Betting The Mortgage
Posted on Wednesday, April 23rd, 2008 at 6:51 am by Brian Robinson
So feel free to respond to todays news in BOTH this thread and the below thread. There are some different points and I expect to have a busy day.
ESPN article on Schultz’s lawsuit having some teeth.
I am so sad that I can’t get myself to talk NBA Playoffs. Dwight Howard with 29 and 20. Sheesh. The kid is an absolute animal. I love watching him play.
I will tell people that I am yet again in the “scheduled to testify” camp and as such have to maintain some discretion on this stuff. The BCS suit obviously is gaining steam and there is a lot of positive momentum behind it. We’re going to have a busy job gathering together our paper trail of communication with Bennett and I can tell you I am stunned at how far back this things goes and how much SOS has put into it. You wouldn’t believe the number of e-mails that went back and forth in 2007. Its a wonder I’ve held my company together throughout.
So here is the question, and it goes back in some ways to the question yesterday of whether we should go all in or take a potential expansion team.
At what point do the consequences of failure become so great even the remote chance of it becomes something you must avoid?
In the case of the team my theory is that, a complete loss of basketball is something that I cannot bear. Feeling the weight of all these kids, all these fans, and my own judgment if we woke up one morning and there were no Sonics at all would be a loss which to me is unacceptable, just a letdown for everybody involved. It is something that has to be avoided at all costs. I have to look at it and say, if I think I have an 80-20 chance of winning, but that 20% chance has dramatically increased stakes then I have to really weigh whether I want to play the game.
It’s betting the mortgage. If you were in Vegas and someone offered you 80-20 odds to double your money with a $2000 bet you would probably take it. You have way more chance of winning than losing. If however the only money you had in your checking account was the $2,000 you intended to spend on your mortgage you have to look at the upside and downside. The upside is a extra 2 days in Vegas, maybe a TV. The downside is default of your house, your wife potentially leaving you because you’re so damn irresponsible, and in some ways your life falling apart. At that point you look and say “I don’t care if it were 90-10. I can’t risk this.
So the question is, at what point does this become “betting the mortgage” for Bennett and Stern? Obviously the finances are not the big issue, rather the credibility and the precedent. Even to this day Clay Bennett could quit this plan and in the future laugh and joke about how “I would have done anything to bring basketball to my home town. I went to the yards boys but it didn’t work out.” There would be people who would judge him but most would simply think he was a ballsy guy who made a move for his hometown. That changes if he suffers a legal defeat.
If Bennett feels like Schultz has a 20% chance of winning he risks having an asterisk beside his name forever as the man found guilty of committing fraud. He runs the risk of setting a historical precedent in the highly visible world of professional sports and of soiling his name in a crooked transaction. This corporate and legal news would cross from ESPN to the Wall Street Journal. It would be analyzed on Fox News and CNN. It would essentially define him.
Keep in mind that Bennett, as the CEO of Dorchester Capital does, for a living(not that he needs it) a couple of things. First he gets investors to give him their money because they trust his ability to make sound business decisions and invest it. Second he takes that money, finds ideas and ventures to buy into, and convinces those people that they should allow him to buy significant shares of their company, again because not only does he have the money, but that he is a guy they want to be associated with as they build their business. He tells them that he will be more supportive, more hands off, hands on, whatever if they go with his investment VS another capital firm.
How is he affected if a court actually rules that he committed fraud and breach of good faith in a $360 Million transaction? It is one thing to have people say you are crooked in another city, while you are a hero in your own. It is another to have a judge actually find it that way.
Another issue which will almost assuredly come up is that of perjury and contempt of court. Bennett and Stern are scheduled for court depositions in very short order. If they thought Chris Daniels applied some pressure in their press conference then they will have to consider whether they want to testify to good faith in a case against the city attorney, only to risk being found guilty of fraud and bad faith in another case. I would be interested to know from our internet legal advisers what the potential consequences of this will be. Could he be found guilty of a crime? How heavily does 10 days in jail weigh on a billionaire? Regardless I can tell you that Bennett has a very short window in which to weigh these consequences.
This is the way in which Howard Schultz suit is infinitely different than the City’s case. In the case of the city, even if a judge rules against Bennett there is only the definition of the lease at stake. He contested a point and the judge ruled in his favor. He could recover from that with only the financial hardship. In the case of Schultz, even if he views his odds of winning at better than even he must be keenly aware of the high risk of failure.
April 23rd, 2008 at 7:01 am
At this point, the amount of anger/hostility that I have against the NBA and Bennett, I am all in on Schultz’s lawsuit.
April 23rd, 2008 at 7:10 am
Legally, I’ve got serious doubts that the Professional Basketball Club, LLC will be found guilty of fraud by any court. Although I’m definitely not a lawyer, it’s seemingly an uphill battle for Howard Schultz — who’s still the most vile, despicable scumbag in this whole story — to retain the Seattle SuperSonics.
While Clay Bennett and his cronies didn’t make an enormous effort to keep the SuperSonics in the Puget Sound region, he nevertheless attempted to have a $500 million state-of-the-art, multipurpose facility built in the area — even though his proposal suggested that it should be financed entirely by public funds — thus, with regards to the legalities here, he’s apparently got that in his corner.
All things considered, I think that we should focus on the safer bet by securing an expansion team — which’d be ready to start play to begin the 2010-2011 season — however, I realize that most of you overemotional, irrational newcomers have a problem with that scenario. That’s your problem, though.
April 23rd, 2008 at 7:12 am
“At this point, the amount of anger/hostility that I have against the NBA and Bennett, I am all in on Schultz’s lawsuit.” {Otto}
That so-called “anger” and “hostility” equates to an irrational thought process, which discredits your viewpoint.
April 23rd, 2008 at 7:33 am
as we discussed last night…
it is not his actions after the sale that are in question… (by Shultz)…
it is his deception of intent prior to the transaction…
Howie’s belief was (why he sold the team to Bennett) that he was truly intent on keeping the team in Seattle… those emails show otherwise…
the question is how on Earth did Howie ever really believe Bennett?…
April 23rd, 2008 at 7:36 am
http://tinyurl.com/6d3btz
video to get you going….. Sonics get off the plane 4/17 1AM
April 23rd, 2008 at 7:42 am
I think at this point Bennetts defense almost has to be the “he should have known we were lying” one.
“If he expected an effort in excess of what we put in over Renton then he was both unrealistic and naive. I was already on record as saying I would do anything to bring professional basketball to OKC.”
These e-mails are just damning though. As mentioned what seems to be at question is not Bennetts efforts but rather his intentions and let me tell you there is going to be a lot of interesting testimony on that front.
April 23rd, 2008 at 7:44 am
“as we discussed last night…
it is not his actions after the sale that are in question… (by Shultz)…
it is his deception of intent prior to the transaction…
Howie’s belief was (why he sold the team to Bennett) that he was truly intent on keeping the team in Seattle… those emails show otherwise…
the question is how on Earth did Howie ever really believe Bennett?…” {AD}
It’s questions like those that make me wonder whether or not Howard Schultz is just filing this lawsuit as an expensive, yet seemingly effective — for a fair percentage of y’all are buying into it hook, line, and sinker — publicity stunt. Since Schultz is a guy who reportedly cares a lot about his public image, it wouldn’t surprise if this whole ordeal is being done solely to bolster everyone’s perception of him.
April 23rd, 2008 at 7:50 am
The side letter hs a very interesting sentence in it. It is the last sentence of the first paragraph. He promises to assume all the obligations of the lease. One of those obligations is to play all home games in the Key through 2010.
However, 2 days prior to the sale he basically said that if they got an arena deal and HADTO STAY in Seattle, at least they would have a “sweet flip”. It is not too hard to take the leap from that statement to how much “effort” he would put into getting an arena done. The last thing he wanted was a new arena.
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/ABPub/2008/04/23/2004367575.pdf
It is pretty evident tha Howard didn’t trust Clay. So people actually trust their money with this guy to invest? Good luck keeping your clients after this trial.
April 23rd, 2008 at 7:54 am
I’ll say again. I think Howard had better attorneys than Clay.
April 23rd, 2008 at 7:54 am
I would think that one of Clays biggest fears should be of being convicted of perjury if he goes to court and does his song and dance show that he performed last Friday.
Stern has been smart enough to not address the emails for fear of being caught in a lie. As close as Stern is, persumably, to Bennett I have the sense that he has been distancing himself from the Claymister.
Bennett is going to get a team. He has done too much dirty work for Stern not to, unless he takes things too far. I don’t think Stern is going to allow things to get that far. He has to realize that the more he allows Bennett to communicate the more problems its going to cause the NBA and potentially himself.
Get the funding for the remodel and things will fall into place. Stern will have his out then.
April 23rd, 2008 at 7:57 am
I think your comment should be stated as, “he should have known that we would make a proposal, and he knows what the response will be, and that’s all we were going to do”
I still think this lawsuit makes for interesting laywer water cooler talk but that is about it. The first thing the judge will consider was why did Shultz sell to an out of town owner who made it clear that having a team in OKC was his mission, if he really was concerned about the team leaving? Just to make a few more bucks? There goes his credibility and his arguement.
After Bennett supplies testimony about the reponse he received the day of his first press conference from political leaders in Seattle, the judge will get a sense of the caustic enviromment that existed BEFORE Bennett even had a chance to make people angry about his arena demands.
April 23rd, 2008 at 7:59 am
“I think at this point Bennetts defense almost has to be the “he should have known we were lying” one.” {Brian Robinson}
As Lester Munson wrote within his article for ESPN — which you cited to open this thread — this is the defense that ought to be put forth by the Professional Basketball Club, LCC.
“They will demand a quick dismissal, hoping to bring it to an end before it becomes an obstacle to their relocation to Oklahoma City, which was approved Friday by the NBA. In motions to dismiss, they will claim American law does not permit a court to void a sale. And Bennett likely will argue his e-mails are innocent and have been misconstrued. He will also list all the efforts he made to build a new arena for the Sonics in the Seattle area. He hired an architect, he hired lobbyists and he put together a scheme for an area in suburban Renton, Wash.”
That, to the best of my knowledge, should be enough to keep the Professional Basketball Club, LLC from having to reliquish the Seattle SuperSonics.
Again, that’s the pessimist/realist in me.
April 23rd, 2008 at 8:01 am
Producer,
I am not sure any of that matters. All that really matters is whether or not he lied about his intentions. The rest is all background noise.
If the stories are correct, he could have made more money selling to the San Jose group.
April 23rd, 2008 at 8:03 am
“He will also list all the efforts he made to build a new arena for the Sonics in the Seattle area. He hired an architect, he hired lobbyists and he put together a scheme for an area in suburban Renton, Wash.”
But that may actually cause him more problems than he really wants. If he does that, which is after the transaction and not pertaining to the entire case, it gives a clear opening in the civil case to depose everyone hired by the PBC. If you hired a lobby firm, but told them not to actually lobby…would you want that firm being called in to your defense?
April 23rd, 2008 at 8:03 am
My head hurts.
Trying to reconcile Schultz’s nature has been a challenge to say the least. I had great hopes when he purchased the team only to see him retain (and PROMOTE!) Wally Walker, immediately begin bad-mothing Key Arena and the lease, start a fight with Gary Payton, and generally lose any credibility as someone who really cared about Seattle or the Sonics.
Naturally I believed he was in the Sonics-to-OKC scam from the beginning so this is as surreal as anything I have ever seen in my life.
I always admired Starbucks and how he ran the company. While not a fan of a $4 cup of coffee, the fact that they give medical insurance to most employees and support them in other ways led me to believe Schultz has a social conscience. People who work for him seem to genuinely like him.
He ran the Sonics more like Joseph Stalin though. His bulldog-like attacks on local politician pretty much doomed his ability to ever get an arena deal and his petulent attitude toward anyone who did not follow his strict instructions (GP, Mac 10) alienated many long time fans.
Now seeing the lawsuit could it be he was really that naive? People that gullible rarely build multi-billion $ International empires.
But it is also very clear that Satan Bennett lied over and over. He continues to lie with a straight face. He is Evil personified and even the most saavy business person puts a lot of stock in a person’s perceived credibility. If Satan looked Howard in the eye and said yes, I will do everything possible to keep the team in Seattle that may have been good enough when teamed with the side letter.
And I do believe SOS will have a huge impact on all of this. Keep your powder dry Brian.
April 23rd, 2008 at 8:04 am
“I’ll say again. I think Howard had better attorneys than Clay.” {Brian Robinson}
Yeah, I’ll totally agree with you there.
“It is pretty evident tha Howard didn’t trust Clay. So people actually trust their money with this guy to invest? Good luck keeping your clients after this trial.” {Guess Who}
On the other hand, it’s pretty evident that Howard Schultz is a double-dealing scumbag or, perhaps, he lacks enough business acumen and pure intuitiveness to detect another man’s true intentions.
April 23rd, 2008 at 8:06 am
“I am not sure any of that matters. All that really matters is whether or not he lied about his intentions. The rest is all background noise.”
Overturning a sale because of “intentions” is a extremly high bar. I don’t know of a settled case that meets these standard. Clay Bennett can document without a doubt the money time and effort he spent trying to get a deal. Again, as a fan I can call what he did, squat, but it is reasonable and nothing more than what Shultz got done.
April 23rd, 2008 at 8:06 am
whats interesting though… as a side note…
is the “spin” or “perspective” one has based on where one acquires information… or perhaps where one is geographically
meaning…
the focus here (in OK) seems to be not on Bennett… but, that Seattle is mudding the water… that they are desperate… that they are just bringing in fancy lawyers to complicate the issue…
its kind of the “nobody likes lawyers and lawsuits defense”…
that seems to be the public perspective anyhow… but remember, here… they’ve allready had the “mission accomplished” speach on the deck of an aircraft carrier… so to speak… so the counter-punching continues…
April 23rd, 2008 at 8:08 am
Is it a victory for us to have a new team with the Sonics history and heritage attached to it or is it a victory to have the current collection (KD, Jeff Green, Sam Presti and the draft picks)?
