11/08 Box Score: Sonics 74 Spurs 95
Posted on Friday, April 11th, 2008 at 8:42 pm by Big Chris
Woo hoo! With Minnesota’s win (and our loss), we are basically assured of the 2nd worst record for the season!
Kevin Durant led the Sonics in scoring tonight with 20 points on 9 of 19 shooting (6 rebounds too!). Earl Watson added 17 points on 8 of 14 shooting. Nick Collison had 14 rebounds. Johan Petro and Jeff Green both added 10 points apiece.
(18-62)
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(54-25)
| Seattle | |||||||||||||||
| Starters | Min | FG | 3Pt | FT | +/- | Off | Reb | Ast | TO | Stl | BS | BA | PF | Pts | |
| G | 37:05 | 8-14 | 0-0 | 1-2 | -18 | 0 | 3 | 3 | 2 | 2 | 1 | 0 | 2 | 17 | |
| K. Durant | G | 34:40 | 9-19 | 0-0 | 2-3 | -18 | 2 | 6 | 3 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 20 |
| F. Elson | C | 19:20 | 1-3 | 0-0 | 0-0 | -16 | 0 | 4 | 0 | 3 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 4 | 2 |
| N. Collison | F | 35:58 | 4-11 | 0-0 | 0-1 | -1 | 3 | 14 | 1 | 2 | 1 | 0 | 3 | 2 | 8 |
| J. Green | F | 30:13 | 4-11 | 0-1 | 2-2 | -18 | 0 | 2 | 1 | 3 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 2 | 10 |
| Bench | Min | FG | 3Pt | FT | +/- | Off | Reb | Ast | TO | Stl | BS | BA | PF | Pts | |
| J. Petro | 27:19 | 3-8 | 0-0 | 4-6 | -11 | 0 | 7 | 0 | 2 | 2 | 1 | 1 | 3 | 10 | |
| L. Ridnour | 26:16 | 2-9 | 0-0 | 0-0 | -12 | 1 | 5 | 4 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 4 | 4 | |
| D. Wilkins | 19:59 | 1-6 | 1-1 | 0-0 | -9 | 0 | 2 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 3 | |
| R. Dupree | 4:34 | 0-1 | 0-0 | 0-0 | -1 | 0 | 3 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | |
| A. Griffin | 4:34 | 0-1 | 0-0 | 0-0 | -1 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | |
| D. Marshall | DNP - Coach’s Decision | ||||||||||||||
| C. Wilcox | DNP - Coach’s Decision | ||||||||||||||
| Totals | 32-83 | 1-2 | 9-14 | 6 | 46 | 13 | 13 | 8 | 4 | 7 | 19 | 74 | |||
| Percentages: | .386 | .500 | .643 | Team Rebounds: 3 |
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| San Antonio | |||||||||||||||
| Starters | Min | FG | 3Pt | FT | +/- | Off | Reb | Ast | TO | Stl | BS | BA | PF | Pts | |
| T. Parker | G | 29:19 | 10-18 | 0-1 | 0-0 | +20 | 0 | 3 | 7 | 5 | 2 | 0 | 3 | 0 | 20 |
| M. Finley | G | 28:09 | 6-14 | 1-5 | 1-1 | +11 | 0 | 4 | 1 | 2 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 14 |
| F. Oberto | C | 26:22 | 5-8 | 0-0 | 0-1 | +8 | 2 | 10 | 3 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 2 | 10 |
| B. Bowen | F | 25:41 | 2-3 | 0-1 | 0-0 | +18 | 0 | 6 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 2 | 4 |
| T. Duncan | F | 24:19 | 4-12 | 0-0 | 4-8 | +11 | 1 | 6 | 2 | 0 | 0 | 4 | 0 | 1 | 12 |
| Bench | Min | FG | 3Pt | FT | +/- | Off | Reb | Ast | TO | Stl | BS | BA | PF | Pts | |
| I. Udoka | 27:20 | 5-9 | 3-4 | 0-0 | +5 | 1 | 6 | 3 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 2 | 13 | |
| K. Thomas | 22:21 | 3-7 | 0-0 | 0-0 | +3 | 0 | 5 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 6 | |
| M. Bonner | 19:12 | 2-6 | 0-4 | 1-2 | +13 | 2 | 10 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 5 | |
| J. Vaughn | 17:53 | 2-4 | 0-1 | 3-3 | +7 | 0 | 1 | 6 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 7 | |
| D. Stoudamire | 13:30 | 1-6 | 0-2 | 0-0 | +7 | 1 | 2 | 2 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 2 | |
| D. Johnson | 5:53 | 1-2 | 0-1 | 0-0 | +2 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 2 | |
| M. Ginobili | DNP - Coach’s Decision | ||||||||||||||
| Totals | 41-89 | 4-19 | 9-15 | 7 | 53 | 26 | 11 | 4 | 7 | 4 | 10 | 95 | |||
| Percentages: | .461 | .211 | .600 | Team Rebounds: 8 |
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| Game Info | |
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Technical Fouls: None |
Arena: AT&T Center, San Antonio, TX
Attendance: 18,797 |
Legend
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April 11th, 2008 at 8:57 pm
I wonder which team Clay rooted for?
The big league club or their triple A farm team?
April 11th, 2008 at 9:07 pm
Its interesting how both minnesota and memphis both picked it up at the end of the year.
April 11th, 2008 at 9:56 pm
sonics had no business beating Denver, they picked it up for a game. I think that as you get near the end you see players pushing everything to the side, even the coach, and just playing basketball, knowing that the end of the season is coming and you are not going to get to play beyond next week, not for several months.
It has to weigh you down as a player, the management actively messing with the roster and the line ups, trying to move, stupid people doing stupid things the wrong way for selfish reasons, messing around and wasting a year in the career of guys that know how finite the NBA life is.
The silence of so many players on this is sad, in private they have to be very unhappy. A little support for the fans in Seattle would have been nice.
April 11th, 2008 at 10:06 pm
Sonics had a good stretch in Dec. and Feb.:
A 7-6 and a 6-4 run. Outside that they are 5-52.
