2/8/08 Box Score: Sonics 99 Suns 103
Posted on Friday, February 8th, 2008 at 11:51 pm by Big Chris
When veterans make rookie mistakes you know it’s just not your night to win. Tough way to loose, but we were in this game the whole way.
Chris Wilcox had a strong game leading the way for the Sonics with 22 points and 15 rebounds. Nick Collison added 11 points and 12 rebounds, and Wally Szczerbiak had 13 points and one poorly timed attempted time out.
Kevin Durant struggled going 2 for 12, as did Johan Petro. Durant, Petro, Watson and Ridnour all combined for an anemic 10 for 42 from the floor.
Not including the last 3 FT attempts by Steve Nash to close the game, the Sonics lost this game at the free throw line. The Suns had a +13 advantage in attempted FT’s for the game (+10 if you take away Nash’s last 3). The Sonics had 1 fewer personal foul in the game than the Suns, yet gave up that many more free throws. Not hard to figure that one out.
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| Seattle | |||||||||||||||
| Name | Min | FG | 3Pt | FT | +/- | Off | Reb | Ast | TO | Stl | BS | BA | PF | Pts | |
| K. Durant | G | 31:12 | 2-12 | 0-0 | 5-5 | -10 | 0 | 1 | 3 | 2 | 0 | 2 | 3 | 1 | 9 |
| E. Watson | G | 27:59 | 3-9 | 1-5 | 0-0 | +2 | 0 | 5 | 5 | 1 | 2 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 7 |
| K. Thomas | C | 19:42 | 4-10 | 0-0 | 0-0 | -8 | 1 | 3 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 5 | 8 |
| C. Wilcox | F | 34:37 | 10-18 | 0-0 | 2-5 | -10 | 5 | 15 | 2 | 2 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 3 | 22 |
| J. Green | F | 23:09 | 4-8 | 1-2 | 1-1 | -3 | 1 | 5 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 10 |
| W. Szczerbiak | 24:46 | 5-8 | 1-2 | 2-2 | +1 | 0 | 2 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 13 | |
| N. Collison | 23:53 | 4-6 | 0-0 | 3-4 | +3 | 5 | 12 | 1 | 2 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 2 | 11 | |
| L. Ridnour | 20:01 | 3-9 | 0-1 | 0-0 | -6 | 0 | 1 | 4 | 2 | 0 | 0 | 2 | 3 | 6 | |
| J. Petro | 17:47 | 2-12 | 0-0 | 1-2 | +7 | 5 | 7 | 2 | 0 | 0 | 3 | 1 | 2 | 5 | |
| D. Wilkins | 16:52 | 4-5 | 0-0 | 0-0 | +4 | 1 | 3 | 1 | 3 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 3 | 8 | |
| R. Swift | DNP - Coach’s Decision | ||||||||||||||
| D. West | DNP - Coach’s Decision | ||||||||||||||
| Totals | 41-97 | 3-10 | 14-19 | 18 | 54 | 19 | 14 | 3 | 8 | 9 | 22 | 99 | |||
| Percentages: | .423 | .300 | .737 | Team Rebounds: 8 |
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| Phoenix | |||||||||||||||
| Name | Min | FG | 3Pt | FT | +/- | Off | Reb | Ast | TO | Stl | BS | BA | PF | Pts | |
| R. Bell |
G |
36:44 | 5-14 | 0-6 | 4-4 | +10 | 1 | 5 | 4 | 0 | 0 | 2 | 0 | 3 | 14 |
| S. Nash | G | 36:41 | 4-13 | 2-5 | 3-3 | +9 | 0 | 4 | 8 | 2 | 2 | 0 | 2 | 0 | 13 |
| A. Stoudemire | C | 39:46 | 9-18 | 0-0 | 15-15 | +6 | 0 | 10 | 1 | 2 | 0 | 1 | 2 | 3 | 33 |
| G. Hill | F | 38:56 | 6-13 | 0-1 | 4-4 | -1 | 1 | 7 | 4 | 2 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 3 | 16 |
| B. Diaw | F | 29:24 | 2-7 | 0-0 | 0-0 | +5 | 5 | 9 | 4 | 3 | 2 | 1 | 2 | 4 | 4 |
| B. Skinner | 26:18 | 2-7 | 0-0 | 0-0 | -1 | 5 | 10 | 0 | 1 | 2 | 4 | 2 | 4 | 4 | |
| L. Barbosa | 23:29 | 4-12 | 1-3 | 6-6 | -1 | 1 | 2 | 0 | 3 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 3 | 15 | |
| D.J. Strawberry | 8:40 | 2-2 | 0-0 | 0-0 | -7 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 3 | 4 | |
| S. Marks | DNP - Coach’s Decision | ||||||||||||||
| E. Piatkowski | DNP - Coach’s Decision | ||||||||||||||
| A. Tucker | DNP - Coach’s Decision | ||||||||||||||
| Totals | 34-86 | 3-15 | 32-32 | 13 | 47 | 21 | 13 | 7 | 9 | 8 | 23 | 103 | |||
| Percentages: | .395 | .200 | 1.000 | Team Rebounds: 4 |
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| Game Info |
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Technical Fouls: |
February 9th, 2008 at 12:03 am
The Suns shoot under 40% (only 20% from 3) and still pull it out - wow. 32-32 from the line was pretty impressive though.
2-12 from Durant… remember the days when folks were saying 20 FGAs/gm weren’t enough? It seems so long ago.
I missed the postgame comments… did PJ take any of the blame for the botched TO call or did he lay it all on Wally?
February 9th, 2008 at 12:13 am
Whether he was told or distracted from hearing it in the huddle is one factor but a vet as seasoned as Z has been through enough of those end game inbounding situations to know you need to be clear on all of your options before the whistle blows to start the play.
February 9th, 2008 at 12:21 am
Dick, you are opening up that can of worms about field goal percentage…
Durant’s forty-percent shooting on the season doesn’t really concern me as much as his horrid three-point shooting this season. He has one of the worst thee-point shooting percentages in the NBA among those that attempt more than three a game. He has only taken three in the last five games; I wonder if he has lost confidence in that shot or the coaching staff is advising him to take fewer threes. That advice will only hurt him in the long-run.
February 9th, 2008 at 12:53 am
I’m still upset about the goaltending call on Kurt Thomas when it was obvious in the replay that he didn’t touch the ball going into the basket. Even the Suns broadcasters said it was obvious he didn’t hit the ball. Those two points could have made the difference in this game. It should be reviewed by the league.
February 9th, 2008 at 1:32 am
How insanely frustrating is it to have to put my kids to bed with 3 minutes left in this game…
All in all very entertaining basketball. I still cannot believe that our team has such a lousy record, supposedly no interest at all, and this website is generating 170 posts in a game thread on a Friday night…
My kids were hilarious tonight although starting to go down a road that I don’t know how to address. Midway through the game my son (first year in catholic school) says “Dad, why don’t you just ask god to save the Sonics?” I try to explain to him that God doesn’t work that way and that Clay probably knows how to pray too and my daughter chimes in “If Clay’s going to pray then we have to daddy!” She goes on “Dear God. Clay is a our enemy and he wants to steal the Sonics. He wants to take them to his home town and we want to save them. God we love the Sonics so much. Please help us to battle Clay and to win every Battle. Please God save the Sonics.”
It was very cool. We’ll work later on the fact that Clay, while at odds with us, probably does not deserve the wrath of the almighty…
Picture of my kids posted at the top for reference.
Wilcox looked really good tonight. Some of the best ball I’ve seen him play. He just looked like a really multi-dimensional big man who actually made use of his athleticism.
February 9th, 2008 at 1:41 am
I thought it was pretty foolish for PJ to have Johan in at the end, rather than Nick. Nick’s pretty good at getting open for inbounds passes as well, so that could have made a difference on that final play as well. I’m getting tired, or should I say losing respect for Carlisimo.
Johan, and CW were pretty good though, and let’s hope for this consistently from them…
February 9th, 2008 at 1:47 am
Sorry about my ramble. Not really on topic.
Johan is like a different player right now. It seems like someone taught him to be nasty.
Could it be that the combo of Mark Bryant and Kurt Thomas is making more progress with our bigs than Jack Sikma and Vitaly Potapenko did?
I honestly could not think of the last more “established and veteran” big we’ve had than Pot. That is really, really sad.
February 9th, 2008 at 1:52 am
Since returning to the starting lineup, Wilcox has been a complete beast. 16.6 ppg while shooting over fifty-nine percent from the field. He’s also doing a pretty good job on the glass during this period, averaging almost ten boards a game. More importantly, the team has four wins during this stretch and competed for forty-eight minutes in the two of the four games they lost.
I’d say reinserting Wilcox into the starting lineup has been PJ’s best coaching decision all season. He didn’t get seduced by Nick’s individual stats during the fourteen game losing streak; hopefully the decision continues to pay dividends.
February 9th, 2008 at 5:04 am
That Watson/Wilcox play was sweet. You know the one i mean.
February 9th, 2008 at 7:16 am
“I try to explain to him that God doesn’t work that way and that Clay probably knows how to pray too and my daughter chimes in “If Clay’s going to pray then we have to daddy!” She goes on “Dear God. Clay is a our enemy and he wants to steal the Sonics”
Bad news on the God front. He apparently lives in Oklahoma City. Maintains a residence right by the Ford Center and has a quick commute down Highway 40 to Tulsa where the folks at Orel Roberts University wait for his order.
I drove past the Ford Center this summer. Jesus was on the billboards . . . Jesus was on the radio . . . Idriving eastward from Pheonix, Oklahoma city is like the gateway to the bible belt.
February 9th, 2008 at 8:43 am
BR said: ““If Clay’s going to pray then we have to daddy!” She goes on “Dear God. Clay is a our enemy and he wants to steal the Sonics. He wants to take them to his home town and we want to save them. God we love the Sonics so much. Please help us to battle Clay and to win every Battle. Please God save the Sonics.”
LOL - what a great story - I think it’s quite touching, despite that I don’t really buy in to the capital G business
Might even get some traction in OKC with a story like that!
This could be just the kind of stuff that Percy Allen was asking for yesterday - unique/interesting/touching fan stories about the Sonics.
February 9th, 2008 at 9:16 am
Probably should not talk about Catholics and touching fan stories in the same post…..
February 9th, 2008 at 9:30 am
geez Vinny, you HAD to go there.
February 9th, 2008 at 10:13 am
It’s becoming more and more apparent what a problem it is to have your 3 best players play the same position. There are not enough minutes for Collison, Wilcox and Thomas, if Petro and Swift are going to start getting increased minutes, as they should. Sene might even deserve some minutes when he comes back from the development league.
In the long run, neither Collison nor Wilcox can play any position other than power forward, and they each need, and deserve, around 36 minutes per game. So one, or both, of them is not going to get enough minutes, if all the center minutes go to Swift, Petro, Sene and Thomas.
I like both Collison and Wilcox. But I don’t think either of them would, or should, be satisfied with 12 to 15 minutes/game coming off the bench, and Collison should not have to keep playing minutes at center.
Obviously, a trade needs to be made. What could we get for Wilcox or Collison? Maybe Wilcox, Ridnour and a #1 pick: would that get a top point guard prospect, or not?
February 9th, 2008 at 10:16 am
A little while ago, the Sonics won a game because their opponent (I forget who it was) missed 10 ft’s, which was the difference in the game. Last night, the Sonics lost a game because the Suns did not miss one free throw.
That was unlucky for the Sonics. If the Suns shoot their normal ft%, the Sonics win. Going 32-32 from the line is just a totally fluke game for Phoenix. Just bad luck for Seattle that Phoenix happened to do that against them.
February 9th, 2008 at 10:20 am
“Maybe Wilcox, Ridnour and a #1 pick: would that get a top point guard prospect, or not? ”
Sounds reasonable to me, absent a named trading partner.
“That was unlucky for the Sonics. If the Suns shoot their normal ft%, the Sonics win. Going 32-32 from the line is just a totally fluke game for Phoenix. Just bad luck for Seattle that Phoenix happened to do that against them. ”
I pretty much agree there too. There was that bad call on KT, but bad calls happen, can’t use them as an excuse. KD’s shot sucked and that’s also not always going to be the case too.
February 9th, 2008 at 10:29 am
how about Wilkins shoving Wally’s defender into Wally as they crossed under the basket, Wilkins called for an offensive foul. That game was made for Wilkins style and he kicked this game away with some really stupid plays. Maybe he did not want to play, whatever, in a close game you just can not have that.
February 9th, 2008 at 10:38 am
While Petro patrolled inside, Durant (nine points) was spectacular on the perimeter defensively. He shut down Nash in the final quarter and forced the two-time MVP into a critical turnover that resulted in a fast-break dunk for Durant.
