14 | 3 | 6 | 0 | 1 | 2 | 0 | 1 | 4 | 11 |
| R. Jefferson | F | 29:50 | 11-17 | 3-3 | 3-6 | +21 | 1 | 5 | 6 | 2 | 3 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 28 |
| S. Williams | F | 20:28 | 1-1 | 0-0 | 0-0 | +11 | 2 | 5 | 0 | 2 | 3 | 3 | 0 | 3 | 2 |
| M. Allen | 27:32 | 6-12 | 0-0 | 3-3 | 0 | 2 | 2 | 0 | 0 | 2 | 1 | 1 | 2 | 15 | |
| B. Nachbar | 26:30 | 2-14 | 0-2 | 3-4 | -5 | 2 | 6 | 1 | 0 | 2 | 0 | 4 | 2 | 7 | |
| J. Collins | 20:25 | 1-3 | 0-0 | 0-0 | -3 | 0 | 3 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 2 | |
| D. Armstrong | 19:07 | 0-1 | 0-0 | 0-0 | -8 | 0 | 1 | 2 | 2 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 2 | 0 | |
| A. Wright | 1:26 | 0-0 | 0-0 | 0-0 | -2 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | |
| J. Magloire | DNP - Coach’s Decision | ||||||||||||||
| M. Williams | DNP - Coach’s Decision | ||||||||||||||
| Totals | 38-80 | 8-16 | 15-22 | 10 | 42 | 27 | 15 | 13 | 4 | 8 | 18 | 99 | |||
| Percentages: | .475 | .500 | .682 | Team Rebounds: 8 |
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| Game Info |
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Technical Fouls: New Jersey - B. Nachbar 1 Attendance: 14,101 Officials: Greg Willard, Marc Davis, Pat Fraher |
January 10th, 2008 at 12:37 am
All you need to know about this game is Petro had 22 pts and 9 rebs…if that isnt the sign of a Sonic loss I dont know what is.
January 10th, 2008 at 12:46 am
Cougs and Mayo playing at eight on FSN… sounds like a serious game with many implications for Northwest Basketball.
January 10th, 2008 at 12:52 am
I for one am a big Mayo fan. I think he has all the talent to be an NBA superstar. Just not sure if his head on his shoulders is on straight.
January 10th, 2008 at 12:56 am
arrgg… I fell asleep somewhere around the end of second quarter and didn’t wake up till the fourth.
Durant was visibly struggling, same with Green.
Nick had another great turn out.
There really is nothing to be said about this game. “We are who we thought we were.” Rebuilding year fellas, hang in there.
January 10th, 2008 at 1:01 am
Choosing between our three point pointguards is like trying to decide whether to go Christmas shopping at K-Mart, Goodwill, or Value Village.
January 10th, 2008 at 1:23 am
What has happened to this team since the Phoenix game? This group no longer even resembles the same team that pushed Phoenix and Boston to the brink and had impressive and cohesive wins over Toronto and Minnesota.
Is it the lack of Wilcox? I think it may be a factor but definitely not the only factor. There have been games where Wilcox barely plays due to foul trouble or simply disappears in the second half and the Sonics haven’t suffered like this.
I’m fine with the losing. I know this roster doesn’t have a lot of talent and it’s a rebuilding year, but I’m not ok with the lack of effort and heart. The Sonics should be a better team than they have shown in the last 3 games.
The one trait PJ was most impressed with earlier in the season was the team’s effort and resilliency. They would always bounce back from a poor showing by playing well and playing hard the next game. That has all but disappeared now. Three straight horrible games and the team seems to have accepted it.
Is PJ losing the players? Have they reached a point where they have given up on the season and stopped caring about losing? I’d be really disappointed if that has happened. The more the season goes on, the more I’m convinced that PJ is the wrong coach for this team.
They’ve regressed on both offense and defense. The zone is a joke that always leaves the corners unprotected. The offensive sets are a mess. The dribble handoff at the top of the key is getting nothing accomplished. They don’t post up Durant and he is forced to catch the ball way outside the 3 point line and has to work too hard to get all the way to the basket. The passing is just ugly to watch right now, with every fifth one or so becoming a turnover. Guys seem like they just met each other.
I’m very frustrated with this team right now.
January 10th, 2008 at 2:39 am
It’s not just playing with passion and effort every night. It’s also about playing smart, playing like a pro, playing basketball at a higher level than that of a JV team. Getting PJ from the Spurs I thought our defense would show promise and our offense would show something resembling promise in efficiency, but that has far been the case. I don’t want to just sit here and whine about the team and be all doomsday about it, but I can’t help but feel the same things every game I watch.
On offense it’s frustrating to watch the same exact errors every single time. Rushed shots, inefficient iso play, bad passing, standing around watching somebody dribble, etc etc. You have Watson and Wilkins every single night throwing up bricks faster than construction workers and change is not to be found from game to game. Mind boggling.
It’s not even just Watson and Wilkins, you would get the impression from this community that these guys are the sole reason for the losses. You can harp on all the Sonics. KD just stands there and when he gets the ball he just hoists it up without real set-up, Wilcox disappears, Wally shoots like a hot-potato.
What is the most frustrating is that for some reason, the concepts that are blatantly obvious to the casual fan isn’t registering with the team. Things like being unable to win when there is just one person going on offense, and in addition to making the extra passes. Things like having a post offense and utilizing a 6′10” SG who has displayed an arsenal of post moves in his past. Things like not being able to win without a semblance of an offense flow…
One thing I haven’t seen lately is KD when he is in the flow. I wish we could see more of that guy. You know, when he’s got the ball and he’s setting up his shots with turnaround Js in the post, throwing headfakes all over, utilizing the crossover dribble. Where’d you go? I Miss you so.
January 10th, 2008 at 7:11 am
They are a young team on an east coast road trip. They need at least a year of playing together to be really competitive. Splitting the point guard duties basically 40/60 or 50/50 is not helping unless teams are in a system like the triangle where the traditional point guard is not as essential.
I think Delonte would be better off in a triangle system or a system like Cleveland runs where they can play off of a superstar who handles the ball alot. I think Earl has done a respectable job but he is not consistent even within a game.
Defensively as a team, the Sonics just do not have the man power to stop anyone ever. The starters tend to get blown out in the start of the first and third quarters. That to me is a sign that the coach is not doing enough or not doing things the right way to get the players ready to start and adjust to the game play. If the coach is doing enough, then the sonics do not have the right personal. They do not have ONE wing player who can guard an above average wing player. They do not have one low post player who can consistently play solid help defense without fouling. They do have a versatile tweener (Jeff Green) who can big 3’s and any 4’s. Durant is useless on defense. Delonte is pretty good on defense overall. Ridnour is useless unless he is going for steals 24/7. Wilcox is useless unless he is blocking shots. Kurt Thomas is a great enforcer and 1on1 post defense but lacks athleticism to do much else. Petro i can see signs of him being a factor. Wally plays smart defensively but we all know he is very slow. Earl is a lazy defender. Collison tries hard but he just doesn’t get it done to contest shots.
This doesnt mean that they can’t play defense as a unit, but it will take time as none of them really possess natural defensive awareness with some type of ability besides maybe Jeff Green and Delonte.
January 10th, 2008 at 8:19 am
Time to start dealing players. Not core playes but those who won’t be here in a couple seasons.
The team is missing the boat with Gelabale. IMO he’ll be a good player but like Boris Diaw will have to go somewhere else to realize his potential.
January 10th, 2008 at 9:11 am
Gelabale will not be a good player in this league, he will do better over in Europe, he is an in between. Where does he fit in on this team or any team. I actually can’t think of alot of teams that could use him because he really is not NBA level. He is active when he does get time, but you have to be to stay on the court. I do like Nick Collison, I think he is a smart player, with some skill. His size is something that is going to force him to be able to nail the 15 footer. Danny Ferry made that adjustment right away when he played, thats why he got a contract.. I was in a similar situation myself, learning to play face up and nail the 15 foot jump shot.. Green will also need to learn this as he will be more effective in the future.
January 10th, 2008 at 9:14 am
It is becoming obvious that management does not care one bit about winning this season.
The painful lesson we have learned is that this management says what we as fans want to hear, and then management turns around and follows their own agenda.
The basketbal season is turning out just like the stadium issue.
Management puts on a minimal show of good faith, makes a big speech for the media and fans with words like culture and process, and then behind the scenes management works to undermine any positive progress.
This management says one thing, then does another. It is their standard operating procedure and it will be this way until a new owner is in place.
PJ is a dupe, a pawn, he desperately wants to be a head coach so he doesn’t mind the situation he has found himself in. The sign on his door says “head coach” and at the end of the day that is enough. Management knows this, and that is exactly why PJ was hired. PJ can be easily controlled, and PJ will keep his head in the sand as long as he can keep his job. A yes man.
The relocation application was Clays right cross. The basketball we are watching is Clays uppercut. We as fans have to stand in there and take the punishment if we want to someday have a team that will be here for a long time.
January 10th, 2008 at 9:18 am
Is PJ losing the players? Have they reached a point where they have given up on the season and stopped caring about losing? I’d be really disappointed if that has happened. The more the season goes on, the more I’m convinced that PJ is the wrong coach for this team.
- I see a team that doesn’t care and is becoming selfish…not sure even the best coach can stop this…but PJ definately cannot.
January 10th, 2008 at 9:55 am
“Is PJ losing the players? Have they reached a point where they have given up on the season and stopped caring about losing? I’d be really disappointed if that has happened. The more the season goes on, the more I’m convinced that PJ is the wrong coach for this team.”
Bouncing Earl and Damien would help, at least then they might start running the semblance of an offense. Both those guys took about twice as many shots as they should have again.
I was pretty sure Jefferson was going to smoke this team, I didn’t figure that they weren’t going to make any adjustments to even try to slow him down, let alone stop him.
January 10th, 2008 at 9:58 am
Losing sucks no doubt, the toughest part about losing is that you are all traveling together, staying in the same hotels, going through all the parts of losing is a pure hassle. Then when the media is not behind you the fans are in question, things start to really suck, this team needs confidence. Sounds corny but they need a glimmer of hope, something that can at least get them through the year. You can’t accept losing as a player, it eats you up, then when people tend to be negative around you makes for a bad situation. I am not going to sit here and say lets go team ra ra ra.. We do need to look at the situation at hand, and build positive and productive players, which we all know is going to take time.
January 10th, 2008 at 10:35 am
In the games that I have seen, I can’t say that I’ve been impressed with PJ’s ability to make adjustments during the game.
At some point he’s just got to stop falling back to the same soft zone. I can appreciate him thinking he doesn’t have the personel to man up and get in the other teams face defensively. I can appreciate that as a coach you have to be flexible to the point of adjusting to your personel, but at some point you’ve got to say, screw it, half these guys aren’t going to be here in two seasons, so we’re going to start getting after the other team on defense regardless of the outcome, because you have to instill that defensive philosophy, attitude and intensity in the guys that are going to be around. Challenge them to step up and play some tough man to man defense.
January 10th, 2008 at 11:16 am
“Bouncing Earl and Damien would help, at least then they might start running the semblance of an offense. Both those guys took about twice as many shots as they should have again.”
Earl Watson took 7 shots, one more than Kurt Thomas. Yes they’re bad, but I think it’s ridiculous to think that this team would be better simply without them. Earl Watson has always been a serviceable reserve point guard. Damien Wilkins is perfectly fine as a backup swingman. Unfortunately we dont have anyone better to fill those roles, simple as that. Hell, as much as people are complaining about Wilkins he’s still better than Green at this point, and Green’s starting.