During those good periods they had Thomas & Wally S. and that helped give them their best defense (and / or their opponents just went cold on shooting) and best team 3 pt shooting. No defense and no 3 pt shooting since = very few wins.
April 11th, 2008 at 10:10 pm
Unless Presti brings in quality defensive players and 3 pt shooters the record next season will likely be as bad or perhaps even worse.
Coaching isn’t that likely to improve and personally I am not expecting big year to year rookie or other “young” player improvement.
April 11th, 2008 at 10:13 pm
Presti created his sinkhole intentionally. Lets see when and if he can dig his way out. I’m guessing not before year 4 or 5 at earliest.
April 11th, 2008 at 10:29 pm
Maybe Jeff Green makes big move between year 1 and year 2. He better. This season, given more opportunity than all but a very few rookies he is about 20th on shooting and scoring efficiency, assists, turnovers, rebounds and PER. With weak defense. In a weak draft class.
Presti’s Boston trade yielded a coveted by him but questionable wisdom #5 pick slot and the selection of Green. Green’s rookie production ranks as 7th weakest of last 50 top 5 picks.
April 11th, 2008 at 10:31 pm
on PER as a shorthand summary
April 11th, 2008 at 10:48 pm
Kinda wish Allen and Lewis could’ve tried for it all with Durant, but Presti and his complete roster renovation has paved a long road for potential growth. The bad intentions of these lame duck owners screams foul and a timeout is needed to calm down.
April 11th, 2008 at 11:01 pm
Just to irritate some of you, but you all need to celebrate Earl Watson’s last three months. In Febuary, March, and April, he averaged 13.8 ppg and 7.1 assists, while shooting 49.6% FG, 37% from 3, and 80% FT. Some of you still think he’s terrible, but those numbers don’t lie. He played well for a horrible team. He never quit.
Collison was also a model of effort. And Durant and Green just might end up being an amazing duo.
April 11th, 2008 at 11:04 pm
I”m thinking next year, and how much that Ridnour-Watson pairing seemed to help us on O.
We could have Rose, Watson, Durant, Green, and LORD PLEASE LET THE SONICS GET LUCKY WITH A CENTER WITH THAT LOW FIRST ROUND PICK running up and down the court.
April 11th, 2008 at 11:09 pm
Durant has been the best #2 pick since GP and some scoring titles are likely.
Green is the most exciting and athletically gifted selection since Kemp…no disrespect to Lewis or Mason.
Watson and Wilcox seriously improved their open market value and demand for their services will be arranged.
April 12th, 2008 at 12:39 am
“Durant has been the best #2 pick since GP and some scoring titles are likely.
Green is the most exciting and athletically gifted selection since Kemp…no disrespect to Lewis or Mason.
Watson and Wilcox seriously improved their open market value and demand for their services will be arranged.” {phenom}
Athletically, Desmond Mason would blow Jeff Green out of the water. Also, Alonzo Mourning and Jason Kidd are better #2 selections — at least with regards to their respective primes — than Kevin Durant. A defensive-minded, tough center and an all-around stud point guard trump a high-scoring swingman every day of the week and, well, twice on Sundays.
April 12th, 2008 at 12:43 am
“Watson and Wilcox seriously improved their open market value and demand for their services will be arranged.” {phenom}
What the hell are you talking about here?
Dude, you’re posts NEVER make any sense to anyone.
April 12th, 2008 at 12:45 am
Dammit, I made a grammatical error in my last post.
That’s the problem with being a drunk, angry jackass.
April 12th, 2008 at 12:54 am
Please go and vote NO on the ESPN poll now to their Question “Should the NBA allow the Sonics to leave Seattle”. There’s only been 9,000 votes and it’s still a 50-50 tie. We need to get it to 60 or 70% NO votes and send a message to them.
Here’s the link:
http://sports.espn.go.com/chat/sportsnation/index
You can vote more than once if you hit your back button then just click the link again. I don’t know how soon they are closing the poll, but it could be real soon.
April 12th, 2008 at 3:43 am
I just voted. 9,036 so far.
How could it be 50%-%50? what is wrong with these people?
http://sports.espn.go.com/chat/sportsnation/index
April 12th, 2008 at 7:36 am
Funny piece by John McGrath about Clayton “Rhymes with Satan” Bennett and his e-mails in the Tacoma News Tribune.
http://www.thenewstribune.com/sports/sonics/story/332435.html
April 12th, 2008 at 7:40 am
“Presti’s Boston trade yielded a coveted by him but questionable wisdom #5 pick slot and the selection of Green. Green’s rookie production ranks as 7th weakest of last 50 top 5 picks.”–Crow
It’s easy to be a glass half empty guy with the season we’ve had, Crow. However, Green has shown marked improvement statistically since the All Star break. If the team somehow stays in town, I think Green will continue to grow on the fans.
April 12th, 2008 at 7:54 am
(Bennett) calling Stern “a person with a rare and unique charisma that brings out the best in everybody you touch.”–McGrath.
This really was a pukey line. I remember reading it yesterday too. Stern must be thrilled that those e-mails were published, exposing the Bennett-Stern lovefest. So, this is what big businessmen do when they aren’t eating sausage or stroking the media with some trite quote. Forget about Obama being charismatic when there are guys like Stern in the world! Give me a freakin’ break.
April 12th, 2008 at 8:00 am
I agree that the statistics do not cast a favorable light on Green. However, he has shown flashes (rarely sustained for longer than a game) of the player he can and will be. David Thorpe at ESPN.com, whose opinion I greatly value, predicts Green will be a top candidate for MIP next year.
April 12th, 2008 at 8:06 am
lester, I really don’t care about luke, but does the phrase “hollow numbers” ring any bells? No? Ever listen to David Locke rant about Chris Webber? No?
Earl will get his numbers no matter what. He has his business to take care of, and I have to wonder how his contract is structured. He would be a fine backup, but he is not going to win you very many games. If he can accept coming off the bench then great, he’s the winner of the Earl vs Luke battle.
