council@saveoursonics.org
Posted on Tuesday, March 18th, 2008 at 6:50 am by Brian Robinson
For the record this e-mail address has been set up to deliver messages to all members of the Seattle City Council. If you haven’t yet you should drop them a line asking them to support the mayors plans and find a way to work with the new potential ownership group.
I’m feeling good about things people. This mayor is going to deserve a lot of credit when all is said and done. I’ve criticized him in the past but his office has simply played things just right.
I wish I felt so good about the product on the floor. The simple truth is that these guys have given up. The culture of losing is so deep that I wonder how many of these guys will ever make a meaningful contribution as a Sonic. You can look at Durant but below that I think that each and every player, and that includes some of my favorites like Nick Collison, would benefit from a change of scenery. The perpetual “bad vibe” is going to be tough to purge even if we get new ownership and a fresh start.
council@saveoursonics.org
March 18th, 2008 at 7:34 am
Saw this promising Op-Ed in the PI.
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/opinion/355339_sonics18.html
March 18th, 2008 at 7:49 am
We as fans just can’t let the recent bad games get us down. I will be honest, as much faith as I have placed in this team saying….I got a little down myself…..let’s not let this process give Stern, Bennett, and Associate what they want. Keep standing up to them and anyone who would dismiss this franchise and it’s fan base.
March 18th, 2008 at 7:50 am
There are parts of the team that may be salvaged, but nobody that is contributing to the situation is in a position to objectively resolve it, especially the person that put this together, Sam Presti.
So, this is what it was like to be a Clippers fan before they traded for Brand.
March 18th, 2008 at 8:23 am
…., but nobody that is contributing to the situation is in a position to objectively resolve it, especially the person that put this together, Sam Presti.
I’m not sure I completely agree with that Bake……
I think what we are seeing is a young team, with some re-treads added through trades at the deadline that we all knew were coming, as part of the overall process. I’m not giving Presti a “pass” by any means on this, however we have to also realize that, the roster overhaul is only started.
We witnessed what a huge difference just having a couple veterans on the roster that could still play and be affective and what an impact that had on the team (Thomas and Channel Z). There is still a lot of turnover than needs to happen on this roster.
What happened the other night in Denver, was a young, tired team that just plain has checked out.
Ideally, if new management gets the chance to take over, they will also get rid of PJ and bring in a legit coach who will demand the players respect and, if nothing else, get them to play hard.
The team essentially, needs to address four of the 5 starting positions during the offseason.
PG
SG
PF
Center.
Durant should be moved to the starting SF position, the sooner the better. We’ve all witnessed how much more efficient he can be, when he’s not forcing up long range 3 pointers all the time and spending more time in the closer range, taking higher percentage shots. It is amazing how Durant has magically become a better “shooter” this month. Must just be a “lucky streak”. Its not like he could have actually changed anything in his game to account for the improved FG% this month.
Watson should probably be kept around at the PG position to take the pressure off whatever rookie we end up with and work to transition them in. Ridnour needs to be dealt for the good of him and the team.
Wilcox has the highest upside of all our PF’s however, he’s also the least consistent and worst defender. Between Collison, Green and a draft pick, they need to find a solution at PF. Trade the other pieces and draft players to fill the holes at Center and SG. The team can’t count on Swift, so its best option is probably to not tender him a contract and sign a vet or trade for one to compete with Petro and Sene next season.
Lots of options and lots of moves that still need to be made before this roster is anywhere close to ready to compete.
It’s a long, slow road home………
March 18th, 2008 at 8:26 am
Great to see Jeanne Kohl Wells and Margarita Prentice speaking up again. It has been awhile since we heard from Prentice especially.
March 18th, 2008 at 8:34 am
Alot of misinformed people on the PI soundoff board.
March 18th, 2008 at 8:43 am
Seattle and the investors ran their strategy and it didn’t include anyone but the very top leaders.
I assume Prentice wasn’t courted / given a role and so she was silent.
This letter in the PI Ken links to reaffirms desire to save the Sonics.
It stops short of calling for a special session. The only way that happens I think is if the committee Rep. Hunter is heading calls for it. I hope that group is meeting this week. I hope Hunter and Ceis are talking a lot.
March 18th, 2008 at 9:03 am
I find it comical that everyone is just coming to the realization that most of our team sucks and won’t be around in a few years. Umm…what did you expect? Collison would magically learn how to finish and gain enough quickness/explosion to compete night in and night out? OH wait, you all assumed he was a “heady” player when he hasn’t shown any of that (always drawing stupid fouls, making poor decisions, etc.). Wilcox…seriously?!?!? You thought he might suddenly become a decent defender? Or bring consistent effort? Tee-hee. Good one. Earl? Luke? I’ll admit, I was one that had hopes for Swift, but that ship has sailed. We are a horribly flawed team. A bad team. We knew that at the beginning of the year, and now it has conclusively been proven. Presti new that at the beginning of the year and he knows it now. Any of you that are implying that he “built” the current configuration are way off base. The current team is just what we ended up with at a point in time on the rebuilding continuum. Don’t dwell on it. The summer is when the next permutation will happen. It won’t be an end point, for sure. But hopefully we can add another piece or two that will make up that end point (championship caliber team).
Yep…it’s discouraging when the team stops playing with effort. But that’s bound to happen a time or two with really bad, really young teams. IT takes time to rebuild in the NBA. The CBA forces that. Hopefully we fight for the playoffs the year after next. That’s my goal.
March 18th, 2008 at 9:11 am
i can’t imagine letting colison walk now… I think he has matured a lot this season and tbh i’ve been waiting a long time for him to become more consistent. Now that he is, i’d like to keep him a little longer. we’ve paid the price of player development for the past few seasons, now would not be the time to trade away one of our few successful projects
March 18th, 2008 at 9:14 am
I don’t think shaking this negative culture would be too difficult if given new ownership. The subtraction of PJ along with the influx of renewed fan optimism and support would go a long way in changing the overall feeling on the team. Right now the 3 biggest negatives IMO are 1) PJ, 2) Ownership’s lack of support for the team while it’s in Seattle 3) the uneasiness of Sonics fans. Get rid of Clay and PJ and these are virtually all solved.
March 18th, 2008 at 9:21 am
Tough to say what the culture of this team would be with new local ownership. A new group may want a new coach and new GM and 11 new players to go along with Durant. It is hard to say. So many questions. Right now I don’t think the potential new owners are thinking of the makeup of the team, right now it is just about saving this team from OKC. The team will be what the team will be until the whole arena situation is solved. Hopefully this summer it will all be resolved but it could go into 2010 before we know what is really happening which would lead to two very bad seasons. Clay will not build this team to win in Seattle!!
March 18th, 2008 at 9:23 am
I find it comical that everyone is just coming to the realization that most of our team sucks and won’t be around in a few years. Umm…what did you expect?
[...]
We are a horribly flawed team. A bad team. We knew that at the beginning of the year, and now it has conclusively been proven. Presti new that at the beginning of the year and he knows it now. Any of you that are implying that he “built” the current configuration are way off base.
I agree 100%. It’s called “rebuilding”. The Sonics have needed to do it for years. They’re finally doing it now. Rebuilding means: a lack of talent (except for incoming youth) and losing games. That’s what the Sonics are doing right now. Rebuilding.
Some teams are better at it than others. The post-Jordan Bulls were horrible, going through three different rebuilding strategies (Elton Brand, Chandler/Curry) until they finally found one that worked a couple of years ago (and then for some reason it all went south on them this year).
The Sonics, along with the Suns and Trailblazers for decades have been quite good at it, usually enduring only a few seasons modestly below-.500 to create new good rosters built around the Drexlers, Kevin Johnsons, Nashes, Stoudemires, Paytons, Kemps, etc. that they always seem to manage to come up with.
For most of the past decade, the Sonics have not lived up to their tradition of rebuilding relatively quickly and painlessly. Most of that I think is Wally Walker’s fault, secondarily Howard Schulz’s. That’s left them in their current situation. With Presti they’ve got one of the most promising front office men for a successful rebuild; Clay Bennet of course has his own set of flaws.
March 18th, 2008 at 9:24 am
“OH wait, you all assumed he was a “heady” player when he hasn’t shown any of that (always drawing stupid fouls, making poor decisions, etc.).”
The problem Collison’s always going to have is going to be on the athleticism front, the problem he’ll never have is knowing the game. He doesn’t make stupid fouls, he’s the only guy on the team that knows how to play help defense. What may look like a stupid foul to some, is a dunk with any of our other bigs on the court because they’re not close to where they should be on help defense.
I rarely see Nick make poor decisions. Getting your shot blocked isn’t a poor decision. Nick might be one of the 10 most fundimental players in the league, he also may be way lower than most on the athleticism charts and that probably costs him.
