Interpreting Slade
Posted on Tuesday, April 22nd, 2008 at 7:52 am by Brian Robinson
So I expect a lot of traffic over Greg Johns article today.
Personally I’m happy that Slade came out and said “We want to talk.”
I think some people will jump off a cliff and hear the “He acknowledges this team is gone.” portion of the interview. Others will be happy to hear that he and the mayor are sticking to their guns regarding a financial settlement.
I know we all prefer this team. That said from my perspective this particular organization is really soiled at the moment. I’m not sure how attached I am to this particular group.
If you are in the camp that says “This group or nobody!” then just make sure you understand the odds. We are stacked up against Billionaires and the league as a whole. We have a multi-front battle against our own politicians as well as the owners. Think about how attached you are to these particular guys and ask yourself what difference it would make if there were 5 guys in Sonics jerseys next year playing ball. Would you sacrifice that for the chance to keep this group?
We talk about optimism and keeping hope alive. I think you all need to understand that we are continually optimistic that we have a fighting chance. This is not the same as a slam dunk or saying that we are optimistic this is a done deal. We face a lot of adversity here and nothing is guaranteed. When you say “I’m willing to fight the fight for these guys.” you really are going in double or nothing, with a shot at winding up with nothing.
I am personally in the camp that we need to set our goal for the more achievable “we want basketball and we’ll settle out how as those options materialize” approach. I have a fairly strong personal feeling that, if we can begin down that road, there will simply be a lot of logistical forces encouraging a logical step in which we keep this team. The fact is that Seattle values this squad more than Oklahoma and it is somewhat of a face saver for the league to retain the tradition, not have to realign divisions, not have to ask two groups of players to move, etc. If we get control of another franchise or a promise of expansion then that leverage to see what happens.
I read one comment that implies Slades desire to settle before court is a sign that he lacks confidence in a win. That is not the case. The simple fact is that going to court is a huge deterrant for the NBA. They don’t want to do it and we have some leverage prior to making them. After they have already endured the hardship of the trial that leverage goes away. That is why these next several weeks are simply a crucial time for trying to make some deal. There are a ton of floating deadlines. The first is between now and the depositions, then now and the trial, then the start of next season, etc. Each deadline provides an opportunity to get something done and each one which passes represents a missed opportunity.
It is time for both the city and the league to start talking reasonably about options that settle this matter before it gets uglier. We’ve done a good job at creating the intolerable mess for everybody. Now the question is whether they simply choose to endure that mess out of stubborness or if they start to look for solutions. I hope they look for solutions.
April 22nd, 2008 at 7:55 am
Can Stern even guarantee that we get a team by a certain year? I mean there has to be a team on the market, and that owner has to want to sell to seattle.
April 22nd, 2008 at 8:03 am
I don’t think any one is too attached to anybody on this squad. Everybody just doesn’t want to lose out on Kevin Durant & Jeff Green, myself included. We don’t want to lose these guys, plain and simple.
April 22nd, 2008 at 8:03 am
I don’t think any one is too attached to anybody on this squad. Everybody just doesn’t want to lose out on Kevin Durant & Jeff Green, myself included. We don’t want to lose these guys, plain and simple.
April 22nd, 2008 at 8:10 am
Probably already been asked but how are the Sonics going to play at the Ford Center next year if they are going to renovate it? Are they renovating it after next year? November is coming fast, and renovations take time. Will they play in Stillwater or Norman? Brian, should I even waste my time calling the Governor’s hotline today?
April 22nd, 2008 at 8:26 am
First off, the link to the article:
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/basketball/360032_arena22.html
April 22nd, 2008 at 8:30 am
I don’t support a franchise and I don’t support a group. I support a team. A team that includes Green, Durant, Nick and the rest of them, through thick and thin.
April 22nd, 2008 at 8:31 am
Please say it aint so Brian. I have not read the article you are talking about yet, but it sounds to me like we are loosing our leverage. I don’t want to lose Durant. Mark my words, WE WILL NEVER GET ANOTHER PLAYER LIKE DURANT. It really sounds like we should start expecting a buyout of the lease in the next couple of weeks. There is still no reason why they can’t relocate Memphis or whoever else wants to move to OKC and sell to Clay Clay, and let us keep our 41 year old team right where it is. Please tell me we still have a shot at keeping Durant. I could see, MAYBE, down the road I might feel differently about a different sonics team in Seattle, but for right now, I think I still feel like its this team or I’m done with the NBA. Man, what a DAMN SH–TY way to start the day!This FFFNNN rollercoaster is swaying back to the OKIES. I WANT DURANT!!!!!!!!!!!
April 22nd, 2008 at 8:32 am
Great comments as always, BR!!! I love the prospect of keeping KD, Green, and possibly D-Rose. But the fact is, Bennett is hell-bent on movin’ this team to OKC. We can use his “I’m a man-posessed” mentality to help us in our quest to keep NBA basketball here in Seattle.
You’re “double or nothing” analogy is so fitting. We could leverage another team out of stern, leverage a big buyout from Clay, and move forward on getting the Key redone and putting Ballmer into an owner’s seat.
As everything stands right now, I think we’re actually in a good spot. Not for keeping this current team in town. But to use the impending court case to get all we can out of Satan and Stern.
Thanks again for all you’ve done and continue to do, Brian. If and when Ballmer gets a team here, you deserve free season tickets for life.
April 22nd, 2008 at 8:39 am
I’ve pretty much changed my mind.Our best shot is get the key ingredients together.I think we can get the 75 mil from the Gov.Get the key remodel going.Leverage law suit for a guarantee of team.A new Seattle Supersonics!!!w/ local owners.
I mean Brian’s right.How much did you really care about a sonic once he was traded?Now we are getting into what it’s about.How do you explain being a fan?We just are.Keep the green and gold and get behind a new sonics.It’s that easy.
April 22nd, 2008 at 8:40 am
“I have not read the article you are talking about yet, but it sounds to me like we are loosing our leverage.”
Locking yourself into one solution is when you lose all your leverage in a situation.
Think of this as a big game theory, being played out in three cities with about 12 variables. When one of the three sides is locked into a position and the third major player is siding with that position, if you try to lock into the opposite position you’ll lose.
The best way to keep this team, the one you’re fighting for (for some god unknown reason, since they suck and with the exception of maybe Luke and Nick you shouldn’t have much of a connection with any of them) is to keep the lines of communication open. If all you’re doing is drawing a line in the sand you lose leverage each day.
April 22nd, 2008 at 8:40 am
Second, I am from the camp that says “This group or nobody!” and I think conceding defeat on this group is a bad idea. The NBA will not leave us empty handed for long. We are too big of a market and we have AT LEAST 2 local groups that are willing to buy the Sonics, I’m sure that they will also be willing to buy the Grizz or the Hornets if either of them come up for sale.
I’m in the fight to win it all, I think we have all of the momentum despite the vote and I can’t believe we would give it up. If we have all of the leverage, why are we making the first concessions? Shouldn’t they be offering us this option?
From where I am sitting, it looks like we will have this team in Seattle for two more years as long as we DON’T make a deal. During that time we maybe able to make selling the team the best option for Clay.
Maybe Balmer will buy the grizzlies and trade them to Clay for the Sonics. Maybe lots of things could happen… but none of those things can happen if we give up on this team and get on our knees and beg David Stern for a team… anyteam.
David Stern loves it when people get on their knees for him, ask Clay.
April 22nd, 2008 at 8:46 am
Arena Funding is still the absolute number one priority as it has been for 4 years. If the city wants momentum, leverage, and options they need to get it done. Slade seems to trying to open up dialog with the NBA about a solution while at the same time proding legislature for action. Granted getting either entity to move is harder than woodpecker lips. I believe in Slade. Rossi 08.
April 22nd, 2008 at 8:47 am
The biggest problem is nothing can be set in stone until there is an arena solution. If something isn’t worked out on an arena before the trial starts, then the best that could be hoped for right now is a promise of another team when the arena problem is resolved. Will Slade settle for a promise?
April 22nd, 2008 at 8:50 am
Just read Johns article. I think I’m going to cry. I wont support another team. It just doesn’t feel right. Its only 2 or 3 months between the SuperBowl and Baseball season. Maybe I can finally do some work on my house. THIS SUCKS!
Oh Wait! I just thought of one way I would feel alright. We get a team that still go by Sonics and in 2010 Durant signs with Seattle. Talk about a great day. We get Durant and Cay Clay looses his first of many big free agents that dont want to play in the dirt in Okieville!
April 22nd, 2008 at 8:55 am
Right on Griff.
April 22nd, 2008 at 8:57 am
While I can appreciate the notion of just getting a NBA team no matter what.
But, first I do not want another cities team. I do not want to be ‘clay’. It doesn’t matter how bad a turn out a team like memphis has. There is a fan base, there are families that live breath grizzlies.
How can we sit here talking about taking another team, when we are crying about someone taking ours?
IF there was to be a seamless expansion, then that is something I could possibly live with.
But as sonics fan, we have gone years of losing, only to finally NOW get the likes of durant, green, and/or beasley/rose. While no huge emotional ties to these guys - feel this has more to do with the current situation than anything. We as fans deserve THIS team.
How quickly can an expansion team be competitive?
April 22nd, 2008 at 8:58 am
Griff - I’m in your camp.
This group or nobody FOR SURE!
If these KD Sonics leave, I’m joining the Citizens For More Important Things.
NO PUBLIC MONEY FOR A NEW KD-LESS SONICS TEAM!
April 22nd, 2008 at 9:02 am
My immediate reaction to the Johns article was this:
The thought of moving to Portland just got a whole lot more appealing.
April 22nd, 2008 at 9:02 am
“If these KD Sonics leave, I’m joining the Citizens For More Important Things.”
You do realize Chris is on the side of having this arena plan that Slade worked out become a reality, right? So by joining his group, you’d in essence just be a whinier version of what you are now.
April 22nd, 2008 at 9:04 am
A promise is worthless. You don’t do business with liars. Even if we built an arena the NBA has no plans to expand and Stern does not control who sells to whom. Do you want another out of town owner? That is probably what you get. Will Ballmer build an arena for some other owner? Why should he. With no team the $150M commitment from Ballmer is gone.
Stern cannot promise something he does not own. Without a deal Ballmer could still buy any team that is available. The NBA is not going to deny the sale or turn Ballmer down as an owner. That would be an illegal restraint of trade. It is probably better for Ballmer to buy the team first and then build the arena. The legislature is more likely to support a building if their is a tenant.
April 22nd, 2008 at 9:04 am
“How quickly can an expansion team be competitive?”
About as quickly as this team can.
This team sucks, and sure they might be something in the future but they did lose what 27 of thier last 33 games…..
April 22nd, 2008 at 9:05 am
What does Shultz’s lawsuit have to do with any of this? Could he still get an injunction to hold the team here until the lawsuit is finished? Is he even going to file a lawsuit? What the hell is going on around here?I hope the majority of the fans are for THIS TEAM and can still put the pressure on the mayor and or Shultz. If anyone knows anything, please fill us in.
April 22nd, 2008 at 9:08 am
I think this is my last time looking at SonicsCentral.com. I have suffered through the past 10 years of Sonics basketball, watched as they have faded into 3rd place in Seattle sports fan’s interest. Had to suffer through Kemp holding out, then the lockout, Vin Baker getting fat, Mcilvaine getting paid, Gary getting crapped on by Howie, Wally Walker going from color man to GM?, 10 playoff wins in those 10 years, Polynice coming back, two years in the Barn, 3 first round centers no one had heard of, Ehlo as colorman, Shultz promise of a 5 year championship plan, on and on and on, and now that we the fans have been totally screwed by the NBA, and have gotten behind Saving Our Sonics, We are being asked to negotiate so we can have the PRIVILAGE of having the NBA by screwing another city the same way we have been screwed. Imagine the little Chris Paul fan in New Orleans, you know, the kid who has already lost everything, was screwed by his own government in the face of Tragedy this nation has never before seen, losing probably the only thing he has to be proud of, the Hornets. How could anyone want the NBA after this, if it is not the current Sonics? No Thanks.
April 22nd, 2008 at 9:09 am
Which would you rather have -
Option A:
- Go to court in June, win, and hold the team to the lease.
- Watch Stern and Bennett scream and squirm for 2 years.
- Wait for other arena/replacement team options to surface.
- In the meantime, watch Durant, Green, and Rose for 2 years.
- Listen to Stern scream “Seattle will never get another team!”
- Take the chance that by pissing off Stern and the NBA now, once the current Sonics are gone in 2010, we’ll be without a team for a few years, or at least until a new $500 arena is built.
OR
Option B:
- accept a lease buyout of $50-60 million from Bennett.
- use the buyout to pay off the Key Arena debt.
- let the current Sonics team leave now.
- be without NBA basketball for an unknown period of time.
- continue working on new arena/funding options.
- get a “promise” of a future expansion/replacement team.
- get back on Stern’s good side.
To me, this is a slam dunk - no contest which option I’d choose.
April 22nd, 2008 at 9:10 am
As much as I want to be in the double or nothing group, I cant. The one thing I want to have guaranteed here is Sonics basketball. Yes it would suck losing Durant. Yes it would suck losing the draft picks. But at the end of the day if we get a new franchise, expansion or relocation, we will have new owners that are fucktards, a new arena, and actually have a vision for the future. By simply doing the double or nothing I think we are limiting ourselves to having basketball here. I love the NBA, even if their business model makes as much sense as Britney Spears winning Mother of the Year awards. I want to keep the NBA here regardless. As far as Seattle is a great market, I dont think Stern gives a rats ass. He is more concerned with Barcelona, Madrid and Beijing than he is a Seattle, Tampa, St. Louis, San Francisco or Anaheim. Anyways, just my thoughts.
April 22nd, 2008 at 9:11 am
Patches Pal Says:
April 22nd, 2008 at 9:04 am
“A promise is worthless. You don’t do business with liars. Even if we built an arena the NBA has no plans to expand and Stern does not control who sells to whom. Do you want another out of town owner? That is probably what you get. Will Ballmer build an arena for some other owner? Why should he. With no team the $150M commitment from Ballmer is gone.
Stern cannot promise something he does not own. Without a deal Ballmer could still buy any team that is available. The NBA is not going to deny the sale or turn Ballmer down as an owner. That would be an illegal restraint of trade. It is probably better for Ballmer to buy the team first and then build the arena. The legislature is more likely to support a building if their is a tenant.”
EXACTLY.
April 22nd, 2008 at 9:17 am
Scott, do you even watch the games or do you go by what Sportscenter says. We have a very good young core of players. Durant is a stud, Green is a perfect compliment to him, and then add Rose or Beasley and keep Collison and Watson as a backup PG and you have a solid team already. Now ADD 5 MORE FIRST ROUND PICKS in the next 3 drafts plus tons of cap room for a top notch free agent. We are stupid to let THIS TEAM go. I agree our record was terrible, but if you are a true fan, then you realized what has happened in the last 2 years and more noticably this year. The ownership made our team bad and very young on purpose so the fans would not turn out and make it easier to leave, but at the same time, Clay Boy gave himself a couple of years to make sure that when they get to OKIEVILLE they will be competative right away. If they can keep there players there and get a good free agent they can compete for the title for the next 10 years just like San Antonio. I’m not talking about next year, but in 3 or 4 years, watch out.
April 22nd, 2008 at 9:17 am
Slade is trying to work out a viable solution to keep the NBA in Seattle. THis should should be the long-term overriding goal of all Sonics fans.
Durant and Green are great. The reality though is that players come and go. Durant and Green could be traded tomorrow. One or both of them could leave as free agents in a few years. (Player free agency is one thing; franchise free agency is another.) Some of you are getting way too attached to individual players; the big picture of this situation must be completely analyzed.
The Senators left DC twice; DC now as the Nationals. The Browns left Cleveland; Cleveland got a new Browns team. The Braves left Milwaukee; Milwaukee has been happy with the Brewers. The North Stars left Minnesota for Dallas, Minnesota now as the Wild. The Warriors left Philly; the 76ers have been a good frachise for Philly. The Athletics left KC for Oakland, KC has been happy with the Royals.
Okay, you folks see my point that sports franchises can be successfully recreated in cities. The same can happen with the NBA in Seattle.
A committed local Seattle Sonics ownership, with salary cap space, draft picks, a remodeled Key Arena, could be a good long-term situation for NBA fans in Seattle. I understand the satisfaction of seeing Bennett and company bleed in this lease for two years, but again, a long-term solution can be worked out.
April 22nd, 2008 at 9:19 am
O, brother, now we get to argue about who is a ‘true’ fan. Count me out of that fight…
April 22nd, 2008 at 9:20 am
Don’t forget that if Seattle gets a new team as part of a deal, it is possible that Durant and Green could come back and play for Seattle one day.
April 22nd, 2008 at 9:21 am
Another point I want to make is, say we go to court and win. We then have two years left with this team. At the end Bennett will move to OKC. I have no doubt about that, he will lose money until he can get a team there. He and Stern are stubborn as hell. This way would guarantee us a team. Add in the emotional factor- If this team is in the playoffs, then moves, we’re gunna be even more heart broken than now.
April 22nd, 2008 at 9:23 am
OPTION A, slamdunk for me too. No contest. A “promise” from Stern, are you kidding me. I want to see what comes out in court on how crooked the NBA and Stern are. Even if it means we dont ever get a team again. We might still have Howie to fall back on? Come on Howie, SUE the FFFFFFFFF out of Clay Boy!
April 22nd, 2008 at 9:24 am
TERRIBLE!
Change the name to
SELL our Sonics.
That is EXACTLY what is being endorsed here!
So angry. Can’t even think straight. AAARGH!
April 22nd, 2008 at 9:25 am
Right now Mitch has an interesting text message poll going on.
His hypothetical deal.
Seattle get’s 50 million cash.
All names, colors, logos, history.
Written guarantee that they will get a team by 2011 or earlier..
as long as the Key get’s renovated or new stadium.
You have to text a Yes or No only answer. No explanations. He is going to forward the results to the Mayor.
Text 49451 with your answer
April 22nd, 2008 at 9:26 am
Sorry. Three reasons I refuse to settle.
1. Kevin Durant leaves. We watched a crap team and finally got rewarded and we cant even enjoy it. We had to soak up a decade of crap just to watch an arrogant OKC get to reap the benefits?
2. Clay Bennett gets away with this shit.
3. David Stern gets away with this shit.
Having a different team in Seattle benefits both men. I rather them burn in hell. They dont deserve the good it does for them. We dont deserve the bad being done to us.
I honestly cannot watch this team knowing Bennett and Stern got away with this. I cant. I wont.
Its this team, or im dumb with the NBA. And if there is another team in Seattle, im sorry…but im still rooting for the NBA to go to hell.
April 22nd, 2008 at 9:27 am
I’m OK with Salde’s comments. He is not promising anything and he indicates they need a clear commitment for nBA hoops in Seattle - no a vague “Maybe/Promise”. I think Salde gets that we can trust Stern. But this is a good step to try 7 open conversations. Looks - wea re all mad at Stern & the league - but we have to work with them.
For myself - I’m in the “Go for this team Period” minset… but I think you can have that and still talk to the NBA and see what develops and maybe you have to go in willing to listen to other ideas even if you are committed to one path - just to flesh out the options and process.
Slades comments are fine - he is bright and committed. As long as Nichols is committed to no settlement we have a chance.
Meanwhile…. The arena thing still hangs out there….
April 22nd, 2008 at 9:27 am
If this current team leaves it will be a giant slap in the face to every Sonic/NBA fan in the world.
The slap will be coming from many different locations.
OKC, Olympia, Stern, Starbucks, and 28 NBA cities.
If this current team leaves I am done with the NBA.
Period. Forever. It is simple to me.
Thousands of people feel this same way.
I cannot understand why everyone does not feel this way.
The NBA & Stern do not care one little bit. To them fans are dust in the wind. The NBA is catering to the wealthy few and the millions of fans are a byproduct, a symptom of a Billionaires plaything.
Personally I am of the opinion that after this team leaves, we should pass legislation that bans the NBA from WA state for 100 years.
April 22nd, 2008 at 9:27 am
At 9:04 Scott claimed that an expansion team would take about as long to be competitive as this current roster. Wow! Since when does an expansion team begin with 3 top 5 picks? one of whom is Kevin Durant? And if Derek Rose is added this team is going to compete deep into the playoffs in a couple years. WAY faster than any expansion team I can think of. Just compare the Hornets to the Bobcats.
April 22nd, 2008 at 9:28 am
“No contest. A “promise” from Stern, are you kidding me.”
Slade Gorton is not talking about a promise to get a team, he’s talking about the league assuring a team in Seattle.
“All the league has to do to lead to an amicable settlement is see to it that we’re assured of a new team, Gorton said.”
April 22nd, 2008 at 9:28 am
The NBA will not expand, plain and simple. It’s either keep this team or steal another one away from another city. Those are our only options here folks (outside of staying out of the business of the NBA). Let’s quit trying to play the martyr city and realize what it will take if we want to be in business with the NBA. I hate having to think about stealing another city’s team after what happened to ours, but the reality is that some rich business person will do it so it might as well be a rich business person from Seattle.
April 22nd, 2008 at 9:29 am
Can someone please answer the question. Even if we get a written agreement that we will get a new team. What if the owner does not want to sell to seattle..what if no team wants to move for another 10 years?
So even if we get a agreement with Stern, if there is no team to move or sell, then in reality that agreement really means nothing doesn’t it?
April 22nd, 2008 at 9:30 am
I hate it.
But, I would settle if it guarantees Sonics bball in Seattle.
Makes me sick.
April 22nd, 2008 at 9:32 am
Sometime in the very near future…
NBA: “Hey Seattle remember when we f****d you and let the Sonics move to OKC”
Seattle: “Let’s not talk about that but thanks for giving us the new team”
NBA: “No problem. Thing is that stadium you built, well it’s looking a bit old. Yeh it’s a bit 2015 looking for us”
Seattle: “Eh?”
NBA: “Thing is Las Vegas needs a team and we said we’ve said they can move there”
Seattle: “But…”
NBA: “But don’t worry, I promise you’ll get an expansion team”
Seattle: “Well as long as you can promise an expansion team I guess we’ll go along with it”
April 22nd, 2008 at 9:32 am
I know this sounds a little crazy, but what if, assuming the Sonics are held to their lease agreement, Ballmer or another Seattle group buys the Hornets or Grizzlies and tries to relocate them to Oklahoma City before Clay could relocate there. This is a long shot, but what if we could bargain another franchise moving to Oklahoma City that has very little fan base to begin with.
April 22nd, 2008 at 9:33 am
“Slade is trying to work out a viable solution to keep the NBA in Seattle. THis should should be the long-term overriding goal of all Sonics fans.” –CmonPaulAllen
I disagree. To keep the Sonics in Seattle is the Sonics fans goal. To keep the NBA in Seattle is the NBA fans goal.
April 22nd, 2008 at 9:34 am
51% don’t take the deal, 49% yes? This city is so Fickle.
April 22nd, 2008 at 9:37 am
Can Stern actually guarantee we can get a team in here? how can he do that? jesus.
April 22nd, 2008 at 9:38 am
I’m with courtsense’s Option A.
“- Go to court in June, win, and hold the team to the lease.
- Watch Stern and Bennett scream and squirm for 2 years.
- Wait for other arena/replacement team options to surface.
- In the meantime, watch Durant, Green, and Rose for 2 years.
- Listen to Stern scream “Seattle will never get another team!”
- Take the chance that by pissing off Stern and the NBA now, once the current Sonics are gone in 2010, we’ll be without a team for a few years, or at least until a new $500 arena is built.”
And Scott,
And expansion team will suck far more than this team for far longer simply because an expansion team will be made up solely of other teams’ throw aways, no KD/Jeff Green/Nick Collison-types, and will be faced with battling great teams in a tough western conference.
Right now we have a once in a blue moon player in KD, and we’re just supposed to put our hands up and let that go, along with letting King David and Clay walk all over us? Maybe I’m just not enough into taking it up the ass from big businesses like the NBA while gaining NOTHING, but I will oppose an expansion settlement with the same energy I am using to save these Sonics. I do not want to support a going nowhere ever Charlotte Bobcats in Seattle.
NO NEW SONICS FRANCHISE!
SAVE THESE KD-LED SONICS!!!
April 22nd, 2008 at 9:39 am
I don’t like it.
Mitch is just trying to get HIS plan some pub, plant some seeds for who knows who, &/or make himself feel big.
What good is the team name & colors now? If they go, all that stuff won’t mean jack to me anymore(after all that’s happened). I’d rather say f the nba, or if a new team comes then start over so that I won’t have to be reminded of this crappy episode anymore.
