2/26/08 Box Score: Sonics 99 Warriors 105
Posted on Wednesday, February 27th, 2008 at 12:07 am by Big Chris
A much better showing tonight, but the same result as last time out. After stinking it up for most of the first half, GSW played well the second half tonight.
Jeff Green and Kevin Durant both led the Sonics in scoring tonight with 21 apiece. Nick Collison added 20 points and 13 rebounds. Luke Ridnour tied a career high with 15 assists.
The difference in the game was turn overs. The Sonics gave the ball away too many times (24 to GSW’s 12). The Sonics held a rebounding advantage, but that is misleading unless you factor in the 13 more shots the Warriors took.
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| Seattle | |||||||||||||||
| Starters | Min | FG | 3Pt | FT | +/- | Off | Reb | Ast | TO | Stl | BS | BA | PF | Pts | |
| L. Ridnour | G | 40:23 | 4-10 | 0-1 | 0-2 | -4 | 0 | 6 | 15 | 4 | 3 | 0 | 0 | 3 | 8 |
| K. Durant | G | 33:16 | 9-19 | 0-2 | 3-3 | -8 | 2 | 4 | 7 | 5 | 1 | 3 | 2 | 1 | 21 |
| N. Collison | C | 41:38 | 9-12 | 0-0 | 2-3 | 0 | 6 | 13 | 3 | 1 | 1 | 2 | 0 | 2 | 20 |
| J. Green | F | 42:06 | 10-21 | 0-0 | 1-1 | +1 | 2 | 9 | 1 | 4 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 21 |
| J. Petro | F | 18:12 | 2-6 | 0-0 | 0-0 | -19 | 3 | 8 | 0 | 3 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 4 | 4 |
| Bench | Min | FG | 3Pt | FT | +/- | Off | Reb | Ast | TO | Stl | BS | BA | PF | Pts | |
| M. Gelabale | 28:07 | 5-9 | 0-1 | 2-2 | +2 | 0 | 7 | 1 | 2 | 1 | 1 | 2 | 2 | 12 | |
| C. Wilcox | 17:06 | 4-7 | 0-0 | 1-2 | +3 | 1 | 3 | 3 | 2 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 4 | 9 | |
| F. Elson | 9:52 | 2-5 | 0-0 | 0-0 | +1 | 1 | 2 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 4 | |
| D. Marshall | 1:38 | 0-0 | 0-0 | 0-0 | -4 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | |
| A. Griffin | 1:09 | 0-0 | 0-0 | 0-0 | -2 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | |
| I. Newble | DNP - Coach’s Decision | ||||||||||||||
| D. Wilkins | DNP - Coach’s Decision | ||||||||||||||
| Totals | 45-89 | 0-4 | 9-13 | 15 | 52 | 30 | 24 | 7 | 8 | 5 | 18 | 99 | |||
| Percentages: | .506 | .000 | .692 | Team Rebounds: 7 |
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| Golden State | |||||||||||||||
| Starters | Min | FG | 3Pt | FT | +/- | Off | Reb | Ast | TO | Stl | BS | BA | PF | Pts | |
| B. Davis | G | 44:04 | 8-24 | 2-8 | 2-2 | +18 | 0 | 2 | 10 | 2 | 7 | 0 | 3 | 2 | 20 |
| M. Ellis | G | 41:39 | 14-22 | 0-0 | 2-2 | +3 | 2 | 6 | 4 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 3 | 30 |
| A. Harrington | C | 28:59 | 2-9 | 1-4 | 0-0 | +5 | 2 | 5 | 2 | 2 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 2 | 5 |
| S. Jackson | F | 36:03 | 6-18 | 1-3 | 4-4 | +2 | 3 | 7 | 3 | 4 | 1 | 0 | 2 | 1 | 17 |
| B. Wright | F | 9:16 | 1-4 | 0-0 | 0-0 | -5 | 1 | 3 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 2 |
| Bench | Min | FG | 3Pt | FT | +/- | Off | Reb | Ast | TO | Stl | BS | BA | PF | Pts | |
| M. Pietrus | 25:29 | 5-10 | 1-4 | 0-2 | +1 | 0 | 3 | 2 | 1 | 2 | 1 | 0 | 5 | 11 | |
| A. Croshere | 22:00 | 6-6 | 1-1 | 1-1 | +11 | 5 | 5 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 14 | |
| M. Barnes | 14:40 | 2-8 | 0-1 | 0-0 | +4 | 4 | 8 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 2 | 4 | |
| C. Webber | 7:32 | 0-0 | 0-0 | 0-0 | 0 | 0 | 2 | 0 | 2 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 0 | |
| C.J. Watson | 6:21 | 1-1 | 0-0 | 0-0 | +3 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 2 | |
| K. Azubuike | 3:55 | 0-0 | 0-0 | 0-0 | -12 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | |
| M. Belinelli | DNP - Coach’s Decision | ||||||||||||||
| Totals | 45-102 | 6-21 | 9-11 | 17 | 42 | 24 | 12 | 14 | 5 | 8 | 16 | 105 | |||
| Percentages: | .441 | .286 | .818 | Team Rebounds: 6 |
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| Game Info | |
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Technical Fouls: None |
Arena: ORACLE Arena, Oakland, CA
Attendance: 19,412 |
Legend
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February 27th, 2008 at 12:30 am
Wow, interesting line for Azubuike. It seems like he found a way to do less than nothing during his time on the floor.
February 27th, 2008 at 12:34 am
Petro sure does shoot alot…
February 27th, 2008 at 12:44 am
I think the starting unit gels with Wilcox, Collison, Green, Durant and a talented pg earning majority minutes. Petro and Gelabale are nice Sonics off the bench.
February 27th, 2008 at 12:47 am
Kelenna Azubuike doesn’t play defense.
February 27th, 2008 at 2:17 am
Holy sh*t, glad to see every single Sonic who played scored a TO. Whatever it is, Durant got the most! He’s the winner!
Awesome.
February 27th, 2008 at 2:36 am
I was actually cheering more then yelling at the Sonics tonight…Oh maybe because Watson/Wilkens did not play…
Was it or me or was Green/Durant seem faster tonight…They actually attack the basket too…Im hoping they continue to do that…
February 27th, 2008 at 7:18 am
I’d like to see Collison get 40 minutes every night. We could use a 20/10 guy playing defense. He’s easily my favorite player on the team.
February 27th, 2008 at 7:30 am
Durant and Green look faster when they play with Luke. It’s easy to run and slash when you know PG is looking to pass first and put you in a position to score.
February 27th, 2008 at 7:55 am
Missed the game, can anyone tell me who defended Davis & Ellis when Ridnour & Gellly where on the floor together? Thanks.
February 27th, 2008 at 8:03 am
Collison shines against a team like the Warriors, which didn’t have a center since Biedrins is out with his appendix. But we’ve all seen how he struggles against taller centers.
I still think power forward is his position even though you have to give him alot of credit for tackling the center position as an undersized center.
I’m looking forward to seeing Jeff Green continue getting more playing time and hopefully his production will continue on an upward curve as he gains even more confidence.
I have to ask if it’s a coincidence that the team at least looks more cohesive since Carlisimo has more or less shortened his rotations. Is the evaluation process over now and Petro gets his 18 minutes, and Gelabale gets around 15, and Green plays in the 28-30 minute range the rest of the way?
Here’s a question. Does PJ mess with the smaller rotation and try to give more time to Marshall, Newble, Griffin, and Elson or should he stick with the players who are the future and give Greeen more time, along with Gelabale and Petro?
Personally I want to see those three young players gets as much playing time as possible. I haven’t looked at their stats but I don’t think the players that came over in trades played much this year anyways so not much would change with them.
February 27th, 2008 at 8:36 am
Marshall, Newble, Griffin, and Elson should get zero playing time the rest of the year.
Sene should be recalled immediately and let all the young players play out the year.
Of course this management team is in FU Seattle mode, so they will probably start Marshall, Newble, Griffin, and Elson from now on.
February 27th, 2008 at 9:25 am
Shan Foster, SG/SF from Vandy, lit up the Tennessee Volunteers last night, knocking off the #1 ranked Vols in their first game since moving up to the #1 ranking.
Foster shot the lights out. Someone to keep in mind with that early 2nd round pick. Not suppose to be the most athletic guy around, but he can knock down that outside shot with the best of ‘em.
February 27th, 2008 at 9:36 am
I’ll give Luke credit for the game last night, if Watson is sick tonight and Luke plays good against Iverson than I’ll never bash him again. Ellis is such a beast.