-Percy Allen
Cue AK1984 convulsions…
February 9th, 2008 at 10:43 am
In case you didn’t see these:
Gary Washburn’s summary of Phoenix game included a brief mention that “Two fans sitting in the third row were holding up “Save Our Sonics” signs during the game.”
A Phoenix article included Gelabale on a short list of wing men who could defend that might make sense for Suns to pursue post-Marion.
.
February 9th, 2008 at 10:44 am
So Brian R. —- Keep up the prayers with your kids
ALSO……
What is happening with the arena situation? Is Anyone putting together anything solid in the way of a potential new arena or major KEY remodel? (I still think if this does not happen then the Sonics will be gone - just a matter of when)
AND - What do you think the NBA BOG will do in April when they vote on Clay’s desire to move when the court case on the lease is not scheduled until June? (Is that the accurate schedule?)
Where are things at with the potential move of the team????
Is there anything that the fans can do at this point other than wait & see what the big-shots will do?
February 9th, 2008 at 10:48 am
I’ve mentioned a few times that Gelabale would be a good fit for the Suns. He is showing that he can make the 3 now. He’s fast, he is a good defender. He is smart. It is a sad waste to see him in the D-league (where he had another very good game last night). The Sonics should trade him this year.
February 9th, 2008 at 10:49 am
AJW, I think Haslem might be a main piece in a trade…… yes he is a very good player and can obviously be a pretty big contrubitor to a championship-level team as a good 4th option and defensive player/rebounder.
But I think he will be the one getting replaced, unless its a Center that we land like say maybe Okafor or Jermaine Oneal (That is probably a no-go for J Oneal) that could start next to Udonis on the frontline instead of a Brand/Wilcox/Beasley that will be basically replacing Udonis.
Know what I mean?
February 9th, 2008 at 10:51 am
Baker, true enough, Wilkins was out there for himself this game. But then again, he always is.
We nearly beat the Suns, best team in the West! We were in the game until the last 15 seconds. If not for the tactical error… let’s just hope Wally World doesn’t do anything extreme over this major f’up by his fave player.
February 9th, 2008 at 10:51 am
MR Baker
Great scouting report on Wilcox, sounds like a perfect fit to me as a big for an uptempo system to fit with our personnel…….. put a defensive stud center next to him and have him be our primary interior option on offense and bigman running the break that him/marion/defensive stud center start with their rebound and outlet and then get out and fly with Flash Matrix and Wilcox…….. in halfcourt all Dwyane’s game creating and Wilcox in the lowpost with Marion slashing game and others getting plays made for them (Open 3’s for Quinn, Banks, Marion), plus Banks’s penetration and is a solid scorer for a 4th option attacking the rim and a nice jumper plus has some good playmaking ability…….
Even if his passing out of double-teams isnt great and is just average that would be fine, and I saw what you said about guys not moving to open spots or cutting and we have 2 of the very best when it comes to that in Wade and Marion to make it easy for him, plus guys like Banks, Quinn and Cook will be spot up behind the 3point line (Cook may be included in a trade if we had to to make it happen actually, but you get my drift, maybe Wally would replace him in my statement)……. So I think it would work very well for him and us in that regard.
I really like that scouting report and liked what I saw tonight. I think he would be a perfect fit to what we have and especially to Flash and the Matrix for our new uptempo system that will be building, and gives us the post-presence on offense (Very important dimensoin)…….. I hope there is some way ot land him, I kniow it will cost us a bit but it would be worth it. Maybe take Wally if you dont want the bad contract too…. as he could help as a trailer on the break with his shooting and to widen lanes for Wade with his perimeter threat spacing the floor for Wade and Marion and even Wilcox (theoretically, saying we could make it happen)……..
Then we just put a defensive/rebounding stud next to him inside that can bang a bit, run the floor, set picks, and get garbage points with maybe a solid/average 14 foot set shot and we are in business………
February 9th, 2008 at 10:52 am
Presti has up to 2 years to turn PG into something more positive and promising or he will fail to rebuild.
February 9th, 2008 at 10:55 am
Wilcox’s back-to-basket lowpost game was very impressive from my point of view last night.
Looks great out on the break running the floor too, very good finisher on the pick and roll and can really get to the rim with athletic moves….. his face-up game and 12-15 foot jumper improves a bit and he plays 36 minutes a night he could be an absolute stud…….
February 9th, 2008 at 10:59 am
Look!!!
This is no good!! I damand a stop immediately.
We already have a Steve. Steve has a personality. He is somebody. He knows lyrics to rap songs/heavy metal/country-western! He says Shipoopi, and is good for an irreverant comment or a nice double entondre.
I’m not okay, with someone new coming into this board, asking questions about Wheesy, and saying he’s Steve.
Look buddy, in real life people might call you ‘Steve’. Here, you gotta be somebody else. I’m sorry, Steve was here first.
February 9th, 2008 at 11:01 am
Big Dipper, you might have a taker on Wilcox in the Miami Heat.
Heat from what I hear are very interested and when Riley is interested he usually gives up what he has to in order to make it happen, whether thats expirings, draft picks, we have some young talent (Wright or Cook would be tough to give up though, admittedly)……
I hope Riley can get it done, but then again he’s going to way his options looking at guys like Elton Brand that may reach free agency this summer, or possibly Okafor, and then theres the case that we might get the number 1 pick in the draft that would also be a great fit for us (Beasley)…….
February 9th, 2008 at 11:04 am
Better?
February 9th, 2008 at 11:05 am
How about “New_Steve,” “Miami_Steve,”
“Stevaroo,” “Steve_Man,” “The_Stevester,” (has to be read in the voice of Rob Schaffer from SNL in the copy room).
February 9th, 2008 at 11:06 am
sonics commit 22 fouls, suns 23, suns shoot 13 more freethrows.
there are smart fouls and dumb fouls, fouls on the floor that impeed the movement of the other team ( holding and grabbing is called less too) and then there are the slaps on the arm while the player is in the act of shooting and while in the penalty.
one less foul AND 13 fewer freethrows. Games are won and lost for the Suns by gaining this simple advantage. It isn’t that they do not play defense, it is when and where they apply defensive pressure to get the greatest return with the least penalty, fronting or over playing the passing lane to deny the pass is rarely going to result in an and-1 foul, but it may force the other team to catch passes away from spots on the floor where they like it, and get a few turn overs as we saw last night in the second half.
on the ball defense is as important as away from the ball defense, that is what makes Raja Bell and Bruce Bowen effective.
Last night the Suns also denied the inbounds pass after most made buckets in the second half, they did not have the pg stay back, but they defender of the guy inbounding the ball was used to deny the Sonics pg the ball, Diaw was often back there, forcing the Sonics to bring another player back to catch the pass and then hand it off to Earl or Luke, that means 3 Sonics are in the back court, 1 Sun, and the rest of the Suns are set in their defense before the ball gets across half court, where Nash then picks up our PG. That tactic can buy a lumbering Shaq 2 seconds extra to get down to the other end and allow the Suns to play more half court defense with Shaq rather than running and transition defense. Half court offense by the other team is to the advantage of a team with a defending and rebounding Shaq to spark fast breaks. Throughout a game the Suns will have more fast break points than the other team, though their fast break points overall may be down when they play with Shaq.
The delay tactic in the inbounds pass will have to be used a lot.
Just my guess.
February 9th, 2008 at 11:08 am
Who is really in need of a PG now?
Houston. Cleveland.
For the future?
Probably Clippers. Probably Atlanta but it might taken them awhile further to move beyond who they have. Indy. Philly to have a vet to tandem with Williams. NJ.
February 9th, 2008 at 11:10 am
Hi Steve, other Steve here. Nice to read your comments on the board last night.
Expiring contracts would probably interest the Sonics most right now, Jason Williams … don’t see us having much interest in guys like Wright.
Re: Wilcox that was probably his best game for a while. As you can see he has a decent postup game and is really good at filling the lane/running the break. That’s about it though. I do not think he knows how to play on the defensive end. If you’re expecting consistency from him you will probably be disappointed. I doubt he will ever be a face-up player or an effective midrange shooter but he probably would fit in pretty well on the new look Heat.
February 9th, 2008 at 11:12 am
Steve number 1?
February 9th, 2008 at 11:13 am
Sounds like a good guess Mr. Baker.
February 9th, 2008 at 11:14 am
After that botched inbounds pass and just dumb-ass play by Damien and Waldo Z I had to leave the room and drown my woes in potato vodka.
Just terrible execution by the vets there.
And that was probably Durant’s least effective game to date … thankfully he did take only 12 shots … but I would really like to see the kid start taking it to the cup more … anyone see Melo’s game last night? And WTF was up with those bootycrack unis the Wizards had on?
February 9th, 2008 at 11:15 am
Cute story Brian heh heh!
February 9th, 2008 at 11:17 am
It seems very very unlikely that Bennett/Presti would give Wilcox the very big and long 3rd contract Wilcox will want. So I think he goes sometime in next 17 months. What time is best? Up to Presti to sort that out.
February 9th, 2008 at 11:20 am
I personally do not think it would make sense to wait beyond this July/August to move Wilcox. People still talk potential. Take advantage of that. Injury risk is a modest concern.
February 9th, 2008 at 11:22 am
D_G, Steve that writes stories fire this site has a green lettered name (that links back to this blog), Steve-meister-aroony-stevo the man for the Heat, his name is in black or gray letters. This does not help colorblind folks or people using monochrome monitors from the dawn of the information age, or RUMBA users.
February 9th, 2008 at 11:25 am
“Maybe Wilcox, Ridnour and a #1 pick: would that get a top point guard prospect, or not? ”
Damn, I’d hope to get a better return than just a “prospect” for that package. Teams have traded stars for less.
February 9th, 2008 at 11:27 am
Baker!!!
Green Steve v. Gray Steve.
Works for me!!! I like it.
Welcome to the site Gray Steve.
February 9th, 2008 at 11:37 am
Crow, a few days ago I watched part of the Rockets at the Bucks game, both if those teams backcourts would be better with any of our PG’s we fans are in a hurry to get “rid” of.
Just hard to watch that game.
Rockets could use Earl, his shot is better than Luke’s and they do not have a pg that can knock down a mid-range shot on the weakside. The ball gets swung there and the kids they have do not want to take that shot so they drive into traffic in the paint and get shut down. They have 2 or 3 guys willing to shoot a 3 pointer.
February 9th, 2008 at 11:39 am
D_G, remember, one of them is in road green lettering.
February 9th, 2008 at 11:41 am
“I had to leave the room and drown my woes in potato vodka”
Sounds yummy. Lusskova or what?
“Green Steve v. Gray Steve. … Welcome to the site Gray Steve. ” He he. Thanks to Baker for clarifying this point.
February 9th, 2008 at 11:46 am
“Maybe Wilcox, Ridnour and a #1 pick: would that get a top point guard prospect, or not? ”
Damn, I’d hope to get a better return than just a “prospect” for that package. Teams have traded stars for less.
Me, too. But who would be available? By “prospect” I mean a young point guard in his 1st or 2nd year, who looks like he might be good some day. I would prefer D. Williams, or C. Paul, of course, but why would they be traded for anything?
Might have to wait until the draft, and see if there’s a player they like (prospect) that would be worth making a trade lilke that for.
Mainly, I just think it’s a bad idea to keep both Wilcox and Collison, and I think Wilcox probably has the higher trade value, while Collison might actually become just as good a player as Wilcox, if not better.
Getting rid of Ridnour in any trade is just a bonus for the Sonics.
February 9th, 2008 at 11:48 am
Hell of a good game to watch last night. Very exciting! Kept me on the edge of my seat.
One man’s perspective who approaches this game as a fan, and not as a basketball analyst:
Wally Z is a remarkably high strung guy, who struts around with a seemingly affected and often situationally inappropriate intensity. Watch him shooting free throws, when his teammates come to give him a supportive pat on the rump, and he commenses to slap their ass like an Oklahoma trailer Dad greeting his daughter when she comes home late from the hootanany. He just doesn’t seem to be on the right wavelength.
But last night, after that time-out . . . that emotion in his eyes . . . the despair revealed after a season of dissappointment. There were some very complex feelings going on there . . . one’s really at the heart of sports.
February 9th, 2008 at 11:53 am
Baker, et al, I’ve been wondering:
Does any stat site track foul shots given up per foul committed? I’ve seen some pretty crazy differentials like the one for the Sonics last night. It would be interesting to know which teams are best/worst in this. Pretty obscure stat, though. Crow, want to run a regression on the r-value of this if we ever come up with a number? My gues is the correlation is
February 9th, 2008 at 11:53 am
less than 0.1
February 9th, 2008 at 11:55 am
I am going to the caucus or schlongus today, I will wear my Sonics sweat shirt, lobby for a full-on Seattle Center make over for the entire site, and remind the white wine drinking captives (nobody leaves until 2pm, per rules) that the Storm is staying no matter what they think about the Sonics, that the “Fun Forrest” has been hemoraging money for years.
