2/2/08 Box Score: Sonics 86 Knicks 85
Posted on Saturday, February 2nd, 2008 at 11:15 pm by Big Chris
Like I’ve said before…at least we’re not the Knicks! A rough shooting night for the Sonics, but they were able to win in spite of that anyhow. Good call to double on Zack Randolph on the final possession to force someone else to take the final shot.
Kevin Durant had a rough shooting night, but hit a clutch 3 down the stretch to secure this win. KD was 7 for 21 with 21 points and 7 rebounds. Chris Wilcox had 20 points on 8 of 12 from the floor.
While we can’t quite call it a streak yet, it’s nice nonetheless to string some wins together at home.
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| New York | |||||||||||||||
| Name | Min | FG | 3Pt | FT | +/- | Off | Reb | Ast | TO | Stl | BS | BA | PF | Pts | |
| J. Crawford | G | 40:32 | 9-20 | 2-6 | 3-3 | -1 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 2 | 4 | 23 |
| N. Robinson | G | 32:35 | 0-9 | 0-6 | 5-6 | -5 | 0 | 4 | 2 | 3 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 5 |
| Z. Randolph | C | 36:58 | 9-13 | 0-0 | 6-9 | +3 | 0 | 5 | 4 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 3 | 24 |
| Q. Richardson | F | 37:18 | 4-11 | 3-4 | 0-2 | 0 | 0 | 6 | 4 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 4 | 11 |
| D. Lee | F | 32:40 | 4-5 | 0-0 | 2-2 | 0 | 2 | 10 | 2 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 3 | 10 |
| F. Jones | 24:13 | 1-6 | 0-1 | 0-0 | +3 | 0 | 5 | 3 | 2 | 2 | 0 | 1 | 4 | 2 | |
| R. Balkman | 17:28 | 4-5 | 0-0 | 0-2 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 2 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 8 | |
| J. Jeffries | 13:07 | 1-3 | 0-0 | 0-0 | -2 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 2 | |
| M. Rose | 5:07 | 0-0 | 0-0 | 0-2 | -3 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | |
| W. Chandler | DNP - Coach’s Decision | ||||||||||||||
| M. Collins | DNP - Coach’s Decision | ||||||||||||||
| J. James | DNP - Coach’s Decision | ||||||||||||||
| Totals | 32-72 | 5-17 | 16-26 | 3 | 34 | 17 | 10 | 9 | 0 | 4 | 19 | 85 | |||
| Percentages: | .444 | .294 | .615 | Team Rebounds: 10 |
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| Seattle | |||||||||||||||
| Name | Min | FG | 3Pt | FT | +/- | Off | Reb | Ast | TO | Stl | BS | BA | PF | Pts | |
| K. Durant | G | 36:29 | 7-21 | 1-1 | 6-8 | -4 | 3 | 7 | 1 | 1 | 2 | 2 | 0 | 0 | 21 |
| E. Watson | G | 31:05 | 3-7 | 1-2 | 2-2 | -5 | 1 | 2 | 8 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 3 | 9 |
| K. Thomas | C | 24:01 | 2-4 | 0-0 | 1-2 | -7 | 1 | 5 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 4 | 5 |
| C. Wilcox | F | 34:21 | 8-12 | 0-0 | 4-6 | -3 | 2 | 10 | 4 | 3 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 20 |
| D. Wilkins | F | 29:37 | 4-10 | 0-2 | 0-0 | +16 | 1 | 7 | 2 | 2 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 8 |
| D. West | 29:54 | 3-13 | 1-6 | 1-1 | -10 | 0 | 2 | 2 | 1 | 3 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 8 | |
| N. Collison | 23:36 | 4-6 | 0-0 | 1-1 | +7 | 4 | 12 | 1 | 2 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 5 | 9 | |
| L. Ridnour | 16:55 | 3-7 | 0-0 | 0-0 | +6 | 3 | 4 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 6 | |
| J. Petro | 14:01 | 0-6 | 0-0 | 0-0 | +5 | 4 | 6 | 1 | 2 | 0 | 2 | 0 | 1 | 0 | |
| J. Green | DNP - Coach’s Decision | ||||||||||||||
| R. Swift | DNP - Coach’s Decision | ||||||||||||||
| W. Szczerbiak | DNP - Coach’s Decision | ||||||||||||||
| Totals | 34-86 | 3-11 | 15-20 | 19 | 55 | 21 | 12 | 7 | 4 | 0 | 17 | 86 | |||
| Percentages: | .395 | .273 | .750 | Team Rebounds: 8 |
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| Game Info |
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Technical Fouls:
None |
February 2nd, 2008 at 11:22 pm
Dipper, the formula for determining the likely winner has failed in three of the past five games. Though the theory that “assists don’t lead to a higher field goal percentage” had itself a pretty good night.
February 2nd, 2008 at 11:36 pm
KD shooting % is less than impressive but he sure hits them when you need them. NO FEAR!!!!!
February 2nd, 2008 at 11:49 pm
I was at the game. Very good crowd and a very exciting finish. I thought they would choke for sure when Durant turned it over at the end, but they surprised me. Hopefully the Sonics can keep building on this and also get Wally back soon.
Yep agreed dork, also nice to see KD showing no fear or getting down on himself when his shot wasn’t falling earlier in the game. He was a cool customer knocking down the game winning shot. I’d still like to see him drive more instead of settling for that jumper, but his overall aggressiveness has picked up in recent games. It’s really nice to see him fighting aggresively for rebounds.
I’m a happy camper tonight. This makes up for the last time when I went to the Key and watches the Supes choke a 10 point lead to the Rockets in the final minutes. Go Sonics!
February 3rd, 2008 at 12:26 am
Why didn’t JG play?
February 3rd, 2008 at 1:00 am
I didnt watch game guys but i can say that this is a good streak for us and i hope so my brother will be back for Bulls so we can continue this winning streak…
February 3rd, 2008 at 1:45 am
Wow, Wilcox for 20 and 10. 4 assists. The man is in the house.
Here’s a startling line: Wilkins leads the Supes with a +16 this game. WTF? Aberretion, aberration, thou art my constant shadow.
February 3rd, 2008 at 5:02 am
Durant’s tomahawk on the break was nice. Did it remind anyone else of Kemp? I thought it was rather reignman-esque.
February 3rd, 2008 at 5:11 am
how come collison is getting so many rebounds lately? I’ve been expecting this kind of consistency from him for a long time and just when i was starting to think he might never get there, he seems to be coming around.
I really hope he can sustain this…
February 3rd, 2008 at 5:50 am
how about petro..playing out of his gourd. I mean its like night and day. KC and Snapper, said he was working with mark bryant..well, its definately paying off..
February 3rd, 2008 at 6:49 am
mark Bryant could still go out on any night, it is paying off having him and Thomas around the youger players.
Green has a hurt ankle.
Knicks did not have an answer for Wilcox, too bad the Sonics did not take full advantage of it by having a player that can hit an outside shot throw the ball into Wilcox in the post. Late in the 4th Durant threw it in, Wilcox kicked it back out, Durant throws it back in for a repost, Durant sags off more to double Wilcox, Wilcox kicks it out again for Durant to hit a wide open 3. The game was nearly over by the time they went to this. The other option here is that Durant’s man will refuse to leave him to double Wilcox. Wilcox was killing the single defender. Wilcox took the Sonics first 4 freethrows, thanks to David Lee. If he wasn’t getting fouled he was making shots, why the Sonics did not keep going to Wilcox in the post on every play until the Knicks actually stopped him can only be explained by the people that call plays.