I think the problem is our coaching staff. Why don’t we see PJ ripping Durant a new ass after he jacks up shot after shot? You can blame two players for all of our problems, but the truth is there are very few guys on this team making good decisions with the ball. When have you ever seen so many bad shooters jacking up shots so early in the shot clock, without so much as one pass? and the coach doesn’t ever reprimand them? This isn’t Watson and Wilkins alone, it’s a philosophy that our coaching staff is reinforcing with every player. They’re allowing Wilkins to “discover” himself, as they are with Durant and others. That, IMHO, is f’ng retahded.
January 10th, 2008 at 11:21 am
I see a pg playing in a contract year, a pg playing to make his numbers look good so he doesn’t lose the job to the guy that is hurt, neither are pass first.
All 3 could be good backups, the only one that I think could deal with coming off the bench is Luke, the other two have been moved from other teams for a variety of reasons, in Earl’s case part of it is that he does not deal with coming off the bench like a pro.
I expect to see some other starting pg next year.
deal earl, he can’t handle the truth, and will undercut any rookie we bring in to replace him.
Durant is a sg for another few years, then he may trend toward being a sf, in 10 years his mobility will force him there.
Wilkins, trade him, he didn’t want to be here, still doesn’t.
Gelly is not a starter, I think he could be a very good bench guy, replacable, but not going to hurt this roster.
January 10th, 2008 at 11:25 am
I’m with that Frozen.
Jeff Bzdelik had a terrible Nuggets team a few years back that absoutely played their hearts out every night and busted their ass on defense. They won 17 games in 02-03 but at least they were trying and you could see the effort on the floor. If I saw that kind of effort out of this squad it would make this easier to stomach.
January 10th, 2008 at 11:30 am
“I think it’s ridiculous to think that this team would be better simply without them.”
I think it’s pretty obvious that the team is uniformly awful with the two of them on the floor together. As the de facto floor and veteran leadership from last year they could and should be doing more than just padding their resumes for their next employer, because that is all they have been doing all year.
Of course the whole team is bad. It is unlikely to get any better with those two because for at least half of their floor time they’re calling their own number. As the returning “leaders” from last year that sets the tone for everyone else.
January 10th, 2008 at 11:45 am
Wilkins and Watson will be replaced in the coming draft, deal them now while they look like they have some value to somebody. This is the Flip Murray lession all over again. I don’t care that we currently do not have replacements for them today, for a team that has yet to win a game on 2008.
January 10th, 2008 at 11:47 am
Watson and Wilkins must be good basketball players as their services cost millions of dollars…I can see Watson helping out the Cavs or Heat and Wilkins would look sharp in a Hawks uniform.
Wilcox, Swift and next year’s 1st for an available Gasol and maybe Stromile?
Rose, Gordon, Mayo and that giant who can extend his arms above the rim are enticing prospects too.
January 10th, 2008 at 11:51 am
Thinking of the Dallas game, Jason Terry for Wally and Petro?
January 10th, 2008 at 11:52 am
- If never being a league average player =s serviceable then Earl Watson definately fits the model.
- Wilkins is an undrafted FA who made his contract on one month of decent play in 200-05…he is serviceable in only the loosest sense of the term.
January 10th, 2008 at 11:54 am
“I think it’s pretty obvious that the team is uniformly awful with the two of them on the floor together. As the de facto floor and veteran leadership from last year they could and should be doing more than just padding their resumes for their next employer, because that is all they have been doing all year.”
With all of that said, putting Durant and Green on the floor at the same time is worse. Durant jacks up WAY more shots than Damien… and you’re totally overboard with your assesment of the number of shots Watson is taking. Watson has recieved more playing time than most on the team and yet has taken roughly the same number of shots as Jeff Green. Wilkins has undeniably taken way too many shots. But again, who’s fault is that Damien’s or PJ’s? Damien’s role should be clear. Remember when Nate Mac told him to put down the offense for a while and to focus more on defense? Well, good coach or no, he needs that sort of direction as do most young players, and it ain’t happening.
“Of course the whole team is bad. It is unlikely to get any better with those two because for at least half of their floor time they’re calling their own number. As the returning “leaders” from last year that sets the tone for everyone else.”
Everyone is calling their own number, you’re just irritated with those guys because you know they don’t have a ceiling like Durant or Green. Szczerbiack, obviusly a more accomplished player, but in far fewer minutes has jacked up nearly the same number of shots as Damien.
All I’m saying is I don’t think it’s the players fault as much as it is the coaching staff. This team has no direction or consistent discipline.
January 10th, 2008 at 11:59 am
PJ and company are evaluating the players for the future core. PJ has said the Sonics have too many players who play only offense or only defense. I’m not sure who the latter are besides maybe Thomas, but the players jacking up shots for selfish purposes should be gone soon imho.
January 10th, 2008 at 12:01 pm
“but the players jacking up shots for selfish purposes should be gone soon imho.”
So we’ll be getting rid of Kevin Durant soon? He’s BY FAR the number one person jacking up bad shots.
January 10th, 2008 at 12:02 pm
I don’t think there’s any way to evaluate players by just letting them do as they please. You’ll never know what they’re capable of.
January 10th, 2008 at 12:05 pm
Durant needs to get in a couple thousand shots in the games before it becomes like practice and the ball begins going through the hoop at perhaps an amazing rate. Durant and Green are the new foundation of Seattle’s team, so get used to their mistakes as they turn them into championships.
January 10th, 2008 at 12:06 pm
So we’ll be getting rid of Kevin Durant soon? He’s BY FAR the number one person jacking up bad shots.
Considering Durant is our defacto #1 scoring option as a rookie, and most of the team just stands around watching when he receives the ball, I’m not surprised in the least bit that Durant is forced into taking quite a few bad shots as the shot clock runs out. Do they need more guidance from the coaching staff….definately, however comparing Durant and Wilkins shot attempts is rather comical, given their respective abilities and roles they should be in.
January 10th, 2008 at 12:08 pm
Luke will get out of the doghouse and somebody else will move to the end of bench. The ripple effect will be easier shots for all of the Sonics. Luke is the team’s point guard and should be given a chance hopefully soon.
January 10th, 2008 at 12:09 pm
“- If never being a league average player =s serviceable then Earl Watson definately fits the model.”
If he’s starting over two mediocre guards, and deservedly so, then I’d say he’s at least “serviceable”. But your semantics are so self serving that I’m sure you couldn’t resist.
- “Wilkins is an undrafted FA who made his contract on one month of decent play in 200-05…he is serviceable in only the loosest sense of the term.”
Hell Damien Wilkins can actually say that he’s started at point guard over the man Myk said “could” be the next Steve Nash.
January 10th, 2008 at 12:11 pm
If he’s starting over two mediocre guards, and deservedly so, then I’d say he’s at least “serviceable”. But your semantics are so self serving that I’m sure you couldn’t resist.
- Since when did starting have anything to do with who is the better player? Watson has never had a season nearly as good as those two players have performed in the past…never…not even close…the fact that you can watch him play and support him in any way is disappointing. Even his “highly touted defense” is a myth these days…
Hell Damien Wilkins can actually say that he’s started at point guard over the man Myk said “could” be the next Steve Nash.
- When was this…?
January 10th, 2008 at 12:12 pm
By the way…way to try and make the argument about something completely different than the two players’ actual performance…although that is probably what I would do as well is I was trying to support such a weak argument.
January 10th, 2008 at 12:15 pm
Everyone is calling their own number, you’re just irritated with those guys because you know they don’t have a ceiling like Durant or Green. Szczerbiack, obviusly a more accomplished player, but in far fewer minutes has jacked up nearly the same number of shots as Damien.
All I’m saying is I don’t think it’s the players fault as much as it is the coaching staff. This team has no direction or consistent discipline.
- Why would it be the players fault…I mean its not like we don’t have many years of past performance as an indicator of their abilities…oh wait we do…
There is no point in arguing that either of these players are good/serviceable since it just is not factually correct. My question…if Watson was “serviceable” why aren’t there teams lining up to trade for him? Couldnt a ton of teams use a serviceable back up PG for the playoffs?
January 10th, 2008 at 12:15 pm
Wilkins is a head case, when he was at Georgia his old man and his uncle used to sit behind the bench and tell him to jack it up.. When his father was with the Knicks he to had some attitude problems as well, I did think he could help this team alot more than he has. He seems out to lunch at times, not even in the game..
January 10th, 2008 at 12:15 pm
Durant, Green and Collison in the Rock Concert commercial was shockingly cool.
January 10th, 2008 at 12:17 pm
PJ’s zone is pretty bad. They just give shots away in the corners. with that thing. The other bad thing about zones for these guys is that it really makes it look like they’re not doing anything on defense.
I’m with someone upthread who said that it’s not that Watson and Wilkins are necessarily bad, it’s that they aren’t good enough to be starters. They’d be find fill in guys on any team, but not as starters.
I could be proven wrong by Damien Wilkins when he gets to a different team, but I find it hard to imagine.
January 10th, 2008 at 12:18 pm
“but the players jacking up shots for selfish purposes should be gone soon imho.”
So we’ll be getting rid of Kevin Durant soon? He’s BY FAR the number one person jacking up bad shots.
- Somewhere you lost the word selfish purposes in that argument…
I don’t think there’s any way to evaluate players by just letting them do as they please. You’ll never know what they’re capable of.
- What is the best way to evaluate players in your opinion? For veterans I like to look at past performance to indicate at least somewhat of a measure of their abilities and their “ceilings”…care to do that for Watson or Wilkins…or have they always been the victim of coaching?
January 10th, 2008 at 12:21 pm
Wilkins might need to be in Atlanta playing for his family, as his mind was left there with his 41 point game. He needs their support to stroke his ego, so a deal with Atlanta could be beneficial for everyone, imho….maybe Wilkins is a “Ray Allen” type player as he says, but it seems easy to doubt those delusions of superiority…Allen even has a difficult time staying grounded and he is Ray Allen.
January 10th, 2008 at 12:22 pm
“Considering Durant is our defacto #1 scoring option as a rookie, and most of the team just stands around watching when he receives the ball, I’m not surprised in the least bit that Durant is forced into taking quite a few bad shots as the shot clock runs out. Do they need more guidance from the coaching staff….definately, however comparing Durant and Wilkins shot attempts is rather comical, given their respective abilities and roles they should be in.”
Why is is comical? You’re just in denial. Damien has been put in a position where he’s being relied upon to score points. The coaching staff put him there and I’ve heard them repeatedly endorse his role as a scorer. I agree that he’s performed miserable in that role, but it doesn’t mean there’s not a place on the roster for a player of his caliber. He’s being misused, IMO and that is solely the fault of the coaching staff.
With Durant, same thing. He’s been given the green light to shoot. You don’t need to tell me he’s our #1 option, don’t waste your time repeating that, it has nothing to do with my point. Being relied upon offensively as much as he is means one thing, he’d better diversify his game. He’s entirely capable of that, but I don’t see this “culture” cultivating efficiency or dynamicism. He’s being allowed to be lazy, just as T-Mac was. I’m just as excited as the next guy to see him succeed, but he needs to learn to play the game the right way or every damn one of AK’s predictions will come true.
January 10th, 2008 at 12:23 pm
January 09, 2008
Sonics | Sonics’ Watson can’t quiet doubters | Seattle Times
SEATTLE - Percy Allen from the Seattle Times asks: What’s wrong with Earl Watson?
My answers:
http://theseattlesupersonics.blogspot.com/
November 10, 2007
I’m done with both.