February 9th, 2008 at 11:57 am
“Crow, want to run a regression on the r-value of this if we ever come up with a number? My gues is the correlation is less than 0.1″
Correlation between what and what??
Between fouls and foul shots taken?
Between foul shot differential and wins?
Not sure what you think will be correlated.
February 9th, 2008 at 12:00 pm
A package of Wilcox, Ridnour and a #1 pick would be well suited to getting a vet point guard and I don’t really see that happening.
You might get a good prospect PG for 2 or 1 of those. If you gave all 3 to get a real high quality prospect you’d probably have to take other guys back - expiring or otherwise, wanted or not- except maybe in summer. But already in the league prospect PGs may divide into practically untouchable unless you go to giving up a package like with those 3 elements or not much better than what we have.
Watson and Ridnour still here in Nov 08 is fairly likely. Both still here in Nov 09? Possible, perhaps with a young guy though too.
February 9th, 2008 at 12:04 pm
Vet teams tend to know how much they can foul within the bonus rules to minimize free throws- and when to foul period. Suns did a better job on that than the Sonics.
No I am not personally interested in that question enough to run a regression but it is a decent research question.
February 9th, 2008 at 12:07 pm
foul shots given up and fouls committed by team are both readily available so a simple regression could be run in excel if you want to pursue it
February 9th, 2008 at 12:09 pm
RE: WallyZ: “…a seemingly affected and often situationally inappropriate intensity.”
I’m pretty sure I’ve never heard a better description of his on-court behavior. But his intensity and commitment, despite the look of it, is totally real.
If you’ve ever seen him do a news conference, it’s the polar opposite of his physical “intensity” antics on court. He comes off as very level-headed, smart and experienced. He goes into more detail than most player interviewees.
“But last night, after that time-out . . . that emotion in his eyes . . . the despair revealed after a season of dissappointment. There were some very complex feelings going on there . . . one’s really at the heart of sports. ”
He’s for real. That’s what I like about Wally Z. His game has plenty of deficiencies, but he’s always giving 100% and he cares for real. He’s not selfish on court either, IMO. He makes for a great co-captain or court leader IMO, if management allows him to develop that role. I think he’d fit in pretty much anywhere and we may see him soon on another team that’s on a real run for the championship.
February 9th, 2008 at 12:13 pm
“but it is a decent research question.”
Wondering about variation in fouls to free-throw ratio may be interesting. But I’m not at all clear about what Casual Fan is suggesting regarding seeing what this is related to.
Maybe what Casual Fan is saying is that there is a correlation between team experience and fouls to free-throw ratio.
February 9th, 2008 at 12:19 pm
Perhaps casual fan will clarify.
I did run regression for fouls committed and foul shots given up at season level and the correlation coefficient is .93. Over season it tends to even out.
Game to game can be quirky.
February 9th, 2008 at 12:23 pm
“Presti has up to 2 years to turn PG into something more positive and promising or he will fail to rebuild.”
Agreed 100%. Which means you cannot draft a PG and merely hope that he will pull a Tony Parker/Deron Williams. Go for Beasley, get a PG via-FA.
February 9th, 2008 at 12:25 pm
Houston probably could use Watson Mr Baker but maybe they go for Duhon or someone else cheap or expiring instead? Or stand pat.
Their cap concerns may override the differences Watson would provide above the other options. But if they got desperate and they probably should maybe they could make a move or set of moves to handle it.
February 9th, 2008 at 12:29 pm
A simple ratio of foul shots given / fouls committed gives the “foul impact / smartness” award to Toronto, Portland 3rd Phoenix 7th. Sonics 24th.
February 9th, 2008 at 12:29 pm
Spurs are 4th.
February 9th, 2008 at 12:35 pm
I do think what you lay out Joshu@ is sounder strategy if you want to start being good by spring 2010 and what I’d prefer to do.
But if you can hit a home run in the draft it could work. Thinking you can hit a home run drafting a PG is not the same as doing it.
But more likely drafting the PG of the future means not being good until 2010-11 season and beyond. And it is still dicey. Look at the number of disappointing young PGs in the league taken with high or moderate draft picks. Including here.
February 9th, 2008 at 12:36 pm
Mr Baker Says:
“Half court offense by the other team is to the advantage of a team with a defending and rebounding Shaq to spark fast breaks. Throughout a game the Suns will have more fast break points than the other team, though their fast break points overall may be down when they play with Shaq.
The delay tactic in the inbounds pass will have to be used a lot.”
I agree Shaq will give them interior defense (at least when he is in position) and can start some breaks. The Suns have given up offensive rebounds in the past that could be turned into fast breaks, although without Marion they may not rebound much better.
The other thing about Shaq joining the Suns is that he can’t play large minutes, which might make the trade look bad, but the Suns are an ideal team to have him because they will just run and gun whenever he is not in the game. They already do that better than any team and when it is working (Suns on 15 point runs) Shaq can rest. He may help them stem the tide of opposing teams coming right back on their own 15 point run which happens so often.
February 9th, 2008 at 12:37 pm
D_G you may be right about what casual fan meant. That regression might return a value similar to what he suggested. Maybe I can run that.
February 9th, 2008 at 12:58 pm
I had a bit of trouble and it might be off but I get a -.21 correlation between foul shots given / fouls committed ratio and winning. So a pretty modest relationship between keeping foul impact down and winning. As casual fan predicted if we followed his line of thought.
February 9th, 2008 at 1:02 pm
Whether game to game correlation is higher or lower would take too much work. That’s enough for me.
February 9th, 2008 at 1:26 pm
Thanks for the read on Wally Z, Speedcat. I live very far out-of-town so I don’t get any post/pre game interviews etc. Just what they broadcast on the league package.
When I did live in Seattle, I played some co-rec soccer with guys like Wally Z in that they were super intense, but out of sync with the rest of the team. A lot of the time, he really reminds me of that. Maybe its that bushy furrowed brow.
February 9th, 2008 at 1:27 pm
you can get the foul +/- someplace in the yahoo stats. The difference really isn’t a lot, the averages between the Sonics and Suns is pretty small, good teams do know when to use the penalty. There is a story on my blog some place, click on my name to go there. I went on and on about a good foul vs a bad one.
You could also have heard the broadcast last night mention that pj did not want the suns to have more freethrows like last game, well, look at the box score.
teams have weaknesses, that is a sonic weakness
February 9th, 2008 at 1:52 pm
Brian’s post about his kids praying for the Sonics to stay reminded me of my favorite moment of the superbowl last week (the only football game I saw last season).
On one of the three TD’s (I already forget which one), the player lifted the exaulted football upward, arched his back skyward and clearly had a direct, prayful experience with God.
About a half a second later, he found a player on the opposing team, locked facemask to grill in order to talk shit/taunt him upclose and personal.
At that moment, I knew there was a God, because natural selection/evolution could not, on its own have brought the world to such a moment dripping with so much irony.
February 9th, 2008 at 2:40 pm
Joshu@ Says:
get a PG via-FA.
Who’d you have in mind? How often do high quality FA PGs hit the market? How many choose to sign with a team that isn’t a contender? Are you talking about a player that’s on/or barely above the level of Rid-Wat? Even a scrub like Charlie Bell had his contract matched.
http://www.nba.com/bucks/news/CharlieBellSigns_070920.html
“I look at Charlie as that final piece of the puzzle,” said Head Coach Larry Krystkowiak. “Charlie is a consummate pro who gives us versatility at a number of positions. He is a tough, hard-nosed player who never takes the easy way out. I’m really excited about the make-up of our roster as we head into training camp next month.”
The Bucks finished last season with a .34 winning % last season. They’re up to .38 this year… Final piece - LMAO.
Gotta go for the PG in the draft. It isn’t often that you’ll find a great PG playing for a team that didn’t draft him, especially on a non-contender.
February 9th, 2008 at 2:45 pm
Wilcox had a great game, I’m tired of people saying to trade him… get rid of Collision first! That was a nice game until the very end.
February 9th, 2008 at 3:07 pm
Yea I hate those Wizard uniforms, and Melo was unreal.
The Wizards have really collapsed since Caron Butler got hurt……. they had went 24-13 since the 0-5 start and since Butler got hurt theyve lost 7 in a row.
Ouch.
February 9th, 2008 at 3:12 pm
“get a PG via-FA.
Who’d you have in mind? How often do high quality FA PGs hit the market?”
High Quality PG = High FG%
(or so I’ve been told).
Isn’t Alonzo Mourning (career 53% shooter) going to be available next year?
February 9th, 2008 at 3:24 pm
“High Quality PG = High FG%
(or so I’ve been told).
Isn’t Alonzo Mourning (career 53% shooter) going to be available next year? ”
Yeah, I wouldn’t mind watching Zo attempt a “killer crossover” in a Sonics uni next year.
February 9th, 2008 at 3:36 pm
Divine intervention?
I think the best bet is to have an earthquake open up and swallow Key Arena. The feds can pay for Clay’s new palace.
February 9th, 2008 at 3:38 pm
D_G: “Maybe its that bushy furrowed brow. ” LOL, that IS kinda disturbing.
Off Topic: My precinct just went 5-1 Obama to Hillary. Yay!
February 9th, 2008 at 3:43 pm
I usually don’t watch college basketball. I attempted to watch the second half of the WSU - USC game now. Have given up. Is there a rule in college basketball that no more than 3 minutes can go off the game clock between timeouts? The college game is unwatchable. One timout after another after another. Cut the number of timeouts in half, and it might be semi-entertaining.
The reason I watched this game was to see OJ Mayo. Is this kid really supposed to be a lottery pick? So far this season Mayo is shooting 44% from the field and 37% on 3’s. He has more turnovers than assists. From a point guard, these are not good numbers. If any team is stupid enough to take Mayo as a lottery pick, they are taking a huge gamble. Remember Durant shot 47% from the field as a freshman, and Durant is currently shooting 40% and 29% on 3’s in the NBA. I would not take a gamble on OJ Mayo with a lottery pick. Maybe take a chance on him late in the first round or in the 2nd round.
February 9th, 2008 at 4:06 pm
BREAKING NEWS: Wally Szcerbiak is nominated for the NBA academy award best act of the year.
His puzzled look on his face after “unknowingly calling a time-out” was, according to 2002 winner Vlade Divac, “an outstanding post-moderistic performance of human confusion, fear, and anger”.
When asked who helped him through this fantastic acting, Sczcerbiak refered to a memo from the ownership group to tank the season by all means neccessary.
February 9th, 2008 at 4:10 pm
Mr. Baker’s post on fouls (second post down)
http://theseattlesupersonics.blogspot.com/search?q=foul
February 9th, 2008 at 4:12 pm
“Off Topic: My precinct just went 5-1 Obama to Hillary. Yay!” {speedcat}
Where’s the love for former U.S. Senator Mike Gravel?
Anyhow, I’m voting for Congressman Ron Paul (R-TX) in the Washington Republican primary — even though I absolutely detest some of his paleolibertarian stances (e.g., social conservatism & anti-immigration), since my ideological values are located somewhere in between anarcho-capitalism and minarchism on the political spectrum of libertarianism — but that’s just me.
“The reason I watched this game was to see OJ Mayo. Is this kid really supposed to be a lottery pick? So far this season Mayo is shooting 44% from the field and 37% on 3’s. He has more turnovers than assists. From a point guard, these are not good numbers. If any team is stupid enough to take Mayo as a lottery pick, they are taking a huge gamble.” {The Big Dipper}
I’m also not a fan of O.J. Mayo; nonetheless, it’s kind of easy to foresee Kevin McHale selecting Mayo — who’d consequently be paired with Randy Foye in the Minnesota Timberwolves’ backcourt — during the 2008 NBA Draft. That decision would ultimately backfire on McHale, too, but he’s made dumber decisions in the past.
February 9th, 2008 at 4:21 pm
Picking up a free agent PG is indeed hard especially in this city far from where most are from or many want to be and at a decent price. I don’t see an obvious great obtainable candidate better than current. I might go for some but it is Presti’s call.
It will probably be PG via draft but it doesnt have to be using a very top pick. They could trade down or use their 2nd 1st rounder for PG if they don’t feel super strong about the very top PG names. There is some depth at PG this year. I am not qualified to suggest a pecking order among them.
February 9th, 2008 at 4:23 pm
“Who’d you have in mind? How often do high quality FA PGs hit the market? How many choose to sign with a team that isn’t a contender?”
