Clay Bennett Deposed
Posted on Wednesday, April 23rd, 2008 at 5:47 pm by Brian Robinson
So I was informed today that I was a week off on my schedule. I knew that Clay Bennett was scheduled for the end of the month, somehow I thought it was the 30th.
Representatives of the Seattle City Attorney were in Oklahoma City yesterday and today deposing Clayton Bennett. Depositions were scheduled to be completed today and there is no indication of any problems.
The city attorneys office is not expected to comment specifically on the content of his testimony.
Funny how he probably talked yesterday and suddenly mails are out this morning. Look for Percy’s article tomorrow with another e-mail to discuss.
April 23rd, 2008 at 5:49 pm
I know we have to have faith in the pros but I sure hope they asked all the big questions. I’m sure they did but I’d feel much better if they had asked questions of him for a week
April 23rd, 2008 at 5:50 pm
This is good drama, I’ll say that much. Make these guys bleed money in these lawsuits!!!
April 23rd, 2008 at 5:53 pm
So the fact that another email is coming tomorrow after 2 days of CB yapping under oath…. could this be another shot by the city showing he lied the last 2 days?
April 23rd, 2008 at 5:55 pm
I do not want money, I want them to let go if the stolen goods, green and gold, by choice, or force of law.
April 23rd, 2008 at 5:56 pm
At first I thought the title to this page was “Clay Bennett DeCOMPOSED” and got super excited.
April 23rd, 2008 at 6:03 pm
I do not want money, I want them to let go if the stolen goods, green and gold, by choice, or force of law.
Amen! To that!
April 23rd, 2008 at 6:06 pm
Give the Sonics bac to Seattle. SAVE OUR SONICS!!!
April 23rd, 2008 at 6:10 pm
“Look for Percy’s article tomorrow with another e-mail to discuss.”
That’s pretty much what I thought was going to happen…I expect this to be as(if not more) informative than the last one. Things are about to get REAL LEGAL…you are going to see Clay Bennett in a lot of trouble. The court of public opinion never asks for any accountability, the court they are all about to enter will demand a final judgement….as well as deliver it. I am feeling very good at this point….mostly because CB and David work off of propaganda and strawman tactics….the City of Seattle has been and will continue to work with hard facts and evidence. I have yet to see any of that from the defendant(s).
April 23rd, 2008 at 6:13 pm
I wonder, how many times he thought about how his answers should be worded to avoid perjury, to have to remember how the lie was told before to ensure he does not become conflicted by the passage of time in light of his words in emails returning to testify against its evil twin, his false public self.
How will this deposition compare with the deposition he will have to give in the Schultz case, don’t forget the lie, no matter how absurd it now may be.
Welcome to it.
April 23rd, 2008 at 6:31 pm
Games just begun fellas!
April 23rd, 2008 at 7:05 pm
I’ve read this twice and still dont know exactly what they’re saying…
are they still confused with the difference between actions after the sale vs intent before the sale?
http://abovethelaw.com/2008/04/sports_and_the_law_dont_cry_ov_1.php
April 23rd, 2008 at 7:07 pm
DAVID STERN MUST STEP DOWN!!!
April 23rd, 2008 at 7:09 pm
i think it was written before the argument of “intent prior to the sale”…. they’re just dealing with “good faith” after the sale…
April 23rd, 2008 at 7:12 pm
Paul Schneiderman (sp) on KJR at 7:25 or 7:35.
April 23rd, 2008 at 7:20 pm
actually this…
Although one way potentially around the doctrine of substantial performance may involve bringing a separate claim based on fraudulent inducement, a fraud claim under Washington law similarly is a nonstarter. Under Washington law, Schultz would have to show convincing evidence of “(1) a representation of existing fact, (2) that is material, (3) and false, (4) the speaker knows of its falsity, (5) intent to induce another to act, (6) ignorance of its falsity by the listener, (7) the latter’s reliance on the truth of the representation, (8) his right to rely on it, and (9) consequent damage.” Pedersen v. Bibioff, 64 Wash. App. 710, 723 n. 10 (1992). Even without knowing all of the facts, proving element nos. 2, 3, 4, 6, and 7 each would likely present some difficulty for Schultz
would seem to support Howie’s claim… right?
April 23rd, 2008 at 7:27 pm
Paul Schneiderman I believe is SOS’s in house counsel correct?
April 23rd, 2008 at 7:28 pm
He used to be listed as such on the SOS website but he isn’t there anymore. I assume he still is.
April 23rd, 2008 at 7:43 pm
AD,
4, 6, and 7 can be proved using the emails as basis. The emails can show that
The Speaker Knew of the Falsity:
As evidenced by Bennett saying that they can just end up flipping if the team ended up staying in Seattle, before the sale. It clearly shows that Bennett knew of the falsity 2 days before the sale.
Ignorance of its falsity by the listener:
Schultz will have to say that he trusted Bennett because of the 2 documents guaranteeing the effort were given to him. He can say that he believed him, because otherwise Bennett was opening himself up to be sued for fraud. And if Stern potentially introduced Bennett to Schultz, Schultz can say he was referred by a dependable source, Stern.