If Clay get to keep the current collection and rebrand it as another team does Clay ultimately win out and do we lose even though we may have the prospect of another team without the future that this team holds?
It seems like an expansion team is not in the cards. So we would have to take a team from another city. Do we want another city to go through what we have gone through? Granted a team like Memphis does not have the history in the city like the Supersonics do in Seattle, but we would still be taking a team from another city.
We have support from all of these other NBA towns because we are fighting the “Good Fight”. Is it still the “Good Fight” if we take another cities team?
April 23rd, 2008 at 8:09 am
“I can call what he did, squat, but it is reasonable and nothing more than what Shultz got done. ”
I should have said “less”…
April 23rd, 2008 at 8:11 am
The possible sale to Ellison and San Jose is a huge factor. If indeed there is a written offer for more than the Oklahoma Village offer that was turned down it will show that Schultz’s intent was credible, and that a true best effort was a deal breaker.
April 23rd, 2008 at 8:12 am
Win or lose, there will be a lot of blood shed by PBC and possibly the NBA
April 23rd, 2008 at 8:13 am
“But that may actually cause him more problems than he really wants. If he does that, which is after the transaction and not pertaining to the entire case, it gives a clear opening in the civil case to depose everyone hired by the PBC. If you hired a lobby firm, but told them not to actually lobby…would you want that firm being called in to your defense?” {Scott}
I assume that the lobbyist firm was paid with the intent of doing a job — which they probably did to their highest capabilities — no matter whether or not Clay Bennett cared too much if they accomplished anything of actual merit.
Plus, it’s now known in text that Bennett would’ve been willing to sell the team to a local buyer if the Washington State Legislature had fully funded his proposal for constructing the King County Events Center.
That should aid Bennett’s case, as it’s tangible proof that he didn’t technically plan to relocate the Seattle SuperSonics from the onset.
April 23rd, 2008 at 8:16 am
Producer - why are you so bent on defending a lying, cheating, sack of clay that is Bennett?
Regardless of what Howard thought was going on, I’m doubtful we’ll ever see any “I knew he was going to move those suckers [Sonics] and make the city and state pay for dissing me” emails from Schultz to anyone.
Clay lied, delt in bad faith, AND left a damn email trail of his misdeeds. I am anxious to see what federal judges have to say about the business deal between Howard and Clay… lying and not following through on your part of a legit, legally-binding deal should warrant some sort of legal repercussion(s).
Go get ‘em Howard!
SAVE THESE SONICS!
April 23rd, 2008 at 8:17 am
Intent is probably not written into many contracts but was in this case. This makes the case unique and those of us who are not lawyers and lawyers who do not work in this area probably are simply shooting in the dark a bit.
Of course, I will continue to shoot in the dark with everyone else.
April 23rd, 2008 at 8:19 am
“The possible sale to Ellison and San Jose is a huge factor. If indeed there is a written offer for more than the Oklahoma Village offer that was turned down it will show that Schultz’s intent was credible, and that a true best effort was a deal breaker.” {Free}
Legally, the potential sale of the Seattle SuperSonics to Oracle CEO Larry Ellison is probably irrelevant to this case. However, it indicates that Wally Walker — who, if I recall correctly, owned a five percent stake in the Basketball Club of Seattle, LLC — wanted to broker a sale that’d make him the largest possible amount of money. Dammit, Walker is a loser.
April 23rd, 2008 at 8:19 am
AK1984: “On the other hand, it’s pretty evident that Howard Schultz is a double-dealing scumbag or, perhaps, he lacks enough business acumen and pure intuitiveness to detect another man’s true intentions.”
Can we stop trashing Howard Schultz, please? We get what you think of him–you say it exactly the same way in every comment you make on the subject.
It doesn’t matter what the guy’s personality is–what he’s doing now is a big, big deal. He could have just stayed in the shadows and hoped his involvement in this issue would just blow over–and let’s face it, outside basketball fans, I don’t think many people really care.
What exactly does he have to gain from this action? He’s not asking for a financial settlement. He’s not asking to own the team again–rather that the team should go to a trust (and from there, ostensibly, to Ballmer). He’s no doubt spending a lot of money on this. As much good PR as this is giving him (and I’d argue that it’s good PR that won’t actually sell more coffee except to a few basketball fans), it’s also drawing more attention to his role in selling the team.
I have no idea what his motives are, but it’s a ballsy move, it helps us immeasurably, and we should be properly thankful.
April 23rd, 2008 at 8:25 am
I don’t think any legal mind can predict the outcome as this case is unprecedented. We are a witness to history either way it turns out. If I can read into BR’s comments though, we might not get to see the final play as Bennett has a reputation to be concerned about. How much is this worth to him?
April 23rd, 2008 at 8:25 am
“Producer - why are you so bent on defending a lying, cheating, sack of clay that is Bennett?”
Simple, he’s from the Texas/Oklahoma area….
April 23rd, 2008 at 8:27 am
“The possible sale to Ellison and San Jose is a huge factor. If indeed there is a written offer for more than the Oklahoma Village offer that was turned down it will show that Schultz’s intent was credible, and that a true best effort was a deal breaker’
Good point, although it could work the other way. Why not sell to a local team for a bit less if your main motivation was to keep the team here.
“Regardless of what Howard thought was going on, I’m doubtful we’ll ever see any “I knew he was going to move those suckers [Sonics] and make the city and state pay for dissing me” emails from Schultz to anyone.’ How do you know? just because the have not come to light yet….
April 23rd, 2008 at 8:27 am
“However, it indicates that Wally Walker — who, if I recall correctly, owned a five percent stake in the Basketball Club of Seattle, LLC — wanted to broker a sale that’d make him the largest possible amount of money.”
You mean the same Wally Walker that voted AGAINST the sale to PBC? That same guy?
Would really help if you had a clue what you’re talking about.
April 23rd, 2008 at 8:27 am
“Q: Schultz sold the team in 2006 and collected $350 million. How can he now say the sale must be unwound? Does he have any chance of success?
A: Yes, he does have some chance of success. The lawsuit relies on damning e-mails written by Clay Bennett and others in the Oklahoma group which indicate they never intended to stay in Seattle. Schultz and Yarmuth are relying on legal principles that might work. The key legal terms in the suit are “fraud,” “voidable” and “constructive trust.” The e-mails indicate Bennett’s group was misrepresenting its intentions and could easily qualify as proof of “fraud.” Two days before the sale, in a highly damaging e-mail, Bennett told one of his partners if an arena deal was eventually sealed in Seattle, they could do a “sweet flip” and just sell the team and leave Seattle.
A fraudulent sale can be “voidable,” although the legal requirements are stiff. And the “constructive trust” sought by Schultz and Yarmuth is a brilliant idea that will give the judge a mechanism to take the team from Bennett and permit its sale to a Seattle-area buyer. When Bennett and his lawyers read the lawsuit, they will realize they face serious difficulty answering what Schultz and Yarmuth have put together.”
- Lester Munson ESPN article
April 23rd, 2008 at 8:31 am
“I assume that the lobbyist firm was paid with the intent of doing a job — which they probably did to their highest capabilities — no matter whether or not Clay Bennett cared too much if they accomplished anything of actual merit.”
And I assume that they were paid to make it look like they were doing a job.
I have emails from representatives stating that there was zero lobbying effort in Olympia from Bennett’s group. That no one had lobbied on thier behalf as to why they deserved the 400 million dollars they were asking for, instead mentioning that they’d recieved more attention from SOS than anyone else associated with the project.
The question is when everyone is brought before a judge, and the lobby firm tells thier story and Bennett tells his, who is going ot hve more credibility? Knowing that there’s emails out there showing Bennett clearly lying to Stern among others.
April 23rd, 2008 at 8:32 am
Regardless of how this all turns out in the end, my one conclusion is that these billionaires have less common sense than my mentally challenged sister.
Who the hell sells a sports franchise to an out-of-town ownership group, with the expectation that said ownership group will act in “good faith” to not relocate the team elsewhere?
Who the hell uses trackable e-mail rather than untapped phone conversations to contact his ownership partners to discuss sensitive material that could legally bite them in ass at a later date?
Seriously, these guys come across as f_cking morons.
April 23rd, 2008 at 8:32 am
Brian…
“…Its a wonder I’ve held my company together throughout.”
others who have been on this site longer than I may allready know… and really its none of my business… but curiosity has the better of me… what is “my company”?… and again none of my business so ignore my question if you feel otherwise to say.
regardless… your (and others) effort has been amazing.
April 23rd, 2008 at 8:35 am
Ak1984: I really don’t care if my viewpoint is discredited in your eyes, it is what it is.
April 23rd, 2008 at 8:35 am
“…Its a wonder I’ve held my company together throughout.”
I’d think its because of your great staff….
April 23rd, 2008 at 8:37 am
“I have emails from representatives stating that there was zero lobbying effort in Olympia from Bennett’s group. That no one had lobbied on thier behalf as to why they deserved the 400 million dollars they were asking for, instead mentioning that they’d recieved more attention from SOS than anyone else associated with the project.” {Scott}
If that’s the actual case, then Clay Bennett is a lazy, inept dumbass for not ordering the lobbyist firm to at least make it seem like they were putting forth an adequate effort at their supposed job.
What’s with the lack of foresight from tools like Bennett and Howard Schultz?
April 23rd, 2008 at 8:37 am
The NBA product is shit right now. Anyone been watching the playoffs lately? Yeah, that Spurs-Suns game was awesome, but the telecast is a shit show of advertising. Just watch how they zoom in on LeBron’s shoes before he takes free throws, or when the announcers say how they rode to the game in a Dodge, or the Iron man commercials featuring Ray Allen shooting 3s and Kobe “flying” like iron man. This has gotten disgusting, and Stern is responsible.
On the one hand, this helps me rationalize my commitment to stop keeping up with the NBA if the Sonics leave. At the same time, I know I can’t fully follow through on this. What if my son starts playing basketball? I’ve changed my commitment to stop watching basketball as long as Stern is commissioner.
I think our best option here as Sonics fans is to follow Slade Gorton and use the court cases as leverage to get a new team. That way, Stern will still be responsible for the repercussions of the stupid business decision to have a team move to OKC. In five years, without winning, an OKC team will be in dire straights, and looking to move again, I guarantee it. Let Stern take the hit. Meanwhile, we may have a chance to settle by getting a new team (called the sonics and while keeping all our banners), and maybe by that time, a new commissioner. It worked when Slade did this with the Pilots, which became the Mariners.
April 23rd, 2008 at 8:39 am
“Ak1984: I really don’t care if my viewpoint is discredited in your eyes, it is what it is.” {Otto}
I respect that.
April 23rd, 2008 at 8:41 am
I own and operate a real estate investment and development company. We buy and remodel buildings, managing leases, etc. Lots of flexibility luckily. Good staff helping me out.
Scott is the obvious weak link. He spends too much time on the internet talking basketball.
April 23rd, 2008 at 8:44 am
“Simple, he’s from the Texas/Oklahoma area…. ”
Well you’re getting closer…pretty soon I will living in a whole region at once.
April 23rd, 2008 at 8:46 am
DJ- “hey Beerman, this is good. In ‘78 I went 0 for 15 in game 7 of the finals—the next year I was MVP!”
Bill “The Beerman” Scott——”I never stopped yelling and leading the cheer–As a matter of fact-I still am and you and I and Mr. Shulman have the best seats in the house!!”
April 23rd, 2008 at 8:47 am
We can speculate about Bennett’s defense. There will be some form of response filed, an attempt to get this tossed early. But that’s almost a side point now. I think ‘guest’ said the soonest this could get to trial is 12-18 months. Assuming it is not dismissed early, the lawsuit itself effectively nails the Sonics down for the next two seasons, if not longer. I doubt Bennett intends to go through anything like that, especially with the uncertainty that he can even have the team when the case is over (which could be years with appeals).
Clearly the shoe is now on the other foot. For the past few days, we were trying to figure out what might work to get us a future in the NBA. Now I’m fairly certain that it’s Bennett who is wondering. As of today, I would make a fairly substantial bet that there’s a conversation soon between Bennett and Stern that goes, in effect, “if we pull the plug in Seattle, what assurances can we have of an NBA team in OKC.”
At some point, Bennett and company will cut their losses…
(Right, Clay? Thought you would agree…)
April 23rd, 2008 at 8:51 am
If the only real evidence Schultz’s lawsuit cites is an email written two days before the sale referring to the possiblity of a “sweet flip,” that’s far from overwhelming evidence of fraud at the time of sale. The far more damning actions occur nearly a year later. Still, Howard said he’d file suit and he did. I commend him for doing what he can to right this insufferable wrong.
April 23rd, 2008 at 8:52 am
I just got off work and read the article. Havn’t read any posts yet so sorry if I’m way off subject of what your talking about. I just have to say, H-ll,Fu-k Yah! I told you not to give up on this team. Great fffnnn news fellas. I will say that yesterdays posts got pretty divided between trying to get a fake sonics team or fight till the end for our team. I must say I understand what everyone that felt securing A TEAM was thinking. I probably would be pissed in a few years without a team or any chances, but if you figure in this teams future and then figure in all th BS that has been going on and all the ffffnnnn ups and downs we have been on. You just have to fight for whats right. Clay Clay and Stern and possibly the entire fffnnnn league is CROOKED! If it takes us risking our future in the NBA to find out whats really going on in the NBA and if we win we keep Durant and OUR TEAM, then I say RISK IT! I LOVE HOWIE! S.OUR.S.
April 23rd, 2008 at 8:52 am
“However, it indicates that Wally Walker — who, if I recall correctly, owned a five percent stake in the Basketball Club of Seattle, LLC — wanted to broker a sale that’d make him the largest possible amount of money.”