Well, first off, you are acting like we are going to see this same exact team for the next few years. Trades will be made, role players will be brought on via-free agency…point being, this team will improve. Plus, I don’t buy the whole “no quality PG will want to come here” schpeel. I don’t have anyone in mind at this point, but honestly, I just don’t want to see another young kid come in at a vital position so that you troll-like wannabe’s can rip him apart with statistical overkill and then whine and complain about how bad things are going. My goodness gracious folks.
February 9th, 2008 at 4:39 pm
If they pick a PG based on fit with major running game and running game fails to deliver what they need it to that will be a set back. Can running game work for us as constituted or the way they are headed? I remain skeptical of running success in NBA without a star vet PG. For a rookie to come and run and produce a high efficiency offense would be a tall order.
Of 10 fastest paced teams 5 are storng on offensive efficency, 4 are near average and 1 is poor. 2 of the 4 strong have star vet PGs- Phoneix and Golden State. Jerry Sloan / young but very mature Deron Wiliams achieved it. I guess the Magic and the Lakers too though they had help from vet PGs in the mix. Notice all the young prospect PGs of recent years not on the list of good at running?
Other young PGs are good but the team plays slow. If they go draft on PG they need good at running with low turnovers and have a proven outside game in addition to strong driving ability.
February 9th, 2008 at 4:43 pm
If they stick to trying to run.
To me I’d take 30th ranked offense as a serious indictment on the running system and I’d change the system, players or coach or some combo.
February 9th, 2008 at 4:47 pm
“I don’t have anyone in mind at this point, but honestly, I just don’t want to see another young kid come in at a vital position so that you troll-like wannabe’s can rip him apart with statistical overkill and then whine and complain about how bad things are going. My goodness gracious folks.” {Joshu@}
It should bolster your moody disposition to know that I like Derrick Rose. As it is, Rose combines the defensive fortitude of a prime Gary Payton, the playmaking stylings of Baron Davis, and the freakish athleticism of a young Steve Francis — as is noted by his ability to finish strong at the hoop — which is a stunning mixture of skills. Rose, moreover, doesn’t have any fatal flaws — even though his high rate of turnovers and tendency to be too unselfish at times are slight concerns — as a result, he’s one of the top prospect in college basketball.
February 9th, 2008 at 4:57 pm
speedcat, my precinct went for Obama 4-2
I am an alternate delicate.
there were many, many people.
February 9th, 2008 at 5:02 pm
GP are you wit’me? Says:
February 9th, 2008 at 4:06 pm
“BREAKING NEWS: Wally Szcerbiak is nominated for the NBA academy award best act of the year.
His puzzled look on his face after “unknowingly calling a time-out” was, according to 2002 winner Vlade Divac, “an outstanding post-moderistic performance of human confusion, fear, and anger”.
LOL…. Wally Z attacked by a rare form of profound existential fragmentation! I wonder if he’ll make it out alive?
February 9th, 2008 at 5:05 pm
Cool Baker… what general area is that? I’m North Beacon Hill.
I say Obama takes this town like a buffalo herd trampling a field full of slimy, wet cigars.
February 9th, 2008 at 5:07 pm
The vote in my precinct (Magnolia) was 45-18 in favor of Obama, yet they initially wanted to award two delegates to each candidate. Chaos ensued, higher powers were consulted, and Obama won 3-1. I say he takes at least 60% statewide.
February 9th, 2008 at 5:08 pm
Spurs played T Parker heavy from start but slow his entire career.
Jazz transitioned under D Williams from very slow in year 1 to average in year 2 to moderately fast in year 3. That would make more sense to me with a young PG than run a lot right away.
Lakers played fast in spite of Farmar’s youth because they had Kobe and then added Fish.
Magic were fast under S Francis but when Nelson took over they slowed to near bottom on pace. A coaching choice to be sure not soley based on Nelson’s youth of course but they are playing fast with Nelson in year 4.
Palying PG well in NBA is tough for young guys. Playing fast and well seems doubly hard. For PGs, wings, bigs. To easy to make mistakes or get burned.
February 9th, 2008 at 5:09 pm
Is Jose Calderon considered a “star”? I would love to have him.
What about Mo Williams from Milwaukee? He’d be a definite upgrade at point guard.
Maybe Phoenix would consider trading Barbosa, since they have Nash. They seem to be trying to win right now, and not worry about 3 or 4 years down the road. Wilcox, and Ridnour (to back up Nash) might appeal to them for Barbosa. Would give them a very powerful front line.
February 9th, 2008 at 5:09 pm
I agree in general about the “trying to run” comments, though I think a big problem for them is that the running idea is ok, but they do not have a very good grip on playing a good half court game when other teams take away transition offense. A team can not excel at one without at least average at the other. If you can not put 5 guys on the floor that can play one style, and enough other guys to counter with another style when teams take away what you want to do.
February 9th, 2008 at 5:23 pm
speedcat, 46th district, Bitter Lake.
This about the last thing I will say on this, it is not why people are here. I just wanted you all to know that I did wear my Sonics sweatshirt, I did mention to a few people that Obama turned away a many people yesterday and that an indoor facility that only holds 17 thousand might not be big enough with or without the Sonics.
Anyway, this state went for Pat Robertson and Jesse Jackson in 1980, red on one side, purple on the other, with all kinds around the edges.
Enough from me on this.
February 9th, 2008 at 5:34 pm
Dipper, from everything I’ve read, Colangelo will pay whatever the price is to re-sign Calderon.
Mo Williams is a bit of an enigma to me. Great stats but doesn’t play the part of getting his teamates involved. He’s one of those “I’ll take care of me” types. Perhaps on a different team he could become more of a floor leader rather than a good stat producer. But he’s certainly no free agent. Rather he has a very long contract that pays him over $9mil his final year.
Jannero Pargo gets little playing time stuck behind Chris Paul, but whenever I’ve watched him play he always looks like he is smart and savvy and knows how to execute plays. He’s got a players option for $2mil next season. As a backup he’s perfect. Like Antonio Daniels was or Kevin Ollie was when they were here. But not as the starter.
So free agency is a tough place to find the starting pointguard for Seattle. They either pick a draftee and go with him or they trade the pick completely(not down in order) to get an experienced pointguard like Kirk Hinrich. I don’t see any other way. I don’t see any current Sonic that is going to land the Sonics a highend pointguard in a trade other than Durant( and we know that ain’t happening).
February 9th, 2008 at 5:36 pm
Baker/ Sam K: One of my tenants said she was at the Obama event at the Key and that the news media didn’t get one critical aspect: there may have been 3000 waiting outside the Key, but during the event, many many more came and then left (didn’t hang around) as the event was closed very early on.
Yes, turnout was like 92 caucusgoers in my precinct, where last pres caucus only 15 people showed! Obama is bringing them out nationwide, esp in red states and swing states:
http://egan.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/02/06/obama-the-shock-of-the-red/index.html
Cool Sam K - sounds like he’s kicking butt out there in the Emerald City.
Sorry all for the OT everyone, I’m just really excited about this. Last post from me too on this. I’ll go vent elsewhere!
Cheers
February 9th, 2008 at 5:36 pm
Well, are there any college point guards who look like lottery picks? I don’t think Mayo is the answer.
February 9th, 2008 at 5:37 pm
Crow, that’s fun, you read my mind–I was thinking correlation to winning of ratio of foul shots/foul. The relationship is a little stronger than I expected, stronger than rebounding rate if I remember your figures correctly. This definitely is a sign of intelligence/awareness and a component of good defense! No surprise the Sonics are 24th.
February 9th, 2008 at 6:00 pm
D_G gets credit for teasing out what made sense / what you meant. I did the legwork. I was a bit reluctant but you asked and D_G’s interest and assistance tipped me over to doing it. Your sense of it was in the right range.
Sonics do indeed still have work to do on the fouling dimension of the game. Much more than their FT/FG defensive ratio suggests- 12th best in NBA. They commit fouls about 17th most. Their timing on fouling at 24th. Opponent FTs made looks like about 18th most.
February 9th, 2008 at 6:04 pm
Wilcox is averaging 17 and 10 the last 5 games, 14 and 8 in the last 10 games. Not bad! Seems like most folks here see him being traded as his trade value is likely up currently. But I agree with those who’ve stated that with a solid defensive center, and at least 25 mins/gm, he’ll be able to make his game more consistent.
Collison is averaging 9 and 9 on the season. (Wilcox is 13 and 7). Seems true what someone said that the two will not fare well going forward if they have to share mins at the PF, once our C situation becomes more defined. Seems it will with Petro’s improvements, KT still on the payroll, and Swifty’s probable return.
For a very simplistic way to view this: Do we keep Wilcox for the extra scoring threat of 4 pts/game, and lose 2 rebs and lots of defense, or do we keep Collison and hope someone else can fill in the scoring deficit?
February 9th, 2008 at 6:18 pm
After this season Collison is signed on for 3 more - Wilcox for 1 more -very similar money.
I expect the Sonics to deal Wilcox this month or next summer - His contract will be easier to move - he is young - demonstrates some skills, so many teams will be attracted to his upside along with the low risk of only having 1 year at 6.75 million next year.
I’m fine with dealing CW. He is capable of good hoops but is inconsistent and he might be a pain to sign after next year. His best hoops came 2 years ago when playing for a contract - I expect similar efforts from him next year - wherever he is - but he could be a guy who someone easily overpays for & then are frustrated with a long deal with a guy who is underperforming.
February 9th, 2008 at 6:23 pm
Thanks DK I didnt realize Pargo had a player option. He might be a decent candidate. I don’t know his game firsthand but I liked his stats enough I traded for him in a fantasy league. He will probably want near or full MLE and pretty big minutes. Not sure how Seattle sells him on coming though. New Orleans probably will try to keep him but he could get away to somewhere.
28 years might just be young enough. It is also old enough to now know the league. Fit in to pretty good team defense. 1 on 1 is ok to a little weaker than average. I’d be ok with him for 25 minutes if he’d take that and they moved one. Not that it would be big change but it is a chance to change. Does he run the break well?
Ther emight be a chance they could get Hinrich in offseason or next season if team is still sputtering . 27 yrs old. In my mind he is pretty close to the minimum you need to do well. Average team and 1 on 1 defender this year.
But honestly I assume that Bennett/Presti will not pay big bucks to anyone new for awhile until they prove otherwise.
February 9th, 2008 at 6:29 pm
Big contracts awarded in summer 2006 were before the sale and mostly or entirely old regime decisions and even if Bennett nodded ok it was pre-Presti and pre-blow-up. They may well go cheap til summer 09 or 10.
February 9th, 2008 at 6:31 pm
I consider the Thomas deal a special exception until it is followed by a second new spending acquisition.
February 9th, 2008 at 6:31 pm
As Collison’s MPG increases, his annual averages are leaning toward the 10/10 guy. But his FG% is declining over the same period. Increased mins, however, have not led to increased PFs, which is a great sign for Nick.
I’m concerned about the FG% esp given that we’ll need to rely on someone else to pull in more scoring without Wilcox. Clearly with any trade the team makeup will change substantially, but at least at the PF we’ll need extra production absent Nick stepping out of his shoes and becoming something he isn’t today.
February 9th, 2008 at 6:32 pm
damn it - two posts in moderation today on this thread. What did I do??
February 9th, 2008 at 6:42 pm
Sonics PF-C positions 23rd in scoring. 1st in rebounding. 20th on assists, 12th on FG%, 20th on blocks, 14th on steals, 12th on turnovers, 26th on FTAs, 19th on the crude NBA overall efficency. Maybe if your perimeter was stellar you could live with that but they probably need to upgrade. Change is easier than upgrade. Moving Wilcox and moving down for at least awhile is moving dow and a gamble to the bounce back. Moving Wilcox and moving up pretty quickly would suggest Presti is good. So make a good move Sam.
February 9th, 2008 at 6:45 pm
Dipper I don’t know who the keepers are but of top 8 PGs in draft i think (without checking in detail) past history would suggest there might 2-3 good ones in that mix at best, a couple average, and a couple of disappontments.
February 9th, 2008 at 6:48 pm
The reason I like Calderon…he is a tempo guy…am I off-base when I say that the guy can run the full court and the half court offense?
February 9th, 2008 at 7:00 pm
Assuming Sonics let Thomas go and keep Wilcox/Collison can they backfill for Thomas’ 7.5 pts 8.8 rebounds in 25.4 minutes?
Petro per 48 minutes scores amost 20% more but rebounds about 12% less.
Swift and Sene really just guesses.
Wilcox and Collison might be able to take more minutes though their productivity might drop off. Currently Wilcox scores about 60% more per minute but rebounds about 20% less. Collison scores about 20% more and rebounds about 5% less overall (and actually better on offensive glass by 25%)
Without Thomas Sonics probably improve big man scoring rank and lose some of their rebounding edge. The other stats would be affected but I didn’t check.