February 27th, 2008 at 9:42 am
“Marshall, Newble, Griffin, and Elson should get zero playing time the rest of the year.”
The minute they put Marshall in was the last time I flipped over. There’s something scary about an aging, overweight Sonic wearing #42 that I’ll never be able to quite get over….
February 27th, 2008 at 9:47 am
We’ve already hashed this out a million times, but neither Luke nor Watson should be seen as anything more than a backup PG for the Sonics or anyone else…which is why Presti needs to do whatever it takes to put himself in a position to select Derrick Rose with Seattle’s top pick. If Seattle draws the #3 slot or lower in the lottery, then Presti is gonna have to find a way to trade up to #2 or #1 to get Rose. It is absolutely essential that Presti comes out of this draft with Rose. After that, he can focus on a young big man, and maybe another young scorer off the bench.
February 27th, 2008 at 10:11 am
I agree, especially after that last game against the vols, i think rose has really cemented himself as the second pick in the draft, and first point guard to go (over even bayless). This draft will be unbelievably key for the sonics in the next few years - if they can get two solid players, a la derrick rose and possibly a scorer off the bench or big body to fill the center void (even if it’s as a backup) or, reaching a bit, a starting sg, they would be well on their way to being competitive.
As for shane foster, I was watching him play against tenessee last night, he looked pretty studly but you’re right about him not being athletic - he’s not much of a defender, to say the least, and he can’t really drive. Saying that,t hough, he can absolutely shoot, and who can we say that about with our current team? I personally believe jeff green and kevin durant will greatly improve their shots over summer, but even then, shane foster would probably be the top shooter coming into the team if we were to draft him with (nothing earlier then) a second round pick
February 27th, 2008 at 10:23 am
Yeah, Petro really disappointed me last night. -19 in 18 minutes last night. He’s shown some promise offensively but he needs to know when to shoot and when to pass. If he hopes to be our starting center then he better make protecting the basket his #1 priority.
Marshall and Griffin were disastrous for us last night. I agree that there is no reason to play those guys at all. -6 in less than 3 minutes between them. Why did PJ put them in in a tight game? That was stupid.
I do think Elson is serviceable though; it doesn’t bother me when we throw him in there. Still, I’d rather we let Sene get some run.
February 27th, 2008 at 10:26 am
In response to Myk:
“- LOL….yup the same Watson-ettes that think that these last 5 decent games he played in some how relevant to his actual playing ability. ”
I’m grasping for a good, compelling story line to keep me coming back to the games (on TV since I live far from Seattle), and frankly, to keep me coming back to this webpage.
In all the losing and disappointment and underachieving in the midst of remarkably low expectations, I am searching for something to root for or feel good about other than ping-pong balls.
Sure I know in my head that both Luke and Earl are not starting quality point guards . . . but which story line has more appeal?
1) Scrapy NBA journeyman, career backup finds himself somehow in the very improbable position of being a veteran on the floor among very inexperienced teammates and has to step up game to assume leadership role.
2) Soft, over-hyped player, makes nice passes and helps execute the offense, but completely lacks the heart to play defense, and is impotent . . . I repeat impotent to stop an opposing player from getting to the basket, even when he wraps both arms around a player in a feable bear hug as he did against Stephen Jackson at the end of the second half yesterday’s game.
I choose story-line 1. I guess that makes me a Watson-ette rather than a Luke-a-nutt. The only distinction that I would like to make from the way the issue has been framed in yesterday’s posts, is that either position is not necessarily unrealistic . . . it is just expressing hope against the odds for something good to occur.
February 27th, 2008 at 10:28 am
“If Seattle draws the #3 slot or lower in the lottery, then Presti is gonna have to find a way to trade up to #2 or #1 to get Rose. It is absolutely essential that Presti comes out of this draft with Rose.”
I’m a big fan of Rose too, but no way I’d give up a good player, which is what it’d take to move up to get him, as long as Bayless is on the board.
February 27th, 2008 at 10:31 am
Beasley, Rose, Bayless.
Any of those 3 will make me (as a fan) happy with the draft.
If we dont get at least 1 of those 3 - then let the rioting begin!
February 27th, 2008 at 10:33 am
I just have a bad feeling that the Supes take Brook Lopez top 3. I’m scared.
February 27th, 2008 at 10:34 am
I choose story-line 1. I guess that makes me a Watson-ette rather than a Luke-a-nutt. The only distinction that I would like to make from the way the issue has been framed in yesterday’s posts, is that either position is not necessarily unrealistic . . . it is just expressing hope against the odds for something good to occur.
- Ummm…yes it is completely unrealistic to think that Watson somehow suddenly got 20xs better overnight…it is even more amazing considering the 5 or so decent games he has put together isn’t all that much better then what Luke had been doing for extended minutes for months at a time a year or so ago. Its obvious that many people just flat out will never like Luke Ridnour…but for them to take that dislike and somehow transfer that into creating false impressions of Watson is just silly. What is hillarious is that if Earl had done the exact same game last night you’d be saying that he is really starting to turn the corner.
I’d like to see Collison get 40 minutes every night. We could use a 20/10 guy playing defense. He’s easily my favorite player on the team.
- We definately could use a 20/10 guy on this team it would be amazing…Nick Collison is a 10 and 8 guy tops so he prolly isn’t going to satisfy those needs…
February 27th, 2008 at 10:34 am
“- LOL….yup the same Watson-ettes that think that these last 5 decent games he played in some how relevant to his actual playing ability. ”
You should give it a rest and stop acting like you weren’t the biggest Ridnour supporter on this site until you were pretty much shut out of that argument. Do you think there’s anything to LOL about when you were clinging to Lukes grand two months in 2006 as your only claim to his true abilities? That was less than a week ago.
February 27th, 2008 at 10:36 am
Sorry, I guess 16 angry fans doesn’t qualify for riot status.
February 27th, 2008 at 10:36 am
“We definately could use a 20/10 guy on this team it would be amazing…Nick Collison is a 10 and 8 guy tops so he prolly isn’t going to satisfy those needs…”
Agreed. We don’t have a 20/10 guy on our roster.
February 27th, 2008 at 10:37 am
“…it is even more amazing considering the 5 or so decent games he has put together isn’t all that much better then what Luke had been doing for extended minutes for months at a time a year or so ago. Its obvious that many people just flat out will never like Luke Ridnour…but for them to take that dislike and somehow transfer that into creating false impressions of Watson is just silly”
Ha ha, who’s silly? Just let go.
February 27th, 2008 at 10:40 am
Remeber that scene from the Godfather where Johny Fountain is crying to Don Vito “What can I do Godfather, what can I do?”
And the God Father grabs him and slaps him and says “You can act like a man!”
I hear Brando’s voice in my head when I see Luke completely impotent to make a stop. “You can act like a man!”
The Golden State broadcast team during last nights game: “any other defender besides Ridnour and that basket would not have been made.” And I agree with that observation. Luke had time to get his arms around Jackson but lacked the will to be able to prevent him to go to the bucket. I recall specifically one other fast break where I swear that any defender (not with strength or size) but with just the will and a bit of toughness (e.g. Iverson) would have been able to make a stop (or at least extract a high price). But the player just drove right through Luke like he was nothing and layed the ball in to the hoop easily.
February 27th, 2008 at 10:41 am
You should give it a rest and stop acting like you weren’t the biggest Ridnour supporter on this site until you were pretty much shut out of that argument. Do you think there’s anything to LOL about when you were clinging to Lukes grand two months in 2006 as your only claim to his true abilities? That was less than a week ago.
- I was never Luke’s biggest supporter unless you count me being Watson’s biggest hater as something similar…since people sit here and come up with flat out inaccurate arguments to prove that Watson is the better player it may appear that I am defending Luke…but really I am just pointing out the lies that are being used to support Watson’s abilities…
For example…all the defensive stats I can find on Ridnour/Watson this year point to Ridnour being a better defenisive player than Watson. That might not necessarily be true…but it does prove that all the people who claim that Watson is a plus defender are full of it…
February 27th, 2008 at 10:43 am
Agreed. We don’t have a 20/10 guy on our roster.
True, but don’t be surprised if Durant ends up being a 20/8 guy after moving to SF full time.
February 27th, 2008 at 10:44 am
D_G, I’ve got different versions of your stories:
1) Overpaid career backup journeyman saddled with a disability that prevents him from anticipating passes or finding shooters in rhythm. Despite his challenge, which bogs down the offense and frustrates teammates, he soldiers on and tries to compensate by driving in to multiple defenders or hoisting up ill-advised long distance shots. Will his coaches ever realize that his defense (more reputation than reality) does not offset the negative affect he has on his teammates’ offensive production?