You mean the same Wally Walker that voted AGAINST the sale to PBC? That same guy?
Doesn’t that make the point? That he would have rather sold for more money to Ellison?
Maybe this was the first time in his life that Walker acted in an altruistic manner. My feeling is he made so much money in his failed career that he felt guilty about making gobs more.
But more to the point was his relationship with Goldman Sachs. He was a broker for them prior to coming to work for the Sonics. I really question their “best effort” in getting a sale done to a local buyer. It never made sense that a local group could not have been formed. I think Goldman just got lazy.
April 23rd, 2008 at 8:54 am
If the court sells the team at auction Bennett could lose alot of money. He has run the team into the ground. The bids would not be $350 million. This should weigh heavy on his mind.
April 23rd, 2008 at 8:56 am
Patches, see above. He will cut his losses way before then. I don’t see a serious alternative to Bennett selling the team if the Schultz lawsuit remains alive…
April 23rd, 2008 at 8:58 am
Wally would have preferred to keep the team. He was never in favor of the sale.
You guys can say whatever you want about him. Whether you think he should have traded for Jim MacIlvaine or not does not make him a bad person. His former employees considered him one of the kindest and most supportive bosses they’ve ever had. people throughout the industry and media like and enjoy him.
It is so easy to take personal shots with limited information. I try to avoid it but feel the need to offer some defense. Wally Walker never wanted this sale, actively fought it, and is a really good person. Criticize the way he ran the team if you want but quit acting like you knew him or have any idea about his motivations or actions.
April 23rd, 2008 at 8:59 am
“Doesn’t that make the point? That he would have rather sold for more money to Ellison?” {Free}
It means that former Seattle SuperSonics CEO & President of Basketball Operations Wally Walker, who was also a minority partner of the Basketball Club of Seattle, LLC, apparently wanted to sell the team to an out-of-town owner in Oracle CEO Larry Ellison — whose admitted intent was relocate sell the franchise to San Jose, California — for reportedly $75,000,000 more money than the Professional Basketball Club, LLC paid for it.
That’s a black mark on Walker’s character.
April 23rd, 2008 at 9:00 am
Ya know I accused Schultz of being naive, but in all honesty Bennett’s naivete may be unsurpassed. These damning emails show a complete lack of sophistication. Ultimately it will be his own stupidity that will cost him million$.
April 23rd, 2008 at 9:04 am
“You guys can say whatever you want about him. Whether you think he should have traded for Jim MacIlvaine” {Brian Robinson}
Actually, Wally Walker was the one who traded Jim McIlvaine. It, however, was Walker’s original signing of McIlvaine to a seven-year, $35,000,000 contract that was a mistake.
All in all, though, the Seattle SuperSonics were only on the hook for two years and $6,600,000 of McIlvaine’s contract; thus, it wasn’t exactly a financial albatross for the organization.
April 23rd, 2008 at 9:04 am
“Doesn’t that make the point? That he would have rather sold for more money to Ellison?”
Except he voted no on that one too.
Your hatred of everything Wally is allowing you to jump to conclusions.
April 23rd, 2008 at 9:06 am
“Wally Walker never wanted this sale, actively fought it, and is a really good person. Criticize the way he ran the team if you want but quit acting like you knew him or have any idea about his motivations or actions.” {Brian Robinson}
I guess that I’m wrong about Wally Walker.
What, by the way, was the deal with Larry Ellison?
April 23rd, 2008 at 9:07 am
“Except he voted no on that one too.
Your hatred of everything Wally is allowing you to jump to conclusions.” {Scott}
Okay, I was wrong about Wally Walker.
I’m right about the Jim McIlvaine situation, though, so that makes it even here.
April 23rd, 2008 at 9:08 am
I don’t think we ever know anyone’s true motivations, all we can do is judge their actions and results. I never cared what Wally was thinking. I don’t care what kind of family man he is. I only cared about his obvious inability to successfully run the Seattle Supersonics.
We are in this position today because of his poor performance as an administrator. Perhaps the biggest case in point is the horrific job he did in coordinating the arena “effort.” I have posted many times the incredulous responses from Legislators about “no business plan, really no plan at all” when discussing his proposal.
This set us in this downward spiral that we find ourselves in. I don’t really give F*** about whether or not he feels bad about it or not.
April 23rd, 2008 at 9:10 am
If I recall, Stern introduced Clay to Howard as a potential purchaser who would keep the team in Seattle. Think there might be some discovery to do there? And the whole Hornets issues looms in the background. Dirty laundry indeed
Our recent history is littered with “captains of industry” who have let questionable business dealings undue them. Why should the NBA be different?
This is merely the end of the beginning not the beginning of the end.
April 23rd, 2008 at 9:14 am
“In the case of the team my theory is that, a complete loss of basketball is something that I cannot bear.”
Brian, I don’t blame you for feeling that way, and with your tireless effort you have long earned the right to take and advocate any position you like. Also, on behalf of Sonics fans I apologize that yesterday it probably felt like we took a collective shit on your head in response to your comments. I look at it this way: yes, we all want basketball. But at this point, with the way the NBA has treated Seattle and Sonics fans, accepting anything on their terms simply will not do. There is too much momentum, Gregoire and Sims aside, to tolerate any wishy-washy-ness. Casper Milque-toast-ness. Even Schultz has grown a spine out of seemingly nowhere.
Our best shot is to stand firm with these allies, old and new: Nickels, Gorton, Schultz, Ballmer, et al. Don’t blink. They (Stern, Bennett) are the ones beginning to waver. They are back on their heels regardless of the inevitable BOG vote (even 28-2 is a big statement, btw). Plus, we have no idea what effect this is having on Swift-Boat Queer-Bashing Aubrey and the rest of their foul little gang. But you can bet they ain’t thrilled. Aubrey doesn’t strike me as the type of guy who likes to be gagged, or to be held up for ridicule by a bunch of tree-huggin libruls up in Grungy Seattle.
But I digress. My point is: stand firm now, and when they are pushed to the point of truly losing in court and the court of public opinion, then MAYBE we’ll listen to their offer. But they won’t offer anything substantive if they don’t have a very real fear of getting their asses handed to them. Slade’s comments may very well have been a tactical response to Stern’s “pound of flesh” missive, but the press is taking his “we know we’ve lost the Sonics” comment and running with it. There had to be a better way to go about that. Add that to a moment of apparent capitulation by our SOS hero, and you had yesterday’s freakout. You’ve had our backs for so long that we just didn’t know how to feel when you let up a little.
1. find the 75 mil
2. win the lease case
3. Clay goes away
This will work!
April 23rd, 2008 at 9:18 am
It always comes down to who acted more stupidly and who has the best lawyer. I won my court cases by not saying anything and letting other people”hang themselves”. I also had much superior attorneys and our strategies worked. I don’t think Wally has much to do with this because it was Howard who took less and went to all the trouble to make Bennett sign binding papers.
Ak I don’t know if you have been reading my posts as these sites have been flooded over the last few weeks. I give you major props and acknowledge that your arguments for Nick and Earl were right. without their huge contributions we wouldn’t have won those last few games and regenerated this crowd, although I disagree with your evaluation of KD being overated.
After all he’s just a boy still and has shown he will be dominate
when he gets older, wiser, and fills out. I am one who values you as another Sonics fan. Brian, i love your work in this, but don’t want another team. If this is it so be it, no more NBA for me.
April 23rd, 2008 at 9:23 am
The Mcilvane disaster wasn’t all about the money, it was what pissed off Kemp to leave Seattle. That was the turning point for this franchise.
April 23rd, 2008 at 9:26 am
“The Mcilvane disaster wasn’t all about the money, it was what pissed off Kemp to leave Seattle. That was the turning point for this franchise.” {montanasupesfan}
That’s the truth.
April 23rd, 2008 at 9:30 am
I’m a lawyer and my quick take on Howard’s suit is similar to Lester Munson’s on ESPN.com. Fraud, lack of good faith, etc. are difficult to prove, but Schultz is off to a very good start. The latest email from two days before the sale when read in conjunction with the other emails, McClendon’s statements, etc. form a very compelling case that Clay had no intention of staying in Seattle from the very beginning. Accordingly, there was no “meeting of the minds” on that term of the deal.
The question then becomes whether a desire to remain in Seattle was a material term of the contract between Schultz and Clay. And, again, Schultz is putting a good case together. The news regarding Ellison could be very important on this point. If Schultz passed up on more money from Ellison because he thought (however foolishly) that Clay would be more committed to Seattle, that is good evidence of the materiality of that term of the deal.
As Munson said, it is almost certain that there will be a motion to dismiss and a motion for a preliminary injunction filed relatively soon. If Howard survives the dismissal motion (which he should) and gets the preliminary injunction, he has Clay by the balls.
April 23rd, 2008 at 9:32 am
I believe that Shultz could have made more money selling to the San Jose group, but didn’t because they wanted to move them and didn’t agree to the side note of keeping them in Seattle. Clay Boy DID AGREE to the side note.I think anything involving the San Jose group and this lawsuit is in favor of Shultz.
Good post MSF. I agree 100% on Durant. 19 YEARS OLD. Clutch as HELL.He will be in the same group as Lebron, Kobe, and whoever else is in the elite group in a few years. FOR SURE!
April 23rd, 2008 at 9:38 am
Hector:
If Howard survives the dismissal motion (which he should) and gets the preliminary injunction, he has Clay by the balls.
I love it
April 23rd, 2008 at 9:38 am
“The Mcilvane disaster wasn’t all about the money, it was what pissed off Kemp to leave Seattle. That was the turning point for this franchise.”
Which brought us Vin Baker! Then the lockout. After the lockout Ackerly started losing $$ and sold the team to Schultz. Schultz could not whip his fellow Dems in Olympia to subsidize his franchise that was floundering because of the new CBA caused by the lockout. Thus Schultz could not keep his eye on the ball and lost Nate after the only successful season under his regime. Olympia still says no!!! Sells team to Clay Clay.
AND HERE WE ARE!!
Dominoes dude Dominoes
April 23rd, 2008 at 9:42 am
Oh, I forgot. The lockout was caused by the fact that players like Jimmy Mac where getting ridiculous contracts without any years of service or proof of talent!!!! I forgot a domino!!
April 23rd, 2008 at 9:46 am
Iff i was Kemp i would be pissed off about a 7 foot backup stiff getting waaay more money than me, after what he did for the franchise, along with GP of course.
April 23rd, 2008 at 9:47 am
The best deal? Slade will tell the NBA that we will stop the lawsuit if we get to keep these Sonics and that Bennett will have to wait for a new team. The different between the Pilots and Sonics is that the Pilots was already gone when we filed the lawsuit against the AL. These Sonics are still here. I would fight to keep these Sonics than getting a fake team.
April 23rd, 2008 at 9:47 am
I still think this lawsuit makes for interesting laywer water cooler talk but that is about it. The first thing the judge will consider was why did Shultz sell to an out of town owner who made it clear that having a team in OKC was his mission, if he really was concerned about the team leaving? Just to make a few more bucks? There goes his credibility and his arguement.
- Hmmmm, the point that people sure seem to never throw in when they use the old “Howie sold to an outside ownership group
defense is that he could’ve gotten much more money from Larry Ellison…this simple point immediately invaldiates the argument so lets just stop trying to use it.
April 23rd, 2008 at 9:49 am
“He will also list all the efforts he made to build a new arena for the Sonics in the Seattle area. He hired an architect, he hired lobbyists and he put together a scheme for an area in suburban Renton, Wash.”
- I’m gonna go on record right now and say that one of the next bombshells we are going to see from this case is just how little Bennett spent on the new arena proposal. I’m pretty sure anyone can steal an old Arena design and present a PPT proposal.
This really doesn’t matter cause we aren’t really focusing on what happened AFTER the sale…but, I truly believe you are going to find out he spent basically peanuts on his proposal…and it will be another PR hit.
April 23rd, 2008 at 9:50 am
AK, you left out the second part of that.
“But it is unlikely Bennett will succeed in obtaining a quick dismissal.”
April 23rd, 2008 at 9:56 am
Legally, the potential sale of the Seattle SuperSonics to Oracle CEO Larry Ellison is probably irrelevant to this case. However, it indicates that Wally Walker — who, if I recall correctly, owned a five percent stake in the Basketball Club of Seattle, LLC — wanted to broker a sale that’d make him the largest possible amount of money. Dammit, Walker is a loser.
- In a case that is entirely based on intent…why on earth would the Ellison sale be irrelevant??
Who the hell uses trackable e-mail rather than untapped phone conversations to contact his ownership partners to discuss sensitive material that could legally bite them in ass at a later date?
- Well our country’s great intellgence agencies seem to do this all the time…everyone treats email without the respect they should.
April 23rd, 2008 at 9:58 am
“Iff i was Kemp i would be pissed off about a 7 foot backup stiff getting waaay more money than me, after what he did for the franchise, along with GP of course.”
McIlvaine never made more money than Kemp- the first year of the contract- McIlvaine 3.0 million, Kemp 3.3 million.
Why do people keep perpetuating this myth? Also, I think Kemp was more pissed about the huge (over $10 million/year) contract that Payton got that off-season.
April 23rd, 2008 at 9:59 am
If Howard get the injunction he’s asked for, Bennett sells.
April 23rd, 2008 at 10:00 am
“In a case that is entirely based on intent…why on earth would the Ellison sale be irrelevant??” {Myk}
Yeah, I didn’t make too much sense there.
April 23rd, 2008 at 10:01 am
Hector, Schultz has already asked for the injunction….
April 23rd, 2008 at 10:03 am
If there are more damaging emails in the holster do you think they would release them or do you think they would be in behind the scenes contact with CB/DS telling them what they have and offering to save them some face if they drop their move? I guess I’m just wondering if the parties are talking behind the scenes.