For that matter, the Sonics could have exploited a missmatch every trip down the floor had they just posted bigger guys defended by smaller, Warson/Robinson, Durant/Crawford, Wilcox/any Knick. Insisting on driving on a smaller team negates any built in advantage.
The Durant tomahawk did not remind me of Kemp. Had he taken off a little sooner it would have been more Dr J, on the break I have seen Dr J do that, sadly, against the Sonics. There is a subtle thing that you can see on the tv replay, he is not cuffing the ball like some, it is staying in his hand, bringing it up from his waste, in his hand, under control, a big finish, full speed, in one fluid motion. It is more refined.
February 3rd, 2008 at 9:53 am
Talk about playing 2 horrible teams in our last 2 games. Sonics didn’t really play very well on either side of the court. The offense was stagnant. What happens when Swift & Wally & Jeff come back into the rotation……will the rotation be 12 deep? One of Delonte, Luke & Earl needs to get some consecutive DNP-CD
February 3rd, 2008 at 9:57 am
D-league update: Gelabale had a poor shooting game - but hit a cold-blooded three in the final minute that was really the winning shot and secured for Idaho the d-league record for wins in a row at 16. (he also hit a couple of his patented 3 pointers with a toe on the line for only 2 points shots last night.)
Sene was again OK (6-8 from the field). He played against a couple big boys on the boards and lost. He must get stronger to rebound better. He does box out well - certainly better than Petro and Wilcox.
February 3rd, 2008 at 10:02 am
I disagree, I think it is a streak for a team that has struggled all season. You have to build off of the small things and a three game win streak is the best thing to happen all season!
February 3rd, 2008 at 10:04 am
Alex, you are right. The Sonics won despite a lower fg%. But the Knicks should have won that game. The Knicks missed 10 ft’s, shooting 16-26 (.615) from the line. Had the Knicks just shot a mediocre 75% from the line, as the Sonics did, New York would have made 19 or 20 out of 26 fta’s, and the Knicks would have won that game by 2 or 3 points, as they should have. Free throw shooting is important, also, although not as important as fg%.
There were 2 games last night, including the Sonics/Knicks, where the team with the lower fg% won. Both of those games could have gone either way — one was a 1-point win, and the other was a 4-point win. But the team with the higher fg% won 5 and lost 2 games last night. Friday night, there were 10 NBA games, and the team with the higher fg% won every single game. So, the last 2 nights in the NBA, the team with the higher fg% won 15, and lost 2. That is an 88% winning percentage over those last 2 nights. Not bad, in my opinion.
If you take small samples, you can get skewed results. I am sure I could find a 5-game stretch of Sonics games this year, where the team which shot best won all five games. I used to keep track of every game played by every team every year — over 1,000 games per season. The team which shot the higher fg% consistently won 4 of 5 games (80% of the time) season after season. If you want to pick a 5-game stretch of games played by just one team, or pick just one night with 4 or 5 games, you can find stretches where the team which shoots best loses 3 of 5. Do you really think that means anything?
Again, had the Knicks just shot a mediocre ft%, they would have won that game, despite being out-rebounded 19-3 on the offensive glass.
February 3rd, 2008 at 10:04 am
These are some ugly wins, but, at least Wilcox is playing well. We continue to lead the league in rebounding by grabbing our own bricks at the offensive end. It reminds me of the Clippers teams of old. Shoot 39.5% from the floor, and your team can also lead the NBA in rebounding!
February 3rd, 2008 at 10:11 am
This is off topic but I read where Utah is trying to trade for Jeff Foster. That makes me mad as Foster is a player I’ve been saying for two or three years now that Seattle could use and probably could land since Indianna has been in need of a pointguard besides Tinsley for 3 years themselves..
Sorry, just wanted to vent about this rumor.
February 3rd, 2008 at 10:34 am
OT-It was interesting this past week to learn the list of people that the city of Seattle will be calling on to testify in it’s lawsuit against the Sonics ownership group. One name that was absent that I think should be on their is former Sonics Owner Berry Ackerley. He has been out of the picture since 2001 but I think it would be interesting to hear what he has to say about the lease that he signed with the city in 1994. Ackerley could give his thoughts when he signed the lease and why at the time he believed the lease was a good one. I don’t know if this will happen but I think he could shed some light on a lease that he actually drew up. The City made some changes but for the most part the terms of the lease were drawn up and decided by Ackerley himself and everyone involved back then was happy with the lease.
February 3rd, 2008 at 10:36 am
I agree with Big Dipper. The Sonics did not win so much as the Knicks lost.
The Sonics were not as bad as the losing streak indicated, nor as good as this little win streak indicates.
February 3rd, 2008 at 10:55 am
I was at the game and it was boring. The two teams lulled the crowd to sleep in the first half and it wasn’t until about the last minute when the crowd got into it.
The Sonics who looked so sharp pushing the ball up the floor (especially in the first half) against the Cavs, looked so low energy. But luckily they were playing an equally sluggish team. The first half was UGLY. The Sonics hoisted a jumper whenever they had an opening even though they weren’t falling. The Knicks were so passive defensively, if the Sonics would have just pushed it up the court, driven to the hole, passed the ball, and got it to Wilcox more, they could have scored 70 points in the first half instead of 34. Then we wouldn’t have almost lost the game.
The win was nice though.
February 3rd, 2008 at 11:09 am
“This is off topic but I read where Utah is trying to trade for Jeff Foster. That makes me mad as Foster is a player I’ve been saying for two or three years now that Seattle could use and probably could land since Indianna has been in need of a pointguard besides Tinsley for 3 years themselves..
Sorry, just wanted to vent about this rumor.” {DK}
Once Luke Ridnour was no longer a base-year compensation player after July 1st, 2008, the thought of trading him — so long as he was still with the Seattle Supersonics at that point — to the Indiana Pacers for Jeff Foster would’ve immediately crossed my mind.
If Pau Gasol would’ve been in the fold at power forward to anchor the offense, then Foster and Collison could’ve split mintues at center while playing stout man-to-man interior defense and crashing the boards. Alas, that’s not in the cards.
At any rate, Foster would be a great addition for the Utah Jazz.
FROM INDIANA & TO UTAH
C Jeff Foster ($5,500,000)
PG Andre Owens ($687,456)
FROM UTAH & TO INDIANA
C Jarron Collins ($2,350,000)
PG Jason Hart ($2,300,000)
SG Morris Almond ($1,005,960)
http://tinyurl.com/3xb6ov
With Jermaine O’Neal out for an extended period of time, the Indiana Pacers are going nowhere this season. Furthermore, Larry Bird was reportedly interested in acquiring the draft rights of Morris Almond from the Utah Jazz this past summer. That, therefore, adds some credence to the rumors.
http://www.wishtv.com/Global/story.asp?S=6727330
Regarding the Jazz, Foster would provide that team with a huge upgrade on defense. Because Mehmet Okur and Carlos Boozer are fairly worthless on that end of the court, Foster’s rugged one-on-one low-post defense and rebounding prowess — alongside Paul Millsap’s talents as a weakside help defender — would help enhance the Jazz’s frontcourt depth.
Hell, Jerry Sloan would probably bench Okur in favor of Foster to blance the team’s frontline.
In any case, though, this is another small trade that’d make sense for both ballclubs. Whether or not it occurs in the next couple of weeks, however, is up to the guys who call the shots.
February 3rd, 2008 at 11:21 am
Dipper, the formula for determining the likely winner has failed in three of the past five games.
It is a stat that tends to be consistent with the outcome 75% of the time, not 100%. What you are witnessing is the noise in the small sample size and the reality that there are other aspects that can determine the outcome of a game other than just FG%.