Just as Green started so many games those year I would expect Rose to start even more next year.
Stat wise, he may be the best loser on the team.
The debate was ended by Rose, or one of the other top pg’s in the coming draft.
April 12th, 2008 at 8:16 am
We’all better get some signs out for KC tomorrow at the game.
April 12th, 2008 at 8:41 am
I’ve voted like 20 times and it still shows 50/50. How can that be?
Are the Okies doing the same?
April 12th, 2008 at 9:04 am
They probably leave it at 50-50 so it encourages folks to keep voting over and over and over…
You guys and your online polls
April 12th, 2008 at 9:08 am
I noticed the total vote count did not raise when I do the back button thingy. Stuck at 9208.
April 12th, 2008 at 9:14 am
Green gets more time of course but second half of season was only slightly better from an overall efficiency standpoint than his November start. It seems more dramatic because his minutes and shots increased and because after November he went down in Dec. and way way down in January and recovered since. Maybe it was just getting over the rookie wall.
March was his best shooting month but April is again close to his worst.
Wait n see next year. But unlike a lot of young players Green has already gotten his 2000+ minutes to show where he is at.
April 12th, 2008 at 9:39 am
If they keep Green at SF and Durant at SG objectively to balance the pairing you’d probably like him to be strong at passing / low at turnovers, high on FG% and good at 3pt shooting and good at defense. He came in with the prospect to be most of these things but so far he is not up to league average on any of these. He isn’t anything special as a rebounder for his position- just average or a little less. Will he get to truly strong on any? I am more knocking Presti’s pick than Green himself. But it could still work out if they find the right 3rd wing to mix in with Green and Durant or if he moves back to PF and focuses on rebounding, finishing and hopefully defense. Giving Green big and even bigger future responsibilities as a shooter, scorer and passer seems like a sketchy plan to me at this point.
April 12th, 2008 at 9:48 am
“Giving Green big and even bigger future responsibilities as a shooter, scorer and passer seems like a sketchy plan to me at this point.”–Crow
It’s too soon to tell IMO. If you judge every NBA player’s career by their rookie season, no plan would ever look good.
By the way, what was Gary Payton’s rookie efficiency rating? He turned out okay, didn’t he?
April 12th, 2008 at 9:50 am
PJ is still teaching, lol. Here’s a bit from today’s TNT recap:
Carlesimo went on to say losses like the Sonics suffered late in the season will help rookies Kevin Durant and Jeff Green mature as they work in the offseason to prepare for their second season in the league.
I’m glad PJ wasn’t one of my college profs. “That F I gave you is going to help you down the line, son.”
April 12th, 2008 at 10:08 am
Payton as a rookie was a 13.2 PER and a clearly an above average passer / defender from the start.
Green is a 9.5 PER and not league average at anything major yet.
The difference between a 13 PER and under 10 is typically the difference between being a 4-7th man and being barely in the rotation.
April 12th, 2008 at 10:14 am
Wilkins and Donyell Marshall in Seattle at PER 11s. Gelabale 10. 5. Petro PER10. Green 9.5. Adrian Griffin in Seattle 9.4.
April 12th, 2008 at 10:27 am
You can debate rookie stats all you want - Jeff Green will be a starter for this team for many years to come. So you think his stats are bad? Check out the numbers for all the other players who were available at #5. You still want Yi? Thornton? Brewer? Young? Who else?
More than anything, Green needs a new coach, a better system that properly utilizes his skillset, and some new teammates. His game will continue to develop and expand in the years to come.
April 12th, 2008 at 10:37 am
It is true most players improve meaningfully in year 2 or 3. Hopefully Green does and hopefully by more than average to get to PER 14-16 or better to give decent or good return on a 5th pick, salary and future salary expectations.
For a lot of rookies their low PER is influenced by low shot attempts from being low on the shot totem pole. Green has already had the advantage of pretty high shot attempts and his PER has been helped by that (too much so in the opinion of some). To get better he will have to get more accurate and more productive elsewhere.
April 12th, 2008 at 10:40 am
It’s easy to forget though Crow that Payton threw up a lot of bricks as a rookie, and a lot of fans had a rash reaction at the time and felt like drafting him was a mistake. Few observers could really see his promise from his rookie year. It’s easy to look back now and say, “I told you so.” But, I remember a quote from Kevin Johnson of the Suns that said something like this, “I think you will see a different Gary Payton next year. He has all the tools to be a great player in this league.” The fact that that quote was necessary showed that Payton’s rookie season was a disappointment…regardless of what his PER was.
I have to admit, I’m starting to think that the PER stat is a little bit bogus ever since Myk stated that Chris Paul’s rookie PER was the best ever and that when it’s all said and done Paul would be remembered as a better point guard than Magic Johnson.
In time, both Green and Durant will be fine. IMO a bigger problem is when the team has veterans who play like rookies. I’m more concerned about the efficiency and shot selection of guys who have been in the league for 3-6 years than the rookies. Some of our veterans actually seem to be getting worse instead of improving, and their NBA careers could over soon…
April 12th, 2008 at 10:43 am
In retrospect Noah would have been a good 5th pick. Given the talent available there acquiring the 5th pick was pretty questionable in my mind.
But it is done.
If Green isn’t a PER 13+ with at least average defense by year 3 he should face wide open competition to try to hold that spot.
April 12th, 2008 at 10:43 am
2 players who I’d enjoy drafting:
Derrick Rose
OJ Mayo
One player who would help us who we won’t draft:
Brook Lopez
April 12th, 2008 at 10:46 am
I’d take Green over Noah any day of the week.
April 12th, 2008 at 10:56 am
In line with what you said James B.:
Damien Wilkins was a PER 13 as undrafted rookie and stayed there til slipping back to PER 11 this season.
Petro started at 10 as a rookie, got close to 12 last season and is now back at 10.
Gelabale improved slightly but is still near 10.
Ridnour started at 13 got to 16 as is now at 12.
Collison started at 15 dipped to 14 last season and is back at 15.