OT: Liberty Mutual bought Safeco. Not sure how long the Safeco Field naming rights contract is but once its over do you think they’d rename it Liberty Field?
April 23rd, 2008 at 10:06 am
If this has been posted and already discussed I apologize but I haven’t seen it. True to Brian’s point - the relocation approval is only for next year. Clay tried to get it approved for 3 seasons to run to the end of the Key Arena lease but was blocked by a team that cited the NBA Constitution. That team was the New Orleans Hornets.
Read to the bottom of both links. I think True Hoop is taking Slade’s comments out of context but that is just my opinion. With all the talk about PR stunts I think Gordon’s comments were just that in the wake of Sterns scorched earth comments. Invite them to the table and see where we stand - no hard in that at all.
http://tiny.cc/2gBLk
http://tiny.cc/KQ13u
April 23rd, 2008 at 10:06 am
“The Mcilvane disaster wasn’t all about the money, it was what pissed off Kemp to leave Seattle. That was the turning point for this franchise.”
- Ya…I mean it really made sense that we shouldn’t sign anyone else because we worried that Kemp was so stupid that he would get mad about not being able to renegotiate his contract per the rules of the NBA.
You can blame the McIlvane disaster just as much on Shawn Kemp as you can on Wally Walker. He is the idiot who complained about something that simply could not be fixed and WOULD HAVE been fixed if the team had been able to do so by the NBA.
Do people really argue that we shouldnt have looked to sign any FAs during this time period because it would’ve made Kemp mad?
April 23rd, 2008 at 10:08 am
If there are more damaging emails in the holster do you think they would release them or do you think they would be in behind the scenes contact with CB/DS telling them what they have and offering to save them some face if they drop their move? I guess I’m just wondering if the parties are talking behind the scenes.
- I think there are about 10 more of these little “stunts” in the city’s pocket. The fact that people keep acting like Schultz just laid all the evidence on the table at this point seems a bit silly.
April 23rd, 2008 at 10:09 am
A lot of people bring up Bennett’s possible defense that he “spent money by hiring lobbyists, an architectural firm, etc…” However, I just don’t buy it. If there is enough evidence that Bennett never had any intention of keeping the team here, then any amount of money spent on this supposed effort will just be seen as “going through the motions” to make an appearance of making an effort here.
As Hector said above, if Schultz could prove that Bennett’s effort and desire to keep the team here was a material term, the emails shown so far are strong evidence to refute that.
Remember, the primary claim is one of fraud in the inducement. There will be a lot more attention paid to emails sent before contract formation. The supposed “effort” made by Bennett could be negligible
April 23rd, 2008 at 10:11 am
I have a comment in moderation so until it gets released I will just give the highlights - links to the material are included in the original post.
Brian and others who have mentioned this are right - the relocation approval is for next season only. Clay tried to get approval for 3 seasons to get him to the end of the lease but was blocked by none other than the New Orleans Hornets citing the NBA Constitution. It is referenced in Percy Allen’s Blog and True Hoop.
Of course - during the press conference Stern and Clay tried to portray a united front but peel back a few layers and it sure doesn’t look very united at all.
Very interesting indeed. Get an arena package together soon and this team stays, IMO.
April 23rd, 2008 at 10:21 am
Laporbo,
Safeco Field could become Liberty Mutual Field as soon as the sale of Safeco the insurance company is completed. (Witness Pac Bell, SBC, AT&T in San Francisco.)
April 23rd, 2008 at 10:22 am
HELL NO WE WONT GO HELL NO WE WONT GO. This team is meant to stay.There is no way that we can go through all of this and still have a great chance at keeping the Supes unless it was meant to be.
April 23rd, 2008 at 10:23 am
This just in from the P-I (whew):
A spokesman told KIRO Radio that Safeco will retain its name and a strong presence in Seattle. And the name stays on Safeco Field.
April 23rd, 2008 at 10:23 am
o the hell sells a sports franchise to an out-of-town ownership group, with the expectation that said ownership group will act in “good faith” to not relocate the team elsewhere?” - AK1984
I believe it was Crow that mentioned a rumored bylaw (not public info) that stipulates that a team owner cannot sell to a local buyer without a “satisfactory” arena, or arena plan in place.
On another topic, I usually think your posts are pretty informative and well thought out AK, but this whole idea that pessimism and realism are positively related is downright retarded. Besides, though you’re obviously a very smart guy, you’re a middle class, white, twenty something and you’re talking about NBA basketball. Please got off the realist bullshit.
That’s an excuse for those who haven’t lifted a finger to keep the team here, because from day one you geniuses knew exactly how this whole tangled web would unravel; yeah, right. Everybody’s a goddam lawyer all of a sudden and apprently no lawsuit stands a chance when it’s against Clay Bennett and his crack team of e-friends.
If anyone’s a realist they’d know only one thing for sure: we adon’t know jack shit about how things will traspire over the next few years.
April 23rd, 2008 at 10:24 am
Safeco Field could become Liberty Mutual Field as soon as the sale of Safeco the insurance company is completed. (Witness Pac Bell, SBC, AT&T in San Francisco.)
- One of the biggest reasons the whole naming rights things is a bunch of bs…I’m not a traditionalist by any means…However, it is really dumb that anytime I pick up a new video game and get to pick a stadium I want to play Football/Basketball/Baseball I don’t know where at least 5 of them are actually located.
April 23rd, 2008 at 10:25 am
http://tinyurl.com/6d3btz
New Sonics video to watch. This highlights the Soninc’s return to Seattle on 4/17 at 1 AM and the loyal fans who came out to support. There is also a nice ending..
Sorry for the spam but I want everyone to have the chance to see this…Thank you.
-Zonics
April 23rd, 2008 at 10:29 am
I think Clay’s stance that his “I’m a man possessed” comment was about getting something done in Seattle could really hurt him in his court cases. Looking at the email trail, that’s obvious to anyone with half a brain that’s not what he meant. I think things like that will be very damaging to his credibility in front of a judge.
April 23rd, 2008 at 10:31 am
Brett, We are mere inches from the OKC move for 2008-09 being dead. Bennett would have to get the Schultz lawsuit dismissed quickly AND win the city’s lawsuit. Or get a settlement from the city, which is not an option short of agreeing to sell now, IMO. Given that, Bennett and his partners now have to decide whether to try to weather the lawsuit storm and unknown financial losses, or maybe to seek another strategy for OKC. Meanwhile, it also means we may have at least another year to work things out (including the arena). Time is starting to work for our side. The forces of evil are pushed back, if not in outright retreat yet…
April 23rd, 2008 at 10:38 am
PDX — re: the preliminary injunction, I saw that he included that in his request for relief in the complaint, but he’ll still have to file a motion in support of the request that addresses the test one must meet to get a PI.
April 23rd, 2008 at 10:40 am
Hector, Thanks for the info. Can’t wait to read all the court filings to come. Should keep us entertained all summer, and then some…
April 23rd, 2008 at 10:41 am
“Iff i was Kemp i would be pissed off about a 7 foot backup stiff getting waaay more money than me, after what he did for the franchise, along with GP of course.”
Revisionist history … I get so tired of explaining this. Shawn Kemp had NOBODY to blame but himself for the situation he was in. His agent totally misread the market, locked him down to a fixed salary before the market exploded and Kemp got left out in the cold. Additionally in those days Shawn needed money badly. There was nothing the Sonics could have done to renegotiate. Kemp did it to himself.
April 23rd, 2008 at 10:46 am
Revisionist history … I get so tired of explaining this. Shawn Kemp had NOBODY to blame but himself for the situation he was in. His agent totally misread the market, locked him down to a fixed salary before the market exploded and Kemp got left out in the cold. Additionally in those days Shawn needed money badly. There was nothing the Sonics could have done to renegotiate. Kemp did it to himself.
- Exactly…if McIlvane had ended up being a good player Kemp still would’ve been angry and still would’ve demanded a trade. Like I said…you can fault Walker in the execution, but not in the plan…the fault in the plan is 100% on Kemp’s back.
April 23rd, 2008 at 10:52 am
The Kemp myth ranks right up there with other Seattle sports myths:
- Randy Johnson purposely tanked to get traded
- Dave Kreig was a horrible quarterback
etc.
April 23rd, 2008 at 10:54 am
IT is worth the risk. I know the odds are not in our favor but based on principal and trying to end this nba extortion precedent, it is worth it. Besides, Stern will not be commissioner past 2010.
April 23rd, 2008 at 10:55 am
One of the reasons Dave Kreig had great stats as a Seattle QB was Steve Largents sticky fingers.
April 23rd, 2008 at 11:00 am
One of the reasons Dave Kreig had great stats as a Seattle QB was Steve Largents sticky fingers.
- Ya cause he wasn’t successful in other cities…his best ever rating was actually in Detroit…next argument?
April 23rd, 2008 at 11:08 am
What is the next step for the lawsuit? Does a Judge have to agreed that the lawsuit is valid?
April 23rd, 2008 at 11:14 am
Who knows why Kemp lost focus and didn’t live up to his potential to be an all-time great. A combination of the factors mentioned above and who knows what else. Maybe he was just tired a lot.;) But he would have made a whole lot more money if the Sonics had won a title or two during those years. If you take what we now know about the referees and Stern, we know the league was basically rigged for Jordan and the cash cow his cult of personality created. Maybe Shawn was disheartened because he already knew what we have only now come to fully comprehend, that the league was going like boxing or wwf!
Stern of Oz —”nobody gets to see the wizard noway nohow”
April 23rd, 2008 at 11:16 am
KBA — Clay will likely move to dismiss the suit which is quite unlikely to succeed. Howard will move for a preliminary injunction. That will be huge — if Howard gets it, Clay is almost certainly stuck here until Howard’s case goes through trial.
April 23rd, 2008 at 11:18 am
As yet, no one has really discussed the request for a receivership set out in Howard’s complaint.
That seems, to my mind, an amazingly deft piece of legal positioning. Any comments?
April 23rd, 2008 at 11:19 am
“Safeco Field could become Liberty Mutual Field as soon as the sale of Safeco the insurance company is completed. (Witness Pac Bell, SBC, AT&T in San Francisco.)”
that would suck. “The Lib”? it always should’ve been Hutchinson Yards. “The Hutch”!
April 23rd, 2008 at 11:20 am
Hector, what’s the likely timeline to all of these?
April 23rd, 2008 at 11:20 am
“That seems, to my mind, an amazingly deft piece of legal positioning. Any comments?”
deft, or the achilles heel of the suit.
April 23rd, 2008 at 11:20 am
I agree with Softy. How can they recover from Aubreys quote?
1) Best effort clause in contract and side letter to try for 1 year to keep in Seattle, signed by PBC
2) Aubrey (PBC) - “We didn’t buy the team to keep in Seattle”
3) Case closed in Howards favor
Why isn’t it that simple?
April 23rd, 2008 at 11:21 am
Myk, I wasn’t arguing with you. If I remember right his highest receiption stat was 65% right here in Seattle, I believe he averaged 50 some percent career wide.
April 23rd, 2008 at 11:25 am
If I were Clay, I’d be talking to Ballmer ASAP. If he doesn’t hurry up, he could lose the OKC market to George Shinn and the Sonics altogether.
April 23rd, 2008 at 11:28 am
Oklahoma City group could simply sell the team in a ’sweet flip,’ and leave Seattle and the Oklahoma City group ‘would still be in good shape for something in OKC,’ ” according to the lawsuit filed in U.S. District Court in Seattle.
- I still am surprised more people have not focused on what I consider a much worse part of the new email. This simply shows that there MUST’VE been collusion between Bennett and Stern. What is odd is that if there was some sort of behind the scenes agreement to create a expansion franchise, why is that off the table for OKC now??
April 23rd, 2008 at 11:32 am
Myk Says:
What is odd is that if there was some sort of behind the scenes agreement to create a expansion franchise, why is that off the table for OKC now??
It is off the table until we have an arena here.
That is Sterns ultimate goal.
April 23rd, 2008 at 11:33 am
Lemon…how is it an achilles heel? It gives the judge a means to delay making a decision (which many judges choose to take) but in a manner that would give the NBA a huge black eye, i.e., a team in receivership.
April 23rd, 2008 at 11:39 am
Kingdome, The Shinn issue has been just sitting there with little attention for a while. I think that’s why the owners’ vote last week was not really great news for Bennett. He’s stuck with a year-by-year opportunity that can close if Shinn makes the right moves. Some folks have speculated that Shinn is the reason Bennett and company were so ‘possessed’ to get the Sonics to OKC as soon as possible. Their worst scenario is not getting the job done in Seattle AND Shinn makes his move on OKC. In that case, they are toast. No bragging rights about the NBA in OKC. No local hero status for them…
April 23rd, 2008 at 11:41 am
Stern is SOOOO stubborn.
He is doing all of this just to say “See, I told you Seattle would build a new arena one way or another. No one defies Sterno!”
April 23rd, 2008 at 11:42 am
“Lemon…how is it an achilles heel? It gives the judge a means to delay making a decision (which many judges choose to take) but in a manner that would give the NBA a huge black eye, i.e., a team in receivership.”
It also gives a more reasonable and flexible way to rescind the transaction by not requiring the team to be reaquired by the previous owners. I see Ballmer rubbing two fat, sweatty palms together right now.
April 23rd, 2008 at 11:45 am
Myk - great point!
April 23rd, 2008 at 11:48 am
fxyik — re: a timeline — it’s a bit difficult to say, but I’d imagine both sides will want to file their motions ASAP, so something should be filed in the next few weeks.
As for the receivership, I think it’s a very good move by Howard. It helps show that his concern isn’t unwinding the deal for his own benefit, but is to keep the team in Seattle. This supports (if only marginally) his argument that the keep-the-team-in-Seattle stuff was a material term of the sale agreement with Clay.