SEATTLE - The punchline to last night’s Sonics/Jazz game is that Watson has yet to have a plus (+/-) game, Wilcox was doubled on the catch in the fourth but wasn’t in the first. Watson and Ridnour are the best backups that are starting NBA games, trade them both.
http://theseattlesupersonics.blogspot.com/2007/11/im-done-with-both.html
January 10th, 2008 at 12:23 pm
Yes crappy game yesterday! But why dog on Petro after he had a solid performance, don’t take out team frustration on the fact that the frenchie contributed and kept it from being a 30 pt game. Lets complain about the other crappy players and pat Petro on the back for this (one) good performance and encourage him (although I forsee him reverting to his regular form) while he is doing well.
January 10th, 2008 at 12:23 pm
I was impressed with the coaching that Lawrence Frank was responsible for in last nights win over the Sonics. He is a great communicator, and broke down alot of the things the Sonics were trying to do. PJ was clearly outmatched last night, Frank has those guys at least listening, they were responding to his play calling. It is very hard for a guy to establish himself at this level. Very little playing experience, very little head coaching experience on the college level, learned the NBA through scouting, developing, and now being a head coach. The players had a hard time at the beginning buying into his system, they have responded positively, and can tell they respect their coach..
January 10th, 2008 at 12:32 pm
“With all of that said, putting Durant and Green on the floor at the same time is worse. Durant jacks up WAY more shots than Damien… and you’re totally overboard with your assesment of the number of shots Watson is taking. Watson has recieved more playing time than most on the team and yet has taken roughly the same number of shots as Jeff Green. Wilkins has undeniably taken way too many shots. But again, who’s fault is that Damien’s or PJ’s? Damien’s role should be clear. Remember when Nate Mac told him to put down the offense for a while and to focus more on defense? Well, good coach or no, he needs that sort of direction as do most young players, and it ain’t happening. ”
Isn’t Watson supposed to be the PG? The initiator of the offense?
Are Earl and Damien career backups forced into starting roles? Yes.
Does that excuse their selfish play and shot selection? Nope.
January 10th, 2008 at 12:39 pm
Why is is comical? You’re just in denial.
I’m not in denial of anything. Your statement that I quoted, was comincial.
One guy is taking bad shots because he’s a rookie trying to learn the league while being relied upon to be the teams #1 scoring option. You are going to get alot of bad shots as he goes through the learning process. That’s just something we have to deal with in a rebuilding process.
The other is a bench player who’s jacking up bad shots in an audition for his next gig.
Not comparable in any way shape or form, IMO.
And yes, we’d expect to see some improvement in Durant’s shot selection as the season goes along. If not, one does has to question the coach staff.
January 10th, 2008 at 12:44 pm
” Somewhere you lost the word selfish purposes in that argument…”
Yes, because we all know that Damien is selfish and Durant is infallible. Get the f outta here with that. Don’t tell me about who these players are as people because obviously you and I don’t know jack about that.
“I don’t think there’s any way to evaluate players by just letting them do as they please. You’ll never know what they’re capable of.
- What is the best way to evaluate players in your opinion? For veterans I like to look at past performance to indicate at least somewhat of a measure of their abilities and their “ceilings”…care to do that for Watson or Wilkins…or have they always been the victim of coaching?”
Well first of all, I’d try to put the team in a position to win. I wouldn’t placate to rookies while berrating veterans publicly. I wouldn’t condone players taking ill-advised shots early in the shot clock. I wouldn’t use the regular season as an “evaluation process”. I would try to define roles that were tailored to individual player’s strenghths. In an environment where most of these criteria are met, I think young players can better display their basketball talents, rather than coaching savvy.
Pretty simple Myk. It’s the same kind of stuff you bitch about on here every day. And besides, in your eagerness to be a snarky prick, you really overlooked my point. I didn’t say that this is an evaluation for Earl Watson or Damien Wilkins, it’s an evaluation, as phenom said, of what to build around. Do you think you should just let the players make their own decisions on the fly, or do you back up thier play with the knowledge on a century old institution. Do you think that the poor play of Watson doesn’t effect our young guys? If so, why wouldn’t the coach rectify that? That was my point jackass.
January 10th, 2008 at 12:45 pm
“And yes, we’d expect to see some improvement in Durant’s shot selection as the season goes along. If not, one does has to question the coach staff”
Dude, the season is going along in case you didn’t notice. How’s Durant’s shot selection doing?
January 10th, 2008 at 12:48 pm
“Isn’t Watson supposed to be the PG? The initiator of the offense?
Are Earl and Damien career backups forced into starting roles? Yes.
Does that excuse their selfish play and shot selection? Nope.”
I want to clarify this. Everything your saying here I totally agree with, Steve. But I dont think the coaching staff is properly communicating to Earl and Damien what they need to change about their game. As a player at that level, you’re always going to believe you can improve, and that you could breakout. I think our coaching staff is fostering that mentality in players like Wilkins and Watson and that is why those players have been exceptionally poor this year.
January 10th, 2008 at 12:49 pm
yes, let’s compare a rookie 35 games into his career, and a player that has been in the league long enough now to have signed a free agent contract with the Twolves and had it matched by the Sonics.
I think Durant, with a willing coach, could learn better shot selection. The other guy signed a free agent contract with the Twolves and had it matched by the Sonics, he didn’t want to sit behind Ray, now he’s behind a guy years younger than him. He’s chucking.
Watson/Wilkins have this effect on Nate, Bob, Bob, and now PJ, they look for each other, and neither should be looking at themselves as the first option.
January 10th, 2008 at 12:51 pm
“that is why those players have been exceptionally poor this year.”
substitute or add ‘Selfish’ or ’shot-happy’ to “poor”
January 10th, 2008 at 12:51 pm
Balloholic, this communication is going on coach #4 now for those two.
January 10th, 2008 at 12:52 pm
“I think Durant, with a willing coach, could learn better shot selection.”
So you’re basically going to take exactly what I’ve been saying…geezuz
January 10th, 2008 at 12:54 pm
Do you think that the poor play of Watson doesn’t effect our young guys? If so, why wouldn’t the coach rectify that?
One possibility might be, “because there hasn’t been an alternative to Watson at the PG position most of the season due to Ridnour and West’s health”. Just saying…..
But I do agree with you that the coaching staff doesn’t appear to be doing much to improve the situation.
January 10th, 2008 at 12:56 pm
Dude, the season is going along in case you didn’t notice. How’s Durant’s shot selection doing?
Actually, I think it was worse the first month, but that’s neither here nor there right now.
Regarding the coaching staff. Have I criticized the coaching staff lately? Maybe you just didn’t see the posts, but its not like I haven’t been vocal about the coaching staff lately.
January 10th, 2008 at 12:58 pm
“Balloholic, this communication is going on coach #4 now for those two.”
BS. Damien and Earl were never the whipping boys of this forum until this year. Earl Watson outplayed Ridnour last year and earned the starting job from another mediocre guard. I don’t think anyone had much of a right to criticize Damien’s play in the past few years, we were getting a good deal for what we were paying for him.
The problem is, if you give him a starting role, increased minutes, and then the coaching staff “we really rely on Damien’s scoring”, WTF do you think he’s going to do?
January 10th, 2008 at 12:58 pm
I want to clarify this. Everything your saying here I totally agree with, Steve. But I dont think the coaching staff is properly communicating to Earl and Damien what they need to change about their game. As a player at that level, you’re always going to believe you can improve, and that you could breakout. I think our coaching staff is fostering that mentality in players like Wilkins and Watson and that is why those players have been exceptionally poor this year.
- This is just silly…Earl Watson has been a below average performer under George Karl (twice), Nate McMillan, Bob Hill, Hubie Brown, PJ Carlisemo…
Quit blaming the players faults on the coaching…they are not good players and their faults are all their own. Even if Damien has been told to be more of an offensive threat that doesn’t excuse him of how he is playing the game. At least Durant and Green’s performance can be chalked up to being new to the NBA and not knowing what shots they are good at and what ones they are not good at.
Damien and Earl know exactly how their game fits within the NBA…and they choose to play outside of that in an effort to look better…
Well first of all, I’d try to put the team in a position to win. I wouldn’t placate to rookies while berrating veterans publicly. I wouldn’t condone players taking ill-advised shots early in the shot clock.
- Don’t ever have to worry about that happening with Earl or Damien..they need 15 seconds to dribble the ball before they shoot.
January 10th, 2008 at 12:59 pm
Damien and Earl were never the whipping boys of this forum until this year.
I believe both got substantial criticism in this forum last season. Maybe I just dreamed it, but I remember numerous threads in this forum last season the turned to ripping Watson and Wilkins to shreds.
January 10th, 2008 at 1:03 pm
Hey guys, sorry for the off topic request: does anyone know where I can find cumulative +/- stats for the whole season? Thanks in advance for the help.
January 10th, 2008 at 1:06 pm
“I think our coaching staff is fostering that mentality in players like Wilkins and Watson and that is why those players have been exceptionally poor this year. ”
Maybe. I don’t know if the coaching staff is necessarily telling W&W to play that way. But they certainly aren’t doing much about it. Remember the ouroborous post from a while back? it’s similar to that. Chicken or the egg.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ouroboros
I’m slightly more inclined to put the blame on the roster though, seeing as this is the 3rd coach in a row that couldn’t set a rotation or a direction with these players. The difference between the starters & the bench is pretty slim, not in a good way and it’s difficult to put together a 5-man unit that doesn’t completely suck on one end of the floor or the other.
Thankfully there’s only about a month until the trade deadline. At this point addition by subtraction might actually make this team more watchable.
January 10th, 2008 at 1:07 pm
Sam K, try 82games.com
January 10th, 2008 at 1:10 pm
“Damien and Earl were never the whipping boys of this forum until this year.”
I’m not sure Earl has ever -not- been a subject of criticism.
January 10th, 2008 at 1:16 pm
I’m not sure Earl has ever -not- been a subject of criticism.
- Hmmm, I consider this a dubious statement…
January 10th, 2008 at 1:21 pm
BS. Damien and Earl were never the whipping boys of this forum until this year. Earl Watson outplayed Ridnour last year and earned the starting job from another mediocre guard. I don’t think anyone had much of a right to criticize Damien’s play in the past few years, we were getting a good deal for what we were paying for him.
- This just isn’t true…even the comment that Watson outplayed Ridnour isn’t as true as you think…Ridnour still had a higher PER…
- We are not getting a good deal for what Damien makes…he isn’t performing above replacement level. That’s like saying that Willie Bloomquist doesn’t matter cause he doesn’t make much money…its still a waste of resources…
January 10th, 2008 at 1:23 pm
““Damien and Earl were never the whipping boys of this forum until this year.”
I’m not sure Earl has ever -not- been a subject of criticism.”
He certainly has, but now he’s the whipping boy. Where’s Luke “when he gets back” Ridnour in this discussion of “unserviceable” players. Earl’s criticism was always met with the other ugly truth. Same with the Weezy, Collison debate. It goes both ways.
“Quit blaming the players faults on the coaching…they are not good players and their faults are all their own.
You see this shows that you’re arguing against me, as opposed to arguing against my point. You must have some issues there, because clearly you’re not making any sense.
If these players are truly as bad as you make them out be, then they wouldn’t be on the damn floor each and every game. That’s the simple truth. I don’t hear you bitching incessantly about Gelebale, and yet he can’t crack the rotation. I don’t hear you bitching incessantly about West, and yet he’s pretty much fallen out of the running for point guard. Luke Ridnour, well let’s just say they aren’t in any hurry to get his
career 41% shooting, no-defense playing ass back on the floor.
January 10th, 2008 at 1:25 pm
So what is it Myk, are they holding a gun to PJ’s head? Is PJ so worried about being choked again that he’s afraid to provide just a little destructive criticism? Do players get to determine who’s should get playing time and who shouldn’t?
January 10th, 2008 at 1:32 pm
He certainly has, but now he’s the whipping boy. Where’s Luke “when he gets back” Ridnour in this discussion of “unserviceable” players. Earl’s criticism was always met with the other ugly truth. Same with the Weezy, Collison debate. It goes both ways.