2) A local boy with an fantastic gift for handling and passing the basketball struggles for years with coaches that stunt his growth by constantly changing his role and limiting his playing time. Despite these challenges, which repeatedly sap his confidence, he plays hard and shows glimpses of being the perfect point guard for the fast-paced system that the organization wishes to implement. Will his coaches ever give him the chance to show what he can do?
February 27th, 2008 at 10:48 am
Elson looks horrible. I would rather see Sene out there, who i have begun to sour on after watching a bunch of his games in Idaho. Really, could Sene be worse than Elson - 2 rebound for a 7 footer in 10 minutes?
Collison and Gelabale were the 2 best sonics (again).
February 27th, 2008 at 11:04 am
i live in san jose but i’m a sonics fan and i got to go to last night’s game.
what i could see was petro lacks a lot of confidence as he fumbles the ball away or gets picked too easily. when he had the ball last night he was only looking to score. he also committed a lot of dumb loose ball fouls.
i agree marshall should not be on the floor. his only play of the game was a lazy pass that was picked for an easy break away dunk.
luke was very good last night driving into the top of the key and either dishing or shooting an easy jumper. he threw an alley oop to i think green from half court that was pretty sick.
February 27th, 2008 at 11:14 am
Okay Big_Worm.
I apologize for attempting to begrudge folks of your story-line number 2.
(sincerely)
And because I am an unashamed “homer” who likes nothing better than finding a good Sonics angle to root for . . . I’ll jump out of my seat and go nuts with fists pumping when I see Luke take out a man driving to the basket.
February 27th, 2008 at 11:14 am
Big_Worm: Your eloquence on this subject mirrors my feelings exactly. Point guards need to pass the ball and take shots that are given to them in the flow of the offense. Earl does neither. If Luke had anyone with a defensive mindset covering behind him he wouldn’t be a liability. If Earl would take things in the flow and pass the ball to people where they need it he wouldn’t be a liability. Luke’s problem can be corrected with the right personnel decisions, Earl’s problems needed to be corrected in High School or by his AAU coach. Basketball IQ and how do you measure it?
February 27th, 2008 at 11:17 am
Collison quietly put up really good numbers last night…..didn’t he? I was shocked at his line. I tuned in at half time. Was most of his damage done in the first half?
February 27th, 2008 at 11:19 am
As someone said above…if he could just play against teams without real centers all the time he would be an all-star player. Not sure if that means he would be a good PF (next to a good C) or not…but he definately does excel in those situations
February 27th, 2008 at 11:20 am
I apologize for attempting to begrudge folks of your story-line number 2.
- I think most everyone here realizes that neither story line is going to happen…for whatever reason Luke lost all his confidence and it doesn’t appear that it will ever come back here in Seattle and Watson just isnt a good player.
February 27th, 2008 at 11:46 am
“…for whatever reason Luke lost all his confidence and it doesn’t appear that it will ever come back here in Seattle and Watson just isnt a good player.”
For whatever reason? Luke didn’t lose his confidence, he’s just never been an above average player for any significant stretch of time. If you say that about Watson, I wouldn’t argue with you. But the fact that you say one is an anomaly and the other happened for whatever reason, as if the team has something to do with it, now that’s just plain retarded. Also, I wouldn’t argue this point if you didn’t act like your affection for Luke was the obvious truth, and those who disagree with such a subjective point are “silly”.
BTW, why didn’t you ever dispute this stat observation? -
On NBA efficiency (what I can get by month / PER is not as available) Watson’s Feb. 08 is better than Ridnour’s Nov./Dec. 06 by a modest amount. He was real close but stilla bit below in Jan. 06. No month of the 04-05 season was that strong for Luke personally. Watson’s Feb.08 is better than any Ridnour has had in his career- by a small amount. For what that is worth. I just wanted to know and say something positive for a change but of course the comparison will get made. - Crow
February 27th, 2008 at 11:58 am
so i couldn’t watch the game last night, i live in san diego so, surprising as it is, they don’t broadcast all that many sonics games down here, but how did ridnour play last night, defense aside? We all know his defensive liabilities, how was the offense with him in the game? He has some impressive stats, but was he just hitting shooters who were hitting jumpshots and getting assists on fast breaks or was he actually running the offense and getting everyone involved? Oh and how did jeff green look, he put up some numbers too, but that’s not exactly the tell-all
February 27th, 2008 at 12:00 pm
I’m seriously considering putting the words Luke and Earl in the moderation queue.
Criminy can we just admit either one would be in the bottom 10% of starting PGs in the NBA and MOVE ON.
Thank you.
February 27th, 2008 at 12:04 pm
17 minutes for Chris Wilcox? Hard to see him back in a Sonic uni next season.
Another fairly efficient game from Gelabale as well.
February 27th, 2008 at 12:07 pm
I’ll take 15 assists from my pg anytime,especially on this young and learning team.
February 27th, 2008 at 12:08 pm
I’ll take 15 assists from my pg anytime,especially on this young and learning team.
February 27th, 2008 at 12:08 pm
I’ll take 15 assists from my pg anytime,especially on this young and learning team.
February 27th, 2008 at 12:12 pm
i think wilcox’s return really depends on who we draft, unless they’re serious about putting petro at PF (which looked pretty bad tonight, at least stats-wise). We have collison at PF, and maybe green? But outside of that, I don’t know who we can put in at PF. I’m a little worried about what we do with Green, I think he’s a starter but i don’t think we can keep durant at sg and actually say we’re committing to defense.
February 27th, 2008 at 12:16 pm
I think Wilcox’s 17 minutes was flu influenced but let’s see if he stays near 30 a game average or dips considerably the rest of the way.
February 27th, 2008 at 12:19 pm
I think Wilcox’s 17 minutes was flu influenced but let’s see if he stays near 30 a game average or dips considerably the rest of the way.
That was my impression too. Wilcox was questionable going into the game of whether he was even going to be available and then played, so I have to get that his reduced minutes were largely related to his flu.
That said, it would not surprise me in the least bit to see Wilcox traded on draft day.
February 27th, 2008 at 12:20 pm
Unforunately, when the Sonics trade Wilcox they will also be trading away what little offensive post game the team currently has.
February 27th, 2008 at 12:27 pm
The more I see of Bayless, the less I think he can successfully make the the transition to PG in the NBA - he’s the next Monta Ellis, which is fine, but the Sonics need a pure PG to create easier shots for the rest of the team. Bayless is not a PG - he’s quite gifted at creating his own shot, but not for his teammates.
February 27th, 2008 at 12:42 pm
Hopefully Bayless is not the next Shawn Respert (or *gasp* Flip Murray)
Short 2-guards scare me.
Honestly I think he’s better than those guys… but I’d hate to spend the 3rd pick in the draft hoping to convert a shooting guard to a point guard.
February 27th, 2008 at 12:44 pm
On NBA efficiency (what I can get by month / PER is not as available) Watson’s Feb. 08 is better than Ridnour’s Nov./Dec. 06 by a modest amount. He was real close but stilla bit below in Jan. 06. No month of the 04-05 season was that strong for Luke personally. Watson’s Feb.08 is better than any Ridnour has had in his career- by a small amount. For what that is worth. I just wanted to know and say something positive for a change but of course the comparison will get made. - Crow
- Because I’d rather have two months of really close then 5 games of what Watson has done. Also, at the time Ridnour was continuing a natural progression that made it likely he could continue it. He did not…Watson is not following any sort of natural progression leading a rational person to believe that this is all just an anomoly.
For whatever reason? Luke didn’t lose his confidence, he’s just never been an above average player for any significant stretch of time. If you say that about Watson, I wouldn’t argue with you.
- Ridnour has never been above average, but he has been average for an extended period of time. As Hollinger stated in Ridnour’s 06-07 projections…Ridnour was the definition of an average point guard. Watson on the other hand has never been even average. This will be the first year that Watson has ever out performed Ridnour in their careers.
I don’t see what can be more clear then this…Ridnour sucks…Watson sucks more…until this year it is how it has always been. Unfortunately, Watson hasn’t really improved this year…Ridnour has just falled off the face of the Earth.
February 27th, 2008 at 12:47 pm
The more I see of Bayless, the less I think he can successfully make the the transition to PG in the NBA - he’s the next Monta Ellis, which is fine, but the Sonics need a pure PG to create easier shots for the rest of the team. Bayless is not a PG - he’s quite gifted at creating his own shot, but not for his teammates.
