2/24/08 Box Score: Sonics 91 Lakers 111
Posted on Sunday, February 24th, 2008 at 9:06 pm by Mr. Baker (thinking good thoughts for George Karl))
Well, we managed to keep the margin under 21! The Lakers never trailed today, and pushed their win streak to 11 games. Kobe Bryant missed the last 16 minutes of the game because of ejection after jawing with ref Brian Forte over a non call.
Mickael Gelabale led the Sonics in scoring with 21 points on 10 of 14 shooting, and had 8 rebounds. Jeff Green added 15 points and 8 rebounds to the loosing effort. Kevin Durant missed his first 7 shots, and finished the game 4 of 13 with 15 points. Earl Watson had 12 points and 8 assists, and Johan Petro had 10 rebounds and 7 points.
(39-17)
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(15-40)
| LA Lakers | |||||||||||||||
| Starters | Min | FG | 3Pt | FT | +/- | Off | Reb | Ast | TO | Stl | BS | BA | PF | Pts | |
| G | 26:05 | 8-13 | 3-5 | 2-3 | +24 | 0 | 4 | 10 | 1 | 3 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 21 | |
| D. Fisher | G | 23:20 | 3-9 | 2-3 | 2-3 | +19 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 10 |
| P. Gasol | C | 23:28 | 10-18 | 0-0 | 2-4 | +19 | 1 | 7 | 3 | 2 | 0 | 2 | 2 | 2 | 22 |
| L. Walton | F | 39:11 | 5-11 | 0-0 | 1-1 | +20 | 0 | 7 | 6 | 2 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 4 | 11 |
| L. Odom | F | 14:02 | 8-12 | 1-1 | 2-3 | +23 | 4 | 11 | 3 | 0 | 1 | 3 | 0 | 4 | 19 |
| Bench | Min | FG | 3Pt | FT | +/- | Off | Reb | Ast | TO | Stl | BS | BA | PF | Pts | |
| S. Vujacic | 26:05 | 5-10 | 3-6 | 0-0 | -2 | 2 | 4 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 13 | |
| J. Farmar | 24:40 | 5-14 | 2-5 | 0-0 | +1 | 2 | 4 | 2 | 2 | 0 | 0 | 2 | 0 | 12 | |
| R. Turiaf | 17:03 | 1-4 | 0-0 | 0-0 | +2 | 1 | 4 | 3 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 2 | |
| D. Mbenga | 6:37 | 0-0 | 0-0 | 1-2 | -4 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 2 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 1 | |
| C. Karl | 3:29 | 0-1 | 0-1 | 0-0 | -2 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | |
| V. Radmanovic | DNP - Coach’s Decision | ||||||||||||||
| Totals | 45-92 | 11-21 | 10-16 | 11 | 43 | 28 | 11 | 8 | 7 | 7 | 13 | 111 | |||
| Percentages: | .489 | .524 | .625 | Team Rebounds: 10 |
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| Seattle | |||||||||||||||
| Starters | Min | FG | 3Pt | FT | +/- | Off | Reb | Ast | TO | Stl | BS | BA | PF | Pts | |
| K. Durant | G | 32:38 | 4-13 | 0-1 | 7-8 | -34 | 0 | 4 | 1 | 4 | 2 | 1 | 1 | 3 | 15 |
| E. Watson | G | 26:17 | 5-17 | 1-3 | 1-1 | -19 | 3 | 5 | 8 | 2 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 3 | 12 |
| J. Petro | C | 29:24 | 3-13 | 0-0 | 1-2 | -14 | 4 | 10 | 2 | 0 | 2 | 2 | 1 | 1 | 7 |
| J. Green | F | 34:10 | 6-9 | 0-0 | 3-5 | -18 | 3 | 8 | 0 | 4 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 2 | 15 |
| N. Collison | F | 31:43 | 4-9 | 0-0 | 0-1 | -21 | 3 | 8 | 1 | 2 | 0 | 3 | 1 | 1 | 8 |
| Bench | Min | FG | 3Pt | FT | +/- | Off | Reb | Ast | TO | Stl | BS | BA | PF | Pts | |
| M. Gelabale | 32:10 | 10-16 | 0-1 | 1-1 | +10 | 3 | 8 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 3 | 21 | |
| L. Ridnour | 21:43 | 3-7 | 1-2 | 0-1 | -1 | 0 | 1 | 5 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 2 | 7 | |
| F. Elson | 16:58 | 2-8 | 0-0 | 0-0 | +3 | 0 | 5 | 0 | 2 | 0 | 1 | 2 | 0 | 4 | |
| I. Newble | 11:28 | 1-3 | 0-1 | 0-0 | -8 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 2 | |
| A. Griffin | 3:29 | 0-0 | 0-0 | 0-0 | +2 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | |
| C. Wilcox | DNP - Coach’s Decision | ||||||||||||||
| D. Wilkins | DNP - Coach’s Decision | ||||||||||||||
| Totals | 38-95 | 2-8 | 13-19 | 16 | 50 | 19 | 15 | 6 | 7 | 7 | 15 | 91 | |||
| Percentages: | .400 | .250 | .684 | Team Rebounds: 13 |
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| Game Info | |
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Technical Fouls: LA Lakers - K. Bryant 2, Defensive Three. Seattle - E. Watson 1 |
Arena: Key Arena, Seattle, WA Attendance: 17,072 Officials: Brian Forte, Mike Callahan, Pat Fraher Duration: 2:03 |
Legend
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February 24th, 2008 at 9:30 pm
and, again, I prefer Gelly over Wilkins, at least tonight I will not have to convince anybody else
Petro could not hit anything tonight, unlike the prior 10, or so, games. He left to double and shut off the paint when he maybe should not have, doing the wrong thing for the right reasons.
The sonics have no meaningful play away from the ball to create options.
February 24th, 2008 at 9:36 pm
The Lakers have only won eight games in a row, not eleven games in a row. You may be thinking about the Houston Rockets who have won twelve games in a row.
February 24th, 2008 at 9:56 pm
nice to see the game was a sell out of 17,072!
February 24th, 2008 at 10:09 pm
I saw that, Friday was 16 thousand.
February 24th, 2008 at 10:11 pm
Why hasn’t Gelebale been playing all season? I’ve been screaming this all season. This team is run by morons.