- There is no point about talking about Ridnour is this debate because the discussion is whether Earl is a serviceable player…and he is not…quit trying to point in the argument in a direction because you can’t support your original argument.
That was always the case when ever the Luke/Earl debate came up…I’m not really a Ridnour fan…it just always amazed me that people could say that Watson is an ok player.
If these players are truly as bad as you make them out be, then they wouldn’t be on the damn floor each and every game. That’s the simple truth.
- Ummm, your argument is flawed in the sense that you are arguing that the coaching staff only plays players who “deserve” to play. Just because a player plays does not necessarily imply they deserve to play…its correlation not causation.
I don’t hear you bitching incessantly about West, and yet he’s pretty much fallen out of the running for point guard. Luke Ridnour, well let’s just say they aren’t in any hurry to get his
career 41% shooting, no-defense playing ass back on the floor.
- Oh you mean that Luke Ridnour who has never had a year with a lower PER than Watson in that same year…hmmm…
So what is it Myk, are they holding a gun to PJ’s head? Is PJ so worried about being choked again that he’s afraid to provide just a little destructive criticism? Do players get to determine who’s should get playing time and who shouldn’t?
- So…is the argument that PJ is an idiot not valid?? Regardless, All things considered, I’m still not sure how this is proving that Watson is a “serviceable” player…if the PG list was comprised of Earl Watson, Steven Hawking and Verne Troyer…would that some how make Watson more serviceable?
Other players on the team have no bearing on a players ability to perform…not a hard concept to understand.
January 10th, 2008 at 1:49 pm
Man if you really think that my argument in all of this revolves around “Earl Watson is a serviceable player” then you are even more egotistical than I thought. You got hung up on that, and like I said, you have a twisted sense of semantics, so whatever.
” Ummm, your argument is flawed in the sense that you are arguing that the coaching staff only plays players who “deserve” to play. Just because a player plays does not necessarily imply they deserve to play…its correlation not causation”
I will repeat what I’ve said in the past here, you are the last person on this board that should be throwing out words like “cause” and “correlation”. You might even want to shy away from words like “because”. You do not know argument, you’re just an irrationaly argumentative, fallacy-spewing ass.
But back to my point, which I think I’ve made pretty damn clear, but I’ll summarize for those with a short attention span:
I think that Earl Watson and Damien Wilkins could be more responsible with the ball and in their basketball decision making. Obviously “more” is a relative term, but I think it’s fair to say that we’ve all seen these players playing with a greater sense of accountbility in the past.
It is a coaches job to get the most out of their players. Sometimes this means instructing them to do less. If a player is not helping the team and there’s a better option, it’s the coaches job to recognize this and fix the problem to his abililty.
I don’t think that Damien or Watson have been held accountable to even a level that Bob Hill would have demanded so far this year. They have never played with such reckless abandon as they have this year, IMO. So therefore I place the blame on the coaching staff for either not recognizing bad players when they coach them, and giving them a disproportionate amount of playing time, or for not leading the players in a positive direction with regards to their game and or inefficiencies.
If you disagree with that, fine. But don’t creat little straw man arguments like Myk, because it’s a waste of all of our time.
January 10th, 2008 at 1:52 pm
I think Earl has been quite servicable as a point guard this year. However, he does go on sprees of jacking up shots. I think he is pressing in the sense that he doesn’t just want to be a guy dribbling the ball up court and handing it off to the jump shooter. Its understandable. This is the season to experiment.
January 10th, 2008 at 1:52 pm
By the way, thanks Steve for the Ouroboros Wiki link. Very cool word.
January 10th, 2008 at 1:56 pm
I thought Delonte played a pretty good game if you don’t count his horrible looking shot. What happened? The last two games his misses have been bad. Clanking layups hard of the back of the backboard and rim? Hitting sides of backboards? He kind of did the same thing last year while he was coming back from injury.
I like that he had 7 boards and 5 assists and 3 steals though. Though I’m sure people will argue those are garbage stats which is bogus.
January 10th, 2008 at 1:58 pm
It is a coaches job to get the most out of their players. Sometimes this means instructing them to do less. If a player is not helping the team and there’s a better option, it’s the coaches job to recognize this and fix the problem to his abililty.
- So the fact that each player has had 3+ coaches and never been league average players does not call into question their abilities? It is the coach’s fault that they are doing the same thing that they’ve done throughout their career? Go look in game threads from last year…Watson’s “ability” to play PG has always been called into question…he just got a free pass beause of his supposed defensive ability.
Balloholic Says:
Earl Watson took 7 shots, one more than Kurt Thomas. Yes they’re bad, but I think it’s ridiculous to think that this team would be better simply without them. Earl Watson has always been a serviceable reserve point guard. Damien Wilkins is perfectly fine as a backup swingman. Unfortunately we dont have anyone better to fill those roles, simple as that. Hell, as much as people are complaining about Wilkins he’s still better than Green at this point, and Green’s starting.
- The items in bold are not true statements…unless you believe that players that have never been even league average are “perfectly fine”
January 10th, 2008 at 2:01 pm
Jacking up terrible shots is not as bad as turning the ball over at a high rate. So far, Luke in the past and Earl this season have been pretty good with keeping their number of turnovers at a reasonable rate. I think Durant’s turnover issues can be attributed to a lack of strength. Most of Kevin’s turnovers come from what 82games.com refers to as ball-handling turnovers.
Jeff Green’s turnover problems are a little bit more difficult to explain as he has rarely been in a position to handle the ball or been a focalpoint for this team offensively. Perhaps trying to determine the position that Jeff will play in the future is creating uncertainty in Jeff’s head as to what he should do when does get the ball.
January 10th, 2008 at 2:01 pm
Wow Myk, you should be ashamed of that pathetic response.
January 10th, 2008 at 2:05 pm
I think Earl has been quite servicable as a point guard this year. However, he does go on sprees of jacking up shots. I think he is pressing in the sense that he doesn’t just want to be a guy dribbling the ball up court and handing it off to the jump shooter. Its understandable.
- Why is this understandable??
January 10th, 2008 at 2:07 pm
The Sonics are indeed now the #1 turnover team in the NBA. Congratulations.
January 10th, 2008 at 2:10 pm
What is interesting about Watson is that he is playing the same exact amount of minutes this year as last year…and he is actually shooting a better % from the field and from 3pt line and has more assists…
Two coaches..strikingly similar performance…guess it might not be the coaches fault..
January 10th, 2008 at 2:11 pm
Wow Myk, you should be ashamed of that pathetic response.
- There is something inaccurate with the things I said in that last post…I don’t get it…your argument isn’t valild
January 10th, 2008 at 2:15 pm
Nice one-man rampage you’ve been on here today, Ballo. I agree with everything you said.
Whether it’s the crappy role players that everyone here hates, or it’s the untouchable golden children, the players are jacking shots by offensive design. PJ & Westhead are to blame. It seems so clear and obvious that the only explanation for some of the counter opinions is that folks are simply so blinded by hate that they can’t see the truth.
January 10th, 2008 at 2:16 pm
hi, THE problem is that neither sees themselves as reserves. With that in mind, think if them as being pushed to the bench by Durant and Green (in Wilkins’ case), and next year’s rookie pg (replacing Watson).
Servicable, or not, they chuck the ball more coming off the bench, and are not starter material.
January 10th, 2008 at 2:21 pm
Whether it’s the crappy role players that everyone here hates, or it’s the untouchable golden children, the players are jacking shots by offensive design. PJ & Westhead are to blame. It seems so clear and obvious that the only explanation for some of the counter opinions is that folks are simply so blinded by hate that they can’t see the truth.
- I’ve commented countless times that our offensive sets have been downright horrible. However, that doesn’t mean that it is some how making Watson or Wilkins worse players…they are playing just like they’ve always played. If Mike D’Antoni or some other offensive mastermind was here they still wouldn’t be serviceable players
January 10th, 2008 at 2:22 pm
Thanks DT.
Maybe next time I should take a page out of your book and make my point in a couple nice, concise paragraphs rather than blow half my work day bickering with Myk.
January 10th, 2008 at 2:22 pm
So, if this blog represented the media establishment with respect to politics, Kevin Durant and Jeff Green would be receiving the Obama kid-gloves treatment. Earl and Damien are still trying to find their voices, so to speak.
I tend to disagree with those that Durant is taking bad shots. Star players take bad shots all the time. The difference is that they hit bad shots. There’s the other argument that Durant takes too many jump shots. I think a comparison between Durant and other SGs in the NBA would reveal that he’s not taking any more jump shots per game than any your typical SG. The difference is that he’s not hitting the jump shot particularly efficiently.
The turnover issue is another story. I disagree with the notion that the whole team deserves to be equally criticized for the turnover issue. As AK and I pointed out, the three primary culprits for the turnover problems are clearly Delonte West, Jeff Green, and Kevin Durant.
January 10th, 2008 at 2:58 pm
“Earl Watson has always been a serviceable point guard.”–Balloholic.
What is a “serviceable point guard”? We have three guys, and we have to chose who is going to be the backup next year if we do well in the draft. Does “serviceable” means dribbling into traffic jumping into the air and trying to kick the ball out to another player only to see it picked off and taken the other direction for a layup?
I was really optimistic that Watson would be able to grow as a player and play to his strengths, but, IMO he’s playing worse than he did when he won 50+ games with Memphis. If any of our 3 point guards is going to stay on this team, the person needs to play to their strengths.
I agree that you don’t want to throw out the baby with the bathwater, but, frankly Watson is just not playing very well right now. Silly articles in the Seattle PI entitled things like “Watson Gets The Point” are extreme exaggerations. He doesn’t get it, and he hasn’t improved enough yet. If Watson or Delonte stopped having freakish turnovers or poor shot selection and distributed the ball better, I’d be all for them staying on the team. They are both incredibly inconsistent for players who have been in the league for a few years.
January 10th, 2008 at 3:12 pm
actually James, the quote is “Earl Watson has always been a serviceable reserve point guard”.
See the difference?
January 10th, 2008 at 3:13 pm
“The Sonics are indeed now the #1 turnover team in the NBA. Congratulations.”–Alex Chan.
Exactly. Good point that the coaches need to take some of the blame, Tate. However, the coaches can’t play the game. I think that PJ needs to start benching guys who turn the ball over and don’t run the plays that are called. Somebody, I think it was Courtsense, recently posted that PJ’s been heard screaming, “Just run the (bleeping) play” at players. The players need to be professionals too. If they continue to lose respect for PJ because the team loses too many games, then the danger becomes that players just play to CTC (as Rasheed Wallace says)…instead of trying to win games.
January 10th, 2008 at 3:15 pm
I see the difference. What we need is a serviceable starter, and Watson is currently in the starting rotation. IMO Watson’s turnovers are negating his defensive abilities.
January 10th, 2008 at 3:24 pm
This isn’t directed towards you James, but I think it might be helpful in today’s discussion.
Serviceable: Capable of being used.
January 10th, 2008 at 3:53 pm
Saying someone is “servicable” is a nice way of saying you don’t suck that bad but you aren’t very good.
January 10th, 2008 at 3:54 pm
“Whether it’s the crappy role players that everyone here hates, or it’s the untouchable golden children, the players are jacking shots by offensive design. PJ & Westhead are to blame.”
So what’s the explanation for PJ screaming “run the @$#^&*ing play” at least three or four times a game?
I don’t think PJs that great a coach … but I have a hard time believing that Earl Watson taking 1 or 2 35 footers a game with half the shot clock still left is by design.