- I think Bayless seems like a Dwyane Wade type player to me (an inch shorter, but has a little bit better of a jumper). However, I still need to see him stand up to tough defenses better then he did against UW. UW hasn’t been very good this year and it was clear that they rattled him for most of the game. To me, that is not a good sign.
February 27th, 2008 at 12:53 pm
Rose has been called the best PG prospect to come out in the last 10 years. That’s what the Sonics need - not a 6-2 scorer who may or may not ever learn to play the point.
February 27th, 2008 at 12:56 pm
Pretty good clip here of Will Ferrell…didn’t know he was such a good shooter:
http://sports.espn.go.com/broadband/video/videopage?&brand=null&videoId=3267201&n8pe6c=2
February 27th, 2008 at 12:57 pm
Luke didn’t lose his confidence, he’s just never been an above average player for any significant stretch of time.
I don’t disagree with part 2 of this sentence, but I do take issue with part 1.
I really think Luke’s inconsistency has a *LOT* to do with confidence. When he’s on he can be borderline brilliant. When he’s making the runners in the lane, hitting his three’s and sparking the running game with a swagger.
When his confidence is off he dribbles himself in to trouble, hesitates to take open shots, and no longer passes with conviction.
I think if Luke can get over his confidence issues he can be an outstanding offensive player who raises the performance of his teammates. His ability in transition is apparent, but he’s also good in the half court, hitting shooters coming of screens, finding cutters and especially running the pick and roll - he’s exceptional at that when paired with the right big.
Defensively yeah, he gets pushed around… but like others have stated, if we had a true shot blocker that wouldn’t be as much of a problem. He does play with vigor and awareness at least.
His main problem as a point guard is he’s not a leader. He’s not demonstrative enough to be your typical floor general - and this probably also comes back to the confidence thing. This can be masked when you have a strong personality at another position who can handle the ball and take over the controls in half court when necessary - such as Ray Allen often did.
At any rate, Luke may indeed be fatally flawed as far as being a starting point guard. And I have never claimed he was ‘The Answer’ for us. All I’m saying is he’s the better option between he and Watson. Specifically, I would argue that in comparison to Watson
1) He better facilitates the development of our young players
2) He still has untapped potential
3) He better fits our system
4) He’s more fun to watch (important for keeping our team)
5) The BYC thing makes him harder to trade
February 27th, 2008 at 1:01 pm
“The more I see of Bayless, the less I think he can successfully make the the transition to PG in the NBA - he’s the next Monta Ellis, which is fine, but the Sonics need a pure PG to create easier shots for the rest of the team. Bayless is not a PG - he’s quite gifted at creating his own shot, but not for his teammates. ”
I agree with this, I also see him more as a 2 guard than a 1. More Ben Gordon than Tim Hardaway.
However I’ m not sure that the team wouldn’t function with that type of guy running the show. Do the Sonics really need a pure PG? Can any of us say with certainty that what passes for an offensive game plan with this team will still be there in a couple of years?
Right now the Sonics need players, period… I say get the best guy available for the job and worry about positions later … it doesn’t seem likely that we’ll beat out Minny among others for the #1 overall pick by virtue of record and we really have no idea how the draft will shake out between now and July. The Tournament is really where these guys draft status gets made or broken.
February 27th, 2008 at 1:02 pm
I saw some of the UW game. They put a small quick guy on Bayless - from the part I saw anyway. The college game is not as spread out as the pro game - less room to really move around with zone defenses and generally a clogged painted area - so I try not to judge him too much on that. With a more spread floor he could blow by and have some room to work - but with the scrum that is called the painted area in college it is harder to do that.
It is not like Rose is routinely getting into the paint either - again, from what I have seen so far.
February 27th, 2008 at 1:06 pm
I think if Luke can get over his confidence issues he can be an outstanding offensive player who raises the performance of his teammates. His ability in transition is apparent, but he’s also good in the half court, hitting shooters coming of screens, finding cutters and especially running the pick and roll - he’s exceptional at that when paired with the right big.
- Unfortunately, it just does not appear that he has any chance of getting over these issues in Seattle. He would also be a much better player where he actually had players who could finish the passes that he makes. He would be a good starting guard on a team where he was the 4th or 5th option…not when he has to be the third option.
February 27th, 2008 at 1:07 pm
I saw some of the UW game. They put a small quick guy on Bayless - from the part I saw anyway. The college game is not as spread out as the pro game - less room to really move around with zone defenses and generally a clogged painted area - so I try not to judge him too much on that. With a more spread floor he could blow by and have some room to work - but with the scrum that is called the painted area in college it is harder to do that.
It is not like Rose is routinely getting into the paint either - again, from what I have seen so far.
- My issue wasn’t with him not being able to create his shot..it was more that he became visibly rattled with being played agressively..
February 27th, 2008 at 1:10 pm
- I think Bayless seems like a Dwyane Wade type player to me (an inch shorter, but has a little bit better of a jumper). However, I still need to see him stand up to tough defenses better then he did against UW. UW hasn’t been very good this year and it was clear that they rattled him for most of the game. To me, that is not a good sign.
In the very next game, Weaver and WSU didn’t seem to slow Bayless down too much. Shot a higher percentage, reduced his TO’s to 2. Same amount of assists.
And Bayless is running the Point for Arizona right now while Wise is injured. And…….Bayless continues to average more Assists per game than Rose. So I’m not sure where this idea that Rose is such a great “creator of shots for his teammates” while Bayless is not comes from. The games I’ve watched Bayless does just fine creating for teammates, though his primary job on that Arizona team is still to be one of the primary scoring options. Maybe there is some confusiosn coming from what his primary role is on the Wildcats and what his skill set will allow him to do in varying settings.
Anyways, just to clarify before someone jumps to the wrong conclusion, my draft board still sits as….
1a. Beasley
1b. Rose
2. Bayless
February 27th, 2008 at 1:12 pm
Rose has been called the best PG prospect to come out in the last 10 years.
Who said that? They must have been stoned or they have not watched Chris Paul play the last three years.
February 27th, 2008 at 1:15 pm
“I would rather see Sene out there, who i have begun to sour on after watching a bunch of his games in Idaho.”
Here’s my question, Idaho is for better or worse a 500 team without Mo. With him they played nearly 950 ball. Unless I’m missing something how exactly would that make you sour on a guy?
February 27th, 2008 at 1:15 pm
Unfortunately, it just does not appear that he has any chance of getting over these issues in Seattle.
You’re probably right… but in his defense, he hasn’t really been put in a good situation with a consistent role since Nate left, and he’s only got 3 starts this year. I would at least like to see get a month or so of starts this year so we can see if he fits with the team’s future, if even as a backup.
February 27th, 2008 at 1:16 pm
“Who said that? They must have been stoned or they have not watched Chris Paul play the last three years.”
According to draft order Paul wasn’t even the best PG prospect in his own draft. I think they’re talking pre-draft:)
February 27th, 2008 at 1:17 pm
“The more I see of Bayless, the less I think he can successfully make the the transition to PG in the NBA - he’s the next Monta Ellis, which is fine, but the Sonics need a pure PG to create easier shots for the rest of the team. Bayless is not a PG - he’s quite gifted at creating his own shot, but not for his teammates.”
Bayless does play point guard pretty often and will have to improve on his playmaking abilities unless he wants to be an undersized shooting guard, which I can’t imagine he would. Remember that both he and Rose are freshmen, and PG skills take time to develope.
Also, just because he’s a prolific scorer does not mean he’s a selfish player and can’t distribute the ball. He does it quite well, however he would greatly help our offense by drawing attention with his solid shooting and slashing. I’m also worried about Rose’s FT%. I’d be happy with both, but I wouldn’t sell the farm to move up one or two spots for a player that hasn’t really proven to be better.
February 27th, 2008 at 1:19 pm
According to draft order Paul wasn’t even the best PG prospect in his own draft. I think they’re talking pre-draft:)
lol…..exactly.
February 27th, 2008 at 1:22 pm
Frozen, I’m glad to see that you have jumped on the “Shan Foster in the second round” bandwagon; I think he’d make the team and be a very effective player off the bench for fifteen minutes next season. Heavens forbid the Sonics, who are pretty much the worst three-point shooting team in the NBA, actually add someone who can hit the three-point shot.
February 27th, 2008 at 1:25 pm
In the very next game, Weaver and WSU didn’t seem to slow Bayless down too much. Shot a higher percentage, reduced his TO’s to 2. Same amount of assists.
- They didn’t play the same type of aggressive defense that UW played.