The latter’s reliance on the truth of the representation:
This can be proved by Schultz as well. He just has to show that he only sold the Sonics to Bennett because Bennett promised to try to keep the team here. Schultz can show that he took less money, evidenced by not taking the Oracle guy’s offer, to make sure the team didn’t leave.
April 23rd, 2008 at 7:49 pm
Schneiderman: Case will get past summary judgement, Its a actionable case, most likely will not dismissed.
April 23rd, 2008 at 7:58 pm
Brian R. …. Any word to us fans regarding anything you think we ought to be doing at this time to influence the situation?
April 23rd, 2008 at 8:01 pm
AD - - the Edelman take that you link to above on this is incredibly shallow, and shows no understanding of the situation. It is, I think, also really old - - written before the recent e-mails came out and the case was filed.
April 23rd, 2008 at 8:03 pm
JJ- I’m not BR, but frankly, I think it’s obvious what we should be doing. We should be continuing to contact our governor, mayor, and King County Council to try to push for a solution to that $75 million.
Seriously, if we just had that piece, I don’t see why they wouldn’t just end this thing and give us the team back before the trials start.
Get the damn arena deal, and we win!
April 23rd, 2008 at 8:04 pm
I think Stern will hang with Clay until he think’s Clay will go down - and whenever that happenes (Could be if/when Schultz gets an injunction on clay’s activites with the team) - Stern will tell Clay to give it up or he will have to go it alone & not count on Stern’s support for another move vote.
I am expecting more e-mails and mud on Clay will gradually come out in the coming weeks. Our attornys will start wearing the guy down.
April 23rd, 2008 at 8:05 pm
Question….What is the big deal with Bennett saying we’re going to flip this team? If I flip a house, I buy it, remodel it, and sell for a higher price than what I bought it for, therefore ensuring myself a profit. What’s so wrong about Bennett doing that with an NBA team, while trying to keep them in Seattle (I know you’ll probably focus on this last statement, but please, stick to the question at the top of the post.)
April 23rd, 2008 at 8:10 pm
I think Stern will hang with Clay until he think’s Clay will go down
On that note, maybe we’ll be getting another love letter from Clay tomorrow.
April 23rd, 2008 at 8:10 pm
I understand Pete & I have & will do that - And I’m with you on the arena deal being crucial/essential.
What I wonder is… Are we kidding ourselves if we think there is any way to get any money out of Olympia prior to the next LEG session?
Maybe - I hope so - but when I step back & look at it I wonder if my faint hope of this is a piece of denail on my part. If Gregoire has not done anything yet - why should we expect she will in the future? She simply does not have the desire &/or skills to take a stand of support for this and to gather others around her to support this.
I guess we still try - but I have no faith in Gregoire/Olympia to find any money for an arena this Spring/summer.
April 23rd, 2008 at 8:17 pm
why is schniederman talking about settlement? if an expansion team can be granted, then give one to okc! im sorry, but i cannot get behind efforts for expansion, i guarantee it will be hell to watch durant and green thrive in another city. we will all regret it, that, and letting a snake like clay get away with it. whose to say that pressure wont force the nba, stern to tell clay to sell and they set him up w expansion? united front, no settle!
April 23rd, 2008 at 8:32 pm
do not settle!!!!
April 23rd, 2008 at 8:39 pm
“why is schniederman talking about settlement?”
I didn’t listen to Paul, but I’d assume that he’s talking settlement from a legal standpoint. I think if Stern is going to place an expansion team out there its part of a settlement which keeps basketball in Seattle and gets OKC a team to start when thier lease is scheduled to start.
“united front, no settle!”
I guarantee something, if you and I were to sit in a room and play a strategy game to see who comes out ahead, I’d win 9 out of 10 times, because I’d never get myself to a situation where I have one out.
April 23rd, 2008 at 8:41 pm
Question….What is the big deal with Bennett saying we’re going to flip this team? If I flip a house
Thats the thing..its not a house.
April 23rd, 2008 at 8:43 pm
I didn’t listen to Paul, but I’d assume that he’s talking settlement from a legal standpoint. I think if Stern is going to place an expansion team out there its part of a settlement which keeps basketball in Seattle and gets OKC a team to start when thier lease is scheduled to start.
Paul said that his view was not the view of SOS, and thought that he might take some heat for it, but I think he was talking about Keeping NBA here for the long term. I would assume he meant another team (as he said he was going to take some heat for his commets)
April 23rd, 2008 at 8:44 pm
Dylan… I’m 100% with you on your above post.
No expansion
No taking another cities team and putting other fans through anything like what we are dealing with. No way on this idea - hypocritical for us to support that IMO
Go “All In” for this team - “double Up” on this team.
April 23rd, 2008 at 8:46 pm
“What is the big deal with Bennett saying we’re going to flip this team?”