January 10th, 2008 at 4:05 pm
“I don’t think PJs that great a coach … but I have a hard time believing that Earl Watson taking 1 or 2 35 footers a game with half the shot clock still left is by design.”
Well you’re obviously intentionally exagerating a little bit, but I know what you’re saying. I’d say 1 or 2 23 footers per game or so. It really doesn’t make a difference when Earl’s the one shooting it though. I respect that, and I see the exact same thing. What really irks me though, is that this behavior doesn’t warrant a verbal tirade from PJ, as opposed to say Wally getting a little overconfident with his shot near the end of a game.
I’ve never seen PJ get visually upset after Watson, Wilkins or anyone else jacks up an early shot. As Dick Tate said, I think that some of it really is by design. I think that this is the kind of offense you get when you have Paul Westhead’s philosophy behind a bunch of poor/mediocre shooters.
January 10th, 2008 at 4:09 pm
Frozen I agree with your assessment of the soft zone defense. I can’t count how many times I’ve cussed out the zone in front of the TV or on this blog. Players are just getting lost and rotating improperly when the other team is moving the ball well. Either guys are overpursuing when the passes are made or they just aren’t reacting at all when a guy catches and shoots.
It wouldn’t be bad if PJ just used primarily man-to-man then switched it up to zone for a FEW possessions on the fly just to force the other team to adjust quickly…
January 10th, 2008 at 4:13 pm
“What really irks me though, is that this behavior doesn’t warrant a verbal tirade from PJ, as opposed to say Wally getting a little overconfident with his shot near the end of a game.”
I’m behind you 100% with that Ballo. Why the hell does it look like PJ has a vendetta out for wally when he misses an honest jumper and he treats wilkins and watson like they got 2nd place in the special olympics?!?! (btw no offense to the special olympics, I know these two guys would never make a silver-winning team). Seriously when will this coaching staff crack the whip on crappy players who go out there and contribute to the success of our opponents?!? I think watson needs a message, I propose that we roll out a starting lineup of:
Wally
Durant
Green
Collison
Thomas
so that the terrible W-twins on this team understand that they still have to earn a starting spot and not just get the security the don’t deserve just because we have a couple injuries.
/end rant
January 10th, 2008 at 4:17 pm
“So what’s the explanation for PJ screaming “run the @$#^&*ing play” at least three or four times a game?
I don’t think PJs that great a coach … but I have a hard time believing that Earl Watson taking 1 or 2 35 footers a game with half the shot clock still left is by design.”
This is true. Watson NEVER looks to give the ball up early and give everyone else touches. How can you trust that your teammate will share the rock once you pass it if he constantly jacks up shots without making one pass? I don’t like Rid anymore than Watson, but atleast he gives the ball up early and often and doesn’t dribble out the clock. I’d like to see Earl do this once in awhile instead of driving into traffic, jumping in the air to make a pass only to have it deflected to the other team for a turnover.
January 10th, 2008 at 4:17 pm
Perhaps we really do have a soft, uncapable roster AND an out to lunch coaching staff. Makes for ugly reabuilding (can we say expansion?) style basketball. A more positive way to look at it is we are only a couple of all-stars and a couple more good starters from being a legit team…
January 10th, 2008 at 4:50 pm
“A more positive way to look at it is we are only a couple of all-stars and a couple more good starters from being a legit team… ”
You can say that for pretty much every single team…
January 10th, 2008 at 5:15 pm
Phenom said: “Luke will get out of the doghouse and somebody else will move to the end of bench.”
Luke isn’t in the doghouse. He’s in the panelbeater’s.
January 10th, 2008 at 6:18 pm
Petro did all that with ZERO turnovers? Geez.
January 10th, 2008 at 6:29 pm
I have always thought that Petro isn’t a center, but he might be a pretty good pf. Maybe not a starter, but coming off the bench in rotation he could be useful. Plenty of teams pick up big guys that ride the bench, I think he’s got more to him than that.
He can hit that elbow shot, he just need more coached time learning team defense.
January 10th, 2008 at 6:36 pm
Petro also needs to work on his rebounding. Petro is one of the worst rebounders on the team.
January 10th, 2008 at 6:36 pm
As I have said last night was a pure example of PJ being outcoached. He is puts way to much time into the officiating, talking to the refs yelling at the refs, when he should be focused more on his players or the task at hand. The more and more I watch this team play defense I am trying to figure the concept behind it. Am I the only on seeing these guys playing without a hand up, if they do switch and there is a mismatch no ability to adjust to it..Instead of stepping through the screen they chase the shooter, which the Celtics do so well step through the screen, and play your man. The post men do not 3 quater front, they play side step D which is a mystery to me. They do not create any havoc in the passing lanes, or deny to make bad passes happen. My point is I here this shit about how hard the Sonics are working defensively which at times they are, they are playing the wrong style of D which is wasting alot of time..
January 10th, 2008 at 6:39 pm
Petro needs a one way ticket to France where he would make a team in the A division, and would not be the go to guy even on those teams. Sorry guys he is absolutely terrible, terrible..
January 10th, 2008 at 6:53 pm
TukwilaSonic Says:
January 10th, 2008 at 4:17 pm
“Perhaps we really do have a soft, uncapable roster AND an out to lunch coaching staff. Makes for ugly reabuilding (can we say expansion?) style basketball. A more positive way to look at it is we are only a couple of all-stars and a couple more good starters from being a legit team… ”
WE HAVE A WINNER!
TukwilaSonic, you are the proud winner of a LINK TO A COOL-ASS WORD ON WIKIPEDIA! (see above to collect your prize) Yay!
———————
Ballo said: “…snarky prick…” Wow Ballo! You too win an award for MOST GNARLY POINTED INSULT of today’s thread! Most bitchin’!
I haven’t seen a good all-out war thread like this one since… the PI days. It’s been a fun read!
January 10th, 2008 at 7:58 pm
beantown, I do not think he is a goto guy, but the rest of you comment is bullshit.
January 10th, 2008 at 8:14 pm
Thank you may I have another
January 10th, 2008 at 8:17 pm
Yeah, Balloholic did a damn good job of defending Earl Watson — who’s a useful role player in the right situation, as he was with the Memphis Grizzlies — and, moreover, avoided coddling Kevin Durant throughout today’s debate. It’s irritating that folks give Durant a free pass for being a stat stuffing turnover machine, while at the same time berating Watson and Damien Wilkins in an overzealous manner.
If y’all want to bitch about players being selfish high volume shooters who’ve got a chucker mentality, then Durant has to top the list — just like he did during his tenure with the Texas Longhorns — otherwise, you guys will come off looking like biased fools. Yet, irrespective of Durant’s inefficient shooting percentage (FG%: 40.9%; eFG%: 44.4%; TSP: 50.8%), he’s got serious problems regarding pitiful rebounding numbers (Rebound Rate: 7.0), an abstention toward distributing the rock to his teammates, (Assist Ratio: 8.2), a propensity to commit turnovers (Turnover Ratio: 12.3), and an excessive role on offense (Usage Rate: 27.0).
Assist Ratio = (Assists x 100) / [FGA + (FTA x 0.44) + Assists + Turnovers]
Rebound Rate = (Rebounds x Team Minutes) / [Player Minutes x (Team Rebounds + Opponent Rebounds)]
Turnover Ratio = (Turnovers x 100) / [FGA + (FTA x 0.44) + Assists + Turnovers]
Usage Rate = {[FGA + (FTA x 0.44) + (Assist Ratio x 0.33) + Turnover Ratio] x 40 x League Pace} / (Minutes x Team Pace)
Hell, that doesn’t even account for Durant’s defensive ineptitude (Points Allowed Per 100 Possessions: 111.4; Net Points Allowed Per 100 Possessions: +10.2; eFG% Allowed: 50.9%; Net eFG% Allowed: +5.8%) or his negative effect on the team (Net +/- Production: -12.1; Net Points Per 100 Possessions: -11.4). Shit, I don’t mean to burst anyone’s bubble and destroy their blinded optimism; however, it’s goddamn tough for me to get excited over a taller, thinner hybrid of George Gervin and Tracy McGrady—especially since that isn’t a winning skill set!
January 10th, 2008 at 8:34 pm
i also think petro will be a “servicable player.despite the omens(beantown)harsh pronouncement to the contrary.id bet that when he becomes a free agent he be snapped up.hes young fairly agile and has a nice shot for a big man.the nba is replete with similar projects.im also betting that there will be a trade or two come the deadline.especially if the sonics keep losing and losing with bad attitude.the front offence cant really want this attitude to go to far and since they cant fire pj now ,a player or two will have to go to wake the players up.
January 10th, 2008 at 8:59 pm
Mr bakeman why must you be so jealous, c’mon your a clown, I could ask you a simple question about the Sonics and you would f-up the answer, guess why Bakeman you are another know it all, who played on his 7th grade team and still thinks you got screwed out of a free ride. Now your a hero wannabe on a blog, what happened big guy, coach didn’t like you, he catch you with you sisters clothes on. Thats ok I know you a s-talking little bitty. Bakeman ever dunk it, no not a donut you fat f-,a basketball. The way you talk you must have some game, or did you get cut, and have your parents meet with the coach, to discuss how bad you really suck.. Have you ever played Bakeman, or do you think I wish I wasn’t such a looser in high school because I could have been the star.. Do you know who I am Bakeman, I know you say you don’t care but do you know, c’mon who am I Bakeman. I am someone who would take you to the hoop even at my age and make you pay for all of your little bitty comments on this blog, clown..
January 10th, 2008 at 9:02 pm
Petro does not have a nice shot, go to the game early and watch him shoot around he does not have touch, and his hands point in when he shoots. His turnaround jumper is off balance, and he never squares himself to the basket, he is always pushed off balance.. A nice shot means you are capable from 10 - 15 feet, he is not even close to that..
January 10th, 2008 at 9:11 pm
Beantown, any scouting report on Eric Gordon? Is this kid the real deal?
January 10th, 2008 at 9:13 pm
Bakeboy what skills does Petro have in the post. What are his go to moves, what does he do that will help another team. I don’t want to hear he will be a good role player, and all that bs. What skills does he have in the post. If you answer I will not laugh that hard..
January 10th, 2008 at 9:37 pm
do not call me boy
January 10th, 2008 at 9:39 pm
Eric Gordon is a good player, similar to Rose. Both very strong with the ball and very athletic. Gordon has a great move to the basket, but at 6′4 may play some 2 guard and don’t know if his jumper is a 2 guard jumper.. Tough though, I like him, I like Rose a little bit better, good shooter..
January 10th, 2008 at 9:42 pm
BOY!!!!!! Bakeboy…. BOY!!!!!!!! CLOWN!!!!!!!! Which one you like want to mess with me Bake BOY.. Whats up wannabe BOY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Did you play.. Never answered DID YOU PLAY BOY!!!!!!!!!!!!
January 10th, 2008 at 9:47 pm
Play one on one BOY, c’mon just me and you. No one has to know lets play how bad I wipe you all over the place, c’mon up for it.
January 10th, 2008 at 9:53 pm
how can anybody say what skills a Sonic player has in the post, the ball never gets there, that said, he does move from the block/back to the basket to the center of the paint, makes space, turns square and gets off a jump shot that needs work on the release. He can also pass out of that move to the weakside well enough, but he’s not a post player, never said he was, I did say he had a pretty good shot from the elbow (again his release needs work).
He turns the ripe old age of 22 in just two weeks.
To say that anybody that’s that young will never be is shortsited.
January 10th, 2008 at 9:55 pm
C’mon man, there’s no need for this. We all get zinged once and a while on these boards. Just take it and move on.
January 10th, 2008 at 9:57 pm
You are just sad.