And…….Bayless continues to average more Assists per game than Rose. So I’m not sure where this idea that Rose is such a great “creator of shots for his teammates” while Bayless is not comes from.
- Different offensive styles…
February 27th, 2008 at 1:33 pm
“In the very next game, Weaver and WSU didn’t seem to slow Bayless down too much. Shot a higher percentage, reduced his TO’s to 2. Same amount of assists.
- They didn’t play the same type of aggressive defense that UW played.
Players have rough games. Rose’s game was totally taken off track by Mayo when the two teams played. he couldn’t get into his game at all.
And…….Bayless continues to average more Assists per game than Rose. So I’m not sure where this idea that Rose is such a great “creator of shots for his teammates” while Bayless is not comes from.
- Different offensive styles…
Well I think Rose is plenty capable of distributing the ball, but if you’re going to pin it all on offensive style, then I might rather take the player who actually has more experience distributing the ball than the player who’s game has been overshadowed by his coaches offensive scheme.
February 27th, 2008 at 1:36 pm
Memphis and Arizona run entirely different systems on offense, in particular the Memphis system is not as conducive to a pure PG running the offense and distributing the ball - which is why some have questioned why Rose went there in the first place, and it’s why his assist numbers are not what they would likely be in the NBA.
February 27th, 2008 at 1:38 pm
“Memphis and Arizona run entirely different systems on offense, in particular the Memphis system is not as conducive to a pure PG running the offense and distributing the ball - which is why some have questioned why Rose went there in the first place, and it’s why his assist numbers are not what they would likely be in the NBA.
Are these your opinions or Draft Express’?
February 27th, 2008 at 1:39 pm
“I think if Luke can get over his confidence issues he can be an outstanding offensive player who raises the performance of his teammates. His ability in transition is apparent, but he’s also good in the half court, hitting shooters coming of screens, finding cutters and especially running the pick and roll - he’s exceptional at that when paired with the right big. ”
” Unfortunately, it just does not appear that he has any chance of getting over these issues in Seattle. He would also be a much better player where he actually had players who could finish the passes that he makes. He would be a good starting guard on a team where he was the 4th or 5th option…not when he has to be the third option.”
I wish the best for Rid but the fact is when nobody on either team playes defense is when he shines. Last night perfect example GS played no D at all in the 1st half except for Baron’s hacks & steals. Players running for wide open dunks and layups 12 1st half assists. But then the 2nd half came and so did a better defensive effort from GS and what happend to the flow the free flowing slams some think were created by his mastery of the game flow and creative pass 1st mentality. Gone when the going gets tought the tough get, oh well. Or perhaps the coaching and teammates play hurt his confidence. For we all know if they would just put him in a perfect position with everything perfect he would be the perfect fit. I am not one who buys into the pass 1st pg thought process. My favorite pg’s are effective because you have to stop them, double them, control them, they make you pay attention. Which creates opps for others. Steve Nash is a great passer but if he was not able to beat his man off the dribble and shoot the outside shot he is not MVP for any yr. Magic, Isiah, Chris Paul, D Williams, Jason Kidd all get in the lane and must be stopped. Without that aspect to your game you are just a game manager not a creator.
“1) He better facilitates the development of our young players
2) He still has untapped potential
3) He better fits our system
4) He’s more fun to watch (important for keeping our team)
5) The BYC thing makes him harder to trade ”
I agree with # 5
and this “His main problem as a point guard is he’s not a leader”
Which relates to the 1st 4 making them moot. I can’t enjoy watching a non leader attempt to lead. How do you make others better by not leading or having any confidence yourself.
February 27th, 2008 at 1:42 pm
Players have rough games. Rose’s game was totally taken off track by Mayo when the two teams played. he couldn’t get into his game at all.
- This has very little to do with his actual performance and the fact I could visually see that he was rattled by having a defender up on him the entire game. WSU does not do this because they think their D is so good that they don’t need to resort to “gimmick” types of Defenses.
Well I think Rose is plenty capable of distributing the ball, but if you’re going to pin it all on offensive style, then I might rather take the player who actually has more experience distributing the ball than the player who’s game has been overshadowed by his coaches offensive scheme.
- Apparently you did not take the time to read the article linked by Crow (and also found in TrueHoop) about the offensive system implemented in Memphis. Perhaps you should read about the dribble penetration offense they rely before you start commenting…that might make you sound a little more like you know what you are talking about.
February 27th, 2008 at 1:44 pm
My favorite pg’s are effective because you have to stop them, double them, control them, they make you pay attention. Which creates opps for others.
That’s the thing about Luke’s confidence - when he has it, he DOES keep the other team honest. He can be a good finisher, but not when he plays scared.
February 27th, 2008 at 1:46 pm
Pure PGs don’t come around very often. So I think we will be waiting as long as we have for a center to find one. They are a dying breed.
Bayless and Rose are as good as it gets this year.
February 27th, 2008 at 1:49 pm
“Frozen, I’m glad to see that you have jumped on the “Shan Foster in the second round” bandwagon; I think he’d make the team and be a very effective player off the bench for fifteen minutes next season. Heavens forbid the Sonics, who are pretty much the worst three-point shooting team in the NBA, actually add someone who can hit the three-point shot.”
He can definitely shoot. But thats all he can do, and he primarily shoots 3s. Catch and shoot. Late second rounder at best.
February 27th, 2008 at 1:49 pm
That’s my opinion, based on my observation. I’m not sure what you’re referencing from Draft Express. The “5 Out” system run by Memphis precludes the ball being dominated by the PG - a fact which necessarily impacts the PG’s assist numbers.
I like Bayless, and I’m sure he’ll be a good player - I just think Rose is the better fit for the Sonics. If Presti needs to package a pick and a player, or whatever, to move up to get Rose then he better do it.
February 27th, 2008 at 1:52 pm
The starter/2nd round pick sucks more than the backup/mid first rounder? I’m gonna have to agree to disagree with u on that one Myk.
BTW, I agree with Courtsense, and it’s been agreed upon by many here b4, that both are backups. I’ll add that I value the idea of having a quality backup pg, so I wouldn’t say that either of them completely suck either, but that’s just me…
February 27th, 2008 at 1:56 pm
The fact of the matter is, the Sonics might end up with the 6th pick in the draft.
It worries me that we’re pinning our hopes on Rose. We may very well end up picking too low to get him, and the teams at #1 and #2 very well may not want to trade with us. What do we really have to offer a rebuilding team other than Durant and Green?
February 27th, 2008 at 1:57 pm
Back to my question last night . . .
1) Weber is from Michigan?
2) Weber has a very competitive personality?
3) Weber is missing one item in his career . . . a championship ring?
4) Weber has the opportunity to sign-on again with Detriot?
5) Weber signs with Golden State.
Why?
February 27th, 2008 at 2:02 pm
W-E-B-B-E-R loves Don Nelson and California.
February 27th, 2008 at 2:06 pm
green keeps getting 8-9 rebounds per game, that’s good news isn’t it?
February 27th, 2008 at 2:08 pm
- Different offensive styles…
Personally, I think that’s a “cop out” for people who think Rose is a better distributor / creator of shots for teammates than what his stats and games currently suggest. Despite the fact I still have him ranked higher on my draft board than Bayless.
If anything, on Arizona, where Bayless is counted on to be one of the primary scorers and to take more shots, one would logically think Bayless’ asssist numbers would be hindered as he’s suppose to be the guy taking all the shots. Despite having another PG, who has started most of Arizona’s games alongside Bayless, and is also averaging 4 assistt/game, Bayless still manages to average 4.4 assts/game himself. Obviously, its just my opinion, but I think Bayless will be just fine as an offensive facilitator in the NBA. Obviously, he still has some things to learn, but put him in a situation where he’s not the #1 scoring option and I think he’ll be just fine as a distributor who can also score when needed to.
When I’ve watched Memphis play, I don’t see where their “style” of offense really hinders Rose’s ability to create or make plays for others. He just still has a lot to learn as a PG, which is reflected in his stats and low Ast/TO ratio. Nothing wrong with that, just a realization of where he is in the learning curve.
February 27th, 2008 at 2:09 pm
What do we have to offer a rebuilding team to move up in the draft order?
How about six 1st round picks - with at least 2 of them likely to be high lottery picks - and seven 2nd round picks in the next 3 drafts; the expiring contracts of Wilcox, Marshall, and Griffin; and the remaining contracts/services of Wilkins, Watson, and Ridnour.
Presti should be able to create some kind of trade package out of those resources with which to entice a team to move down a few spots in the lottery - and if he can’t, then he’s just not doing his J-O-B. The whole point of having 13 picks and flexibility is to consolidate those resources into high-impact players.