Because the email shows intent (we have no intention of staying in this market long term). Part of his purchase and sale is that he told the previous owner that his intention was to own the team in this market. Had he told his true intent then the sale doesn’t happen (according to Schultz).
“If I flip a house, I buy it, remodel it, and sell for a higher price than what I bought it for, therefore ensuring myself a profit.”
That’s great, in fact its basically what I do for a living, but it has nothing to do with this scenerio because of your last comment.
“What’s so wrong about Bennett doing that with an NBA team, while trying to keep them in Seattle (I know you’ll probably focus on this last statement, but please, stick to the question at the top of the post.)”
Nothing, if he hadn’t signed an agreement of his intentions. Had he done that, then there’s zero problem with your scenerio. Since he didn’t, the basic assumption falls apart quickly.
April 23rd, 2008 at 8:50 pm
Are you guys aware that if David Stern called tomorrow and said “please drop the lawsuits. If you do Clay will sell, we’ll all issue written apologies, and I promise I will never enter Seattle city limits again.” that would be a settlement and by your logic we would turn it down to fight the fight!
What you are advocating is a bloodbath for the sake of a bloodbath. The trial at its best is a tool to get a resolution.
JJ I hope you truly understand the odds and are ready to work your ass off. Make sure you donate time and money or are really ready to live with yourself if you make these claims and there is a loss.
NOBODY wants to bow down. There is however a really strong sense in holding conversations while you have leverage and seeing if something can be made to happen. Number 1 option I know I would take for sure is if we keep our team. I don’t care if Clay gets expansion. #2 option I know I would not take is we lose our team and get left with nothing. I don’t care how much money is involved, it doesn’t matter. See you in court.
#3 has a ton of ground in the middle and I would talk. Talking doesn’t mean you take a bad deal, it doesn’t mean you lower your standards. It means that the day they start talking about a continuous NBA presence in Seattle is the day we sit back down at the table. If they pull a bait and switch you say no. If they offer an expansion team after 3 years you counter by saying Clay gets the expansion team and see how they respond.
This is negotiation people, not a game of chicken!
April 23rd, 2008 at 8:53 pm
I will say BTW that in the example above there are multiple expamples of real estate projects that are not available for developers and people sign letters of intent to retain the original building, not sell it for a number of year, allow tenants to retain, etc. As an example people can get additional density allowances for apartments if they agree to provide a certain percentage of them as affordable housing(as defined by the city). If you don’t follow through on your promise you are subject to legal action.
As Scott said flipping a house is not illegal, unless you conrtractually obligate yourself not to flip.
He’s lying. he has never flipped a property since he worked for me. I’ve flipped one. It was a good day but we’re holders.
April 23rd, 2008 at 8:56 pm
“He’s lying.”
My name is Clay and I’m a compulsive liar.
April 23rd, 2008 at 8:57 pm
No settlement!!! Fight for OUR team to the end.IF we lose it will be heartbreaking but at least we can say we tried for our Sonics…p.s. Time for Gregoire to step up…actions speak louder the words!
April 23rd, 2008 at 9:05 pm
Oh yeah, dont get me wrong I am loving reading these emails and following whats going on but can I ask why are these emails being made public? Why didnt they all come out at once rather then separated? But shouldnt they all be private info between the lawyers and parties involved? Just curious!
April 23rd, 2008 at 9:11 pm
Brian…first of all thank you for everything you are doing. Its truly amazing and sonics fans are lucky to have you. BUT I understand what you and others are saying about negotiating but I dont see why anyone would accept less then our team, the one we have now, staying here. WHY would we want some “fake” or expansion team and why would we ever want to take anyone elses team?This is horrible what were going through and I would never wish it upon another city. Except maybe OKC. (kidding) But seriously. I go to a ton of games I am a true sonics and nba fan and I love taking my daughter to games so it will be a huge loss and I will truly be hurt if we lose in the end, but if they are able to take our team Im not sure I would be willing to support a “replacement team”. I would however make a couple of trips a year to see the Trailblazers.Just my thoughts.
April 23rd, 2008 at 9:12 pm
“Oh yeah, dont get me wrong I am loving reading these emails and following whats going on but can I ask why are these emails being made public? Why didnt they all come out at once rather then separated? But shouldnt they all be private info between the lawyers and parties involved?”
I think the only ones who could answer this with 100% accuracy would be a member of the media but my best guess would be that the information is obtained using the basic freedoms of the press.
Most of the information from Percy’s article today seemed to come from the legal brief written by Howard’s attorney. Once those briefs are put into the court, they’re part of the record. He’d be the one to answer why things didn’t come out together, my guess would be that they’re looking to get people back to read the next day.
Think of the custody battles between Britney Spears and her husband. If they have an out of court settlement, its possibly sealed and no one knows the details. But if they file cases against each other it ends up on every news cast in America.
April 23rd, 2008 at 9:15 pm
If Bennett’s intent was to be an owner of an NBA team in Seattle, he would not flip it in the event an arena deal was done. That just doesn’t make sense.
No one buys an NBA team just to “flip” it. This isn’t TLC.