February 24th, 2008 at 10:22 pm
Durant off the ball would give the defense 2 things to worry about. Durant with the ball only 1.
February 24th, 2008 at 10:30 pm
When it isn’t quite that stark as he can pass some. Now the best target would be Wilcox.
A better 3 game would help Durant personally and a better team 3 pt game would help him and Wilcox and the whole thing.
February 24th, 2008 at 10:32 pm
Gelly looked awesome. His lack of confidence has been the only thing holding him back. PJ needs to tell him that he’ll get benched unless he shoots the ball every time he touches it. His D on Kobe was at least adequate. I can’t think of a single dimension in which Damien is superior to Gelly.
February 24th, 2008 at 10:37 pm
If it were not for Gelabale’s excellent shooting, this would have been the worst game of the season. I’m assuming that’s still to come.
Welcome to Seattle StudentSonics basketball.
February 24th, 2008 at 10:48 pm
StudentSonics basketball is one thing StudentTeacherSonics basketball would be another.
Are PJ and Westhead’s lessons good and well delivered?
February 24th, 2008 at 10:50 pm
Gelabale may never ring up a 40-point game like Wilkins did in Atlanta, but other than simply missing shots, Gelly never really hurts the team in all the ways that Damien does. Gelly’s hoops IQ appears to be a lot higher than Damien’s. If PJ gives Gelly anything close to the same minutes Wilkins has gotten so far, there’s no question Gelly is the better fit going forward.
The problem is, now Wilkins says he probably won’t opt out of his contract after this year. Great. Maybe he’ll change his mind if Presti tells him there’s no place for him here, he’ll think twice. Maybe they’ll just trade him over the summer. Whatever - I’d rather see Gelly coming off the bench next year than Damien. Gelly can get 10-15 minutes at SG, and maybe another 5 at SF in smaller lineups.
I agree with whomever said that Gelly needs to be encouraged to be aggressive. Maybe in time, with some development, he’ll become a Raja Bell kind of player. That would be a nice profile for him off the bench.
February 24th, 2008 at 10:53 pm
Or maybe making that “Substitute”TeacherSonics would make more sense for PJ, called in from the reserves.
I could take the losing if I was convinced that what he is convinced of was enough. But I guess we’ll have to play that out and see…
February 24th, 2008 at 10:55 pm
PJ suggested that Gelly is going to get a lot of minutes and I think that may well happen. If it doesn’t that will be silly.
February 24th, 2008 at 11:00 pm
Got back from the game, if I didn’t see the Space Needle on the way to the arena, I would’ve thought we were in LA.
It was sad to see more peopling cheering for the Lakers than OUR sonics.
I knew we were probably going to get blown out by 30 points, especially after watching what Detroit did to the Suns today.
Petro pretty much got owned by Gasol. Gasol was scoring at will like he is hitting the “O” button in NBA Live 2008 ….
February 24th, 2008 at 11:07 pm
To end my night recognizing something a bit more positive I’ll note that before this game Sonics defense reached 18th and eFG% allowed 9th. The zone works to some degree but only 0.6% better than league average eFG% allowed. That actually produces a bit less than 1 point of “edge” compared to average. To achieve this not many turnovers are forced, in fact least in league or about 2 less. 2 turnovers = about 2 points of edge. Good on one factor by 1, weak on another by 2, the end result when the other factors are near average is a team defense worse than league average by about 1 pt. That is a positive compared to a defense 4 pts worse than average last season. But the offense… well you know that story…
February 24th, 2008 at 11:08 pm
“The problem is, now Wilkins says he probably won’t opt out of his contract after this year. Great.”
This point was discussed in the other thread; either Damien Wilkins is wrong about whether he can opt out of his contract at the end of this season or Larry Coon is incorrect that an early termination option can only be exercised at the end of the fourth year of a contract that lasts for at least five years. If Coon is correct, then Damien could only opt out at the end of next season, which means he will be a Sonic next season unless he is traded. However, Damien seems to have a different opinion about his ability to opt out after this season. Percy Allen should pose the question to Damien’s agent.
Either way, the issue of when Damien can exercise his early termination option is probably moot as the likelihood of Damien exercising such an option, even if he could at the end of this season, is small.
February 24th, 2008 at 11:18 pm
Crow, Presti and PJ may be of the belief that forcing a lot of turnovers is not very important to establishing an efficient defense; San Antonio has been a below-average team the last three seasons in terms of forcing turnovers and yet, San Antonio’s inability to force turnovers has not stopped them from claiming a top three position in terms of defensive efficiency.
The Sonics could very well have the best defense in the NBA when it comes to opponent two-point FG percentage. I suppose the zone is doing its job in that respect; this team’s inability to stop opponents from hitting a good percentage of their threes seems to be a major reason why they remain a below-average defensive team.
February 24th, 2008 at 11:38 pm
Usually, I’m okay with the rabid fans of other team’s superstars. I figure, hey, these could be working class folks who only get to Sonics games once or twice a year, or less. So let them celebrate the LeBrons and Carmelos. But the Kobe fans were so immediately offensive to me. The only moral victory tonight (other than Gelly playing so well) was Kobe getting tossed. I felt guilty for being so happy about that, considering that many of the people around me paid lots of money for their chance to see Kobe.
February 24th, 2008 at 11:43 pm
Holy Crap! Did you see that Durant has a -34 for the game!
February 24th, 2008 at 11:47 pm
“Holy Crap! Did you see that Durant has a -34 for the game!” {Lester}
Yeah, Kevin Durant played shitty defense against Kobe Bryant and Aleksander Vujacic tonight. You were at the game, though, so you got a first-hand viewing of it.
February 25th, 2008 at 12:08 am
Durant was flat out terrible. In the last thread we said that and somebody jumped on us saying that we’ve given up on him or that we’re judging too soon. I can say that, at least in my case, that is not so.
I think Durant is going to be a hell of a player. People don’t realize how much it takes to do what he’s done in the NBA and especially with such a diluted supporting cast and so many negative distractions with the team.
THat said, right now he is what he is. What his is is better than Kobe or McGrady in their rookie years but not close to what he needs to be. It’s fair to comment on his weaknesses now because no matter what he will be in the future his game at the moment is frustrating. In a nutshell we better be looking at the floor, not the ceiling.