“I think he has matured a lot this season and tbh i’ve been waiting a long time for him to become more consistent. Now that he is, i’d like to keep him a little longer.”
I’d like to see what he could do with a serious talent playing alongside of him up front. Let him be the intangibles guy.
March 18th, 2008 at 9:32 am
I think resolving the team staying or not will determine the morale of the team. WE actually suck enough to get some great talent through picks. I personally wanted to take Stucky with the #5 pick but I hope Green proves me wrong.
March 18th, 2008 at 9:33 am
P.S. I hate trolls!
March 18th, 2008 at 9:37 am
See, this is where I disagree on Collison. I want to like him and I try to see him as this ultra-heady player, but I just don’t see it. Yep, he tries to play help defense, but he’s not very good at it (too slow/late, no shot-blocking). He tries to set screens, but he’s awful at that (just doesn’t have that knack that some do for moving just enough to get the guy without drawing a foul…he either just stands there which makes it easy for the defender to get around him or moves too much and gets the foul called). Going up for a shot and getting it blocked isn’t always a poor decision, but oftentimes it is. You need to play within yourself, and getting repeatedly blocked is not playing within yourself.
I’m not saying he’s worthless and I’m fine with him coming off the bench at the 4. But he’s somewhere around an 8th man on the roster, not exactly an essential cog in a winning team.
March 18th, 2008 at 9:41 am
I think Jeff Green can be the answer at PF. He’s a player that works extremely well WITH the team (I watched him at Georgetown for years) - not someone who operates on his own. Since we haven’t had a consistent rotation, and on top of that we have big holes at PG, SG, and C, it’s been hard for him to shine. He’ll improve as the team improves.
March 18th, 2008 at 9:41 am
Collison is one of those guys that every team would love to have on their roster. Cap friendly, smart basketball player, hard worker. He’s not going to wow you with athleticism like Scott points out, but he’s valuable. What remains to be seen is if Nick wants to stick around on our roster for the long term or not. If the rebuilding process ends up taking a lot longer than expected, he might opt to become a free agent in 2011/12 and go to a contender, so I could see him getting shipped out in 2010/11 if we haven’t turned the corner by then.
March 18th, 2008 at 10:19 am
“Yep, he tries to play help defense, but he’s not very good at it (too slow/late, no shot-blocking).”
Therein lies the other part of our defensive problems, the guards don’t really allow a good help defender the ability to play solid help defense. We don’t force a guy in any direction, how do you play help defense if you have ot cover your guy, and both driving lanes? In most cases Collison’s a step slow (as was Thomas a lot when he was here) because they’re playing a guy to go baseline and the perimeter defender lets them get to the middle. By the time they step in they’re a step late because they’ve got an extra step to go.
“But he’s somewhere around an 8th man on the roster, not exactly an essential cog in a winning team.”
He’d start on most of the top teams in the league, or at worst be the first big off the bench. he’s exactly an essential cog on a winning team, those who don’t think so…don’t know how to put together winning teams.
Guy that can step in and play multiple positions, doesn’t need the ball in his hands to be effective, plays smart defense, doesn’t complain about his role (and 90% of NBA players in his position might have choked PJ by now) and is solid in the locker room. If that’s not the definition of essential cog I don’t know what is.
March 18th, 2008 at 10:26 am
For all his maneuvering Presti has 10 guys on squad from last season after 9 months. How many remain next year? If it is 8 (plus Durant & Green) that will be too many, too slow. If it is closer to 5 (by Nov. or next Feb.) that will qualify as more aggressive.
With 4-7 new faces Sonics will have chance to be a little different but 3-4 positions in the rotation will probably still look a lot like they do now. It will probably take even another round to complete the job.
Collison would be fine as 7th or 8th man. You could argue the same for Wilcox or Green. The odds of Wilcox being on the team in Nov. 09 seem remote to me.
March 18th, 2008 at 10:26 am
Nobody said Collison was an All-Star…but depending on who he has around him, he’s a valuable piece on a good team as a 7th or 8th man.
I’d rather have Nick than any of the other PF/C on this roster.
March 18th, 2008 at 10:34 am
I just barely caught something on Softy’s show about a David Stern interview with Stephen A. Smith where Stern called the Ballmer group’s moves “a PR stunt.” Anyone know anything about it?
March 18th, 2008 at 10:36 am
I guess the audio for the Stern interview is up. Don’t have time to listen to it just yet:
http://tinyurl.com/2c5ey9
March 18th, 2008 at 10:43 am
If you gave playoff ranked GM’s in the west the chance to replace a starter on their squad with any Sonic- just for this season- I don’t think any Sonic would get pulled more than a few times and maybe none at all. Durant and Wilcox might get taken a few times. (The east might be different but I don’t pay much attention to it.)
Collison? I’d guess not. But being a top 8 guy is still important. He is a keeper- unless in a package you got someone clearly better for a bigger. longer role. Many players of his type slow down after 27 instead of getting better. He will probably maintain longer than average but I am not expecting further upside from him. He could improve his outside game further but I’d treat that as a surpise rahter than an expectation.
March 18th, 2008 at 10:48 am
“Stern called the Ballmer group’s moves “a PR stunt.” ”
Don’t worry. He’ll be the first person in line to kiss Steve Ballmer’s ass if they end up with a club.
Stern is manipulating the message as always. It’s his job.
March 18th, 2008 at 10:49 am
Collison = Horace Grant.
Not a guy who would be a top 3 offensive option onany team but an essential part of a successful club.
March 18th, 2008 at 10:57 am
How about the Sonics taking a shot on Gerald Green who was released by the rockets last week? He is young and a great athlete! He needs some work on the court, but i think it could be a low risk/high reward type gamble for the Sonics. Last year in 26 games as a starter he averaged 16 pts, and he did win a slam dunk contest. If he pans out you would have another great athlete to put beside Durant and Green.
March 18th, 2008 at 11:11 am
Stern says in the interview and i quote ” i like to see fans get rewarded when they are loyal” and everybody knows larger markets tend to get higher ratings”. Now he wasnt specifically talking about the Sonics when he said this, but i think it is funny considering he is taking a team with 41 years of loyal fans and the 12th largest market to the 45th! Makes no sense whatsoever. He said he feels bad for the fans of Seattle, and that he puts the blame on the Mayor and deputy Mayor of Seattle for this situation. I wish Stephen A would have said something about the $150 million and the new ownership group though!
March 18th, 2008 at 11:21 am
Gerald Green is another in a long line of great athletes with no real basketball skills. He can’t dribble or pass and the jury’s out on his shooting. Whatever minimal game he has is built completely around his athleticism; guys like that never last. Unless he can get his turnovers way way down he’s useless to virtually any team.
The Rockets just traded for him 3 weeks ago and already cut him; that’s a huge red flag for possible attitude problems.
March 18th, 2008 at 11:27 am
“The Rockets just traded for him 3 weeks ago and already cut him; that’s a huge red flag for possible attitude problems.”
Not to mentiont that htey cut him and he’s from…gulp…Houston.
March 18th, 2008 at 11:40 am
“He said he feels bad for the fans of Seattle, and that he puts the blame on the Mayor and deputy Mayor of Seattle for this situation. I wish Stephen A would have said something about the $150 million and the new ownership group though! ”
I will put no blame on CVD or the mayor, or any public official for not having supported a $500 million Mega Facility. Especially one that would not have been a benefit to anyone but Clay and the NBA. That’s bullcrap. I wish someone would have brought up the fact that our market is so much bigger that even though the vote for the Mega Facility didn’t go through….it still had something like 10,000 more yes votes than the OKC vote for 121 million dollars. Even if the vote would have passed Clay and David would have tried to find whatever means they could contractually to high tail it out of dodge(in this case seattle) at any time even after the Mega Facility would have been built(i.e. OKC). The NBA never sat down with local prospects and attempted to help this city find local ownership. Howard Schultz is Judas Iscariot and David Stern is a dirtbag modern-day version of Ciaphas. Having said that, I am going to maintain the faith that everything will be ok in the end. If we lose this team and the NBA never comes back, then I have decided that I will not work to destroy anyone or anything that didn’t work to our favor. Instead, I am going to just leave it at this….these men who worked behind closed doors to compromise the fan base here will have to live with that the rest of their lives. I would personally not want that on my conscience, I am willing to be forgiving, but I would like to hear some truth at some point in time from these fraudulent men.
March 18th, 2008 at 11:41 am
chuckles2000 Says:
March 18th, 2008 at 9:03 am
I find it comical that everyone is just coming to the realization that most of our team sucks and won’t be around in a few years. Umm…what did you expect?
Everyone? Nice sweeping generalization.
I expected the team to hire a competent coach (strike one), that could have players running actual plays that could result in the opportunity that something good could happen most of the time, even if they missed the shots the play produced, so that even when they go through the motions at this point in the season they could at least show some improvement in the kids understanding how to play the game (strike two); I expected that there would be at least one veteran leader to help the kids for the entire year (strike three).