I won’t feel like this is a victory if it goes through, & I won’t feel as if I’ve never had the rug pulled out from me either. Keeping the name is supposed to make this a victory, & make everything AOK? I hope not, & I dare Clay Bennett to call his team the OKC Sonics anyway, & try to hang some retired jerseys in his arena. I DARE HIM. Not even mr. audacity has that much audacity, but if he does then let him be reminded of his theft, & shameful means of fulfilling his desire everytime he goes to a game. Bargaining for the name is lower than low imo.
Random thoughts, but it’s just how I feel. If people disagree that’s fine, as this is their team as much as it is mine.
April 22nd, 2008 at 9:40 am
It sounds like most people are on the THIS TEAM OR FFF THE NBA side. I’m gald to hear this. Now we need to email, call the mayor and let him know our thoughts. We want this team. I cant even imagine being involved with this league knowing that we got totally screwed and gave in to what they want. Total bullsh@#. I would rather lose the NBA knowing that we fought for what is right and for OUR team of 41 fffffffnnnnnn years than to give in to the crooked doings of STERN, CLAY BOY,AND THE OTHER OWNERS. Just not right!
April 22nd, 2008 at 9:41 am
Its going to be hard enough to watch the NBA if we manage to keep this team here. The corruption is astonishing.
I already hate the NBA now, after Stern brushed off the emails…its just a matter of whether I support a professional basketball team or not.
April 22nd, 2008 at 9:42 am
I have no problem with Slade’s comments in the scope of negotiations, but I sincerely hope that is all they are.
We all know that NBA promises are EMPTY promises.
Letting the NBA off the hook in exchange for some empty promise is just rolling over and TAKING IT!
THINK about it: We can get another team at ANY TIME if an Arena exists here. Use your BRAIN. Do you think Memphis or NO or any other money losing owner would be able to resist moving to Seattle if a new Arena exists?
This so-called solution rubs me totally the wrong way!
SELL OUR SONICS!!!
April 22nd, 2008 at 9:42 am
I simply can`t see that the greedy NBA could leave a market the size of Seattle (with a 41 year history of supporting the sport) without a franchise for any considerable length of time if a new arena was in place. Also, the precedent which has now been set allowing rich owners to buy a team and do what it likes means Ballmer and co could `pull a Clay` with another franchise. Short term Seattle fans may have to suffer without basketball but looking long term i can`t believe this would continue.
I`m speculating but I`d be amazed (even if the city were to lose its case) if the upcoming case doesn`t bring out some major dirt on Sterns management of this whole fiasco. This must surely lead to a loss of credibility and trust amongst the billionaire owners he holds so dear. Add to this his age and the financial mess of the NBA makes me suspect Sterns tenure as comissioner must surely be coming under pressure. Therefore his personal vindictiveness towards Seattle holds no fear either.
I`m not an advocate of doing things just for the sake of it but i think Seattle needs to be the city that stands up to this tyrant and says enough is enough. It may mean a double or nothing bet but thats the way i`d like to see this go. You need to risk all in order to win big.
April 22nd, 2008 at 9:43 am
EVERYONE!
SUPPORT THE COURT DATE IN JUNE!
We have a shot at battling against and beating a big business!
DON’T LOSE THE HOPE AND GO RON SIMMS ON SAVING OUR SONICS!
April 22nd, 2008 at 9:43 am
epx,
In all fairness Mitch says he will NOT take the deal.
April 22nd, 2008 at 9:44 am
“Okay, you folks see my point that sports franchises can be successfully recreated in cities. The same can happen with the NBA in Seattle.”
I agree… but why fight for something that’s probably going to happen anyway? Seattle will have a team in the next 10 years no matter what… I am not going to stop fighting for this team so that the NBA doesn’t have to take a break from making money in Seattle.
I’m fighting to keep Kevin Durant and co. in town, if they leave I will consider our efforts a failure. I don’t plan on following the NBA if they think the can just switch teams on me unless they gave us like San Antonio or something…
I would liken it to this:
Let’s say that someone threatened to kidnap your wife (the Sonics), you would be like “F&*$ YOU” and fight them well lets say they do kidnap your wife and then replace her with a new wife that is just about as ugly. That would still suck, I’d still be pissed… and while I may boink her once and while… I would still feel betrayed by the kidnapper and the large corporation that facilitated the whole thing.
Now lets say they replaced the old wife with… I don’t know… Jessica Alba (the Celtics). I’d be ok with that… but that’s not what is happening. They are taking the team that I grew to love and they want to replace it with some other team and for me to be passive about it. Well F*($ YOU David Stern.
If we give the NBA an inch they will take our team and not look back.
April 22nd, 2008 at 9:47 am
He says that, but I don’t buy it, & didn’t buy it when he said it a few weeks back(listen to his tone of voice). Why is he even talking about this idea if he wouldn’t take the deal in the first place. That doesn’t make sense, & it sounds like he’s trying to play both sides of the fence.
April 22nd, 2008 at 9:48 am
Seriously, if the relocation committee states that Clay will have to re-apply to move the Sonics in a year or two years from now once the Seattle lease is up, Shultz, or Ballmer, could be Seattle heroes if they bought the Grizzlies and moved them before Clay could move. Although what would Clay then do, move the team to Las Vegas?
April 22nd, 2008 at 9:49 am
I laugh at some of the comments, first of all the people who are saying we want the team with Kevin Durant, think about this, Kevin Durant’s agent is Aaron Goodwin who is also Gary Payton’s agent. Durant prefers Seattle and his contract is up in the 2010 season and he is not likely to sign in OKC. If Seattle got another “franchise called the Sonics” it is likely that Aaron Goodwin would have discussion with the “NEW” Sonics team for him to continue to play. Having guys like GP giving him direction behind the scenes it is not out of the question at the end of the day we could loose this current team and still get a team with Kevin Durant. As for the league expanding don’t rule it out. If expanding one team means they stop the trial and don’t air out all of the financial records for all the teams the owners may go along with it. This is very nerve racking time for the NBA and I think they will take drastic measures to stop the trial. We need to continue to work to get an arena package in place. Steve Ballmer and company will still play a big role and who knows maybe suddenly the Portland Trailblazers could up and move to Seattle and become the Sonics. Nobody knows what could happen.
April 22nd, 2008 at 9:49 am
I am not surprised that the leaders are giving up and shooting for ANY team. Sure I would love to start all over again with a crappy franchise after enduring the past few years and last year especially of crap basketball. Kevin Durant, Jeff Green and Derrick Rose for ??? The grizzlies..no thanks. We are Bending over for Clay and the NBA when Oklahoma is the one that should be starting from scratch. This is a horrible precedent to start
April 22nd, 2008 at 9:49 am
Is the court case open to the public?
April 22nd, 2008 at 9:49 am
In fact, anyone who gives in now might as well eat their integrity and jump on the Gregoire ‘08 campaign.
We’ve said we’re tired of do-nothing politics and want to save our Sonics, so let’s continue to do something! Let’s fight this battle instead of lying down and getting steamrolled!
April 22nd, 2008 at 9:52 am
I know that a rational outside observer would be able to step back and say, look 10 years down the road. You look at the 41 year history of this franchise and say, the guys on this team are not the guys that were on this team 10 years from now. 10 years ago we had Payton and Kemp. Now we have neither, but we have Green and Durant. If we lose “these” Sonics, then 10 years from now we won’t have Durant or Green, but we’ll have some new guys. Unless we don’t settle, in which case there’s a good chance we’ll have no one, and our kids who never connected with Green and Durant will have no one to connect with because we were selfish and sacrificed the future by being as petty and stubborn as Stern and Bennett.
That being said, though, I’m tired. I’m not a rational outside observer. I’ve been on this emotional roller coaster too long. I can’t help it - if I were in charge, I wouldn’t settle. If BENNETT AND STERN WIN (and if we settle, they’ve won) I don’t foresee myself ever being able to love and respect the NBA again.
I don’t know what’s going to happen. And I’m getting dangerously close to not caring any more.
April 22nd, 2008 at 9:53 am
People keep throwing Vegas in the mix but they do not have an arena ready for a while and the NBA has not even studied the market. Harrah’s is building a new arena near the strip to attract the NHL and NBA but will not start construction until after 2010. They are likely to land the NHL before the NBA. The only available arena in vegas is the Thomas & Mack center which is a dump compared to the current KeyArena and was frowned upon by the NBA after the All-star game.
April 22nd, 2008 at 9:53 am
The point is: There is NO NEED to settle the suit in order for Seattle to get another NBA team.
We need a new arena regardless of which team plays in Seattle. So, when/if an Arena is built we’re getting a team. Some owner will want to be here. There’s just no way that the NBA (even with the claimed vindictiveness intended by Stern) would be able to keep it’s hands of the LARGEST OPEN tv market in the US. No Way.
FIGHT to keep this team.
NO Buyout until AFTER we win the court case.
SAVE our Sonics!
April 22nd, 2008 at 9:53 am
Ok, so while I love Rudy Gay and certainly think his future is bright, stealing the Grizz from Memphis to replace our stolen team is a horrible trend to continue.
April 22nd, 2008 at 9:54 am
All comes back to the Arena situation. If we can’t get something on that front solved, we are as good as cooked.
I think that if something comes about in terms of financing, we can have meaningful discussions with the league. Until then, the painful fight continues.
For the record, I would like this team to stay but am not hellbent on it. Free Agents come and go all the time. Big Unit left, A-Rod left, Griffey left, Payton was traded, and those teams still have fans.
Plus, with an expansion or new team if managed correctly, you should be able to be competitive within a couple of years. You start off with the first pick in the draft, and get a couple nice pieces through supplemental draft. An expansion team would not start off any worse than what we were this year or how Portland was three years ago.
I GUARANTEE a first year expansion team would win more games and be more fun to watch than the product on the floor this year.
Also, I would never say never when it comes to great players ever coming along again. Everyone says there will never be another Jordan or Durant, etc., but if we had Kobe or LeBron or Dwight Howard, I think we would get along just fine. Bottom line is great and entertaining basketball players have emerged and will continue to emerge.
April 22nd, 2008 at 9:54 am
sonicsman-I hope u’re right about KD. As long as he doesn’t resign with OKC he’ll be alright with me, even if he didn’t resign here(in your scenario). I like KD, and could root for him on any team except theirs. That said, I could see your scenario playing out & wouldn’t mind that, even though it’s far from guaranteed from a few different angles…
April 22nd, 2008 at 9:57 am
“I disagree. To keep the Sonics in Seattle is the Sonics fans goal. To keep the NBA in Seattle is the NBA fans goal. ”
Totally right Hambone. Unfortunately in Seattle there are more NBA fans than Sonics fans (until they start getting to the playoffs and see how things would change!!!)
April 22nd, 2008 at 10:00 am
I say double-down with a pair of fours and watch the dealer BUST. CHA-CHING.
April 22nd, 2008 at 10:00 am
Well said Kemp96, well said!
April 22nd, 2008 at 10:01 am
The end game in all of this is and always has been a new arena.
If there is no new arena in place by June 15th then Clay & Stern will call off the trial. It will be much easier for the NBA to absorb 2 years of financial losses in Seattle than to be dragged through the mud in a trial. Stern has already stated that the NBA will stand by Clay and absorb the financial losses with him. All they have to do is state that they will honor the lease. The court case goes away. 2 lame duck seasons in Seattle only bothers impatient OKC people. It does not bother the NBA or
Stern.
April 22nd, 2008 at 10:02 am
My point somewhat being, I love Kevin Durant, but I had no idea who he was four years ago. Just like I’m sure there is some young phenom out there that most people have no idea about and people will be raving about him in four years.
With the money / prestige that the NBA presents itself to teenagers, it is guaranteed to motivate young players to become great / entertaining, meaning that someone new is almost guaranteed to come along.
Everyone is excited about the possibility on Rose / Beasley, but I would say 85% of the basketball population had little idea who they were two years ago.
If an expansion / new team were to come about, I guarantee everyone would be excited watching college basketball the year before knowing we were going to get the best player available.
In this day in age of professional sports where players come and go all the time, it is just part of the business that 95% of the time a player will not play in one city for his whole career.
April 22nd, 2008 at 10:03 am
Vinny 100% agree with you.
April 22nd, 2008 at 10:04 am
“Ok, so while I love Rudy Gay and certainly think his future is bright, stealing the Grizz from Memphis to replace our stolen team is a horrible trend to continue.”
This trend will continue as long as teams are privately owned by billionaires. If cities owned pro-sports teams, or if teams were publicly traded on the stock market, this kind of thing wouldnt happen. But this is a trend that will continue as long as billionaires, who really have zero loyalty, continue to own sports franchises.
And to be honest, nobody really cares about the Grizzlies. They had worse attendance than we did in a much nicer arena, and with Stern’s whole policy of a “one sport market” (if you dont count the Titans who play in Nashville). They have never won a playoff series, and have only been in Memphis for 7 years.
April 22nd, 2008 at 10:05 am
Guys like Clay Bennett don’t take in to consideration the marketing and endorsements side. Guys like Durant will make more money in endorsements than their NBA salary so the market they are in is important. Kevin is more likely to be marketable and land his own shoe in Seattle than in OKC just like Gary Payton. Bennett will have a hard time landing big free agents in OKC and if he develops draft picks they are likely to leave after their rookie contract is up thus making OKC a average team. Average will not be good for the OKC market as they need big winning season to stay on the good side. Set aside your emotions and look at these aspects. Clay could get his payback in 10 years when the unlooked at aspects bite him in the ass!!!
April 22nd, 2008 at 10:08 am
I’ve posted this math months ago… and it seems even more likely now.
Move sonics to OKC gives NBA: 350mil (Clay), existing 5 year old ford center + 100mil upgrade, plus whatever other concessions Clay gets out of them… all adds up to $500mil into NBA business.
Piss off Seattle in the process which teaches all cities that you don’t mess with the NBA’s model. Stern even said so in his recent press conf: “Seattle could be like Charlott and bend over backwards to get a team back here…”
Sooner of later Seattle will come to the table with a package for a new team. This will be 450mil for the team, 150mil private contribution, 300 mil public money… which adds up to about 900mil into NBA business and bails them out from some poor situation in a current city.
Now why am I so unhappy giving them all this? Sure the current team and whole organization sucks and is unrecognizable from a true NBA team. But at least it would have avoided giving them everything and us nothing.
April 22nd, 2008 at 10:08 am
If the NBA really has the power to promise a new team wouldn’t that be logical to promise it to OKC ?
Seattle keeps a 41 years old team and OKC gets THEIR team.
Of course nothing is possible without an arena plan…
Personally I think I would not like an expansion team. The team that I love has drafted Green and Durant, as I don’t live in Seattle (not even close) I have no reason to like a new team there, even named Sonics.
This is only my initial reaction though, if this city really ends up losing THESE Sonics and getting a new Sonic team and somehow the team is great then maybe my passion would be back.
But damn I don’t want to face this scenario (even if it’s far from being the worst one)
April 22nd, 2008 at 10:08 am
Vinny, Stern and Bennett can’t call off the trial, they are the one’s being sued!!!
April 22nd, 2008 at 10:09 am
I maintain again that rooting for another team to relocate is NOT the answer.
The Grizzlies may not be as well supported, but there are bound to be a few thousand fans just as heartbroken as you guys are in Seattle. This is about something bigger here.
April 22nd, 2008 at 10:10 am
I don’t think the NBA looks backwards at all (ie leaving Seattle behind). Their thought process is, “Can the NBA be successful in Oklahoma City?”
Their answer is yes, and unfortunately that is all that matters to them.
Despite his sleezy efforts, Clay is prety damn close to accomplishing his goal within the next two years. I have a very difficult time seeing him walk away this far into it and this close to his goal.
Yeah there may be two lame duck years, but to the powers that be, that has basically zero impact on them. They don’t care about how we feel, and that is pretty evident.
To me, it is time to at least start talking to them to see if we can get some resolution, because if we play the tough guy act, 19 times out of 20 we will be without a team for a long time in two years, and the thought of having a team for the next forty one years is more important to me than watching Kevin Durant for the next eight.
Of course if there is no way to a new team, then stick to your guns and press forward with the trial, because that is all we have. Only way a settlement is reached is if a franchise is somehow guaranteed.
April 22nd, 2008 at 10:11 am
They are bieing sued to fulfill the lease.
If they state that they intend to fulfill the lease then the lawsuit becomes moot.
April 22nd, 2008 at 10:13 am
“Vinny, Stern and Bennett can’t call off the trial, they are the one’s being sued!!!”
They are being sued because they are trying to break the lease, but if they accept the lease the lawsuit would go away, otherwise your suing against nothing.
If I had a lease on a house and decided I was no longer going to pay it, and the owner of the property sued me as a result, he wouldnt continue to sue if I just grudginly accepted to stay through the lease, otherwise hes suing without any merit.
However, I think Bennett and Stern may realize, that despite taking heavy losses in those two years, it might be worth it vs. the alternative of being sued, having information creep up that the NBA wants to have concealed, and then having to stay in Seattle anyway.
April 22nd, 2008 at 10:13 am
Sonicsman -
1) Wouldn’t OKC have Bird rights on KD and get to match any offer the new Seattle could make? KD, GP, Goodwin have no say in him returning here. Satan would match any offer and keep him.
2) Would the NBA expand 1 team? Doubt it. They would need 2 to keep things balanced.
April 22nd, 2008 at 10:14 am
The whole being “OKAY” with not keeping these Sonics attitude disgusts me.
This isn’t about keeping the NBA in town. This is about keeping the Sonics in town. These Sonics.
SAVE OUR SONICS!
April 22nd, 2008 at 10:14 am
One option would be an eventual expansion team. Has there ever been a city that had to go through 3 expansion teams? We’ve had ours, now we are living through OKC’s expansion team… and we might get the “privilege” of living through another one in a few years.
We can all sing “The NBA, where endless expansion happens”
April 22nd, 2008 at 10:15 am
I was driving today and I think the biggest issue with the team guarantee thing is this statement:
is somewhat of a face saver for the league to retain the tradition, not have to realign divisions, not have to ask two groups of players to move
- I just don’t see how the league could realign to make a fare and equitable conference. Really, unless they pull out an existing franchise they would need to make 2 expansion teams with the most likely markets being: Seattle, KC and Las Vegas.
I just don’t see how you could make 8, 4 team divisions that made logistical sense for everyone….
April 22nd, 2008 at 10:16 am
Both sides are planting the seeds of negotiation right now. Stern himself said yesterday on Mike Tirico that, the first thing out of his mouth when asked about the NBA’s future in Seattle, was “it depends on how this ends”. No hemming or hawing, no angry threats, just simply it depends how it ends. That’s already a big change in rhetoric over what he’s said over the last few months.
Reading between the lines, Stern also carefully said that their goal is to have as many parties as happy as possible at the end of this move. And, he never ONCE said a renovated Key is out of the question last week. He was very careful to say that right now, the Key isn’t adequate for long-term NBA success. And, when pressed about a renovated Key, he really didn’t comment, mainly because there is no renovated Key proposal sitting there to consider in the first place! I would imagine a $300 million Key with Ballmer in tow would be an unbelievable situation for the league.
I am going to trust Slade. His track record speaks for itself. His efforts are one of the biggest reasons we have the M’s, both in the MLB lawsuit and then helping close the Nintendo ownership deal. He knows how strong or weak his case is, and he’s going to negotiate as such. We have no idea what cards he is holding right now. And because the NBA and Bennett have been talking settlement for the last few months now, you know that Brian is right, they want NOTHING to do with court! Slade will do the right thing.
April 22nd, 2008 at 10:18 am
“I don’t think the NBA looks backwards at all (ie leaving Seattle behind). Their thought process is, “Can the NBA be successful in Oklahoma City?”
If this is what the NBA is really after, basketball in Oklahoma City vs. basketball in Seattle, why doesnt a Seattle investing group purchase another team (Grizzlies or Hornets or Magic) and relocate them, forcing Clay to find a solution to stay in Seattle or sell.
Is this whole situation to Stern more about getting basketball in Oklahoma City, or is it more about not having basketball in Seattle.
If its the former, Shultz or Ballmer could save the Sonics by relocating another team before Clay could. If this is the precedent Stern is setting, then we could play the same game that Clay is right now.
April 22nd, 2008 at 10:21 am
I get the impression the league doesn’t care about basketball in Seattle, we’re worthless. Why would any of their negotiations include us keeping the current franchise or receiving another cities or an expansion franchise? You know what really sucks about all this; we loose the Sonics and keep the Storm. UGH!!! How annoying.
I don’t know what to think, I feel like Brain knows something we don’t in regards to settlements and receiving another NBA team, because I havn’t seen anything that says that is a possibility, in fact to the contrary the NBA has said they would not expand into Seattle if we loose the current Sonics..
God I hate the Storm. Smartest thing Clay ever did cutting that dead weight from the franchise.
April 22nd, 2008 at 10:24 am
DO NOT SETTLE!
April 22nd, 2008 at 10:25 am
double down. if this sonics team leaves i would never even consider watching the nba again
April 22nd, 2008 at 10:28 am
I don’t think anyghint the Okies do would cause the suit to be dropped.
The City is asking for three main things:
1) A declaratory judgment that the Lease is enforceable through specific performance.
2) An order that lease issues are not subject to arbitration.
3) Attorney’s fees.
IMO, the most important is (1). The PBC would not only have to rescind it’s desire to move, but ADMIT that the lease is enforcible through specific performance. This will give incredible teeth to EVERY OTHER NBA city that has a specific performance clause in it’s lease agreement; something the NBA wants to avoid.
April 22nd, 2008 at 10:30 am
Seattle, King County and Western Washington needs a new Arena. Gorton knows that his suit is fine up till the point that the owners are willing to eat two years. If this happens and they call off the suit and act on specific performance the NBA is dead in Seattle. It has been for the last ten years but that would be the nail. Gorton is correct get the politicos to get out of the way (waive sales taxes and use taxes on ECC) and build a new Arena (HS Memorial site) and this all goes away. The NBA will run to Seattle.
April 22nd, 2008 at 10:31 am
“Scott, do you even watch the games or do you go by what Sportscenter says.”
I think as one of the admin of this site, my level of fandom should totally be challenged.
“Durant is a stud, Green is a perfect compliment to him, and then add Rose or Beasley and keep Collison and Watson as a backup PG and you have a solid team already.”
Add Beasley and of the 5 players you mentioned you have two positions and your backup PG filled, congrats!
“Now ADD 5 MORE FIRST ROUND PICKS in the next 3 drafts plus tons of cap room for a top notch free agent.”
Except that first round picks are great, when you plan on working them in slowly or sucking. To win, you need vets. Cap space, yeah right.
April 22nd, 2008 at 10:31 am
Good night, has this become the Puget Sound Cliffjumping Squad? Calm the heck down, people.
The only way this settles is if NBA basketball is guaranteed, and the Sonics history, logos, etc. stays here. If the NBA is not interested in giving that up, then we’ll see them in court. WE have the leverage. There’s a reason the organization is called Save our Sonics, and not Destroy the NBA. If David Stern says “no way” to this, then Slade Gorton and the City prepare for war, and scorched earth will be in effect.
April 22nd, 2008 at 10:34 am
Honoring specific performance is not “scorched earth”, Bennett knew the deal when he bought the team.
April 22nd, 2008 at 10:34 am
I think everybody is forgetting if we get a expansion team the NBA makes it so that you cant get the #1 pick for like 4 years after you start playing! A new Sonics team wont be good until 2014 atleast. I think if the city settles we are playing right into bennetts and clays hands, because they will do anything not to go to trial. If we hold strong and say we are seeing this thru to the end then they will come to us for a solution not the other way around! Our best leverage to keep this current team is to fight until June then try to get Stern to convince clay we arent going away and to sell back to howard or the ballmer group and get an expansion team or memphis, hornets etc. I thought this was a SAVE OUR SONICS board not a get any other team just as long as we have a team board!
April 22nd, 2008 at 10:35 am
Keeping this team isn’t just about the players. It’s about stopping this cycle of teams moving on the whim of the League. It’s about the stopping the cycle of the League demanding new stadiums and holding city’s to ransom. It’s Seattle now but it could be any our City soon and it could be Seattle again another time
Getting an expansion team or stealing another city’s team just keeps the cycle going.