January 10th, 2008 at 9:59 pm
I’ve seen what I think is improvement in Petro’s game over the season so far. Maybe I’m seeing things, but I think he has gotten better as he gets the minutes. He seems to TRY out there, which is more than I can say for some of the other guys. I cringe when I see him with the ball, but he’s actually making some of those shots now. True, he’s got a long ways to go. This is a lost year anyways, might as well let the young guys get their run now.
January 10th, 2008 at 10:03 pm
“Serviceable: Capable of being used.”–Balloholic.
Service-able: capable of being sent off into the service (army)?
Slightly better than adequate?
Might not lose you the game?
Anyway, I think right now Watson hasn’t really lived up to his potential. I don’t think he plays to his strengths well enough. At his best, I think he could be like Eric Snow was at his best, but, maybe a better defender. That would be more serviceable. Right now his shot selection and turnovers make him more of a liability IMO. I’d love to see him play to his potential, but, right now I’m skeptical that he’ll get there.
January 10th, 2008 at 10:04 pm
I agree he’s no center with his skillset so far. And he needs to work on rebounding bigtime. A PF in the making? Give him a couple more years?
OT/ just found this article on Durant:
http://www.hoopshype.com/interviews/durant_mustafic.htm
January 10th, 2008 at 10:05 pm
So at 7′0 where is he going to play, he can’t play the baseline because he can’t hit the jumper. His shot from the elbow is off balance, he shoots off to the side. He has no jump hook, no drop step towards the basket, he drops to the baseline(wrong) and turns into the defender. I have watched him, and I will tell you he will not help any team at 22 nor wil he at 27 because he will not be in this league. His footspeed is terrible from side to side, and lacks general know how in the post.. Again he is terrible, no skills what so ever. Another project from Europe who will be going home soon…
January 10th, 2008 at 10:11 pm
No I am actually one of the happiest people I know, and live life to its fullest. It’s when I come across people like you I have to stoop to their level of play. If I did reveal who I am you would google me and say things about my family, my playing days, and to be honest I could do withpout any of that bs. Thats why I remain anonymous, because of punks like you..
January 10th, 2008 at 10:22 pm
Well, at the very least Petro is making himself more tradeable by having a once per season performance.
January 10th, 2008 at 10:22 pm
All right, I’m getting tired of this shit.
As it is, “Beantown” has provided us with irrefutable evidence that an athletic marvel can attend any academically acclaimed university of his choice in the United States of America—even if he possesses an intelligence level that’s inferior to my 15-year-old mentally challenged sister.
Anyhow, there’s more harsh remarks where that came from you over-the-hill, washed-up has-been; thus, it’s in your best interest to stop taking unwarranted shots at people. For whatever it’s worth old man, I can hurl insults with the best of ‘em. If you’re going to dish out hate, “Beantown,” then you better be able to take it.
According to the old adage, you’ve occasionally got to fight fire with fire; that’s exactly what I’m doing here.
January 10th, 2008 at 10:23 pm
so far? Speedcat, he will never be, he turns 22 in two weeks and he’s done forever, didn’t you read the opinions stated as fact, Petro might as well quit now, while I watch Brian Skinner get playing time on the Suns, we should all just go through the careers of 22 year old on other team’s benches, and email those team’s front offices and let them know that if a player isn’t a goto guy then cut them lose, it’s over for them, they will never, ever learn anything for the rest of their lives.
January 10th, 2008 at 10:27 pm
thanks for the name calling, happy guy but no happy talk, priceless.
January 10th, 2008 at 10:29 pm
Bakeboy are you fat??? Out of shape??? You have let yourself go ha????
January 10th, 2008 at 10:34 pm
Bakeboy what have you contributed to the basketball world, not the blog world, the hoop world. You like others will not answer the simple question did you play?? Be honest don’t lie bakeboy, if you were the water boy or the mascot that does not count, I mean laced them up with a couple of officials, and play this game.
January 10th, 2008 at 10:35 pm
Luke and Earl are parts of trade rumors:
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/sonics/2004111025_soniglance07.html
Thank God, we aren’t interested in Smush Parker according to the Yahoo sports site…
January 10th, 2008 at 10:38 pm
The level of flaming on this blog has reached an all new high…
January 10th, 2008 at 10:39 pm
I don’t know you, you don’t know me, and that’s just the way it is.
January 10th, 2008 at 10:45 pm
One thing Petro improved on from last year and this past summer league, was staying out of foul trouble. You can point to this as the reason why he was so useless. In limited minutes this year, he has shown that he can be a decent option off the bench. He’s rebounded pretty well, blocked some shots, and hit outside jumpers. Last night he showed signs of being able to play around the rim with a couple of scoop shots and a dunk off an alley oop.
Besides Petro’s rookie year and this year, we haven’t seen enough of what Petro can do when he’s not in foul trouble. Something that worries me about him is he still looks lost defensively as I said in another thread. His help defense on the dribble drive is horrid. I’d hang onto him for another year…
January 10th, 2008 at 10:47 pm
ajw you played so you can understand alot about his game than I gave you credit for, and if you played all your life even more credit given. The only reason I ask someone if they played is your understanding of the game is more of someone who thinks they know what it’s like, or wonder what it is like. Should everyone who has never played post, no that is not what I am saying. My point is if you have played and know what it feels like to take a foul shot with no time on the clock, or make a game winning steal, block a shot, rebound then fill the lane on the break. Those are things that are understood as a player which helps the understanding of the game.. So awj you answered my question and I can respect that. It’s all in fun my man..
January 10th, 2008 at 10:49 pm
Just trade both Luke and Earl, sign Dee Brown from the Euro leagues, and call it a night.
January 10th, 2008 at 10:51 pm
I know we don’t know eachother, you don’t want to know me. awj played he knows what it’s like to play how about you. You are not answering the question. I played, awj played, how about you. What position??
January 10th, 2008 at 10:53 pm
I hear ya beantown. All I’m saying is we haven’t seen enough of what Petro can really do when he’s not forced to sit on the bench because of foul trouble. Maybe you’ve seen him in practice and shoot arounds and can base your opinion on that. But based on the games I’ve seen him play, I’m not convinced yet that he can’t develop into a decent bench player. Last night he was never in foul trouble, so he got a chance to score the ball. It’s too bad he blows on defense, but then again so does the majority of the team.
January 10th, 2008 at 10:53 pm
what every 21 year old player needs is a new coach every year.
January 10th, 2008 at 11:00 pm
Johan Petro biggest downfall is his inability to grasp the basic fundamentals of being an interior player. On offense, Petro lacks any back-to-the-basket moves down on the low block; plus, he rarely squares up against his man on defense and almost never crashes the glass by boxing out opponents for rebounds.
Yet, aside from Petro’s flaws, could potentially become a useful high-post player off of the bench. Once he works on his shooting form by developing a smoother touch 15 feet away from the hoop, there’ll be a niche for him in the NBA.
All in all, Petro has the upside of Mark Blount and the downside of Brad Sellers; however, the final outcome for him won’t depend on just a progression in skills, but it’s also based on a desperately needed increase in his work ethic.
January 10th, 2008 at 11:01 pm
I have had a chance to see him at a couple of times at practice with Sam, his side to side mobility is so slow. I saw him doing a drill where there is a ball put on each block and you have to go sid to side and pick up the ball and do a power move to the basket. He was like a fish out of water, he is suppose to be a great kid, but he lacks so much that is needed to be effective..
January 10th, 2008 at 11:04 pm
why don’t you spend another hour insulting me and then ask me personal information. Ya, that’s the ticket.
January 10th, 2008 at 11:13 pm
So you didn’t play that’s ok I understand now what I am dealing with.. Thats not personal info just a simple yes I have played or no I haven’t played. So why again can’t you say No I have not played, I don’t have a clue what it’s like to take a layup, dribble around my back, play good defense. To bad Bakeboy you missed out on some great moments.. To say asking someone if they played a sport is personal your dodging the question my man..
January 10th, 2008 at 11:14 pm
hey, beantown…16-0!
January 10th, 2008 at 11:39 pm
So, beantown - can the Pats keep it going all the way? Better yet, can the Celtics beat Detroit or San Antonio in June?
January 10th, 2008 at 11:57 pm
gee and to think i coulda wasted the last 30 minutes watching bill o’reily,but no i had to spend it reading moronic posts by beantown while various other posters kiss ass or get hurt by this juvenile who thinks hes done something in life cause he can throw his big body around with a modicum of skill and now thinks that that entitles him to show us how poorly he did in interpersonal relations and also in beginning grammer.hey beantown.maybe you have done all the things youve submitted on your ‘posted resume’over the course of the last 2 months but do you have to be so damn boring?????
January 11th, 2008 at 12:01 am
“So why again can’t you say No I have not played, I don’t have a clue what it’s like to take a layup, dribble around my back, play good defense.”–beantown.
There’s a pretty big diversity of dudes who come to this site, beantown. Former players, fans, sports page junkies, little league coaches, businessmen, etc. Everybody’s got a right to an opinion, and every player has probably been schooled by somebody a few times in a career. Who schooled you?
January 11th, 2008 at 12:07 am
Petro makes shots in spite of bad form. I can accept the comment that he MIGHT make a decent backup 4, but I think 3rd string on a decent team is more realistic. Overseas is a possiblity as well.
I agree with AK as well that the exaggerating that goes on regarding the 2 Ws’ is overboard, and it actually makes it seem as if they don’t know the game. It’s easy to blast people, but to give an articulate, realistic rundown of what’s really going on is what gives credibility in my book. Not just coming on here blasting people over, and over. That doesn’t reflect knowledge of the game, or insight to our team. Moreover it reflects maturity level, and a lack of security in making ones point realistically. Sure, we all fall into emotional rants, but the cats who are doing it to death should check themselves imo…
January 11th, 2008 at 12:09 am
Petro needs to learn to boxout as well…
January 11th, 2008 at 12:19 am
“It’s irritating that folks give Durant a free pass for being a stat stuffing turnover machine, while at the same time berating Watson and Damien Wilkins in an overzealous manner.”–AK
Nobody gets a free pass. IMO KD does need to improve his shot selection and work on his game. However, he does have the green light to take shots to an extent…probably more than Wilkins and Watson. Plus, there’s the fact that KD is a rookie while those guys are supposed vets. I would expect KD to hit the “rookie wall” at times during the season and struggle, but, Watson is the kind of guy who needs to play to his potential and be the glue that creates some kind of chemistry for the team as the starting point guard. He just hasn’t met expectations IMO.
IMO players should be judged by their performance and by how many years they have been in the league.
January 11th, 2008 at 1:03 am
On a lighter note, here’s a trade proposal that’d quickly retool the Seattle Supersonics.
http://tinyurl.com/22ohbb
For old time’s sake, it even includes “The Three Musketeers” (i.e., Peter Fehse, Yotam Halperin, & Paccelis Morlende).
Dammit, Fehse rules the world!
http://i11.tinypic.com/720buis.jpg
As an explination for my obsession with Fehse, let it be known that I look like a cross between him, Jon Heder, and Martin Starr. It’s a crazy combination—there’s no denyin’ it!
January 11th, 2008 at 1:07 am
“Petro makes shots in spite of bad form. I can accept the comment that he MIGHT make a decent backup 4, but I think 3rd string on a decent team is more realistic. Overseas is a possiblity as well.”
Not going to hate on Petro. He is what he is. He had a great game in a blowout loss the other night.
But to your point…….its not really confidence inspiring when a 7 footer falls away on his jumpers (also not cool when a 7 footer is a jump shooter) whether someone is on him or not. I boo that.
Vin Baker liked to pull the unneccessary fall away too. Lay off the booze P-tro.