February 25th, 2008 at 12:08 am
AK, why not just call him by his preferred name? Sasha Vujacic. It’s what he prefers, and it is what is published.
February 25th, 2008 at 12:14 am
John McGrath of the News Tribune, on the deadline trade: “The 11 players moved Thursday are making $66,018,281 in salaries -
although the only full-time starters involved were Drew Gooden, sent to the Bulls from Cleveland, and the underachieving Wallace. Imagine: Some $66 million involved in a trade of, essentially, bench players. And David Stern thinks that the politicians in Seattle are fumbling with money issues?“
February 25th, 2008 at 1:19 am
[...] ts, and finished the game 4 of 13 with 15 points. Earl Wa Read the rest of this great post here
Posted in Uncateg [...]
February 25th, 2008 at 2:28 am
Isn’t it crazy to think that 3 of the 4 top teams in the East will now have former Sonics playing big roles?
February 25th, 2008 at 3:13 am
“AK, why not just call him by his preferred name? Sasha Vujacic. It’s what he prefers, and it is what is published.” {David H}
I don’t mind if people call me Anthony or Tony.
February 25th, 2008 at 3:28 am
“THat said, right now he is what he is. What his is is better than Kobe or McGrady in their rookie years but not close to what he needs to be. It’s fair to comment on his weaknesses now because no matter what he will be in the future his game at the moment is frustrating. In a nutshell we better be looking at the floor, not the ceiling.” {Brian Robinson}
Based on Kevin Durant’s skill set, positive attributes, negative qualities, and inherent drawbacks (e.g., mediocre athleticism, lack of intensity, extremely scrawny frame, et cetera), his ceiling is that of Tracy McGrady rather than Kobe Bryant.
Although McGrady can look remarkably flashy while racking up scoring titles, he’s definitely not the type of player who’ll bring home a title. Instead, “T-Mac” has shown himself to be a worthy second banana alongside a premier post player — as well as a lockdown defender at the other wing position who can cover his defensive shortcomings — yet, in the role of a franchise cornerstone, he’s doomed to failure.
Currently, Durant is on that very same path—which isn’t a good thing. I don’t see any point in ignoring the inevitable, so let’s not expect something out of Durant (i.e., be a true superstar) that he can’t provide us.
February 25th, 2008 at 6:38 am
One…AK, stop posting…really, his PER is second only to a guy who is only getting 20 minutes and producing not nearly the statistic. While I hate PER, you guys throw that crappy trashbag statistical composite all the time.
“THat said, right now he is what he is. What his is is better than Kobe or McGrady in their rookie years but not close to what he needs to be. ”
Thank you…the problem is no one keeps things into perspective when ripping him. While yes, he has had a bad night, mulitple in fact, he is still bringing nearly 20 a game and more assists than any rookie in the league. Not to mention his has hit a game winning shot(3 pointer), as well as 35 twice(how many rookies have done that this year?), and SCHOOLED Manu/Bowen on the offensive end. Remember that guys, MANU and BOWEN could ….not…..stop…him. Give him till year three. Even Payton and Jordan were not great in their shooting ability. In which case I think PJ is the problem, concerning his development anyway.
February 25th, 2008 at 6:40 am
One thing, Jordan and Payton not good in their shooting ability INITIALLY, they had to work on it….give Durant the same chance. Anything less is not a justified criticism.
February 25th, 2008 at 7:05 am
“Isn’t it crazy to think that 3 of the 4 top teams in the East will now have former Sonics playing big roles?”
Might seem like it . . . but maybe not.
For example, Minnesota will now have former Tiberwolves playing big roles on 3 of the top 4 teams in the East (or 4 of the top 5 if you count Nesterovic).
Garnett
Szczerbiak
Billups
February 25th, 2008 at 7:58 am
- What was with Cash Only at the concessions last night??
- KD… -34…pretty horrible…just an uninteresting game all around.
February 25th, 2008 at 8:13 am
“It was sad to see more peopling cheering for the Lakers than OUR sonics.”
It saddened and disgusted me last night. Not only were there bigger cheers for the Lakers but people were booing the Sonics. This isn’t a soccer match!
February 25th, 2008 at 8:15 am
did people boo Radmanovic?
February 25th, 2008 at 8:39 am
I think KD is going to end up having the same type of skills and game as Rasheed Wallace of Detroit.
February 25th, 2008 at 8:53 am
i looked at the box score, radmanovic didn’t play, was he injured?
February 25th, 2008 at 8:54 am
The sooner the Sonics realize KD should be playing SF and not SG, the better off the team will be.
Adding Pau Gasol was a brilliant move by the Lakers, he’s added the additional interior scoring ability the Lakers really needed to balance out KoMe’s game. Bynum was providing that to a sense earlier, however Gasol is a much more accomplished interior scoring threat at this stage of their respective careers. When/if Bynum returns at full strength this year, the Lakers are going to be a matchup nightmare for opposing teams in the playoffs.
February 25th, 2008 at 8:58 am
Gellybelly……gotta like the aggressive shooting last night……just goes to show how important confidence is to a players offensive game.
Would really like to see Pajamas go with the following starting lineup for awhile…….
Watson
Gellybelly
Durant
Wilcox
Petro/Collison
Outside of Wilcox that might be renamed the “All Stringbean Lineup” but would seem to be a much better mix and balance on the court.
February 25th, 2008 at 9:06 am
A little off topic but I thought I’d post it. In an article from Oklahoma today it said that the Ford Center is filling up dates for the fall and winter and aren’t leaving any dates open for the possibility of basketball.
February 25th, 2008 at 9:19 am
Alex I focused on Sonics low turnovers forced because it seem liked an obvious consequence of a lot of zone defense but you are right that the Spurs do it that way too.Spurs are just one spot better on FG% allowed and 6 better on turnovers forced.
The real differences between Spurs and Sonics defense is they give up about 3 less offensive rebounds and about 6 less foul shots (unadjusted for pace). They are among the very best on these factors while Sonics are near average. Improving these may be more important than increasing turnovers forced. To do so you typically would have to play bigger /stronger for more offensive rebounds and more vet for less fouls given. I don’t see a long-term move to sustain either likey for the rotation but will see how much the new guys get used and what they deliver.