Though the theory that “assists don’t lead to a higher field goal percentage” had itself a pretty good night.
Like all stats, if you look hard enough you can always find a small enough sample size to support your arguement.
One problem I seem to be seeing here is that the “assits” don’t impact FG% crowd is arguing against a point that the “Good Passing” group was not making. The “assist” stat is far too limited to reflect the overall impact a good passing team can have on its FG%. On that subject…….and despite the limitations of the assist stat, do you think it is a coincidence that the top two FG% teams in the NBA:
Phoenix Suns = 49.2% FG%
Utah Jazz = 49.2% FG%
Are also the top two teams in the league in Assists per game:
Phoenix Suns = 27.4 Asts/gm
Utah Jazz = 26.2 Assts/gm
A “good pass” is only reflected in the stat book if it is in an “assist” situation and /or the shooter makes the shot. Thus you could technically make good passes 100% of the time, but if the shooter is only making 60% of the shots, the other 40% of good passes don’t show up in a box score. In addition, all the good passes that lead to a good shot but did not actually qualify for the assist, don’t show up in the box score either.
Like all “stats” there are limitations in how they reflect what’s going on, on the court. For anyone who has played the game, there is no doubt regarding the impact a good passing team can have on breaking down a defense and creating good open, high percentage looks, as opposed to a team that likes to pound the ball into the court trying to dribble around everyone. A good passing team is very hard to defend. A team that tries to dribble through everything is very easy to defend, trap and double team.
February 3rd, 2008 at 11:31 am
Alex, you are right. The Sonics won despite a lower fg%. But the Knicks should have won that game. The Knicks missed 10 ft’s, shooting 16-26 (.615) from the line. Had the Knicks just shot a mediocre 75% from the line, as the Sonics did, New York would have made 19 or 20 out of 26 fta’s, and the Knicks would have won that game by 2 or 3 points, as they should have. Free throw shooting is important, also, although not as important as fg%.
Of course, one could just as easily say, “If the Sonics had only shot 43.7% from the field last night (their season average) instead of the 39.5% that they did shoot, this game wouldn’t have even been close”.
The Knicks didn’t deserve to win this game any more than the Sonics did. This game is a reflection of the 25% of the time where the team wins is not the team with the higher fg%. It just goes to show that while FG% is a good indicator of winning, it is still only accurate 75% of the time, not 100%. Which also just goes to show, that there are a lot of items that impact the outcome of a game, only one of which is FG%.
If you want to look at a stat that is a 100% indicator of success there is only one and that is, which team scores the most points on that give night. That is the only stat that 100% of the time is correct in determining the outcome of a game.
February 3rd, 2008 at 11:32 am
James B. Says:
February 3rd, 2008 at 10:04 am
“These are some ugly wins, but, at least Wilcox is playing well. We continue to lead the league in rebounding by grabbing our own bricks at the offensive end. It reminds me of the Clippers teams of old. Shoot 39.5% from the floor, and your team can also lead the NBA in rebounding! ”
LOL so true. Durant must improve his FG% if the team is to continue to win against teams that aren’t substantially injured or fatigued.
I missed this game - would like to hear more about Petro’s game if anyone cares to share.
February 3rd, 2008 at 11:33 am
Sonicsman, because I’m lazy, where do you find the info on the city witness list?
February 3rd, 2008 at 12:07 pm
“This game is a reflection of the 25% of the time where the team wins is not the team with the higher fg%.”
Based on what, Frozen? Where did you get that 25% figure from?
Anyone who considers the final score to be a “stat” is disingenious. Saying “whichever team scores the most points wins 100% of the time” is foolish, because everyone knows that. The question is “HOW do you score more points than the other team”? I guess frozen’s answer to this question is:
“You score more points than the other team by scoring more points than the other team.”
Really clever, Frozenroper. I bet everyone else is as impressed with that bit of analysis as I am.
February 3rd, 2008 at 12:37 pm
After watching the Trib blog posted YouTube link of Kemp, I have decided that Wilcox is nothing like Kemp. Wilcox is a finesse dunker with grace and the ability to leap and convert a layup or finger roll if he mistimes the leap. He gets impressive putbacks, but he is best with a running start. He NEVER dunks in traffic.
Kemp was raw power. He didn’t care who or how many were in his way. He could slam it from a crouch as defenders leapt on top of him. He was so strong and leapt with such ferocity that he just pushed people out of the way on his way up. Amara was dunking like that a couple of years ago. Wilcox needs space and a clear path to the basket. He may bring some excitement, but Wilcox will never be the same threat Kemp was because he can’t just go up from wherever he is standing. His missed layups and flips would have been nasty slams from Kemp.
That said, Wilcox is developing a nice turnaround, stepback jumper on the left block. It was unguardable last night.
February 3rd, 2008 at 1:13 pm
“The Sonics won despite a lower fg%. But the Knicks should have won that game.”
Thats one way of looking at it, but I don’t agree. You could say “coulda, shoulda, woulda” all day long. The winner of a basketball game is the team who scores the most points before time runs out, end of story. Therefore, all aspects of the game determine the score and hence the outcome (although some aspects more directly effect the score more than others, they all contribute). Free throw shooting is one aspect which is part of the whole floor game for a team. In that regard, NY was weak and thus didn’t score as many points as the opponent, thereby they lost. Deservedly so. I think it is just mumbo jumbo to say that they should have won in lieu of Seattle.
I think the only bonafide way to suggest a team didn’t fairly win or lose on it’s own merit is when an obvious call by the refs on a pivotal shot or possession takes the game out of it’s hand.
Just my opinion.
Nice post Psheehy, I completely agree. Kemp dunked with violence irrespective of the traffic around the rim. When faced with a similar circumstance, Weezy usually fades away and does a little jumper, layin or baby hook.
I wish I could find the post from a year ago or so when I was talking about how I though Petro still has the opportunity to be a good center in this league and I was harangued for it. He is really beginning to play a nice role for the team. I don’t think we are talking all star material here, but he is only 22 and he has been blocking a lot of shots and his help defense has vastly improved and his offense is noticeable, yet still a little forced.
February 3rd, 2008 at 1:15 pm
If you take small samples, you can get skewed results. I am sure I could find a 5-game stretch of Sonics games this year, where the team which shot best won all five games.
- Oh you mean like you do all the time when you try and talk about Jason Kidd…???
February 3rd, 2008 at 1:17 pm
Sorta OT…last night they said they were counting down the top 10 Sonics of all time and it got me to start wondering about Shawn Kemp. Obviously, the guy was a great player for the Sonics. However, when you think about it…he was only a great player for a ver short period…so is Kemp one of the greatest Sonics ever AND does his jersey deserve to be retired??
I think it is a more difficult question then some would think…
February 3rd, 2008 at 1:22 pm
“That said, Wilcox is developing a nice turnaround, stepback jumper on the left block. It was unguardable last night.” {psheehy}
David Lee and Malik Rose were too small to defend Chris Wilcox, while Jared Jeffries — who was shockingly put in at center for a few minutes last night — didn’t have the necessary bulk to stop him. In all honesty, Jerome James should’ve been given some run in lieu of Rose and Jeffries; he’d've at least put a body on Wilcox. Yeah, I just advocated the use of “Big Snacks,” which surprises even me.
February 3rd, 2008 at 1:36 pm
“If you take small samples, you can get skewed results”
“Oh you mean like you do all the time when you try and talk about Jason Kidd…???”
You mean like Jason Kidd’s career fg% of 40.1%? That is from a “small sample” of only 15 seasons, 992 games, and 5,085 - 12,684 fg’s. You mean a small sample like that?