Sonics coaching hasn’t got much recent track record of unlocking ability or improving it.
Does that change next year or the year after or the year after that?
No guarantee of advancement.
April 12th, 2008 at 10:58 am
Jeff Green has so much potential to be a Karl Malone/Scottie Pippen hybrid its not even funny.
Give the dude 5-6 years and he will be part of the reformation of power forward role, (along with Al Horford).
Green will be a star. Noah will just be a loud, mediocre Dennis Rodmanish player (on court) without the Worm’s numbers.
April 12th, 2008 at 11:04 am
http://a1135.g.akamai.net/f/1135/18227/1h/cchannel.download.akamai.com/18227/podcast/SEATTLE-WA/KJR-AM/2008-04-10%20Clay%20Bennett%20E-Mail.mp3?CPROG=PCAST&MARKET=SEATTLE-WA&NG_FORMAT=sports&SITE_ID=645&STATION_ID=KJR-AM&PCAST_AUTHOR=Elise_and_Ian&PCAST_CAT=Entertainment&PCAST_TITLE=Elise_and_Ian_OnDemand
need a smile? click on this.. narrated and with music. clays love letters to stern
April 12th, 2008 at 11:09 am
I wasn’t and am not a huge Noah backer / believer but…
among rookies 11th best shooter, 12th best scorer, 11th best passer, 25th on turnovers, 3rd best rebounder, 6th best PER, compared to Green at near 20 on all these.
Per minute Noah is thew 18th best offensive rebounder in the league as a rookie. 45th for overall rebounding. So on almost half the teams in the league he’d be team best offensive rebounder and on half the teams he’d be 2nd best rebounder period. That is worth something.
He has a +6 on/off and as the bigger part of that improves team defense by 5 pts. his 1 on 1 defense at center is above average and his PF is about average.
I’d take Noah over Green as of today. Green may have more upside but time will tell.
April 12th, 2008 at 11:23 am
Green has definitely shown enough flashes to justify the pick IMO, esp, as pointed out, when you look at the players taken below him, none of which would be a better long-term risk/benefit pick for the Sonics (Thornton is better now, but he’s older, and also more duplicative of Durant’s skill set). My only worry with Green is that he’s something of a tweener between the 3-4 spots, not sure he’s quick/dynamic enough to be the answer at SF, and not sure he’ll be strong enough to play at the 4. He’s not great at anything right now, but you can see he’s got a wide range of things he’s good at (or w/a bit of improvement will be).
Re next year, a step up at point guard could do wonders, if not immediately in ‘08-09, then certainly the next year. Rose is a dream pick for us — we’ve needed a big, athletic point since GP left, and when you look around the league, every team has either a dynamic PG or a SG like Kobe or McGrady who can basically act as the PG at the important points of the game.
I think Durant’s play this year, all things considered, has been at or above expectations, I fully expect him to be a consistent 25+ ppg guy over the next several years, and with his size/skill combo he’ll be a guy who can always get his shot off in game-deciding moments.
The other nice thing is that both of KD and Green appear to be good-attitude, non-off-court-problem guys, makes them easy to root for.
Just hope I get to continue to be of them both in Seattle.
April 12th, 2008 at 11:27 am
A Malone/Pippen hybrid would be great…
but wow
As a rookie he slots in as between Diaw and
K Thomas as a shooter, slightly better as a scorer. Clearly the weakest as a rebounder and passer. And overall 2nd on PER but far closer to the bottom Diaw than the top Thomas.
Diaw got to peak PER 17 in year 3 and has since slid to 12. Thomas got to PER 16 in year 3 and stayed near 15 most of the next 5 years before slipping badly recently.
Does Green get to PER 16+ by year 3? That would be pretty good. Does he hold it? Does he surpass K Thomas? I think that is 50/50 at best but I’ve expressed my caution enough.
Everyone has their own expectations.
April 12th, 2008 at 11:30 am
(To be clear that initial Green to Diaw and Thomas stat comparison was for all of them as rookies.)
April 12th, 2008 at 11:33 am
You need to keep in mind that Diaw was playing PG with Atlanta too. He wasn’t anything until he started playing the front line in PHX.
April 12th, 2008 at 11:42 am
Diaw’s slow start is more understandable in view of his good year but that good year is looking like an exception now.
Malone started as a PER 14 rookie and went to 18, 21, 24 and 27 in the following years, one of the biggest rises in modern era.
Pippen started at 13 went to 15, 16 then 21.
Each went even further later.
You can start modest and rise. But jumps of more than 5 on PER aren’t that common.
April 12th, 2008 at 11:47 am
Pre-draft I considered Noah a decent candidate at 5 but I knew I didnt know those guys well enough to say it with any force.
April 12th, 2008 at 11:53 am
Diaw got featured and took advantage of it for a year but is now a backup PF / 7th man on a very good team. Green will indeed probably be more prominent than that here on a very weak team but to what effect we will see.
April 12th, 2008 at 12:46 pm
Payton improved his PER by less than 4 by year 3 though ultimately by more than 10.
Kemp improved his PER by 5.5 by year 3 and ultimately by 7.5.
Schrempf improved his PER by 3 by year 3 but ultimately by 9.5.
Those are the big farily recent successes by great players.
But there is also the followeing data:
McKey improved his PER by 2 by year 3 and ultimately by just those 2.
If you ignored Lewis’ 145 minute rookie year he improved his PER by 2 by year 3 of really playing and ultimately by a total of 4.
Radmanovic improved his PER by 1.5 by year 3 and ultimately by just those 1.5.
Which group wil Green be in? It could fall in between. Up 6 to ultimately reach PER 16 might be my guess right now.
April 12th, 2008 at 12:53 pm
T-Wolves win last night - It look more & more like Sonics will have 2nd worst record - Let’s hope for some more ping-pong ball karma in May! Our position is good.
After watching the NCAA tourney I sure was impressed with D. Rose. Put him with KD & JG? YIKES!
April 12th, 2008 at 12:57 pm
I wanted Stucky at #5 but have seen flashes of Green to impress me. If we get a pg and a big then we have something to build on.