On another topic you raised I checked and Sonics are 3rd worst on 3pt FG% allowed to opponent and 5th best on 2 pt FG% allowed.
February 25th, 2008 at 9:53 am
Some of you people really need to get over your Kevin Durant unreasonably high hopes.
Michael Jordan shot .515 in his rookie season. His career fg% was .497. If you throw out his seasons after his first “retirement”, Jordan’s career fg% was probably around .525 — not much higher than his rookie season.
Tracy McGrady shot .450 in his rookie season, and he came right out of high school. McGrady’s current career fg% is .439. So McGrady has not improved his fg% since his rookie season.
Carmelo’s rookie season he shot .426. His career fg% right now is .458. Again, Carmelo came right out of high school. Durant played one year of college ball.
Durant is currently at .400, which is not acceptable. Durant is not an NBA player right now. He has to make a huge improvement in his fg% just to be an average NBA player. The average NBA fg% must be around .455.
Durant has so many weaknesses. He never should have come out this year. He clearly is not ready for the NBA.
If Durant’s upside is Tracy McGrady, the Sonics should trade him right now. I would not want McGrady on my team.
February 25th, 2008 at 10:00 am
Carmelo’s rookie season he shot .426. His career fg% right now is .458. Again, Carmelo came right out of high school. Durant played one year of college ball.
- Carmello played one year of college ball…and how does this not basically ruin your entire argument? Mello has been able to improve his FG% to the area you consider average…
Look we get it…you don’t like Kevin Durant…perhaps you will be right. Cherry picking your stats like you always do is just a waste of time.
February 25th, 2008 at 10:04 am
Kobe Bryant was able to start in the league with one of the best big men of all time and his first two years he shot 41.7% and 42.8%…the fact that Durant automatically equals McGrady and doesn’t automatically equal Bryant is basically ludicrous. Even Bryant’s defense wasn’t better than Durant (Defensive Rating 108 compared to Bryant at 106…even more amazing is that Bryant had a year where his D rating was 111)
February 25th, 2008 at 10:09 am
You’re right. Carmelo did play on year of college ball. I thought he came right out of high school. So Carmelo is a pretty good comparison to Durant.
I’m not cherry picking anything. I am using players who others on this thread wrote about in comparison to Durant.
Someone wrote about Jordan. Someone wrote about McGrady.
You think I am the one who has compared Durant to Jordan? Get a clue. Durant is nothing compared to Jordan. I am just pointing that out.
You don’t use the #2 pick in the draft on a player who becomes an “average” shooter. If Durant only becomes an “average” shooter, he was a really bad pick at #2. Although, admittedly, last year’s draft may have been so weak that Durant was the best the Sonics could have done.
February 25th, 2008 at 10:18 am
Bryant did come right out of high shcool, so I don’t think it is fair to compare his rookie season to Durant’s. Bryant’s 2nd season he shot .428. His career fg% is currently .453 — 25 points better than his 2nd season.
If Durant only improves his fg% by 30 points or so, he will still be a bad shooter. He needs to improve his fg% by 60 or 70 points to get to the .460 or .470 range to be a good player. He needs to improve about 100 points to get to .500, which would put him in the Michael Jordan, franchise player area.
That has probably been done, and I bet you will come up with some examples of players who have improved their shooting by 70 points or more from their rookie seasons. But that is what needs to happen for Durant to be considered a “franchise” player, in my opinion.
February 25th, 2008 at 10:21 am
If Durant only improves his fg% by 30 points or so, he will still be a bad shooter. He needs to improve his fg% by 60 or 70 points to get to the .460 or .470 range to be a good player. He needs to improve about 100 points to get to .500, which would put him in the Michael Jordan, franchise player area.
- Only if you are someone who thinks that FG% is the only imporant stat in the game…personally I’d much rather him shoot 45% and get 8 or 9 rebounds and 1 or 2 blocks a game then just increase his FG% to 50%
February 25th, 2008 at 10:26 am
If Jordan didn’t go to the hoop as often as he did and took all the outside shots Durant has been taking instead his % would obviously have been lower. The better critique of Durant, which doesn’t need to consult his field goal %, though it helps to explain that stat, is his obvious fear of contact and the patent failure that has been his stint as a 2-guard instead of as a small forward (which has probably helped him to develop his bad habits), not to mention the roster he plays with and the coaching–or the roster’s inability to accept coaching any better than it has so far displayed.
February 25th, 2008 at 10:27 am
I think expecting Durant to have around the same numbers as Rudy Gay is having this season would be reasonable. 20 ppg on 46% shooting, 6 rpg, in 37 mpg.
February 25th, 2008 at 10:30 am
Chauncey Billups opening season was .374% and he’s had two seasons of .442% shooting.
Steve Nash had an opening season of .423% (and another at .363%) and is now shooting at a .510% pace.
Dirk Nowitzki had an opening season of .405% and now has a career average of .471%
See how easy it can be when you just use one season as a big enough sample size?? Until KD has been in the league for 3 or 4 years I think it is a waste of time to compare him and his abilities to anyone.
February 25th, 2008 at 10:31 am
If Jordan didn’t go to the hoop as often as he did and took all the outside shots Durant has been taking instead his % would obviously have been lower. The better critique of Durant, which doesn’t need to consult his field goal %, though it helps to explain that stat, is his obvious fear of contact and the patent failure that has been his stint as a 2-guard instead of as a small forward (which has probably helped him to develop his bad habits), not to mention the roster he plays with and the coaching–or the roster’s inability to accept coaching any better than it has so far displayed.
- I agree with every point in this satement.
February 25th, 2008 at 10:32 am
It’s shocking to learn that people can learn and improve. Crazy.
February 25th, 2008 at 10:34 am
It’s shocking to learn that people can learn and improve. Crazy.
Its not shocking to everybody. ;o)
February 25th, 2008 at 10:34 am
Rudy Gay might be a pretty good comparison to Durant.
Another player some people compared Durant to is Kevin Garnett. Garnett came right out of high school. Even so, Garneett shot .491 in his rookie season, and .499 in his 2nd season. Garnett’s current carreer fg% is .493. Not much difference.
February 25th, 2008 at 10:36 am
Talk about cherry picking. Comparing Durant to Steve Nash? lol A bit of a reach, don’t you think? Can you name one other person in the world who has ever compared Kevin Durant to Steve Nash?