Remember, you can be so stubborn in your tactic you lose everything. Do you want an NBA team enough to bend a little?
Trust Slade and the city officials to get Seattle’s NBA fans the best that they can get. Slade has done it previously.
April 23rd, 2008 at 9:15 pm
I think what scares people about settlement talk is that it seems really early to take that road. The fear is jumping at the NBAs offer of a new team when in the long run you could have won your original team. People are afraid that just talking settlement means that they will jump at the first offer and bail on the real goal.
Thats my take on why ’settlement’ scares people.
April 23rd, 2008 at 9:20 pm
off topic perhaps…
i dont think New Orleans is in play anyway… especially with their playoff run… the new lease was interesting… Shinn’s veto at the BOG meeting was as well…
but since Jan 08… their attendance average is above the mark of 14,735 by more than 1,000… if you take just the last 15 or so games they are averaging around 17,048… So considering market conditions… it appears they may be fine in New Orleans… the City will continue to grow and rebuild… and the Hornets dont look like they will be perennial losers anytime soon… not as long as they have Chris Paul.
so it’d appear that if both cities are to have a team in the near future…before 2010…expansion (for either city) would be the only way…
April 23rd, 2008 at 9:21 pm
BR, I appreciate your arguments. And you would know better than I, would an expansion REALLY be feasible for the NBA at this time??? After all of this, I guess anything can happen. If an expansion can be had, I can live with that, although I think it will be a tough sell in this region for years, unless we get a miracle worker of a GM and some great picks. But as bad as the sonics have been during the past five years, key was still close to 90% filled because of history and connection to the community. I just get a the feeling, bringing in a ‘new’ team, having a few years of no team, that people will lose that connection, that history - and not turn out.
As far as buying another existing franchise. I just don’t see how we can lobby for that after what we have been through.
expansion, last choice.
buying another existing team, no chance for me. Although it seems Hornets seem ripe for the picking, I do know fans (as few as there may be) down there feel passionate about their team. I cannot lobby to take/buy that team knowing that there are people there that may feel the same way I am feeling right now. For me, that is a no deal.
April 23rd, 2008 at 9:23 pm
It would make a huge statment to sell out the storm game and support local ownership!
April 23rd, 2008 at 9:24 pm
Seattle SuperSonics: “Scorched Earth”
http://youtube.com/watch?v=DFAFHzJnggw
I say fight to the Bitter End and SAVE KEVIN DURANT and JEFF GREEN’s future in SEATTLE!
David Stern and Clay Bennett are LIARS and will be exposed as such!
I want to keep THIS TEAM and I think we should FIGHT for it!
-2R Sonics
April 23rd, 2008 at 9:25 pm
laporbo, I think you’re right on re: why folks are scared of the idea of settling…
April 23rd, 2008 at 9:27 pm
[ital]Are you guys aware that if David Stern called tomorrow and said “please drop the lawsuits. If you do Clay will sell, we’ll all issue written apologies, and I promise I will never enter Seattle city limits again.” that would be a settlement…”[/ital]
Thanks Brian, that’s exactly what I needed to hear. IMO, that kind of settlement would be great. (in fact, it would be a dream. Literally) But I’d be very happy with anything even close.
OTH, an outcome where Seattle “settles” for an expansion team, or “promise” of another team in the future will be the end for me, even if it is in writing. I know many people here disagree with that point, but that’s life.
I just think that we all need to stick together. I don’t think this thing is going to be over until after the trial. In the meantime, we all need to continue to call and write the State politicians, and pester our family and friends to do the same. We need that $75mm from the state!
April 23rd, 2008 at 9:28 pm
Guess Who Says:
If Bennett’s intent was to be an owner of an NBA team in Seattle, he would not flip it in the event an arena deal was done. That just doesn’t make sense.
That’s the thing though, Bennett didn’t state that it was his desire to own the team long term in Seattle, he said he desired to see the team stay long term. Many here speculated back in 2006 that the reason Bennett got into this game was to get an arena deal and then flip it for a profit and an expansion team.
April 23rd, 2008 at 9:28 pm
I just emailed 60 minutes and 20/20 about this story encouraging them to cover it before the trial. More leverage…
April 23rd, 2008 at 9:28 pm
in the end you either negotiate for what you want or force the same result. The difference being that negotiation allows the eventual loser (the NBA you end up living with for 41+ more years) to save some ego, the second devalues what you gain by what you associate with (they are evil, we want to be part of that, we are a little evil by wanting to be part).
Forcing the end game before you “talk”, presenting the false sense of choice, makes it look like they had some power and control, even when they don’t.
I agree with Brian.
April 23rd, 2008 at 9:29 pm
Did we just have a Britney Spears reference on this site?…
April 23rd, 2008 at 9:30 pm
Also, I have a question:
Is the $75mm we need from the State a tax that is generated in King County?
How come the damn State has to authorize it then?