I didn’t expect them to win, but nobody expects anybody to give up 168 points. Shocked by it, not really, expected that, no.
. . .
Yep…it’s discouraging when the team stops playing with effort. But that’s bound to happen a time or two with really bad, really young teams. IT takes time to rebuild in the NBA. The CBA forces that. Hopefully we fight for the playoffs the year after next. That’s my goal.
They got blown out by a lottery team, giving up 168 points, your goal for next year is foolish.
There will be a lot of turnover, no question. I have pointed this out a couple times, to a few people, go look at the roster of Payton’s rookie season, and how few of them were on the 1996 team.
http://www.basketballreference.com/teams/teamyear.htm?tm=SEA&lg=N&yr=1990
check out LaBron James rookie roster (Jelani Mccoy, ha!)
http://www.basketballreference.com/teams/teamyear.htm?tm=CLE&lg=N&yr=2003
March 18th, 2008 at 11:50 am
“Collison = Horace Grant.
Not a guy who would be a top 3 offensive option onany team but an essential part of a successful club. ”
Except Ho-Grant actually was the third option in Bulls Dynasty I.
March 18th, 2008 at 11:53 am
Sonicsman Says:
March 18th, 2008 at 9:21 am
Tough to say what the culture of this team would be with new local ownership. A new group may want a new coach and new GM and 11 new players to go along with Durant. It is hard to say. So many questions. Right now I don’t think the potential new owners are thinking of the makeup of the team, right now it is just about saving this team from OKC. The team will be what the team will be until the whole arena situation is solved. Hopefully this summer it will all be resolved but it could go into 2010 before we know what is really happening which would lead to two very bad seasons. Clay will not build this team to win in Seattle!!
I completely agree with Sonicsman’s points above, and I will go right ahead and be the one to freak everybody out for no good reason … Whitsett
Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha!
March 18th, 2008 at 12:07 pm
Steve Says:
March 18th, 2008 at 10:49 am
Collison = Horace Grant.
Hey, I didn’t know we would play this game, ok, I’m in.
Jeff Green = Orlando Woolridge
http://www.basketballreference.com/players/playerpage.htm?ilkid=WOOLROR01
A 6-9 guy that might be a PF (never really large enough to get there), might be a SF (never really have enough offense to justify it), has a variety of talents, a rotation guy but not a starter on a good team, drafted #6 by Chicago in 1981.
Okay, who is next?
March 18th, 2008 at 12:12 pm
I would say that if and when this new group took control of the team they clearly don’t want to be involved with the day to day operations of the team. I would expect a big name in the NBA be named President of Basketball Operations along with a GM below him which could still be Presti. I like the title below:
Gary Payton
President of Baskeball Operations
Seattle Supersonics
March 18th, 2008 at 12:14 pm
Not bad Mr. Baker however I would say he reminds me more of Danny Manning
http://www.basketballreference.com/players/playerpage.htm?ilkid=MANNIDA01
March 18th, 2008 at 12:20 pm
Sam Presti didn’t properly dismantle the roster this season, which has put the rebuilding process back one whole year. As it was, Presti’s comments about “culture” and “not skipping steps” ended up being nothing more than fluff spouted to appease the average fan. Whether the Seattle Supersonics stay in the Pacific Northwest or relocate to Oklahoma City, the ballclub will be in for a long, arduous climb back to respectability—much less the playoffs.
I like Nick Collison, but Horace Grant is a hundred times better than him. During Grant’s prime, he was the perfect third option on offense at power forward for a championship team. Collison, however, is the kind of guy who’ll ultimately be a 7th or 8th man later in his career for some team that’s a title contender. Jeff Green, by the way, will never match Orlando Woolridge’s offensive production at any point in his career. The reasoning behind Presti’s adoration toward a mediocre tweener in Green baffles me to this very day. I just don’t get it.
March 18th, 2008 at 12:25 pm
“Not bad Mr. Baker however I would say he reminds me more of Danny Manning” {Patton}
Danny Manning >>>>> Jeff Green.
If we’re going to compare Los Angeles Clippers from the late-’80s/early-’90s to Green, then Ken Norman is a more apt choice than Manning.
At any rate, though, I still think that Green will be a bust.
March 18th, 2008 at 12:25 pm
Gerald Green is a waste. He was overrated in high school, and has finally been exposed in the pros. I can’t believe he actually took off his shoes, signed them, and put them on the judges table at the NO dunk contest before losing to Howard. The judges were right in knocking his shoes off the table and onto the ground, and as far as I’m concerned. I sincerely hope that Presti doesn’t try to sign him.
I’m hoping for Derek Rose or OJ Mayo. I’d trade anyone not named Durant, Green, or Wilcox for a shot at either guard.
March 18th, 2008 at 12:25 pm
Not the same position or body type but both big wings. Compare Gerald Green career to Jeff Green and Gerald has 20% lower turnover rate per possession used, a higher efg% and TS%, higher 3pt% and FT%, higher assists, higher steal rate and a higher PER. Jeff has higher rebounding, doesn’t overshoot as much, higher blocks and lower foul rate.
Gerald in Minny had a +1 on/off in part from strong SG defender stats. In Boston he was a bit above average on D but weak on +/- (weaker than Jeff this season).
I might give Gerald a training camp offer depending on their own character judgment. If they had room, couldnt find better prospect and wanted to take a chance (some chances when you are down far is generally a good idea). Maybe, small chance maybe, he could be a cheap 10-20 minute SG. If he accept a role as a defender / spot up shooter / bailout option driver instead of proto-star.
But of course the main concern is getting improvement from Jeff Green.
March 18th, 2008 at 12:32 pm
Jeff Green is full of upside. Once he finds his niche, he’ll be good to go. Remember - like KD, Green doesn’t really have a competent veteran PF to guide him. Kurt Thomas would have been great mentoring for 1-2 years.
Note: I am no fan of Collison.
March 18th, 2008 at 12:37 pm
Wow. Stern really is in Clay’s back pocket on this. I would expect him to side with Clay for the most part, knowing their friendship and Stern’s role in this whole thing. But to call the Ballmer group a PR stunt? Wow. Stern might as well be Clay Bennett wearing a David Stern mask.
I am starting to wonder just how fair a shake we will get even if we are able to have an arena deal on the table for the BoG meeting. We all know that Stern has rigged the BoG council by putting Clay’s buddy from San Antonio on there. And odds are the other guys on there most likely were chosen due to their allegience to Stern.
There are days where I agree with the sentiment of this blog posting. In that everything is going to work it’s way out in the end. But every time I am smacked in the face with yet ANOTHER smart ass snide David Stern quote, I can’t help but feel that our best case scenario is a Cleveland Browns situation. At times I feel in my mind that Stern has already set his mind on that being the only way for Seattle to save basketball.
March 18th, 2008 at 12:40 pm
I would have said keep Gelabale for sure a few weeks ago but it is getting sketchy.
March 18th, 2008 at 12:50 pm
Gerald Green vs Gelabale career is pretty close on stats.
Gelly slight edge on shooting fouls and blocks but tied on rebounding and Gerald has edge on assists, turnovers, steals and PER.
I am not pushing Gerald not I think the comparisons have some value.
March 18th, 2008 at 12:55 pm
Gerald Green has disappointing stats and a background and reputation to match. Jeff Green and Gelabale have better reputations and Green a better background too so they may deserve more willingness to believe in growth the right way but the stats have to come up to reward that trust at some point. 2 years is still short. Presti probably retains Gelly. Green will get year 2 and 3 before there is enough of a case to call him good, average or less and likewise Presti’s big play for him.
March 18th, 2008 at 1:03 pm
I might give Gerald a training camp offer depending on their own character judgment.
I wouldn’t give Gerald Green anything. Waste of a roster spot. Reports are, a box of rocks has a higher B-ball IQ than Gerald Green. I’d be looking to acquire players who know how to play the game.
March 18th, 2008 at 1:05 pm
EJ Says:
But to call the Ballmer group a PR stunt?
Stern didn’t mention the Ballmer group, he was refering to the Mayor. Frankly, this does seem to be a bit of a PR stunt. The City presented a plan for a group that doesn’t own a team and there isn’t a team for sale. Even if the City figures out a way to fund $150M, what good will it do when the BOG will be voting on what OKC has offered Bennett compared to what Seattle has offered him?
I can’t help but feel that our best case scenario is a Cleveland Browns situation. At times I feel in my mind that Stern has already set his mind on that being the only way for Seattle to save basketball.
Agreed. The benefit of the Mayor’s plan will be having a funding mechanism in place for an arena upgrade should the potential ownership group land a team in the future. He’ll have to give Bennett his buyout though if he wants to preserve the team name & history. If the lawsuit goes to trial, that chance is over, imo.