February 27th, 2008 at 2:10 pm
I don’t know if anyone else saw this but Bill Simmons from ESPN calls for an entire mailbag of Seattle fans voicing their grievances at the end of this column:
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/080227
Let’s get’er done and shoot some emails.
February 27th, 2008 at 2:10 pm
If Presti needs to package a pick and a player, or whatever, to move up to get Rose then he better do it.
Or more accurately, he better hope there is a team above him willing to trade the pick. It takes two to tango.
February 27th, 2008 at 2:11 pm
“Frozen, I’m glad to see that you have jumped on the “Shan Foster in the second round” bandwagon; I think he’d make the team and be a very effective player off the bench for fifteen minutes next season. Heavens forbid the Sonics, who are pretty much the worst three-point shooting team in the NBA, actually add someone who can hit the three-point shot. ”
How about Earl and a second rounder to the Bobcats for Adam Morrison and Ryan Hollins
February 27th, 2008 at 2:11 pm
“He can definitely shoot. But thats all he can do, and he primarily shoots 3s. Catch and shoot.”
And how is that a bad thing? All I said was that Foster should receive strong consideration from Presti in the second round. Perhaps the Sonics should trade down to draft him but I believe the value of obtaining a player who could potentially shoot forty percent from three is just too high to pass up in the second round.
The Sonics don’t need any more guys who lack a definitive skill, such as Josh Shipp and DeMarcus Nelson; the Sonics have plenty of these types of players. The Supes don’t need any other players who are undersized big men who rebound well, such as Joey Dorsey; once again, the Supes are already a pretty good rebounding team. The thing that the Sonics most lack but could potentially obtain in the second round is shooting and three-point shooting; Foster and potentially Courtney Lee could fix that issue.
February 27th, 2008 at 2:16 pm
Alex, I would be thrilled if the Sonics could get Courtney Lee at #27 or early in the 2nd round.
February 27th, 2008 at 2:21 pm
“I don’t know if anyone else saw this but Bill Simmons from ESPN calls for an entire mailbag of Seattle fans voicing their grievances at the end of this column:
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/080227
Let’s get’er done and shoot some emails. ”
Absolutely!!!! Sent.
February 27th, 2008 at 2:23 pm
“- Apparently you did not take the time to read the article linked by Crow (and also found in TrueHoop) about the offensive system implemented in Memphis. Perhaps you should read about the dribble penetration offense they rely before you start commenting…that might make you sound a little more like you know what you are talking about.”
Myk, you form the dumbest, most abstract and disjointed arguments about basketball that I’ve ever heard. First of all, in one of the last few threads where the topic at hand was Bayless vs. Rose I pointed out the exact same thing about Memphis offense, though it was after AK had also brought it up. Second, your point has absolutely nothing to do with what I said. The fact that Rose’s playmaking abilities are most likely hindered by Memphis’ offense does not mean that he’d definitely be a prolific assist man in the NCAA - so your “point” was really weak - nor does it somehow indicate that Bayless’ playmaking skills are inferior. It just means that there’s more to this story than the statistics.
February 27th, 2008 at 2:41 pm
Q: Dude, can we just have a mailbag full of Seattle fans releasing their collective anguish and hatred? An injustice like this should not go down quietly.
– Erick, Los Angeles
SG: Absolutely. Send me the e-mails, make sure you put “Seattle” or “Seattle Raping” in the subject heading, and we’ll run them next week.
- Alright everyone…the challenge has been put down. The Sports Guy said he’ll run a whole mailbag column about the Seattle situation…give him some good material:
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=feedback/sportsguy
February 27th, 2008 at 2:45 pm
” “I don’t know if anyone else saw this but Bill Simmons from ESPN calls for an entire mailbag of Seattle fans voicing their grievances at the end of this column:”
Done. Maybe someone could give props to Erick from LA for sparking the idea. I didn’t really think about it until afterwards. Certainly can’t hurt to encourage the out of town support.
February 27th, 2008 at 2:48 pm
The fact that Rose’s playmaking abilities are most likely hindered by Memphis’ offense does not mean that he’d definitely be a prolific assist man in the NCAA - so your “point” was really weak - nor does it somehow indicate that Bayless’ playmaking skills are inferior. It just means that there’s more to this story than the statistics.
- Im just pointing out why it may appear that Bayless is a better PG…when in fact he is not. Bayless is a playmaker in the same way that Allen Iverson is a playmaker. They dominate the ball and drive so often that the times they get stopped they are usually able to dump the ball to a big man or an open shooter for a shot…its not “necessarily” creating offense as it is finding an outlet once he gets stop. Rose on the other hand creates offense for his teammates.
I’d rather have Rose’s skills then Bayless’ skills at PG. As I said earlier Bayless looks like a Dwyane Wade type player…could be great, but still need to see him do better against physical teams.
February 27th, 2008 at 2:48 pm
“How about Earl and a second rounder to the Bobcats for Adam Morrison and Ryan Hollins”
But Gelly and Morrison both have long hair and the same goofy mustache. How will I be able to tell them apart?
February 27th, 2008 at 2:51 pm
It just means that there’s more to this story than the statistics.
- Also…sorry if I misinterpreted your comments when it appeared that you don’t believe that different offensive systems could make Rose and Bayless’ numbers to appear similar when they really are not…
February 27th, 2008 at 2:57 pm
- They didn’t play the same type of aggressive defense that UW played.
WSU always plays aggressive defense, especially Weaver. Yes, they don’t tend to need to rely on “gimmick” defensive schemes.
Plus, how often do you think Bayless will run into “gimmick” style defensive schemes at the NBA level desigend to shadow him all night long?
Rose and Bayless are both solid players and both will be good PG’s in the NBA. I just find it entertaining when fans here try and create Rose into being this great PG facilitator then blame it on the “system” because the stats don’t reflect this claim. There is no reason both of them can’t be good distributors when they get to the NBA. I think Rose will be the better perimeter defender and Bayless will prove to have better individual scoring ability, but both should be able to distirbute the ball when put in a system that makes distributing the ball their focus.
Both are good, but neither are Chris Paul.
February 27th, 2008 at 2:59 pm
…when in fact he is not.
Actually, it is opinion, not “fact” regarding which is a better “PG” or who’s skills will translate in which way to the NBA level.
February 27th, 2008 at 3:00 pm
Plus, how often do you think Bayless will run into “gimmick” style defensive schemes at the NBA level desigend to shadow him all night long?
- Since the players in the NBA are so much more phyiscal they don’t need to do a gimmick defense to do what UW did. If little Vernoy Overton can muscle up on Bayless, what do you think a guy like Baron Davis will do to the guy.
I just find it entertaining when fans here try and create Rose into being this great PG facilitator then blame it on the “system” because the stats don’t reflect this claim.
- Then you should look more into the system…
Both are good, but neither are Chris Paul.
- No arguments there…
February 27th, 2008 at 3:02 pm
Actually, it is opinion, not “fact” regarding which is a better “PG” or who’s skills will translate in which way to the NBA level.
- So you would prefer to have a DWade/AI type “playmaker” playing PG for the Soncis over CP3/DWilliams??
February 27th, 2008 at 3:05 pm
” Also…sorry if I misinterpreted your comments when it appeared that you don’t believe that different offensive systems could make Rose and Bayless’ numbers to appear similar when they really are not…”
Where do you come up with this stuff? They’re numbers aren’t really that similar at all…
Rose: MPG 28.1, Pts 14.1, FG% 46.2, FT% 67.8, Asst 4.3, Stls 1.3, TO 3.
Bayless: MPG 36, Pts 21.1, FG% 47.8, FT% 83.3, Asst 4.4, Stls 1, TO 3.2
February 27th, 2008 at 3:09 pm
“- So you would prefer to have a DWade/AI type “playmaker” playing PG for the Soncis over CP3/DWilliams??”
You see, you have no idea what the difference between your highly subjective opinion is and what’s actually a fact. Remember how sure most of us were about how Durant’s season would pan out? Come on man. Facts are proven.
Ha ha, you think Rose is CP3 or Deron Williams and that’s factual? You’ve got to be kidding me.
February 27th, 2008 at 3:13 pm
Scott - I can be a harsh critic. Idaho played about 95% of those games at home (the win streak had maybe 3 road games in it) -and Sene played a little more than half the time in each of those games. They have a bunch of decent players.
Sene’s shooting % and FT% and rebounding #’s have fallen off of late. Not sure if it is teams game planning for him now (no easy pick and rolls for dunks) or if he is taking different kinds of shots. I have seen him throw up a few, not too many, wild shots and he has a good deal of work to do on his little jump hook.