April 23rd, 2008 at 11:52 am
http://thesouthfloridafan.blogspot.com/2008/04/seattle-okc-alliance-proposal.html
April 23rd, 2008 at 11:52 am
myk i thought that exact same thing the moment i read that.
How the heck do you have a “sweet deal” without the help of the commish?
April 23rd, 2008 at 11:53 am
Thanks for all the info Hector!
I’ve got a feeling you’re going to be the most popular guy on this site for a while…
April 23rd, 2008 at 11:54 am
Doesn’t this article help to speak to intent and collusion by Stern and Bennett? It seems there plan was hatched way back in 2005.
http://newsok.com/article/3232536
April 23rd, 2008 at 12:06 pm
I hate to say it, but I’m in the all or nothing camp. We lose this team, we either get an expansion team, or some other cities franchise. I in no way will support another team from another city. I want to come to a NBA game where the home team is surely and purely “Our team”. This team has been “ours” for 41 years, there is no way I can pay money to a league that let that team be moved away to only steal another team and present it as “the Sonics”.
We need the league to be held accountable for it’s actions. We fix this mess the right way, and punish Clay for his actions. He keeps our team, and keep Durant & Green he wins plain and simple. I don’t care if a new team comes in here as early as next season, Clay wins. He purchased this team to move it, and if that plan failed he would just sell it. If he bought the team under those pretenses it would be his right, but that’s not the case.
It is painfully obvious to anybody he bought the team to move it, and he DID NOT make any sincere effort to keep the team here. His plan was plain and simple. Buy the team, dump the roster make it as bad as possible, create an environment where nobody cared about the team. Stump a fool’s plan for a new arena where even more people would show more disdain for the Sonics. Final step offer a buyout of the lease, get approval for relocation from the BOG, and start playing basketball in OK city for the 2008-09 season. He thought it would be a slam dunk, and boy was he wrong. He truly underestimated this fan base.
I love basketball as much as Brian, and want to be able to take my daughters to Sonics games for years to come. But I just can’t stomach it if it’s done the wrong way. Clay takes this team with him back to Oklahoma and I am done. I have tried to grasp the idea of accepting an expansion team, but it just doesn’t sit well with me.
April 23rd, 2008 at 12:06 pm
It’s difficult to say what Stern knew when. My guess (and this is only a guess) is that Stern was using Clay to get an arena deal done in Seattle and promised him another team in OKC as a reward. Clay likely promised him that he really would try his best to get an arena deal done.
Now that it is clear that Clay had no intention of trying to stay in Seattle, Stern is likely not happy with him, but has no choice other than to defend him publicly for the time being. Privately, he’s probably expressed some displeasure to Clay. If only we had an arena deal in place, I’d guess the pressure on Clay from the league to sell would be enormous right now.
April 23rd, 2008 at 12:07 pm
The real thing Clay should fear at this point is getting an injunction in the Schultz case … the injunction would make it difficult for him to move the team until the Schultz case is settled.
Meantime Shinn could be itching to bail out of NOLA and into OKC in 09-10 and I suspect the rest of the owners aren’t going to be giving Bennett any favors after this fiasco.
April 23rd, 2008 at 12:07 pm
“Hundreds of people milled around. In search of quiet, Bennett stepped into a storage closet. And changed the course of Oklahoma sports history.”
Oh man - The most entertaining piece of the OK news article!
Thanks, Indyball
April 23rd, 2008 at 12:08 pm
Jesus Indyball those Oklahomos really talk Sh$t about Seattle.
April 23rd, 2008 at 12:09 pm
Maybe Clay was doing Sterns bidding and intended to get a Seattle arena. Perhaps it was getting the #2 pick (and franchise changing Oden or Durant) that got him greedy and sent him on another direction. Just as it was the #2 pick that got Nickels out of settlement talks early.
April 23rd, 2008 at 12:10 pm
It’s funny, but just imagine where we would be right now without Kevin Durant! He may actaully be the guy who saved our team.
April 23rd, 2008 at 12:12 pm
For anyone who enjoys the legal minutiae, here’s the test for obtaining a preliminary injunction:
“Preliminary injunctive relief is available to a party who demonstrates either: (1) a combination of probable success on the merits and the possibility of irreparable harm; or (2) that serious questions are raised and the balance of hardships tips in its favor.” A&M Records, Inc. v. Napster, Inc., 239 F.3d 1004, 1013 (9th Cir. 2001). “These two formulations represent two points on a sliding scale in which the required degree of irreparable harm increases as the probability of success decreases.” Id.
Here, it’s difficult to say what would “irreparably harm” the Sonics franchise, but I think Howard can make a good argument along the lines that allowing the team to leave even temporarily would so alienate the fan base and disrupt other relationships here that the franchise wouldn’t recover even if it came back.
April 23rd, 2008 at 12:16 pm
I am surprised that the media isn’t talking about New Orleans not selling out either playoff game. There were a lot of empty seats game one. Last night clearly had more people, but still not a sellout.
Come on George Shinn, move the Hornets to OKC!
April 23rd, 2008 at 12:17 pm
“For anyone who enjoys the legal minutiae, here’s the test for obtaining a preliminary injunction:”
Yes. Very interested in hearing a lawyers perspective from any angle on this. Thanks.
April 23rd, 2008 at 12:17 pm
The worst part of the MacIlvaine signing was it was the first indication of a strategy that the Sonics would continue to employ over the next decade with little success. That was the b’ball version of “moneyball” that took small statistical samplings and projected the players into stars.
MacIlvaine I believe led the NBA in rebounds per minute as did Calvin Booth. Rick Brunson led the Assoc in assist/turnover ration. Unfortunately none of these guys could play basketball. The only player chosen by this method that I can remember that we got improved play from was Brent Barry. The rest, Jerome James, Booth, et.al. were big failures financially and competitively.
April 23rd, 2008 at 12:18 pm
Chris H. at 8:19 - good word on Howard - I’m with you on this.
Howard made mistakes and selling to Clay was his biggest - but I do think he had better intentions than many believe all along the way.
I think he got frustrated with Stern & the NBA & with Seattle/Olympia political leaders at various points and just wanted out. He likley underestmated the financial problems with the lease and did not manage the political process well and he made a HUGE mistake with his loyalty to Wally Walker (the worst ever NBA GM outside of Isaiah Thomas).
But I think he cares about Seattle & genuinly wants the Sonics here and I think he may have even sincerley thought Clay wanted to make it Work in Seattle & would give it his best shot - and as an outside guy - in a weird way - maybe he could have a better shot at an arena than Howard’s group. That was his premise when he sold and I can see why it made some sense to howard who was clearly confused and astonished that the political leaders gave such little respect and support for his ownership group that was loaded with very loyal and influencial Seattle area leaders.
And for now - 3 cheers for Howard stepping up in this way.
Time to quit the Howard bashing. He is a huge friend of the SOS cuase today.
April 23rd, 2008 at 12:20 pm
“Now that it is clear that Clay had no intention of trying to stay in Seattle, Stern is likely not happy with him, but has no choice other than to defend him publicly for the time being. Privately, he’s probably expressed some displeasure to Clay. If only we had an arena deal in place, I’d guess the pressure on Clay from the league to sell would be enormous right now. ”
It’d certainly be another bullet in the gun … That’s why all the pantywaist dithering from the State infuriated me and ensured the current Governor will not get my vote nor that of hundreds if not thousands of other fans who expected leadership, not letters. If that piece had been taken care of the leverage on Clay would be enormous.
I can only imagine how pissed some of the other owners are at him right now. He has basically portrayed this situation as rosily as possible from the get-go and now here comes another flaming sh!tbomb on the NBAs doorstep.
Ding dong.
April 23rd, 2008 at 12:20 pm
KD is the truth, and needs to be OUR truth for years to come.
SAVE THESE SONICS!
April 23rd, 2008 at 12:21 pm
“I am surprised that the media isn’t talking about New Orleans not selling out either playoff game. There were a lot of empty seats game one. Last night clearly had more people, but still not a sellout. ”
Not that this is a surprise, but anyone seen the Hawks attendance in the Boston series? Brutal.
April 23rd, 2008 at 12:22 pm
“Time to quit the Howard bashing. He is a huge friend of the SOS cuase today.”
If this really is a PR stunt, then you’re making it a little too easy for him. We wouldn’t be here if it wasn’t for Howard Schultz. The only way he redeems himself in my eyes is if this lawsuit, in one way or another, leads to local ownership of the team.
April 23rd, 2008 at 12:23 pm
I would think if Stern was in on this since the beginning, we would see it via emails between the two. And if such emails exist and the city is just withholding them from public, Stern would still be added to the case. He hasn’t yet, so I would have to debunk that theory until there is more proof.
April 23rd, 2008 at 12:25 pm
I actually had a dream last night that David Stern resigned as the commissioner of the NBA.
This whole thing is really getting to me.
April 23rd, 2008 at 12:26 pm
“I would think if Stern was in on this since the beginning, we would see it via emails between the two. And if such emails exist and the city is just withholding them from public, Stern would still be added to the case. He hasn’t yet, so I would have to debunk that theory until there is more proof.”
Good point… I wonder if the city/powers that be are releasing these emails in order to try to convince Stern to give them a good reason to stop before they show something involving him…
April 23rd, 2008 at 12:34 pm
“Not that this is a surprise, but anyone seen the Hawks attendance in the Boston series? Brutal.”
I noticed that too, but Atlanta has 5,000,000 people and a large corporate base while New Orleans is sub 1,000,000 and has a corporate base smaller than Omaha.
April 23rd, 2008 at 12:34 pm
I originally thought Howard was incredibly Naive when he was negotiating for a new Lease/Arena. I mean has he not been paying attention to the Climate of Seattle Politics!?
But then when the Sale came down, I thought it all might be a clever ruse. “Here is a Team, teed up for a move.” A rare option in todays sports world, and worthy of paying a premium.
But the Contract Language and Side Letter are amazing. Perhaps Howard was just being Naive in his Arena demands initially after all. Or Perhaps he is the smartest Party in this whole fiasco. He sold the Asset, got his premium price, and now has the contract language to protect his legacy in his hometown.
I think it is ridiculously unfair to call out Howard for being Naive with regards to the Sale. He wanted to sell this Asset, yet he insisted this language be in the Contract AND a side letter. Would Howard have relented if Bennett insisted the terms be struck from the Contract?We’ll thankfully never know. Although if this case persists (and hopefully it does) I think we’ll find out about previous drafts of the contract and the side letter which may be very illuminative.
The “he (Schultz) should’ve known we were lying” defense will hold no water.
I think Clay’s defense will be a tricky dance that will ultimately prevail. The question is how much damage are he and Stern (collectively and independently) willing to suffer to get there.
The longer this goes on, the stronger our bargaining position. If a path emerges where the NBA(/Stern) could be placed under the microscope (legally or even Congressionally) things will get VERY serious very fast.
Stern has been very careful to say he hasn’t read the emails. If Bennett’s boat starts taking on water, I don’t think Stern will be staying onboard to see what happens.
I think it has been wise not too point the legal finger at the NBA now (even if there is evidence out there, or that will emerge, that makes it possible.) They may be our Ally when all is said and done. Remind them verbally in negotiations about the possible damage the NBA will suffer, and give them the chance to do the “right thing.”
My hope is that Yarmouth and Gordon have the support to stay in this for the long haul and seek a result that the Seattle fans will happy about. Oh and a few more colorful emails/communications wouldn’t hurt either.
April 23rd, 2008 at 12:37 pm
If this really is a PR stunt, then you’re making it a little too easy for him. We wouldn’t be here if it wasn’t for Howard Schultz. The only way he redeems himself in my eyes is if this lawsuit, in one way or another, leads to local ownership of the team.
- I dont get why it is so important for people to “hate” other people for something. It doesn’t do any good…
April 23rd, 2008 at 12:40 pm
Good point… I wonder if the city/powers that be are releasing these emails in order to try to convince Stern to give them a good reason to stop before they show something involving him…
- This seems like a much more likely scenario. Same reason why they talked about a negotiation between the league…kind of like “HEY LOOK AT US…WE ARE TRYING TO HELP YOU NOT LOOK STUPID”…but if you keep ignoring it it will get worse and worse and worse.
April 23rd, 2008 at 12:41 pm
It’s a classic wedge tactic. Sue one party. Keep the other out of the action. Bennett’s interests become different than the NBA’s. Suddenly we may find that the league wants Bennett to go away. Both the city and Schultz have set up a nice situation where Bennett and Stern may ultimately wind up in opposition to each other. It’s just beautiful to watch…
April 23rd, 2008 at 12:42 pm
I dont get why it is so important for people to “hate” other people for something. It doesn’t do any good…
Well Myk, you don’t seem to “get” most things, which explains why you start out 90% of you posts with “Hmmm… I guess I just don’t understand why…”
And besides, I didn’t say anything about hatred, I just said that it might not be wise to champion the man who first turned our team into a steaming pile, and then sold it to out-of-town owners.
April 23rd, 2008 at 12:44 pm
And besides, I didn’t say anything about hatred, I just said that it might not be wise to champion the man who first turned our team into a steaming pile, and then sold it to out-of-town owners.
…until he makes good on it, that is.
April 23rd, 2008 at 12:58 pm
Clint - Its the only way I see Stern being in on it. Makes sense, too.
PDX - Agreed. This is very Divide And Conquerish.
April 23rd, 2008 at 12:59 pm
And besides, I didn’t say anything about hatred, I just said that it might not be wise to champion the man who first turned our team into a steaming pile, and then sold it to out-of-town owners.
- I guess I will continue not to waste my time hating someone I don’t know and will never know.
April 23rd, 2008 at 1:02 pm
Les Munson, the ESPN legal dude, will be on the Softy show tomorrow.
April 23rd, 2008 at 1:02 pm
Balloholic: “…until he makes good on it, that is. ”
My opinion is that by filing this lawsuit, he has. He can’t control the outcome, but he built these safeguards into the contract to give us a fair shot to keep the team. Now that it’s apparent we didn’t get that fair shot, he’s filed to undo the sale.