March 18th, 2008 at 1:12 pm
Dick Tate:
The importance of the offer on the table is the BOG knows it can get a team to OKC. If Seattle’s offer is good, which it will be, they in no way want to lose this market unless they are force to. Don’t go by what you are hearing in seeing. Go by the facts of the NBA Business. If they vote for relocation if the city has the $300 million offer on the table believe me that will be a huge mistake. You think it is ugly now. That would just be the beginning.
March 18th, 2008 at 1:23 pm
I was mainly using Gerald Green as a comparison stick for our wings. I could find lot of guys I’d give a try before him so I probably shouldnt have said maybe invite to training camp.
March 18th, 2008 at 1:27 pm
This link is a couple weeks old but if you want to hear some of the most ignorant people in America talking listen to this..
http://search.everyzing.com/viewMedia.jsp?dedupe=1&col=en-all-public-ep&index=76&e=19282312&il=en&num=10&scol=pod&mc=en-all&start=70&q=derek&expand=true&match=query,channel&filter=1
March 18th, 2008 at 1:30 pm
“Dick Tate:
The importance of the offer on the table is the BOG knows it can get a team to OKC. If Seattle’s offer is good, which it will be, they in no way want to lose this market unless they are force to. Don’t go by what you are hearing in seeing. Go by the facts of the NBA Business. If they vote for relocation if the city has the $300 million offer on the table believe me that will be a huge mistake. You think it is ugly now. That would just be the beginning.”
Another fact: The BOG has never voted against relocation; never even close.
On the other hand, I don’t buy the NBAs threats about never coming back to Seattle if the lawsuit is pursued. My guess is they’re doing everything they know how to get this thing smoothed out before Stern gets a subpoena. I’m sure the league is shitting it’s proverbial pants just thinking ahead to what a PR pissing match this could become.
It’s one thing having misfits like Dolan or Shinn to embody a broken economic model, but when the role of supervillain is cast on the comish, then there’s real trouble for the L, IMO.
March 18th, 2008 at 1:37 pm
“Another fact: The BOG has never voted against relocation; never even close.”
Well, the NBA has never left a city after 41 years either…not even close. Moreover, I can’t think of any other occasion where a team has left when there was a new arena proposal and ownership group in place committed to making it work.
There will be a lot of “firsts” here, either way this goes down. Let’s not assume its over just yet.
March 18th, 2008 at 1:43 pm
Jeff Green comparisons based on rookie year:
Nocioni
K Thomas
Marcus Fizer
Warrick if you more than doubled playing time
March 18th, 2008 at 1:44 pm
“There will be a lot of “firsts” here, either way this goes down. Let’s not assume its over just yet.”
I aggree with all of that, but I think that pinning one’s hopes on the BOG vote is asking for a letdown. The interview on KJR with the Jazz owner was a wakeup call. He didn’t have a clue and he owns a team in the NW division. If the owners are going to be voting against their own, then they’ll need to be aware of what’s actually going on here. I don’t get the sense that many of them do.
March 18th, 2008 at 1:48 pm
“I don’t get the sense that many of them (are).”
March 18th, 2008 at 1:49 pm
These names found for the comparison by searching for 6-7 to 6-10 guys who had 7+ pts 4+ rebounds a game as rookies but a PER under 12 and shooting in same range as Green.
March 18th, 2008 at 1:50 pm
“He’ll have to give Bennett his buyout though if he wants to preserve the team name & history. If the lawsuit goes to trial, that chance is over, imo.”
That is what scares me. Keeping the name and colors is probably more important to me than keeping this current team. I think I could get over losing the team for a couple years. But to lose the “Sonics” and replace them with the whatever would be tough. And what scares me is that if Bennett doesn’t sell, I don’t see the city dropping their suit against him. Clay might not use the name Sonics in OKC, but if they sue him, he won’t be giving it back either.
March 18th, 2008 at 1:54 pm
So if we agree that Stern’s rigged BoG is almost certain to grant relocation regardless. And let’s just say for the sake of argument that the Ballmer plan is on the table with funding all set. What then? What do we do then? Continue the suit, or begin negotiations with Bennett for the team name & records and Stern for a new team?
March 18th, 2008 at 1:57 pm
Fizer improved in year 2 and 3 then faded out quickly. Nocioni hit peak in year 2 and slipped a bit since. Thomas didnt improve til year 3 but maintained for 5 years before crashing. It is not great company but Green will write his own story.
March 18th, 2008 at 2:01 pm
Stern has given no reason to expect expansion lately but maybe if he used this situation to raise the expansion price to $400-500 million he’d consider that worthwhile and tending to raise franchise values instead of diluting them.
March 18th, 2008 at 2:03 pm
Would Ballmer & Co. go $400-500 million for a expansion team that got to keep Sonics name & history as part of lawsuit settlment / lease buyout while Clay got current team, moved and renamed?
March 18th, 2008 at 2:03 pm
fizer had a knee injury
I picked Woolridge based on where they were picked, the body style, the expectation if maybe being a pf, on their hands, and watching them play.
March 18th, 2008 at 2:10 pm
What do we do then? Continue the suit, or begin negotiations with Bennett for the team name & records and Stern for a new team?
The answer is both. As with any legal proceeding, the plaintiffs keep the lawsuit alive while listening to defendants’ settlement offers. As the City builds more strength, more concessions will be offered. When the right offer is made, it will be accepted. And I think the offer everyone hopes is a forced sale.
March 18th, 2008 at 2:12 pm
Well put, chncasper.
March 18th, 2008 at 2:29 pm
I understand your different than mine selection process Mr. Baker. If Green had Woolridge like stats the pick would be a big success. I don’t think he will get that big as a scorer. He might do better as a rebounder. Probably similar as a shooter and passer.
March 18th, 2008 at 2:33 pm
yes, very well put.
It was a couple years past the Pilots leaving that MLB exchange a franchise for dropping the suit against them. I do not want to get to that point, but if that is what it takes then so be it.
400 mil for an expansion team is cheaper than buying a team and the re-lo cost. That is what I thought Bennett would have ended up doing, trading down in cost of ownership when moving to a smaller market, but maybe not, not if he has to wait. His lease with OKC requires a team in there in 2010.
March 18th, 2008 at 2:38 pm
Woolridge was a good scorer, they score in a similar way and Woolridge played in the 1980’s.
Wasn’t everybody a better scorer?
March 18th, 2008 at 2:45 pm
MR. Baker,
For playoff contention I specified the year after next. So yes, I think next year is another one spent in lottery-land.
March 18th, 2008 at 2:50 pm
EJ Says:
“So if we agree that Stern’s rigged BoG is almost certain to grant relocation regardless. And let’s just say for the sake of argument that the Ballmer plan is on the table with funding all set. What then? What do we do then? Continue the suit, or begin negotiations with Bennett for the team name & records and Stern for a new team?”
If that scenario unfolds, you will see a 2nd lawsuit initiated by Slade Gorton on behalf of the City, the State, Ballmer’s Group, whomever - vs - Bennett, Stern, the NBA, and OKC in a bid to force a judge to order the league to offer the team to local buyers before relocating.
March 18th, 2008 at 2:52 pm
So then wouldn’t they just offer the team for $550m and say “hey we offered it for sale and they wouldn’t buy the team.
March 18th, 2008 at 3:07 pm
I’m sorry but Nick Collison is the best player we have.
It would break my heart to lose the Sonics but it would be just as bad if we lost Nick as far as I’m concerned.
March 18th, 2008 at 3:22 pm
after getting okc to vote to tax themselves, not likely, unless they had another team to hand them, but that much money would get you a better team.
March 18th, 2008 at 3:48 pm
“If that scenario unfolds, you will see a 2nd lawsuit initiated by Slade Gorton on behalf of the City, the State, Ballmer’s Group, whomever - vs - Bennett, Stern, the NBA, and OKC in a bid to force a judge to order the league to offer the team to local buyers before relocating.”
What would be the basis of that suit? Seattle would be just another city with an arena, but without a team, like Kansas City and OKC are now. How can Seattle claim any “right” to force an NBA owner to sell a team to someone in Seattle? I’m not following that argument.
March 18th, 2008 at 4:02 pm
Got a card in the mail today from my Rep, Tom Campbell. Sounds to me that they accept that the Sonics are gone.
His response:
“Thank you for your hotline message this session regarding the Sonics financing proposal.
Majority Democrats control the floor action. Which means they decided to NOT address the Sonics issue. I am in the minority and do not have a say in what is brought before the body. But I do express my opinions on these and other issues to the Majority leaders.
The Speaker, Governor and Senate Majority Leader decide which issues we vote on. They elected to not deal with the latest proposal. I am sorry that we could not have a committee hearing on the proposal and have expressed that to the House leadership. I will continue to look for opportunities to resolve the loss of the team.”