January 11th, 2008 at 1:14 am
FYI: Just because you can play the game……it doesn’t mean you know the game. Some of the greatest players in history have been piss poor coaches (cough….Isiah). On the other end……role players/non NBA players have become great coaches. To hang on to your past is pretty sad. Bruce Springsteen…….”Glory Days”.
In terms of basketball discussion……..lets not act like how good you were means a damn thing. Granted if you played the game you can see more into it. There are some things that you can’t learn from a book or stats.
All of this is spoken like a true stiff on the court. I can play…..but I don’t need to prove that.
January 11th, 2008 at 1:16 am
“So, beantown - can the Pats keep it going all the way? Better yet, can the Celtics beat Detroit or San Antonio in June?”
Beantown 3-peat?
January 11th, 2008 at 2:27 am
beantown Says:
If I did reveal who I am you would google me and say things about my family, my playing days, and to be honest I could do withpout any of that bs. Thats why I remain anonymous, because of punks like you..
You already told us who you are. Your narcissistic, self-important ego couldn’t keep it a secret. That’s why you kept giving us clue after clue until you left little doubt.
http://www.nba.com/media/magic/turner2.jpg
January 11th, 2008 at 2:56 am
“You already told us who you are. Your narcissistic, self-important ego couldn’t keep it a secret. That’s why you kept giving us clue after clue until you left little doubt.” {Dick Tate}
Dick Tate (a.k.a., Anon. #12) FTW!
Good Times,
Anthony King
P.S.: I’ve forgot to thank you supporting me during the whole B. Rob. debacle.
January 11th, 2008 at 3:04 am
And…
http://www.wooster.edu/news/images/0506/CuthbertWeb1.jpg
January 11th, 2008 at 3:21 am
Beantown can’t be Jeff Turner. From a google search, it seems that Jeff Turner is currently employed by Lake Highland Preparatory School in Orlando.
January 11th, 2008 at 7:55 am
Its like this menace I agree with you, in order to discuss this game you don’t have to be a superstar. If you have played in an organized game yes it does give you alot more insight than if you never played. If you have never driven a car and think what it would be like, then wonder what it would be like. Then when you finally do drive that car you suddenly realize there is alot more going on than when you were wondering how it would be. Some guys I played with who were at best average players are great coaches, alot of them are better coaches than I could ever be, because they are students of the game, and are constantly looking to improve each area.. So no because I played does not mean I know it all, it does help though when explaining things or breaking things down. I can watch a guy in warm -ups and tell alot about his game..
January 11th, 2008 at 8:14 am
“Beantown can’t be Jeff Turner. From a google search, it seems that Jeff Turner is currently employed by Lake Highland Preparatory School in Orlando.” {ajw}
Yeah, it seems that you might be right about that.
My guess of Mark Acres wasn’t on the spot, and Jeff Turner is also off the mark. It’s tough to figure out “Beantown’s” idenity.
January 11th, 2008 at 9:11 am
Not tough at all you guys have done a pretty good job in figuring who I am, and I will say I did not see my name for a while on this blog, and now I do.. But who, some info is accurate some not so. I will say at least I can admitt that I played without it getting personal, and also can admitt that I type like a gorilla, but I can live with that, but yes I did play. Some people will not answer that simple question, because it’s personal, what a gd joke…
January 11th, 2008 at 9:24 am
“Some people will not answer that simple question, because it’s personal, what a gd joke…”
I don’t understand why people won’t answer it, but I don’t feel that playing even at a somewhat organized level makes you absolutely more knowledgable. Take a guy like Stromile Swift, he’s carved out a 9 year or so career now and I’m pretty sure I understand pick and roll defense better than he does.
I think part of the reason you don’t get people to answer the question is that you tend berate someone before asking. Some people don’t feel like going there, now they could just lie and be done with it but to each thier own.
January 11th, 2008 at 9:28 am
Bottomline, Presti picked up Petro’s and Sene’s options. Either he thought they deserved more time to show development or he thinks some other GM will take them in some form of trade or that they fill backup and insurance roles adequately short-term. It is probably the later but we’ll find out.
You can put positive spin on Petro or negative spin.
If beantown is right then Presti’s move was either wrong or just a holding action.
January 11th, 2008 at 9:40 am
Playin does make you more knowlegable, people can think how it is to defend Shaq in the post, I have and its nothing like you could ever imagine. Again this is a blog should you be an all american to post, not at all. I have never played lacrosse, if I started talking about it from an inside look I am a fool. I can watch lacrosse and get the game, but to know what it feels like to get hit with that ball, and get nailed while trying to dcore I don’t have a clue, more than that I can admitt it. I suck in softball, still play and get lots of shit from my boys on being my size I can’t knock it out of the park everytime.. But when talking about hoop, thats where I come in, totally confident in explaining basketball to every level..
January 11th, 2008 at 10:03 am
For such a big guy you’ve got really thin skin, Beantown. You should learn some internet tough. If they were handing out Ts here you’d hardly ever seen the court.
January 11th, 2008 at 10:04 am
Playing at a competitive level is valuable. I admit I don’t have any of that. Playing at the very highest level can be very valuable. I’ll listen to basketball points made from that with respect. Though I might not always agree (and could be right or wrong in doing so, just using my prerogative to be a free man / fan).
Beantown said PJ was outcoached by Frank in this game and I’d agree with that. Most of PJ’s comments in press lately have been about player focus and effort and that hasn’t been strong enough but I am not sure if I recall him admitting to making key mistakes himself or needing to tweak the offense and defensive systems better. Or even talking a bullet once in awhile for the players, in fair recognition of his performance to date or for the affect of that. (If I am forgetting instances, you can remind me.) He says he might need to change the rotation- well, yeah, it is a continuous challenge but it is a big part of the job- so do it better.
January 11th, 2008 at 10:19 am
Wally and Wilkins don’t matter much but Durant does. Durant better personal shooting %, assists and turnover rate with Wally than Wilkins. And a team +/- that is only half as bad and team win % well more than twice as high.
But PJ so far went with Wilkins with Durant twice as much as Wally. For showcasing at Sam’s request or his own preferences about Wally being a bench scorer in place of Durant more than a vet teammate alongside him making it easier in as many minutes as possible. If Wally off the bench wasn’t leading to team winning much more than 25% I’d be making Durant’s personal minutes as good as possible, as winning as possible, to get him use to working with other scorers the right way.
January 11th, 2008 at 10:30 am
On another topic. Anyone watch the USC vs WSU game last night on Fox Sports? Impressions of Mayo and Weaver? I only caught the last minute and a half of the game……not much to see there.
Weaver is a big, defensive minded guard that I’d like to see the Sonics pick up for depth. If we can’t get Rose, Mayo would be someone I’d be interested in if his ego is in check. That Draft Express article the other day seems to sound like he’s alot more of a team player and that alot of his issues thus far have to do with Floyd’s system there at USC and the team around him.
Anyways, figured a change in topic for awhile couldn’t hurt.
January 11th, 2008 at 10:42 am
On a point Alex Chan made earlier Durant is clearly going inside more than Ray Allen did, a bit more than Richard Hamilton, about the same as Kobe.
V Carter is modestly higher. Wade who gets praise doing so (and punishment) way higher. Maybe Durant moves up to V Carter level with time and more strength.
(A number of good observations have been made by fans in this post, in my opinion.)
January 11th, 2008 at 10:46 am
Moffett now how should I respond to that, “beantown has thin skin” I actually am pretty tough which is irrelevant when dealing with people like yourself. I have had things thrown at me while playing, have had fans come directly in my face and tell me my mother is a …… and my kids are……… So when I read your it makes me chuckle, as anyone I ever played with would not agree with you my man I made it in this league because I had toughness. Ok question for you who is the best guard Mayo, Rose, Gordon, and why…
January 11th, 2008 at 10:49 am
Yeah Crow, I remember PJ after the NJ game saying that it wasn’t a matter of Xs and Os, but more the players’ motivation.
January 11th, 2008 at 11:13 am
I’ve assumed that beantown was getting a little payback for the grief player’s get from fans. But I’d prefer both sides got and give respect as much as possible.
January 11th, 2008 at 11:21 am
Durant at SG is a lot like Durant at SF at least in terms of his offense but not necessarily on defense or team effect. I can only find 20 minutes all season when Durant played with for sure 2 guards (West, Watson, Ridnour). Now injuries have made that less possible but just 20 minutes? In a experimental season? When Presti said West was important and PJ says West might be more of a SG? These 20 minutes the team basically broke even which is way better than the big losses Durant aveages on team +/- at SG. Maybe they are saving this for next season, ok, whatever. I’d prefer to see it some more this season.
January 11th, 2008 at 11:25 am
So Durant looks significantly better on paper at shooting guard?
January 11th, 2008 at 11:38 am
So Durant looks significantly better on paper at shooting guard?
I believe his statement was that the combination with Durant at SF was break even (+/-) wise, which was signficantly better than when Durant is at SG. Ergo his statment here…..
These 20 minutes the team basically broke even ,b.which is way better than the big losses Durant aveages on team +/- at SG,/b..
While 20 minutes is extreme small sample size, it does lend some credence to the voice that SF is a much better position for Durant right now and long term. I suspect, as Crow insinuates, that the lack of Durant playing the SF is strongly due to West’s injury problems this year.
January 11th, 2008 at 11:39 am
I sure screwed up that bolding attempt. How about another try….
These 20 minutes the team basically broke even which is way better than the big losses Durant aveages on team +/- at SG.
January 11th, 2008 at 11:43 am
Thanks for the clarification Frozen
January 11th, 2008 at 11:58 am
AK1984 Says:
My guess of Mark Acres wasn’t on the spot, and Jeff Turner is also off the mark. It’s tough to figure out “Beantown’s” idenity.
Unless Beantown gave us some bogus info, these are the clues that led me to my conclusion:
Played during the 80’s & 90’s, 10-year career, has a gold medal, played with Jordan but not in the NBA, spent some time in Europe:
That puts him on the ’84 Olympic Team while also eliminating these two players:
http://tinyurl.com/375pn4
January 11th, 2008 at 12:00 pm
Thanks for the clarification Frozen
No prob. Sometimes it can be challenging pulling out the key part burried in all the details Crow provides.
January 11th, 2008 at 12:06 pm
If PJ watches the film of the New Jersey game he realized how bad HE was outmatched. Sometimes motivation is hard to have when your loosing, but an effective game plan is something that should be brought to the table every game..
January 11th, 2008 at 12:53 pm
“While 20 minutes is extreme small sample size, it does lend some credence to the voice that SF is a much better position for Durant right now and long term. I suspect, as Crow insinuates, that the lack of Durant playing the SF is strongly due to West’s injury problems this year. ”
I would agree, although I suspect a showcase of Damien Wilkins might also be a contributing factor.
“Ok question for you who is the best guard Mayo, Rose, Gordon, and why… ”
Gordon is going to be a damn good player in the lg, but I prefer Rose. All things considered equal athleticism to any guard in the draft but can play PG. Rose reminds me of Payton a bit. Same overall skill base & weaknesses that GP had when he first came in.
Mayo on the other hand reminds me of Marbury, not in a good way … nice perimeter game already but seems to need teh ball in his hands to be effective … doesn’t always make the other guys on the floor better…I could see him also putting up superficially good counting stats but still not helping his team win.
One thing in Mayo’s corner is that he is playing against tough competition … Pac-10 is pretty damn solid this year.
Speaking of Pac-10 guards I like Darren Collison quite a bit… I think he’s an outstanding on ball defender, but not sure he’ll be able to get in the lane and finish at the NBA level or guard NBA 2s on the switches.
January 11th, 2008 at 12:59 pm
Frozen had it right while I was away. Sorry it didnt come thru clearly to you ballaholic. I know my writing is often dense and sometimes not as clear as desired because of that.