February 9th, 2008 at 7:18 pm
“Without Thomas Sonics probably improve big man scoring rank and lose some of their rebounding edge. The other stats would be affected but I didn’t check. ” Don’t forget defense. KT plays smart defense on big men, IMO. More Wilcox, Petro and Swift probably equals a dropoff on D.
February 9th, 2008 at 7:30 pm
True and that will offset scoring increase to some degree. Time will tell net effect. The hope is next year is a step up but… losing Thomas probably hurts. Other stuff will have to help and big man improvement isn’t that likely to me without trade or good draftee. Wings maybe there is more reason to hope for improvement. PGs… who knows.
February 9th, 2008 at 8:01 pm
Seattle Weekly video on home page is lame. Nowhere else to complain about it.
February 9th, 2008 at 8:24 pm
Crow, it’s hard to say how Pargo is at running the fast break since the Hornets are not known for being a running team but like Detroit and San Antonio they are a deliberate halfcourt team.
February 9th, 2008 at 8:32 pm
fed up, try going to the story on the Seattle Weekly site, or write the editor of the Weekly, Mike Seely (ratting you out Seely).
the story that the video is a wee bit better than the video.
February 9th, 2008 at 8:44 pm
17,231: attendance in New Orleans tonight.
February 9th, 2008 at 9:04 pm
If anyone were surprisingly able to pry Calderon out of Toronto a sign n trade offer like Ridnour Wilcox and a 1st might do it especially since those 2 player’s contract end in 09 and Colangelo could still be the big player in that free agent pool as he has indicated he wants to be. As opposed to giving Calderon $9+ million for a long time. Doubtful but Presti should work every possibility.
February 9th, 2008 at 9:16 pm
BYC probably screws this trade as is up but the idea that there is some package Colangelo might accept to retain longrun cap flexibility might have a sliver of a chance. Maybe involving a third team.
It is either remote-or nil. Remembering Ford’s status and Calderon’s quality of play I probably shouldn’t have said the door was ajar.
The desire for change and improvement gives hypotheticals appeal. But really the focus should be on what Presti actually does or does not do. 2 weeks of opportunity then another 5 months of waiting.
February 9th, 2008 at 9:49 pm
Joshu@ :
Yes from what i’ve seen with his national team and Toronto, it appears that Calderon is comfortable with both an uptempo and a half-court offense.
Crow :
Calderon is young, is a leader by his words as well as his actions, does not turn the ball over, and shoots 53% 2Pts/45% 3Pts/92% Fts this season. He is not getting anywhere if he is a restricted free agent at the end of the season, which is what I understand.
However, It does not make much sense for Toronto to have so much talent (and soon, money) at the point guard position, since Calderon and TJ Ford most likely can’t play together effectively. So a more realistic goal for Seattle should be to try to get TJ Ford, if he recovers well from his injury.
He is a really good point guard from what I’ve seen, and would in any case be a big upgrade for Seattle.
I’m not too sure what’s wrong with Toronto despite seeing many of their games, so can’t say what they would want in return, but they should be an interested trading partner.
February 9th, 2008 at 9:58 pm
Joshu@ Says:
I just don’t want to see another young kid come in at a vital position so that you troll-like wannabe’s can rip him apart with statistical overkill and then whine and complain about how bad things are going. My goodness gracious folks.
Wait, I thought that was part of the plan? It doesn’t really matter about what we fans think about today, it’s what the team’s going to look like in three or four years that really matters, isn’t it?. Surely you’ve read Presti’s comments about wanting players that will mature together with Durant?
February 9th, 2008 at 10:00 pm
Had not seen your last post before commenting, Crow, so yeah, Ford being a BYC player complicates things a little, but Toronto would probably be happy to package him with Nesterovic and could probably get fair value this way.
Nesterovic could work well in Seattle as a solid defensive-minded center.
But I don’t see what Seattle could offer to Toronto, since they probably would not be interested by Wilcox or Collison. So yeah, a 3rd team would have to be involved. Anyone with any realistic ideas?
February 9th, 2008 at 10:01 pm
But what is the AVG attendance since Dec 1st. That is the only thing that matters. There was a NO sports caster that was keeping track on a blog if I can find it again. I like research that I don’t have to do myself.
February 9th, 2008 at 10:20 pm
good for NO, they should be doing that every night, they are not too far away from allstar break there. They will have to average pretty close to 16k a night to make up for the prior games.
I would like to trade the Suns pick and Watson and move up in the draft. The Rockettes or Raptor pick, or Cavs.
February 9th, 2008 at 10:20 pm
Back from Phoenix and the game last night with several quick observations which might have already been mentioned.
I was 4 rows behind the Supes bench and straight across the court there was a SOS sign being waved. I’m sad I didn’t think of it…..strong work if the owner is out there.
Amazing at eye level how much action takes place above the rim. What incredible athletes.
Wilcox was incredible. His post moves were really strong and he was able to take Amare to the hole without trouble even though Amare appears taller and stronger, which surprised me.
Petro made a couple of great defensive plays and was often clogging things up. I’m sure if Shaq was there he would have been pounded but he was a presence. Good lord he’s improved defensively. I’ve added him with Wilcox to the short list of players on the roster worth keeping.
Durant looked 19, out of the flow and intimidated by Raja Bell despite a hugh size difference. KD looked almost as tall as Petro in warm up and taller than Wilcox or Nick.
Swift’s tat’s are simply not done justice on TV.
February 9th, 2008 at 10:54 pm
I doubt the Rockets make a move before the deadline. If I’m Rick Adelman or Morey, I have to be satisifed at this point considering that their record is 30-20 despite the fact that Tracy McGrady has not played twenty minutes in seventeen games. In those seventeen games, the Rockets were 8-9. With a somewhat healthy Tracy McGrady, the Rockets are 22-11, which is better than the pace they were on last season. Perhaps John Hollinger wasn’t so crazy after all with his Rockets in the Finals prediction.
I wouldn’t find it worthwhile to invest in a backup PG such as Earl Watson after they had already invested so much money and years to a flop in Mike James. If they were really interested in Earl, I suppose the Rockets could offer Steve Francis’s expiring contract and sign Bob Sura (I believe they have retained his rights) in exchange for Watson. Presti would probably take that deal in a heartbeat.
February 9th, 2008 at 11:24 pm
I suppose one thing that John Hollinger didn’t count on when made his “Rockets will make the NBA Finals” prediction is that the Rockets would shoot such a low percentage from a three-point line. They are a high volume three-point shooting team. They actually shot over three more threes per game last season with Jeff Van Gundy as their coach than they are shooting this year with Adelman. The difference is that they were the fifth best three-point shooting team last year but the fifth worst in terms of percentage this season. Luther Head, Shane Battier, and Rafer Alston are all shooting worse from long-range this season than they were last season. That all three of those guys are shooting worse from three is probably a large reason why their offense this year is not as efficient as it last year. If those guys can start knocking down their threes, Houston could very well be a formidable opponent in the playoffs.
February 9th, 2008 at 11:42 pm
The Mariners pitching staff is finally built for championships with Bedard, Felix and Morrow.
February 9th, 2008 at 11:43 pm
The Lakers are the formidable opponent in the playoffs.
February 9th, 2008 at 11:49 pm
“I wouldn’t find it worthwhile to invest in a backup PG such as Earl Watson after they had already invested so much money and years to a flop in Mike James. If they were really interested in Earl, I suppose the Rockets could offer Steve Francis’s expiring contract and sign Bob Sura (I believe they have retained his rights) in exchange for Watson. Presti would probably take that deal in a heartbeat.” {Alex Chan}
The Houston Rockets waived Bob Sura during the off-season, which left the organization owing him the guaranteed portion of his salary (i.e., $1,000,000) for this season; consequently, the Rockets renounced its Bird rights to Sura. The Rockets used all of its mid-level exception this past off-season to sign Luis Scola and Steve Francis, too, so Sura can’t be re-signed to anything more than a minimum-level contract. Francis, by the way, has a player option within his contract for the 2008-2009 season that’s worth $2,624,400.
Anyhow, with Rafer Alston and Aaron Brooks currently doing a patchwork job at point guard, that issue doesn’t need to be dealt with until the upcoming off-season. As it is, though, Daryl Morey ought to quickly focus his attention on acquiring a backup center — as Yao Ming can’t shoulder the entire load and Dikembe Mutombo’s tank is running on fumes — thus, he should attempt to deal Kirk Snyder’s expiring contract to the Golden State Warriors for an unproven, yet talented pivotman in Patrick O’Bryant.
February 10th, 2008 at 12:03 am
“Nesterovic could work well in Seattle as a solid defensive-minded center.
But I don’t see what Seattle could offer to Toronto, since they probably would not be interested by Wilcox or Collison. So yeah, a 3rd team would have to be involved. Anyone with any realistic ideas?” {SunsTzu}
The Seattle Supersonics already have Nick Collison anchoring the interior defense, so Radoslav Nesterovic isn’t someone who Sam Presti should have his eye on at this moment. Right now, I’m still disappointed that a package of Kurt Thomas, Chris Wilcox, a 2008 first-round draft pick (via the Phoenix Suns), and a 2010 first-round draft pick (via the Phoenix Suns) couldn’t net the Supersonics a genuine star in Pau Gasol. Indeed, a tandem of Gasol and Collison would’ve dominated down in the paint.
Regarding Nesterovic, however, the Portland Trailblazers would definitely benefit from his outstanding one-on-one low-post defense to help spell Joel Przybilla at center. At 24 minutes per game apiece, Przybilla and Nesterovic would each stay fresh enough to play at a high level of intensity during every contest. Again, Kevin Pritchard should offer Raef LaFrentz — along with the draft rights of Joel Freeland, Rudy Fernandez, and Petteri Koponen, who are all recent first-round draft picks — to Bryan Colangelo for Nesterovic and Juan Dixon.
February 10th, 2008 at 12:12 am
“Wilcox was incredible. His post moves were really strong and he was able to take Amare to the hole without trouble even though Amare appears taller and stronger, which surprised me.” {swsonicsfan}
Amare Stoudemire is one of the five worst low-post defenders in the NBA — even though he’s still head-’n'-shoulders above Eddy Curry and Al Jefferson in that department — so let’s not blow Chris Wilcox’s performance last night out of proportion. Nonetheless, Wilcox deserves kudos for developing a back-to-the-basket offensive game — which blends swimmingly with his ability to finish strong in transition — this season.
February 10th, 2008 at 12:25 am
Orlando is looking for a PF to spell Lewis…maybe they’d be willing to move some expiring contracts for Wilcox?
February 10th, 2008 at 12:34 am
hey I read that a website has started in okc, opposing the arena improvements, are we behind it?
February 10th, 2008 at 12:55 am
“Orlando is looking for a PF to spell Lewis…maybe they’d be willing to move some expiring contracts for Wilcox?” {courtsense}
For the Orlando Magic, Otis Smith shouldn’t mess with a good thing. Within Stan Van Gundy’s 4-outside/1-inside spread motion offense, Rashard Lewis and Brian Cook have done a splendid job as perimeter oriented power forwards — especially since center Dwight Howard needs his space down in the paint — thus, nobody can fault them. Instead, Smith should acquire a potent shooting guard who can add even more scoring punch and someone to effectively direct the offense at point guard.
http://realgm.com/src_checktrade.php?tradeid=4489204
Voilà, that’d make the Magic a championship contender.
February 10th, 2008 at 1:36 am
Why would we trade Wilcox for expiring contracts? He’s a productive player, young and UNDERPAID by league standards. You don’t move a player like that unless you can get good value in return.
Really, on our entire roster the only players that should be unloaded for expirings are Watson and Ridnour. Everyone else is either a short term contract (including Wally) or reasonably paid. It’s one of the things working in Presti’s favor when it comes to rebuilding- no albatross contracts to move. Even the “bad” contracts like Watson and Luke aren’t horrible compared to what other teams have on their payroll. They play a premium position at a decent level (some might argue this, but I think they’d be an upgrade to some teams) and they only have 2 years left after this one.
Personally, I’d trade either PG for expirings, but I wouldn’t be surprised if they actually had higher value than that around the league. Like maybe expiring + draft pick or included as an asset in a bigger deal.
February 10th, 2008 at 1:58 am
Yeah, Wilcox has a reasonable contract - which is why he’d be attractive to the right team. But he probably doesn’t have a place on this team when his contract expires after next year, so why not move him now for some money to spend elsewhere?
Petro is a much better bargain, especially considering the way he’s been improving lately, and Collison still has 3 more years to go after this - how many PF does a team need anyway?