Tom Campbell
State Rep
2nd Leg Dist
March 18th, 2008 at 4:31 pm
“What would be the basis of that suit? Seattle would be just another city with an arena, but without a team, like Kansas City and OKC are now.”
I think this could open the way for anti-trust issues. Most sports leagues have anti-trust exemptions from the government that have been effectively threatened in the past. I believe leaving a city after 41 years with a viable owner and stadium proposal would be against the “public interest” and could lead to a lengthy “discussion” on whether the exemption should be revoked. The NBA (and NFL and MLB) are mortally afraid of losing this exemption. I believe this should be considered by Washington’s national politicians (Senators and Reps) as a powerful hammer to “persuade” Stern and Bennett to sell.
March 18th, 2008 at 4:37 pm
There are multiple reasons for having an offer on the table. One of them is the court case. A principle tenant of Clay Bennetts complaint is that he has no reasonable options other than to seek release from the lease. If there is an offer to purchase that would make him whole, or an arena deal he could choose to participate in then that argument simply goes out the window. It is concievable, but not in any way expected that a judge could actually order him to take that option. Regardless having a finalized arena proposal dramatically improves the odds in court. They go from feeling like victory is “very likely” to “virtually assured”. this leverage they feel can be used to help broker a solution.
It really becomes in the leagues best interest to broker a solution. Ballmer, Stanton, and Sinegal are all more than your average billionaires. Ballmer and Sinegal represent big time established brand names that would be big time additions for the league.
I love Nick. Thats why he’s the best example I can come up with. Great guy, great attitude, he personally would probably benefit greatly from a change of circumstances. He would never say it, probably never even thinks it, but in the end all this losing takes a cumulative toll on people. Just look at these teams that rebuild. How many of the players from the bottom remain on the roster by the time they’ve clawed their way back to the top? Not many.
I continue to hear that they are dead set against expansion. Frankly I don’t get it.
March 18th, 2008 at 4:45 pm
On Stern & the BOG Vote and the potential move etc.
Stern is posturing - being an arrogant idiot.
I realize the BOG has never voted against a move request - but I think this one is different. If Ballmer & Nichols have a proposal to re-model the KEY for 300 million into a top level arena alongside this incredibly impressive local owners group - I think you will see Stern recomend a “NO” vote on this or even get Clay to Withdraw his request & then sell to Ballmer. He’s playing tough guy in this interview now simply to push Seattle to get the arena deal done if he wants that, or to try to discourage Seattle if he does not want that and/or to prepare everyone for a move if they can’t get it done. In a weird way his comments make sense whatever his agenda is.
Previous moves have more often involved franchises that are really struggling to survive in a smaller/medium size markets with less track record than 41 years of established business in a huge & strategic market like Seattle. (EX: Vancouver moves to Memphis)
If Nichols & Ballmer offer a new arena as outlined & Stern still supports Clay’s move request then the NBA Owners will have to actually think for themselves. IMO they would be idiots to approve the move - I don’t think they would - but maybe they are that dumb.
If that happens - the conflict goes to another level & phase with the Lease lawsuit the next big step. I think the NBA will get killed in the National PR department and Sonics fans on this web site need to be ready to do some major & creative work to get support from the national NBA fan base while Seattle lawyers go to work. I think this can happen through using other teams fan blogs. The internet & blog dynamic really changes everything in terms of communication abilities and options today.
But - Maybe Stern won’t care about national PR? Maybe he thinks he can give Seattle the middle finger and it will never come back to hurt him in trying to develop future relationships with other cities and gaining arena funding in other places in the future? Maybe he thinks the NBA is so strong they don’t care about the 12th largest market? Or maybe it is personal with him now - he hates Chopp & Nichols - and his objectivity on doing what is best for the short & long term interests of the league is clouded? (A good reason to fire him if I was an NBA owner) Maybe he just wants out of Seattle and is so in bed with Clay he will try for the OKC move no matter what?
This could become a big-time power struggle within the NBA ownership group. Stay tuned!
March 18th, 2008 at 4:52 pm
BR… Your post at 4:37 is on target IMO.
It is so obvioulsy in the Leagues best interests to do a deal with Ballmer & Seattle if the arena deal comes together would they sacrifice all the positives of that & risk all kinds of negatives - VERY BIG NEGATIVES and still push of the Sonics moving to OKC just to keep 1 guy - Clay B. happy?
I doubt it. And if Stern advocates that he has lost his objectivity and ought to be fired.
March 18th, 2008 at 5:41 pm
The main cost of expansion is cutting another team into national tv revenue. I think it would cost each team about $1 million a year. At $300 expansion fee each owner pockets $10 million now. Maybe that appeals or maybe it doesn’t. But splitting $400-500 million and getting $13-17 million each now I think could tip the balance in favor of expansion. It probably tends to build national tv ratings and lay the foundation for maintaining or increasing that money in the future.
But if expansion isn’t voluntarily created or can’t by forced in a negotiated settlement then a gap or loss altogether is more likely. Unless something happens in another market.
Different take:
Looking at size of tv markets and pro team presence only 3 markets bigger than Seattle do not have 4 teams and all have 3 teams. On top 22 markets all but 2 have 3 pro teams. Orlando and Sacramento just have one. In markets smaller than #18 Denver the NBA only shares with one other major pro team in 2 cases and in 10 of 12 cases they share with none. It appears the NBA does not regard Seattle as a top tier must be in market and since it does not fit that modus operandi of being without competition or with minimal competition in smaller markets Stern is willing to give it up. Size of market may suggest rationale for Seattle but considering size and competition Stern’s take becomes easier to least see.
March 18th, 2008 at 5:49 pm
He did expand into Miami, Minnesota in the early 90s which are 4 team markets. Does he regret that? He went back into 2 team situation in Charlotte. On the other hand he bypassed 20 cities to go into Memphis and 25 to go into New Orleans- to be the one and only pro team. Maybe there isn’t an absolutely strict pattern but the lean is pretty strong towards wanting to be only pro team. Somewhat an admission of weakness.
March 18th, 2008 at 5:49 pm
The only change of scenery this team needs is that of new ownership. Imagine going to work not knowing where you’ll be stationed the following business cycle; the company is getting rid of all the mainstay employees, and the bosses are treating customers like sh*t. How motivated would YOU be? I get that they’re paid millions, but players are getting paid that on good teams also. A successful, well-run business will always have more motivated employees than the poorly-run one, even if the pay scale is same.
On Collison… don’t even go there. If you know basketball, and watch him play, you know he’s a smart baller. Contrary to some of the posts here, he’s actually quite athletic (has very good and quick hops, and descent quickness). To boot, he’s one of the players that has on several occasions said he wants to stay in Seattle (bonus points!). Anymore, most of his time is spent at the 5 where he’s undersized (shorter than Durant actually) resulting in problems. My only beef with Nick is his lack of strength (height deficiency doesn’t excuse getting pushed around some). He’d be a reliable 20/10 guy if he committed more to weight training.
Peace, and keep the hope alive SEATTLE!!!!!
March 18th, 2008 at 5:50 pm
The anti-trust issue is a non-starter. Charlotte NC thought of that when George Shinn moved the Hornets. Anti-trust litigation can only be initiated by the U.S. Justice department. Not likely. Congress most likely need to refer the issue to the Justice Department for further investigation after hearings are held in DC.
The NBA also looked into ways of forcing a team owner to sell. This is also part of the George Shinn problem. After much debate amongst the owners and opiions from various legal experts, it was concluded that the NBA could not force an owner to sell.
This leaves only one viable solution. Make sure the NBA BOG votes agaisnt relocation. Frankly, the whole BOG is not the issue. The NBA BOG is sud-divided inot four standing committees. The most important of these is the Financial Advisory Committee which is currently chaired by Mickey Arinson the owner of the Heat. Nothing is accomplished in the league without the approval of the Financial Advisory Committee. The Relocation is an ad hoc committee made up only when an application is received. They have very little actual power. The Financial Advisory Committee will need to pass off any any proposal which hopes to keep the Sonics in Seattle.
Mr. Ballmer is the biggest name in the group and he has the most credibility nationally. He needs to be more vocal. Matt Griffin is a nice mouthpiece for the group as is Slade Gorton. But, if Steve Ballmer calls, his calls get answered immediately. Not the same for Sen. Gorton or Matt Griffin.
If Steve Ballmer calls Mickey Arinson and asks for an informal meeting to lay out the particulars of the proposal, it will be in the hands of the NBA Financial Advisory Committee. That is where the real power in the league resides. If they agree with the proposal, the other owners will follow suit.
March 18th, 2008 at 5:52 pm
New Orleans has the Saints. The Hornets aren’t the only team there. Not by a long shot.
And JJ, Stern doesn’t have any objectivity anymore. He lost that long ago when he first allowed the Seattle situation to get personal. He got his feelings hurt, hooked up his good friend Clay, and has been out for blood ever since. To expect him to change his tune now is asking WAY too much.