The NBA has to realise that it’s not the only entertainment out there. Most of my friends don’t give a crap about the NBA and have only given the League money cos I’ve dragged them to games. GTA IV releases next week. I bet it’ll have a significant impact on the number of people watching the playoffs
April 22nd, 2008 at 10:36 am
“Seattle, King County and Western Washington needs a new Arena. Gorton knows that his suit is fine up till the point that the owners are willing to eat two years. If this happens and they call off the suit and act on specific performance the NBA is dead in Seattle. It has been for the last ten years but that would be the nail. Gorton is correct get the politicos to get out of the way (waive sales taxes and use taxes on ECC) and build a new Arena (HS Memorial site) and this all goes away. The NBA will run to Seattle.” –JJLOV
Agree we are going to have to pony up for a new arena, but why does Seattle need to settle the suit with the NBA to get another team here? They are acting like such bullies in this situation and have NOTHING to offer us EXCEPT the current Sonics team.
Anything else offered by the NBA can be had WITHOUT their promises.
What is there to prevent some wealthy Seattle-based basketball fan from buying the next available team for sale and moving that team into a shiny new arena?
April 22nd, 2008 at 10:38 am
Scott, are you still defending your post that an expansion team will be good as fast as the current roster? WOW!
April 22nd, 2008 at 10:40 am
Why not negotiate to have OKC get the expansion team, and have Bennett sell to Balmer?
April 22nd, 2008 at 10:40 am
Before Charlotte their were 29 teams for quite a few years!!
April 22nd, 2008 at 10:42 am
The business people of Seattle will be willing to help to a point and the current offer is built on the assumption that an NBA team exists. Do not plan on having politicos and lawyers brokering a deal on the next available team. That could be years and as far as Memphis is concerned they stole the team from BC anyway. Art Thiel’s article is on point. The NBA will move to second tier cities that they can hold hostage until the foreign expansion takes place.
April 22nd, 2008 at 10:44 am
All or Nothing!! If we settle than clay and stern win! This is about fighting to the end and SAVING OUR SONICS! I would rather have no team at all then some other cities team or an expansion franchise that may never come, and if it does they wont make the playoffs until 2017!!! They are getting scared of the lawsuit and are trying to do anything so they dont have to put themselves or the other owners through the trial. Call their bluff and stay tough and never settle unless we keep THIS Sonics team not some other bs team!!
April 22nd, 2008 at 10:47 am
When I posted a couple of days ago that I’m in the ” #1 goal is to have an NBA team in Seattle for the longterm with local ownership” camp I was called a loser and a quitter.
Nice to see that I’m not the only “loser” that feels this way.
I’ve said recently that the strategy has to be to fight for the current team and play hardball, but at the end of the day a solution has to be found whether it’s the exact preferred one or something close.
The all or nothing approach is a rare thing in most bigtime negotiations. You have to at least be open to options to closing a deal.
As I said before, I would hate to see the good people of Seattle win the battle but lose the war, meaning two years and gone.
But I can certainly sympathize with anyone that says if this team leaves they won’t support a replacement team. I went through it with my Vancouver Grizzlies. But from experience I can say that time tends to make you think a little differently if you truly are a basketball fan and long for the day when you can go watch your team and be a supporter.
Scorched earth is exactly that. You can never return.
April 22nd, 2008 at 10:49 am
“I thought this was a SAVE OUR SONICS board not a get any other team just as long as we have a team board!” –SonicBoom
Me too man. Me too.
I think I was just really hurt by Brian’s comments this morning. (You are still a great guy in my book, Brian. We just disagree on how to go from here forward.)
Obviously I choose courtsense’s option A.
April 22nd, 2008 at 10:50 am
Maybe Ballmer could go buy the Cavs.
Move LeBron to Seattle.
April 22nd, 2008 at 10:56 am
The Pastor’s Ass
The pastor entered his donkey in a race and
it won.
The pastor was so pleased with the donkey
that he entered it in the race
again, and it won again.
The local paper read:
PASTOR’S ASS OUT FRONT.
The Bishop was so upset with this kind of
publicity that he ordered the
pastor not to enter the donkey in another race.
The next day, the local paper headline
read:
BISHOP SCRATCHES PASTOR’S ASS.
This was too much for the bishop, so he
ordered the pastor to get rid of the donkey.
The pastor decided to give it to a nun in a
nearby convent.
The local paper, hearing of the news, posted
the following headline the next day:
NUN HAS BEST ASS IN TOWN.
The bishop fainted.
He informed the nun that she would have to
get rid of the donkey, so sh e sold it to a farmer for $10.
The next day the paper read:
NUN SELLS ASS FOR $10.
This was too much for the bishop, so he
ordered the nun to buy back the
donkey and lead it to the plains where it could run
wild.
The next day the headlines read:
NUN ANNOUNCES HER ASS IS WILD AND FREE.
The bishop was buried the next day.
The moral of the story is . . . being
concerned about public opinion can bring you much grief and
misery . . even shorten your life.
So be yourself and enjoy life.
Stop worrying about everyone else’s ass and you’ll be a lot
happier and live longer!
April 22nd, 2008 at 11:01 am
Well Brian, it was worth a shot.
This forum has become overrun by scared little children that are huddling together and praying for some great lawyer in the sky to come down and save them all from evil.
I’m behind Gorton & the City’s efforts and desires to keep basketball in Seattle. I’m thinking long term. I want to take my future grandkids to Sonics games. If Seattle has to wait a few years for an expansion team, so be it. Perhaps a few of you will be able to wash the vile taste out of your mouths by then. Personally, a few year void to purge myself from all of this ugliness sounds somewhat appealing.
Question for the rest. How will you react when your future grandchilden ask you to take them to a game? What will you tell them?
April 22nd, 2008 at 11:03 am
Question for the rest. How will you react when your future grandchilden ask you to take them to a game? What will you tell them?
I will tell them that the NBA is not worthy of our time or money.
April 22nd, 2008 at 11:05 am
Who is going to pay for the arena? If the taxpayers want to fund a $500M arena then Clay Bennett would stay. Ballmer IS NOT going to give $150M for an arena that some other guy operates his business out of. Shinn, Heisley or Bennett might move their teams to Seattle but they would not sell. In a new building with the #12 market their teams would do well. So, a settlement just lets Stern and Bennett off the hook. Seattle will be right back in the soup but with no local owner on our side. We gain nothing from a settlement.
Mitch has not been on our side from the beginning. He is an idiot.
April 22nd, 2008 at 11:06 am
I’ll tell me grandchildren to never, NEVER love anything that isn’t capable of loving you back, that most definitely includes professional sports. The best example of how soulless it all is is found in the NBA and our current situation.
April 22nd, 2008 at 11:07 am
Haha, I’m not a pirate BTW, correction; I’ll tell MY grandchildren.
April 22nd, 2008 at 11:10 am
I wonder why Bill Gates has never stepped into try and keep the Sonics in Seattle. He has enough money he could probably buy the entire NBA, and I know he’s heavily involved with putting his money to actual important initiatives for Washington state and the world (lots of money goes to education, Gates foundation), but hes a Seattlite through and through. Even with all his money, he chooses to reside in Seattle. I know Ballmer’s net worth is considerably larger than most NBA owners already, but Gates could provide just a small portion of his money to continue a Seattle legacy….
April 22nd, 2008 at 11:14 am
I think everybody is forgetting if we get a expansion team the NBA makes it so that you cant get the #1 pick for like 4 years after you start playing! A new Sonics team wont be good until 2014 atleast.
- This is without a doubt, completely untrue. The NBA practically bends over backwards to make an expansion team competitive as quickly as possible. Just because the Hornets are run by cheap (Bob Johnson) idiots (sadly Michael Jordan and Bernie Bickerstaff) does not some how prove your point.
Simply put you can look at the drafts since Charlotte has come into the league and see that if they had been smart/even the slightest bit lucky their team could’ve been:
PG: Chris Paul
SG: Brandon Roy
SF: Danny Granger
PF: Brandan Wright/Joakim Noah
C: Dwight Howard
Ya…that’s not a good team at all. They probably wouldn’t even be in the playoffs. This doesn’t even take into account the fact that they’d have tons of cap space so they could’ve either traded for a top veteran or made a big FA signing.
So please stop with this nonsense about an expansion team being destined to fail.
April 22nd, 2008 at 11:15 am
“This forum has become overrun by scared little children…” True to your pseudonym, Dick. (please laugh at that)
“How will you react when your future grandchilden ask you to take them to a game? What will you tell them?”
I’ll say: Make sure to wear warm clothes kids. It’s mighty cold at Seahawks games!
Seriously though, I don’t see how settlement brings us a team any faster than not settling. Either way, we need a new stadium and will have to wait a few years.
So why the rush to roll over?
April 22nd, 2008 at 11:16 am
I wonder why Bill Gates has never stepped into try and keep the Sonics in Seattle. He has enough money he could probably buy the entire NBA, and I know he’s heavily involved with putting his money to actual important initiatives for Washington state and the world (lots of money goes to education, Gates foundation), but hes a Seattlite through and through. Even with all his money, he chooses to reside in Seattle. I know Ballmer’s net worth is considerably larger than most NBA owners already, but Gates could provide just a small portion of his money to continue a Seattle legacy….
- Because Bill Gates does not believe that spending money on a basketball team is a worthy venture, which is completely in his rights to do so.
Many would argue that the fact he wouldn’t buy an NBA team is just another example of why he is so rich in the first place…
April 22nd, 2008 at 11:16 am
Bill Gates is focused more on combating public health problems in Africa. His foudation is basically single-handedly funding public health efforts across the African continent.
If anything trumps the NBA and keeping the Sonics in Seattle, seeking eliminate AIDS in Africa with almost no help from the US Gov and President Bush is it.
Plus, has Gates ever expressed an interest in pro basketball? I don’t think so…
April 22nd, 2008 at 11:17 am
Does anyone think that if the City were offered a buyout of $50-$75mm, A guaranteed franchise in 2010 or 2011, a remodeled Key Arena, and the Ballmer group as the owner, that they would turn it down? Seriously?
Not sure if that offer will come, but if it does, they would be crazy not to take it. That doesn’t mean that is the first offer you make to the NBA, but if that is the end result, I would say the city was sucessful.
And just because everyone is saying expansion is not a possibility right now doesn’t mean that circumstances won’t change or can’t change.
And for the record I agree with Scott that it will take a franchise team the same amount of time to become competitive as it will this one. Hard to be much worse than this team was this year. And just because the team has 5 first round picks does not guarantee anything. I can remember a lot of first round draft pick busts, not to mention that Presti already punted away Carl Landry and Glen Davis.
April 22nd, 2008 at 11:17 am
Bill Gates has more important things he contributes his money to. He’s the last person that needs to be looked at to step in and contribute. How about Shultz contribute, he’s yet to actually file his lawsuit, he could have step in a said I’ll contribute the other $75 million …its becoming apparent the threat of hte lawsuit was jsut that, a threat.
April 22nd, 2008 at 11:18 am
BTW, to all you dustbowl degenerates reading this; FUKC YOU!
April 22nd, 2008 at 11:23 am
“Scott, are you still defending your post that an expansion team will be good as fast as the current roster? WOW”
Sorry, dipshit I had to do this thing called work, came back 2 hours later, wrote a sentence and hit send.
If you wanna really stay around here, quit being a dipshit, you can be gone.
April 22nd, 2008 at 11:24 am
Plus, has Gates ever expressed an interest in pro basketball? I don’t think so…
- Gates has actually expressed that he is absolutely NOT interested in owning a team. This was back when the Mariners were for sale.
One could wonder if him getting into the NBA would allow him to leverage their expansion into Africa and Asia to support his charitable causes. However, he is a much smarter guy then I will ever be so I’ll assume he;s already considered that and decided it wouldn’t be helpful.
April 22nd, 2008 at 11:26 am
IF the city accepts a buyout, I will proceed to back the Trailblazers unrelentlessly.
At least Paul Allen will have stuck up for us, even if our city and state leaders failed us.
IF the city accepts a buyout, that is. Hopefully they don’t.
SAVE THESE SONICS!
April 22nd, 2008 at 11:27 am
Like I said on Mar 15….
I went to the Minnesota game by myself and got there an hour early so I had time to just sit and think about things.
Part 1 - Can I support another team called the Sonics?
I think I may have to back off my previous statement just a little bit. I do think that THIS Sonics team could be gone but I will back off a little on my feelings of a replacement team that comes with the Sonics history, colors, records, etc.
I was looking over the roster and it really hit me that when it comes down to it I really don’t have any attachment to this team. Of course I like the future of Durant and Green but really the only person that comes close to an emotional/sentimental attachment right now is Collison and even he is not that much. If this had happened during the Payton/Kemp years I would have been sick. They are the reason I first got season tickets in 1993. I liked Ray a lot but he wasn’t really an anchor for me.
I couldn’t care less about the coaches, staff, ownership of the team.
So taking all of the above into consideration why do I care about this team? The only thing about this team that MEANS something to me is the history.
What do we lose if we get another team but keep our history?
- the future of Durant and Green
- at least one high lottery pick
- gobs of good draft pics
- Clay Bennett
- Presti
All of that sucks except the Bennett thing. Presti remains to be seen but so far so good.
What do we keep if we get a new team and our history?
- GP in the rafters along with the others
- 1979 Championship trophy/banner
- Colors, logos, records, banners
- Kevin Calabro
- the thieving, black mailing NBA and Stern
All of that is great except for the NBA and Stern.
Will we get a new team? I doubt it. We’d still have to do an arena deal and if these “leaders” wouldn’t do one for the team we already had do you really think they would do one for NO team in the hopes of luring another team? I don’t think they will. Do you see this states leaders and voters approving a new/renewed arena just to sit there for years like Kansas City or OKC did? As it is now, they kept saying ” doesn’t even have a team so why do this?”
In the end it comes down to supporting the NBA again after they heartlessly ripped away OUR Sonics with no repercussions. I’m not sure I can or will be able to do it but I do hope that I have a chance to either re-up my season tickets or flip a large bird to the NBA.
Part 2 - My wish list (remember I’m bitter and I hate to lose)
Assuming THESE Sonics are gone this is my wish list.
- Durant/Green walk away from OKC at the first contractural opportunity -or- they are major busts
- Presti gets Wally Walker disease and blows all the draft picks coming up
- OKC loses out on every big named or big gamed free agent because nobody wants to go there
- OKC never has a winning season and becomes the old-time Clippers (the punch line of many jokes)
- The Okie fans get to suffer this same fate when they fail in a few years. They can thank their ‘hero’ Clay who already has exit plans.
- There is a massive sweep out of Seattle/WA “leaders” who failed this issue. For every election day until this task is complete I’d like all voters to wear they Sonics green and gold to go vote.
- A mass of people do boycott the NBA, advertisers, etc. May it be like MLB and those people never come back.
- The rest I must keep to myself as they aren’t very kind at best.
Assuming the NEW Sonics come to Seattle and I care.
- Colors, logos, history, etc. all come with it
- Somehow they keep the season ticket holder list so that the season ticket holders of today get to come back with at least their current priority number so we don’t have to start all over again (assuming they would want to come back). Would be nice to get our seats back too.
- The new owners ban all those who failed from attending games. If they can ban a rowdy fan from the games they can ban anyone. (hey, like I said, my WISH list)
- New Sonics never lose a game to OKC (in the few years they exist)
April 22nd, 2008 at 11:27 am
“So please stop with this nonsense about an expansion team being destined to fail.”
You forgot LaMarcus Aldridge, but I digress:)
Basically Charlotte is the poster boy for why expansion teams can’t win, but they’ve been ineptly run from the begining. Drafting everyone from UNC isn’t going to make you a great team, too bad they didn’t see that.
My point all along isn’t that an expansion team would be better than what we have now, just that it couldn’t be much worse. We are the 29th worst team in the league….41 years after we started.
April 22nd, 2008 at 11:29 am
- This is without a doubt, completely untrue. The NBA practically bends over backwards to make an expansion team competitive as quickly as possible. Just because the Hornets are run by cheap (Bob Johnson) idiots (sadly Michael Jordan and Bernie Bickerstaff) does not some how prove your point.
Your point is untrue not mine Myk!! Look at what happened when the Bobcats had their expansion team in 2004—– The advantage will not end there. The Bobcats own the fourth selection – the highest-ever pick by an expansion franchise – in the 2004 NBA Draft. In 1995, the Grizzlies selected sixth and the Raptors followed in the seventh position, while in 1988, Charlotte had the eighth pick and Miami followed at number nine. The expansion franchises in 1989 had an even longer wait as Minnesota chose 10th and Orlando selected 11th. SO tell me how i was wrong on this???? THE HIGHEST EVER PICK BY A EXPANSION TEAM WAS #4!
April 22nd, 2008 at 11:29 am
“IF the city accepts a buyout, I will proceed to back the Trailblazers unrelentlessly”.
From where I sit, this makes you about the biggest loser in the world. If the league abandon’s this market (which is the outcome of the strategy you seem to be favoring) I’m done with the whole damn league forever.
April 22nd, 2008 at 11:31 am
You forgot LaMarcus Aldridge, but I digress:)
- Well you either get Aldridge/Tyrus Thomas or BRoy…its really your pick. Its just as concieveable you could have:
G: Paul
G: Thaddeus Young
SF: Granger
PF: Aldridge
C: Howard
All in all the only thing that matters is that you could easily have two of the top 5 or 6 players in the league on your team for the next 15 years
April 22nd, 2008 at 11:35 am
What is looks like to me, now. The question for Bennett and Ballmer is how much money do they want to spend in relocation fees, 30 million for moving 1 team, 60 million for moving 2 teams.
Plan 1 involves:
A. A team called the Sonics will be here in 2010-11, and on. Bennett said he will rename and recolor his team to the OKC market. Go over the Name/Color/history leaving, he does not want it, never did.
B. At least one other team is moving out of a market that can not support the NBA (pick one). There are worse situation than Seattle, the lease ends in 2010, other places either have a lease that goes on, and on without the city or team wanting the lease to go on, and on; or they do not have long term corperate and fan support that can generate revenue.
C. A local owner can agree in principal, in private, to buy a given team that the league wants to move.
C.1. A local owner can say that he would prefer a refurb Key Arena. The commissioner has the authority to determine what is an acceptable venue (it is buried in the relocation exhibits on kingtv.com). As Key Arena is NOW it is unaccepteble to the league, it will always be unacceptable to Bennett, it has been and will be acceptable to a local owner. The Key must have a funded plan for refurb before the court case or the commish can just say no and drag his feet.
D. A team is going to OKC, when it gets there is will have a different color/name and no acknowledgement of its history (if it has one).
E. The state has to have a special session, it has to know that there is a promise (Ballmer has a team purchase agreement, double secret), and it all has to happen in 7 weeks time.
Step “F”. Good luck with that everybody.
Plan 2 involves:
A. Plan 1 fails.
B. A team called the Sonics will be here some day. Bennett said he will rename and recolor his team to the OKC market. Go over the Name/Color/history leaving, he does not want it, never did.
C. At least one other team is moving out of a market that can not support the NBA (pick one). There are worse situation than Seattle, the lease ends in 2010, other places either have a lease that goes on, and on without the city or team wanting the lease to go on, and on; or they do not have long term corperate and fan support that can generate revenue.
D. A local owner can agree in principal, in private, to buy a given team that the league wants to move.
D.1. A local owner can say that he would prefer a refurb Key Arena. The commissioner has the authority to determine what is an acceptable venue (it is buried in the relocation exhibits on kingtv.com). As Key Arena is NOW it is unaccepteble to the league, it will always be unacceptable to Bennett, it has been and will be acceptable to a local owner. The Key refurb is shot down after the court case and the commish can just say no and drag his feet.
E. Howard acts to take the Sonics back.
Step “F”. Back to plan 1, less timetable for basketball after 2010.
April 22nd, 2008 at 11:35 am
HOW EXPANSION RULES WORK INCLUDING DRAFTS, FREE AGENts ECT——Following is a summary of the expansion draft rules for Charlotte Bobcats 2004:
A. Player Selection
* The Bobcats will select a minimum of 14 players who are under contract or restricted free agents for the 2004-05 season.
* The Bobcats may select no more than one player from each team.
* The Bobcats can only select players that are left unprotected by an NBA team.
* Each of the 29 NBA teams may protect a maximum of eight players on its roster who are under contract or are restricted free agents at the conclusion of the 2003-04 season.
* Each of the 29 NBA teams will designate the players on its roster who are eligible for selection by the Bobcats.
* Each of the 29 NBA teams must designate at least one player on its roster to be eligible for selection by the Bobcats, even if the team does not have eight players under contract or as restricted free agents for the 2004-05 season.
* Any player under contract selected by the Bobcats will immediately be placed on the Bobcats roster.
* Any eligible restricted free agent selected by the Bobcats shall immediately become an unrestricted free agent.
* Unrestricted free agents are not eligible to be protected nor are they eligible to be selected by the Bobcats.
B. Pre-Expansion Draft Trades
* Teams will be permitted to enter into pre-Expansion Draft trades in which Charlotte agrees to select or not select certain unprotected players.
C. Salary Cap
* Charlotte will be permitted to select players in the Expansion Draft without regard to the Salary Ca
* Charlotte will have a Salary Cap in its first season equal to 66% of the Salary Cap applicable to the rest of the league and a Salary Cap in its second season equal to 75% of the Salary Cap applicable to the rest of the league.
* Charlotte will be permitted to sign any restricted free agent it selects in the Expansion Draft using the same “Bird,” “ Early Bird” or “Non-Bird” Exception that the player’s prior team would have had.
* Compensation paid to a selected player under a contract protected for lack of skill will be excluded from Charlotte’s Team Salary if the player’s contract is terminated (via the waiver procedure) prior to the start of the 2004-05 season.
* A team with a Team Salary above the Salary Cap will receive a Trade Exception to replace a player (other than a restricted free agent) selected from its unprotected list.
D. Post-Expansion Draft Transactions
* A team will not be permitted to reacquire a player that it loses in the Expansion Draft prior to the expiration of one year from the date of the Expansion Draft, unless the player is waived and not claimed by any other team.
SORRY NO DEAL—-Save OUR Sonics!!
April 22nd, 2008 at 11:36 am
When a city is dissed by a sports league the fans do no come back. This is the lesson we should have learned from the Mariners, the Bobcats and the Hornets. Once the team leaves the fan and business support is harmed for a very long time. The replacement team is then in the difficult position of needing to constantly trim payroll to survive.
April 22nd, 2008 at 11:36 am
Your point is untrue not mine Myk!! Look at what happened when the Bobcats had their expansion team in 2004—– The advantage will not end there. The Bobcats own the fourth selection – the highest-ever pick by an expansion franchise – in the 2004 NBA Draft. In 1995, the Grizzlies selected sixth and the Raptors followed in the seventh position, while in 1988, Charlotte had the eighth pick and Miami followed at number nine. The expansion franchises in 1989 had an even longer wait as Minnesota chose 10th and Orlando selected 11th. SO tell me how i was wrong on this???? THE HIGHEST EVER PICK BY A EXPANSION TEAM WAS #4!
- Umm did you like read the rest of my post proving that your point that an expansion team cant compete is just a big buch of BS??
BTW, lets look back at some history. Since 1994 the Sonics have been to one WCF and had one finals appearance. As for the “recent” expansion teams:
Minnesota: One WCF
Toronto: One ECF
Vancouver/Memphis: None
Orlando: One ECF / One Finals
Miami: ??? ECF / One NBA Championship
Charlotte: None
Yup…it really isn’t possible to be successful as an expansion franchise. What you aren’t getting is that being an expansion franchise has nothing to do with success…being smart and lucky is what has to do with success. You can be just as dumb with a team that has 40 years of history as one with 4 years of history.
April 22nd, 2008 at 11:36 am
There are like 3 guys on this team from 3 years ago.
I am by no means giving up. We’ve drawn our hard line. We’ve proven we won’t budge on the litigation or made anything easy. At some point conversation has to begin and it has to begin somewhere My strong, strong perference is to keep this crew but my loyalty is to the green and gold. I switched loyalty from GP to Ray, from Rashard to Kevin Durant and frankly I now totally understand that players are a movable piece. It is much harder now than it was 10 years ago to give myself completely to a group of players. They can all move along the road and I know it. I’m not going to risk sacrificing the cities NBA future over loyalty to Jeff Green and the 3 years remaining on his contract. For all I know he’ll be traded on draft day.
I broached this question with someone and it is probably a harder sell for me than for a lot of people. I know a TON of the people on the Sonics staff. I feel for a lot of them and the pain they have gone through. I think they could all be re-hired by a new ownership group. There are also people on the team who have been part of this whole process either actively or at least passively because they stood here through this and couldn’t/didn’t do squat. How are we supposed to feel about the employees who didn’t donate a dime or make any effort to help the cause? The people that went with the flow. On one hand I am sympathetic but on the other I don’t know that I feel the same loyalty to them I once did. I totally feel that this organization is to some extent poisoned by the experience. I think the reclamaimation is almost harder than a fresh start.