April 12th, 2008 at 1:01 pm
Near PER 16 forwards right now include Ryan Gomes, T Prince, G Hill, T Outlaw, Harrington, Granger. That would make you one of top 100 main rotation players.
Lewis is at 16.6. Deng and Odom near 17. Kirilenko 17.5. Turkoglu, G Wallace and Gay near 18.
Green could get to near 18. That would be top 60 in the league.
Josh Howard is near 19.
Good enough potential that he ultimately gets somewhere in that 16-19 range.
But at PER 15 we have Moon K Martin Blatche Turiaf M Williams D Wright. S Williams and Nocioni only rate near PER 14. Haslem this season at 13. I don’t know if it is certain he passes all them.
What Green attains will contribute fairly significantly toward what Sonics and Presti achieve in next half-decade and beyond.
April 12th, 2008 at 1:05 pm
One of top 100 main rotation players means you are probably 3rd or 4th best player on a good team or 2nd or 3rd best player on an average or weak team. Green could be one or the other.
April 12th, 2008 at 1:09 pm
Top 60 makes you a legit #2 guy though contenders have 2-3 in top 20-40.
Sonics have to get to .500 first then talk of contention can be entertained.
April 12th, 2008 at 1:12 pm
Durant currently #104 on PER list among guys with big minutes. Next season I assume he gets to at least 60-70. McGrady currently at 42. Durant might get close to him, which if he did in year 2 would be impressive.
April 12th, 2008 at 1:23 pm
Does anyone know when David Stern is going to speak out on all of this?
April 12th, 2008 at 1:27 pm
Probably not until the trial.
April 12th, 2008 at 1:29 pm
Right now, strategically, he doesn’t have to. He has an out on both ends. If this gets really bad, then he can say that he was lied to. If it doesn’t, he can still support the move. It’s in his best interest to bide his time for now.
April 12th, 2008 at 1:34 pm
First off, Jeff Green has shown some flashes of brilliance. Same with KD, guys like Noah and Brewer haven’t…nuff said. Bump the per, it is “minor league” among statistical analysis. Only those who are really into the “uber-sophistry” of armchair stat banter really care about it. In reality it means very little.
You are going to need a new coach…regardless….and a new atmosphere. Even Jordan would want out of a prolonged, purposeful tank job that ownership is at the moment successfully orchestrating.
I have to admit, I originally liked Rose, buying into the hype more so than anything I guess, then I as the season progressed I started to see things that I felt needed a second year in college to work on. However, the leagership and decision making I saw from Rose during the NCAA tourney(especially in the late rounds) has given me something to think about. Plus, while I can still see a “new school” offense with Beasley, Green, and Durant. It’s obvious that Kevin Durant has a knack for the lost art of the mid-range jumper and would be very much better off at the 3. So, in the end something is just feels better about getting Rose instead of Beasley. All in all, however, if Beasley decides to stay in school for one more year we have to get the first pick in order to get dibs on D-Rose.
April 12th, 2008 at 1:34 pm
First off, Jeff Green has shown some flashes of brilliance. Same with KD, guys like Noah and Brewer haven’t…nuff said. Bump the per, it is “minor league” among statistical analysis. Only those who are really into the “uber-sophistry” of armchair stat banter really care about it. In reality it means very little.
You are going to need a new coach…regardless….and a new atmosphere. Even Jordan would want out of a prolonged, purposeful tank job that ownership is at the moment successfully orchestrating.
I have to admit, I originally liked Rose, buying into the hype more so than anything I guess, then I as the season progressed I started to see things that I felt needed a second year in college to work on. However, the leagership and decision making I saw from Rose during the NCAA tourney(especially in the late rounds) has given me something to think about. Plus, while I can still see a “new school” offense with Beasley, Green, and Durant. It’s obvious that Kevin Durant has a knack for the lost art of the mid-range jumper and would be very much better off at the 3. So, in the end something is just feels better about getting Rose instead of Beasley. All in all, however, if Beasley decides to stay in school for one more year we have to get the first pick in order to get dibs on D-Rose.
April 12th, 2008 at 1:34 pm
So as we speak the Gov’s working hard on our thursday meeting to save the Sonics?
April 12th, 2008 at 2:09 pm
those 72 hours weren’t in a row
Kidding.
I think it is fair to say that the legal brief has shown a way to do what many thought impossible, keep the Sonics. It is one thing to hope that a team will be here some time in the future to make the state public investment dollars look meaningful, it is quite another thing to have a chance to actually keep more than the name and colors.
Nobody likes to be lied to, few lies provide a legal means to do something about it.
If it is possible, I think she can be a big help.
My guess is that there is a lot of phone action going on, and lawyers working the weekend.
I would think I would see something by Monday.
April 12th, 2008 at 2:28 pm
Stern’s image is really tarnished now, we’ll have to see what comes up.
April 12th, 2008 at 2:31 pm
Stern will dump his boyfriend Bennett and the Sonics will stay in Seattle im sure of it now. Any word on if Schultz is going to get back into this and then sell to the Ballmer group?
April 12th, 2008 at 2:32 pm
I doubt Stern is sweating this at all… he came out of the referee scandal with no problems, and that was waaaaaay higher profile than this.
April 12th, 2008 at 2:38 pm
I hope you’re right Baker and the phones are flying off the hook all over the place. My fear is that everyone is at home doing yardwork, shopping, BBQing, etc. and that the issue won’t cross their minds until bright and early Monday morning.
April 12th, 2008 at 2:51 pm
Schultz won’t even bat an eye about this. He has his hands full with a free falling company. Besides, he’s a snake.
I wish we could hear from Stanton and the other previous owners. I’d just like to know what they are considering or not.
April 12th, 2008 at 3:20 pm
I’ve agreed before that PER is a crude tool even deceptive at times (overemphaisizing shooting- something I specifically referenced as helping Green’s PER and under-emphasizing defense which if it was fairly included would make Green this season look even worse).