March 18th, 2008 at 5:54 pm
And I am all for trying to win over the BoG, be it through Ballmer or whoever. But I cannot get past the fact that the owner of the f’n San Antonio Spurs is on the relocation committee. It’s like playing a rigged game of cards. You’re screwed before you ever began playing.
March 18th, 2008 at 6:07 pm
said it before and ill say it again, they will NOT vote against a move because they are deeply stupid as a collective. i guarantee they only know what tweedle dee and tweedle dum have told them and that in the end is all they will be interested in. when was the last time the BOG made a sane/good decision???????
March 18th, 2008 at 6:08 pm
I made a mistake. New Orleans is one of the 3 not 2 markets smaller than #18 where NBA competes with another pro team.
Giving up #14 market by NBA would equate with NFL not in LA and NHL not in Houston so it isn’t unprecedented. They could not afford to do this often I don’t think. But Philly, Atlanta, Minny and Miami are other markets that might be like Seattle eventaully. Save them or lose them for less competititon? Time will tell. Can a “National” Basketball Association do this? Isolated transaction or the beginning of a long slide?
March 18th, 2008 at 6:25 pm
long slide i believe. i wouldnt be surprised in 5 years if more than a few of the current teams no longer exist. and i dont believe stern when he talks about euro expansion, i think it is more likely that teams will be relocated to europe. and hes already dropped the hint a month back that he expects the firsty euro owner in the not too distant future. i think he believes that re-shaping the league is the best way of fixing it and the owners will just play along.
March 18th, 2008 at 6:26 pm
New Orleans was a complicated or odd call of a market to go into. Really all three of the non large markets the NBA competes with another pro team are shaky right now- Charlotte, Indy and New Orleans.
No matter the short term improvement in prospects New Orleans probably faces the toughest challenge to stay an NBA city long term - by objective criteria of market size, competition and history.
Being in a major market with lots of competition may be tough but New Orleans is tougher and some of the small markets with no competition are tough too. Leaving a major market is pretty serious. Maybe more serious than Stern will admit to himself.
March 18th, 2008 at 6:27 pm
The Big Dipper said:
“What would be the basis of that suit? Seattle would be just another city with an arena, but without a team, like Kansas City and OKC are now. How can Seattle claim any “right” to force an NBA owner to sell a team to someone in Seattle? I’m not following that argument.”
I wasn’t assessing Gorton’s chances of winning such a suit - just that I believe that such an action would probably be the next step in the battle, assuming both the $300 million offer by Seattle and the Ballmer Group was rejected, and the BOG approved Bennett’s relocation bid.
The point is that I believe Gorton will do everything he can to keep the current team - even if it means getting down and dirty - rather than playing nice and hoping for another team later. But I could be projecting my own strategy on Slade…
The big elephant in the room is that the lawsuit will still be hanging there even after the Ballmer thing and the BOG vote are resolved. I think as long as the league decides to keep pushing Seattle, Gorton will keep pushing back.
March 18th, 2008 at 6:51 pm
lawsuits are the only thing that leagues fear. baltimore was on the outside looking in throughout the nfl’s expansion derby and afterwards. . . then, maryland hired john moag, a kind of chesapeake version of slade gorton (not a senator, but a hardnose of the extreme variety), and he dropped a couple of well-phrased remarks about ‘anti-trust violations,’ ‘legal options,’ ‘courtroom discovery,’ and — presto! — the browns were moved to baltimore, and replaced with an expansion team to be owned by art model’s banker (and former baltimore expansion candidate) al lerner. . .
point is, i think slade is doing exactly the right thing. stern wields and therefore understands and respects power. slade is showing the nba that seattle might be willing to kick up a fuss. the nba doesn’t want a fuss. just as the majors back in the early seventies, they might be willing to help that fuss go away, with a team.
that is how the game is played all across the nation, over and over. seattle would be no exception.
March 18th, 2008 at 6:56 pm
Microsoft buying Time Warner would be an interestingmove / shift of power. Hypothetically.
March 18th, 2008 at 7:18 pm
Arison is on the relocation committee
Thanks for the finer details.
Forcing Shinn to sell could not happen, Bennett can not be forced as well. The NBA allowed Shinn to move to better financial situation, but he has raced to the bottom, can not make money without public money from a public that can not give him enough of it, he also does not have the cash to buy his way out. At the very least he needs a partner, or just sell out.
Seattle has to provide a better long term situation for the NBA, they can deny a move based on that.
NO is a popular example, but that is not the only team out there.
March 18th, 2008 at 7:29 pm
If the City/Ballmer group manage to come up with the $300M package, what is the process of presenting to the BoG as a legitimate offer? Since the Ballmer group’s portion is contingent on purchasing a team first, would a formal $ offer on team purchase also be submitted to the BoG at the same time? The whole idea of this coming together without any interaction between the City/Ballmer group and Bennett sounds like an odd way of doing business. I don’t get it.
March 18th, 2008 at 7:41 pm
a difference between this situation and Shinn’s situation might involve the dumb argument by Bennett that he has a hardship, and this is in invitation for Seattle to challenge that point by looking at everybody’s books, and review his emails with the other owners of the Sonics and with Stern.
We all know that they play one city against another, writing that down and working together to fix the market might be a problem.
March 18th, 2008 at 7:48 pm
dick, they have made a blanket statement that they are willing to pay the market price for a team. I think they can use that in a generic way.
My understanding is that had somebody already look at the preliminary numbers to show that the whole offer would provide NBA level revenue.
March 18th, 2008 at 7:51 pm
Barkley is tearing us a new one on TNT>
He’s right too.
March 18th, 2008 at 7:53 pm
He;s right and also right about the Nuggets being wrong by jacking up 3’s up by 50.
March 18th, 2008 at 8:00 pm
First of all, the NBA does not have an anti-trust exemption. Only MLB has an anti-trust exemption. So the NBA can not lose what it does not have.
Secondly, isn’t this KeyArena remodel the same remodel the city offered Bennett, and Bennett turned down, with Stern agreeing with Bennett that a remodeled KeyArena would not solve the Sonic’s revenue problems? I think Stern is on record as saying a remodeled KeyArena would not work. So, I don’t see how Stern would present an argument to the BOG that Seattle is offering a viable arena solution, since this remodel has already been rejected by both Bennett and Stern. Or is this remodel plan significantly different from the one offered Bennett?
Lastly, the idea that the NBA is just desparate to have Ballmer as an owner is not necessarily true. I don’t think the NBA has exactly loved having Paul Allen as an owner. Paul Allen was one of about a half dozen owners who wrote the NBA a letter a few years ago asking for greater revenue sharing. Allen wants the richer teams to give revenue to the poorer teams. If Stern is convinced that a remodeled KeyArena will not provide sufficient revenues to make the Sonics profitable, he risks having the Ballmer group join Paul Allen, and other owners, in asking for greater revenue sharing, which a lot of owners do not want.
Do the Sonics really make a lot of money from local tv and radio deals? That would seem to me to be the only advantage of being a larger market than OKC. What sort of deals do the Sonics have for local media? Top 10 in the league? Middle ten? or Bottom ten?
March 18th, 2008 at 8:13 pm
Whatever Okie.
This deal is nowhere near the same as what Bennett refused to listen to. Bennett never even allowed it to get to the point where he was presented with a plan. He said he was dead set against anything on the Key Arena site. He said that, because he knew it would be the best option and hurt his fight to move.
March 18th, 2008 at 8:21 pm
“The whole idea of this coming together without any interaction between the City/Ballmer group and Bennett sounds like an odd way of doing business. I don’t get it.”
Ballmer and the city have already reached out to Clay about acquiring the Sonics and and he’s kept the stance that the team’s not for sale. If Ballmer and company get something worked out here, they’ll travel to NYC and say, ‘we have an arena, and we will pay fair market value to Mr. Bennett for the team. Do you really want to relocate when everything is set in Seattle?’
What the local group/city are trying to do is force Bennett to sell. There’s no way in hell Bennett sells unless the NBA makes it clear in April that they don’t want to lose Seattle and a stable ownership group, if a viable arena is on the table. That’s how I look at it. No one involved with this has come out and deliberately said this but that’s the plan. I don’t think they are interested in another franchise because no one knows when that’ll happen. I think the local owners would be ok with another team if it was a seamless transition but that’s not going to happen. I don’t think the Hornets or Grizzlies are going to be available to move anytime in the near future.