Wilcox still can’t set a decent pick, defend, or hit a 15-foot jumper. Move him now while he’s on a roll…
February 10th, 2008 at 3:13 am
gentlemen-
if wilcox can score in the paint like he has recently he is a very valuable player, a player you keep.
February 10th, 2008 at 3:38 am
John Hollinger writes in his latest NY Sun article that there are teams interested in Kurt Thomas, but that the asking price could be too high.
He also writes that Wally World to Cleveland would make a lot of sense(they need shooting around LBJ) an proposes a deal that would send Wally to Cleveland and Snow, Newble and their 1st round pick to Seattle.
http://www.nysun.com/article/71016?page_no=2
I wouldn’t mind a deal like that, even though Wally has been solid for us, as Snow is a good vet to have around, while we save some money(Newble is expiring) and get another trade chip with that 1st round pick.
What do you think?
February 10th, 2008 at 6:13 am
Anyone know what happened to beantown?
February 10th, 2008 at 6:16 am
Wally need to go before trade deadline….He cant play anymore for this team and coach…They need to develop Durant and Green…..
February 10th, 2008 at 6:47 am
“Wally need to go before trade deadline….He cant play anymore for this team and coach…They need to develop Durant and Green….. ”
So Wally Word . . . with Wally gone, would you still watch the games?
February 10th, 2008 at 7:51 am
Yes D_G,i like this team but not the coach…I accustomed to watch this team and i like many players:Like,Wilcox,Collison,Thomas,West….I just hope Wally will gone until trade deadline because his place is not here…I would like Miami,Cleveland,Utah or Detroit…I just hope this team will be big for few years with Durant all-start player…That kid will be the best for few seasons…That’s it….
February 10th, 2008 at 9:30 am
Check out Lox’s comments above regarding over/underpriced contracts.
Now consider this:
Winning (at least this year) is about salary structure. Teams that carry players with a salary between 5 million and 8.5 million lose! Teams without such players win!
One-sixth of NBA players are in that price range. Almost all of them play for losing teams.
How many carried by Boston & Denver — 0. Phoenix — 1 (Barbosa). San Antonio — 1 (Berry). Dallas — 1 (Stackhouse). Detriot — 1 (McDyess). Utah (– 1) (Harpering). Lakers — 1 (Radmonivic).
Thirteen teams carry 3 or more. Only Cleveland and Orlando are winning teams. Cleveland is carried by Lebron (and compensate by being one of the highest price teams in the league). Orlando is interesting because their 3 players in this range are in fact truly undervalued based on this year’s performance(Turkoglu and Howard).
Two teams have five players in this price range: Sonics and Knicks.
February 10th, 2008 at 9:41 am
Players that earn 5 to 8.5 million tend to be vets who have proven to be adequate to start, but can go a career without attacting an all star vote from anyone except their immeidate family.
Having them on your team is MUCH, MUCH, MUCH more strongly related to losing, than total salary.
total salary/wins: r = 0.23
#plyrs in $8.5 to 5 mil/wins: r = -.058
February 10th, 2008 at 9:49 am
Bottom line lox:
“Why would we trade Wilcox for expiring contracts?”
Because Wilcox will always be a merely decent or adequate starter. It is better to free up salary to get elite players, and have people who are paid to be role players (or players in their first three years) to fill out the rest of the line-up.
Having the 20th best power forward in the league turns out not to be such a good strategy for winning.
February 10th, 2008 at 9:58 am
Interesting point about the contracts, D_G, definitely thought-provoking.
February 10th, 2008 at 10:00 am
Now consider this:
Winning (at least this year) is about salary structure. Teams that carry players with a salary between 5 million and 8.5 million lose! Teams without such players win!
One-sixth of NBA players are in that price range. Almost all of them play for losing teams.
How many carried by Boston & Denver — 0. Phoenix — 1 (Barbosa). San Antonio — 1 (Berry). Dallas — 1 (Stackhouse). Detriot — 1 (McDyess). Utah (– 1) (Harpering). Lakers — 1 (Radmonivic).
Thirteen teams carry 3 or more. Only Cleveland and Orlando are winning teams. Cleveland is carried by Lebron (and compensate by being one of the highest price teams in the league). Orlando is interesting because their 3 players in this range are in fact truly undervalued based on this year’s performance(Turkoglu and Howard).
Two teams have five players in this price range: Sonics and Knicks.
Interesting thought, which goes to support the NBA is a league for Super Stars. Get 2-3 Superstars on your roster, pay them big and fill in around with youngsters and low paid vets.
One notable oversite in the post above. New Orleans not mentioned. They have two players with salaries in the $5-8.5 million range.
Bobby Jackson - $5.67 million
Mo Peterson - $5.356 million
Lakers have two others just below the metioned level:
Derek Fisher - $4.35 million
Luke Walton - $4.0 million
Phoenix has two others close, one just over and one just under the noted parameters:
Boris Diaw - $9.0 million
Raja Bell - $4.75 million
That Dallas Figure is incorrect. Dallas has three contracts that technically qualify and three others very close range.
Stackhouse - $6.75 million
Jason Terry - $8.287 million
Bradley’s contract still hanging around - $5.2 million
Trenton Hassel - $4.35 million
Eric Dampier - $8.587 million
Josh Howard - $9.0 million
San Antonio has two other very close to range:
Bruce Bowen - $4.125 million
Manu Ginobili - $9.075 million
I guess I’d ask why the $5.0 to $8.5 milllion range is the key? As noted, championship teams tend to have more players closer to this price range than the author lets on.
Just something to note regarding the study.
February 10th, 2008 at 10:07 am
Because Wilcox will always be a merely decent or adequate starter. It is better to free up salary to get elite players, and have people who are paid to be role players (or players in their first three years) to fill out the rest of the line-up.
An expiring contract this offseason isn’t going to get us anything better from the Free Agent market and Wilcox’s contract expires after next season the same time as Channel Z’s. Doesn’t really help the Sonics any to get rid of Wilcox one year earlier and he’d be valuable to many teams. Unless you get a first round pick and/or young talent in addition to the expiring’s I wouldn’t deal Wilcox, rather let him play out his contract.
February 10th, 2008 at 10:14 am
EPX-Anyone know what happened to beantown?
I was wondering the same thing.
February 10th, 2008 at 10:14 am
Wally World, are you russian? Your posts always remind me of the diction of Dolphren lungren(sp) circa Rocky 4.
February 10th, 2008 at 10:28 am
By the way for anyone who cares: the correlation posted above is a typo:
not “-.058″ but should be “-0.58″
Frozenropes is right on the mark that I picked these cut points $8.5 million and $5 million without any real reason except by looking at the players in that range.
February 10th, 2008 at 10:29 am
The high pick with expirings sounds like the kind of deal that could be made. Although I don’t think the money would be spent elsewhere next season unless the Sonics were granted relocation by the league/courts.
February 10th, 2008 at 10:32 am
Interesting comments Frozenropes:
But the salary numbers I have, and the one’s you have do not perfectly match.
My numbers (taken from the ESPN trade machine) have Jason Terry at 8.9 million and Eric Dampier at 10.5 million.
I really don’t understand how these contracts work (or for that matter how the salary cap works) to have any confidence in whether these numbers are accurate.
All I can say, is that according to the salary figures on the trade machine, what I reported above is accurate.
February 10th, 2008 at 10:36 am
Kurt Thomas & Earl Watson
trdae for
Andrei Kirilenko?
February 10th, 2008 at 10:37 am
The high pick with expirings sounds like the kind of deal that could be made.
The Sonics definately need to clean up their roster and PF is one of the positions that needs some more clarity going forward. I do think Wilcox and/or Collison could help playoff bound teams and would only give one up if we were getting a solid young talent that fits our roster needs gong forward and/or the opposing teams first round pick this season to give us more firepower in the draft to manuveur and get who we think fits the core going forward.
February 10th, 2008 at 10:39 am
should be - trade.
With Durant, Kirilenko, Wilcox and Collison starting, well that would be a TON of length.
February 10th, 2008 at 10:41 am
But the salary numbers I have, and the one’s you have do not perfectly match.
My numbers (taken from the ESPN trade machine) have Jason Terry at 8.9 million and Eric Dampier at 10.5 million.
I took mine from HoopsHype. Yours looks more like their “average salary” over the life of the contract. I went with current year salary.
http://hoopshype.com/salaries/dallas.htm
February 10th, 2008 at 10:56 am
Frozenropers Says:
I do think Wilcox and/or Collison could help playoff bound teams and would only give one up if we were getting a solid young talent that fits our roster needs gong forward and/or the opposing teams first round pick this season
Collison being traded instead of Wilcox could be very likely, imo. Collison’s contract doesn’t jive with the 2009 FA plan.
Vinny Says:
well that would be a TON of length.
I think it’s very likely the “evaluations” will continue next season. If Wilcox and/or Collison are moved, it could make way for a twin tower starting line-up of Sene & Petro. Sweet.
February 10th, 2008 at 11:00 am
I think Utah might like this:
http://games.espn.go.com/nba/features/traderesult?players=434~2807~846~1027~2422&teams=25~25~26~26~26&te=&cash=
Anyone else think Utah and Seattle would like it?
February 10th, 2008 at 11:18 am
D_G what is the correlation between having 3+ guys over $8.5 million and winning?
Having a lot of guys between $5-$8.5 million is often a substitute or a block against having 3 over $8.5 mil.
Did any team with a lot of guys between 5 - 8.5 have 3 stars over 8.5? Did they win? Is having 3+ over 8.5 more important than how many you have between 5-8.5?
Sonics have 1 over $8.5. They had 2 with Allen & Lewis. Not enough. But previous owner would not go for 3 stars and the budget necessary.
Mid 90s most successful Sonics before the salary explosion had 5-6 guys paid fairly well and won big. That doesnt seem possible anymore but did any team win well without 2+ stars over 8.5?
February 10th, 2008 at 11:44 am
The count of top rookie contract stars who will eventually get paid big is worth knowing too. There is value in having them in your talent mix but not in your top salary category. Harder to have a very good support cast when all the stars reach full pay for talent. But not impossible.
February 10th, 2008 at 12:09 pm
I do not see a big connection. The list of players D_G posted are not really worth trading for, for the most part, if that helps. The few that are really productive may be products of the systems they are in.
It might be more simple the point at the Knicks salary structure and say “that is bad”, the three star thing requires… Three stars that can and are willing to fit together, like the Spurs that drafted those guys, like the Celtics that traded for two of those guys. It is not too hard to pencil in salary structures that couldresult in enough talent.
(here is an old saw) you have some money and some talent spread throughout the roster, on average the players perform to their contracts, the contracts are mostly around average, your roster is mostly average, no matter who is out on the floor at a given time you are mostly average, getting killed by starter stars on other teams and beating the other teams bench, your rotation is, or could be, 10 or 11 deep (if all are healthy).
The pool of talent should not be evenly spread through a roster, somebody is going to sit while another guy that might not be much if any better plays the average game. The mature, or maturing talent should be pooled into a “rotation” (it’s true) if 7 or 8 guys that are clearly better. The team team, on average has the same amount of talent as before. The players 9-13 are rookie projects that might grow into replacing a talented rotation player, or a vet that is low paid that can give spot rotation minutes as a backup, to the backup, of the talented starter, or expiring contract or mistake. The knicks could fill a roster with mistakes.
pool the talent and salary that goes with it into as few people as it takes to have a rotation of about 8 guys. Let’s call them the pistons.
at the ends of games you need to be able to score two different ways with at least two different guys, three is better, let’s call them the Spurs.
Look at the Sonics rosters over the past decade. GP, Allen, then you have Rashard, drunk Vin, and then a churn of guys that were not a group small enough and talented enough to call a rotation where the starting 5 can have an actual advantage over other teams, McMillan’s last year had an over productive bench make up for not having a consistently productive starting line up that had guys they could go to for scoring at the ends of games that score in different ways.
pool the talent into a rotation of players that compliment each other with talent type and personality.
I am not going to produce any numbers to support this crazy theory.
February 10th, 2008 at 12:20 pm
What a specious argument. Pay three guys more than 8 million and we win??? Not necessarily. Teams with alot of young guys with low salaries do not win in this league.
Wilcox is our entire low post offense. Without him right now we cannot compete. The same is true for Wally. Without Wally’s outside shooting we will not be in another game. I think Wilcox still has alot of upside. Until we land someone better we better hang on to him. Let Swift and Petro mature. With such a young team we need alot of players who are improving.
February 10th, 2008 at 12:22 pm
the count of top rookie stars that have had two big contracts is worth knowing as well, many of those guys are not on the teams that gave them the second big deal. Ray, Iverson, marbury, Kidd, shaq… Price their way out of a salary structure where a team can afford 3 players making big money, the Celtics may be the one, and they are doing this short term with a rookie PG, I do not know if they get out of the second round if they were in the west.