That 20 minutes is ridiculously small sample size… but it does also happen to show Durant defending well and winning his counterpart by a far larger margin than his norm at SG.
But the key to me is just a 20 minute test so far. I’d like to see 500 minutes more- this season. Green is being tested at 2 positions- do the same with Durant. Are they afraid it shows to be the same spot? Maybe. Right now things look better for Green personally at PF but better for team at SF.
January 11th, 2008 at 1:07 pm
Percy Allen had a post on his blog about how Durant and Green are not developing any chemistry with each other.
So a 7 footer that shoots jump shots is not cool? Well, I suppose Kevin Garnett is not cool under that standard because I cannot think of any 7-footer in the NBA that doesn’t take more jump shots that KG, with the exception of Dirk Nowitzki.
January 11th, 2008 at 1:10 pm
The last post should read “I cannot think of any 7-footer in the NBA that does take more jump shots” than Kevin Garnett. The point is that Kevin Garnett is a 7 footer that relies primarily on jump shooting to generate his offense. I consider KG to be pretty “cool.”
January 11th, 2008 at 1:29 pm
Ok question for you who is the best guard Mayo, Rose, Gordon, and why…
I like all three of them, Mayo more so after reading that article at Draft Express discussing the USC situation a bit more, as I was quite uninformed and a bit sour on his attitude prior to reading it.
I think they are, and are going to be different types of guards. As far as who is the best (I’m assuming you mean right now) I like Rose, however my comp for him is different (with the caviot that I’ve only see parts of a couple of the Memphis games this year). From what I saw Rose’s game reminded me of Chauncy Billups, but with a bit more athleticism. Big PG who can distribute well, controls the pace of the game, and really gets into the lane with the ability to create space when in there in order to get his shot off. Rose seems like the best of the three at being able to create opportunities for teammates, which is why I’d give him the nod right now.
Mayo and Gordon are going to be more scoring guards, IMO. Not nearly as good as Rose as distributing and creating for others, but guys who will have the ability to put points on the board whenever needed. Gordon is a bit smaller, which could cause him some trouble at the SG position in the NBA, but he’s got outstanding athleticism which could make up for it. I’m thinking a better Ben Gordon as his comp. Similar outside shooting ability, but with better ability to get to the rack and finish.
Mayo has the size and athleticism to be a prototypical SG in the NBA. Outside shot not as consistent as Gordon, but still solid. Bigger and should be better able to match up defensively with SG’s in the NBA. Mayo definately has the lesser of a supporting cast right now in college and is struggling to find consistency in a very tough PAC-10 conference. I think under the right coach (in the NBA) he could really blossom.
All three are reported to be strong defenders on the perimeter.
I gotta say I haven’t seen enough actual game film on any of them to really make an educated analysis, however that’s what I’ve got from an uneducated standpoint, thus far.
Right now (at the college level I’d rank them.
1. Rose
2. Gordon
3. Mayo
As far as NBA potential and upside I’d rank them.
1. Rose
2. Mayo
3. Gordon
January 11th, 2008 at 1:35 pm
Apparently, Mayo’s listed height of 6′5 is a bit of a fib; according to Marques Johnson, he’s closer to 6′3 1/2. At his very best, perhaps Mayo is a future Baron Davis who is also 6-3. I’m waiting for Menace’s comment about “why can’t OJ Mayo be OJ Mayo?”
January 11th, 2008 at 1:37 pm
Well said frozenropers, I agree with those analogies..
January 11th, 2008 at 1:37 pm
The jumper for a 7 footer is gravy. Lets not take this the wrong way…..like you have. IMO it isn’t that cool if your a 7 foot center who “prefers” to take jump shots or is primarily a jump shooter. Whats the point of being 7 ft tall then if you prefer to play small? Think Brad Sellers.
Pretty sure we didn’t draft Petro for his jumper.
PS: we are talking about Petro……not freaks of nature like Garnett or Dirk.
January 11th, 2008 at 1:39 pm
That inch and a half just kills him. How big is his penis Alex?
January 11th, 2008 at 1:40 pm
That inch and a half just kills Mayo. I’m no longer intersted.
January 11th, 2008 at 1:45 pm
Not sure if we can take Alex’s post seriously without knowing the accuracy of the measuring tools used. Did Marques use a tape measure? If so I’d like to know what brand so we can find out the accuracy of that model.
Basically I’d like to see some statistics to support this claim.
January 11th, 2008 at 1:48 pm
Apparently, Mayo’s listed height of 6′5 is a bit of a fib; according to Marques Johnson, he’s closer to 6′3 1/2.
Will be interesting to see how he measures up then.
Anyone watch the USC vs WSU game last night? I only caught the last 1.5 minutes……(garbage time). Anyone have any insite into the Mayo vs Weaver matchup? How each looked? Weaver is listed at 6′5″ also, did Mayo looks noticably shorter? I didn’t catch them next to each other much during that last minute so I couldn’t really tell.
January 11th, 2008 at 1:52 pm
For anyone interested. Here is that article on Mayo. Read the Janaury 9, 2008 update.
http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/O.J.-Mayo-238/
January 11th, 2008 at 2:04 pm
I believe the reason Ridnour has recently logged some DNP-CD’s even when he’s said he’s been ready to play is that the team is hoping to trade him in the next few weeks and they’re hoping to minimize any further injuries which would hurt their chances of consummating a deal.
I put the odds of Luke still being here after the trade deadline at 70-30 against. I think he’s gone, perhaps in a 2-for-1, or as part of a larger deal which would include Damien or Petro.
January 11th, 2008 at 2:17 pm
It’s only one game, but I wasn’t impressed with Kyle Weaver - the way he moves and reacts to things - he looks like the kind of player who will have a difficult adjustment to the NBA game.
Whether or not Mayo fits Presti’s ideal for a guard, who knows - but Mayo will probably be an All-Star.
January 11th, 2008 at 2:26 pm
courtsense Says:
I put the odds of Luke still being here after the trade deadline at 70-30 against.
Is this even possible considering Luke’s base year compensation status? I think the Bobcats are the only team far enough under the cap to absorb Ridnour’s salary.
January 11th, 2008 at 2:28 pm
Is this even possible considering Luke’s base year compensation status? I think the Bobcats are the only team far enough under the cap to absorb Ridnour’s salary.
The BYC thing does make it extremely tough to deal Ridnour. How do the BYC rules work regarding trade exceptions? Can a trade exception be added to the deal to balance it out? Not real clear on if BYC and trade exceptions can be dealt together or not.
January 11th, 2008 at 2:42 pm
I’m no cap expert but I think it might be possible if trading Ridnour for two others. See the last paragraph in #75:
http://members.cox.net/lmcoon/salarycap.htm#75
January 11th, 2008 at 2:47 pm
Dick Tate Says:
“I’m no cap expert but I think it might be possible if trading Ridnour for two others.”
Exactly. Perhaps that’s why Presti didn’t want a 2nd round draft pick sitting on the bench and elected to keep only 14 players - for flexibility.
January 11th, 2008 at 2:54 pm
LOL, yes indeed.
January 11th, 2008 at 2:55 pm
I’m a coug. Weaver has a good all around college game. His achilles heal is his jumper. Not sure if his game translates well into the NBA. He is pretty skinny. Might be worth using a 2nd rounder on. I’m sure some team will.
January 11th, 2008 at 3:07 pm
His achilles heal is his jumper. Not sure if his game translates well into the NBA. He is pretty skinny. Might be worth using a 2nd rounder on. I’m sure some team will.
Yeah, you probably didn’t see my post earlier in the week regarding the draft.
I was thinking of Weaver as an early second round pick type. Might be good coming off the bench as a big defensive minded guard. Kind of like a young Nate McMillan. Maybe developing better ball handling and PG abilities as he gets experience at the NBA level. But mainly a defensive stopper at the guard position to come of the bench.
January 11th, 2008 at 3:13 pm
“I’m no cap expert but I think it might be possible if trading Ridnour for two others. See the last paragraph in #75:”
That’s for a traded player exception, not sure we have one of those currently.
BYC usually requires either a 3rd team or some stacking of players to satisfy the salary requirements on both sides.
Trading Luke by himself would be impossible to any team not under the cap but stacking him with a big contract like Wally Z can work…say Ridnour, Swift, Wally Z for Andre Miller and Sam Dalembert. Not that either team would do it but it is a 2-team trade that manages to work under BYC rules.
January 11th, 2008 at 3:24 pm
That’s for a traded player exception, not sure we have one of those currently.
Don’t we still have one for around $1MM from the Ray Allen trade and one for around $2.3MM left from the Lewis trade (essentially the amount not used up in the Thomas deal)?
January 11th, 2008 at 3:33 pm
Yes you’re right Frozen and Dick, my mistake.
Amounts are actually the other way around, about $2.5 mil from the Ray deal and about $1 mil leftover after the Thomas signing.
January 11th, 2008 at 3:39 pm
Here’s my take on Rose, Gordon, Mayo based on the games I’ve seen and how I’d rank them.
1. Eric Gordon:
The best shooter of all three. He showcased his range against Michigan earlier this week by taking and making three or four three’s from the NBA range. His form, particularly his release looks a little funky, which is why I’m wondering if he’ll be able to shoot the three consistently in the NBA. When teams allow him to drive to his right, he’s absolutely amazing taking it to the hoop. In fastbreak situations, he has the speed of a point guard and the finishing ability. He plays hard and looks like he’s going to be a winner.
2. Derrick Rose:
Doesn’t put up big numbers, but based on athleticism, he’s ready for the NBA. His ballhandling is amazing, and his passes are crisp. Rose’s demeanor on the court and sometimes his play on the court makes me think he’s timid and shy. When Memphis and USC played earlier this year, Mayo accepted the task of guarding Rose. I was hoping Rose would do the same and guard Mayo, however that was not the case. Rose in fact, didn’t do much in that overhyped game. He’s compared a lot to GP because of size, defensive ability, and lack of a consistent jumpshot. What baffles me the most about him is his overwillingness to pass without driving the ball. In man to man situations I think he can take anyone off the dribble. I predict he’ll have a Jason Kidd type career where he won’t put up particularly great scoring numbers, but decent all around numbers with a high assist average in the right situation.
3. OJ Mayo:
My favorite player in college basketball. Mayo has a polished, fluid, and creative offensive skillset. He has great ballhandling which allows him to break defenders one on one, an NBA ready body, and of course that silky smooth jumper. I wish he’d do a lot more in terms of dominating the games when his team has struggled to score the same way Durant did last year against Texas Tech and many other schools. In every game I’ve seen him play, he has showed a great willingness to play defense, which goes against his supposedly poor attitude. He’s going to put up numbers in the NBA, but is he going to be a winner?
January 11th, 2008 at 3:52 pm
Agree with you on these guys awj, the thing I like about Rose is his ability to create off the pass, off the dribble, and off the shot very hard to do when you run the point.. He has a great jab step, which is why he is able to create off of the defense. I do know John Calipari and he says he has such a great way about him, and is a very good kid, John would say if it were different.. The important thing with these 3 kids is how they adjust to the team they are drafted by, very important who they play with and what type of offense and defense they run. Who would fit in with Durant, who wouldn’t he is the franchise so they better be able to play with him..
January 11th, 2008 at 6:11 pm
In the game recently with Rose & OJ, it looked like OJ had some height on Rose. I wouldn’t be surprised if OJ really is 6′5″. OJ dominated that game. Based on that limted viewing oppty, I thought OJ looked like a much more capable NBA-ready guard. I really enjoyed his defense vs Rose, basically shut him down IMO. ajw, I think his offense & outside scoring potential will translate. In answer to your question, if his defense continues the way I saw it, I think I’d be willing to be he WILL be a winner.