February 25th, 2008 at 10:37 am
You cannot compare Durant to all of these other players for the simple fact he is we don’t know what position he will possibly play. To compare to all these other guys that play the 2,3, or 4 is crazy. Let him evolve and gain some weight… then we can see what we got here. He has absolutely nothing around him in terms of talent. Jump off his back…
February 25th, 2008 at 10:41 am
Watch the way these 2 guys move and shoot.
I am telling you guys that after KD bulks up he is going to end up playing just like Rasheed Wallace.
February 25th, 2008 at 10:46 am
Nowitzki is an interesting case. However, Nowitzki only played 958 minutes in 47 games in his rookie season (about 20 minutes per game). I don’t remeber his rookie season, but those numbers make me think he was injured. Durant has already played 1754 minutes in 53 games this season. So those rookie seasons were not similar at all. Nowitzki came to the NBA right out of playing in some European lague, which has got to be a cultural and quality-of-play shock.
At any rate, Dirk improved his fg% to .461 in his 2nd season, when his pt went to 2938 minutes. His career fg% is currently at .471.
If Durant improves to .461 next season, then that will be a very good sign.
February 25th, 2008 at 10:53 am
Nowitzki is an interesting case. However, Nowitzki only played 958 minutes in 47 games in his rookie season (about 20 minutes per game). I don’t remeber his rookie season, but those numbers make me think he was injured
- He was not injured…Dallas was WIDELY criticized for making the pick and he was quickly labled a bust…perhaps everyone was too quick to judge.
Like Durant he was played out of position at C for the entire season.
February 25th, 2008 at 10:54 am
“Some of you people really need to get over your Kevin Durant unreasonably high hopes.
Michael Jordan shot .515 in his rookie season. His career fg% was .497. If you throw out his seasons after his first “retirement”, Jordan’s career fg% was probably around .525 — not much higher than his rookie season.
Tracy McGrady shot .450 in his rookie season, and he came right out of high school. McGrady’s current career fg% is .439. So McGrady has not improved his fg% since his rookie season.
Carmelo’s rookie season he shot .426. His career fg% right now is .458. Again, Carmelo came right out of high school. Durant played one year of college ball.
Durant is currently at .400, which is not acceptable. Durant is not an NBA player right now. He has to make a huge improvement in his fg% just to be an average NBA player. The average NBA fg% must be around .455.
Durant has so many weaknesses. He never should have come out this year. He clearly is not ready for the NBA.
If Durant’s upside is Tracy McGrady, the Sonics should trade him right now. I would not want McGrady on my team.”
Uh, Carmelo Anthony was the MOP of the 2003 Final Four. Not sure how you missed that one.
Just because Durant has a low fg%, doesn’t mean that he is not an NBA player. Guys like AI and J-Kidd are career low-percentage shooters and they’re going to the HOF.
The kid does have a lot of weaknesses at this point… and he should. He’s a 19 year old rookie, for crying out loud. If the kid comes back after the offseason and he’s not any better, then it’s time to start worrying.
If the kid ends up a healthy T-Mac, you don’t want him? WTF, are you talking about? The guy has put up a career 22, 6, & 5 despite playing for years now with a bad back. Sure, he’s a little soft, but so was David Robinson. It didn’t stop him from winning two titles. Yeah, Durant may not end of being the #1 guy on a championship team, but that doesn’t mean can’t help the Sonics win rings.
February 25th, 2008 at 10:55 am
Talk about cherry picking. Comparing Durant to Steve Nash? lol A bit of a reach, don’t you think? Can you name one other person in the world who has ever compared Kevin Durant to Steve Nash?
- You asked to show players who have significantly increased their shooting from their rookie season…since you are all about FG% it doesn’t really matter what other skills the players have…Steve Nash is considered one of the best shooters in basketball and yet one year he shot .363…
February 25th, 2008 at 11:00 am
Nowitzki is an interesting case. However, Nowitzki only played 958 minutes in 47 games in his rookie season (about 20 minutes per game). I don’t remeber his rookie season, but those numbers make me think he was injured. Durant has already played 1754 minutes in 53 games this season. So those rookie seasons were not similar at all. Nowitzki came to the NBA right out of playing in some European lague, which has got to be a cultural and quality-of-play shock.
More likely, Nowitzki’s smaller amount of minutes his rookie season were attributable to him playing on a team with more established veterans. A team where Dirk wasn’t expected to be the #1 scoring option and was able to be exposed to the NBA game at a much slower, more gradual rate without having to take on as much team responsibility right out of the gate.
Dallas #1 scoring option during Dirk’s rookie year was Michale Finley. In addition, there was a young Steve Nash, entering his 3rd year in the league on the roster.
It looks like Dirk started 24 games and played in 47 of 50 games that season. Someone remind me, what was going on in 1998/1999 season that resulted in the Mavs only playing 50 games? Sounds like whatever that was, was another reason for Dirk’s low minutes played his rookie season.
February 25th, 2008 at 11:04 am
Steve Nash is the one example everyone always uses. This is sometimes referred to as “the exception that proves the rule.”
The Sonics used Steve Nash as the model for Luke Ridnour, also. How well has that worked out? You think Ridnour has become “another Steve Nash”?
I have given you examples of guys who have been compared to Kevin Durant — McGrady, Garnett.
And you give me Steve Nash, whom nobody has EVER compared to Durant. LOL
February 25th, 2008 at 11:05 am
Nowitzki is an interesting case. However, Nowitzki only played 958 minutes in 47 games in his rookie season (about 20 minutes per game). I don’t remeber his rookie season, but those numbers make me think he was injured
- He was not injured…Dallas was WIDELY criticized for making the pick and he was quickly labled a bust…perhaps everyone was too quick to judge.
Like Durant he was played out of position at C for the entire season.
February 25th, 2008 at 11:07 am
However, Nowitzki only played 958 minutes in 47 games in his rookie season (about 20 minutes per game). I don’t remeber his rookie season, but those numbers make me think he was injured
In looking at other teams, it looks like there were only 50 games played in the NBA season in 1998/1999 season. Anyone remember why? I must have drank too much this weekend I don’t remember that season?