The main thing is that he gets beat by physical play - at least it appears to me that way. He is one of the youngest players in the league - so that must be considered.
I still think he should play over Elson though. The five or so minutes I have seen of Elson shows that he sucks. Why not give Sene some run I say.
February 27th, 2008 at 3:13 pm
you don’t believe that different offensive systems could make Rose and Bayless’ numbers to appear similar when they really are not…
Actually, the numbers don’t just “appear” similar, they are “similar”.
I think what you are trying to say is that their “PG skills” appear similar when, in your opinion, they are not.
But its not like Bayless is “dominating” the ball in the Arizona system, like you are trying to portray he is. The Arizona starting PG (Wise) handles the ball significant amounts of time when he is not injured (as reflected in his 4 asts/game, as well), in addition Budinger is jacking up shots like they are going out of style in Arizona at a pretty inefficient rate.
Bayless doesn’t fit the mold of a high volume, low percentage, in-efficient, ball dominating player like Iverson, IMO. Bayless is actually a pretty efficient, high percentage scorer (for a guard) who doesn’t need to dominate the ball to be effective.
February 27th, 2008 at 3:14 pm
Ha ha, you think Rose is CP3 or Deron Williams and that’s factual? You’ve got to be kidding me.
- I think that Rose is much more likely to be a PG in the mold of CP3 and DWilliams and Bayless would much more likely be a player like AI/Arenas/Wade who create their own shot and get assists off of that…
You really find this to be a big jump in logic??
February 27th, 2008 at 3:15 pm
- Then you should look more into the system…
Don’t need to. I’ve watched Rose play a number of games this season and the “system” isn’t holding him back. He’s still learning how to be an effective distributor and creator of shots for his teammates which is impact his stats more, IMO than the “system”.
February 27th, 2008 at 3:17 pm
One more thing to throw into the Rose/ Bayless debate. Let’s not forget the huge gap in quality of opposition between the two conferences they play in. Bayless’ numbers come while playing one of the most difficult schedules in the country, while the majority of Memphis’ games care against very weak in-conference opposition.
The amount of high-level NBA prospects in the Pac-10 makes Bayless’ accomplishments that much more impressive. The fact that he’s accomplished more against tougher competition suggests that there is far less projection involved in evaluating his NBA potential. I’d say Bayless is the safer pick. Rose COULD be better long-term, but there’s a lot of risk in projecting off potential with such a young player, especially a PG.
February 27th, 2008 at 3:20 pm
- So you would prefer to have a DWade/AI type “playmaker” playing PG for the Soncis over CP3/DWilliams??
I don’t agree with your “player comparisons” so I don’t think that is a valid question.
Plus, CP3 and Deron Williams are completely different types of PG’s.
I don’t think CP3 is a good comp for Rose at all.
February 27th, 2008 at 3:20 pm
whoops, should be:
“…the majority of Memphis’ games come against very weak in-conference opposition”…
February 27th, 2008 at 3:26 pm
“- I think that Rose is much more likely to be a PG in the mold of CP3 and DWilliams and Bayless would much more likely be a player like AI/Arenas/Wade who create their own shot and get assists off of that…
You really find this to be a big jump in logic??”
Jump? I don’t see a jump. If you said that was your opinion on how the players would pan out, then I would respect that. But instead you were addressing Frozen as if your projection was factual. That’s where you get things all mixed up.
As I’ve said before, I’d rather have Rose at this point. But that in no way should take away from Bayless’ stellar play or the possibility that he could fit in quite nicely as a player here. It doesn’t have to be a ceremony of opposites all the time. You don’t seem to have any in-between, just polar extremes in your characterizations of players.
February 27th, 2008 at 3:27 pm
RE Foster
“And how is that a bad thing? All I said was that Foster should receive strong consideration from Presti in the second round. Perhaps the Sonics should trade down to draft him but I believe the value of obtaining a player who could potentially shoot forty percent from three is just too high to pass up in the second round.”
See Trajan Langdon. If all you can do is shoot 3s…..then fail to do so in the NBA…..your done. Being a good 3 point shooter can never be a negative. Being one dimensional can be though. It wouldn’t bother me if they used a late 2nd rounder on someone like that. They wouldn’t make the team anyway.
February 27th, 2008 at 3:32 pm
Just looked it up:
-Arizona #1 strength of schedule in the country.
-Memphis is #15 (higher than I thought, must have shot up after facing #1 Tennessee)
February 27th, 2008 at 3:34 pm
- So you would prefer to have a DWade/AI type “playmaker” playing PG for the Soncis over CP3/DWilliams??
….and I don’t see Bayless as being an Iverson/Wade type player, either. Both of those guys averaged more shots per game than Bayless does.
February 27th, 2008 at 3:45 pm
See Trajan Langdon. If all you can do is shoot 3s…..then fail to do so in the NBA…..your done.
Or he could be Kyle Korver, who has become a very effective 3pt shooter off the bench for both the 6ers and now Utah.
Successull, teams need guys who can shoot from the outside. Its not like the Sonics are loaded with outside shooters right now.
Mence, You seem a bit extreme on your opinion of Foster. If I didn’t know better I’d guess he’d done something to you personally. Its not like the Sonics have a roster full of guys that fill their roles perfectly or have tons of talent. I actually think there NEEDS to be a roster spot going into next year for a guy who is a quality outside (3pt) shooter. Basically, that’s what Channel Z was providing for the Sonics and going forward it would be helpful. Whether that guy is Foster or someone else they draft in the 2nd round or some FA they sign, regardless, its is a position that is lacking on the Sonics right now.
February 27th, 2008 at 3:51 pm
Dwyane Wade Junior Year:
32mpg 21.5ppg 7.6/15.2 for 50.1%, 4.4a/pg, 3.2to/pg
Jarred Bayless:
36mpg 21.1ppg 6.2/12.9 for 47.8%, 4.4a/pg 3.2to/pg
These players are not all that similar?? Bayless is a bit better of a 3pt shooter and FT shooter right now..and Wade just made a couple more buckets
February 27th, 2008 at 3:56 pm
It’d be really helpful if more sites had a player’s college stats linked to them..
February 27th, 2008 at 3:57 pm
Dwyane Wade Junior Year:
32mpg 21.5ppg 7.6/15.2 for 50.1%, 4.4a/pg, 3.2to/pg
Jarred Bayless:
36mpg 21.1ppg 6.2/12.9 for 47.8%, 4.4a/pg 3.2to/pg
These players are not all that similar?? Bayless is a bit better of a 3pt shooter and FT shooter right now..and Wade just made a couple more buckets
Odd, Myk. You just got done trying to convice us all that despite Rose and Bayless’ numbers being very similar they are not similar players. Now you are going to take the opposite side and try and make the point that Bayless and Wade are simliar style players BECAUSE their stat numbers are similar?
February 27th, 2008 at 3:59 pm
Plus, CP3 and Deron Williams are completely different types of PG’s.
- Other than CP3 being better than DWilliams…how would you say they are different types of PGs?? Where do their styles differ?? Are they not similar enough to be categorized together as compared to the scoring/shooting first players who still get assists such as AI/Arenas/Wade??
February 27th, 2008 at 4:00 pm
The level of competition is kind of a moot point, when Rose more then showed up against Tennessee. He put up 21 against one of the top teams in the country, so while you could say he hasn’t played against that great of teams, he showed up against one of the best
February 27th, 2008 at 4:01 pm
Odd, Myk. You just got done trying to convice us all that despite Rose and Bayless’ numbers being very similar they are not similar players.
- Im sorry I was only referring to the distribution numbers when discussing Bayless and Rose. People seem to think that they are at similiar levels of being distributors and I do not believe this to be the case. Rose is a better PG. He plays in a system that isn’t designed to be a distributor and he still does a good job.
February 27th, 2008 at 4:03 pm
Odd, Myk. You just got done trying to convice us all that despite Rose and Bayless’ numbers being very similar they are not similar players. Now you are going to take the opposite side and try and make the point that Bayless and Wade are simliar style players BECAUSE their stat numbers are similar
- Also, you know it is possible to step away and look at the way they play the game. If you don’t see how Bayless and Dwyane Wade are similar players from the stats AND from watching Bayless play then you just aren’t gonna see it. Seems pretty obvious to me.
For as great of a player that DWade is…I don’t think he would be as good as a PG in the NBA…in fact they tried to make him that his rookie year and it didn’t work out all that great.