But, I have a strange feeling in my stomach that even if everything works out on our end with an arena deal, the league will some how try to bargain with Seattle and Ballmer’s group. I have a bad feeling that the league will try to tell the Seattle and the Ballmer’s to go ahead and renovate Key Arena and they will do their best to bring a team back to Seattle. So it’s basically, ‘we’re excited about your offer but we’re going to let Bennett move the team anyways and we’ll work with you to get the next available one’. At that point, Ballmer might tell them to F@#$ off and leave. I totally believe in the reasons why the league should stay here and I hope the owners understand that too. Though, part of me still thinks that they don’t want to let go of the leverage they have against cities. Also, they probably don’t want to set a precedent of forcing current owners to sell when they are unwilling because they fear it happening to them in the future.
March 18th, 2008 at 8:49 pm
The Big Dipper Says:
March 18th, 2008 at 8:00 pm
“First of all, the NBA does not have an anti-trust exemption. Only MLB has an anti-trust exemption. So the NBA can not lose what it does not have.”
Yes, but doesn’t the absence of an anti-trust exemption put them in greater jeopardy for an anti-trust suit?
March 18th, 2008 at 8:59 pm
big dipper, Bennett dismissed Key Arena out of hand because it would require him to pay part of the remodel, something he is not required to do in okc, something he would do to a point for a palace.
Ballmer paying 150 million kind of changes the equation, since Ballmer does not anticipate getting a financial return on that gift to the city.
This us the Howard Schiltz plan, only, Howard was only wanting to pay 18 million, and there was a practice facility and parking (the city sold that to Bill Gates). Add a practice facility and parking and a few other outer upgrades to the public portion and you end up at 300 mil.
March 18th, 2008 at 9:02 pm
big dipper, Bennett dismissed Key Arena out of hand because it would require him to pay part of the remodel, something he is not required to do in okc, something he would do to a point for a palace.
Ballmer paying 150 million kind of changes the equation, since Ballmer does not anticipate getting a financial return on that gift to the city.
This us the Howard Schiltz plan, only, Howard was only wanting to pay 18 million, and there was a practice facility and parking (the city sold that to Bill Gates). Add a practice facility and parking and a few other outer upgrades to the public portion and you end up at 300 mil.
March 18th, 2008 at 9:04 pm
Stern supported essentially same Key remodel in 2005 and 2006, once personally. If Stern opposes now it is changing tune to fit Bennett’s preference / strategy.
One brief reference I see suggests Sonics local TV deal is slightly below league average.
March 18th, 2008 at 9:16 pm
dmason, the other benefit of presenting a counter offer is that you get your offer evaluated and presented to the rest of the owners, including those that want to sell at today’s market price. You really don’t have to ask pretty please to have your situation shown to be not only a better option than OKC, but to a few more markets where teams may be for sale.
March 18th, 2008 at 9:35 pm
ej”s last post is right on.
March 18th, 2008 at 9:43 pm
I see your point Mr. Baker. I’m trying to think about owners interested in selling and Grizzlies come to mind first; possibly the Kings and Bucks too. Maybe the Pacers owner is willing to sell considering the disaster there (moving a team from Indiana would be as big a travesty as moving a team from Seattle- it feels so wrong speculating about other teams moving but it’s part of the NBA. It’s reasons like these that make me wonder why I still watch)
In any possible move, Ballmer and company would have to deal with the lease any team has with it’s city. As Bennett has proved, that can be a big headache and I think they would much rather avoid it. I think the Kings are the only team with a lease that expires soon (IMO, NO is going to stick around till 2014 because they finally realized that they have an awesome team to watch and root for). Plus, it’s no fun being a villain.
March 18th, 2008 at 9:53 pm
dmason24, the pacers are for sale according to a few scattered articles i have read, the owner has had enough. the kings are 50/50 as are the bucks. memphis is up for sale, the hornets are not anymore. they are the only teams that are for sale or could be soon that i am aware of if that helps.
March 18th, 2008 at 9:56 pm
Ballmer, Stenton, Senagal, and Griffin have stated they are busy guys and they have other things to attend to. I don’t see this group pulling a ‘Bennett’ and looking to find a team elsewhere to pry away and bring to Seattle. It requires a lot of time and effort and these guys are not willing to spend that energy. Bennett is doing what he’s doing because he’s excited about being the local hero that brought a big league team to his town. He’s willing to expend all the energy needed to do that.
This brings us back to the point of why we need everything figured out now. Our best chance is now and with this team, IMO. I honestly believe this dream team of owners are not going to be around in the future to give that aforementioned effort to bring a team to Seattle. If the league wants to somehow provide a substitute team for the Sonics for Ballmer and company without them having to jump through all the hoops then I think they’d be ok with it. These guys are trying their best to help the city out by keeping it’s team with its history and also to keep the Seattle Center alive. I hope for all of us, things work out as they envision.
March 18th, 2008 at 9:57 pm
the ironic thing would be the Kings going to okc, I know, almost impossible.
You hold the team here until 2010 unless some other team pushes them out.
How many teams do they want moving?
March 18th, 2008 at 10:01 pm
noooooo they said they would not wait around for the plan to come together, if it were not ready before the bog meets then they were out, but once the plan was out there that it was good until… 2010
March 18th, 2008 at 10:24 pm
I didn’t think the local group was willing to wait around to get a team if the owners approve relocation. I was under the impression that if they failed keeping the Sonics or getting a guarantee of a replacement team, they would drop the NBA stuff and go on with their lives. Like I said, I honestly don’t think they are actively going to persue buying another franchise until they are sure that it will be an easy move. I don’t think this group is willing to take the crap Seattle gave Bennet from another city.
March 18th, 2008 at 10:54 pm
D.Mason says…NBA BOG might say to Ballmer…
So it’s basically, ‘we’re excited about your offer but we’re going to let Bennett move the team anyways and we’ll work with you to get the next available one’. At that point, Ballmer might tell them to F@#$ off and leave.”
If they try to tell ballmer this I think he would & should tell them forget it - and I frankly hope he would. I’d be ready to say to the NBA at that point - screw you to - goodbye forever.
March 18th, 2008 at 11:00 pm
“I frankly hope he would. I’d be ready to say to the NBA at that point - screw you to - goodbye forever.”
I’m with you there. If after all the effort everyone (city, local owners, fans) put into finding the solution (assuming it’s found) to keeping the team here, the league pulls off a stunt like that, then I’m done. The league can go to hell from that point.
March 18th, 2008 at 11:01 pm
EJ… I basically agree - I think stern has lost objectivity too. The ultimate test on this will be if Ballmer & Seattle make a great offer to the BOG & Stern still supports Clay’s move request. If that happens he is clearly puting the wishes on 1 man - Clay - ahead of many many other people and interests.
Some might say Stern is also looking out for the good people of OKC… but I would say their needs and voice shold be a way lower priority and if Stern wanted what was best for the league - he would simply tell them to wait a bit. If it comes to this and the both Stern & the NBA owners support clay’s move request instead of rejecting it and telling Clay he sould sell - they are complete idiots.
And this is where I respectfully disagree with tlk when I here you say the BOG will support Clay no matter what becasue they are idiots. Hey - time will tell & maybe you are right but i just cannot imajine they would be that dumb. I hope Ballmer & Co. can find the final 75 million to put everything back in their face and see what they do. It would be big-time drama for sure.
March 18th, 2008 at 11:09 pm
You know DMason… I ran into a friend this morning who is a serious sports fan - knowlegable & passionate - he buys a 6-pack of games/tickets every year - and watches many other - which is real good considering he has 3 kids under 7!
Anyway - he told me this morning basically this: “You know, I’m just about ready right now to say “Screw the NBA forever - I just don’t care anymore - tell them if they want cities to pay for their arena’s and then they deal with a city like Seattle the way they have to forget it. I just feel like I don’t even want to be a part of it anymore.” And then he said…. “If this Ballmer deal works I’ll probably stick with it - but if Stern & the NBA move this team - I’m out. I’m just done with the NBA. I can follow baseball & football but I would never support bringing in an expansion team or a transfer team like the Grizzlies. I could just never support a league like that again in any way”
Anyway - just one guys opinion - but that is mine too.
March 18th, 2008 at 11:16 pm
Crow… Your city comparisons are interesting. Who knows how Stern is evaluating the Seattle market and it’s importance to the NBA.
I think these 5 other factors about our market that are significant which makes me think Stern must see (but maybe not?) the value of Seattle is that our market is not only the 12th largest, but it….
1. Is an affluent market
2. It is a growing market
3. It is an established market - 41 years…
4. It is a market that if lost - would leave a huge black eye for the league and make building trust and relationships and getting funding in other cities more difficult.
5. Seattle is a geographically strategic market - a gateway to Asia & also balances the county a bit by giving Portland a close rival and to some extent Utah too. It keeps more league interest in the whole pacific northwest maybe even Vancouver a bit.
If Stern does not see or value this I hope other owners do.
March 18th, 2008 at 11:23 pm
It’s interesting to analyze whether we Sonics fans would ever support another franchise. I could list several arguments for both sides but it’s late and I rather not.