April 23rd, 2008 at 9:39 pm
clinton coming to blazer land maybe we can get her view…
sounds like she will do or say anything for money these day..
okla is a red state… after all
April 23rd, 2008 at 9:41 pm
“but can I ask why are these emails being made public? Why didnt they all come out at once rather then separated? But shouldnt they all be private info between the lawyers and parties involved? Just curious!”
There is no expectation of privacy in most law suits. They are, by design, public maters. It is only in relatively rare circumstances that the courts will impose limits on the disemination of informaton from discovey. Those circumstances probably do not apply here.
April 23rd, 2008 at 9:41 pm
“City to press lawsuit against Sonics owners:
Settlement ruled out by Schultz’s legal action”
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/basketball/360379_arena24.html
SAVE THESE KD-LED SONICS!
go get ‘em, Howard!
April 23rd, 2008 at 9:51 pm
just want to clarity my statement about not settling. i agree w laperbo completely, i dont want to jump at an offer of an expansion team as the pressure on clay increases, and the possibility of him selling increases. i dont think some people recognize it, but durant is such a rare talent. add that to the fact that clay obtained the team through such unscrupulous means, and i dont want that rewarded. if expansion is the answer, they can have an expansion team. we shouldnt have to wait three yrs for a team, if that is the offer, then sorry, i personally would not advocate that.
April 23rd, 2008 at 9:52 pm
OK, so I just got back into town and have a few questions.
1) Is the email about fliping the team the new email or is there another email still to come?
2) I read the article about Bennett possibly requesting a dismisal and Schultx filing an injunction, where is that in the process?
3) why is Bennett such an F-tard (I stole this word from someone who posted it a few days back, I think I shot milk or something out my nose when I read it) when it comes to discussing potentially sensative material and using the one traceable format? I mean really, what an idiot.
And my opinion on why Stern is so steadfastly defending Bennett is the allow other owners to hlod their cities hostage for arena money. He may even be under pressure from more than just Nemmett on this front. If the city wins and the new owners are forced to find their own funding, that sets a bad president for the rest of the country who may actually stand up to sports franchises and say build your own arena.
And I must comment on teh Banknorth Center in Boston. WOW! It is a very nice building inside, not so much outside. It is giant, take the Key lower level, add 10 rows, than put 2 levels of suites above that, than add the lower level on top of that, than suspend another level of suited from the ceiling and you have Banknorth. The entire Key would fit in there. And there are so many concessions that even with the game sold out I was second in line for beer when I got in line. And the people working the concessions were not on work release or functionally retarded like most of the Aramark employees at the Key. But in my observation of game one, I only saw two guys stand when the HAwks were shooting free throws and wave the towels they gave p[eople on the way in. I know they were expected to win, but I didnt see the passion you would assume a team like the Celtics would get.
April 23rd, 2008 at 9:57 pm
Well damn. There you have it. So no settlement at all.
I guess we are in this till the end? Or is this more rhetoric from Nickels?
April 23rd, 2008 at 9:57 pm
“That’s the thing though, Bennett didn’t state that it was his desire to own the team long term in Seattle, he said he desired to see the team stay long term. Many here speculated back in 2006 that the reason Bennett got into this game was to get an arena deal and then flip it for a profit and an expansion team.” {Dick Tate}
I thought that from the get-go.
Again, the e-mail wherein the Professional Basketball Club, LLC openly admits that it wanted to “flip” the Seattle SuperSonics for a profit — so long as a publicly funded state-of-the-art, multipurpose facility (i.e., the King County Events Center) was built within the region — seemingly gives credence to Clayton Bennett and his cronies in this case.
It ostensibly indicates that they had an overt intention to keep the SuperSonics as a local enterprise, albeit under financially self-serving circumstances. At this juncture of the “roller coaster ride,” Howard Schultz apparently realizes that he’s responsible for creating this mess and, as a result, is looking for a means whereby he can fix his tarnished image.
I’m neither a legal nor a psychological expert, though.
April 23rd, 2008 at 10:02 pm
“Settlement ruled out by Schultz’s legal action”
so I would assume that slade and city attorneys feel that schultz has a good chance. so who makes the ultimate call here, slade, ceis, mayor??
April 23rd, 2008 at 10:02 pm
Of course the City will consider settling if Bennett and the league will give it what it wants. The question is what will satisfy the City? A big cash settlement? An expansion team? Or nothing less than the current Sonics? I hope they exhaust all avenues for the last options before even considering anything less.
April 23rd, 2008 at 10:03 pm
Thanks for the comments BR… I would agree with you that:
1. If Stern made the phone call/offer you describe above of course we take it.
2. The lawsuits are a framework for negotiation and we should be firm and use the leverage we have while trying hard to keep communication open with Stern/Clay.
3. “Talking does not mean you take a bad deal.” - certainly true.
4. I would agree at this point in the process it might be better to say to the NBA… “Our priority is a continuous NBA presence in Seattle” rather than demanding this team period, to get conversations going.