February 27th, 2008 at 4:06 pm
DWade did not and still does not have a great outside shot. Wade did and does most of his scoring mid-range and closer. Wade also was a pretty substantial rebounder in college.
Bayless has a significantly better outside shot and takes a more outside shots during the course of a game.
Bayless is a much quicker player player than Wade. Wade uses his size and strength to beat players and get in the paint, while Bayless takes advantage of his superior speed and quickness to get open shots or by the defender. In addition, Bayless actually gets to the line quite a bit more than Wade did in College.
Bayless is averaging 7.8 FTA per game while Wade averaged 4.8 FTA his last season.
Are their some similarities to their games? Yes, but I don’t think Wade is a good comp for Bayless. In watching them both play, their games and styles of play don’t reflect each other very well.
February 27th, 2008 at 4:08 pm
- Also, you know it is possible to step away and look at the way they play the game. If you don’t see how Bayless and Dwyane Wade are similar players from the stats AND from watching Bayless play then you just aren’t gonna see it. Seems pretty obvious to me.
There appears to be a number of items in this discussion today that “appear pretty obvious” to you and not everyone else.
And having watched both play, no I don’t think their games are that comparable for the reason’s I mention in the post that will appear right above this one.
February 27th, 2008 at 4:11 pm
“For as great of a player that DWade is…I don’t think he would be as good as a PG in the NBA…in fact they tried to make him that his rookie year and it didn’t work out all that great.”
Uh, great point about Wade, unfortunately for you that’s not who we’re talking about.
“- Also, you know it is possible to step away and look at the way they play the game”
How many times are you going to change your vantage point on this and then act like no one else sees what you do? You don’t have an argument, you just change your stance and act like you’re the only one who gets it. That’s the only thing that’s really obvious here.
February 27th, 2008 at 4:13 pm
The level of competition is kind of a moot point, when Rose more then showed up against Tennessee. He put up 21 against one of the top teams in the country, so while you could say he hasn’t played against that great of teams, he showed up against one of the best
That’s one game though. Bayless averages 21 against that caliber of competition on an almost nightly basis.
Rose meanwhile struggled the two times he played Pac-10 competition (Arizona, USC) and has put up his share of stinkers against very subpar teams, something Bayless doesn’t have the luxury of doing.
February 27th, 2008 at 4:23 pm
- Other than CP3 being better than DWilliams…how would you say they are different types of PGs?? Where do their styles differ??
CP3 is all about speed and quickness. He blows by defenders with his quickness and other guards just can’t keep up.
DWill gets his advantage through strength and his size. He doesn’t blow by guys like CP3 does, he uses his strength to get into the position he wants. He’s actually kind of slow and methodical when you watch him….fits the Utah system perfectly.
Are they not similar enough to be categorized together as compared to the scoring/shooting first players who still get assists such as AI/Arenas/Wade??
I guess if you categorize small fast PG’s the same as bigger slower PG’s then maybe, but I don’t.
And as far as shoot first vs pass fist type PGs……..CP3 is actually closer to DWade in shot attempts per game than he is to DWill.
Game styles and PG styles are not black or white. They more often combine some aspects of one and some aspects of the other. There are typically extreme styles on both ends of the spectrum and alot more players in the middle that have characteristics combined from both score and pass styles.
February 27th, 2008 at 4:27 pm
For as great of a player that DWade is…I don’t think he would be as good as a PG in the NBA…in fact they tried to make him that his rookie year and it didn’t work out all that great.
Agreed, I don’t think DWade is a PG. He truly is a lead guard and his skill set tends to lean that way.
February 27th, 2008 at 4:39 pm
Let’s just say that Menace is not a fan of Kyle Korver-type players even though it is pretty clear to those who follow the Jazz that Korver has been a difference maker and one of the reasons why they have a legitimate chance at a championship. Shooting becomes even more valuable in the fourth quarter of games and that is why Sloan has played Korver, rather than Menace’s boy Ronnie Brewer, in the most critical moments of the game.
Trajan Langdon is an unfair comparison to Foster; Langdon had a good effective field goal percentage in college partially because he played on a team with players who also made the NBA (Elton Brand, Shane Battier); they created shots for Langdon. This season, Foster is performing better than Langdon ever did and is indisputably, the best player on a top-twenty five team in a fairly respectable conference. Foster has never played with anybody who has played a game in the NBA.
As for Steve’s Morrison/Foster comment, it should be noted that Morrison did not shoot well from the college three-point line in his career and played against far inferior competition than Foster.
February 27th, 2008 at 4:45 pm
This debate’s getting a little rediculous, IMO. It seems like some people are using the fact that Bayless compares favorably to Wade (at a younger age and vs. tougher comp.) as a reason NOT to draft him?
I realize everyone has their preferences in terms of style, and Wade isn’t exactly my cup-of-tea, but if Bayless can be anywhere NEAR what Wade is the NBA, he’s the pick for me and every single GM in the league.
Sure, I’d rather have a great pure PG, but the chances Rose becomes the next DW or CP are very slim, as those types of players are extremely rare. If it ever does happen, it likely takes AT LEAST 2-3 years for a 19yo to reach that level, with a lot of potential snags along way.
In that case I’ll take the guy who’s almost certainly ready to contribute immediately based on his current performance, regardless of style. If Bayless becomes the next Monta Ellis instead of Wade, I’ll take that too.
(For the record, I think Bayless is more of a PG than those two…)
February 27th, 2008 at 4:56 pm
Courtsense, the only thing that would concern me about Lee is the competition that he has had to face throughout his career; it seems that Foster has quite an edge on him on this matter. Lee is receiving more “hype” right now than Foster. I like both guys but I wouldn’t spend the first rounder on them; I would take either of them with the second rounder. A player who can shoot the lights out from three provides too much value to pass up with a low-risk second round pick.
February 27th, 2008 at 5:00 pm
I like both guys but I wouldn’t spend the first rounder on them; I would take either of them with the second rounder. A player who can shoot the lights out from three provides too much value to pass up with a low-risk second round pick.
Agreed. I think either would represent decent value in the 2nd round and reflect the kind of player the Sonics should target with one of their 2nd round picks.
February 27th, 2008 at 7:18 pm
I wrote to the sportsguy
February 27th, 2008 at 8:11 pm
courtsense Says:
What do we have to offer a rebuilding team to move up in the draft order?
How about six 1st round picks - with at least 2 of them likely to be high lottery picks - and seven 2nd round picks in the next 3 drafts; the expiring contracts of Wilcox, Marshall, and Griffin; and the remaining contracts/services of Wilkins, Watson, and Ridnour.
Shouldn’t Presti include his first born child in that deal?
What type of players/long term contracts are you willing to take back from those crappy teams to make the salaries work? Also remember you can’t trade your own 1st in consecutive drafts, so the Sonics only have one sure lottery pick to offer.
February 28th, 2008 at 12:37 am
Life as a California Sonics fan is not easy. I got to go to the game last night, and Oakland fans are very unforgiving, but when they play like they did last night, it makes me proud to be the only green in a sea of blue and yellow, even if we didn’t get the win. That was a fun game to be at.
February 28th, 2008 at 10:10 pm
Steve Says:
“I’m seriously considering putting the words Luke and Earl in the moderation queue.
Criminy can we just admit either one would be in the bottom 10% of starting PGs in the NBA and MOVE ON.
Thank you. ”
February 28th, 2008 at 10:32 pm
courtsense Says:
“What do we have to offer a rebuilding team to move up in the draft order?
How about six 1st round picks - with at least 2 of them likely to be high lottery picks - and seven 2nd round picks in the next 3 drafts; the expiring contracts of Wilcox, Marshall, and Griffin; and the remaining contracts/services of Wilkins, Watson, and Ridnour.
Presti should be able to create some kind of trade package out of those resources with which to entice a team to move down a few spots in the lottery - and if he can’t, then he’s just not doing his J-O-B. The whole point of having 13 picks and flexibility is to consolidate those resources into high-impact players. ”
I sure like this approach IF Presti is able to do it. He didn’t make any consolidation trades prior to this season which could be because:
a) He wanted time to make deals,
b) He wanted PJ to endlessly evaluate as large a herd of mediocre players as possible.
c) No other teams offered much of interest.
d) He liked watching this team.
Recent trades have sorted some of that picture out if the likely expiring contract guys just go away, but we still have way to many players if you count all those picks and not much quality.
My vote is to package enough to get a top 3 or 4 pick in this draft to give us two in the top 3-5(one being our current high pick of course). Probably have to trade players/picks/and pick up less than desireble contracts to do it.
June 12th, 2008 at 4:13 am
Jack
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