February 10th, 2008 at 12:23 pm
Nearly all the good teams have 3-4 stars paid over $8.5 mil. The least fitting this pattern is Golden State who got Harrington and Jackson on contracts that are moderate but apparently they fit with system and Davis and have done pretty well for Nellie.
February 10th, 2008 at 12:26 pm
The goal is get 3 guys worth big money and win. Paying big money by itself doesnt get it done and I don’t hink anybody is saying be desperate for stars, buy big names, don’t be a critical buyer . At least I am not.
February 10th, 2008 at 12:26 pm
it is not “pay 3 guys”, but have 3 guys that actually “earn” those contracts.
February 10th, 2008 at 12:29 pm
“Sounds yummy. Lusskova or what? ”
vodka monopolova or whatever it’s called from Austria … good stuff!
February 10th, 2008 at 12:36 pm
The NFL represents how a player’s body can break down and their salary isn’t guaranteed over the length of the deal, providing the team some insurance against the financial hardships a salary cap can cause. Atleast Presti is aware of the importance of salary flexibility, but I doubt he’ll be able to trade for much more than picks until the offseason.
If defense is the name of the game, I’d rather have Kirilenko over Artest. What about sending a pg and Wilcox for Hinrich? I still like Shannon Brown and Lebron is campaining for Kidd or a suitable pg.
February 10th, 2008 at 12:49 pm
as importantly, recognize who those guys are early, who are not those guys that do not fit and move them asap. The old Sonics management would hold onto and hope that some player would be something more, Flip Murray, Radman, if you have Rashard and you are starting luke, and flip has a huge bunch of games playing in place of Allen at SG, I do not know why anybody thought that means he would become a PG.
those two for example did not really have future roster spots, and they both were not going to accept playing backup or play well out of position. Not bad players, but they did not fit the roster, did not take advantage of other roles to the betterment of the team and themselves.
it is hard for younger players to play other roles, so move them for better fitting parts when you see they are not going to be a long term player, or understand early that they are role players.
February 10th, 2008 at 1:01 pm
I threw Hinrich’s name out there last week, he is over paid at 12 mil, I think about that if the ping pong ball yin/yang hands us a lower pick and we are faced with drafting a talented front court player, and not a PG.
A PG, Wilcox, that crappy Suns pick would exchange enough longer term salary to make some sense.
I do not know if the Bulls are ready to retool, or if Hinrich could really be had.
I would rather keep wilcox and SAT him if I do not want him at the end of next year. If we could use a PG and the Suns pick to move that pick up in the draft I would go for that.
February 10th, 2008 at 1:05 pm
Mr Baker Says:
I do not know if they get out of the second round if they were in the west.
The Celtics-Spurs game is on right now and in Pop’s interview he said every player on the Celtics brings it on both ends of the floor unlike any team he’s seen. They sure look like the real deal and on a mission.
February 10th, 2008 at 1:07 pm
Of course, there’s no team that’s a sure bet to get past the 2nd round in the west.
February 10th, 2008 at 1:08 pm
Steve Says:
“…vodka monopolova or whatever it’s called from Austria … good stuff! ”
I shall have to sample it!
Now which of them Seattle-area liquor stores is open on Sundays again?
February 10th, 2008 at 1:11 pm
As a rookie, Big Baby is already playing better post defense than Wilcox ever has. Hatin’ that trade more than ever…
February 10th, 2008 at 1:40 pm
The Celtics are now 16-0 against the western conference.
February 10th, 2008 at 2:37 pm
“If defense is the name of the game, I’d rather have Kirilenko over Artest. What about sending a pg and Wilcox for Hinrich? I still like Shannon Brown and Lebron is campaining for Kidd or a suitable pg.” {phenom}
Andrei Kirilenko is the most overrated defender in the NBA. As a weakside help defender, Kirilenko puts up tons of empty stats and looks shiny doing it; however, his man-to-man defense is shoddy, which is why he’s frequently burned by his opponents.
Notwithstanding Ron Artest’s insane mentality, he’s an exceptional one-on-one perimeter and post defender — which makes him a unique player due to his combination of deceptive quickness and immense strength — so let’s not discredit him.
February 10th, 2008 at 2:46 pm
“I threw Hinrich’s name out there last week, he is over paid at 12 mil, I think about that if the ping pong ball yin/yang hands us a lower pick and we are faced with drafting a talented front court player, and not a PG.” {Mr. Baker}
Kirk Hinrich has a deescalating contract and, moreover, is set to earn $10,000,000 next season. If the Seattle Supersonics can’t net Derrick Rose in the 2008 NBA Draft, then Sam Presti should offer Chris Wilcox and Luke Ridnour to the Chicago Bulls for Hinrich and Thabo Sefolosha. That trade could be consummated as early as 7/1/2008, which is the day that both Hinrich and Ridnour lose their base-year compensation status. Sans Hinrich, I can’t think of any worthwhile point guard who’ll possibly be available via trade or free agency; therefore, selecting Rose in ‘08 NBA Draft is of the utmost importance.
February 10th, 2008 at 2:48 pm
“Anyone else think Utah and Seattle would like it?” {Vinny}
No, Kevin O’Connor and Jerry Sloan would hate it.
February 10th, 2008 at 2:51 pm
“Collison being traded instead of Wilcox could be very likely, imo. Collison’s contract doesn’t jive with the 2009 FA plan.”
Nick Collison is a base-year compensation player this season; thus, it’s highly unlikely that he’ll be dealt this season. Besides, Collison shouldn’t be traded anywhere. Again, Chris Wilcox is the one who should be traded for countless reasons, which is something that I’ve discussed several times and feel no need to rehash it.
February 10th, 2008 at 2:52 pm
No Brew,i am serbian and i like only Wally and i watching only basketball…
February 10th, 2008 at 2:57 pm
Randy my understanding is that the site against massive corporate subsidy with absolutely zero private contribution in OKC is a local OKC effort of 4 people there.
February 10th, 2008 at 3:48 pm
Celtics looked great today. Their style is not always pretty, but interior defense, rebounding and multifaceted offense all contribute to a winning team. This without their best player. They have some kind of team chemistry going where mediocre bench players are playing above their heads. Winning, along with the confidence it inspires combined with the confidence of having superstars on your side all are coming together for them. It still requires buy-in from these perifery players and they sure look like they’ve bought it hook line and sinker.
Can’t count the spurs out as they are following their pattern of recent years in laying low during the dog days of winter.
February 10th, 2008 at 4:12 pm
Guys i just bet that the Lakers will win more than 9 points and they won 104-94….I am waiting for 3 more games to get some cash…
February 10th, 2008 at 4:12 pm
Look at Washington and their short front line featuring 6-7 John Brockman. They are just abusing Kevin Love on the glass. Love is no 6-10 Center.
February 10th, 2008 at 4:21 pm
“Look at Washington and their short front line featuring 6-7 John Brockman. They are just abusing Kevin Love on the glass. Love is no 6-10 Center.” {Patches Pal}
Yeah, Kevin Love is really a 6′8″ power forward. Love should still thrive in the NBA, though, with the Philadelphia 76ers looking like the best fit for him. With Samuel Dalembert and Love manning the interior, the 76ers would have a young, vigorous frontline.
February 10th, 2008 at 6:05 pm
Playing the Monday morning Aussie-time catchup…
- Wilcox always plays well against Phoenix. It’s in his blood. I’ll wait until he suits up against a couple more defensive teams before I’m ready to anoint him as being untradable. I fancy he’ll just revert to being his inconsistent self.
- If I were Presti, the PG I’d be after in the short-term is Andre Miller. Should be easy to pry loose from Philly, not the worst contract, veteran presence. Of course, all this may change given the draft order. I’d certainly be waiting until then before I try.
- Wally took the blame for the TO call in a post-match interview. Said as a veteran it was really his job to know such things. But I agree with what others have said - the blame lies as much with the other four players on the court for not being able to give him anything to pass to for five seconds. It’s not that hard.
February 10th, 2008 at 7:03 pm
Just checked the schedule . . . Sonics aren’t on the bill in ’till Wednesday????
What the hell am I supposed to do in the meantime?
February 10th, 2008 at 7:07 pm
Crow:
BTW I checked and the negative effect of salary concentration between 5 and 8.5 million is stronger than the positive effect of salary above 8.5 million.
To be honest, I don’t think it means anything. But I find it surprising.
As for why I was interested in this in the first place is Lox’s comment that Wilcox was fair value (or a good value) and so I was curious to see who else was paid comparably. I was struck just looking at the list of comparable sized contracts just how many of those players were on bottom dweller teams.
February 10th, 2008 at 7:42 pm
Interesting topic on the 5-8.5 mil guys. Maybe it reinforces the “its a superstars league” concept, where the expensive guys are really worth the extra money. Also it probably is true that lower priced players in the 2-5 mil range are easy to come by and probably hungry to establish themselves as higher paid guys. Look how hard Wilkins has tried… well okay not the best example.
February 10th, 2008 at 7:45 pm
Interesting. Thanks for that check.
February 10th, 2008 at 7:51 pm
Remind me if I’m right here:
Utah was looking rather dismal a few years back with AK47 and a lot of nothing. But somehow they managed to in Boozer who turned out to be an elite power forward.
The combination of signing Boozer and Okur (sp) and drafting D. Williams has made Utah a very competitive squad.
So, my question is who is the next Carlos Boozer?
February 10th, 2008 at 8:04 pm
D_G Says:
Just checked the schedule . . . Sonics aren’t on the bill in ’till Wednesday????
What the hell am I supposed to do in the meantime?
It’s February… trade talk, trade talk and more trade talk.
February 10th, 2008 at 8:06 pm
So, my question is who is the next Carlos Boozer?
Who’s the next guy to give their current organization the shaft?
February 10th, 2008 at 8:32 pm
“So, my question is who is the next Carlos Boozer? ”
LeMarcus Aldridge? Tyrus Thomas?
February 10th, 2008 at 8:33 pm
Okafor probably would be willing but it will be difficult to get free.
February 10th, 2008 at 9:21 pm
Is the Beasely kid fro K-State a “Boozer” level player? Will he be a stud?
February 10th, 2008 at 9:23 pm
Is the Beasely kid fro K-State a “Boozer” level player? Will he be a stud?
Good chance to be much bettr.
February 10th, 2008 at 9:36 pm
Hope everyone watched the UW/UCLA game so you cuold see why I’d be very disappointed if the Sonics drafted Kevin Love
February 10th, 2008 at 9:38 pm
Who’s the next guy to give their current organization the shaft?
- What?!?!? Are you honestly saying that being complete two faced to an old blind man who is only trying to help you out is a BAD thing?
Hmmmm…ya….that was pretty messed up.
February 10th, 2008 at 9:38 pm
D_G Says:
February 10th, 2008 at 7:03 pm
“Just checked the schedule . . . Sonics aren’t on the bill in ’till Wednesday????
What the hell am I supposed to do in the meantime? ”
Most folks, it appears, are staying away from the sonics boards. It’s going to be a long half week.
February 10th, 2008 at 9:40 pm
Creepy parallel between the top two players in the 1990 draft and the top two in the 2008 draft:
Beasley = Derrick Coleman (versatile left-handed PF with great mid-range jumper and questionable work ethic)
Derrick Rose = Gary Payton (athletic, tough 6′4″ PG with questionable jumpshot)
February 10th, 2008 at 10:08 pm
“So, my question is who is the next Carlos Boozer?” {D_G}
In the college ranks, Blake Griffin is currently the most similar to Carlos Boozer.
“Creepy parallel between the top two players in the 1990 draft and the top two in the 2008 draft:
Beasley = Derrick Coleman (versatile left-handed PF with great mid-range jumper and questionable work ethic)
Derrick Rose = Gary Payton (athletic, tough 6′4″ PG with questionable jumpshot)” {Sam K}
I noticed that correlation, too.
February 10th, 2008 at 10:50 pm
I see my comment about Wilcox earlier sparked some discussion, I’ll just clarify what I meant. I don’t view Wilcox as untradeable at all, someone pointed it out and its true that there’s a logjam in the front court thats only going to get worse now that Petro’s coming on and Swift returning from injury. Also, I don’t think Green can play SF effectively from what I’ve seen, not on offense. So yeah, someone has to go and if its Wilcox, then so be it.
That doesn’t mean dump him for expiring contracts though. If Wilcox is the one to go, you have to get value back- either picks or comparable players at a different position. He’s still a valuable asset in the league given his production and contract, regardless of whether he fits on this team or not.