But very few players have a low PER and are actually good. It takes an unusual role and a perfect fit on a team to do that- like Bruce Bowen.
I was using it as a simple level tool to frame the issue on Gfreen’s performance and future. Disdain it all you want, that’s fine. I’ll use it some.
April 12th, 2008 at 3:34 pm
Green is not in a well- defined / well-managed / well-suited role that is a good fit for the team and that has seen extremely weak personal and team results so far- on average.
The optimism is that somehow that is going to all change fast and far. Maybe…
but I think the other side of the case has some merit too and I knock it out one last time this season.
April 12th, 2008 at 4:00 pm
Of the 14 guys I mentioned currently in the PER 16-19 range a couple were PER12s as rookies. So as I went to some effort to show with past Sonic players improvement happens and sometimes big improvement. Still Green’s 9.5 rookie PER doesn’t fit with that pattern.
Of the 9 guys I mentioned currently in the PER 13-15 a couple were PER1O or below as rookies. Green’s 9.5 fits better with that pattern …
but every player is different.
One more,
of the 113 players who entered league this decade 6-7 to 6-10 in height and played 500+ minutes as rookies where does Green’s PER rank? 97th of 113. This isn’t splitting hairs. This seems like a legit concern about efficiency of play to me.
April 12th, 2008 at 4:06 pm
But there is room to disagree, especially about the future.
April 12th, 2008 at 4:13 pm
Green rookie PER was close to Ron Dupree’s …
but Dupree’s was slightly better (in almost 1000 minutes).
The best rookie PER this decade for a guy 6-7 to 6-10 playing 500+ minutes? The guy Presti traded for a future 2nd and cash rather that take in the second round- Carl Landry.
Nice outcome. Not.
April 12th, 2008 at 4:26 pm
Hey, guys, if we don’t get the #1 or #2 picks, we are likely to draft Lopez. And even if we get the #2, but somebody else takes Rose #1, we’ll take Beasley. So we may not get Rose even if we have the #2.
And, by the way, I am so happy to be arguing about the draft because I feel so optimistic about the Sonics staying (ask me again in a few weeks how I feel)…
April 12th, 2008 at 4:28 pm
the vote was 2-3, then changed 3-2 to sell. Howard was one of the 2, I don’t know if they have to have 3, or just 1, but the Howard interest could be sold to Ballmer, and the other controlling vote sell vote to Griffin, Wally Walker could gain some cred by making this happen for Ballmer.
I do not know who the other controlling votes were, Hiward, Wally, Stanton, and two more.
I can’t imagine the flack somebody would get if they were the one not working on this right now, the fingerpointing, the enraged fans (that would be me).
April 12th, 2008 at 4:33 pm
I know I am on an extended rant but the numbers show Green better off the bench than starting, better in slow games than fast. Presti and PJ’s vision of playing fast with Green beside Durant in starting lineup just doesn’t make much sense to me. But we’ll see if it makes sense by mid-year 2 or end of year 3 or…
April 12th, 2008 at 4:34 pm
“Jeff Green has so much potential to be a Karl Malone/Scottie Pippen hybrid its not even funny.” {Clint}
LMFAO!
Dude, you’ve got to be kidding me.
Seriously, you’ve got to be kidding me.
Your comment, by the way, is actually “funny” stuff.
April 12th, 2008 at 4:38 pm
Jeff Green is Boris Diaw.
That skill set isn’t worthy of a top-five pick.
I said it before the 2007 NBA Draft and will keep saying it until the homers quit fellating Green, but trading Ray Allen for crap indicated that Sam Presti was either in full tank mode or out of his league as a front office executive.
April 12th, 2008 at 4:41 pm
Mr. Baker your post on the vote jars me to realize that with a reputed 40% interest Howard essentially had 2 of 5 votes himself. Stanton had a reputed 20% and that would be equal to one vote in 5. Wally had a reputed 10% and I assume he rallied his group members into a no vote making it 2-2. The remaining group was composed of the small investors- some mix of 1) Ackerly paidoff lawyers and dealmakers if they werent in Wally’s group, 2) Howard’s friends and 3) maybe some Wally and Stanton friends. It appears Howard had more friends in the deal (would make sense politically) or swayed more with the side letter or money ended up talking the loudest.
April 12th, 2008 at 4:43 pm
1. Beasley (Durant’s choice)
2. Rose (Dwayne Wade’s preference)
3. Lopez
4. Mayo
April 12th, 2008 at 4:43 pm
“I doubt Stern is sweating this at all… he came out of the referee scandal with no problems, and that was waaaaaay higher profile than this.” {SeeJ}
You’re exactly correct about that point.
April 12th, 2008 at 4:47 pm
“I was using it as a simple level tool to frame the issue on Gfreen’s performance and future. Disdain it all you want, that’s fine. I’ll use it some.” {Crow}
Finally, Crow is no longer using tact and implying that certain posters who are homers for Kevin Durant and Jeff Green are blinded by their idiocy. It took some time, but SonicsCentral’s resident statistician has quit pulling punches and is landing stinging uppercuts up the uninformed masses.
April 12th, 2008 at 4:49 pm
The next draft is a better subject than the past.
This appears to me to a draft requiring expertise.
I suspect that a lot of players could easily be drafted 10-20 spots too high or too low, moreso than usual.
I hope Hendrix gets a workout / close look. He might make up for not taking Landry.
April 12th, 2008 at 5:00 pm
If Sonics pick below 2 I’d take Mayo or trade down or out. If you could take 3 or 4 for 8-15 and something else that might be interesting to consider. Nets have 15 and 22. That isnt enough for 3 or 4 itself but maybe you could add to it or unload a contract in the process. I am not sure the value at 3 or 4 is actually worth a lot more than 8-15 this year. But I just guessing on limited information.
April 12th, 2008 at 5:29 pm
if they weren’t thrilled with the fit to team for guys in the 3-5 range I could see trading down for Love or Greene.
April 12th, 2008 at 5:59 pm
there were 5 people with controlling votes, getting the 3 controlling votes to act on behalf of Ballmer, and to reclaim some manna, is not likely a tough thing to do. It is getting there is the hard part.