February 3rd, 2008 at 1:43 pm
“I wish I could find the post from a year ago or so when I was talking about how I though Petro still has the opportunity to be a good center in this league and I was harangued for it. He is really beginning to play a nice role for the team. I don’t think we are talking all star material here, but he is only 22 and he has been blocking a lot of shots and his help defense has vastly improved and his offense is noticeable, yet still a little forced.” {Joe Newell}
Johan Petro isn’t a center.
Instead, the Frenchman is a taller power forward — à la Mark Blount and, moreover, late-’80s/early-’90s bust Brad Sellers — who operates primarily with his face to the basket on offense. Unforutnately for Petro, though, a 36.5% effective field-goal percentage on jump shots — which consists of 68% of his attempts — is dreadful for a player of that ilk.
Defensively, however, Petro has made some strides. Yet, despite Petro’s improvements as a weakside help defender, he’s still fundamentally unsound regarding one-on-one interior defense and boxing out his opponent. In the meantime, Petro needs to quickly refine those glitches of his; otherwise, he’s got a dim future.
All in all, I’m still not sold on Petro.
February 3rd, 2008 at 1:51 pm
Yeah, that Durant dunk was beautiful, but look at the replay. Watson made an incredible pass, a jump, acute angle, bounce bass that was gorgeous (and exactly the kind of pass that the anti-Earl crowd say he can’t make).
February 3rd, 2008 at 2:11 pm
I really really dont know what is the problem with Wally…..I know him,i know what he think,what he can do but this ankle injury is something very weird…I think he can play but dont want to do that…Weird guys believe me…..I hope so that he will play at least 30 minutes against Bulls…..
February 3rd, 2008 at 2:21 pm
Wally is resting up for the trade deadline.
February 3rd, 2008 at 2:26 pm
“I really really dont know what is the problem with Wally…..I know him,i know what he think,what he can do but this ankle injury is something very weird…I think he can play but dont want to do that…Weird guys believe me…..I hope so that he will play at least 30 minutes against Bulls….. ”
Wally being injury-prone shouldn’t be anything new, no?
February 3rd, 2008 at 3:59 pm
lester, Watson can pass on the break, throw lobs, but for some reason is a sub-par passer entering the ball to the post, the stark difference between the two can not be explained. He too many bounce passes from the top that do not come up and go past the post defender. He did it again last night, no reason to do it, he was handed the ball, he could have dribbled to a better angle. His lob over his defender to a player in the post is strangely not timed right. He sometimes does not judge the jump of his defender and the ball gets tipped or picked off on the second hop the defender makes, it is hard to explain why since he does throw a good lob on the break.
Even without defensive pressure his passes into the post are often off enough to force the post player to step toward the ball to catch it, or knock it down and dribble the catch (limiting the post player’s options), causing the player to lose some position, or an advantage having a defender pinned on a hip.
Again, this does not match up with his good passing on the break, or lobs, this has really puzzled me for a few years now.
Clearly, I am imagining it, since I want him and Luke traded, and the Sonics to draft a pg.
Your old car stinks when shopping for a new one.
February 3rd, 2008 at 4:12 pm
Baker, Watson is a decent point guard, and would be a highly valuable backup for the right team. I don’t overestimate or underestimate his abilities. He is our best PG right now, obviously so, and I also can’t wait to get a better one.
February 3rd, 2008 at 7:36 pm
Re: Chris Wallace, Griz GM, and his fire sale.
For those yet to read TrueHoop’s conversation with him, the following points stand:
- Miller is available. But a team has to bowl them over with an offer.
- They are expecting to only have two out of Lowry, Conley and Crittendon at the start of next season. Play over the next little while determines which one goes (sounds like one of those patented “evaluation processes”, huh?)
February 3rd, 2008 at 8:09 pm
HOW ABOUT THEM NEW YORK GIANTS!!!!!!!!!!
OMG, WHAT A GREAT GAME. WHAT A GREAT OUTCOME. NFL WAS NEVER BETTER THAN THIS.
ok sorry for the O/T.
February 3rd, 2008 at 8:18 pm
That play where Eli got away was flat out amazing…
February 3rd, 2008 at 8:19 pm
Don’t be sorry, Speedy. That was a hella game!
Lester Says:
Baker, Watson is a decent point guard, and would be a highly valuable backup for the right team. I don’t overestimate or underestimate his abilities. He is our best PG right now, obviously so, and I also can’t wait to get a better one.
That sums it up quite nicely.
February 3rd, 2008 at 8:22 pm
Myk Says:
February 3rd, 2008 at 8:18 pm
“That play where Eli got away was flat out amazing… ”
You can’t script that shit.
February 3rd, 2008 at 8:23 pm
From the New York Post after the Knicks/Sonics game:
“Former Sonic Jerome James claimed to me Seattle came close to matching the $30 million Thomas offered but opted to take the Knicks’ deal because he thought he’d be the starter there for years. James claims former Sonics GM Rick Sund told him they wanted Robert Swift to inherit the starting role in a year.”
Frightening.
February 3rd, 2008 at 8:28 pm
“Frightening. ” you said it!!
That biaatch was in the papers recently like today or yesterday too and said he wanted to be traded because he wasn’t going to get any minutes. After being injured forever. What a punk.
February 3rd, 2008 at 8:35 pm
To think that Sund nearly had him rotting away on our bench for close to $5m a season… this is the reason that neither Wally Walker nor Rick Sund should ever, ever be your GM. It took Isaiah to stop them.
February 3rd, 2008 at 8:46 pm
I am pretty sure it was 3 years, team option after that. Sonics, and nobody else, would go the full 5 years, well, almost nobody. This year would be the end of a horrible decision for Seattle, but rather is is still two years away from a horrible decision of a Knicks Isa-er Thomas proportions.
February 3rd, 2008 at 8:48 pm
I guess we’re lucky in more ways than one. We got Durant. We got rid of Big Snacks. We’re doing OK, despite all other signs and signals of distress.
February 3rd, 2008 at 8:49 pm
“That biaatch was in the papers recently like today or yesterday too and said he wanted to be traded because he wasn’t going to get any minutes. After being injured forever. What a punk.” {speedcat}
“To think that Sund nearly had him rotting away on our bench for close to $5m a season… this is the reason that neither Wally Walker nor Rick Sund should ever, ever be your GM. It took Isaiah to stop them.” {MartinH}
Thankfully, Isiah Thomas and Jerome James are stuck with each other. That, along with the New England Patriots’ poetic demise, makes for a blissful world.
February 3rd, 2008 at 9:00 pm
ok Lester, Dick, I give up, you guys are right, Watson is the better of the point guards I want off the team before next season starts and never, ever, see them return to a Sonics uniform.
They suck as starters, and I am sick of looking at them.
I wish the Sonics could somehow get involved in the multi-team trade so we could send one of those guys to the other side of the NBA planet.
February 3rd, 2008 at 9:09 pm
I’m with Baker on the whole point guard situation.
AK: “Thankfully, Isiah Thomas and Jerome James are stuck with each other. That, along with the New England Patriots’ poetic demise, makes for a blissful world.”
Yes! Add to that my beer-state, Sonic Youth collection, and things are just grand, right now.
February 3rd, 2008 at 9:25 pm
I think that we are stuck having to wait until Luke and Watson’s contracts are expiring to move them. It is kind of tough to get quality back on a trade for a back up PG.
February 3rd, 2008 at 9:36 pm
Luke is byc1, so he had to go at the last draft, or this summer, unless you pack him into a larger deal, you can agree at the draft, and make something official right after.