I think where you & I may differ - is while we both would prefer that we keep THIS Sonics team here - for me this is something I ultimately would not give up on - where it sounds like you could see yourself accepting a promise of expansion team or buying another cities team if you believed it was that or no NBA in Seattle.
I know different people on this web site who all love the Sonics have different positions on this. My position is not rooted in hatred or anger toward Clay or Stern. It just reflects my own values/opinions
I honestly would rather have no NBA than take another cities team or accept a promise of a future expansion team.
Sometimes in negotiations you can’t know what you can get unless you are willing to walk away from the deal and then see if the other party calls you back as they fear they really will lose the deal. If it comes down to the NBA saying “expansion or nothing”, I’m willing to respond with “No deal - It is These Sonics or Nothing” and I’d be willing to live with the results of that risk even if it did not go my way. I also think taking that risk might be the only way you could get what you want depending on how the negotiations play out.
All of us want the best scenario - KD & these Sonics stay with local owners and a beautiful new arena. (The goal and focus should not be revenge etc.on Clay & Stern). There are some differences on what we would or would not be willing to live with in terms of expansion, taking another cities team or being without the NBA altogether.
Let’s hope the best case scenario works out.
April 23rd, 2008 at 10:03 pm
I am sure Ceis would not make a announcement like this without the go ahead from Nickels..who wouldn’t do this without skeletor’s consent.
April 23rd, 2008 at 10:05 pm
1)The flip email is the new email. It was revealed to the public with Howard’s suit.
2)They have to get before a judge first. If the city wins its suit, an injunction may not be necessary.
3)Inbreeding
April 23rd, 2008 at 10:05 pm
Tim,
1)The flip email is the new email. It was revealed to the public with Howard’s suit.
2)They have to get before a judge first. If the city wins its suit, an injunction may not be necessary.
3)Inbreeding
April 23rd, 2008 at 10:06 pm
Maybe Clay was referring to “Flip” Murray?
April 23rd, 2008 at 10:07 pm
From Johns recent article tonight:
Griffin said his group continues to “keep an open mind” toward potential developments.
“We’re pretty much on the sidelines at the moment,” Griffin said. “If somebody thinks we’re important to help in the program, we still believe we need a competitive arena. And to have that, the Legislature has to take action to empower the city to raise $75 more million. That would clearly be helpful and allow us to come back into the game, if that’s useful.
“I still believe that without that, it’s hard to have the right negotiation with the NBA and owners.”
April 23rd, 2008 at 10:08 pm
i was undecide as to wether to post this today or not, but seeing as we are still divided into two groups on this issue of expansion/replacement team i will:
i had a good chance to sit down last nigh and really think about what brian said yesterday and after a good while i have come to this conclusion: im all in for this team (i have stated that for me its this team or none and i stand by that) however i also dont want fellow sonics fans to be left with nothing in this whole shit deal. so my top priority is this team, but if it comes down to it and a replacement team is the best outcome we can get then so be it. my support is behind brian and sos to do the best they can, and i think everyone else on here who is in the all in crowd should follow this lead too. my support is there until the conclusion and if that conclusion is a replacement team then when its all over and fellow sonics fans have sonics basketball then im out. i have no desire to watch a replacement, but i also have no desire to see others with no team, sure i want stern and the nba to go down, but realaistically it aint gonna happen. and lets face it, those of us in the all in crowd have mostly lost all interest in the nba now anyway, no matter which way this plays out, i know i have. so i put it to everyone who is in the all in crowd to throw your support behind sos for a favorable outcome, it might not be what we all want but at the end of the day at least our fellow sonics fans will be able to enjoy sonics basketball. i dont want my stance and lack of support for a favorable outcome to hurt them, so ill keep sendin emails and links to everyone i can think of and when its all said and done ill either be here with you with this team, or ill gracefully walk away from and expansion team knowing that in some little way i helped my fellow sonics fans get something out of this shit situation.
April 23rd, 2008 at 10:10 pm
Can’t wait to see what this new email in Percy’s article says!
April 23rd, 2008 at 10:13 pm
well said jj, i am concerned that we are so desperate that we say yes to expansion when we are in a position of leverage to keep this team. clay lied, cheated, etc. on principle, not revenge, spite, or hatred, he should have to wait for a team.
April 23rd, 2008 at 10:14 pm
Maybe the City knows there will be much worse emails that come out..so they have dropped any ideas of settlement? They must think that Schultz has a iron clad case to drop settlement talks so soon.
April 23rd, 2008 at 10:16 pm
In John’s PI article Ceis pretty much says we cannot expect any financial help from Olympia in 2008. Sounds like Slade is still pushing for this vision.
Griffin seems to say finding the other 75 million is essential - it won’t come from Ballmer & co.
When Ballmer first came out it seemed to me that with 225 of the 300 million needed committed I felt very optimistic there would be a way to find the rest. Crazy to me Olympia just won’t get on board.