Imagine this. Imagine Clay sells tomorrow and Steve Ballmer owns the team. He takes a fan forum and says “This is the deal: I’m trying to decide between a fresh start and continuety. We think we can either fire everyone on the entire staff and start anew, or we can keep everybody and go with the flow. Thats everybody from marketing to ticket sales, front office, coaches, etc. Everyone except the players. What is your choice? Do you want the same marketing people or a fresh start? Do you want PJ Carlissimo or a new staff? There is no in between you either take Clays people or new people. What would work better for you?”
I hate to say this to all my friends at the Sonics but I would take a fresh start. This is all poisoned that much to me. I think many of the people there would benefit from the fresh start more than they know. Those who didn’t could find their way back at a later date.
Where would you stand? I like Presti but not that much, he’s Clays guy as are a lot of other people in that office. Everybody who has said “I think Clay made a real effort” or stood there while it was said is in some ways suspect to me. I really don’t want a part of it any longer.
My loyalty is to my city, the game, and the colors. The rest are just interchangable parts. If the league pulls this crap and moves then I’ll give up on loyalty to the game.
Fighting the good fight does not mean holding on for dear life. Understanding that you have to negotiate somewhere is not the same as giving up. I’m not even expressing an SOS official thought. This is just me plain and simple. I’m not taking options off the table at this point.
April 22nd, 2008 at 11:37 am
Use of the word dipshit will get you banned. Stop it.
April 22nd, 2008 at 11:37 am
When a city is dissed by a sports league the fans do no come back. This is the lesson we should have learned from the Mariners, the Bobcats and the Hornets. Once the team leaves the fan and business support is harmed for a very long time. The replacement team is then in the difficult position of needing to constantly trim payroll to survive.
- No team is popular these days until they have the first great run deep into the playoffs. Once Charlotte become a contender or Memphis and get to a Finals they will be plenty popular.
April 22nd, 2008 at 11:40 am
SORRY NO DEAL—-Save OUR Sonics!!
- So again…you are saying that you wouldn’t want a team with two of the best players in the league??
April 22nd, 2008 at 11:40 am
Scott - I’d feel a lot better backing Portland’s (Seattle’s) Paul Allen, Martell Webster, and Brandon Roy than supporting a new STOLEN franchise from Memphis, Sacramento, New Orleans, wherever else, or a collection of expansion throw-aways.
But that’s just me. Its these Sonics or bust - end of story.
SOS = SAVE OUR SONICS, not SELL OUR SONICS.
April 22nd, 2008 at 11:41 am
Clint Says:
“Bill Gates is focused more on combating public health problems in Africa. His foudation is basically single-handedly funding public health efforts across the African continent.
If anything trumps the NBA and keeping the Sonics in Seattle, seeking eliminate AIDS in Africa with almost no help from the US Gov and President Bush is it.”
Not to mention Bush has outspent every other government on AIDs help to Afrika.
April 22nd, 2008 at 11:44 am
This whole comments thread makes it sounds like people are panicking. Everybody needs to relax, take a deep breath, and re-read Brian’s post.
He’s not saying we should sell out, or roll over for Bennett or Stern, or steal another city’s team. He’s advocating a pragmatic approach where we don’t spout hatred and invective, but actually *use* some of the leverage we have.
His point is good. We can continue to keep punching and not accept anything but keeping this team, and we’ll have a puncher’s chance. It’s not a great chance, but a chance.
Or we can use the leverage we have while we have it - and that approach might also lead to us keeping the team. The difference is that the consolation prize is a lot nicer.
It’s just a set of trade-offs.
The easiest emotion here is hatred and anger. I know because I’m so angry and everybody involved that I just can’t speak. The most satisfying thing in the world would be to force Stern and Bennett to bend to our will. But there is a more pragmatic path - a path that might be more likely to keep Sonics basketball (perhaps with a different roster, but Sonics basketball) here.
I get that people like what this roster can be. I do too. But at the end of the day, I don’t root for the players, I root for the laundry. Players turn over all the time in the NBA anyway. How many players are still on the roster from five years ago? Rejecting the idea of getting another team called the Sonics just because you like the current players is as short-sighted as the people who don’t want to keep the Sonics because their win-loss record in 2007-2008 was poor.
I want this team here too. My fandom would take a hit if it was replaced by another roster named “Sonics.” But at the end of the day, six years from now, I could take my nine-year-old daughter to a Sonics game, maybe watch some playoffs, get excited about roster moves, and scream at the TV.
I’m not saying we should do it - I’m just saying it’s a smart path, and we shouldn’t vilify Brian or Slade Gorton for daring to suggest that the time to negotiate is now while we still have leverage. If the negotiation goes well enough, maybe we keep our team. If it doesn’t go well enough, then we’re back to square one anyway and can go back to bare-knuckle fighting.
The key thing here that should get lost is the fact that for anything good to happen, we need an arena deal. Without that, we have no chance of getting anything we want.
April 22nd, 2008 at 11:45 am
If you are an Insider you can read this article on how the Bobcats could’ve used their expansion status to generate a ton of cap space and get free first round picks.
http://proxy.espn.go.com/nba/columns/story?columnist=ford_chad&id=1821972
Honestly, you simply don’t know what you are talking about…
April 22nd, 2008 at 11:46 am
Myk - sorry, but you’re flawed.
As a team gets better, its chances of landing a high draft pick dimishes significantly. Your what-ifs are totally worthless, as it is highly unlikely any team would suck bad enough with all the great players you named year after year in order to keep getting high draft picks. Plus, if those named players didn’t start out with shitty teams and have to carry big loads, would they have developed to their same potential?
KD will be lightyears ahead of this draft class because he of what he experienced (and will experience) being the marked man on the court every possession. The Sonics sucking has accelerated his growth as a player, and can be seen in his end of season production.
April 22nd, 2008 at 11:46 am
Myk:
So again…you are saying that you wouldn’t want a team with two of the best players in the league??
what team did your plan have bringing in here? (I don’t think I saw it)
April 22nd, 2008 at 11:46 am
Scott, you are starting to act like Stern and Clay Clay. Too much power buddy? I think Hambone has a right to post what he wants. By the way. OKC with Durant, Green, Rose/Beasley+5 more first round picks will be winners before we even get a team. Who cares though because I am done with the NBA.
April 22nd, 2008 at 11:47 am
Scott - I’d feel a lot better backing Portland’s (Seattle’s) Paul Allen, Martell Webster, and Brandon Roy than supporting a new STOLEN franchise from Memphis, Sacramento, New Orleans, wherever else, or a collection of expansion throw-aways.
But that’s just me. Its these Sonics or bust - end of story.
SOS = SAVE OUR SONICS, not SELL OUR SONICS.
- How can a true Sonics fan ever root for the Blazers…that just doesn’t make any sense.
April 22nd, 2008 at 11:47 am
The Sonics suck bad enough to get all those high picks…
April 22nd, 2008 at 11:47 am
I meant, “The key thing here that *shouldn’t* get lost …”
And of course Brian summed it up better than I did up above.
Oh, well. Back to work.
April 22nd, 2008 at 11:50 am
TukwilaSonic - Show me the non-FoxNews numbers on Bush’s spending.
Don’t omit the $3 billion a month he blows on a worthless Iraq conquest, er, nu-Vietnam.
April 22nd, 2008 at 11:50 am
As a team gets better, its chances of landing a high draft pick dimishes significantly. Your what-ifs are totally worthless, as it is highly unlikely any team would suck bad enough with all the great players you named year after year in order to keep getting high draft picks. Plus, if those named players didn’t start out with shitty teams and have to carry big loads, would they have developed to their same potential?
- So….ummm my argument is flawed because the team would be too good to get the players that I outlined…hmmm, that just seems to prove my argument even better. The team will either have a ton of young talent or they would be good…which part is bad??
what team did your plan have bringing in here? (I don’t think I saw it)
- Im proving that being an expansion team does not force you to have a bad team…the only thing that forces you to suck is if you have an inept GM/Owner/Coach…and as we’ve seen in Seattle…that is something ALL teams have to deal with.
April 22nd, 2008 at 11:51 am
I’ve put a lot of thought into what a team really is. Is it the players, the organization, the history, or the fans. It got’s to be a combination of these items.
So would a replaement team be alright with me as long as it was still called the Sonics and claimed the Sonics history. Tough question. I still don’t know the answer. I do know that I do not think Seattle should be blackmailed into upgrading the Key by removing our team. On a gut level I think we should diplomatically tell the NBA to shove it. If not the NBA will keep doing this in other cities. Of course they probably will continue to threaten to move away from cities as long as there is money to be made in new cities.
I think Brian R. brings up a good point about the current organization. Personally I think that if this team were to remain I would want everyone relatively high up in the organization fired. Especially Sam Presti. I don’t believe for a second that Clay didn’t let him know his plan.
April 22nd, 2008 at 11:51 am
Yup…it really isn’t possible to be successful as an expansion franchise. What you aren’t getting is that being an expansion franchise has nothing to do with success…being smart and lucky is what has to do with success. You can be just as dumb with a team that has 40 years of history as one with 4 years of history.
I didnt say you can be a success as an expansion team, but it takes years, and luck! I mean look at the past #2 picks like Darko for instance or #1 picks that were bad like Joe smith, bargnani etc. We got a huge break with being bad when Durant came out and it looks like the same this year with rose or beasley, but that isnt something we can count on 5 years down the road. I mean clay gets to buy the team, dismantle it so we are terrible, hire a terrible coach to guarantee their crappy and fan apathy, take them to okla city and watch Durant become a 1st team all NBA for years to come and we get our team colors and history?????Thats the least the NBA can do for Seattle as far as im concerned, plus, clay doesnt even want them so what are we actually getting inthe negotiations???
April 22nd, 2008 at 11:51 am
For those that think we should let the sonics go, with a promise for another team, Shouldn’t we be pulling for Memphis to get the #1 pick? Are they not considered the most likely to leave?
April 22nd, 2008 at 11:51 am
How can a true Sonics fan root for a buyout and losing the Sonics?
You guys are getting P-Iish on me.
April 22nd, 2008 at 11:52 am
Think about it. My # 1 goal is to keep the NBA in Seattle. I know you guys want KD and JG, but sport’s players hardly ever stay with one team their whole career and I would be surprised if he would stay in OKC long. Besides there will be players that are just as good as KD in the future that we might possibly nab. Think about it, we can get our revenge by playing the OKC Carpetbaggers and we tell Bennett how feel about him during the game.
April 22nd, 2008 at 11:53 am
Scott said- ” “How quickly can an expansion team be competitive?”
About as quickly as this team can.”
I said- “Scott, are you still defending your post that an expansion team will be good as fast as the current roster? WOW”
Scott replied- “Sorry, dipshit I had to do this thing called work, came back 2 hours later, wrote a sentence and hit send.
If you wanna really stay around here, quit being a dipshit, you can be gone.”
I just fundamentally disagree with your assertion that an expansion team can be good as quickly as the current Sonics team. This team already has a good nucleus of players (KD, JG, NC, even EW). An expansion team will get everybody else’s scrubs and a nice draft pick. Expansion could be ready in 2 seasons at the earliest. By then the Sonics will have added another top 5 pick. So, even if the Seattle Expansion Team begins play in time for the 2009-2010 season, the OKC Raiders will be Rockin tha house with their sweet nucleus.
Obviously an expansion team will take much more time to be good than the current Sonics roster plus accumulated draft picks.
So ban me, if you must. I know you’re an admin.
But the record will show that you, sir, were the first to resort to name calling. So if it’s the policy of the site to call people who disagree with you names, and then ban them, count me out anyway. You would be running this thing just like Stern, and I wouldn’t even want to be a part of it. Fortunately I think that is not the case.
April 22nd, 2008 at 11:53 am
“By the way. OKC with Durant, Green, Rose/Beasley+5 more first round picks will be winners before we even get a team.”
They will. Durant + Green was good for 19 wins. 3 of those 5 other first round picks will be mid to late #1’s at best and if the trio you’re stating is as good as you think they are then all five of those picks will be out of the lottery as well.
Just in enough time for Durant and Green to leave, because they don’t want to play in OKC.
April 22nd, 2008 at 11:53 am
I didn’t find Scott’s original post…but I would imagine that the jist of the post is that what is the big difference between an expansion team and this team we watched this year.
KD is good…but we also have a bunch of shitty players with shitty contracts. An expansion team can do just as well as our team did this year and we wouldn’t have to deal with all these salary dumps to “create cap space”….
Think about it…no more arguments about Earl Watson or Luke Ridnour and the fact that their contracts run for two more years. No more trying to figure out what to do with Damien Wilkins.
An expansion team has just as many benefits as this team.
April 22nd, 2008 at 11:54 am
Thanks for the support Hafner. I am not throwing in the towel, not even close. However people who want the 2 year slugfest VS the negotiated settlement better realize that they are betting with my time and energy. Get on board and start putting in 30 hours a week if you want to be hardliners.
I really, really believe that at the end of the day if we negotiate from a position of strength but with an open mind we likely wind up keeping this organization. It is easier and makes more sense. If we start moving towards a path of “making sense” then eventually it will come to be. If we never get on that path then the risk of a stalemate in which everyone loses is increased.
The problem is Bennetts attachment to this roster and he will have to realize at some point that this whole experience has soured the roster. The guys don’t like him. I don’t expect any of them would re-sign with him when there is both the small market factor and the snake in the grass factor. Do you think Durant enjoyed having Wally Z traded? I don’t. He shouldn’t be happy with this whole move and of all the “big stars” that are going to be targetted by markets like LA, NY, and the other warm weather climates he is going to be the guy who will jump from OKC. Teams will be lining up for him.
If the discussion starts about ways to get basketball in both OKC and Seattle then it can lead back to keeping this team here. I am totally unwilling to block the start of that conversation by not keeping an open mind to the options.
April 22nd, 2008 at 11:55 am
IF there is no other way to go and a replacement is going to negotiated I don’t think a fair buyout is just $75m, team history, replacement team.
To me that is not enough. There needs to be some kind of serious ‘hurt’ on the NBA, OKC the city, and Clay & Co. SUBSTANTIAL HURT. We deserve that for having our 41 years shat upon.
Negotiations mean that both sides win a little and both sides take it up the rear a little. So far the only settlement I’ve heard of has NBA/CLAY winning 90% and us taking it up the rear 90%.
What is Substantial? I don’t know. Brainstorm. “Ask for the world” to end this thing if that is your position.
I jokingly brainstormed the following post back in March…
——
If the NBA is willing to make this a fair trade (not $$ fair, but fair as in serious reparations for them taking our team) then I’d consider a new team.
What is fair? I don’t think giving Clay the Sonics and Seattle the history and a new team is enough. Seattle the city and we the fans deserve something on top of that for losing our 41 year investment.
A fair trade to me would be something like this…
Clay, OKC and NBA gets:
This team, these coaches, office staff, dunking ushers, boom squad, forum whiners (apostle, pittssteelersguy, etc).
Seattle and the fans get:
Expansion team (we’re not OKC a-holes willing to rob another city for a retread), guaranteed in writing (by everyone under the sun - Stern, his little dog toto, all owners, BOG, Tim Donaghy, Judge Ito, etc), and in place and playing the same year as OKC begins play.
Standard expansion draft.
As compensation the teams gets half of OKCs top 10 picks over the next 5 years. Also, no luxury tax penalties as long as OKC has a team.
As compensation the city gets, Sonics name/history, squatch, paid off Key, large financial contribution (lets say 500m) towards rebuilding the Sea Center (split 40% Sterns pocket, 40% Bennetts pocket, 20% NBA), and a iron-clad agreement that the NBA will not allow relocation for new Seattle team. Ever.
As compensation all Seattle fans get ticket prices half off as long as Durant or Green is in OKC. The new Sonics owners will get full going rate for tickets but Bennett, city of OKC and Stern subsidize the other half.
As compensation for me I get to have a vote when OKC is asking for relocation.
For these I am willing to let my Sonics go. What ya say Clay? Your turn, Stern.
——
SUBSTANTIAL LIKE THAT. If we bleed, they bleed.
April 22nd, 2008 at 11:56 am
I just fundamentally disagree with your assertion that an expansion team can be good as quickly as the current Sonics team. This team already has a good nucleus of players (KD, JG, NC, even EW). An expansion team will get everybody else’s scrubs and a nice draft pick. Expansion could be ready in 2 seasons at the earliest. By then the Sonics will have added another top 5 pick. So, even if the Seattle Expansion Team begins play in time for the 2009-2010 season, the OKC Raiders will be Rockin tha house with their sweet nucleus.
Obviously an expansion team will take much more time to be good than the current Sonics roster plus accumulated draft picks.
- Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh how can you fundemenatally disagree with something that is so obviously true???? I can understand the people who argue that they just have grown attached to KD and all that stuff…it is an emotional tie…however, factually there is ABSOLUTELY ZERO EVIDENCE that this team would be more successful then an expansion team would be.
None
Zip
Zilch
Nada
April 22nd, 2008 at 11:57 am
Has there been a single person saying we should accept a buyout on this thread? I certainly haven’t. You guys need to re-read if you think that any of us are advocating for that.
April 22nd, 2008 at 11:58 am
Chris Hafner says:
“Rejecting the idea of getting another team called the Sonics just because you like the current players is as short-sighted as the people who don’t want to keep the Sonics because their win-loss record in 2007-2008 was poor.”
I couldn’t agree with this statement anymore. You nailed it.
April 22nd, 2008 at 11:58 am
If the NBA offered the Hornets, 50 million and our colors, would it be easier to accept? ANd then in 4-5 years have Durant come here (although I think that would be a pipe dream, Durant has only been here for one year, Has he fallen in love with this area so much that he would come back after his rookie contract is up?)
April 22nd, 2008 at 12:00 pm
I think I have to agree with Dick…it really appears that some Sonics fans have been so intrenched in this fight for so long that it is causing them to stop thinking rationally and only thinking with their hearts (but convincing themselves it is logical)…I have a feeling this will die down now that the season has ended.
Personally, I am one of the few who want a trial regardless. I think this trial could be historic and historic events are by definition…historic…and I’d like to see what comes out of it.
All in all, no matter what happens (Sonics stay, Sonics leave, we get a new team) I will never be as dedicated of a fan to the NBA as I used to be.
April 22nd, 2008 at 12:01 pm
Brian,
Any chance you go on Ian, Gas or Softy show to maybe provide more light on slade’s comments?
April 22nd, 2008 at 12:01 pm
“An expansion team will get everybody else’s scrubs and a nice draft pick.”
That’s basically what we have now. Outside of Kevin Durant and MAYBE Jeff Green, we have one player that would get on the court for a contending team.
You think Earl Watson’s going to play any minutes for a good team? Luke Ridnour? Chris Wilcox? Any of our 12 C’s? Damien?
We could draft an expansion team and we’d basically be where we are now. For taking on some contracts we might even get the same draft situation we’re sitting in now.
“How can a true Sonics fan root for a buyout and losing the Sonics?”
No one that I’ve seen is. I do think it’s prudent to sit down and have conversations with those who are in a position to come to a solution vs just calling them names. Maybe the end solution that comes from negotiations is that OKC gets the expansion team because it will be till then that the Ford Center is ready with its upgrade.
I thrive in a business where the middle ground is where you live. There is no clear cut win or lose most of the time. Those that get pigeonholed into what they see as ‘the only solution’ end up the losers, while everyone else does their best to come out marginally ahead on each successive movement.
April 22nd, 2008 at 12:01 pm
Scott has bad days too. He shouldn’t have called people a dipshit. He knows it. Everybody is being pissy today so cut him some slack.
April 22nd, 2008 at 12:02 pm
If the NBA offered the Hornets, 50 million and our colors, would it be easier to accept? ANd then in 4-5 years have Durant come here (although I think that would be a pipe dream, Durant has only been here for one year, Has he fallen in love with this area so much that he would come back after his rookie contract is up?)
- I’d take the Hornets 8 days a week over the Sonics.
April 22nd, 2008 at 12:02 pm
I think Presti is not much more taleneted than 5 or 6 regulars here, I am not kidding, not even a little. The owner gives YOU the green light to gut the team and having the #2 pick was not Presti’s doing. He did well getting the picks from Orlando, but it wasn’t as if he was forcing them into anything that Rashard’s agent didn’t want done = a max contract sign and trade. The Kurt Thomas thing got use picks that would return, on average, players of the same talent level of Petro and Ridnour, congrats, all the while spending 8 million on a contract you didn’t have to take on AND saying that you are going to lose 30 million. It was his choice to lose 8 million.
I am not a PJ fan, yelling isn’t coaching, its yelling. The team quite on him twice.
The rest of those people may be as precious and rare as unicorns in a candicane forrest, if they have marketable talent then they will find a good job beyond 2011 working for an NBA team in a city that wasn’t sure it was having a team past that date. Having worked for a company that closed it’s doors before I have empathy, but the flow so far has lead the city to loserville. Clay isn’t taking you with him anyway.
Fresh start, please, thank you.
April 22nd, 2008 at 12:02 pm
The climate on this board, which can be attributed to ONE EXPECTED OCCURANCE (THE BOG VOTE) makes me very disappointed in the SOS movement. In fact, its become more of a SAVE OUR NBA than anything else - the very league that is seeking to destroy 41 years of valued Seattle history.
It was just last week when we were all looking forward to the court case in June and celebrating Schultz’s lawsuit announcement. Suits take time, and I’m sure Yarmuth is trying to line up everything in Howard’s favor.
A lot of you sound like a bunch of quitters with your SELL OUR SONICS themed posts. “Oh, maybe King David will grant us another team if we kiss his ass and get Ballmer/B2/whoever to build a brand new arena”. My gawd, listen to yourselves - you’re playing right into the league’s hands!
If the city quits this team, I’m done supporting NBA basketball in Seattle.
April 22nd, 2008 at 12:03 pm
Myk ummm wasnt Charlotte 32-50 this year????? In the past 4 years their record is as follows: 2004-05- (18-64)
2005-06-(26-56)
2006-07-(33-49)
2007-08-(3250). We have had enough of these season in Seattle lately, and when it is starting to end we get to start all over?? No way! SAVE OUR SONICS NOW!!!
April 22nd, 2008 at 12:04 pm
Myk - why don’t you move to NO to support your Hornets?
April 22nd, 2008 at 12:05 pm
Laporbo: “To me that is not enough. There needs to be some kind of serious ‘hurt’ on the NBA, OKC the city, and Clay & Co. SUBSTANTIAL HURT. We deserve that …”
Look, I understand how you feel. I want everybody responsible for this travesty to be punished.
But we’re at a crucial stage here where we actually have a lot of leverage. And that leverage could lead to us getting what we want. Do we really want to sacrifice that only because we’re angry and want to inflict pain? That’s the instinctive reaction, but we’re in a window of time where we need to use our higher brain functions to get what we want.
Think of this like a divorce. You can put all of your emotion, time, and resources into screwing over your ex-spouse as much as possible, even if you wind up with nothing. Or, if you take a more reasoned approach, you might be able to keep your Porsche. Or maybe a different Porsche, but the same year, make, and model. You don’t get to have the satisfaction of applying the screws, but there’s the possibility that you’ll keep your Porsche.
Look, if we don’t get what we want from negotiation, there’s always time to go back to open warfare. But at some point the two sides need to talk if *anything* is going to happen.
April 22nd, 2008 at 12:05 pm
Clint,
I think people are just trying to keep all of the options open, It does no one good to burn every single bridge, because we might want to cross them again.
Myk,
Would you do that even if Shinn did not agree to sell? Instead own the team here? That would make me nervous.
April 22nd, 2008 at 12:05 pm
I thrive in a business where the middle ground is where you live. There is no clear cut win or lose most of the time. Those that get pigeonholed into what they see as ‘the only solution’ end up the losers, while everyone else does their best to come out marginally ahead on each successive movement.
- Sadly this should just be a common fact of life…
April 22nd, 2008 at 12:06 pm
Would you do that even if Shinn did not agree to sell? Instead own the team here? That would make me nervous.
- I wouldn’t want NO unless NO didn’t want them anymore. Its more just a joke cause Im such a fan of CP3
April 22nd, 2008 at 12:07 pm
Hey I want to keep Durant and Green and everyone here as much as anyone, but we have to start looking at plan B and plan C.
April 22nd, 2008 at 12:08 pm
In all fairness, Durant is from Oklahoma, so there is a chance he stays there longer than expected. Lebron may stay with Cleveland his entire career, it remains to be seen (if they can get help). But Kobe will probably remain with LA his entire career. Garnett would have stayed his entire career in Minnesota if the Wolves were headed in a championship direction.