So, you can move earl now without the byc, him and Wilkins to Atlanta for Childress and Lue, kick in our first pick in the second round, or something like that to pay them off, maybe that crappy Suns 2010 first rounder. Lue has an ending contract.
That’s one.
Luke on draft day for ANY first round pick, I am dreaming, whatever.
Hey, what would it take to get Hinrick from the Bulls, short of sending Durant, while sending them Luke?
I need some answers.
February 3rd, 2008 at 9:52 pm
I really like Hinrick, even though a former Bulls player said he was too short…perhaps a relocation to the Sonics would help both parties.
I saw the comment about Lebron and Kobe not needing a point guard to be successful as they do need to touch the ball every time down the floor to control the tempo and flow of the game. Point guards can become obsolete when everyone can handle the ball up the floor and limit turnovers when a full-court defense is implemented by opponents.
Rose might be too good to pass up, but Mayo may be a solid guard to use in combination with Durant and Green. And Sene is athletically gifted which provides a lot of upside and hope for the future of the Seattle SuperSonics.
February 3rd, 2008 at 10:06 pm
i think kirk heinrich would play for the sonics, he and Nick Collison are friends
February 3rd, 2008 at 10:16 pm
the Family Guy, with Peter as part of the Patriots is on, they sing the song from The Musicman, SHIPOOPI!
February 3rd, 2008 at 10:19 pm
Based on what, Frozen? Where did you get that 25% figure from?
Do you not remember the long endless discussion where you brougt up what percentage of time “when FG%s were different” that the team with the higher FG% won…….I believe it was your study figures that showed the higher FG% team won but only in games where FG%s were different. You chose to exclude those games where FG% were the same, because some other “factor” decided the outcome. So, using a more realistic figure, I included all games, since the real point is to try and determine how often “out of all games” FG% “appears” to be the deciding factor. That ended up being 75% rather than your 78%, at that stage of the season. I believe that was through 41 games or something like that.
Thus my statement, that last night’s game, where the team with the lower FG% WON, is a reflection of those 25% of the games where the team with the higher FG% didn’t win.
February 3rd, 2008 at 10:23 pm
I am recording this episode so I can turn the part where Stewie gives Brian a beatdown trying to collect on a bet into a ringtine, “what the hell man!?! Where’s my money”
February 3rd, 2008 at 10:25 pm
“Former Sonic Jerome James claimed to me Seattle came close to matching the $30 million Thomas offered but opted to take the Knicks’ deal because he thought he’d be the starter there for years. James claims former Sonics GM Rick Sund told him they wanted Robert Swift to inherit the starting role in a year.”
Me thinks Jerome is on the juice.
The only thing I’ve ever heard on the James contract was that the Sonics were not willing to go more than 1 year with a team option for the second because they felt Jerome would not work hard as soon as he got the longer term deal.
February 3rd, 2008 at 10:28 pm
knicks had 10 more freethrows, you have to factor in that, they shoot anything close to the Sonics and we lose. Have I mentioned that there is such a thing as a good foul?
February 3rd, 2008 at 10:36 pm
Anyone who considers the final score to be a “stat” is disingenious. Saying “whichever team scores the most points wins 100% of the time” is foolish, because everyone knows that.
It is rather entertaining how the sarcasm continues to be lost on you. Just like you say above, the question should be “HOW do you score more points”…….should also be applied to your slightly less simplistic approach of FG%.
The real question regarding FG% should be, “HOW do you improve a teams or players FG%”. Does FG% happen in a vacuum? No, it most certainly does not and should not be viewed like it exists in a vacuum. FG% can be impacted and is impacted by shot selection.
The question is “HOW do you score more points than the other team”? I guess frozen’s answer to this question is:
“You score more points than the other team by scoring more points than the other team.”
No, that’s not my answer and is completely opposite of what I’ve actually been stating for the past couple weeks on here, but I wouldn’t expect you to understand what I’ve been saying, because you are too focused the raw stat FG%, whichout trying to understand what impacts FG% or what a player or team needs to do to improve their FG%.
It really is rather humorous that for the past two weeks I’ve actually agreed with you that FG% appears to have a decent correlation to wins, however it is to broad of a stat and one needs to understand those aspects of the game that impact FG% in order to understand what FG% is really telling you and how a team and/or player can improve their FG%. Gotta understand what’s going on behind the number.
February 3rd, 2008 at 10:51 pm
knicks had 10 more freethrows, you have to factor in that, they shoot anything close to the Sonics and we lose.
Didn’t the Knicks only shoot 6 more FT’s than the Sonics? Where’d you get 10?
Knicks = 16-26
Sonics = 15-20
Still, if you want to talk about what could / should have been, then where do you stop? If the Sonics had shot their season average for FG%, then they would have had another 6 points. And if the Knicks had shot their season average FG% they would have had one less FG. And if the Knicks had shot their season average FT%, then they would have made 2 more FTs, essentially getting them back to where they were with total points.
That’s why they play the games. Sonics didn’t shoot well, but they did enough other things well to win.
February 3rd, 2008 at 10:55 pm
oh, sorry, they missed 10. There, that’s better, they sucked at the FT line.
February 3rd, 2008 at 11:00 pm
opponent averages for the Knicks compared to the Sonics averages likely does not end with the Knicks with the same outcome, the Sonics are not average, they suck.
February 3rd, 2008 at 11:05 pm
more rebounds, more attempts, Sonics just had more low % shots to add up to enough points.
February 4th, 2008 at 12:14 am
Frozen: So your 25% comes from 41 games played by one team? Don’t you think that’s a rather small sample? I am basing my 80% winning percentage for the team which shoots a higher fg% on 7 full seasons — probably about 8,000 games. Which do you think is the better figure, one based on 41 Sonics games, or one based on about 8,000 games of every team in the NBA over 7 seasons?
I understand how to shoot a high fg% as a team: get players who are high fg% shooters, like Wilt Chamberlain, Kareem Jabbar, Michael Jordan, Tim Duncan, Steve Nash, etc. You want to make it more complicated than it really is.
Free throws are not impacted by the opposing team. You can not force a team to “take a bad free throw.” You can’t block a free throw attempt. So when the Knicks shot 62% from the ft line, instead of their normal 72%, that had nothing to do with the Sonics — it was purely bad shooting by the Knicks.
I just found a notebook where I kept track of some stats for the NBA playoffs in 2004, and the NCAA mens’ basketball tourney for 2004. That is the most recent season I kept track of stats like this, although I think I’ll do it again for this year’s NBA playoffs and NCAA tourney. Here are the W-L for teams which shot the higher fg%:
2004 NBA playoffs higher fg%: W 69; L 8 (86.9%)
2004 NCAA mens’ bball tourney higher fg%: W 51; L 8 (86.4%)
Now, what were you saying about 25%?
February 4th, 2008 at 12:16 am
Oops. I transposed a couple of number in the NBA playoffs %. It should be 89.6%.
February 4th, 2008 at 2:25 am
Ajw man,Wally was injury prone,but now he is ready,he didnt hurt his ankle man…I KNOW when he is really injured…Do you understand me now?He can play without any kind of pain but he dont want to do that and i dont know why…..
Vinny man,why do you think he is resting?Do you think that he will be traded until deadline?Guys i think he dont want to play for Seattle anymore….I want him to stay,but he clearly dont want do stay…Guys give me your opinions…HE IS NOT INJURED,He dont want to play….Do you think that he want to get out of this team?
February 4th, 2008 at 5:31 am
Who would blame him?
Speaking of Jerome james- where to start!