February 25th, 2008 at 11:08 am
Nowitzki’s rookie season was the lockout year? Ok, that explains the 47 games played, then. The NBA locked out the players. That is why it was only a 50-game season.
Still, only 20 minutes per game for Dirk. Most players claim they can not play their best unless they get at least 30 minutes per game. Durant is getting just about the perfect minutes for him to play his best this year.
February 25th, 2008 at 11:10 am
Still, only 20 minutes per game for Dirk. Most players claim they can not play their best unless they get at least 30 minutes per game. Durant is getting just about the perfect minutes for him to play his best this year.
- Ya…really its too bad that Don Nelson didn’t play him 30mpg cause Im sure that he would’ve rather had Dirk not play his best…
February 25th, 2008 at 11:20 am
I have to ask, you don’t want Tracy McGrady on your team???
I’m talking about a fully healthy McGrady people.
All these comparison of Durant to McGrady is nothing but positive, yet some of you spin it into a negative thing.
If Durant becomes every bit as good as McGrady, a franchise star player when healthy, I am happy. I really am.
February 25th, 2008 at 11:24 am
All these comparison of Durant to McGrady is nothing but positive, yet some of you spin it into a negative thing.
- Why would we want a McGrady like player…I mean dude has never won a playoff series…wait KG has only won a playoff series in one season??!!?? Hmmm, perhaps its not as a good of a measure as some people claim it is…
February 25th, 2008 at 11:34 am
The Hornets have just 14 more home games left.
Does anyone know how their progress toward their attendence mark is going . . . and the odds that they will hit it?
February 25th, 2008 at 11:36 am
Never-won-a-title/playoff-series logic is hilarious. “I’d rather have [insert deep bench player from a championship team] than McGrady or Garnett because he’s a proven winner!” One minute a team’s responsible for winning games and the next it’s an individual player, depending on what suits the agenda.
February 25th, 2008 at 11:40 am
You don’t want Tracy McGrady on your team, because McGrady is a career 43.9% shooter, while averaging 22.4 points per game. Low-percentage, high-volume shooters are the worst players you can possibly have.
Iverson is another great example of a player I would never want on my team: high-volume, low-percentage shooter.
February 25th, 2008 at 11:43 am
You don’t want Tracy McGrady on your team, because McGrady is a career 43.9% shooter, while averaging 22.4 points per game. Low-percentage, high-volume shooters are the worst players you can possibly have.
Iverson is another great example of a player I would never want on my team: high-volume, low-percentage shooter.
- Of course not…these guys have never been on successful teams…why would you want them??
February 25th, 2008 at 11:45 am
The Hornets have just 14 more home games left.
Does anyone know how their progress toward their attendence mark is going . . . and the odds that they will hit it?
- Averaging 12,954 fans a night. Seattle still ranks ahead of Philly (which is a total joke…they are currently only playing to 64% capacity), NO, Memphis and Indy
February 25th, 2008 at 11:47 am
AK1984 Says:
February 25th, 2008 at 3:28 am e
Tracy McGrady rather than Kobe Bryant.
those guys are as old to Durant; as Jordan was to Kobe, as Magic and Bird were to Jordan…
Both guys you are using as a yardstick have been in the NBA for a while, have some miles, and are great compared to the players, but are of another era.
I understand that it is what we have to use for measuring, but it is a model, and models are necessarily incomplete.
Kobe, 11 years pro, 28 years old. 6-6, 205 lbs
Tcrack, 10 years pro, 27 years old, 6-8, 223 lbs
Durant, Rookie, 19 years old, 6-9, 215 lbs
He is longer than either of those other guys, taller than Kobe, 8 lbs lighter than McGrady.
February 25th, 2008 at 11:49 am
Perhaps it is the fact they played Texas teams and a Memphis team the last three home games but their attendance has been much stronger. Or, the All-Star game really did kick start some excitement in the area…or…the NBA is padding the attendance figures now
February 25th, 2008 at 11:50 am
I didn’t get a chance to watch the game. Was Gelabale more aggressive or did he just make the most of his opps?
February 25th, 2008 at 11:56 am
I didn’t get a chance to watch the game. Was Gelabale more aggressive or did he just make the most of his opps?
Definately was more aggressive looking for shots.
February 25th, 2008 at 11:56 am
“All these comparison of Durant to McGrady is nothing but positive, yet some of you spin it into a negative thing.”
Yeah I’ve never really understood this either. Sure McGrady hasn’t had much success in the playoffs. So what. Not everyone can win. Playoff records aren’t necessarily a reflection on how good of a player you are.
I mean would a comparison to Barkley or Ewing be bad because they never won a championship?
Its a strange argument……especially considering how bad we are.
February 25th, 2008 at 11:59 am
“I didn’t get a chance to watch the game. Was Gelabale more aggressive or did he just make the most of his opps?”
He was way more aggressive, though it didn’t look unatural or too forced. He was shooting well from mid-range and when his defender stepped out, he did pretty well to get past them for a higher percentage shot.
February 25th, 2008 at 12:01 pm
He was way more aggressive, though it didn’t look unatural or too forced. He was shooting well from mid-range and when his defender stepped out, he did pretty well to get past them for a higher percentage shot.
- For the first half (that I was at the game) he did look more agressive. BTW, anyone have any idea why the concessions were cash only last night>?
February 25th, 2008 at 12:03 pm
D_G the attendance test goes until end of next season. Looks like their attendance is up some But they are still “behind”.
From New Orleans City Business paper:
“A total of 17,714 fans attended Friday’s game…
Twenty games after an agreement with the state hinging on attendance rates, 269,433 fans have attended Hornets home games, bringing the average attendance to 13,472.
Under the Jan. 9 agreement, average attendance rates for all home games beginning Dec. 1 and running through the end of next season must reach 14,735 or the Hornets will have the option of terminating their contract at the end of next season.”
“Nearly 16,000 people watched the New Orleans Hornets beat the Dallas Mavericks 104-93 [last] Wednesday night.”
February 25th, 2008 at 12:03 pm
I don’t know if that is a reference to my posts, or not, but I did not say I would not want McGrady because of his playoffs record. I said it is because he is a low-percentage, high-volume shooter, and I never want those guys.
Barkley was a very high-percentage shooter, and a great player, whom I would have loved to have on my team.