On a related note, I personally don’t advocate blindly chasing after cap-space the way some on here do. If you need to clear room to re-sign your superstars, or if you’re up against the luxury tax it’s one thing. But how many times do big free agent acquisitions actually pay off? It seems more often than not fans get super excited about having capspace when in reality all it buys them is the right to overpay the next Larry Hughes or Ben Wallace. (Not to mention Rashard, who I think will be the worst contract in the league in 3 years…)
To me, the absolute worst thing for a rebuilding team to do would be to sign a max-level FA. True franchise players never reach free agency, they’re either re-signed or traded before that. The teams with room to spend in free agency each year almost always end up overpaying for second-tier guys and screwing up their future. That’s why I’m not in favor of all these trade proposals to blow the thing up and trade the whole team for expiring contracts. I’d much rather hold onto assets and wait for the right trade opportunity to come along. In the meantime, stockpile draft picks and avoid signing any big longterm contracts unless its a proven superstar.
February 10th, 2008 at 10:52 pm
Woah, sorry for the rant. Didn’t realize it got that long. Hopefully someone reads it anyway…
February 10th, 2008 at 11:00 pm
Creepy parallel between the top two players in the 1990 draft and the top two in the 2008 draft:
Beasley = Derrick Coleman (versatile left-handed PF with great mid-range jumper and questionable work ethic)
I’d have to disagree there…..Beasley is head and shoulders ahead of where Coleman was at this point in his college career…..heck he’s way outperforming Coleman’s senior year.
Beasley’s offensive game is leagues ahead of where Coleman’s was when he came out…….Beasley’s outside game is way ahead of Coleman’s and I’d say Beasley is considerably more athletic than Coleman was.
Rose’s outside jumper may be questionable, however Payton’s was non-existent when he came into the league.
February 10th, 2008 at 11:21 pm
“Beasley’s offensive game is leagues ahead of where Coleman’s was when he came out…….Beasley’s outside game is way ahead of Coleman’s and I’d say Beasley is considerably more athletic than Coleman was.” {Frozenropers}
Michael Beasley has been compared to Derrick Coleman ’cause he’s reportedly lazy, selfish, unmotivated, and lax on defense. Beasley does have a superior offensive game, though, as Coleman lacked an outside touch over fifteen feet away from the basket.
February 10th, 2008 at 11:22 pm
Vinny, I don’t think the Jazz would trade Kirilenko unless the trade offered them pieces that would actually make them more likely to win a championship this season. I don’t think acquiring Watson, West, and Thomas would help them get any closer to a championship.
However, I believe trading Kirilenko and the Knicks first-round draft pick (which is protected until the 2010 draft) to the Clippers for Corey Maggete and Sam Cassell could possibly make them the favorite. They’d average at least thirty-five free throw attempts per game if they made that trade and possibly eclipse the 110 points per game mark. Their offensive efficiency would be absolutely ruthless and unstoppable.
Their defense would not suffer too serious of a drawback. Kirilenko is not a very good man-to-man defender. His forte was always help defense; yet, he has not been doing a very good job this season with that aspect of defense.
February 10th, 2008 at 11:28 pm
So Frozen, would Beasley now be the favorite in your opinion if the Sonics were to land the #1 pick? I detest college basketball and have watched too little of it this season to form any opinion as to the relative talents of the major draft prospects.
College basketball has recently been an environment more suited for guards to dominate. Isn’t Beasley’s dominance this season in light of this “bias” towards guards just that much greater of a testament to his abilities?
February 10th, 2008 at 11:47 pm
Frozen, I’m not bored enough to get into a debate about the merits of Beasley vs Coleman. Hell, it’s pretty obvious that Beasley is a more impressive prospect. My point was that (at a very superficial level) Beasley and Coleman are similar players. Left-handed big men who can handle the ball, shoot outside and crash the boards. Coleman’s entire career was plagued by criticism of his attitude; similar concerns have already surfaced with respect to Beasley. Yes, Beasley is outperforming Coleman statistically - but does it really make sense to compare college stats in 2008 vs 1990? Nobody left early for the NBA in Coleman’s day. How do you think Beasley’s stats would look if Aldridge, Durant, Julian Wright, J Smith, D Gibson, etc were still playing in the Big 12?
February 10th, 2008 at 11:49 pm
Beasley’s a monster but I don’t want to take any chances on character. If we are fortunate enough to land the top pick and don’t take D-Rose I will put out a bounty for Presti’s head.
February 11th, 2008 at 12:07 am
“Kirilenko is not a very good man-to-man defender. His forte was always help defense; yet, he has not been doing a very good job this season with that aspect of defense.” {Alex Chan}
Unlike Josh Smith, Shawn Marion, and Gerald Wallace, Andrei Kirilenko doesn’t combine his flashiness as a weakside help defender and ability to clog the passing lanes with tenacious one-on-one perimeter defense. Kirilenko also lacks the strength to be occasionally counted on as an interior defender, which is a niche that’s been carved by powerful small forwards like Ron Artest and Caron Butler. All things considered, Kirilenko is far from being the total package on defense.
February 11th, 2008 at 12:12 am
“I do not know if they get out of the second round if they were in the west.”
The same principle could apply to the West. If Detroit and Boston are indeed the two best teams in the NBA, then logically you would also have to doubt if any of the Western Conference teams would get out of the second round in the East.
February 11th, 2008 at 12:36 am
yes, I imagine you could apply the same principal if you ignore the records of the bottom 4 teams that would make the playoffs if they started today. Celtics in the east see a team with a losing record in the first round, in the west 2 teams with winning records would not get in the playoffs.
The battle in the first round is not the same in the east, would not take the same toll on a team.
Then, they move on to the second round.
February 11th, 2008 at 12:46 am
the 8th seed in the east is New Jersey
in the West it is Golden State
Not only would Boston sweep the Nets, but Golden State might sweep the Nets.
February 11th, 2008 at 12:51 am
Mr. Baker, the key word is “out” in the phrase “getting out of the second round.” If all the teams in the West played in the East, it’s conceivable that the highest seed that they would obtain is the #3 seed. Either Boston or Detroit would be the #1 or #2 seed. Thus, if you believe that Boston and Detroit are the two best teams in the NBA, then none of the teams in the West would get out of the second round in the Eastern Conference because they would just lose to Boston or Detroit in the second round.
February 11th, 2008 at 9:03 am
Anybody in favor of removing the East / West divide and just seeding the teams in the playoffs according to W-L record?
The top 16 teams, in order from top to bottom, according to their record.
February 11th, 2008 at 9:15 am
Frozen, I’m not bored enough to get into a debate about the merits of Beasley vs Coleman.
You don’t need to get into any debate, I just think its a bad comparison. As such, I responed so.
Its not the end of the world. You don’t have to get all defensive that someone disagrees with you.
February 11th, 2008 at 9:28 am
So Frozen, would Beasley now be the favorite in your opinion if the Sonics were to land the #1 pick? I detest college basketball and have watched too little of it this season to form any opinion as to the relative talents of the major draft prospects.
I have Beasley and Rose as 1a and 1b and go back and forth on who is going to be the better pro on a weekly basis. Beasley’s game is so advanced for his age its hard to make a comparison and he can play both the 3 and the 4 positions well. The only real knock on Beasley at this point is the rumors about his attitude…….I can’t speak first hand regarding those, so I’ll just go off the talent and what poses the biggest matchup problems at the next level.
My view of how the Sonics need to build a contender would be the next key part needs to be a dominant post player to compliment Durant’s perimeter game as I believe any team that wants to be dominant for a long period needs a player than you can go to in the post and score at a high percentage when the game is on the line.
I’ve only seen a small handful of Rose’s games this season and even fewer of Beasley’s, however Beasley is such a dominant player and has the kind of inside / outside game that would be a matchup nightmare at the NBA level for opposing PF’s and or SF’s.
This week, if I had the choice, I’d probably pick Beasley and then look to trade Wilcox and one of our guards for a veteran PG. Next week I could feel differently.
February 11th, 2008 at 9:57 am
Did I mention I’d also make it a high priority to get a new head coach?
February 11th, 2008 at 10:00 am
I would go for Beasley with the first pick. He may be the only player in this draft that deserves the high expectations that Durant and Oden received. He should be a Carmelo Anthony scorer his whole career. I expect him to play SF.
Jeff Green could be traded for a young PF. We need size and reliable scoring out of that position. I would do a deal for Yi Jianlian or Charlie Villaneuva. Milwaukee needs a SF. It is a deal that works for both teams. I might also trade for a high first and try again. Green is versatile but seems to lack the killer instinct at this point. He should be a good journeyman his whole career.
Derrick Rose is way over rated. He may slide down the board. 4 apg does suggest to me that he is ready for the NBA. He plays on a Memphis team with alot of talent that can finish for him. He just isn’t dominating at this point in his career. He could be a big disappointment for 2 or 3 years while he learns to play PG in the D league.
If we cannot get Beasley, then I like Brook Lopez. We could keep Green and hope he improves at SF. Lopez looks like a beast at the 4. He rebounds well, plays defense and has an outside shot. I expect Brook Lopez and Ryan Anderson will move up while the PG’s go down the board.
February 11th, 2008 at 10:08 am
no Alex, my point is that Boston would be more tired, worn, and exposed, after facing a tougher team in the first round if they were in the west.
10 teams in the west have winning records, 5 in the east.
February 11th, 2008 at 10:22 am
Did I mention I’d also make it a high priority to get a new head coach?
- If we got a new coach, who would we have around to “evaluate” the team for the first 40 games of next year?
February 11th, 2008 at 10:38 am
“Nick Collison is a base-year compensation player this season; thus, it’s highly unlikely that he’ll be dealt this season. Besides, Collison shouldn’t be traded anywhere. Again, Chris Wilcox is the one who should be traded for countless reasons, which is something that I’ve discussed several times and feel no need to rehash it.”
I think this is only the second time in the history of this board that I am going to say this…but I AGREE 110%. And feel free to rehash….
“Joshu@ :
Yes from what i’ve seen with his national team and Toronto, it appears that Calderon is comfortable with both an uptempo and a half-court offense.”
Cool, cool. I have only seen him play live once, but that was what really stuck with me after watching him play. Maybe I am going out on somewhat of a limb here, but he reminds me in a lot of ways of Kevin Johnson. Later.
February 11th, 2008 at 10:43 am
It’s funny to see how much stock we put into how whether Beasley or Rose should be the pick when in reality there’s a higher chance that Seattle will be picking in the #3-5 range.
Memphis is reportedly trying to trade Mike Miller now for expirings. They should be freefalling soon. Miami, even with Marion look like they will be below the Sonics. Dwayne Wade just was quoted that he has lost a step this season and is still recovering from his injury. Minnesota certainly don’t have any trade pieces to make a big second half charge. Seattle meanwhile seem to have at least got some control back and haven’t been blown out lately.
So no Beasley or Rose to concern ourselves with. So now who ?
February 11th, 2008 at 10:52 am
So no Beasley or Rose to concern ourselves with. So now who ?
Obviously, all the draft talk is way premature and really doesn’t mean much until after the lottery when teams find out where they will actually be picking. But since there is a lottery and the team with the worst records isn’t always the team that picks first its worth having the dicsussion. Just as it is worth having the discussion of who the Sonics should/might pick if they don’t land one of the top two picks in the lottery.
February 11th, 2008 at 11:01 am
Here’s my stab at what I would like to see, even though like most of us armchair Gm’s it’s a bit of a fantasy that it could happen.
I really like Rodney Stuckey. Before he broke his wrist he was playing great as a rookie. Since he’s come back he’s struggled a bit but now he looks like he’s getting back into form. At 15 minutes a game he’s getting decent scoring, assists, and steals. I know it’s not an accurate measurement but if his minutes were doubled to around 30 his stats would look pretty good. Delonte West, one of the young centers, and the Suns pick for him is a fair package. At 6′5″ and a little over 200lbs he can definitely play pointguard. If Seattle could pull off the rumored( by NewYork fans) Ridnour for expiring contract Fred Jones, then Stuckey and Watson might look good as a tandem. Or move Watson as well and pick up Jannero Pargo in the offseason. Have Kyle Weaver as another guard with their second round pick.
Jeff Foster is an experienced, stay at home, defensively sound, savvy player in the PJ Brown mold. Offer up one of the young centers, a future pick, and whatever else to get him( one of the trade exceptions to get Indianna a little better salary structure).
So give me Stuckey and Foster( a pointguard and a center), send away Ridnour, West, and 2 raw centers. Now think about who in the draft would fit. Is there room for Eric Gordon at shooting guard and move Durant to small forward? Perhaps a small forward and still have Jeff Green as the tweener off the bench since Wilcox and Wally will be in their final year of their contracts? A center since Thomas will be done, and Foster doesn’t have more than a couple years left on his contract?