February 4th, 2008 at 7:24 am
Another solid efford from the D-League guys: http://www.nba.com/dleague/games/20080202/IDAANA/boxscore.html
February 4th, 2008 at 7:32 am
If you believe Jerome James that he nearly signed a $30mil deal and would still be with Seattle, imagine how scary that would have been if Radmanovic’s agent had half a brain and he took Seattle up on their $42mil offer instead of believing he was worth more. James and Radmanovic collectively eating up $13mil a season.
See, there’s always a silver lining to every cloud.
And just for the record, I wanted to see the Pats win but the Giants deserved it. Their defense gave 110% and were the better team on the day.
February 4th, 2008 at 8:18 am
It’s too difficult to study the effects of steroids, other than they damage the lives of everyone who is infected by their poison. Isn’t it time for universal testing throughout sports to set an example for the children that cheaters don’t win in the end?
February 4th, 2008 at 8:24 am
Yeah getting out of JJ’s and Radman’s contracts was dodging a big one!
February 4th, 2008 at 9:09 am
Sounds like somebody be stuck on channel Z. Jason Terry has a monster style contract like Z’s and Wally would help the Mav’s a lot more than Stackhouse these days as they did lose their Finley a while back. Terry, Harris, Diop, Stackhouse and Bass could be workable in the trade machine.
February 4th, 2008 at 9:16 am
Frozen: So your 25% comes from 41 games played by one team? Don’t you think that’s a rather small sample? I am basing my 80% winning percentage for the team which shoots a higher fg% on 7 full seasons — probably about 8,000 games. Which do you think is the better figure, one based on 41 Sonics games, or one based on about 8,000 games of every team in the NBA over 7 seasons?
Fine, we’ll go with 80%. Did you happen to exclude the games where the teams had the same FG% in that exercise? Because if you did, the more accurate figure should include all games played.
So, back to the point, once again………the game against the Knicks where the Sonics won but shot a lower FG% is a reflection of the 20% or greater (if you didn’t actually include all games played in your formula) of games played where the team with the lower FG% won. Obviously, the outcome of the game was decided by other factors.
February 4th, 2008 at 9:19 am
Frozen: So your 25% comes from 41 games played by one team? Don’t you think that’s a rather small sample? I am basing my 80% winning percentage for the team which shoots a higher fg% on 7 full seasons — probably about 8,000 games. Which do you think is the better figure, one based on 41 Sonics games, or one based on about 8,000 games of every team in the NBA over 7 seasons?
- LOL…is that 5% really worth an entire paragraph??
I understand how to shoot a high fg% as a team: get players who are high fg% shooters, like Wilt Chamberlain, Kareem Jabbar, Michael Jordan, Tim Duncan, Steve Nash, etc. You want to make it more complicated than it really is.
- I don’t get it…Michael Jordan did not have a high FG%…he might have had a high FG% relative to other SGs…but if you don’t think that things like passing and whatnot effect a player’s ability to score then there really is no reason to not start your top 5 players at FG% regardless of position…
Jordan’s True Shooting % only ranks 67th of all time. By your logic Brent Barry (who ranks 10th) or even Reggie Miller (8th) would be more valuable players to your team than Michael Jordan.
February 4th, 2008 at 9:19 am
Free throws are not impacted by the opposing team. You can not force a team to “take a bad free throw.” You can’t block a free throw attempt. So when the Knicks shot 62% from the ft line, instead of their normal 72%, that had nothing to do with the Sonics — it was purely bad shooting by the Knicks.
The Knicks defense didn’t have anything to do with the Sonics poor shooting. The Knicks don’t play defense. The Sonics just take too many low percentage shots.
February 4th, 2008 at 9:20 am
Of course Wilt’s true shooting % is only 176th…
February 4th, 2008 at 9:31 am
I understand how to shoot a high fg% as a team: get players who are high fg% shooters, like Wilt Chamberlain, Kareem Jabbar, Michael Jordan, Tim Duncan, Steve Nash, etc. You want to make it more complicated than it really is.
Then in the real world where you can’t trade for everyone you “would like to have” on your fantasy B-Ball team, or where you are constricted by the rules of the CBA, by other teams wants and willingness to deal you their players, what do you do then?
It is at this point, where you can’t just magically wave your fantasy trade wand and make all the players in the league who shoot a high FG% suddenly appear on your roster, that a team should start looking at their shot selection and have a coach that will instill the discipline within the offense to improve the teams shot selection.
If you want to improve a player and / or a teams FG%, and you don’t live in dippers magical “I can trade for anyone I want world”, you work on improving the team’s shot selection.
February 4th, 2008 at 9:37 am
Now, what were you saying about 25%?
Who cares about 20% or 25%. The point remains the same.
February 4th, 2008 at 9:39 am
Michael Jordan did not have a high fg%? LOL
His career FG% was .497, which is very good for a guard. But that includes his last 2 seasons with Washington, when he was 38 and 39 years old, and shot .416 and .445. If you look at Jordan’s first 8 seasons before he “retired” for the first time, (not including his second season when he had a broken foot, and played only 18 games), 6 of thoses 8 seasons Jordan shot over 50%, and the other 2 seasons he shot .482 (first year back from foot injury) and .495. He had seasons of .539, .538, and .535 in those first 8 seasons. I am not going to compute his overall fg% for his first 8 years in the league, before he took a year off to play minor league baseball, but it was well over 50%, which is excellent for a guard — especially one who averaged over 30 pts/gm during that period. After taking that year off, he never shot over .500 again.
I’ll just point out that in an 82-game season, winning 80% of your games comes to 66 wins. Not many teams have won more than 66 games in an NBA season. So I am not too worried about the 20% of games where the team with the higher fg% loses. So you win “only” 80% of your games and lose the other 20%. I’ll take that every time.
Just shoot a higher fg% than your opponent every game and you will win over 60 games per season.
February 4th, 2008 at 9:45 am
I am not going to compute his overall fg% for his first 8 years in the league, before he took a year off to play minor league baseball, but it was well over 50%, which is excellent for a guard — especially one who averaged over 30 pts/gm during that period. After taking that year off, he never shot over .500 again
- Again…the fact that he played “guard” doesn’t really matter if you are saying that just shooting a higher FG% is the only important metric and that shooting a high FG% is independent of many other aspects of the game.
Regardless…by your justification Reggie Miller or Brent Barry would’ve been more attractive players on your team…
February 4th, 2008 at 9:46 am
“The Knicks defense didn’t have anything to do with the Sonics poor shooting. The Knicks don’t play defense.”
I agree with that.
“The Sonics just take too many low percentage shots.”
What is a low-percentage shot? Durant misses one wide-open jump shot after another. A good shooter, taking the same shots that Durant gets, would shoot a much better percentage than Durant. A wide-open 20-foot shot is a “low-percentage” shot for Durant, because Durant is a bad shooter.
By the same token that you say a team can not just magically acquire every great shooter in the league, a team can not just choose to shoot nothing but layups (”high-percentage shots”) all game, either. The opponent is not going to allow Durant to shoot uncontested layups all night, which are the only “high percentage” shots for Durant, at this point. So if you go into a game telling Durant he’s only supposed to shoot uncontested layups all game, that will mean he will get about 3 fga per game.
February 4th, 2008 at 9:47 am
Just shoot a higher fg% than your opponent every game and you will win over 60 games per season.
Or better yet, just score more points than your opponent, then you can win 100% of the time.
Sarcasm aside, yes, and you shoot better, by having better shot selection. In addition, if you are going to have a better FG% than your opponent, you probably should play defense too, otherwise you probably won’t be able to outshoot your opponent, if they are shooting layups all game long and you are shooting 20 foot jumpers.