There is no comparison between Barkley and McGrady — Barkley was vastly superior to McGrady.
Ewing was also a good player — much better than McGrady.
February 25th, 2008 at 12:03 pm
I don’t know if that is a reference to my posts, or not, but I did not say I would not want McGrady because of his playoffs record. I said it is because he is a low-percentage, high-volume shooter, and I never want those guys.
Barkley was a very high-percentage shooter, and a great player, whom I would have loved to have on my team.
There is no comparison between Barkley and McGrady — Barkley was vastly superior to McGrady.
Ewing was also a good player — much better than McGrady.
February 25th, 2008 at 12:05 pm
Cash only concessions maybe because of size of crowd for speed of business?
Or Sonics or city avoiding merchant credit card fees?
February 25th, 2008 at 12:10 pm
Vinny, you’re crazy! Durant and Rasheed Wallace? Durant is a perimeter player and Rasheed is a post player (amazingly great defensive player when he cares to be) who shoots too many 3s. Wait, that’s what they have in common! Endless numbers of inappropriate threes. That’s how Durant is going to be like Rasheed.
February 25th, 2008 at 12:11 pm
Barkley was a very high-percentage shooter, and a great player, whom I would have loved to have on my team
- And yet compared to his talent his teams had relatively little success at the beginning of his career…
February 25th, 2008 at 12:19 pm
McGrady was a consistent 45% shooter until he started having injury problems in his 7th season, a number which put him right in line with Kobe.
Of course, you probably wouldn’t want Kobe either…
February 25th, 2008 at 12:20 pm
McGrady was a consistent 45% shooter until he started having injury problems in his 7th season, a number which put him right in line with Kobe.
Of course, you probably wouldn’t want Kobe either…
February 25th, 2008 at 12:28 pm
Even so McGrady’s downfall in FG% has really come from taking more threes. Early on in his career he’d take a few a game, as he started to shy away from contact (read back injury) he became more dependent on that shot and its drug his FG% down.
Anyone who wouldn’t take a fully healthy McGrady’s insane, the guy can flat out play.
February 25th, 2008 at 12:34 pm
Not referencing you Dipper. We know your stance.
But most people that don’t like the Durant/ McGrady comparison because of McGrady’s playoff record.
I say baby steps……we are far from a playoff team. Since when does a players style equate to playoff success? Durant isn’t playing that good this year. If he improves to McGrady level…….how can that not be a positive thing?
February 25th, 2008 at 12:39 pm
“Kobe, 11 years pro, 28 years old. 6-6, 205 lbs
Tcrack, 10 years pro, 27 years old, 6-8, 223 lbs
“Durant, Rookie, 19 years old, 6-9, 215 lbs
“He is longer than either of those other guys, taller than Kobe, 8 lbs lighter than McGrady. ”
How much did Kobe and McGrady weigh when they were 19? Are those stats available?
February 25th, 2008 at 12:41 pm
“I say baby steps……we are far from a playoff team. Since when does a players style equate to playoff success?”
Especially when two other players mentioned as ‘high volume/low efficiency’ shooters managed four finals appearances in thier careers….
“If he improves to McGrady level…….how can that not be a positive thing?”
Agreed. I think there are some areas to be concerned with in talking about Durants game, but him being marginalized as a disappointement by becoming like a guy whose been on the all-NBA team 6 times is comical.
February 25th, 2008 at 12:47 pm
Agreed. I think there are some areas to be concerned with in talking about Durants game, but him being marginalized as a disappointement by becoming like a guy whose been on the all-NBA team 6 times is comical.
- Especially when the argument requires the use of arbitrary numbers designed by the person just to make their argument appear stronger.
February 25th, 2008 at 12:52 pm
“Barkley was a very high-percentage shooter, and a great player, whom I would have loved to have on my team
- And yet compared to his talent his teams had relatively little success at the beginning of his career… ”
I wouldn’t go that far. Philly was really good during the Chuckster’s first two seasons (58-24, ECF & 54-28, ECSF). Of course, then they gave away Moses Malone, Andrew Toney got hurt, and Dr. J retired…. not exactly Barkley’s fault that Philly replaced those guys with players like Jeff Ruland, Ron Anderson, & Mike Gminski.
February 25th, 2008 at 12:52 pm
A few people around here who’s names I can’t remember have mentioned Popovich’s method of bringing up Tony Parker slowly.
Apparently, Pop let him do whatever he wanted for his rookie year, and didn’t try to make rigid corrections to his game. His rookie FG% was .419, but the next year jumped up to .464, and later on reached levels as high as .548 in 05/06.
This may have corresponded to his being reigned in by Pop, maybe not. Some people have mentioned that PJ appears to be using this same developmental strategy w/ Durant. Not trying to compare Parker and Durant directly, but more just wondering if anyone sees a coaching parallell there. Just an idea for discussion.
February 25th, 2008 at 12:58 pm
“This may have corresponded to his being reigned in by Pop, maybe not. Some people have mentioned that PJ appears to be using this same developmental strategy”
I should elaborate: Pop apparently let Parker do as he pleased in his first year and then took him aside in his sophomore season to help refine his game. Some people believe that this is the same as what PJ is doing now. I don’t necessarily aggree, because I don’t knwo much about TPs b-ball upbringing. But one thing i think is evident is that Durant is being given a green light to play as inefficiently as he pleases. PJ’s never unleashed his wrath on the kid after bad shots, like we’ve all seen him do with some veteran players.
February 25th, 2008 at 1:04 pm
I should elaborate: Pop apparently let Parker do as he pleased in his first year and then took him aside in his sophomore season to help refine his game. Some people believe that this is the same as what PJ is doing now. I don’t necessarily aggree, because I don’t knwo much about TPs b-ball upbringing. But one thing i think is evident is that Durant is being given a green light to play as inefficiently as he pleases. PJ’s never unleashed his wrath on the kid after bad shots, like we’ve all seen him do with some veteran players.
- Perhaps this is true…maybe some how PJ thinks that this style will force KD to realize that taking the ball to the hoop is a much better option on most posessions.
February 25th, 2008 at 1:13 pm
“- Perhaps this is true…maybe some how PJ thinks that this style will force KD to realize that taking the ball to the hoop is a much better option on most posessions.”