I feel the same way as your friend does. I feel like I’ve been jurked around by this league and wonder why I continue to watch. The answer is easy for me, I love this team despite how much they suck now. It might sound sappy but this is the team I grew up watching and as long as they’re here I’ll continue to support them.
If they leave and another team comes with the same name and logo I honestly don’t know how I’d react. I would like to know how Cleveland Brown fans reacted when they lost and got their team. They got an expansion team and I don’t think we’d get an expansion team because I don’t believe the league can expand with all the failing franchises. I’d hate to be on the other end stealing another persons team. I just don’t want to think about it. That’s why I’m hoping that things work out and we can put it back in everyone’s faces, like you put it.
March 18th, 2008 at 11:33 pm
Here’s a question for ya Brian.
We know that Clay made his proposal/offer our side in the form of a pie-in-the-sky, guaranteed to fail “$500m + all profit, etc.” plan and he is using that rejection against us. “We offered to stay but they declined.”
Why doesn’t the city make a proposal to Clay? Offer him a buyout deal of “$500m + lost profit + paid in full Key + Sonics history”. If he takes it then great but he won’t. Then we can use that rejection against him. “We offered to let him buyout but he declined.”
Have you heard of anything like that being thrown around? Just a tool to show the courts 2 can play at that game.
March 18th, 2008 at 11:44 pm
hey jj i hope im wrong on the owners too, i really do, but my gut just says otherwise. and im in the group who is gonna drop the nba if the sonics are moved. as a loyal fan i just hate the way ive been treated.
March 19th, 2008 at 12:12 am
Went to the season ticket holder party tonight. Had a few observations.
1) Conspiracy theorists unite! While standing in line for Durants autograph there were TVs everywhere showing the Oklahoma St. game.
2) They had a photographer at center court who was high up on a ladder. You could go get your picture taken standing on the Seattle Supersonics half court logo. I’ve been to these parties for 15 years. This is the first time they did this that I remember. Letting people have a last Seattle momento?
3) PJ seems to be a really nice guy. Not sure if it was fake or not but it didn’t feel like it. His 2 year old was with him and we talked about our kids for a few minutes and he was quick to sign anything, or run to center court to take pics with people on the logo, or say “thanks for your support”. I held my tongue on several things but told him it looks like my support was not enough.
4) The players seemed a lot friendlier this time around. Most of the time they stare off, only spoke when spoken to, etc. This time I saw real interaction from Ridnour, Durant, Marshall, Collison, Petro, Swift, Watson sorta, Sene. Luke was the coolest of them all with Petro and Swift next. Wilcox was there. Never saw the other guys.
5) FYI, talked to the season ticket big chief. Asked her when they were going to start asking for renewals. She said they were still talking it over but it appears they will wait until after the court case and then do a quick renewal process if they are staying. They are preparing as if they are staying. Told her I would most likely go away after 15 years because I can’t support her boss. She understood but said they are hoping it will work out and said they are all up and down like the fans are. Then I asked if the season ticket roster went with the history in the event of a new team. She said she has been trying to find out but nobody can answer that for her. She told them they need to get an answer before renewals because everyone will be asking. That’s it.
BTW… my once in a lifetime chance to get a picture with Durant and the dude in line who took the picture for me shot into the light so it looks like Kevin and I (what parts you can see) are in heaven. Bummer.
March 19th, 2008 at 12:21 am
tlk, I’m completely with you. I think the owners are going to stick up for their man because of the combination of loyalty and ignorance. IF the move does go through and we don’t have a team rewarded to us immediately that is called the Sonics with all our history etc then I am done. David Stern has been so anti-Seattle, pro-Clay/OKC lately that I would have a very small desire to be a part of it until he is gone.
March 19th, 2008 at 12:36 am
Eric E. & TLK…. You are not alone in your theory the owners will back Clay’s move request no matter what. We’ll see - who knows what weird agenda Stern has. I just can’t see it if Ballmer & Seattle step up but maybe the NBA owners are really dumb enough toblow them off is such a scenario - I don’t think so - but who knows.
Again…. If that happens I’m done with the NBA - period - forever - completely.
March 19th, 2008 at 1:16 am
I think that as long as this lawsuit lives, and if Stern is pot-committed to OKC, that he will abdicate his throne in New York. A new commissioner will be much more reasonable and broker a franchise swap or guarantee Seattle a new team. At this stage, Mr Stern is proving himself to be even worse than Bud Selig during the dark ages of baseball aka mid-90’s.
March 19th, 2008 at 1:54 am
But should everything fail and there be an attempt to bring a new team here, I hope the people who have gotten sour on this list will not be obstructionist.
March 19th, 2008 at 7:46 am
I know everybody is putting a lot into the vote of the BOG, but what is stopping stern and clay for already campaigning to the other owners? I am hoping that the April BOG vote isnt just a formality. I mean clay and stern are such buddies i can see them both putting pressure on the owners to approve this sale, regardless of how much they dont deserve it.
March 19th, 2008 at 8:33 am
Everyone is assuming the BOG will vote next month. I think that’s is still probable, and the vote will be to relocate the Sonics to OKC. However, the optimistic and maybe more realistic hope for Seattle is that the BOG tables the request (or even Bennett asks to postpone the vote). That could happen for a number of reasons (or cover stories): the pending lawsuit and its uncertain implications, the date is too late for a move to OKC this fall anyway, the politics and possibilities in Seattle are changing. If the NBA owners are serious about getting Ballmer and company inside their clubhouse, they will make some sort of short-term move like that to keep all the balls in the air.
If the NBA tells Ballmer to wait for the next team and says the Sonics are headed to OKC ASAP (which is exactly what we all fear at this point), then he should tell them to stick it. We’re done, adios…
(Other than the lawsuit, and making the miserable jerk bleed on the ground in Seattle for two more years. He bought the team. He knew the terms. Or didn’t your lawyer explain the performance requirements in the lease to you, Clay? Too bad…)
March 19th, 2008 at 9:22 am
If we have a financing plan in place and the NBA owners / Stern say thanks but no thanks, I say go on with the lawsuit, expose everything horrific about the NBA that it has lied about over the years in court, fans don’t attend a game for two years, and make Bennett bleed for two more years.
At that point I would be done with the NBA forever and it would be worth it to have Stern / NBA live with a horrific situation and PR nightmare for 2 years.
March 19th, 2008 at 9:27 am
Bennett, is making the fans bleed by putting a miserable product on the floor. I don’t have a problem with making him bleed cash for two more years, especially after the way this has played out.
There is now a real chance of an arena deal that is better than was offered to Schultz. For the NBA to pass on this and the local ownership group would be a stupid choice. Unfortunately, it has become personal, so anything can happen. One thing is certain, neither the fans nor the politicians will support a new arena once the NBA leaves. So, if the NBA wants to be in the Seattle market during my lifetime, they had better hang in there with the Seattle fans and allow the political process to play out over the next year.
If they vote for a relocation in April, the NBA will kill all hope and support. The relocation vote would allow the Olympia politicians off the hook on their non binding letter of intent. No arena will be built on the non binding NBA promise that the city may receive another team. The politicians would have been extended political cover by the NBA to not fund the remodel. Opponents of sports subsidies would have been handed a great example of why taxpayers should never subsidize sports. No lease committment will ever be secure enough to ensure an owner does not buy his way out. Given how difficult the politics in the NW are, no new basketball arena will ever be built. This is the issue that David Stern and the BOG need to seriously consider when they make their choice.
March 19th, 2008 at 1:51 pm
Patches says…
“One thing is certain, neither the fans nor the politicians will support a new arena once the NBA leaves”
this of course is speculation on the future - but I do agree with this. If the NBA were to leave is such a scenario I think the wounds would run very deep for at lease a few decades - a generation.
March 19th, 2008 at 4:36 pm
Agreed JJ, the only way I see the wounds being healed faster would be when Stern steps down and the new commissioner comes to Seattle and apologizes for the poor treatment towards Seattle and offers us a team.
Other than that the NBA will probably be waiting at LEAST 10 years until Seattle became interested again. Of course by then the T Wolves will be Louisville, Kentucky, the Bucks will be Albuquerque, New Mexico, the Cavaliers will be in Roanoke, Virginia, the Pistons will be in Little Rock, Arkansas and the 76ers will be in Birmingham, Alabama….
March 20th, 2008 at 8:37 am
the bog will do what stern wants them to do. the league is an ownership self-protection racket. but the league — meaning the commish and its owners — is also greedy. they won’t want to leave seattle money on the table. the formula for success is to make it more trouble and less profitable to leave seattle than to satisfy seattle. i think slade understands that, and ballmer probably does to.
money heals all wounds in the nba and pro sports. even feuds are set aside if the green is long enough.
i predict, in the end, okc will have some team (certain), seattle will have its team (hope), and some other city will play the jilted role.
i don’t need seattle to be pure. i just want seattle to have the supersonics.
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