So, in just that 10 seconds I’ve identified two very important aspects of what goes into having a higher FG% than your opposition.
See how easy it is to drill down below FG%, so we can have a better more meaningful understanding of what it takes to “shoot better” than your opponent. That wasn’t hard, now was it? You try it now.
February 4th, 2008 at 9:52 am
What is a low-percentage shot?
Why doesn’t it surprise me at all, that you’d have to ask that question?
February 4th, 2008 at 9:55 am
On another note…I made this comment to my friend last night…Eli Manning should really be happy he is a famous NFL QB, because he just seems like the biggest nerd…some guys just get lucky
February 4th, 2008 at 9:57 am
Well, Myk, if you have been following my philosophies, you would know that I subtract the league average TS% from each players’ TS%, then multiply that number by a player’s scoring average. So, If Jordan averaged 30 pts/gm, and Barry averaged 12 (or whatever it is), then Jordan would get a lot more credit for his good shooting than Barry would, because Jordan scored a lot more points than Barry.
By the way, Barry has had only 2 seasons where he shot over 50%, while Jordan had 6.
I think Reggie Miller was a very good NBA player. Reggie in his prime was certainly a lot better than Durant is this year. If you could replace Durant with Reggie in his prime, the Sonics would have a lot more wins this season, no doubt.
Once you find guys who are excellent shooters, then I do look at other aspects of their games. But shooting is by far the most important, so if jason Kidd averaged more assists, and more rebounds per game that Michael Jordan, for example, I would not even look at that, because Kidd can’t shoot. That alone means Kidd could not carry Jordan’s jock strap, I don’t care how many assists or rebounds Kidd got.
February 4th, 2008 at 10:01 am
I think we should be happy that DWest is back and it has coincided with the winning streak. he plays good defense and things happen when he is aggressive (sometimes bad sometimes good).
The best stat I like is that he has played 60 minutes in the last 3 games with only 1 turnover. He is shooting 25% (4-20) but only 1 shot every 3 minutes which is good as a scoring guard.
If he makes a couple more shots we don’t even have this discussion. It always seems to be the case with scorers. If they make a few more shots then the critics shutup. He has done positive things in critical situations the past 3 games and has not hurt the team despite only making 4-20. Leave him alone and let him play his game.
60 minutes
10 points
8 boards
8 assists
1 turnover
4 steals
2 blocks
February 4th, 2008 at 10:04 am
I know what a low-percentage shot is: I am asking you, in order to determine if you know what it is or not.
So I guess if you had Jason Kidd and Durant as your starting backcourt, they could both shoot a high fg% just by taking “high percentage shots.” Is that your theory? LOL
Why don’t you answer me this, then. Since Jason Kidd has a career fg% of 40.1%, why has he never learned to take “high-percentage shots”? Is he really that stupid that he does not know what a “high-percentage shot” is? Why don’t you do Kidd, and the Nets, a favor, Frozen, and explain to Jason Kidd what a “high-percentage shot” is, so that he can improve his fg%. I guess you know a lot more about basketball than Jason does. He needs your help.
I guess the only reason Jordan’s fg% was better than Kidd’s is because Jordan only took “high-percentage shots”, and Kidd takes a lot of “low percentage shots”. Right, Frozen? LOL
February 4th, 2008 at 10:07 am
Percentage should be added to the spam filter.
February 4th, 2008 at 10:08 am
By the same token that you say a team can not just magically acquire every great shooter in the league, a team can not just choose to shoot nothing but layups (”high-percentage shots”) all game, either.
No, a team can’t limit themselves to only shooting layups, but THEY CAN work alot harder on offense, instill a better offensive scheme that focuses on spacing, ball movement and player movement, which results in them getting a significantly greater amount of higher percentage shots.
That is simply Basketball 101.
Right now, the Sonics are a lazy offensive team. They have poor floor spacing, they have very little offensive movement and they are a very poor passing team. As a result of their lack of execution on offense, they end up taking a high number of low percentage shots.
Maybe this topic is far more complicated than I am giving it credit for. It guess it is far easier to just look at a stat sheet and assume that it tells you everything you need to know about the game of basketball.
February 4th, 2008 at 10:19 am
So explain to us why Jason Kidd has a career fg% of .401. Is it your opinion that Jason Kidd has a career fg% of .401 because Kidd is too stupid to understand what a “high percentage shot” is?
February 4th, 2008 at 10:24 am
So, If Jordan averaged 30 pts/gm, and Barry averaged 12 (or whatever it is), then Jordan would get a lot more credit for his good shooting than Barry would, because Jordan scored a lot more points than Barry
- Ahh another stat for you to invent…again…Reggie Miller would come out ahead of Michael Jordan in this category…does that make him the better player??
February 4th, 2008 at 10:25 am
So explain to us why Jason Kidd has a career fg% of .401. Is it your opinion that Jason Kidd has a career fg% of .401 because Kidd is too stupid to understand what a “high percentage shot” is?
- Well I guess I would enjoy if you could explain to me why Jason Kidd has made it to two NBA Finals when Steve Nash hasn’t made it to any…
February 4th, 2008 at 10:25 am
So explain to us why Jason Kidd has a career fg% of .401. Is it your opinion that Jason Kidd has a career fg% of .401 because Kidd is too stupid to understand what a “high percentage shot” is?
- Well I guess I would enjoy if you could explain to me why Jason Kidd has made it to two NBA Finals when Steve Nash hasn’t made it to any…
February 4th, 2008 at 10:26 am
You also haven’t explained why Wilt Chamberlin wouldn’t have ranked very high on your list of great players because his true shot % wasn’t very good (relative to the all time greats)
February 4th, 2008 at 10:26 am
“I’ll just point out that in an 82-game season, winning 80% of your games comes to 66 wins.”
careful with your numers there, for this 66-win team to happen they need to have a higher shooting % in EVERY SINGLE GAME THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE SEASON! So throwing it out there as an actual possibility for a team is really unrealistic, Dipper. Don’t play around with numbers to mislead your statistics. 66-win teams exist, but I challenge you to find a team that outshot their opponent in every single game. If there are none then you’re gonna have to revise your thinking.
February 4th, 2008 at 10:30 am
“So, If Jordan averaged 30 pts/gm, and Barry averaged 12 (or whatever it is), then Jordan would get a lot more credit for his good shooting than Barry would, because Jordan scored a lot more points than Barry.”-dipper
Is Dipper admiting that there is another statistic (pts) that make a difference in how good players are and how their team wins?!?!?!
February 4th, 2008 at 10:35 am
So I guess if you had Jason Kidd and Durant as your starting backcourt, they could both shoot a high fg% just by taking “high percentage shots.” Is that your theory? LOL
No that’s not my theory at all, but thanks for trying to speak for me.
I’m not a big fan of Kidd, but that’s neither here nor there.
Kidd and Durant could “improve” their current FG% by taking fewer low percentage shots, which is the basis of my point.
Kevin Durant right now is shooting 28% from 3 pt land. If he eliminated taking 3 pters and spent more time going to the bucket and shooting more mid range jumpes than long range, he’d improve his FG% just by doing that.
I know what a low-percentage shot is: I am asking you, in order to determine if you know what it is or not.
Sure you do, Mr. All they have to do is “shoot better”.
February 4th, 2008 at 10:42 am
Making it to the NBA finals does not depend on only one player per team. Do you really believe that, Myk? You think the only reason Kidd played in 2 NBA finals was because of Jason Kidd? His team mates had nothing to do with that?