I’d say the number one reason basketball doesnt succeed in Oklahoma City is its failure to lure talent there in free agency. However, with the salary cap the NBA imposes, sign and trades, trades, draft picks and so on can offset the free agency card. However, nobody seems to be talking about how we could possibly use the players association to our advantage in this situation. There will be less revenue sharing and smaller markets as a result of the move, plus a loss in faith in the NBA to do the right thing. If we are ultimately going to lose the Sonics whether it be next year on 2010, why dont we stir the pot a bit and bring the players union into the mix. Not necessarily to oppose the move, but to appeal to the leagues policy of moving to considerably smaller markets cannot be good for players contracts in the long run.
April 22nd, 2008 at 12:09 pm
Myk ummm wasnt Charlotte 32-50 this year????? In the past 4 years their record is as follows: 2004-05- (18-64)
2005-06-(26-56)
2006-07-(33-49)
2007-08-(3250). We have had enough of these season in Seattle lately, and when it is starting to end we get to start all over?? No way! SAVE OUR SONICS NOW!!!
- Hmmm, sadly my whole point has flown over your head. Just because the people who run the team are idiots does not prevent you from winning. As you correctly stated at the end of your post:
We have had enough of these season in Seattle lately
So again…how does being an expansion team make you less likely to win then a existing team?
April 22nd, 2008 at 12:09 pm
In all fairness, Durant is from Oklahoma, so there is a chance he stays there longer than expected.
- Durant is from Maryland.
April 22nd, 2008 at 12:10 pm
Well in a sense, all fans want to keep their teams. So if we lose the sonics, Myk, what then? Expansion?
April 22nd, 2008 at 12:12 pm
Clint,
We are all looking forward to the lawsuit as an opportunity to leverage a solution. Again you need to re-read the posts if you think we’re talking about taking money for our team, selling, quitting, etc. Who says anything about letting them go so “maybe” Stern will let us have another team? There is no monetary buyout that is sufficient. None, nada, no way.
They want to take basketball out of this city to teach us a lesson. We want them to force us to leave it here. What about that is capitulating? We can argue about what we define as “keeping it here” but I think you’re going all-in without even looking at the cards. How certain are you that you win. Are you 99%? 90%? I feel good about our odds. I feel good enough that I won’t blink if they want to go to the wire. However if, as we’re standing on the wire they offer me an NBA team to avoid the showdown I certainly consider it.
My preferred answer by a long shot is that Clay gets expansion into OKC and we keep our team. That is the hope and it is the goal.
Look at Minnesotta. How is the current squad there any more connected to the team of 2 years ago than an expansion team would be? New coaches, new GM, Garnett gone. They have Corey Brewer, Al Jefferson, Randy Foye, and the shot at a high pick this year. So we’re supposed to risk everything for that type of a situation? If theres a team and their wearing the colors then it is the same situation as when GP was traded for Ray. People say at first that they are unhappy but at the end of the day they buy a new jersey and move on.
April 22nd, 2008 at 12:12 pm
Couple of points:
yes an expansion team propoerly managed could be competitve well before this franchise … anyone doubting that need look no further than the early 00s Bulls and 90s Clippers which were chock full of top draft picks and went NOWHERE folks … drafting top 5 does not automatically equate to dynasty.
point 2, I’m just wondering if anyone here thinks of the Cleveland Browns as the “real” Cleveland Browns or just a replacement franchise. If it walks like a duck(pro team), looks like a duck (team colors) and swims like a duck (plays in Seattle) …
April 22nd, 2008 at 12:13 pm
Well in a sense, all fans want to keep their teams. So if we lose the sonics, Myk, what then? Expansion?
- That would be my preferred method. After going through this ordeal it has made me realize that a relocated team just would not sit well with me. There is no way I can fight so hard to not lose this team and then turn around and be OK with forcing another market to lose their team…
April 22nd, 2008 at 12:14 pm
hoopster777 - KD is from Washington, DC. He just attended school at Texas.
LeBron would be a moron to not bolt to NYC at some point in his career, given his stated goal of wanting to becoem the first billionaire athlete in the world. Jordan almost become a Knick in either ‘96 or ‘97 (I forget which year), but the Jerry’s were able to give him the money he demanded, so he stayed a Bull.
April 22nd, 2008 at 12:14 pm
Brain is right that I’m sure a lot of the players aren’t a huge fan of Bennett and his antics. You think players like Watson, Collison, Ridnour - veterans who are basically wasting away the prime years of their career for his cause - are happy?
What is the average NBA career, maybe like 4-5 years? How would you feel knowing that had to play 20-40% of your career under those circumstances? How would it make you feel knowing that your talents basically mean nothing to the organization right now. I would be pretty bitter and I’m sure it creeps though to everyone involved. I’ve seen it (i.e. Nuggets 168 points, I can go on and on).
I’ve even heard it from a couple of the players. One of my best friends ran into a couple of players on the current roster one night in and talked to them for a few minutes, and their overwhelming sentiment was that they can not stand the current management (Presti, Bennett) and they are ridding themselves of this situation the first chance they get.
For everyone who assumes that Presti is going to automatically make this team good, remember that what he is doing is rubbing a lot of people the wrong way in the process, and I am sure they will remember that when it comes time for them to sign a new contract.
This gets back to Brian’s fresh start theory. I agree that it would be easier on a lot of people.
At this point, I would be happier watching the least talented team in the league knowing they are playing their hardest than watching anything that involves Clay Bennett and him sabotaging everyone involved for his own interests. The concept of never having to think of him again and still watch NBA basketball in Seattle is victory enough for me.
April 22nd, 2008 at 12:16 pm
Steve: On point 2, I think that is a question that should be asked to Brown’s fans, those that have been around. What are their feelings now on the situation?
April 22nd, 2008 at 12:16 pm
Hafner,
Like I said, negotiate, but to me it seems like our side is willing to settle for much less than we should. Thats all.
Settling on anything that keeps these Sonics is a win.
Settling for ‘possible expansion’ SOMEDAY or some other NBA reject team SOMEDAY is a loss.
Settling for something in the middle depends on what the middle is. So far I don’t like the middle and I don’t trust the other side to agree to anything better.
Aside from that, the divorce analogy you gave is a bit off. I don’t want the Porche, I want the wife.
April 22nd, 2008 at 12:18 pm
Myk: Man, I just don’t think expansion is in the cards for the NBA, not with several franchises having a hard time in their current cities..
Bleh. This whole situation sucks.
So where is the Draft Party going to be at? I want to start talking basketball again.
April 22nd, 2008 at 12:19 pm
LeBron would be a moron to not bolt to NYC at some point in his career, given his stated goal of wanting to becoem the first billionaire athlete in the world. Jordan almost become a Knick in either ‘96 or ‘97 (I forget which year), but the Jerry’s were able to give him the money he demanded, so he stayed a Bull
- Meh…I still don’t see how LeBron would somehow be more popular in NY then he is in Cleveland. With global markets and the Internet he will not get any more exposure in either market.
LeBron is at the point in a sports career that he can basically just go wherever he feels the most comfortable. He will be a billionaire regardless.
April 22nd, 2008 at 12:20 pm
Laporbo: “Aside from that, the divorce analogy you gave is a bit off. I don’t want the Porche, I want the wife. ”
Well, in my analogy:
Porsche=Sonics
Former spouse=Stern
So you may want to rethink that …
April 22nd, 2008 at 12:20 pm
Myk - how or why would the league expand? They already have to divide up revenue by 30 teams as it is. If I was an owner, I would never support expansion just because it would equate to less money for me.
This is also Mark Cuban’s stance on expansion.
April 22nd, 2008 at 12:21 pm
Myk: Man, I just don’t think expansion is in the cards for the NBA, not with several franchises having a hard time in their current cities..
Bleh. This whole situation sucks.
So where is the Draft Party going to be at? I want to start talking basketball again.
- I completely agree….there is no easy solution to this problem. That is sort of why I said earlier that regardless I will never be as true of an NBA fan as I was two years ago.
This is where the NBA screwed the pooch the most…
April 22nd, 2008 at 12:21 pm
If we have a team called the “Seattle Sonics” at the end of the day for the next 41 years then I think it is a victory. I don’t care how we got their!! When we are watching the games on not dealing with arena drama and relocation requests than who cares at that point. Do what needs to be done for the future.
April 22nd, 2008 at 12:25 pm
Myk - LeBron’s NY Yankee themed basketball shoes, which were limited when they released, already go for ungodly amounts of money online. Plus, the Knicks, half of the league’s historically premier franchises, are hurting for a revitalization…
LeBron’s sky is the limit, and once his management figures out how to coordinate his crossover appeal, he’ll have a real shot at eclipsing Jordan. He’s only in year 5, and I don’t think the NBA has ever seen an athlete quite like him…
April 22nd, 2008 at 12:26 pm
Myk - how or why would the league expand? They already have to divide up revenue by 30 teams as it is. If I was an owner, I would never support expansion just because it would equate to less money for me.
This is also Mark Cuban’s stance on expansion.
- I agree for the most part…if having a team in Seattle helped make all other franchises worth more money in the long run it makes sense.
Also, it is quite obvious that the other NBA owners do not seem to understand the league as a business as well as Cuband does.
None of this makes me feel better about taking another team from another market. Personally, I think anyone who is ok with us taking a team from another market is just full of shit.
I simply do not understand how you could have gone through what is happening right now and then turn around and play the role of the OKC fan. Many people here talk a bunch of trash about OKC citizens. How can you do that…and then turn around and do exactly what they are doing?
April 22nd, 2008 at 12:28 pm
While I love Mark Cuban for standing up to the evil empire, remember that what he thinks doesn’t seem to effect a whole lot either.
April 22nd, 2008 at 12:30 pm
Myk - LeBron’s NY Yankee themed basketball shoes, which were limited when they released, already go for ungodly amounts of money online. Plus, the Knicks, half of the league’s historically premier franchises, are hurting for a revitalization…
- See…in all honesty it is actually the opposite scenario. It wouldn’t be crazy for LeBron to NOT go to NY it would be crazy for the NBA to try and not force LeBron into that market.
OTH, its probably better for the league to have their stars in the smaller markets. That way you get the fans to support the teams in that market, but you can still market the game globally.
It just seems like most people do not look at how much the Internet, Cable and the global economy has changed how the league works and makes money.
April 22nd, 2008 at 12:31 pm
“Steve: On point 2, I think that is a question that should be asked to Brown’s fans, those that have been around. What are their feelings now on the situation? ”
The answer is for the ones that still follow the NFL it’s the same team.
As Brian said, players come and go. Would you be a fan of Kevin Durant if he didn’t play for the Sonics? I suspect probably not. We like these players because they are Sonics.
Bringing up the GP/Ray trade is a perfect example. People tore their hair out and said they’d never follow the Sonics again and in 05 all those people were back on the bandwagon and loving Ray Allen.
I totally understand being sour on the NBA and that’s people’s right to feel that way if they want, but I’m not so loyal to this particular group of players and front office that I’ll say it’s them or nothing. It’s not as if they’ve won five of the last six NBA titles or anything. It’s not as if this is even an up-and-coming young team. This group is literally years away from contention. Four, five years probably.
April 22nd, 2008 at 12:31 pm
Seems to me that they should at least run through all the court case pregame. Do the depositions and in doing that the bad guys will see what will be coming in court. Then maybe they’ll be more willing to talk. Assuming the good guys have the ’scary’ stuff we’ve all heard about (more emails, financial records, etc).
April 22nd, 2008 at 12:31 pm
I will not support anything that involved Seattle obtaining another cities team. Unthinkable! I’m devastated and the Sonics havn’t actaully even left yet, when they do Its going to really hurt …as ridiculous as that is. I would NEVER want to be on the OKC side prying away a cities team. Fuck that, and FUCKYOU DAVID STERN
April 22nd, 2008 at 12:32 pm
just want to correct myk, dwight howard was selected with the first pick in the draft. since charlotte did not have the first pick, they could not have selected him. roy, granger yes. but howard never could have been a bobcat.
April 22nd, 2008 at 12:33 pm
oh, same with chris paul, he was selected before charlottes pick in that respective draft
April 22nd, 2008 at 12:34 pm
just want to correct myk, dwight howard was selected with the first pick in the draft. since charlotte did not have the first pick, they could not have selected him. roy, granger yes. but howard never could have been a bobcat.
- Paul would not have been available to the Hornets either…but they were all very close. Again, the point is that the only thing that prevents expansion teams from succeeding is being poorly run and/or really bad luck…
Those are things that prevent ANY team from being successful
April 22nd, 2008 at 12:37 pm
“KD is from Washington, DC. He just attended school at Texas.”
I dont know why i thought he was from Oklahoma……
Does anyone think that sizing down some of the Western Conference teams could be a ploy by Stern to force top free agents towards Eastern Conference teams. Its no secret that Stern is unhappy at how poorly the Eastern Conference overall has been over the last decade….by sizing down Seattle to Oklahoma City it could mean less incentive for players to move to Western Conference teams through free agency. Could be a long shot, but this could be part of a longer plan to try and improve the Eastern conference powers.
April 22nd, 2008 at 12:40 pm
“just want to correct myk, dwight howard was selected with the first pick in the draft. since charlotte did not have the first pick, they could not have selected him.”
That’s true, but if you remember that draft, no one thought until draft day that hte Magic would take Howard over Okafor.
April 22nd, 2008 at 12:42 pm
This whole situation blows.
It is 100% driven by greed.
It is ugly and repulsive.
April 22nd, 2008 at 12:44 pm
Hyppothetical Situation:
Suppose that we do lose this team to OKC and in return we are granted a new Supersonics team in 2 years. In that period of time the Key is remodeled with Seattle Center. In the ensuing years after the expansion draft our hot-shot new GM drafts a marquee player(s) and makes other personnel moves to make us excited about this new Sonics team. The new hometown child that didn’t go all Oedipus on us. A team we can be proud of.
Now think about the games played against Clay Bennet’s Oklahoma teams in years to come. The rivalry would be one of intense hatred, and it wouldn’t be the players we hated. I would watch every game hoping to win just to see the look on Bennet’s face as his team (absent of KD and JG and the other talents that departed for greener pastures) loses, the hatred in his eyes..
That would be enough for me to come back and watch NBA ball.
April 22nd, 2008 at 12:46 pm
So when is the Draft?
April 22nd, 2008 at 12:46 pm
“I would NEVER want to be on the OKC side prying away a cities team.”
What if a city approached Seattle and said ‘for XXX dollars you can have our team’?
April 22nd, 2008 at 12:47 pm
I feel like the NBA has taken a dump on the city of Seattle and its basketball fans. I would love a fresh start and new team, I don’t care for any of the staff or players …except teh promise of Durant.
Is there any chance we get another team? Would hte NBA really negotiate? I get the impression they’re going to stick it to us no matter wha the cost …so in the end it feels like our only hope is keeping the current franchise. So for me, its not about wantign to keep Durant and Green …its about feeling like if we lose this team, its over, because the NBA negotiating and giving Seattle another cities team or an expansion seems so far out of the realm a possibility I can’t even imagine it. Stern and teh NBA hate Seattle.
Have missed something? Is the NBA that worried about the pending court case that they would go as far as giving Seattle or OKC and expansion team to keep it from happening?
April 22nd, 2008 at 12:47 pm
Griff: “Now lets say they replaced the old wife with… I don’t know… Jessica Alba (the Celtics). I’d be ok with that… but that’s not what is happening. They are taking the team that I grew to love and they want to replace it with some other team and for me to be passive about it. Well F*($ YOU David Stern.”
yeah except Jessica Alba is pregnant now.
So you end up getting all the expenses for having a kid. So yeah, no deal for me.
But anyway, I haven’t had the chance to weave thru everyone’s argument. The logical thinking is obviously settle with an expansion team, if we know FOR SURE the Sonics will be gone.
But it isn’t for sure yet, we won’t know what will happen if we dig up some dirt on the NBA, we won’t know what will happen if Clay has to endure two years of lame duck season.
If we are ABSOLUTELY, 100% sure Stern and Clay will buckle down and endure this mess, then sure, settle.
Its a battle of will.
on second thought, yeah I will still take a pregnant Jessica Alba
April 22nd, 2008 at 12:50 pm
Alba FTW.
April 22nd, 2008 at 12:50 pm
How could a city offer its team for sale? I really don’t know what would feel worse …losing the Sonics/NBA all together, or losing the SOnics and taking another cities team. What city is going to offer its team to Seattle? Memphis? NO? …its so funny that the 2 recent teams that moved are the 2 that are about to move again, and her the Sonics are about to move into another small market! Incredible!
April 22nd, 2008 at 12:50 pm
From the tone of todays posts I get the impression there isn’t a good vibe concerning Schultz’s lawsuit. Has the media or anyone connected with SOS had any contact with his howards group or his lawyer to see where that stands. That senario seems to me to be the only way to keep the current sonics here after 2010. I know its probably a longshot but it needs to be filed as a backup plan.
April 22nd, 2008 at 12:51 pm
Jessica Alba has herpes. She got it from Derek Jeter.
April 22nd, 2008 at 12:55 pm
i can’t take the time to read all the comments yet, and am so busy haven’t read the Johns article, but i have to say that this development as described by Brian makes me very sad. it’s not time for the city to capitulate. if the league smells that blood in the water, won’t we have a harder time attracting more allies?
as for expansion: see Cleveland Browns, Charlotte Bobcats, etc etc. add to that the pain of watching Durant and Green excelling and possibly winning very big as Dustbowlers. ask a Browns fan how it felt watching the Ravens win the Super Bowl, or a Nordiques fan how it felt seeing the Avalanche win the Stanley Cup. it’s BRUTAL.
if we lose this team and have to wait 2-4 years for another, a huge chunk of Sonics/NBA fans will never come back. count me as one of them.
April 22nd, 2008 at 12:55 pm
What if a city approached Seattle and said ‘for XXX dollars you can have our team’?
- Wouldn’t really change my attitude. I think the one thing we’ve seen is that the city government is really in tune with what the real fans think.
April 22nd, 2008 at 12:55 pm
“How could a city offer its team for sale?”
For XXX we’ll allow our owner out of his lease. This isn’t rocket science.
April 22nd, 2008 at 12:57 pm
“I really don’t know what would feel worse …losing the Sonics/NBA all together,”
whats so amazing is seeing all the other blogs that helped spread the word on our situation last week, and here we are this week talking about taking another cities team. Kind of a slap in the face of those that were standing up for us.
April 22nd, 2008 at 12:58 pm
Despite my deep hatred of anything to do with Clay Bennett and David Stern, in the end, at some point, something has to open up dialogue between the opposing parties if a solution is to be found. So yes, I reluctantly might, possibly, see the logic in softening the rhetoric just a bit in order to accomplish said goal. Yes, I will concede the logic, even if I don’t like the way it was said by Slade or written by the P-U.
I would however still contend that an expansion team will take longer to be competitive than the current Sonics roster, this roster is already two cornerstone players up on what an expansion roster would start with and will have three by the time any expansion roster in Seattle would be starting. Then your expansion roster will need a season to stink in order to get that first initial high draft pick. Anyways, that’s aside from the line of thought that it is highly unlikely there will be NBA expansion in the domestic market any time soon with all the current franchises that are already struggling.
In the end, everyone still agrees, an Arena solution has to get done before anyone around here can really think “long term” solution. That is the quintessential first step that has to take place.
April 22nd, 2008 at 12:59 pm
Wow. The sentiment on this site changed DRASTICALLY overnight. I realize we all hang on Brian’s words, and I have put a lot of weight on those words through this whole rollercoaster ride. However, I strongly disagree with the dismissive wording of Brian’s floodgate-opening statement: “Think about how attached you are to these particular guys and ask yourself what difference it would make if there were 5 guys in Sonics jerseys next year playing ball.” It would make a difference to me. Brian, I know you tried to tiptoe around this harsh new reality (no hope), but the fact is, it would make a difference to me. I am excited about KD, JG and a top 5 pick. This is the most promising group we’ve seen in a decade. On top of that, we have Sam Presti, who is, contrary to the opinions of some of the posters on this site, an amazing basketball mind. He maximzed the value of a possible lost cause in Rashard Lewis and fenagled a Kurt Thomas deal that left us with picks we never should have had, and with that, leverage for future deals. Smart. I am disappointed with SOS, for their, well… woosiness. How can so many of you die hards flip so quickly? I have long felt that I was a part of this fanatic SOS community, holding signs, rallying my friends and family, handing out business cards and e-mailing and calling officials. I want basketball in Seattle. I would love an expansion team over no basketball at all. But to hear so many of you cut ties with this squad and dismiss them so quickly makes me doubt your heart to begin with. So long gang.
April 22nd, 2008 at 12:59 pm
Jake R: Not a deal breaker imho.
April 22nd, 2008 at 1:00 pm
What if a city approached Seattle and said ‘for XXX dollars you can have our team’?
I think you’d have to concede that is a pretty big “IF”.
April 22nd, 2008 at 1:03 pm
“I know that a rational outside observer would be able to step back and say, look 10 years down the road. You look at the 41 year history of this franchise and say, the guys on this team are not the guys that were on this team 10 years from now. 10 years ago we had Payton and Kemp. Now we have neither, but we have Green and Durant. If we lose “these” Sonics, then 10 years from now we won’t have Durant or Green, but we’ll have some new guys. Unless we don’t settle, in which case there’s a good chance we’ll have no one, and our kids who never connected with Green and Durant will have no one to connect with because we were selfish and sacrificed the future by being as petty and stubborn as Stern and Bennett.”
Hey, selfish? How about the kids in Sacramento, Indiana, Memphis, New Orleans, and any other team that has a “small footprint” in the NBA whether financially or facility wise? When the NBA goes GLOBAL, 10 years from now, what about the kids of those franchises that are going to have to go through this same exact thing? This has more to do with us? How many of you actually have any principles behind your motivations whatsoever? This is about fighting a precedent, and if it so be that we lose this team, then so be it. I am going to fight this, and we should all be on that page. Many have already outlined what we would lose. And we really have very little to gain…if we settle for NBA replacements. I’m thinking about fans everywhere….selfish? That’s garbage…well said my eye!
April 22nd, 2008 at 1:06 pm
Here is also another thing to consider. let me first say i wan the current Sonics to stay. However I also want NBA basketball here so if it is an expansion team I will support that if and only if these Sonics cant stay.
What I really think we would have an advantage of in Seattle is that everyone who comes and plays here loves it here. Durant, Collison, Kemp, Allen. Many many more. Ray was here for what 3 years and look how connected he got with this team. I really think that we can attract FA to come here because of the city we live in. Look at the other expansion cities recently. They are not the most desirable city to live in.
Plus with the number of pro’s that have come to Seattle I am sure we can lure them back to there hometown.
Finally I say fire everyone and start over except the players and Calabro. Hire Bill Simmons as the new GM.
April 22nd, 2008 at 1:10 pm
Squatch and Teen Wolf would make one hell of a back court.
April 22nd, 2008 at 1:12 pm
So the city of Seattle pays the settlement fee for another cities team to break its current lease and the owner of said team than moves them to Seattle, or local owners buy the team and move it. Don’t like it, I’d rather write the NBA off altogether.
April 22nd, 2008 at 1:13 pm
I want to pose a hypothetical and probably impossible “what if” regarding this situation: What if the NBA came to us and said that in exchange for moving the Sonics to OKC (and provided we drop the suit), they would
1) Pay off the lease
2) Allow Seattle to keep the colors, team history, etc
3) Granted us an expansion team in 2010 or 2011 (whichever)
and
4) Allowed us to have Durant and Green in exchange for 2 future first rounders
If the NBA were to include that 4th provision, would that be enough to entice some of the “this Sonics team or nothing” people to consider an expansion team? I know that it’s almost a “if my aunt had testicles, would she be my uncle?” argument, but humor me here.
April 22nd, 2008 at 1:15 pm
” I really think that we can attract FA to come here because of the city we live in.”
Ummm….you do realize that the stars of this team that were actually a force in the NBA were drafted by this team and kept here. We rarely ink big time FA’s.
April 22nd, 2008 at 1:16 pm
Presti makes roster moves and trades as if he were playing a video game. They look great on paper but he has zero regard for anyone he effects.
He forgets that players have to actually like him and he has to be personable. Seems to me he is setting a huge precedent that he is of the mind frame of “What have you done for me lately?” and does not care about the consequences of some of his moves, even if they may be the best moves long-term.
Or maybe he is just following the orders of “make this team suck as much as possible for as little money as possible while we are in Seattle”.