April 23rd, 2008 at 10:17 pm
I bet the email will be something to the effect that: Hey guys maybe we should not talk so much via email it could come back to bite us…
In my brihttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DFAFHzJnggwef history of emails and litigation that one always pops up. It is amost like there is no filter from the brain to the keypad. Lord knows I am guilty of that…
on that note..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DFAFHzJnggw
April 23rd, 2008 at 10:20 pm
Laporbo Says:
“I think what scares people about settlement talk is that it seems really early to take that road. The fear is jumping at the NBAs offer of a new team when in the long run you could have won your original team. People are afraid that just talking settlement means that they will jump at the first offer and bail on the real goal.”
EXACTLY. It is waaay too early in the legal game to be talking about “settling” for a worthless promise of an expansion team or a team from another city in the “future.” I call BS on that.
To me, the term “settlement” means we drop all legal action against Bennett’s OKie Franchise Rustlers in exchange for him selling the team to Ballmer. That’s a perfectly fair deal, given the obvious bad faith effort and conspiratorial actions by Stern and Bennett.
Stern set up this whole play from the very beginning. Bennett was going to 1) use the obvious threat of relocation to extort a free $500 million arena from this region and then sell the team back to Seattle for a nice profit; or if that failed - as both Stern and Bennett knew it would - he was going to 2) steal team and run back to OKC with 2 years left on the lease.
If we’re not going to stand up and call BS now, after 41 years, then what will it take for us to call BS? Would we call BS if they asked us to also kick in for Bennett’s moving expenses to OKC? Would that be bad enough, or would the pathetic appeasers in our crowd instead offer to just split the bill 50/50 with them?
How much is enough? How much are you willing to take? Myself, I’m done taking their shyat. No more. None. What they did was, is, and will always be, WRONG. I don’t suffer fools gladly, and I don’t appease CHEATERS.
If expansion is an option, great - OKC can have the next new team. If anothe existing franchise may be available to relocate sooner rather than later, great - OKC can have them. But this team is our team. I don’t care if they’ve sucked for 9 of th epast 10 years. I don’t care if they’re a “virtual” expansion team now. They’re our team. Period. If OKC wants a team, they can find one somewhere else. This deal reeked from the very beginning, as Mark Cuban said: “Howard Schultz was sold a bill of goods by the NBA.” Figure it out people - it’s pretty obvious what he meant by that. Stern orchestrated this whole scenario from the start. And now Seattle is supposed to just roll over, play nice, and settle with the bad guys? Sorry, but I gotta call BS.
For the first time I can remember, I agree with the Groz: this process isn’t about “saving the NBA” in Seattle. To hell with the NBA. This is about Saving Our Sonics. Anyone who can’t see or understand the difference doesn’t deserve to be in the battle.
April 23rd, 2008 at 10:20 pm
The pressure just keeps going up on Clay & Stern. I have alot of confidence in our legal boys.
April 23rd, 2008 at 10:22 pm
In a vacuum the flip email might not be that damning but this case doesn’t exist there. There is Aubrey’s “we didn’t buy the team … ” quote and the “man possessed” email along with whatever evidence we haven’t seen yet but exists. All of this speaks to intent, which is the basis for Schultz’s case.
April 23rd, 2008 at 10:22 pm
I don’t see how one can read the “flip” email and think that it supports Clay’s case. Read in conjunction with the other emails, it plainly demonstrates that his overriding goal from the beginning was to get the Sonics to OKC. Actually succeeding in getting an arena built was clearly the less-preferred outcome, though it did have some benefits, as Clay recognized– the ability to flip the team for a profit, earning Stern’s gratitude, and (hopefully) putting OKC in line for another team.
April 23rd, 2008 at 10:23 pm
And the people working the concessions were not on work release or functionally retarded like most of the Aramark employees at the Key.
- LOL!!!
- Also, based on Brian’s post I am pretty sure that he is saying that Percy will have another article tomorrow with another email from Clay. I doubt he would call a two day old email “new”
April 23rd, 2008 at 10:25 pm
I like Brian’s 3rd option. We keep our team and Clay gets the expansion team in 2 or 3 years. That will give New Orleans time to work their situation out and it will make Oklahoma start from the ground up like it should be.
April 23rd, 2008 at 10:26 pm
“Griffin seems to say finding the other 75 million is essential - it won’t come from Ballmer & co.”
man, is there any way that balmer’s group can ‘bridge’ that 75M (first of all I can’t believe I am asking that). But, as ridiculous a it sounds, there is that promissory letter. Would think it would be embarrassing if the legislature backs out on their ‘promise’. It’s not my pocketbook, but instead of begging to the nba for an expansion, maybe we should be begging to balmer.
April 23rd, 2008 at 10:28 pm
I don’t see how one can read the “flip” email and think that it supports Clay’s case. Read in conjunction with the other emails, it plainly demonstrates that his overriding goal from the beginning was to get the Sonics to OKC. Actually succeeding in getting an arena built was clearly the less-preferred outcome, though it did have some benefits, as Clay recognized– the ability to flip the team for a profit, earning Stern’s gratitude, and (hopefully) putting OKC in line for another team.