What more can he do?
April 23rd, 2008 at 1:03 pm
It’s a classic wedge tactic. Sue one party. Keep the other out of the action. Bennett’s interests become different than the NBA’s. Suddenly we may find that the league wants Bennett to go away. Both the city and Schultz have set up a nice situation where Bennett and Stern may ultimately wind up in opposition to each other. It’s just beautiful to watch…
- Agreed…they are trying to give David Stern every possible way to get out of this without looking more dumb then he already does.
They realize that in the end it doesn’t matter how much Clay Bennett gets mad…that is going to happen regardless. If the team somehow stays it matters if David Stern is happy.
April 23rd, 2008 at 1:04 pm
The reluctance to use expansion has backed the league into a corner. They owe OKC a team, but are relcutant to expand due to owners having a reduced stake in the league. If this plays our way, and OKC ends up with a expansion team, Stern will have some PO’d owners on his hands.
April 23rd, 2008 at 1:09 pm
The Wally Walker is an angel vs the devil debate revisited after all of these years… Sweet! Reminds of a time when some of us old PI posters were despised on this board. Ah, the good ol’ days.
Walker negotiated the deal with Ellison. That’s enough blood on his hands to question his intentions on the Bennett vote imo. Did the Ellison deal actually come up for a vote as Scott indicated? I hadn’t heard about that one.
April 23rd, 2008 at 1:11 pm
I think ian and elise will have a lawyer on tonight as well.
April 23rd, 2008 at 1:13 pm
I was thinking about Satan Bennett and how he has portrayed himself. I got to thinking that this is classic sociopathic behavior. Here’s a short list of characteristics of a sociopath, sound familiar?
Glibness and Superficial Charm.
Manipulative and Conning. They never recognize the rights of others and see their self-serving behaviors as permissible. They appear to be charming, yet are covertly hostile and domineering, seeing their victim as merely an instrument to be used. They may dominate and humiliate their victims.
Grandiose Sense of Self
Feels entitled to certain things as “their right.”
Pathological Lying
Has no problem lying coolly and easily and it is almost impossible for them to be truthful on a consistent basis. Can create, and get caught up in, a complex belief about their own powers and abilities. Extremely convincing and even able to pass lie detector tests.
Lack of Remorse, Shame or Guilt
A deep seated rage, which is split off and repressed, is at their core. Does not see others around them as people, but only as targets and opportunities. Instead of friends, they have victims and accomplices who end up as victims. The end always justifies the means and they let nothing stand in their way.
And they are often “Posessed!”
Scary, huh?
April 23rd, 2008 at 1:18 pm
Now I think I might be a sociopath.
April 23rd, 2008 at 1:19 pm
Or maybe just a hypochondriac.
April 23rd, 2008 at 1:20 pm
I’m a pedestrian.
April 23rd, 2008 at 1:23 pm
“I think it is ridiculously unfair to call out Howard for being Naive with regards to the Sale.”
I don’t. He put us in this position. Don’t forget that he took the “take the city hostage” approach in his attempt to get an arena as well. In a way……he set the tone for the NBA.
He sold to an out of town ownership group. He sold to a group based out of a city that has been trying to get NBA basketball for years. Its common sense. He put the team up for sale. He had $100 million reasons to sell. Its not like Clay talked him into selling a team that wasn’t for sale.
Win or lose this is still mostly Shultz fault. He can make it good……but he created the mess.
April 23rd, 2008 at 1:23 pm
“I guess I will continue not to waste my time hating someone I don’t know and will never know.”
Oh lord… you are such a drama queen.
“My opinion is that by filing this lawsuit, he has. He can’t control the outcome, but he built these safeguards into the contract to give us a fair shot to keep the team. Now that it’s apparent we didn’t get that fair shot, he’s filed to undo the sale.
What more can he do?”
Well, I think it’s very possible that he’s in this for more than just saving face, but still, he’s the biggest reason why we’re in this predicament in the first place, no? So he’s got to PROVE that this isn’t just a PR stunt IMO.
I don’t hate the guy, but there’re plenty of reasons to question his motives. So when I say “prove” I simply mean that he has to stick this thing out and give his “Best Efforts” to fix this. It’s possible that this could all be a pretense, and he’s just trying to repair his image. So maybe we can reserve the high praise for when something good actually comes of this… which could be soon.
April 23rd, 2008 at 1:28 pm
What if Bennett sells to Ballmer and the city gives Ballmer a better lease for a few years. Brown and Bean builts a new arena in 3 to 5 years with private money. Makes sense to me.
April 23rd, 2008 at 1:28 pm
I should correct myself, the new email is definitely something good that has come from this, but it could just be a result of coordinated efforts on the part of the City and Schultz. That’s all good but IMO Howard could possibly be more of a piece in the City’s case than a man on a mission. In that case I consider him along the lines of an informant, and I don’t regard those as heroes.
April 23rd, 2008 at 1:32 pm
Mike Khan to be on with Groz at 2:20
April 23rd, 2008 at 1:35 pm
Let’s also not forget that before Schultz decided to sell the team to out-of-towners, he first threatened to move the team himself.
April 23rd, 2008 at 1:36 pm
Pardon me if this has been covered already, but I don’t have the time to read all of the posts. The argument regarding Schultz should have or did now he was lying is a very interesting one.
I think that is the crux of the side letter. He did know Bennett was lying, but he had no proof and he wanted something “just in case” (smart lawyering by someone). If he was lying, he had the “smoking gun” if things went south (literally). If Bennett did keep the team in Seattle and abide by the side letter (which he could have done and then take the team to OKC in 2010 without any repercussion), then it wouldn’t have mattered.
The bottom line is that Bennett did not intend and did not do what he said he would do in the side letter (which is part and parcel of the contract). Therefore, since by doing so he caused damage to the contract, it is most probably voidable.
I hope this gets to trial in a year or two. It could be so interesting.
April 23rd, 2008 at 1:40 pm
I think everybody is getting carried away with Howard’s intentions. Do you really think he’s doing this to appease a small minority of Sonics fans. Other than the diehards who blame him for this, does anybody else really care about what Howard did or didn’t do.
Everybody should just remember that this is something he did not have to do! He could be seeking compensation, and he’s not. He doesn’t even want the team back, he just wants local owners. Question him for his thoughts and intentions of the sale if you must, but let’s give him some credit where credit is due. Where would we be right now without his lawsuit? If you want to really start pointing fingers and questioning motives, save them for our state politicians who STILL have done nothing.
April 23rd, 2008 at 1:40 pm
Keep hearing the commercials… anyone else think its a really bad time to have a business called ‘Okey Golf’?
April 23rd, 2008 at 1:46 pm
Sorry forgot who posted, just read through too many posts …but, why is OKC OWED an expansion team? You show support for the Hornets for a couple seasons and now you’re owed? If by chance the Canucks had to play their games in Seattle due to some random circumstance preventing them from playing in Vancouver, and discounted tickets were available I would lap it up! Of course they’d get alot of support in Seattle, but at the end of it I wouldn’t feel owed an NHL team. Big deal, you can get excited about something new.
April 23rd, 2008 at 1:46 pm
With the paperwork now out, and some actual legal minds starting to provide some analysis, it seems an appropriate time to ask Mitch on KJR if he still thinks Howard’s suit has absolutely no chance of sucess … or if he was just practicing anal speech the other day.
April 23rd, 2008 at 1:47 pm
“Do you really think he’s doing this to appease a small minority of Sonics fans. Other than the diehards who blame him for this, does anybody else really care about what Howard did or didn’t do.”
What else would his motive be? He doesn’t want to be blamed, and rightfully so, for selling out the first franchise in Seattle to win a championship, the oldest and most storied sports franchise we’ve had. Do you think he’s just doing it based on the principle that he was lied to?
If Clay Bennett was viewed as the sole villain responsible for this, Howard Schultz would gladly fade into the background.
April 23rd, 2008 at 1:47 pm
“anyone else think its a really bad time to have a business called ‘Okey Golf’? ”
lol. I was thinking same thing.
April 23rd, 2008 at 1:53 pm
http://tinyurl.com/53ykmt
April 23rd, 2008 at 1:53 pm
http://www.killclaybennett.com/
Its like duck hunt but your are hunting Clay Clay
April 23rd, 2008 at 1:54 pm
I guess my point is I really don’t care what Howard’s motives are for the suit. I don’t want to make him out to be a hero, and I don’t want to vilify the guy. At the end of the day, I only know it helps our cause and that’s all that’s important to me.
April 23rd, 2008 at 1:58 pm
At least Howie’s smart enough not to be making any public statements during this process. Think Bennett might finally catch that clue after this filing?
April 23rd, 2008 at 2:00 pm
I think everybody is getting carried away with Howard’s intentions. Do you really think he’s doing this to appease a small minority of Sonics fans. Other than the diehards who blame him for this, does anybody else really care about what Howard did or didn’t do.
- Ding ding ding…it amazes me that people think that Howard Schultz really gives a fuck about what any of us think about him. I’m sure when he is swimming around in his piles of gold coins (a’la Scrooge McDuck) he sits and wonders “I hope those Sonics fans still don’t hate me”.
If anything, his motive is his ego and the fact that he is pissed off that some guy got the best of him via deceit. Howard likes to look at himself as some ultra-smooth businessman. Getting $100 million dollars extra for the Sonics probably helps make him feel that much better about himself. Now he finds out that Bennett completely lied to him, so he has the opportunity to keep that great profit and make himself not look like he’d been tricked by someone I am sure Howard thinks is not nearly as smart as he is.
Sorry forgot who posted, just read through too many posts …but, why is OKC OWED an expansion team? You show support for the Hornets for a couple seasons and now you’re owed? If by chance the Canucks had to play their games in Seattle due to some random circumstance preventing them from playing in Vancouver, and discounted tickets were available I would lap it up! Of course they’d get alot of support in Seattle, but at the end of it I wouldn’t feel owed an NHL team. Big deal, you can get excited about something new.
- I’ve said that many times. The biggest myth that OKC was able to successfully push out to the masses is that they somehow are a market that “deserves” the NBA and has “proven they could sustain a franchise in the long run”.
If only Bennett had the PR firm that helped get that myth running…
April 23rd, 2008 at 2:02 pm
With the Lord is on our side, the Supes will not go.
April 23rd, 2008 at 2:05 pm
It’s like I posted above Dick. I truly think that Bennett is a pathological liar. They have a sense of infallibility and often get tangled in their own webs of deceit.
Either that or he’s just a frikkin’ moron.
April 23rd, 2008 at 2:05 pm
As far as the “should we keep ’scorching the earch’ or play nice” question, I’d be for following through on both suits. First, we have good cases in both (it seems). Second, despite of Stern’s rhetoric, he may not be around to enforce it; keep in mind that the man’s going on 66 y/o this year. How long is he planning to stick around? Not to say that his replacement would favor us, but most successors will wish to make good impressions rather than begin their reign with negativity.
And let’s not give Schultz a free pass yet. ESPN’s Munson had some good points making a case that this is not just a PR stunt. but ya never know. So i’m not going back to Starbucks yet.
Finally, SEATTLE NEEDS AN ARENA! We need to keep up the pressure on Lazy G and friends to get something done. I’d love to see a special session, but in absence of that we should continue making so much noise that the Sonicnation will be impossible to ignore come next year’s state gettogether.
peace, and SAVE THESE SONICS!!!!!
April 23rd, 2008 at 2:07 pm
-I’m against the idea of expansion. I love the NBA but 30 teams is too many. I think the NBA need contraction not expansion.
-I don’t like the idea of stealing another city’s team. I know how painful it is and I wouldn’t wish it on anyone.
-We need to keep these Sonics.
April 23rd, 2008 at 2:16 pm
guess my point is I really don’t care what Howard’s motives are for the suit. I don’t want to make him out to be a hero, and I don’t want to vilify the guy. At the end of the day, I only know it helps our cause and that’s all that’s important to me.
I think that’s a perfectly rational way to look at it.
April 23rd, 2008 at 2:17 pm
I don’t think that a negotiation works in this instance without the lawsuits as your leverage.
WE NEED AN ARENA DEAL
April 23rd, 2008 at 2:20 pm
It’s like I posted above Dick. I truly think that Bennett is a pathological liar. They have a sense of infallibility and often get tangled in their own webs of deceit.
- I think this is actually a key trait in most incredibly successful people. It takes a certain kind of drive and take no prisoner’s attitude to push your company to the top. Some people are able to remove themselves from that in their real life…others are not.
April 23rd, 2008 at 2:26 pm
We do need an arena deal, all these lawsuits are great, but at the end of the day we need to get an arena deal done. Our “Lazy G” sees these lawsuits, and thinks she can take a free pass. Show some leadership, and get something done…and please “No letters”!
April 23rd, 2008 at 2:28 pm
” I think this is actually a key trait in most incredibly successful people.”
I’m sure guys like Bill Gates, Warren Buffet and Paul Allen all got to where they are today by compulsively lying. It gets ‘em EVERY time.
April 23rd, 2008 at 2:29 pm
I don’t totally disagree Myk, although I don’t think sociopathic behavior is a prerequisite for success. But people who just plain have no morals can certainly get ahead faster. I have seen it happen many times in business.
April 23rd, 2008 at 2:30 pm
And it’s getting Clay Bennett many accolades as well. This is doing great things for his image and his business.
April 23rd, 2008 at 2:31 pm
Khan is still sticking to the point that he thinks that howard’s lawsuit is just a PR stunt.
He is still pushing for a settlement with the city. Thankfully we have Howard to get the team back for hopefully.
April 23rd, 2008 at 2:31 pm
I’m sure guys like Bill Gates, Warren Buffet and Paul Allen all got to where they are today by compulsively lying. It gets ‘em EVERY time.