Well, I know what you’re saying about not going inside often enough, but I think he’s really having a hard time even w/ closer shots. He misses a lot of very high percentage shots and gets stripped too frequently going inside. Doesn’t mean he shouldn’t keep working at it, but I think he’s struggling in many facets of his game including around the basket.
February 25th, 2008 at 1:24 pm
“Even so McGrady’s downfall in FG% has really come from taking more threes.”
I think that’s half-true; his field goal percentage did not decline from forty-five percent in the 2001-2002 and 2002-2003 regular seasons despite the fact that he shot a lot more threes; what changed for him in subsequent seasons was that he hit fewer threes. That’s a critical distinction.
In the 2002-2003 regular season, Tracy was great from the three-point line as he shot almost thirty-nine percent from three on six attempts per game; that is excellent shooting considering that he creates most of his shot opportunities all by himself. Unfortunately for Tracy, he has not been able to shoot over thirty-four percent from the three point line, despite shooting fewer threes since that season.
February 25th, 2008 at 1:50 pm
Moffett looks like Bryant came in at listing of 200 lbs and McGrady 210.
http://www.eskimo.com/~pbender/bball/misc/teamages.html
February 25th, 2008 at 3:17 pm
” Especially when the argument requires the use of arbitrary numbers designed by the person just to make their argument appear stronger. ”
Do you even know the definition of “arbitrary”? What the hell are you talking about?
February 25th, 2008 at 3:33 pm
KD’s style, being a lower percentage outside shooter like TM is a question for the GM in building the team–ie does he fit what the team needs. Given that the Sonics have no system/style nor very many players in place makes it a very low priority question it seems to me. Adding more good players, and having KD turn out to be a good player are far more critical to crawling out of the cellar.
February 25th, 2008 at 4:41 pm
Do you even know the definition of “arbitrary”? What the hell are you talking about?
- Yes…saying that for KD to be a great player he would need to shoot x% from the field…is just an aribtrary number you’ve come up with
February 25th, 2008 at 4:53 pm
Forget his offense. For Durant to be a great player, he’s going to have to play D. And right now, he’s abandoned most any effort to rotate on D.
February 25th, 2008 at 6:24 pm
Nothing arbitrary about it, genius. I never said he had to shoot some specific number. I said that to be a good player he has to shoot better than what the average player shoots. I estimate the average fg% this season to be about .455.
To be a great player, he has to shoot an exceptional percentage.
That is based on years of research I have done. How is saying the average fg% in the NBA is about .455 “arbitrary?” I estimated that by looking at team shooting averages this season. It appears that .455 is about the league average for fg%. Nothing “arbitrary” about that number at all. .455 is what an average player shoots in the NBA this season.
February 25th, 2008 at 7:58 pm
One problem Durant is having right now is his inability to finish in traffic. When he attacks the rim, even the slightest amount of contact causes him to miss his shot. As he gets stronger and becomes more aggressive around the basket, those same shots will start to go in. He also needs to learn how to do a better job of selling the foul to the officials. Getting to the foul line is going to be a huge part of Durant’s game.
I think constructive criticism with Durant is fair, but let’s not forget the guy is only 19. If he still hasn’t improved his defense, or shooting percentage in 2-3 years then I will start to worry. We have to give the guy a chance to make mistakes and grow as a player. It’s not as if it’s uncommon for rookies to struggle in certain areas and to improve as they gain experience. Look at Marvin Williams in Atlanta. After his rookie season people were ready to label him a bust, yet in his third year in the league he vastly improved his game. Travis Outlaw and Rashard Lewis are players that have made huge strides from where they were in their rookie seasons.
I really don’t think it’s unrealistic thinking to assume Durant’s going to be a better player 2-3 years down the line. He’s already averaging 19 ppg on a team that has very few offensive options. That’s a ton of pressure for a guy who only played 1 year of college ball. I agree with everyone that Durant needs to improve his shot selection, as well as his overall defense. However, I do believe some of his poor defensive statistics are somewhat skewed, due to him playing more minutes than anyone else on the team. WIth the Sonics being a poor defensive team, being out on the court more than anyone else isn’t going to help your defensive statistics.
Durant still needs to get stronger and refine his game. I would like to see him add a low-post game, the way Rashard Lewis did as his career went along. If Durant is going to get minutes at the 2 guard he needs to work on posting-up smaller players.. At this point he’s not strong enough to get great positioning down low, but he can at least face the basket and shoot over his opponent. Down the line I believe he will also have the ability to play at the 4 position. For a guy his size he has great mobility and he’s a tough cover for any opposing big to guard on the perimeter. Once Durant fully develops I believe he’s going to be a monster in this league. You put a 2/3 on him and he will punish them on the block, or go to a face-up game. You put a 4 on him and he will pull them out onto the perimeter and use his speed advantage to get to the basket, or space the floor with his shooting.
February 25th, 2008 at 10:38 pm
Marvin Williams is in free fall recently with regard to his outside shot. Danger lurks and doesnt always go totally away.
February 26th, 2008 at 8:23 am
“Never-won-a-title/playoff-series logic is hilarious. “I’d rather have [insert deep bench player from a championship team] than McGrady or Garnett because he’s a proven winner!” One minute a team’s responsible for winning games and the next it’s an individual player, depending on what suits the agenda. ”
For all those who use the “not a winner” logic on Tracy McGrady, and equate Durant’s future to such need remember that Kobe has done nothing without a supporting cast and is therefore by classification a high-percentage(fg%) “chucker” and nothing more…at least by AK’s standard. Which would then also negate any further progression, success, or abililty to win titles beyond his days with Shaq. It would also subordinate all other talents and abilities he has developed to the fact that he has not won a title all by his lonesome and makes them thus null and void. Do we really want to establish that kind of a precedent? Hope not.
February 26th, 2008 at 8:43 am
“that Kobe has done nothing without a supporting cast and is therefore by classification a high-percentage(fg%) “chucker” and nothing more…at least by AK’s standard. Which would then also negate any further progression, success, or abililty to win titles beyond his days with Shaq.”
I’ve never heard AK rag on any player that takes a high number of shots and still maintains a good FG%.
February 26th, 2008 at 11:31 am
I guess we will need more than one player on the team, at least 6, no more than 15.