I just think it will be interesting to watch what moves are made when they actually try to win or take a step in the right direction, because right now anyone can do what he is doing. It takes zero people skills.
Really his goal or objective is, have the worst record imaginable for as cheap as possible so if one day we get a chance to move teh team to Oklahoma City then maybe we can think about winning a game or two.
I’m not 100% sure the future would look so bright or if he would have a job if the situation isn’t what it is. If a pending move to Oklahoma isn’t even an issue, I have a hard time believing that Ray, Rashard, and Durant wouldn’t be on this team.
It is becoming clearer to me every day that the consiparcy theory we dreaded a year ago is 100% dead on. Presti’s main responsibility is to make roster moves that detach the fan base from the team and make sure they are terrible as long as they are in Seattle.
April 22nd, 2008 at 1:16 pm
Great Post Michael 12:59—my words exactly! How come everybody knew that we would lose the BOG vote, and it was no big deal. When we did lose the vote everybody wants to now settle for an expansion team? I dont understand the about face some have done on this board since the vote! This is far from over and we are now where we knew we would be 2 months ago.
WE ALL MADE CALLS, EMAILED GOVT OFFICIALS, SPORTSWRITERS, ESPN, HAD RALLYS, MADE SIGNS, MADE T-SHIRTS, FLEW BANNERS FOR THE RIGHT TO HAVE AN EXPANSION TEAM IN 2 YEARS??? NO TO EXPANSION, NO TO STERN NO TO BENNETT!!We deserve better!!
April 22nd, 2008 at 1:27 pm
You all who want an expansion in place of keeping this fight sound just like L.B. Johnson during the Vietnam War. Never wanting to win, would rather have people subject to communism rather than win. Now we just want to be subject to a precedent and a new shady standard than fight this fight. This is about principle, and sometimes going through with your beliefs means you are left only with the satisfaction that you didn’t back down from what you believed in just because someone appeased you through a buyout .
April 22nd, 2008 at 1:28 pm
I htink Slades just throwing a little propaganda out thru the media to Stern. LEt Stern think he is in a weaker position than he really is and then BANG let him have it during depositions. The rope-a dope is a classic move.
April 22nd, 2008 at 1:28 pm
“I dont understand the about face some have done on this board since the vote!”
Whose done an about face?
I just wanna know who is it that you don’t understand.
April 22nd, 2008 at 1:31 pm
I don’t think the people who are okay with an expansion team are settling, it is just that “Save our Sonics” means different things to different people.
For me, it means watching any team in the Green and Gold playing basketball in Seattle for years to come.
For others, it means watching Kevin Durant, Jeff Green, etc.
Both are okay.
Where we differ is some are willing to completely roll the dice and say, “We want Kevin Durant and Jeff Green or we never want to watch the NBA ever again,” while others are saying, “IF the option arose to secure a green and gold franchise for the long-term, that is more important to me than any current player(s)”.
Personally, I have grown numb to the fact that in pro sports players switch teams all the time and that is the environment we live in, so while I would like to watch Durant for years to come, he isn’t more important to me than the Sonics as a whole.
It doesn’t mean I’m right or I’m wrong, and it doesn’t mean that we are settling. It just means that “Save Our Sonics” has different meanings to different people, and it probably always will. It is okay to agree to disagree.
April 22nd, 2008 at 1:32 pm
“I htink Slades just throwing a little propaganda out thru the media to Stern. LEt Stern think he is in a weaker position than he really is and then BANG let him have it during depositions. The rope-a dope is a classic move.”
I’m not worried about Slade. I’m just disappointed with some of the sentiment on this board.
April 22nd, 2008 at 1:34 pm
Wasn’t there going to be an SoS meeting this week?
April 22nd, 2008 at 1:37 pm
You all who want an expansion in place of keeping this…..
In all fairness, I don’t think anyone has said they would “rather” have an expansion team than keep the current roster in Seattle. Some appear to think that is the most likely outcome, but I’m not sure that means they would “rather” have that outcome.
While I’d like nothing more than to see David Stern and Clay Bennett go down in flames on the witness chair in federal court here in Seattle, at some point discussions have to happen between the two parties (City of Seattle and NBA/Sonics) if any solution is going to be negotiated.
April 22nd, 2008 at 1:43 pm
Relax everyone. Lets not get splintered here. IMO we should do everything to keep KD and company here. I am upset about the idea of expansion of the league I have enjoyed for years. If they keep expanding it waters down the talent and the revenues for the league and makes it a less desirable product. I don’t begrudge anyone who just wants “a franchise” here but I feel we have one and we should hold on. If they take it from me, the NBA can kiss my butt and kiss my money goodbye. The league and its sponsors will not get a direct dime from me. My kids will be wearing New Balance gear for BBall, goodbye to the NBA cable package and T-Mobile contract will not renewed. VOTE WITH YOUR DOLLARS. If it’s goodbye Sonics than it’s goodbye NBA.
April 22nd, 2008 at 1:45 pm
Joshua,
Slades and Brianscomments seemto have started some of the changing sentiments. I think Slade is looking for bullets for his gun. He wants to speak with the NBA to see where their at. He wants the Legislature to get off their asses and give him something to work with. Nothing can get done without an arena plan. I don’t see it as giving in. I see it like Swayze says “we’ll play nice until its time not to play nice.
April 22nd, 2008 at 1:46 pm
Expansion: how realistic is an expansion team. The league is already suffering in many cities. Adding more teams to the league is only going to make it worse. I just don’t see adding an expansion by 2011/12 as realistic.
April 22nd, 2008 at 1:53 pm
One point that should be made from those of us that are open to a “replacement” team is that nobody is saying we should “steal” a team like Clay Bennett is attempting to do( or Michael Heisley for that matter with Vancouver).
I thought MYK put it nicely when he said ” I wouldn’t want New Orleans unless New Oleans didn’t want them anymore”.
That’s a huge difference than what Bennett is doing. We know the problems the Hornets have with attendance diving from the fallout of hurricane Katrina. The support wasn’t there at all because of personal financial problems from the residents that need to prioritize their lives. Once the new lease was signed with the minimum attendance clause the attendance rose but not a huge amount. Next season is the litmus test. Are there enough businesses left that can but enough tickets to keep the requisite numbers?
If New Orleans doesn’t have the capability to support their highend team then something will happen.
The same in Memphis. I don’t like admitting it but I’ve followed the Grizzlies a little bit this season when I first read about the financial difficulties that they are having( worse than when they were here in Vancouver). I followed them from the standpoint of seeing how they now compare to their time in Vancouver. I watched Grizzlies games where the entire upper bowl was empty. There were fans reading their newspapers rather than watching the basketball action. This in a new arena, just like the one Bennett and Stern say needs to in place to make a team financially succesful. I’ve frequented Memphis forums to see how residents feel. Believe me or not, but a large percentage feel that the Memphis college team, the Tigers are a far better product and they only support them and would rather money be spent on promoting them rather than the city cater to the Grizzlies.
Michael Heisley tried to find local partnership to share the losses, but none materialized. Now he’s gone into cut the losses mode by trading expensive players( Gasol) for expiring contracts. He recently said that he is going to be actively involved in all player transactions now. I read between the lines as that meaning that money, not talent rules the decision process. But Heisley bailed before and if nothing changes for Memphis next season I could see him throwing in the towel.
It’s more of having a guarantee by the NBA to be first in line when something is available rather than actively headhunting like Bennett did. We know that NBA history says that the odds of a team relocating in the near future are pretty good. Expansion? I wouldn’t count on it short term unless a team completey folded outright, but to have the gold chip in your pocket that says you’re next puts you in a good position down the road.
April 22nd, 2008 at 1:54 pm
Brian last night said he was worried about what readers might take from the Slade comments. I believe he said not to panic. Slade is a lawyer, he said it was time to start negotiating, he did not say what would be an acceptable offer. I’d hope the price is VERY high.
April 22nd, 2008 at 1:54 pm
Expansion: how realistic is an expansion team. The league is already suffering in many cities. Adding more teams to the league is only going to make it worse. I just don’t see adding an expansion by 2011/12 as realistic.
I tend to agree, and as such, I’d imagine that would tend to have a significant impact on the negotiations from the City’s and Slades standpoint when they do finally sit down at the table with Slimey Stern and Satan Bennett.
April 22nd, 2008 at 1:57 pm
Jammin J:
Expansion is as realistic as the Sonics not playing in Seattle four years after they took the Spurs to six games in the Western Conference Semis in 2004-05.
If you would have asked me after Ray missed that fade-away three in corner at the buzzer in game 6 that four years from now Seattle has more than a puncher’s chance of not having a team for 2008-09, I would have probably bet a lot of money on that one.
But I hear you, doesn’t seem likely, but things can cahnge very quickly.
April 22nd, 2008 at 1:57 pm
Jammin J:
Expansion is as realistic as the Sonics not playing in Seattle four years after they took the Spurs to six games in the Western Conference Semis in 2004-05.
If you would have asked me after Ray missed that fade-away three in corner at the buzzer in game 6 that four years from now Seattle has more than a puncher’s chance of not having a team for 2008-09, I would have probably bet a lot of money on that one.
But I hear you, doesn’t seem likely, but things can change very quickly.
April 22nd, 2008 at 2:09 pm
That 04-05 Season was great. Nate signs with Portland and everything has been downhill since. Not that that caused this, but it was a turning point. God damn Shultz for giving up so easily, in the end Shultz is to blame. I hate Clay Bennett, but really, didn’t we all expect this? Stern is just an asshole so focused on expanding into minor league cities like OKC and international markets that the Seattle market has become disposable.
Schultz should go down in history as the person who cost us our team, without him throwing his hands up almost immediately during arena negotiations we wouldn’t be here, add to that him soooooo eager to stick to the city that he wouldn’t wait for another local owner to step forward and you really can’t say it isn’t all his fault in the end.
Man, that last 04-05 season felt like the start of something great, now look at us.
April 22nd, 2008 at 2:09 pm
Just throwing in my vote:
I want this team with Durant and our upcoming top 4 pick next year.
Imagine if Durant does become a Jordan/Lebron/Kobe type player. We’ve never had the chance to have a player of that caliber. Ever. In 41 years. (OK maybe spencer haywood).
We were the one going through crappy seasons and finally supporting a team that sucked enough to get the draft pick to get Durant.
I don’t want to take any other city’s team after the pain I see it causes.
Expansion, sure, that’d be fine but I’m checking out and done if that happens. I’ll grow old watching old video of the championship year in 79 and the kemp payton era of the 90’s.
Fight to the end for this sonics team in this city.
April 22nd, 2008 at 2:11 pm
In all fairness, I don’t think anyone has said they would “rather” have an expansion team than keep the current roster in Seattle. Some appear to think that is the most likely outcome, but I’m not sure that means they would “rather” have that outcome.
While I’d like nothing more than to see David Stern and Clay Bennett go down in flames on the witness chair in federal court here in Seattle, at some point discussions have to happen between the two parties (City of Seattle and NBA/Sonics) if any solution is going to be negotiated.
- I think all the people freaking out about the “about face” are missing the entire point…that this team is basically an expansion team. Therefore, most (sane) people understand that if we got an expansion team as opposed to this team the team would still be in about the same position to winning.
I think Durant may be a superstar…other then that I don’t think there is one play on the Sonics roster that I’d even recommend getting excited for if there was an expansion draft (perhaps Nick..maybe Jeff Green)
- Finally…can everyone please stop giving Presti “godlike” status. The guy has not proven he can do anything yet. I think there is a chance he could be a good player. However, he has not made one player acquisition that has worked out. The Durant pick was a given…the Green pick is so/so at best at this point.
Also, for all the Presti supporters out there…does your opinion of him change any when you hear the very likely reports that Orlando offered us a better package for KT, but he turned it down to help out his old team?
Presti may be a good GM…he may be a bad GM…there is no way people should be making this decision yet based on the moves he has made.
April 22nd, 2008 at 2:12 pm
“Schultz should go down in history as the person who cost us our team, without him throwing his hands up almost immediately during arena negotiations we wouldn’t be here, add to that him soooooo eager to stick to the city that he wouldn’t wait for another local owner to step forward and you really can’t say it isn’t all his fault in the end.”
Someone needs to do thier homework on the whole situation.
With the exception of the fans, there isn’t a side in this saga who doesn’t have blood on thier hands. Howie, David and Clay are the easy, convienient choices for blame. But don’t fool yourself into believing that ‘one person’ did this.
April 22nd, 2008 at 2:13 pm
Like I said…it is obvious for many people that heart/anger has replaced the logical parts of the thought process.
It is understandable…especially for a team you really love…that doesn’t mean that there are not other solutions.
April 22nd, 2008 at 2:17 pm
Schultz is the person who gave up too easy and then sold to out-of-state owners, the majority of blood is on his hands IMO.
April 22nd, 2008 at 2:17 pm
Myk at 2:11, that was right on.
April 22nd, 2008 at 2:18 pm
i hate to sound off-putting, but let’s face it. cyberfans are in the business of expressing their feelings about recent supersonic events. those feelings are correctly identifiable as anger, rage, defiance, etc.
slade is doing something different. for that matter, so is david stern. these guys are deal-makers; big-money guys who decide things and make them happen. in this instance — and in every other pro sports situation — the fans are at their mercy.
a similar situation developed in baltimore. the colts had a crummy out-of-town owner, bob irsay. the team tanked, the community and the owner loathed each other; he yanked the team. baltimore played nice, got in line for an expansion team, and got nothing. fans focused their ire on commissioner paul tagliabue, talked hard about never following the nfl again. but their anger showed how much they wanted a team, deep in their hearts. that was when the city went the “by hook or by crook” route. they hired a slade gorton-type by the name of john moag. he negotiated (on al lerner’s plane — lerner was art modell’s banker) w/the browns, bengals, bucs, and cardinals. the end result caused panic in cleveland, until the local situation resolved with the new stadium there, and the new iteration of the browns.
tagliabue’s press conference in the wake of expansion to jacksonville was just like stern’s the other day. baltimore fans still spit at his name. BUT. . . in the end, what did happen? new stadiums in baltimore, jacksonville, charlotte, new stadium in st. louis, new stadium/team in cleveland. . . and every other city realized, “holy smokes, if it could happen to them, it could happen to us.”
this is what stern does for a living. it is the kind of hard-nosed, crooked, ’screw the public but get them to pay big bucks for the privilege’ world into which a guy like slade can ride and do battle.
seattle needs slade and his approach. his desire is to get a deal done. he’s done it before, he knows how it works. he isn’t likely to worry much about current anger or resentment or hurt feelings, or bitterness. he’s more likely to say, “how can we ensure the next 41 years — and i hope much longer — of seattle supersonics basketball?”
i am glad we have slade on our side, and i’m not gonna second guess his approach. get in their and play dirty, slade, and make something good happen for seattle fans, who never deserved this backstabbing, but who are experiencing it anyway.
get us a basketball future!!
April 22nd, 2008 at 2:20 pm
“Personally, I have grown numb to the fact that in pro sports players switch teams all the time and that is the environment we live in, so while I would like to watch Durant for years to come, he isn’t more important to me than the Sonics as a whole.”
being an a’s fan, i know firsthand what it feels like to lose your best players every year. the difference is that the a’s were compensated with draft picks when they lost their players (which turned into blanton, swisher, street, bonderman, etc, not great but not horrible either). losing durant and green in this situation would bring back no compensation. and they havent even been around long enough to show what they can really do. thats what sucks about this to me
April 22nd, 2008 at 2:24 pm
I agree with Brain. Keeping an NBA team in Seattle is what is most important …and NBA team with the Sonics branding and history, not the Seattle Hornets or Grizzlies. Its a bonus if it happens to be the one with Durant, Green and a 2008 Lottery pick. I do care however HOW we get a team. I really would rather go without an NBA team than rob another city of theirs.
April 22nd, 2008 at 2:24 pm
Brian’s pragmatic approach makes sense to me, at this point. If we want to blame anyone, blame Sims and Gregoire who jumped under the “cover” that the 28-2 vote offered, and immediately started talking about the hope certificate of getting a new team someday in the future (vs. fighting for the old). They are political animals and, if I may speculate, would probably accept a non-binding commitment for a new team, sometime down the road and claim it as a win. Slade *appears* to be trying to get dialogue started while staying mindful of the leverage possessed by the City… and I think he and Nickels want a FIRM commitment for a new team. Maybe the new team ends up being the current team. Maybe not. What unfortunately has not changed is that we still need an new arena solution (regardless of how great it is to see a game at Key today) that will satisfy Stern, and that is all that matters. This is as much about trying to corner the state legislature, King County, and the Gov, as it is about battling Stern and Clay… just my 2 cents… — Ben
April 22nd, 2008 at 2:25 pm
To all those seeking only to keep pro basketball in Seattle: Mission already accomplished - the Storm’s season starts in a few months.
SAVE THESE KD-SONICS!!!
April 22nd, 2008 at 2:27 pm
and as far as not doing business with liars, that would mean having no pro sports teams. pro sports is full of liars. so is the rest of the world. it’s a fallen world, ladies and gentlemen, and if you’re gonna wait to do business for a perfect world, then you’re looking to heaven and not to earth. which is fine. but don’t think that anything here on earth — especially in the entertainment business — is pure and blissful.
this is what pro sports does. slade knows that, and can look after seattle’s interests. and mark my words, if seattle gets a ‘new supersonics’ team, and that team has enlightened ownership and prospers on the court, then 99% of the ‘i know i’ll never love this way again/the first cut is the deepest/take good care of my baby/you were my first love, and you’ll be my last love’ reactions — no doubt sincere, but also carrying the whiff of youth, will sound pretty retro when the next chapter unfolds.
gimme supersonics. in seattle. i’ll be fine w/that. in heaven, i’ll root for honest people with impeccable business practices who never lie, cheat, or steal for fun & profit. until then, it’s the nba (and mlb, and nfl, and nhl, and ncaa. . .) for me.
April 22nd, 2008 at 2:28 pm
To all those seeking only to keep pro basketball in Seattle: Mission already accomplished - the Storm’s season starts in a few months.
SAVE THESE KD-SONICS!!!
- Sigh….
April 22nd, 2008 at 2:29 pm
charliesonic, those two posts were good.
April 22nd, 2008 at 2:30 pm
Schults was a tight-ass. He wsn’t gonna put more than 18 million into an arena deal. He was hung up on not showing a profit. So he decides to sell. Clay steps in and tells him he has a buyer who not only is going to put some coin in your pocket, he wants to stay in Seattle, and wants to use his leverage as an out of towner to get an aren funded in Seattle(bullshit we all know). I really believe he thought clay was going to stay in Seattle or he wouldn’t of had the side letter in the contract. Howie is a coffee guy not a NBA mafioso so he screwed the pooch. I pray that side letter can possibly cover his Butt. He deserves the grief he is getting for getting in bed with stern in the first place.
April 22nd, 2008 at 2:33 pm
“What city is going to offer its team to Seattle? Memphis? NO? …its so funny that the 2 recent teams that moved are the 2 that are about to move again, and her the Sonics are about to move into another small market! Incredible! ”
If Memphis could get out of their lease and move to Seattle today, they would do it. That situation has been a total failure for a number of years for both the team and the city who would far rather use that arena for Tigers hoops.
You have to get to a certain point with this where you are willing to accept any team in order to have this one. Chances are by the time this all shakes out the situation could be ripe for a franchise swap and Seattle ends up with this team anyways and OKC gets the Griz or Hornets.
Scott laid it out well … the day you draw a line in the sand you lose leverage … if all you can see is black and white you’ll be blind in a world of grays.
April 22nd, 2008 at 2:35 pm
I’ve seen a lot of wild talk today, so let’s just reset here.
- Nobody wants to take a buyout
- Nobody wants to steal another city’s team
- Nobody prefers expansion to keeping this franchise
- Everybody wants *this team* here
The disagreements are over:
- whether it’s selling out to even hold negotiations with Stern and Bennett (I think not)
- whether not keeping this team of players is worth writing off the potential of Sonics basketball *in any form* in the future
Personally, I think negotiations have to happen, and if they are to happen, they have to happen before the trial. And personally, while I’d rather have this team, having a team in green-and-gold in Sonics uniforms being called by Kevin Calabro is better than having no team.
April 22nd, 2008 at 2:37 pm
Kansas City built a brand new arena to attract NHL and the NBA. Sold club seats and suites when they thought they were getting the Penguins. They had to refund the money when the Pens stayed in Pittsburgh. They have a state of the art building with no anchor tenet. Expansion or the NHL is not guaranteed in any way. B2 can build an new arena for a 10 Billion dollars if they want but it doesn’t get you an anchor tenet. Expansion is “pie in the sky” and if we want the NBA back here it will be the Hornets or the Grizzlies. I don’t want to steal a team after we have been stolen from.
KD-Sonics or bust!!!!!
April 22nd, 2008 at 2:40 pm
Thanks ‘charliesonic’ for the posts. Great perspective!
April 22nd, 2008 at 2:40 pm
charliesonic: “and as far as not doing business with liars, that would mean having no pro sports teams. pro sports is full of liars. so is the rest of the world. it’s a fallen world, ladies and gentlemen, and if you’re gonna wait to do business for a perfect world, then you’re looking to heaven and not to earth.”
Exactly right. If you’re looking for nice people and the moral high ground, you’re not going to find it in pro sports, Field of Dreams notwithstanding.
April 22nd, 2008 at 2:41 pm
http://www.examiner.net/stories/031508/spo_258170423.shtml
The Sprint Center.
April 22nd, 2008 at 2:41 pm
“You have to get to a certain point with this where you are willing to accept any team in order to have this one. ”
And since reading comprehension seems to be in short supply today do not take that as me saying ‘any team by any means necessary’ … I do not want to ’steal’ another city’s team to replace this one. I would not be interested in Steve Ballmer buying the Milwaukee Bucks and moving them here, for instance. But if the city wants the team out, and the team isn’t interested in staying there that is another situation entirely.
I believe in my heart there is an amicable resolution to all this. I believe that in the end things will work out here. But some of you have to understand this is a roller coaster ride and has been all along. You can’t get too up or too down over it or it will eat you up.
April 22nd, 2008 at 2:43 pm
I see it like this: the city of seattle has to work with the nba and clay to either keep this team or have a relocation/expansion team. I don’t agree on a buyout and to lose players like kd jg and nick collison but I thought we were here to keep basketball in seattle. if there anyway to keep basketball here I’m all for it. stern and clay do not want to go to court and risk looking like a-holes to the public so I feel that they will settle out of court and a team will be in seattle.
what I like to see happen and I know its a long shot and its only a dream but as part of the settlement is that they spilt the team in half and each side clay and ballmer get to pick six players each and full the rest with free agents and nbdl players spilt the nba picks. both teams get a build around the young players and we could still watch young talent develop. myabe they can put the sonics in the east and we can be in the playoffs with a losing record..lol
April 22nd, 2008 at 2:46 pm
I would not be interested in Steve Ballmer buying the Milwaukee Bucks and moving them here, for instance. But if the city wants the team out, and the team isn’t interested in staying there that is another situation entirely.
- How do you judge this?? Dont you think most people from the outside would say that the city doesn’t really want the Sonics in Seattle??
April 22nd, 2008 at 2:50 pm
I am jumping in at the bottom and have not read all 200+ posts.
I wish there was a way for OKC to get the expansion team and Seattle to keep the current team. How does that happen?
I do not trust the legislature to get anything done. All they needed to do was give the authorization. Those of us who live outside of Seattle are not really affected by the tax. Why would it matter to my rep in Spokane to authorize a Seattle based tax. It is truly ridiculous. I spoke with people from my senate and house reps after the vote. One said that there was nothing to vote on. How could Gregoire, Chopp, etc say there are not enough votes while my rep said he did not have a bill to even have an opinion about? Someone is not telling the truth.
This is why a $75+M lease buyout from Clay plus a promise for a new franchise from the NBA makes sense. Both would need to happen. The buyout money would pay for missing part of the building cost. Then the money is in place to have an NBA quality facility, buyers for the Sonics and a chance to save the Seattle Center.
I love KD and think he will be great. But I have been watching the Sonics since our family moved to Tacoma in ‘75. A lot of great players have come and gone, including a few Hall of Famers. Yet, I keep rooting for Sonics after those players leave. I root the Sonics, not KD or any other specific player. I root for them when they wear the Green and Gold. After that, I am interested and wish them well, but I keep rooting for the Sonics.
As you think about your willingness to accept an expansion team think about your entire history with the team not just your fascination with KD.
April 22nd, 2008 at 2:52 pm
It ould be just like here. The State and city governments might not care but the teams fans will. And it will only hurt them.