- You have read about the emails that Bill Gates used that were used against him during his anti-trust trials, correct? If you do not think that Bill Gates used intense bullying tacticts to get where he is today then you are being naive.
I do not think that they are necessarily pathological liars…but I definately believe they have a sense of infallibility that drives them to expecting they will be uber-successful…
April 23rd, 2008 at 2:40 pm
“I do not think that they are necessarily pathological liars…but I definately believe they have a sense of infallibility that drives them to expecting they will be uber-successful… ”
I just think they’re human beings, and as such are capable of lying and many other unsavory things. But that’s not WHY they’re successful. And really I was only teasing because you made pathological lying sound like a common occurence, which it is definitely not.
April 23rd, 2008 at 2:40 pm
Stern keeps getting these chances to bail on Clay, but continues to stick with him - very weird, assuming you’re a rational thinker.
I wonder what’s so unquittable about Clay Bennett to Stern…?
There’s serving the owners, and then I guess there’s “serving” the owners…
April 23rd, 2008 at 2:45 pm
Stern sticks with Clay because there isn’t an arena proposal in place here yet. Combine an arena plan with Ballmer’s group and Clay’s mounting legal problems, and there’s a good chance that Stern would turn on Clay, at least privately.
April 23rd, 2008 at 2:47 pm
I agree, with a fully funded arena proposal Stern will “flip” on Clay. He will stand by his man until that time.
April 23rd, 2008 at 2:48 pm
“Clayton Bennett, I just can’t quit you…”
-David Stern
April 23rd, 2008 at 2:48 pm
I just think they’re human beings, and as such are capable of lying and many other unsavory things. But that’s not WHY they’re successful. And really I was only teasing because you made pathological lying sound like a common occurence, which it is definitely not.
- Highly successful people have a completely different mindset then most common people. Was Bill Clinton a pathelogical liar?
It is one of those things where I personally believe that the most successful people in the world imagine a reality that only fits their beliefs and their own personal success. This usually leads to them not caring who they pull down while they climb to the top…in their minds it is justified…in their minds they are absolutely not lying, just doing what needs to be done to achieve the results they see as necessary for their achievements.
Its sort of like when you see that really ugly fat guy go up and talk to the super model. In the “normal” world a person would say that there is no way that he should even consider talking to that person. In his world though he thinks it most definately makes sense…certain people make their own reality.
April 23rd, 2008 at 2:57 pm
“- Highly successful people have a completely different mindset then most common people. Was Bill Clinton a pathelogical liar?
It is one of those things where I personally believe that the most successful people in the world imagine a reality that only fits their beliefs and their own personal success.”
No, Bill Clinton was not a pathological liar. He didn’t have a mental disorder that compelled him to lie even when it wasn’t necessary. Bill Clinton was a Rhodes Scholar, that would be damn near impossible for a pathological liar to achieve, so stop it already.
“It is one of those things where I personally believe that the most successful people in the world imagine a reality that only fits their beliefs and their own personal success. This usually leads to them not caring who they pull down while they climb to the top…in their minds it is justified…in their minds they are absolutely not lying, just doing what needs to be done to achieve the results they see as necessary for their achievements.
You just sound like an unsuccessful, bitter person who makes sweeping, baseless claims about vast groups of people. Have fun with that. Anyhoo, I apologize to the rest of you for pursuing such a dumb argument.
April 23rd, 2008 at 2:59 pm
I mentioned this yesterday, but its possible that there was no local ownership team in place to purchase the team from Shultz at the time. There was no need to buy the team when its been losing money and has a less than promising lease.
Shultz sold the Sonics because he was LOSING money. Shultz is a billionaire, but his net worth is nothing compared to Ballmer. The last Forbes list of billionaires estimates Shultz’s wealth at 1.1 billion while Ballmer is 15 billion. When a team is increasing costs and has no promise to make money, even in a season where the Sonics do well, and local leaders are not helping out to fund a new arena, Shultz did what any of you would do. As much as Shultz loved the Sonics, sometimes profit losses outweigh that love. And Shultz forced the clause in the contract to bind Bennett to make an honest effort in the Seattle area. I think Shultz’s intentions were to keep the team here and he thought the best way to press the city of Seattle, as well as local business men, into making an arena deal work was selling to an outside group.
The Ballmer group really didnt emerge until the last few months. You have to assume Paul Allen was instrumental in getting Ballmer involved.
However, if this Shultz case forces the sale of the team to Ballmer from Bennett, we’ve got a home run on our hands. Ballmer could string together more collective funding for a privately built arena better than Shultz could, and Ballmer can take the economic hits NBA teams have when the team isn’t doing well, or when the lease just isn’t that good.
I guarantee if the Blazers weren’t already owned by Allen, he would have probably bought the team himself to keep it in Seattle. The next best thing is getting Ballmer involved. We’re very fortunate to have these two extremely good businessmen in the local Seattle area to help out with keeping the team in Seattle.
For everyones thoughts that Paul Allen just wanted to lure Sonic fans towards Portland in the instance that the Sonics leave (the intent for voting against the move) I truly think that Allen loves the Sonics as much as he loves the Blazers.
April 23rd, 2008 at 3:02 pm
Yeah… Allen wanted to buy the Supes back in the day, but instead had to settle for the Blazers.
April 23rd, 2008 at 3:04 pm
We need a ‘Few Good Men’ moment when we get Stern on the stand. Badger him until he breaks…
Ceis/Yarmuth: Mr. Stern, did you collude with Mr. Bennett to defraud Mr. Schultz and steal the Sonics from Seattle?
Stern: No I did not.
Ceis/Yarmuth: Mr. Stern, Bennett made the fake good faith effort because THAT’S what you told Bennett to do!
NBA Lawyer: OBJECT!
Judge: Sustained!
Ceis/Yarmuth: When it went bad for Schultz, you cut him LOOSE! You and Bennett coerced him to sell…
NBA Lawyer: Your honor!
Ceis/Yarmuth: you ignored the contract!…
NBA Lawyer: DAMN IT!
Judge: CONSIDER YOURSELF IN CONTEMPT!
Ceis/Yarmuth: COMMISSIONER STERN, DID YOU ORDER THE FRAUD?
Judge: You DON’T have to answer that question!
Stern: You want answers?
Ceis/Yarmuth: I think I’m entitled to them.
Stern: You want answers?
Ceis/Yarmuth: I want the truth!
Stern: You can’t handle the truth!!! Son, we live in a world that has basketball. And basketball has to be guarded by men with power. Who’s gonna do it? You? You, Mr. Schultz? I have a greater responsibility than you can possibly fathom. You weep for Seattle and you curse OKC. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know: that the Seattle Sonics death, while tragic, probably gives us future leverage in other cities. And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves basketball…You don’t want the truth. Because deep down, in places you don’t talk about at parties, you want me on that ball. You need me on that ball. We use words like blackmail, relocation, fan loyalty…we use these words as the backbone to a life spent defrauding someone. You use ‘em as a punchline. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very basketball I provide, then questions the manner in which I provide it! I’d rather you just said thank you and went on your way. Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a basketball and take a shot. Either way, I don’t give a damn what you think you’re entitled to!
Ceis/Yarmuth: Did you order the fraud and relocation?
Stern: (quietly) I did the job they sent me to do.
Ceis/Yarmuth: Did you order the fraud and relocation?
Stern: You’re goddamn right I did!!
HAHAHA… ok so it doesn’t fit perfectly but it would be so funny.
April 23rd, 2008 at 3:05 pm
“I do not think that they are necessarily pathological liars…but I definately believe they have a sense of infallibility that drives them to expecting they will be uber-successful… ”
Honestly, most of the time, billionaires aren’t smarter than everyone else…..there really is not a whole lot of correlation between being book smart and being wealthy. Yes, Paul Allen and Bill Gates are extremely smart men, but they are fantastic businessmen first and foremost.
Just look at the list of billionaires and I’d say more than half are college dropouts or dropped out of higher education, such as business school, like what Ballmer did.
Donald Trump says its one thing to have a lot of knowledge, and its another thing to act on that knowledge. People who are wealthy act on their knowledge, but it doesnt necessarily make them smarter than the average run of the mill guy.
Thats why I think that people overanalyzed Bennetts emails and Audrey’s comments. I dont think its a long scheme or conspiracy by the two of them, I just dont think they realize what their actions are doing to their plan. They are great businessmen, but who knows how much smarter they are in this whole situation. For all we know, we could have been thinking 10 steps ahead of Bennett, and are bringing more knowledge to the table on the situation on the Sonics than they are….
April 23rd, 2008 at 3:07 pm
You just sound like an unsuccessful, bitter person who makes sweeping, baseless claims about vast groups of people. Have fun with that. Anyhoo, I apologize to the rest of you for pursuing such a dumb argument.
- It amuses me that you think that I am calling this mind-set for these successful people a bad thing. This same mind-set is the reason Michael Jordan was so good at basketball and Tiger Woods is so good at golf…and also why some people think they have an abrasive personality. The drive to be successful can very often consume a person. There are many studies by psychologists on this fact.
Michael Jordan probably wasn’t the most atheletic player to ever play basketball, or the best shooter…or even the best “anything”. His drive to succeed and to do whatever it takes was why he became so successful. Its that same drive that forces Jerome James to sit at home and eat chips all day when he could easily be one of the top 5 centers in the league.
OTH, don’t worry, I’m more than successful enough for my liking (and for my age group). Perhaps the reason I can relate to some of these personality traits is that I can identify them in myself. Being that you don’t know anything about me I find it ironic that you would call me out for making sweeping, baseless claims. But…what’s new??
April 23rd, 2008 at 3:09 pm
Thats why I think that people overanalyzed Bennetts emails and Audrey’s comments. I dont think its a long scheme or conspiracy by the two of them, I just dont think they realize what their actions are doing to their plan. They are great businessmen, but who knows how much smarter they are in this whole situation. For all we know, we could have been thinking 10 steps ahead of Bennett, and are bringing more knowledge to the table on the situation on the Sonics than they are….
- Exactly…
April 23rd, 2008 at 3:09 pm
I still maintain that Goldman Sachs did a poor job and perhaps was even in on the deal with Stern and Bennett. I just can’t imagine that they could not have put together a group to buy the team here. It’s never as easy as one might think, not just a matter of making a couple of phone calls. But I would be interested to see what those over-priced over-rated suits really did to broker a sale.
April 23rd, 2008 at 3:12 pm
I think it involves arrogance of some men who never had opposition to what they wanted to do. I don’t think Bennett thought the city would stand up and fight him. I don’t think he thought Schultz would sue him.
Even the rich under-estimate people now and then. The difference is usually they can afford to do it.
April 23rd, 2008 at 3:13 pm
James, good point of Stern sticking with Bennett at least until we get an arena built. It’s a face-saver for Stern: “I didn’t loose! See! We GOT an arena out of them!”
We may not like subsidizing the rich, but fact is that this is the NBA business format, and so if we want THEM we must neccessarily accept their neverending pleas for new stadiums and accomodations.
Let’s get it built… and let’s keep them… these them i mean! pheww…..
April 23rd, 2008 at 3:34 pm
“Being that you don’t know anything about me I find it ironic that you would call me out for making sweeping, baseless claims. But…what’s new??”
Huh? Try making some kind of sense. You made the generalizations publicly, so I don’t have to know anything about you. Anyways, I’d like to drop this stupid off topic rant.
April 23rd, 2008 at 3:43 pm
Anyone here on Gas and Groz? A lawyer calls this situation a ‘Non-fungable’ (sp?) good. That keeping the team in seattle was material.
April 23rd, 2008 at 3:58 pm
Otto — uh, is that good or bad?
April 23rd, 2008 at 4:05 pm
Yeah Otto, I don’t understand?
April 23rd, 2008 at 4:05 pm
Pete — if the lawyer’s right, it’s good.
April 23rd, 2008 at 4:05 pm
I believe that the phrase “non-fungible” in contract law context refers to a unique property of the given commodity. That is, monetary relief provided by Bennett to Schultz would not be equitable (as would be return of the team) because Sonics are a unique commodity that has special ties to the region.
Perhaps Hector could chime in here.
April 23rd, 2008 at 4:08 pm
I don’t want the Sonics if they aren’t this Sonics team. I have to disagree with SOS on that. I think this whole keep our colors thing has just been a smoke screen to calm Seattle fans. Oklahoma doesn’t want to be called the Sonics anymore then we would want a team named the Sooners.
You never see these cases followed all the way through. They are almost always settled out of court. I want to see this soap opera play out until every last drop of blood is squeezed from the NBA. It is total BS what they are doing to the fans of Seattle.
If we settle now I’ll be so ticked it will beyond belief. I don’t want a team in three years, I want my Sonics to stay. I can’t believe there are people out there wanting to see a settlement for an expansion team. What is wrong with this picture? Steal our team away and then rub our noses in it all the while laughing and lying? I don’t think so.
April 23rd, 2008 at 4:08 pm
They explained it as something that is not redibly replaceable, I.E. if you went to a pancake house and didn’t like it you could just choose to go to another pancake house. The Sonics are a not redibly replaceable.
April 23rd, 2008 at 4:10 pm
Maybe non-Fungable has it’s roots in Fungus-or able to spread in multiple environments and/or conditions. Kind of like if your down the block 7-11 closed which would force you to drive a mile and a half to get your Slurpee instead of a quarter mile. The Sonics are NON-fungable—if they leave-there would be NO replacement for millions of people. In otherwords, it is very unique-niche product.
April 23rd, 2008 at 4:11 pm
To clarify, if my interpretation of the terminology is correct, Bennett could not satisfy Schultz’s suit with monetary damages alone because the sports franchise is a unique commodity. In such a case, specific performance would be called for and, provided a favorable decision, the team would have to be turned over to the trust to which the suit papers refer.
April 23rd, 2008 at 4:11 pm
Fungible, Sounds like some kind of culture.