April 12th, 2008 at 6:23 pm
i think everyone is overanalyzing jeff green, he’s never been a boxscore filler or natural scorer at that. he only averaged 14 in his last year of college, shit he only averaged like 17 in highschool. if this team can acquire one or two more offensive minded players he can be a perfect role player. he’s got a beautiful jump shot and has all the tools to be a great defender. you’ve got to be crazy to want landry over green, landrys got little to no potential in my mind
April 12th, 2008 at 6:26 pm
Wally was quoted in the Seattle Times latest piece. I can tell you that the previous owners are not happy, not even a little bit. Say whatever you want about Wally but he cares about this team in this city.
Stanton wouldn’t be doing all this if he didn’t want to save the team. If the good faith is a doable piece I am certain he will work it. I can tell you that I’ve spoken to several people from the group and none of them ever anticipated that the lack of good faith would be this clear cut and documented. I think they considered it a no-win case before. Maybe that has changed.
April 12th, 2008 at 6:27 pm
You know the 5th deciding vote never gets any flack. He was a no vote on the first run, senior partner with Perkins Coie Law firm. I can’t remember his name.
April 12th, 2008 at 6:30 pm
It wouldn’t be Calhoun Dickenson by any chance, would it? I know someone who’s been involved with him in depositions–and didn’t have anything nice to say about him.
April 12th, 2008 at 7:11 pm
The choice wasn’t Green or Landry per se. They were independent decisions. they could have had both or Landry and Allen or what you could have gotten for Allen elsewhere.
But if you wanted a backup PF I like Landry. On top at a near 21-22 PER and 62% eFG he is now an above average defender- at least in the Houston context.
I’ve been more willing to slug it out in the past and in general it isn’t worth that level of emotion but I just felt like completing my presentation, for myself and any who felt it was worth reading / considering to any level.
It appears Presti / PJ / Westhead want Green to be a 15+ pt #2 or 3 scorer in 30+ minutes as a starter, probably at SF. It wasn’t enough wing D or 3 pt shooting this year but I’ll wait n see what Jeff adds to his game by next fall. It could work, I am not sayin git can’t but I am saying it looks a bit odd and off and hasn’t clicked in yet.
If Wilcox gets dealt he could end up there. Green can gets better individual numbers on offense there but the numbers don’t look good when you consider defense and the team as a whole - at least so far.
I am not sure I see how him as a starter at either spot is a great design and raises the team from where it is now but their design is the one that gets implemented and tested so my concerns / preferences are just footnotes for history.
April 12th, 2008 at 7:20 pm
If Green weren’t Durant’s 2nd worst player pair or if he had a good pair with more than one starter I’d be more willing to wait n see. Really it isn’t so much about Green as it is about the full design / coaching. But these numbers can change year to year. If things click in modestly next year I’ll get on board.
April 12th, 2008 at 7:20 pm
I hate Wally Walker and put a huge amount of blame on him for some of the moves he made to ruin this team, BUT if he is even the smallest reason why the SUPES stay in Seattle, I would love him(not as much as clay loves stern) and forget all he has done in the past. He could be a hero and turn into a fan favorite.
April 12th, 2008 at 7:29 pm
Steve Yentzer?
Stewart Landefeld?
Wally is a good guy, though the rebuilding while not losing just does not work.
The reality is that they did not have enough money to really make it work. You either need public money, or a much bigger project to place it in as a destination. The expandedbuilding would have been great for them, they only offered 18 mil, that is not going to get it done, obviously.
April 12th, 2008 at 7:32 pm
I see Perkins Coie does a good deal of work for Starbucks. That probably played a factor in eventually voting yes.
April 12th, 2008 at 7:34 pm
““I was using it as a simple level tool to frame the issue on Gfreen’s performance and future. Disdain it all you want, that’s fine. I’ll use it some.” {Crow}
Finally, Crow is no longer using tact and implying that certain posters who are homers for Kevin Durant and Jeff Green are blinded by their idiocy. It took some time, but SonicsCentral’s resident statistician has quit pulling punches and is landing stinging uppercuts up the uninformed masses.”
That’s hilarious. Nice thread Crow, as usual.
April 12th, 2008 at 7:54 pm
Thanks Ballaholic. I overdid the critique on Green in terms of volume but in some ways he seems like one of the few “unsettled” subjects in the cast that hasn’t been completely played out or proven out.
I accept the upside argument for Green in general but I guess I am just at the cautious. prove it to me end of the spectrum. The support Green has does have will cause me to test my own early views further. If I am on the wrong side, I’ll take my deductions for being too influenced by the rookie stats.
Come summer hopefully changes bring new storylines.
April 12th, 2008 at 7:59 pm
So on the sale vote initially everyone voted against Howard’s idea but he persisted and ended up convincing a lawyer of the firm that does a lot of work for Starbucks to back him (and take their delayed payday).
April 12th, 2008 at 8:13 pm
“That’s hilarious. Nice thread Crow, as usual.” {Balloholic}
Yeah, I commented on Crow’s heated remarks about Jeff Green ’cause he’s usually even-keeled, mild-mannered, and good-tempered when presenting his arguments.
Anyhow, Crow deserves tons of credit for praising Carl Landry before the 2007 NBA Draft. From what I recall, Crow was the only guy who suggested that the Seattle SuperSonics should select Landry with one of its second-round picks. A lot of people wanted either Glen “Big Baby” Davis — who, à la Landry, was dealt away by Sam Presti — or Nick Fazekas, while I campaigned heavily for Josh McRoberts.
Regarding Jeff Green, everyone here should know by now that I blasted Presti for recklessly trading Ray Allen the moment it went down on draft night. Yet, apropos of the 5th pick in the 2007 NBA Draft, my thought was that it should’ve been used to select Brandan Wright based on his potential. Unlike Presti, however, I wouldn’t've rashly shipped off Allen for a dime on the dollar.