You think that if N.J. had been in the Western Conference those seasons that they would have made it to the NBA finals? Did Kidd ever make it to the NBA finals when he played in the Western Conference with Dallas or Phoenix? I think not.
February 4th, 2008 at 10:49 am
“You think the only reason Kidd played in 2 NBA finals was because of Jason Kidd? His team mates had nothing to do with that?”
I wouldn’t say only, but I’d say he’d get a higher percentage of the reason they made it than anyone else on that team. With Marbury they were horrible, the next year with Kidd they’re playing in the Finals.
February 4th, 2008 at 10:53 am
And the reason the Nets were 41-41 last year, and are currently 20-27 this year with Kidd is?
February 4th, 2008 at 10:54 am
Making it to the NBA finals does not depend on only one player per team. Do you really believe that, Myk? You think the only reason Kidd played in 2 NBA finals was because of Jason Kidd? His team mates had nothing to do with that?
Interesting take. Yes, obviously to get to an NBA finals, it takes more than one player, however it is interesting to note where the NJ Nets were prior to Jason Kidd showing up, and what the NJ Nets did the two season’s following Jason Kidd’s arrival.
Obviosly, Jason Kidd isn’t the only reason the NJ Nets made it to the NBA finals, however it does appear that he was the catalyst that turned that team/franchise around.
February 4th, 2008 at 11:06 am
In Jason Kidd’s 4 years in Phoenix, the Suns were eliminated in the first round 3 seasons, and the other season they were eliminated in the 2nd round. Looks to me like it’s much harder to get to the finals from the Western Conference than from the Eastern Conference.
So my answer to why hasn’t Nash made it to the NBA finals, is because he’s playing in a much better conference with a lot more good teams than the Eastern conference. The Nets never had to get past L.A., Dallas, or S.A. to make it to the finals.
February 4th, 2008 at 11:13 am
Vinny Says:
February 4th, 2008 at 10:07 am
“Percentage should be added to the spam filter. ”
That, and the words “Jason Kidd”.
February 4th, 2008 at 11:16 am
It’s a shame that Jason Kidd never had Frozenroper as his coach. Frozen would have told Kidd “just take high percentage shots, Jason”, and Kidd’s career fg% would be much higher than it is.
Still, I can’t help wondering why Kidd was never smart enough to figure that out for himself………..
February 4th, 2008 at 11:19 am
The middle road, Dipper. Stop arguing with strawmen.
February 4th, 2008 at 12:04 pm
It’s a shame that Jason Kidd never had Frozenroper as his coach. Frozen would have told Kidd “just take high percentage shots, Jason”, and Kidd’s career fg% would be much higher than it is.
Way to take every extreme case you can find to try and make your overly simplistic point. If you can find enough strawmen to build up and knock down, then maybe someone will eventually agree with you.
It really is unfortunate, that you are so blinded by your own obsession to be 100% correct about FG% that you appear to have completely lost site of what is actually happening on the court. It is not uncommon for fans who try and break everything down into a single statistic to have this happen to them. It happens in baseball all the time and now appears to be happening more often in basketball.
Dipper it definately appears that you are someone who has taken stats so far to the extreme that they have lost site of the fact that a good balance is needed between statistical analysis and a good understanding of what is actually going on, on the court, during the course of a game. It is unfortuante when someone goes this route and has to turn to seeking out every extreme case they can find in order to try and discredit some strawman arguement they have created themselves, while believing it is the point the other person is trying to make, when in fact, it is not.
You have become a lost cause at this point, as far as I can see. You continue to bring up one extreme example after another, despite others attempts to reflect upon you that your FG% studies over the past decade + are interesting and helpful, but fall short of telling the whole story.
One cannot completely judge a players shooting ability by looking solely at their FG%. Good shooters take bad shots. It doesn’t mean they aren’t good shooters, it means they have bad shot selection. And then some players just plain aren’t good shooters, they don’t have good shooting mechanics, they just never were good shooters and probably never will be, however in order to determine that, ones needs to take their heads out of the stat sheet and watch them play.
If a player doesn’t have a good outside shot but they are in the NBA, they probably have other skills that make them valuable when building a roster (example, Dennis Rodman, Jason Kidd, etc).
Statistical analysis in the NBA, like other professional sports is becoming a bigger and bigger part of the sport. However, like other professional sports, one can get lost in the statistical analysis and forget that there is an actual game being played on the court where events are taking place that are not reflected in a stat sheet. To truly understand the value of statistics, one must not lose site of what is happening on the court that is impacting those statistics.
I’ll leave it at that, as this has become a very unproductive discussion. Reading dipper posts where you do nothing but create extreme positions, incorrectly allocate them to myself and others as our opinion and then work to disprove them is a waste of time.
Good luck in your continued studies of FG%.
February 4th, 2008 at 12:05 pm
I like arguing with Frozenroper. I don’t consider Frozenroper to be a strawman.
(I better tell everyone that this is a joke, or they will think I don’t know what a strawman is).
February 4th, 2008 at 12:39 pm
frozen-
Word.
February 4th, 2008 at 2:54 pm
Way to take every extreme case you can find to try and make your overly simplistic point. If you can find enough strawmen to build up and knock down, then maybe someone will eventually agree with you.
- This is what Dipper does best…its the same as him suddenly qualifying comments like “so and so’s FG% is good for a guard” or just deciding not to address the fact that The Big Dipper’s namesake Wilt Chamberlin’s TFG% wasn’t all that impressive.
February 4th, 2008 at 6:55 pm
Well, I don’t have Wilt’s TS%, but I did some calculations using my own statistic, which is almost the same as TS%. I don’t know when TS% was first “invented”, but I came up with my stat in the early 80’s. I called it “shooting efficiency.” I just divide the player’s points scored by his FGA + (.5 FTA). FGA + (.5 FTA) approximates how many possessions a player “uses up” when shooting fg’s or ft’s. It is only an approximation because it assumes every time a player shoots free throws he is going to the line for 2 shots, which is the end of that possession. It does not take into account the times a player shoots one free throw because he was fouled on a made shot.
Anyway, my stat is close to just 2X TS%. Divide my stat by 2 and you get about TS%. I think TS% uses (.4 FTA) instead of (.5 FTA), but I’m not sure. I have seent the TS% formula, but I don’t remember for sure what it multiplies FTA by.
Anyway, using my stat, I get Wilt at 1.182 pts/possession in his title year of 71-72. Jabbar that year was 1.183, a virtual tie.
The shooting efficiency of other notable players that season:
Gail Goodrich: 1.077
Oscar Robinson: 1.059
Walt Frazier: 1.128
Jerry West: 1.069
Nate Archibald: 1.115
As a team, the Lakers that season had a shooting efficiency of 1.062.
As i said, just divide these numbers in half and you get close to what TS% is.
So that year, Wilt and Jabbar were basically tied, and I don’t see anyone else as good as they were. But I did not calculate it for many players. Maybe you know some players from the 71-72 season who were more efficient that Wilt and Jabbar.
I suspect Wilt and Jabbar were the top 2 most-efficient scorers in the NBA in the era before the 3-point line came into being.
Wilt’s best year in scoring efficiency was 1967, when he scored 1.232 pts/possession.
Some other great centers, and what I think are their best scoring efficiency years when scoring at least 20 pts/gm:
Jabbar: 1.255
Wilt: 1.232
D. Robinson: 1.198
Ewing: 1.191
Shaq: 1.179
Moses: 1.174
Parrish: 1.144
Lanier: 1.141
Olajuwon: 1.133
February 7th, 2008 at 4:39 pm
TS% uses .44