April 23rd, 2008 at 4:16 pm
“Non-fungible,” as a couple others have noted, essentially means unique. With respect to the Sonics, it means that no particular amount of money is an adequate replacement for them.
This concept is important in the lease lawsuit and potentially in Schultz’s suit also, though I’d have to read more to decide one way or the other on that one. The lease says something to the effect that the parties’ obligations to each other are unique in nature and, as a result, may be specifically enforced — i.e., the City can sue to force the team to play out its lease.
April 23rd, 2008 at 4:17 pm
Well according to the lawyer, non-fungable is good.
April 23rd, 2008 at 4:17 pm
Thanks for the explanation. Makes a lot of sense. I hope they can prove it in court.
April 23rd, 2008 at 4:19 pm
Wikipedia says:
If an asset is fungible, this means that when such an asset is lent, or placed with a custodian, it is customary for the borrower or custodian to be obliged at the end of the loan or custody arrangement to return assets equivalent to the original asset, rather than the identical asset. In other words, the redelivery of fungibles is equivalent and not in specie (identical).
- I bolded the last part for emphasis. It appears to me by being non-fungible the lawyer is saying that redelivery would need to be identical.
The reason the team is non-fungible is because:
In legal disputes, when one party is compelled to remedy another party as the result of a ruling or adjudication, the appropriate legal remedy may depend on the fungibility of the underlying right, obligation or property interest that is intended to be restored.[1] Depending on whether the interests of the aggrieved party are fungible (a determination made by the trier of fact), the appropriate remedy may change. For example, a court may require specific performance as a remedy for breach of contract, instead of the more favored remedy of monetary damages.[2]
April 23rd, 2008 at 4:19 pm
Yeah, Gas’s analogy was that the sonics were not like a waffle house, where there are tons of them around. Sonics is a unique property, and no amount of damages could replace it. Only the sonics.
April 23rd, 2008 at 4:20 pm
Laporbo, that was gold.
April 23rd, 2008 at 4:24 pm
One of the greatests posts ever Laporbo!!!
“You want me on that ball. You need me on that ball.”
OUTSTANDING!!!!
April 23rd, 2008 at 4:24 pm
Continuing on my point from before that I dont think Clay Bennett is really as smart as people are giving him credit for in this situation, people are forgetting just how difficult of a transaction this really is. I know teams have relocated before, however this might be the only situation of relocation where a city has relocated to a population thats 3 times smaller. The only ones that come close are Houston Oilers to Tennessee and maybe the Grizzlies to Memphis.
Even in the Houston situation, the fanbase frankly didnt care. In this situation, the Seattle basketball fans do care, and Clay Bennett’s plan has completely backfired on him
If Clay Bennett was smart in moving a team, he could have done a number of things to prove that he wasn’t actually being fraudulent in his intentions
1) A smart Clay Bennett would have bought a house immediately after purchasing the Sonics. The day he bought the team, on public record, he stated his full intentions were to find a solution in Seattle, even though nobody believed him. Buying a house would have gone a long way to proving his intentions were true.
2) A smart Clay Bennett would have hired a team of Seattle based lawyers, architects, lobbyists, accountants, financial advisors and whoever else, based in Seattle, to help him find a solution to the deal.
3) A smart Clay Bennett wouldn’t have traded and let go his two best players when he has the #2 draft pick in arguably on of the best drafts classes.
4) A smart Clay Bennett would have reached out to the Seattle fanbase, trying to build at least a little trust.
Instead, Clay Bennett:
- Alienated the fanbase
- Hardly ever attended home games
- Refused to meet with local leaders
- Refused to meet with the Muckleshoots who were trying to find a solution
- Cut costs as much as possible in anticipation for an attempt at moving
If Clay was smart in this situation, he could have done a lot more to at least conceal his intentions of leaving town. And he was right, even if he succeeded in getting a new deal in place, the value of his purchase would have appreciated much more.
Overall, Clay has made so many mistakes in trying to leave Seattle that I think hes really facing the possibility of just giving up. I like the point that Brian made that Clay does do other business outside of the Sonics. This situation could ruin his reputation, something that is much more valuable to a person than if they succeed in relocating a team. I’m not sure Clay will want to risk that with a pending fraud case, even if he does think he’ll win. He is going to have to evaluate if its really worth the risk, and if he chooses it is worth it, I think everyone here is prepared to fight. If he chooses its not worth the risk, then we end up getting what we want.
April 23rd, 2008 at 4:25 pm
I like how there are so many lawyers taking a look at this case. apparently they have been emailing at least gas on their thoughts.
April 23rd, 2008 at 4:26 pm
From the oxford dictionary:
Fungible
adjective Law
(of goods contracted for without an individual specimen being specified) able to replace or be replaced by another identical item; mutually interchangeable : money is fungible—money that is raised for one purpose can easily be used for another.
From my own knowledge trading commodities: Oil and other commodities are considered fungible–i.e., if Hugo Chavez stopped sending oil to the U.S., we could replace it with oil from Nigeria–or even buy formerly Venezuelan crude from whoever he sold it to. (this is slightly different from the legal sense, but it still basically means “interchangeable.”)
The Sonics, on the other hand, if they are non-fungible, cannot be interchanged with cash or a different team. There is no identical item to exchange them for.
April 23rd, 2008 at 4:33 pm
“Bennett bid began in a storage closet”
Does anyone besides me find it hysterical that Stern and Bennett began their relationship in a closet?
April 23rd, 2008 at 4:38 pm
Hoopster, rich don’t get rich accidentally. We may view Bennett’s conduct as foolish, and we’d be right to an extent. But I think there is at least one more variable there: to them, sports franchises are expensive TOYS. Most of these people, be it Schultz, Bennett, Ballmer, or whoever made money on and have their fingers in many very serious ventures that bear much of their scrutiny. And so, even if these franchises are very expensive and we assume that it takes much effort and dedication to obtain and run them, these toys are probably not far up the thought-process chain for these people. In the light of this, I’m not shocked to see Bennett&CO’s mishandling of confidential information and their email system; there’s probably much more on the plate there than the Sonics.
Having said that, WOW! what blunders!
April 23rd, 2008 at 4:41 pm
1. Clay can’t buy his way out of the lease.
2. Clay can’t buy his way out of losing the team.
What is strike 3?
April 23rd, 2008 at 4:49 pm
An article on the King5 website has another opinion from an attorney.
http://www.king5.com/sports/stories/NW_042308SSB_schultz_lawsuit_has_merit_TP.9268dc7b.html
I don’t think there is a lot new there, but this attorney is optimistic. “I think it’s got some reasonable merit,” said Randy Aliment of the firm Williams Kastner. “Once you file a lawsuit like this, these e-mails are going to come out. Conduct of the parties is going to come out and it’s all going to be under the bright lights of the media,” said Aliment.
April 23rd, 2008 at 4:49 pm
“Hoopster, rich don’t get rich accidentally.”
True, many of them either inherited their money or married it.
April 23rd, 2008 at 4:51 pm
After reading through this thread…let me remind everyone of a few things.
1. There was no side letter except to explain some things to the public. Everything was in the actual agreement.
2. For all the skeptics…the public disclosures keep getting more defining and more clarifying. and judging by the reputation of Slade Gorton…there is more to come, and chances are it is going to get better and better.
3. We have Yarmuth and Gorton. Need I say more.
4. IF David Stern keeps up with the support of Bennett in any manner as a spokesman or in any financial way he and/or the NBA is going to end up as co-defendants as some point.
Things are looking very good and they will only get better.
April 23rd, 2008 at 4:51 pm
after the last couple of days of breaking news… i’m fixed here anticipating more… its like i need to go to an AA meeting or something… think its going to get quiet now through the playoffs?… or will they continue to press Bennett/Stern while the playoffs are on…
April 23rd, 2008 at 4:57 pm
“Anyone here on Gas and Groz? A lawyer calls this situation a ‘Non-fungable’ (sp?) good. That keeping the team in seattle was material. ”
I was listening … man, if you ever want a great way to kill brain cells, forget about smoking ganja … just listen to Go 2 Guy on with Gas and Groz. That was 20 minutes of really, really non-compelling radio. Not surprisingly Go 2 Guy came to the defense of witless old fart John McGrath, who hasn’t really written anything memorable in this millenium.
April 23rd, 2008 at 4:58 pm
“True, many of them either inherited their money or married it.”
The point was that Bennett’s idiocy with regard to the Sonics doesn’t make him an idiot. This is good to keep in mind going forward; apperently he thought we and the Seattle brass were all idiots. Now see what’s happening…
April 23rd, 2008 at 4:58 pm
As I remember the city only requested emails dealing with the scope of the lease.
I hope that Yarmuth gets to request his own set of emails from NBA/CB with his (Yarmuths) scope of the sale and the effort.
I’d like to see emails between CB and all those firms he ‘hired’ to make his good faith effort here.
April 23rd, 2008 at 5:07 pm
I’m wondering how much of Gorton’s “Let’s just try to get a team” interview was an attempt to cut off the Stern’s pound-of-flesh hysterics and call his bluff.
We know that no team other than New Orleans is likely to be available anytime soon, and the league won’t expand if it can help it–it wants to keep cities playing musical chairs for available teams, and more teams means fewer cities having to do without and bid up the price of struggling franchises.
So Stern isn’t going to put a promise of an expansion team or a relocated team in writing. He won’t be able to deliver. So if you want to make him look like the goblin he is, make a reasonable buy-out offer on the lease in exchange for the team name and the promise of a new franchise. When Stern refuses that offer, he looks horrible–especially if Seattle can find that last $75m and present an ownership group that’s willing to make the remodeled Key work. At worst, he agrees and we get a team, though not the one we want.
But more likely, we call his bluff. It’s blatantly unfair to turn down this Seattle offer. Stern can’t bad-mouth Seattle for extracting it’s pound of flesh–he won’t even guarantee a future franchise when we do everything a the league and Seattle owners could ask for. And then Schulz becomes completely justified in pulling out all steps to humiliate Bennett and take the team back. Hanging over Stern and Bennett are the public disclosures of more documents and the repercussions of the suits. Bennett starts to worry that the players will bolt on him when their contracts are up, and he starts to wonder if being ruining his business reputation is worth owning a low-budget team that can’t keep its free agents (Call it the OKC Panhandlers).
Maybe it’s wishful thinking, but Gorton’s talk of compromise might just be a strategy for showing Stern’s intransigence and getting the rest of the country behind us.
April 23rd, 2008 at 5:07 pm
FYI, the firm of the attorney (Williams Kastner) who was quoted in the King5.com article is a respected firm. It is good to read his thoughts.
April 23rd, 2008 at 5:22 pm
“Bennett bid began in a storage closet”
Does anyone besides me find it hysterical that Stern and Bennett began their relationship in a closet?
AHHAAHA!!! Thats awesome Bruin. I haven’t laughed out loud for a couple days.FREAKIN FUNNY STUFF
April 23rd, 2008 at 5:23 pm
so whens the earliest bennett will sell the team?
April 23rd, 2008 at 5:31 pm
I was listening … man, if you ever want a great way to kill brain cells, forget about smoking ganja … just listen to Go 2 Guy on with Gas and Groz. That was 20 minutes of really, really non-compelling radio. Not surprisingly Go 2 Guy came to the defense of witless old fart John McGrath, who hasn’t really written anything memorable in this millenium.
- To be fair…Groz did say that Rashard Lewis was:
1) Not vastly overpaid
2) Was perfect for his role as a secodnary superstar on the team
3) Is getting paid so much because of the defense he plays
So…you didn’t hear the most mind numbing part of the G&G show
April 23rd, 2008 at 5:43 pm
Steve at 10:41 - you are solid on Kemp. He was a great player - but you cannot blame his self-destruction on anyone but Kemp.
that said - Wally may indeed be a good guy - fine point by BR - but… He was flat our a terrible NBA GM. Terrible.
April 23rd, 2008 at 5:51 pm
Hector says…
“Clay will likely move to dismiss the suit which is quite unlikely to succeed. Howard will move for a preliminary injunction. That will be huge — if Howard gets it, Clay is almost certainly stuck here until Howard’s case goes through trial.”
I think this makes sense - and depending on timing - if Howard gets this injunction that could be the point where Clay quickly changes his tune & sells. He won’t want to go through that trial, or face the BIG risks involved for him. And there is no reason to believe Howard will want to settle at any point. So, might as well dump the team quickly.
Maybe something happens sooner around the June trial & depositions before the court date - but I think/hope Clay caves in if Howard gets the injunction. If not - I think we will see them all in court & it will be fascinating legal drama.
April 23rd, 2008 at 5:57 pm
from Enjoy the enjoyment best line of the day!
“Never talk when you can nod, and never nod when you can wink, and never write an e-mail because it’s death. You’re giving prosecutors all the evidence we need.”
–Eliot Spitzer
April 23rd, 2008 at 6:05 pm
Stone… I totally agree with you when you say…
“I think this whole keep our colors thing has just been a smoke screen to calm Seattle fans. Oklahoma doesn’t want to be called the Sonics anymore then we would want a team named the Sooners.”
Good summary on this - Clay does not give a rip about the Sonics name, logo, history or colors. He would surely prefer a change if the team moves to OKC
April 23rd, 2008 at 6:55 pm
I agree with Stone and JJ. I find the Utah Jazz, New Orleans Hornets, and…yes….even the LA Lakers funny in their nicknames. Clay would be very happy to “brand” the team something to his liking.
I say all or nothing. These Sonics are OURS and I don’t really want an expansion team nor do I want to be a hypocrite and take another city’s team.
Very funny send-up of A Few Good Men by the way.
I am so much happier than I was a week ago after the owner’s votes. By the way…big props to Cuban. We should all be rooting for Dallas out of respect for his stance (even though they really ain’t going anywhere!).
July 29th, 2008 at 8:07 pm
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