April 22nd, 2008 at 2:53 pm
This is why a $75+M lease buyout from Clay plus a promise for a new franchise from the NBA makes sense. Both would need to happen. The buyout money would pay for missing part of the building cost. Then the money is in place to have an NBA quality facility, buyers for the Sonics and a chance to save the Seattle Center.
- Question…doesn’t the payout only need to equal $75 million? It was my understanding that the $300 million dollar renovation to Key Arena including retiring the old debt? Since Bennett stands to lose $60 million over the next two years + Legal Fees…you’d think that it was possible.
Expansion Team: $350 Million
Private Investment in Arena: $150 Million
City Investment: $75 million (from users fees)
Private Investment from PBC: $75 million (to get out of lease)
Everyone is happy FINANCIALLY
April 22nd, 2008 at 2:55 pm
i take issue with the very phrase of ’stealing another city’s team.’ to me, it is not the fans’ to steal. what i mean is, the people who decide where teams will be are not the fans, they are the owners and the commissioners.
the fans of indianapolis were/are loathed by baltimore for ’stealing’ the colts. the fans of baltimore were/are loathed by cleveland for ’stealing’ the browns (and for doing unto others as was done unto them). in NONE of these cases — and in no other cases as far as i can see — did the fans steal anything.
it was ownership which cut deals with local interests, brokered by commissioners, who determined where teams would wind up.
that is how it works. i LOVE the supersonics, and i love seattle. but i don’t think they are mine to control. in sum, that’s why the whole thing is irrational. love is often that way.
but if seattle winds up with the grizzlies, or another preexisting team, it isn’t the case that seattle stole it. it’s the case that the nba, in all its mercenary glory, decided that it was in the league’s interest to put it in the great nw instead of where it was.
think about it in reverse. what could a fine, moral, upstanding fan in the okc do right now to ‘prevent’ the team from coming in? to prevent their locality from ’stealing’ the sonics? nothing. unless that person was mayor, or something. otherwise, they’re just a future paying customer with no power to decide the issue.
this is how every single pro sports league operates. the teams know that the fans love their hometowns. the team gins up the illusion — which sometimes takes on tangibile form — of hometown pride, and sells itself as a local entity. but as we can now see, if the team ever falls into hostile hands (and i still say that howard schultz did what old colt/ram owner carroll rosenbloom did, in a fit of pique: selling the team to out-of-town interests to punish his hometown for not doing as he bid them), then the one-sided nature of the relationship is over.
no city loved its team more than brooklyn did the dodgers. but love doesn’t conquer all in this kind of world.
that is why we need slade, who understands and thrives in the nba boardroom environment, to get in there and drive home a deal that will benefit seattle. other cities have their slade-equivalents, and they will look after their own interests, as well.
this team = best option. but not the only option. sometimes in life, you gotta take what you can get, not hold out for what you can’t. otherwise, every man would marry a supermodel, every woman a ceo or movie star.
that’s my story & i’m sticking to it.
April 22nd, 2008 at 3:06 pm
“but if seattle winds up with the grizzlies, or another preexisting team, it isn’t the case that seattle stole it. it’s the case that the nba, in all its mercenary glory, decided that it was in the league’s interest to put it in the great nw instead of where it was.”
then what is all the bitchin is about. We aren’t exactly going for that sentiment here that it’s the best interest that the sonics move to OKC, are we.
April 22nd, 2008 at 3:06 pm
think about it in reverse. what could a fine, moral, upstanding fan in the okc do right now to ‘prevent’ the team from coming in? to prevent their locality from ’stealing’ the sonics? nothing. unless that person was mayor, or something. otherwise, they’re just a future paying customer with no power to decide the issue.
- Not support the team?? Vote out the government officials that let it happen. I see the point you are trying to make…but I do not accept that teams are not owned by fans. If they are not owned by fans then the ownership groups have no right to ask for fans to pay for their buildings.
You are sliding down a slippery slope with your entire argument.
April 22nd, 2008 at 3:09 pm
“nothing. unless that person was mayor, or something. otherwise, they’re just a future paying customer with no power to decide the issue.”
then what the hell have we been doing these past few months. Whats with asking us to call the governor, to have protests, to have signs, to blog, to write other owners, to have rally’s.
Whats the point if we have ‘no power’.
April 22nd, 2008 at 3:11 pm
“Everyone is happy FINANCIALLY”
In the end that is the point. Why don’t many of us own boats that would like to? They cost way too much to maintain. A losing NBA team is no different. The finances have to work.
To repeat myself, I have been a Sonics fan while living in Washington, Virginia, Oregon, Indiana, Ohio and worked to find a way to watch playoff games while in Europe. I plan to be a Seattle Sonics fan well after all of the current players are retired. 15 years from now when I am taking my grandkids to games, this will all be ancient history.
April 22nd, 2008 at 3:16 pm
i hate to be a downer, but watching durant play and thrive in another city is really, really going to be painful. i can see that now.
April 22nd, 2008 at 3:16 pm
I too am jumping in at the bottom of the post. I have tried to read most, but here is my stance as a long time fan and supporter.
My stance is softening as we could be burning a bridge with the NBA if we do not consider all options. We could be in a place that under no circumstances, they would return. I was of the crowd that, said “make em pay.” But once you step back, any team will make me happy at this point.
Theoretically, an owner like Ballmer or whoever, will bring back the tradition in the front office and every aspect. You might see old favorites return like Sikma, Schrempf, Payton. You might see Lenny involved to some degree, and you still would see the colors and logo in place. So if its this team, expansion, or a team like the Grizzlies, what will engage us as fans will be to see Gary’s number retired on opening night and other moments created by a new team and a new owner.
I want this team too. However, thinking about it, it really was not Seattle’s team when Clayton started stripping the guts out of it.
P.S. Durant will be a free agent in a few years and who will have more cap space? New York or what ever team ends up in Seattle? My point is, names turn over, tradition will come back with the right owner.
April 22nd, 2008 at 3:18 pm
“Oklahoma City’s near neighbor, Tulsa, eager for new team”
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=3361374
April 22nd, 2008 at 3:22 pm
“i hate to be a downer, but watching durant play and thrive in another city is really, really going to be painful. i can see that now.”
Exactly. Plus, the guy’s got a level head, (unlike Garbagemelo), and WILL be a great superstar within the next few years if he bulks up accordingly to avoid injury… Seattle will really miss out in losing KD, on and off the court.
April 22nd, 2008 at 3:25 pm
in the words of William Wallace:
Aye, fight and you may die. Run, and you’ll live… at least a while. And dying in your beds, many years from now, would you be willin’ to trade ALL the days, from this day to that, for one chance, just one chance, to come back here and tell our enemies that they may take our lives, but they’ll never take… OUR FREEDOM!
aka Keep OUR team here, Settling for another team is admitting defeat
April 22nd, 2008 at 3:26 pm
Here you go guys….
“http://www.hornets247.com/”
Why don’t you just start posting over there, tell them how they don’t deserve a team. How we can support the team better than they can. That we will do whatever necessary to have their team.
go for it.
April 22nd, 2008 at 3:29 pm
JammingJ: “Why don’t you just start posting over there, tell them how they don’t deserve a team. How we can support the team better than they can. That we will do whatever necessary to have their team.”
Um, who’s saying that? The strawman is getting a vicious beating today.
April 22nd, 2008 at 3:30 pm
Not a Dave Boling fan but his comments about guaranteed contracts rings true to me.
http://www.thenewstribune.com/sports/sonics/story/341358.html
Jammin’: what in the heck are you talking about?
April 22nd, 2008 at 3:31 pm
Man, this is a toughie. Believe it or not, despite the poor record, I see a bright future for this team as it adds players and eventually dumps P.J.
In a perfect world(or maybe it’s my allergy medicine), maybe the evidence our city has on Bennett and the league is so compelling, that maybe we can leverage it so WE get THESE Sonics, and CLAY CLAY gets the PROMISE of a franchise. Stern is probably more apt to follow through on a promise to a fellow slimeball(or Frank Chopp) than he is to us.
I don’t trust an NBA promise based on their most recent perfromance. The league will not expand(the talent is too diluted already), and who knows how long it will really take for another franchise to cave in and want to come here.
April 22nd, 2008 at 3:33 pm
i think jamming is speaking to all of the people that hate the okc trolls celebrating at our misfortune, but are now rationalizing taking the grizzlies or hornets just to have a team
April 22nd, 2008 at 3:34 pm
Jay: OKC getting the expansion team would have been a more realistic option if we had arena funding in place.
Logistically it also makes sense to give Seattle a few years to get the Key remodel done to move the new team in. While OKC plays in the profitable Ford Center.
April 22nd, 2008 at 3:34 pm
what do you think we would be doing by trying to steal/buying another team. Other fans have stood up for us, but now its, sorry, but we want your team now that it hasn’t worked out for us with clay. Everything we have been bitchin about owners taking teams, and then we want to do the same to another city.
April 22nd, 2008 at 3:35 pm
Jay Holzman:
“I don’t trust an NBA promise based on their most recent perfromance. The league will not expand(the talent is too diluted already), and who knows how long it will really take for another franchise to cave in and want to come here.”
Amen.
SAVE THESE SONICS!!!
April 22nd, 2008 at 3:36 pm
…most (sane) people understand that if we got an expansion team as opposed to this team the team would still be in about the same position to winning.
Durant is a once in a lifetime player. and This sonics team has a top 1-4 pick in the upcoming draft. In my lifetime, we have not been in such a strong rebuilding position. If we get an expansion team, I might never in my lifetime have another chance at a player like KD on the Seattle Supersonics.
Here’s a deal Clayton, we let you out of the lease in one year and you leave us the sonics colors, name and history AND Kevin Durant to start our expansion team.
April 22nd, 2008 at 3:36 pm
“how long it will really take for another franchise to cave in and want to come here”
doesn’t the memphis lease go til 2020?? I hear fans there are already talking about injunctions and taking legal action if necessary.
April 22nd, 2008 at 3:38 pm
“Scott laid it out well … the day you draw a line in the sand you lose leverage … if all you can see is black and white you’ll be blind in a world of grays.”
Bingo.
Hell guys. I don’t want to lose Durant either. I don’t want to “let” Clay and Stern win and get their way even worse. But at the end of the day, the question is pretty much, do we want to fight a fight of very difficult odds to the bitter end, or do we want to use our leverage to get the most we can? The leverage we have does mean something. But it has it’s limits. We have the leverage of another 2 years. Stern and Clay don’t want that. So we use it to get what we want. Well, at least as much as we can. But if we overplay our hand, be it fair or not, we might end up with jack squat.
Clay is possessed. That is very clear. He and Stern are all in on this. He is not going to give up just because of 2 years. He feels as if he’s already spent two years waiting. What’s another 2? Let’s be realistic and admit that Howard’s lawsuit is going to be near impossible to win. So all we got is forcing the next two years. Clay is going to get what he wants somehow, someway.
I’m with you “this team or nothing” folks also. I am mad as hell about what has happened, and I want revenge on Clay and Stern. I HATE the thought of them “winning” this thing. But we have to admit that we are playing at rigged game. Stern is the one making the rules, and he is 100% on Clay’s side. So when I think about that, I say “go to hell. I am sick of playing you game.”
But I also want to have the Seattle Supersonics exist at the end of the day. I want my kids to be able to go to basketball games. I am all for continuing to play our hand right now. No way in heck do you just roll over and give up. But when the time comes, when it is obvious that our hand doesn’t have much left, we need to be realistic. Yes, the bitter pill of losing KD and seeing Clay and Stern win after treating us the way they have is terrible and will be rough for the immediate future. But 10-15 years down the road when the Seattle Supersonics are whooping up on the Oklahoma City Scumbags, it won’t seem to matter as much. It hurts to say it, but it’s true.
It comes down to this. What do we want? Do we want basketball in Seattle in the future? Or do we want to fight a rigged game in the name of righteousness? The 2nd option sounds appealing when you are in the right mindset. But think about the term “righteousness” and how it applies to our society and the world we live in today. It doesn’t mean much in the end. You can either play the big, nasty corporate game, or you can be a righteous protester and lose.
I have extremely mixed emotions about this. But in the end, I’d rather have A team over NO team. Even if the game is rigged and the league is dirty. I don’t root for the NBA, NFL, or MLB. Those money hungry, scumbag organizations can all go to hell. But I do root for MY Seattle Seahawks, Mariners, and Supersonics. And in the end, that is more important to me than righteousness in a world that doesn’t care about it.
April 22nd, 2008 at 3:39 pm
Look, I am all for going to the table…but not to settle for anything less than keeping the team we have. I understand that “playing the game” is part of the dance, but if it is only to to make sure that we get some barebones expansion franchise in the next decade or so then….absolutely not.
I TRUST SLADE. Bottomline, he is going to use “table talk” to get the leverage he needs. I really believe he is feeling out the climate of everything below the “social disclosure” level. I’m all for what he has to do to WIN his case. If in the proceedings he can get the PRIMARY goal accomplished via-settlement ( which is keeping KD/JG/and a possible #2 pick) then kudos.
We’ve got Yarmuth and Slade….proven track records. Look at it this way…when Michael and Scottie were on the court…..did you doubt(as far as the Bulls and their success?)??/ No? Then why are we doubting two of the very best in the business?!
April 22nd, 2008 at 3:40 pm
JamminJ
So whats your solution, basically we keep the sonics, or we will never have NBA basketball again? Thats what you are making it seem like. No one wants another team here, But what if there is no choice?
And you seriously can’t blame seattle fans that start to look at other teams, WHAT else are they suppose to look at?
April 22nd, 2008 at 3:45 pm
Before we are willing to give up basketball in Seattle forever over KD, let’s think about things for a second. What are the chances that once KD’s rookie deal expires, that his agent and sponsors aren’t going to want to get him in a mega-market like NY? Or that he himself might want to go play back east, closer to home? There are no guarantees. Maybe he would stay here and be a Sonic for life. But you never know. Would it have been worth giving up the Mariners for ARod?
April 22nd, 2008 at 3:45 pm
NOTE: obviously my deal for Clay was a joke to make a point. I’m standing for this sonics team in seattle.
April 22nd, 2008 at 3:49 pm
Brian Robinson said:
“I really, really believe that at the end of the day if we negotiate from a position of strength but with an open mind we likely wind up keeping this organization. It is easier and makes more sense.”
Brian, you’ve mentioned this notion several times, but you’ve never really expanded on it. If you have the time/inclination, can you please explain what you mean: how it is easier and makes more sense for Bennett to get some other team, rather than taking the team he already owns, and for Seattle to keep this team rather than getting some other team. I don’t get it.
Thanks!
April 22nd, 2008 at 3:49 pm
Most of us are talking about expansion.
The other reality is that the City of Memphis has an interest in ending the lease. NO has had bball 2x and has not supported well either time. Maybe they are not really an NBA city. There is a big difference between 7 or less years and 41.
April 22nd, 2008 at 3:52 pm
Preferences
1) Sonics stay, OKC gets something else;
2) Seattle gets expansion team, Seattle franchise goes to OKC (ouch);
3) Seattle gets an existing franchise, Seattle franchise goes to OKC (double ouch);
4) we get nothing, Seattle franchise goes to OKC (not a preference, just an ugly ending).
I can get behind 1) and 2) easily, particularly if we keep the Sonics name, colors and history. The third option troubles everyone because it means another city and its NBA fans suffer. But I don’t think there’s a realistic choice here, if the Sonics go to OKC. NBA fans in some other cities are going to lose their teams regardless. Two or three NBA franchises stand a reasonable chance of moving in the next three to 10 years. If Seattle is available as a market, we will get one of the teams. Greed works, especially in the NBA…
April 22nd, 2008 at 3:55 pm
I don’t see a ton of options if this group does not stay. The owners are by and large against expansion. So, unless our team is going to Oklahoma and the Hornets are coming here, I’m not sure what will happen unless the owners change their tune. Stern continues to call Seattle “scorched earth” whatever the bleep that means.
This team has to stay IMO because there aren’t enough other options. Slade, Schultz and others have to understand that the team isn’t moving without a legal settlement anyway. I expect this thing to drag on for a while. The 28-2 voted doesn’t mean a thing without a legal settlement as far as I cant tell. I don’t understand why Slade would say the team is as good as gone. I’m hoping he’ll give us some kind of a better quote indicating that he’ll continue to fight. I’d drink a beer to that.
April 22nd, 2008 at 3:57 pm
I think it is in Seattle’s best interest to at least talk about ways to fix this MESS (and it is a MESS) 1. It looks good 2. In negotiation you have to be willing to give a little and take a little.
Talking to your enemy is better then not talking to him unless we are really talking NBA genocide. Clay dismantled this team so we wouldn’t be attached to it so we could fold easy. My animal instinct says to hell with them all and lets eliminate the NBA from WA State forever but after I calm down and think about it, I really just want a team to yell for, and to unwinde after work. I bet you $$ that Durant will come back here if we have a good offer for him.. Again, here we are spending money on a company(NBA) that treats us like crap.. what else is new America. I will still try and fight as long as I can for the current team and will be “kicking and screaming” the whole way. But when it comes time to make a deal if we can get a team here then fine but I will not be happy about it and will make sure the next 2 years of the Sonics is full of pain for Clay.
Also, the team that goes to OCK will be cursed and will enable me to FEAST ON THEIR FAILURE FOR YEARS…. Have fun with WILD BOBBY GINGER(SWIFT)
In the mean time Scorched EARTH!!!
April 22nd, 2008 at 3:57 pm
Think about it this way. Look at the Cleveland Browns. Do you think that Browns fans don’t like having their team that they currently have? Do you think that they would give it up right now? Hell no. And they have to deal with the exact same thing as us, plus also had to watch their old team win a title in Baltimore. But all that crap, regardless of how bad it was, is in the past. Sure, they will forever be bitter about it. But when each NFL season kicks off from here on out, they have a team. And it’s taken them a bit, but they have a decent team now as well.
I actually spent a lot of time talking to Browns fans on a forum of theirs. This was months ago. They were extremely supportive of us as you could imagine. One thing caught me off guard though. They were basically telling me to start fighting for a replacement team. And this was about a half year ago. Why? Because they have already been where we are and have gone through what we are going through. They already knew that the game was rigged. They knew what was going to happen, and what we needed to do if we wanted basketball and OUR team to remain in OUR city.
Who would you rather be right now? A football fan in Cleveland, or a football fan in Los Angeles?
Again, I am not saying that we give up like many in the media are suggesting. Just that at some point we need to be realistic about our chances and where our leverage is taking us.
April 22nd, 2008 at 3:58 pm
malaman–
I think NO is the only reality unless the team stays. The owners indicated that they don’t want expansion recently.
April 22nd, 2008 at 4:00 pm
Durant is a once in a lifetime player. and This sonics team has a top 1-4 pick in the upcoming draft. In my lifetime, we have not been in such a strong rebuilding position. If we get an expansion team, I might never in my lifetime have another chance at a player like KD on the Seattle Supersonics.
- I think Kevin Durant is a really, really, really good player. All the criticism that people like AK and Big Dipper laid upon him was pretty harsh.
OTH, he is NOT a “once in a lifetime player”. In the last 5 years we’ve seen LeBron James, Chris Paul, and Dwight Howard all come out and be available to be drafted. Durant will be a great player…but he will never be as good as those three players.
As I outlined above, there is at least a plausible scenario where an expansion team could’ve drafted 2 of those great players. Therefore, I do not worry that a team run by a smart executive could lead an expansion team to a title in any significantly less time then a GM could lead the existing Sonics team.
April 22nd, 2008 at 4:03 pm
To respond to those saying, “But the odds of getting a team are really bad”. Well if that’s the case, then duh! If Stern doesn’t PROMISE YOU IN WRITING another team, then hell no, you don’t take a deal. The ONLY way I am for considering a deal is that once you win the court case to force another 2 years, and Stern and Clay come to you wanting nothing to do with it, that is when you play your hand. I really hope people here don’t think that Howie’s case scares Stern and Clay too much. Cuz it doesn’t. But they do not want to play 2 more years in Seattle. So in that case, we can say, tough luck. Plus we got Howard’s crap for them to deal with afterward. Even though it doesn’t have much chance to get us the team back, Stern and Clay don’t want anything to do with it. That’s where Stern has to start making promises to clean up his mess. That is the only time you would consider making a deal IMO.
April 22nd, 2008 at 4:03 pm
Most of us are talking about expansion.
The other reality is that the City of Memphis has an interest in ending the lease. NO has had bball 2x and has not supported well either time. Maybe they are not really an NBA city. There is a big difference between 7 or less years and 41.
First of all, MOST of us are NOT talking about expansion. Second of all, unless you understand the situation fully…careful about taking someone elses team. Most people in this nation don’t know what is really going on here, and I am pretty sure that most of us don’t know what is going on with those two franchises.
April 22nd, 2008 at 4:07 pm
For those who say, “But the NBA has NO interest in expanding anytime soon”. Well so what? The NFL wasn’t planning on expanding when they were FORCED to promise Cleveland another team. When a league has a huge mess on it’s hands, it’s funny how quickly they can change their minds about something if it helps them avoid an even bigger mess.
April 22nd, 2008 at 4:11 pm
Stern/CLay = Hitler’s army, Seattle= Communist Russia: Interesting terms that are being used here.
World War II
When Germany attacked the Soviet Union in 1941, Joseph Stalin ordered both soldiers and civilians to initiate a scorched earth policy to deny the invaders basic supplies as they moved eastward. The process was repeated later in the war (German “verbrannte Erde”), when retreating German forces burned or destroyed farms, buildings, weapons, and food to deprive Soviet forces of their use.(wiki)
April 22nd, 2008 at 4:17 pm
Moving a team or an expansion team , it would be a tough go for an owner. Not gonna draw a lot of fans. The NBA stench would be all over that team. I’ll just wait for the Yakima Sonics to arrive via Okc, Grand rapids, and Juarez in a few years.
April 22nd, 2008 at 4:21 pm
NOPE. Don’t know all or even most of the details of what is going on in other cities.
I think we will have to wait quite a while if we are hoping for another city’s franchise. Not sure Stern will be in a position to promise that.
I guess what we are waiting on is to see how much pressure the court case puts on the NBA. The problem I see is if Clay and the NBA are willing to weather the storm we get nothing. With each line they cross our leverage goes down.
April 22nd, 2008 at 4:21 pm
EJ, problem is, once these court cases are gone we have no leverage to FORCE anything. Here is the problem:
Right now, the biggest fish on Stern’s list is getting this league GLOBAL. The smaller franchises are going to be in foreign countries when all is said and done. That is the only way Stern’s global model will work. We are being made an example of so that he 1. understands how to better the process the next go around and 2. to say, look, we did this in Seattle to a franchise of 41 years…and we’ll do it here too.
Having said all that we are not fighting for an expansion franchise, we are fighting to keep the Supes in Seattle AND protect them from global piracy when the time comes to move teams into said foreign markets. Even if the Sonics go to OKC…unless they are producing NYC/madison avenue type numbers, Clay will move them with Stern’s blessing, or sell to a foreign buyer who will then put them in china or russia. OKC is really only renting this team, Clay know is(and is fine with it, willing to put one over on his own people), Stern knows it, and we should be well aware of it.
April 22nd, 2008 at 4:24 pm
I disagree Moe. I think a new LOCAL Seattle Supersonics (and that is what they would be called. You don’t negotiate or make a deal without that being one of the terms. And quite frankly, Clay doesn’t want it other than using it as leverage) with an emphasis on being OURS would do just fine. The new ownership group would be excited and that would translate to the fans. It would be viewed as a new beginning. People would be so relieved just to not have Clay Bennett around or apart of the equation anymore. It would be a giant monkey taken off of all of our backs.
And again, I am not saying we need to do this right this minute. But a couple more steps along the way, depending on how things are looking, it just might be the right move.
April 22nd, 2008 at 4:29 pm
You really cant put the blame solely on Shultz.
If this is the reasoning your playing with, that we wouldnt be in this situation if Shultz hadn’t sold the team to Bennett to begin with, then I guess you can go as far back as blaming hurricane Katrina for giving Bennett an incentive to buy the team in the first place. If the Hornets hadn’t been relocated to OKC because of Katrina, then Shultz wouldnt have sold to Bennett. You could go as far back and just blame George Shinn for moving from Charlotte to a hurricane hot spot to begin with.
Its stupid to put the blame solely on Shultz……yes it sucks he sold the team but to be honest it was losing money and Shultz’s pockets arent as deep as say Steve Ballmer’s to take the economic hits the Sonics were taking. He could have sold the team to the San Jose investment group who was GOING to move the team no matter what, but he didnt. And maybe he did seek out local ownership but there was no interest at the time because local businesses didnt think Seattle would actually care that the Sonics left if Shultz sold.