April 12th, 2008 at 8:38 pm
Al Horford averaged 10.1 points, 9.6 rebounds, .95 blocks and .77 steals a game for the 37-43 Hawks. Durant’s per game averages are 20 points, 4.2 rebounds, .91 blocks and .96 steals for Bennett’s tank job….KD deserves the ROY award, imho.
Kobe is the MVP.
Hedo Turkoglu is the Most Improved Player…(last summer I mentioned on sonicscentral of how Hedo and Rashard are equally talented).
April 12th, 2008 at 8:48 pm
I believe u about Wally W. Brian. Although some may not respect bball mind, he was good enough to actually play in the NBA, get a couple rings(i believe), and he also seems like a more decent person than the other characters involved. I think if people r willing to forgive Bennett, Stern, Schultz, then they’d definitely be willing to cut Wally some slack if he joined the fight…
April 12th, 2008 at 8:48 pm
that’s HIS bball mind…
April 12th, 2008 at 9:57 pm
AK did blast the Boston trade right away and I see his case now better than I did then.
At that time I think I was part shocked, part impressed by the boldness, part ready to move on from Ray, part curious about what West, Green and Wally could do. It was change.
After the Cleveland trade it was reduced to salary dump and Green. I dislike the first part because of the years of waiting involved and I have been disappointed by Green stats. Coupled with Presti’s selection of PJ and his extremely limited contact and apparent interest in Seattle fans I have moved more negative on the Boston deal and Presti.
But moving on, perhaps Green could fit and a plausible design could take shape if they get Rose. Run the dribble drive offense; heck hire its creator as an assistant coach. Aim to be top 10 minimum at drawing fouls instead of 26th to offset the lack of high percentage shots from 3 pt land. Rose, Durant, Green make sense for that. A truly good interior defender would then be highest priority to get stops, fastbreaks, and allow more man pressure to limit 3 pt attack against us and produce more turnovers than the zone which is ending up hardly better than last season on defensive efficiency.
April 12th, 2008 at 10:01 pm
Some of the 2nd rounders should probably be used on getting bench 3 pt shooters.
April 12th, 2008 at 10:16 pm
“I’ll take my deductions for being too influenced by the rookie stats.”—Crow.
I said it before and I’ll say it again. You cannot judge a player by their rookie stats. There are a lot of intangibles that a PER stat will never be able to capture. Green’s performance in the recent game against Denver was pretty damn impressive. You can call it a bright spot in a bleak season, but, it is what it is…a 30+ point game in the NBA. At best right now, Green could be compared to James Worthy light because he does have a nack for running the floor well on the wing. At worst, maybe Boris Diaw. But, it is a team sport and much crappier players have been picked higher. I enjoy watching him. KD enjoys playing with him, and I expect him to continue to improve for several years in the league.
He was worth the number 5 pick in my opinion. That’s not to say that Horton or someone else wouldn’t have been a good pick, but, I’m okay with Green. I loved Ray Allen too, and I’ll be happy for him if he gets a ring. But, that’s beside the point.
———————————————————————-
Here’s another point. There are plenty of dudes on our team who may have a higher PER than Green who I would never want to build a team around.
April 13th, 2008 at 6:44 am
“At best right now, Green could be compared to James Worthy light because he does have a nack for running the floor well on the wing. At worst, maybe Boris Diaw.” {James B.}
Although Jeff Green’s upside is that of a prime James Worthy, Boris Diaw is a middle-of-the-road comparison for him rather than his potential downside. If Green completely bottoms out within the next couple of seasons — which is an improbable possibility — then his career arc would be similar to, uh, Ed O’Bannon.
“Green’s performance in the recent game against Denver was pretty damn impressive. You can call it a bright spot in a bleak season, but, it is what it is…a 30+ point game in the NBA.”
Y’know, the Denver Nuggets play at a blazing pace with mediocre wing defenders — as Carmelo Anthony and Linas Kleiza don’t scare anyone — thus, I’d chalk up Green’s performance as an anomaly. Besides, it’s more prudent to analyze Green’s entire body of work instead of just one game.
“But, it is a team sport and much crappier players have been picked higher.”
Many better players have been drafted lower than Green, too, so we can toss that argument out the window.
April 13th, 2008 at 10:51 am
Green will get year 2 and 3 to show his talents, his rise in stats, his level of success with Durant.
His longrun role can be revised if necessary after a sufficient run measured in years instead of months.
I agree that a moderate or good PER is not necessarily an endorsement of a player. Fit is very important, defense is very important.
I wish Green well with his work to meet the challenge.
April 13th, 2008 at 11:24 am
Green is a PER 9 at SF so far while a PER 14 at PF. This is significantly influenced by the value of the additional rebounds collected when in the role of PF and closer to the basket.
So a big part of Green’s low rookie PER appears to be playing out of position. That’s on Presti and PJ.
If they truly believe he can be a successful SF go for it. Finetune the strategy and get the best out of him. But if it doesn’t work the numbers will show it.
Currently they show him getting outrebounded at SF by opponent by the equivalent of 2 a game, roughly double his deficit at PF. That couple with shooting 34% on jumpers and a weak floor game. Seems like good management could get better out of him.
April 13th, 2008 at 12:02 pm
Landry isn’t a Sonic but since I’ve talked some about him I probably should add that part of his big success should be attributed to being a beneficiary of playing with Yao and McGrady, to being an unknown, to being well suited for his role, to being in a good system. Green hasn’t had those advantages.
If Green is a SF who likes to operate inside the system has to promote space for that. Lack of team 3pt shooting probably hurts him some.
Playing with Wilcox has produced better team results but there is no sign of real synergy between the two in their personal stats, it is just that Wilcox on court is the Sonics best look / chance. He also plays better with Ridnour.
Perhaps Ridnour, Green, Wilcox could play together in the rotation more often. With a 3 pt shooter.
Durant shoots better when with Watson Collison and Petro.
Let Green start with Durant if they want but I wouldn’t overly force the play together stuff unless it actually starts working. Right now the team loses by almost twice as much when they are on court together vs just one. Use each with the guys they work best with.