Either way, I think Ballmer entered the picture along with his associates because:
1) He’s seen that Seattle does care for its team
2) After experiencing a roller coaster ride in Seattle, it might be a good long term investment to own the Sonics in the future, if properly managed
3) Despite poor showing from state government, Nickels has shown enough interest in keeping the team here to deny being bought out by out of towners.
Its completely irrational to blame Shultz for selling the team. And even if you do, what good is it going to do to just complain and boycott Starbucks for the next decade. You could do that, but whats it going to do for you, get the Sonics back? Yeah I suppose your making a stand, but I doubt, even with Starbucks posting poor earnings the last few years, its going to do much to harm Shultz’s checkbook.
We should be fortunate that Ballmer has offered to buy back the Sonics, or put forth money for a future team……a team owned by a guy with at 15 billion dollar net worth means he can take the economic hits in recessions and poor times for sports franchises.
April 22nd, 2008 at 4:29 pm
its one thing if your star player gets traded, but if durant is in okc and we have an expansion team, its still a slap in the face because he was stolen, not traded. getting an expansion team is like having your 1990 porsche 911 stolen and the insurance company gives you a new vw beetle to replace it, its not the same. and never mind that argument, im just sick of beeing pissed on by the nba. if stern was being resonable then maybe, but the way hes carrying on im over it. you dont get treated like this as a loyal customer and then keep going back to the same business. i realise keepin this team is like a 5% chance, but thats why im sticking around for now, 5% is better than 0%. as soon as it gets to 0% im done. the sonics will be playing in okc and the sonics the second (a la boobie prize for playing nice with reacharound davey) will be in seattle. just not the same to me.
i do hope however that you guys get an expansion team if it comes to that, youve fought hard and deserve something, just know i wont be enjoying it with you.
April 22nd, 2008 at 4:30 pm
“EJ, problem is, once these court cases are gone we have no leverage to FORCE anything.”
Not true. Once the first court case is gone, the Sonics will be stuck in Seattle for the next 2 years. When that happens and Clay’s attempts at buying out the lease have all failed, what do you think he is going to do next? Run and whine to Stern. That is when Stern will have to get involved to save Clay and himself a big mess. And that is when you begin to make your demands. That is where a new team being PROMISED comes into play. THAT IS YOUR LEVERAGE.
If Clay and Stern don’t give a crap about being stuck in Seattle and are more than willing to tough it out for two more years. Then yes, then you have almost no leverage. But that’s not what is being discussed by people in the media and people like Slade. What they are talking about right now is, “Hey, if you want to talk, fine. But it is going to be on our terms.”
April 22nd, 2008 at 4:31 pm
OK folks, here is the dose of reality MOST of you need regarding expansion. It would take a globalization of the league, and a collapse of said globalization in order to get a few teams back here. If teams were to ship foreign, and then fail, they would be headed back to the states to find local homes again, David Stern would at that point be viewed as somewhat of a failure, in hindsight people would view us moving as a mistake…and at that point we would have an opportunity to get a team back…..all that has to go down…if this team leaves…it will be a minimum of 10 years before one will be back in Seattle.
April 22nd, 2008 at 4:37 pm
Part of the “waiting out” the 2 years that is going to be so difficult is the fact that they would also have to endure the Schultz lawsuit, which apparently(as stated from one legal observer) is going to cost both sides a great deal of money in legal fees alone. If you take that out, as well as the class action suit…while 2 years can be a long time, and a hard wait, it will be significantly easier without those other problems…hence, if Howies case doesn’t make a dent…then you are relieving clay of a lot of pressure. Plus, if it is going to be so horrible for clay and david to stay two years that they would get us an iron clad promise for expansion regardless the vote and desire of the owners…then why not go for the Gold and use that leverage to keep the team here instead of stopping short on a far lesser prize?
“Hey, if you want to talk, fine. But it is going to be on our terms.”
I agree. As long as our terms are, give us what we are aksing for, or else we will see you in court!
April 22nd, 2008 at 4:40 pm
I know Stern wants to globalize the NBA, but does anyone actual believe this is realistic? I still have yet to see an economic plan of how the NBA is going to operate on a global level. If the NBA in America is 3rd to football and baseball, and probably even further down the line if you include other sports (nascar and whatever else), how does he expect to compete in countries where priority #1 is soccer (football) which trumps everything basketball. Even rugby will take precedent in countries like France, and if the league wants a team in say London, it could be 4th in line against soccer, rugby, and cricket.
April 22nd, 2008 at 4:40 pm
“First of all, MOST of us are NOT talking about expansion. Second of all, unless you understand the situation fully…careful about taking someone elses team. Most people in this nation don’t know what is really going on here, and I am pretty sure that most of us don’t know what is going on with those two franchises. ”
I stand behind my comments on Memphis 100%.
April 22nd, 2008 at 4:43 pm
Per what Brian said earlier, everyone is “pissy” today. Of course we are, they just announced this approval on the move what, 4 days ago? The emotions are still pretty raw right now. I wonder what things will look like in a month, once some feelings cool off a bit, and that mid-June court date is looming. If the NBA has squirmed about the idea of court thus far, let’s see what the next few weeks bring us.
I’m simply going to trust Slade Gorton. He’s not going to sell us out. Given his track record, there is no way I’m going to doubt him at this point.
Something else scared me a little. I have a relative that is into big business lease laws and he has been saying for months that Seattle will win, but, the legal precident isn’t strong for making a tenant stay through a lease. I know this isn’t Costco or Boeing or Microsoft, this is a very unique business. But you have very little experience to lean on in how disuptes over leases have played out.
By the way, does it even matter what I think? It kind of hit me this afternoon, talking with some friends about what we can do, but this battle is going to be fought by high-powered attorneys. I can rail about the liars and the injustice of it all, I can lose sleep about it, I can look at Youtube video of Shawn or GP in the glory days. But the players in this aren’t going to listen to me. Boo-Hoo, right?? But the legislators didn’t listen to their citizens that they represent when they had the opportunity teed up for them, instead putting their own re-election fears in front of what over 90% of people calling and e-mailing asked for. What a frustrating time to be a Sonics fan.
Anyway, I trust Slade is going to do the right thing for Sonic fans!
April 22nd, 2008 at 4:46 pm
“Even rugby will take precedent in countries like France, and if the league wants a team in say London, it could be 4th in line against soccer, rugby, and cricket.”
Only because they don’t have a team there. If they had a franchise and the atmosphere of it all….it would change.
April 22nd, 2008 at 4:47 pm
I’m surely going to get a lot of crap for saying this. But I think many on here have allowed their passion to cloud their judgment and skew their view of things realistically. We are so involved in the mess, that we can’t see outside of it. Too many here are allowing their anger to get the best of them. Seriously guys. I am angry and mad as well. I want to fight these bastards to the end and beat the crap out of them too. But you don’t get anywhere in this world fighting fights that you don’t have a shot in. We can act like fighting the league and Clay is the best thing to do to stand up for ourselves. But to me, if we fight and get nothing, we lose worse than if we play the rigged game and get something.
It’s like candidates for president. They all campaign, spend $, do what they got to do. But once it becomes painfully obvious that they don’t have a realistic chance to win, they drop out of the race. It doesn’t mean that they wanted to, or that they didn’t mean what they said earlier. Just that they are forced to be honest about the overall situation. They are better off in the end, picking their battles and realizing what is best for them. They could settle for being a senator or whatever they are, or they can fight to the bitter end when it is a lost cause and do nothing but lose $ and suffer. That is the case with us. We at some point need to be realistic as to what truly is best for us in the end.
There is a reason that many people outside of SOS are beginning to throw out the possibility of making a deal in order to secure a team for the future. They aren’t are passionately rabid as the members of this blog. The love and the passion is great guys. But it also gives us a false sense of reality sometimes. As far as we all are concerned, our cause is so valid, so righteous, we really shouldn’t lose. But like I said earlier, the game we are playing, the fight that we are fighting, is rigged. We can either be ignorant, foolish people who continue to play at the rigged card game and lose all our money. Or we can honestly assess our odds and decide to play the game the way it is. Realize that it’s rigged, and that winning the entire jackpot might not necessarily be possible. Maybe a smaller victory in the end is all we can ask for.
AGAIN, you still do not fold up and quit NOW. But to say, “ALL OR NOTHING!” to me is extremely foolish, short-sighted and myopic.
I really do not mean to offend anybody here. The people on this board and who make up SOS are amazing and awesome. Not too many in this stupid city have near the passion that people here do. It just pains me when I see people making it an all or nothing issue. That doesn’t do us any good in the end of this thing. It’s the whole making lemonade out of lemons thing. You do what you can do. But once you realize that you can’t, you make the best of it. A fight for righteousness against a big bad evil empire is all and cute. But when it’s all said and done, nobody outside of our little group will care or remember it. That’s just the way it is.
April 22nd, 2008 at 4:47 pm
If anything, this just shows that the NFL is still the dominant force in Professional Sports. It is the only game that is not truly global, and yet, in the end, it trumps the NHL, MLB, and NBA.
April 22nd, 2008 at 4:50 pm
In this case you can blame everyone. its a moot point to calculate which one deserves the most blame, but you can definitely blame Shultz. Regardless the do-nothing mentality of our state legislature, Shultz was the one to put this franchise in the hands of Bennett.
in another sad news, my man Shaun Alexander is released today by the Seahawks.
I’ve always supported him including his later years. Best of luck Shaun. You’re simpy the best RB we have in Seattle history
April 22nd, 2008 at 4:53 pm
You know it’s weird, on my way into work this morning all I was thinking was about Slade’s Comments in The PI. I was thinking about the Sonics, Hornet’s, and OKC. Then just as I’m pulling into work my wife calls me and ask me to go to U of U Hospital to check on her Aunt who had just had a Massive Stroke last night and was close to death.
Her aunt had lived with us the last 6 months recovering from an earlier minor stroke and going thru rehab, in fact she went home to her own home exactly 1 month ago. Well today she passed away.
Now what does this have to do with anything? I don’t know. But what I do know is a lot of us, including myself, have compared losing The Supes to losing a family member. You know what there are some paralell’s. I’ve felt shock, disbelief, heartache, grief, anger, frustration, and pain.
But… unlike my aunt’s death we still have hope. Hope is eternal for us until the trucks actually pull up and move the team to OKC. So I see what Brian and Senator Gorton are saying. Let’s get the NBA and Clay to the table let’s show them how leaving The Sonics here and Giving Clay and OKC a Playoff Calibre Team is worthwhile.
No one would be stealing a team from New Orleans. If you look hard and I mean HARD at the number’s New Orleans will always struggle with the NBA. It’s in the best interest of B-ball Fans everywhere to move from a struggling market that has struggled twice now to a market that is begging for basketball. If the only way to convey this message to the NBA is by getting them to the negotiation table then say what you have to to do that.
I’m kinda rambling so I’ll stop but Slade is an intelligent guy who is 2 for 2 in saving Big League Sports in Seattle. Let’s let him work.
April 22nd, 2008 at 4:53 pm
It’s been a big disappointment in Charlotte-it’s NOT the same and they have a state of the art new arena-I JUST DON’T KNOW
April 22nd, 2008 at 4:58 pm
Charlotte wasn’t a 41 year old city. They had a couple exciting years with LJ and Zo, and that was it.
April 22nd, 2008 at 4:59 pm
I’m surely going to get a lot of crap for saying this. But I think many on here have allowed their passion to cloud their judgment and skew their view of things realistically. We are so involved in the mess, that we can’t see outside of it. Too many here are allowing their anger to get the best of them. Seriously guys. I am angry and mad as well. I want to fight these bastards to the end and beat the crap out of them too. But you don’t get anywhere in this world fighting fights that you don’t have a shot in. We can act like fighting the league and Clay is the best thing to do to stand up for ourselves. But to me, if we fight and get nothing, we lose worse than if we play the rigged game and get something.
It’s like candidates for president. They all campaign, spend $, do what they got to do. But once it becomes painfully obvious that they don’t have a realistic chance to win, they drop out of the race. It doesn’t mean that they wanted to, or that they didn’t mean what they said earlier. Just that they are forced to be honest about the overall situation. They are better off in the end, picking their battles and realizing what is best for them. They could settle for being a senator or whatever they are, or they can fight to the bitter end when it is a lost cause and do nothing but lose $ and suffer. That is the case with us. We at some point need to be realistic as to what truly is best for us in the end.
April 22nd, 2008 at 5:00 pm
There is a reason that many people outside of SOS are beginning to throw out the possibility of making a deal in order to secure a team for the future. They aren’t are passionately rabid as the members of this blog. The love and the passion is great guys. But it also gives us a false sense of reality sometimes. As far as we all are concerned, our cause is so valid, so righteous, we really shouldn’t lose. But like I said earlier, the game we are playing, the fight that we are fighting, is rigged. We can either be ignorant, foolish people who continue to play at the rigged card game and lose all our money. Or we can honestly assess our odds and decide to play the game the way it is. Realize that it’s rigged, and that winning the entire jackpot might not necessarily be possible. Maybe a smaller victory in the end is all we can ask for.
AGAIN, you still do not fold up and quit NOW. But to say, “ALL OR NOTHING!” to me is extremely foolish, short-sighted and myopic.
I really do not mean to offend anybody here. The people on this board and who make up SOS are amazing and awesome. Not too many in this stupid city have near the passion that people here do. It just pains me when I see people making it an all or nothing issue. That doesn’t do us any good in the end of this thing. It’s the whole making lemonade out of lemons thing. You do what you can do. But once you realize that you can’t, you make the best of it. A fight for righteousness against a big bad evil empire is all and cute. But when it’s all said and done, nobody outside of our little group will care or remember it. That’s just the way it is.
April 22nd, 2008 at 5:17 pm
There is a reason that many people outside of SOS are beginning to throw out the possibility of making a deal in order to secure a team for the future. They aren’t are passionately rabid as the members of this blog. The love and the passion is great guys. But it also gives us a false sense of reality sometimes. As far as we all are concerned, our cause is so valid, so righteous, we really shouldn’t lose. But like I said earlier, the game we are playing, the fight that we are fighting, is rigged. We can either be ignorant, foolish people who continue to play at the rigged card game and lose all our money. Or we can honestly assess our odds and decide to play the game the way it is. Realize that it’s rigged, and that winning the entire jackpot might not necessarily be possible. Maybe a smaller victory in the end is all we can ask for.
April 22nd, 2008 at 5:18 pm
AGAIN, you still do not fold up and quit NOW. But to say, “ALL OR NOTHING!” to me is extremely foolish, short-sighted and myopic.
I really do not mean to offend anybody here. The people on this board and who make up SOS are amazing and awesome. Not too many in this stupid city have near the passion that people here do. It just pains me when I see people making it an all or nothing issue. That doesn’t do us any good in the end of this thing. It’s the whole making lemonade out of lemons thing. You do what you can do. But once you realize that you can’t, you make the best of it. A fight for righteousness against a big bad evil empire is all and cute. But when it’s all said and done, nobody outside of our little group will care or remember it. That’s just the way it is.
April 22nd, 2008 at 5:34 pm
Well, the last time I checked part of reality is sticking to your principles. Reality is…this is going to set a precedent. So, part of this has to be selfless, part of this has to be for OTHER fans, of OTHER teams who will be forced to deal with this in the future. IF you want to, you can bring reality…but it doesn’t look like it. Not to mention, we aren’t presidential candidates, and this isn’t over…there is a difference between dropping out when you are officially out of things and dropping out because you didn’t poll well in idaho, a year before the primaries.
April 22nd, 2008 at 5:40 pm
‘But when it’s all said and done, nobody outside of our little group will care or remember it. That’s just the way it is.”
If I did things JUST because other people “cared’ or remembered, then I would lack character and integrity. I do things because of integrity, because of principle, because of conviction. You do what is right because it is right, not because it is convenient.
April 22nd, 2008 at 6:15 pm
Maybe this is wishful thinking. But:
Suppose that it really is impossible for the NBA to bring a franchise to Seattle, and Gorton knows it. Maybe, just maybe, he’s calling Stern’s bluff and will use it in the negotiations.
If the NBA can’t relocate an existing franchise and the owners won’t authorize an expansion, Stern can’t put a promise in writing to expand or relocate to seattle. When the June trial rolls around, suppose Gorton has offered a reasonable buyout on the lease in exchange for the team colors, team history, and a promise to put a franchise in Seattle within the next 4 years. If the remaining 75 million needed for the Key is found, then we’ve got local ownership offering to step up and make “Sonics 2.0″ profitable under an existing stadium proposal. (Big if, but we all know that no stadium means no team).
Now suppose Stern turns this offer down because he knows the NBA can’t put a franchise in Seattle in the foreseeable future. He is caught lying again, and his vast, irrational hatred of Seattle is exposed for all to see. He then faces a trial that will make hundreds of private documents public AND he can’t count on the press to keep parroting his lies about Seattle’s supposed unreasonable demands for a pound of flesh–we just want our history, a fair buyout on a lease that Bennett himself agreed to, and a new team in four years. His hints that we could get a new team if we only made nice are exposed as lies designed to extract the team with minimal concessions. Taking the league to court becomes justified in the public’s eyes.
Imagine how the owners will like their franchises’ prospects for price appreciation after the suit–and their public refusal to grant Seattle even what the NFL gave Cleveland–and David Stern’s repeated lies during negotiations–and the impending departure of all the “OKC Panhandlers” stars for larger markets.
All of a sudden, the NBA’s gambit to make other cities pay up for a new stadium every decade alienates fans, makes cities unable to trust their promises, and saddles the league with one more unfixable market. And unless Clay Bennett is concealing a vast and unsuspected reservoir of intelligence, OKC is going to become Clippers East/ Memphis South–hence, the name “Panhandlers.” They’ll draft good players and send them on to real teams when payday rolls around. The league’s business model gets even worse, and it becomes more obvious that Stern and the owners have done it all to themselves.
If the NBA can’t set up a new team in Seattle, there’s a good chance they’ll have to find a way to put a team in OKC at a later date without moving the Sonics just to avoid a even bigger train-wreck down the road. Bennett realizes his players will bolt and his franchise might fold or–horrors–relocated again. Stern realizes that his credibility might drop to nil. In the eyes of the world we’re perfectly justified in humiliating them in court, and none of the owners want that.
If the NBA can commit to expansion or relocation in Seattle, then great, we’ve secured a consolation prize; if they can’t meet even this minimal and reasonable request, then the league might make a deal with Bennett to keep the Sonics here.
If Washington could only recall and replace the numbskulls in Olympia! The only real problem I see with this scenario is that damn stadium–and that’s been the show-stopper from the beginning!
April 22nd, 2008 at 6:27 pm
Joshu@ I agree with you. I have been a Sonic fan since the beginning. My sister baby sat Slick’s son Donald I realize you must at times do business with people who lack scruples and honesty. However the problem with doing a deal with the devil is just that, you are doing a deal with the devil. Today it looks good tomorrow it looks like something else. It seems that the biggest chip we have and the one that can do the most good for all is forcing them to honor the lease. No deals unless you let go of our team. Even if it only establishes that the league and all it’s owners going forth will understand the costs involved in trying to do it. Those talking of the high road should look a bit higher. No City that does not wish to have it’s team depart or get robbed of half a billion dollars or more should have to. Not just Seattle. If losing the team we may lose anyway is the cost I will painfully swallow the pill knowing some future life long fan does not have to go through it as well. I like lemonade as well as the next person. However the chances of a lemon being the source of the yellow substance produced from working amiably with these people is as likely as Bennet making a good faith effort. How can Stern speak of scorched earth approaches while at the the same time facilitating a scorched earth ending for key areana and seattle. He as lied to us, on us, on our mayor and to our state senators. And through it all we have tried only to keep our team. I have always believed fighting is a last resort but when you do fight then fight to win that has been Stern’s, Bennett’s & the Leagues approach so should it be ours. I have never made a bully understand my point of view while he was punching me. Everytime they were much more understanding after they understood the cost of what they were doing.
“I do things because of integrity, because of principle, because of conviction. You do what is right because it is right, not because it is convenient.” Very well said
April 22nd, 2008 at 6:32 pm
Does anyone know why my last post is in moderation? Is there some sort of maximum word limit?
April 22nd, 2008 at 6:32 pm
Nevermind.
April 22nd, 2008 at 7:07 pm
william wallace did wind up being hanged, drawn, and quartered. and robert the bruce — you know, the guy in the movie who was portrayed as the nasty politician — did wind up ruling an independent scotland and beating the pants off of the english the next time they fought.
as not accepting that teams aren’t owned by fans, that’s an admirable sentiment. i know what you mean (i think) in that fans are the ones who make a huge — often liftime — emotional investment in a team. fans are the ones who imbue the team with meaning, and who, ultimately, make it profitable. but fans are not viewed as owning the team by the ones who decide where to put the teams. that is incontestable.
in re. sticking to your principles, i would gently suggest that, if you’ve been rooting for a professional sports team for any length of time, those principles have already been contaminated by the way sports is run. take cleveland browns fans. they ‘discovered’ the franchise relocation scam when it hit their town. prior to that, they thought ‘hey, that doesn’t affect us because we have a special relationship with our team.’ well, they did have that special relationship, but it didn’t make them immune FROM THE LEAGUE’S PREFERRED WAY OF DOING BUSINESS.
david stern didn’t just suddenly turn into a power-mad, hands-off-relationship-with-the-truth, ‘my will is the only way,’ commish. he’s always been that way. as he’s aged, he’s become more ugly about it. but if you’ve been a fan at any time during his tenure, and followed how some other cities have been jerked around, then you know this to be true.
as for fans not supporting a team because it’s ill-gotten gains. this has NEVER occurred, for the precise reason that the broad mass of fans view pro sports as a fun entertainment vehicle, and they love their hometowns, and when somebody plunks a team down in their hometowns, they say, “hey, fun is here, hooray, we’re happy.” expecting them to say, “we’re sorry, but gosh, another city deserves this more than we do” is like expecting crocodiles to turn vegetarian and start helping zebras across the river.
all i’m saying is that if you only start analyzing this problem as a stand-alone story involving seattle and the supersonics and oklahoma and bennett and stern, then you’re missing the context. this is like one act in a very, very, very, very long play.
and all of my hunches tell me that it won’t be the final act. seattle isn’t going to revolutionize the way pro sports deal with cities. david stern can’t be shamed — he makes too much money for his employers, the owners. they are shameless because they are literally incapable of feeling shame. and the media will NEVER walk away from covering the sports or become mainly hostile, because the sports are vital sources of programming. you might get bob ley to do an ‘outside the lines,’ but right after that will be steve smith prattling on about the upcoming series between team a & team b.
i do not think seattle, the fans, or anyone in this saga can suddenly reorient the sports universe and start the planets spinning in another direction. what i do think is that slade gorton can get in there and fight the way that nba owners understand and respect; he can bully and punch and gouge and threaten and kick and apply thumbscrews. . . and sue. . . and then, because his job is to get things done and not to serve a repository for people’s hurt feelings, he can GET US THE TEAM WE DESERVE. i hope it’s this iteration of the supes. but if it’s another team, i’ll take them, as long as the keep the legacy intact.
can’t get over missing kevin durant? wanna bet? i went to ut for grad school and love the guy. but players come and go. the team — that’s where the durability should come in.
go get us a team, slade. make sure they’re called the supersonics. hang up the banners, retire the numbers, put the records on hold until the new team starts playing. those who won’t watch don’t have to. but the kids coming up who’d enjoy a ride like i recall back in ‘79 have a right to it.
April 22nd, 2008 at 7:08 pm
Sympathies to you and your family 4020vision.
April 22nd, 2008 at 8:52 pm
“2 lame duck seasons in Seattle only bothers impatient OKC people. It does not bother the NBA or Stern.”
I don’t understand why so many people, including SOS, apparently, believe this to be the case. It would be A F-ING DISASTER to the league. I repeat:
1. Get arena funding
2. Win City v. PBC case
3. Force Clay to sell
That is how it’s done! If they lose that case, the league will NOT be able to withstand a City that has a new arena plan, crazy-rich local owners wanting to buy the team, and a former owner suing to undo the sale.
I sense we’re folding in the light of the failure to get the arena done and then the BOG vote, which was never, ever going to go our way. Of all times, this is the time to hang tough!!
April 22nd, 2008 at 9:08 pm
we’re losers
April 23rd, 2008 at 2:37 am
http://tinyurl.com/6d3btz
never give up….