- I guess I don’t agree that the “flipping” was even considered a reasonable outcome for this ownership group for the following reasons:
1) It is QUITE obvious that no matter what the OKC owners did not want to own a team in Seattle.
2) When they purchased the team they over spent for the team by about $80 million dollars
3) At the time of the purchase there was no evidence of a local ownership group who wanted the team
To assume that they found the “flip a team” option as even legitame you have to also assume that they would have been willing to sit on the team if they were not able to find local owners after getting the Arena built.
I do not believe that they were willing to be “stuck” with a team in Seattle no matter how big and beautiful the Arena was…so they didn’t put their heart into it.
It’d be like if you found a old home in OKC and could purchase it and as part of a government program you would’ve had a 1-100,000 chance to win money to renovate the house and sell it for an small profit. Would you really consider making that deal…knowing there was a very good chance that you might not be able to sell the house after the fact?
April 23rd, 2008 at 10:29 pm
This is a complete joke!
Decisions on a sporting teams (not franchises, or organizations) should be made by those who buy season tickets as they are here in Australia. I have been a supporter of the Sonics for 15 years. When you start calling players - products, you know there is something wrong. I have really lost faith in the integrity of american sport.
I will not support any team that is run by Clay Bennett (regardless of the squad).
April 23rd, 2008 at 10:34 pm
Good on ya mate!!
April 23rd, 2008 at 10:34 pm
dick, they stated that they intended to own the team and be in this market long term, and that was a selling point. Flipping is not an intent going in to be the long term ownership group in the Seattle market. That’s the reasoning in the court paper. It is kind of light unless you read it in context, it is pretty convincing. They did not intend to own here long term no matter what, also, when things were not going well Bennett start promoting OKC 8 months into the process, and Howard’s case ties that back to show that as the result of the original intent that is counter to the expressed commitment they made to Howard’s group.
I am not saying it is great, just that the flip comment does support the claim.
April 23rd, 2008 at 10:36 pm
Do not settle for a “promise” of an expansion team. Do not trust the NBA!! The “we’ll take your team and replace it later” isn’t working real well in Charlotte!!!
April 23rd, 2008 at 10:38 pm
I agree with the vast majority of Brian’s post from 8:50. If Stern calls with that offer (drop the lawsuits and Clay sells the team) you accept it graciously, ask him if there’s anything else he needs us to do to help balance out the media/PR aspect of it, and we start planning our celebration.
BUT - if he calls and says “drop the lawsuits or you’ll never ever see another NBA game in Seattle” I’d say “see you in court” and hang up the phone. We have some leverage - now is the time to see what it will get us. To my way of thinking, keeping this team isn’t Option #1 - it’s the ONLY option. Either Bennett sells or we go the distance in court - win or lose. Period. I cannot see how anyone can argue that it’s a good thing to let these guys pull a stunt like this and then essentially reward them for it by letting the team go! How does that accmplish anything.
What does that say for us as fans - that we’re cool with trading our team of 40+ years for the promise of some other team we don’t even know and don’t care about just because Stern said so?! Why would anyone want to be party to that? If there was such a thing as a Sports Fan’s Constitution, wouldn’t this idea of settling for some other team be just about the worst imaginable violation of what it means to be a fan?
Just saying…
April 23rd, 2008 at 10:42 pm
do you see this in seths enjoy the enjoyment
“Never talk when you can nod, and never nod when you can wink, and never write an e-mail because it’s death. You’re giving prosecutors all the evidence we need.”
–Eliot Spitzer
April 23rd, 2008 at 10:49 pm
Part of the reason why I don’t like the deal idea(at this point) is bcuz it seems this guy is finally on the ropes after all his sucker punches & low blows he’s dealt to this community. It just seems like a knock out punch could be coming at any time, and he deserves it…
April 23rd, 2008 at 10:54 pm
I hear u Courtsense…
April 23rd, 2008 at 10:57 pm
the point is… Moot
The city is following through to give Howard’s case a better chance since the team will be held here while Howard’s case is happening.
April 23rd, 2008 at 11:06 pm
If the Govs promise of the 75m next year is legit, then it seems like we have the option of buying enough time with the court cases. What would the 75m do for us right now anyway after the vote? She’s basically made her promise for the money publicly for next year, so the timing could be just right depending on how the court cases go….
April 23rd, 2008 at 11:13 pm
You guys are going to give each other all heart attacks. I think the situation is looking good…let’s be thankful that it looks much rosier than it did a month ago.
And Zonics, et al: I’m trying to put up the link for the video. Do any of you know off hand how to get a video to actually show in a blogspot?
(I’d rather put the whole video there rather than just link the youtube)
April 23rd, 2008 at 11:16 pm
Just read that PI story. They must have something good if their gonna take that approach. If they don’t make a deal, bcuz of Howards case, then HS must have something good otherwise he could look like the bad guy twice. First for selling to OKC guys, second for filing a lawsuit that prevents city from dealing.
April 23rd, 2008 at 11:18 pm
Don’t worry folks, Paul has not left the reservation. The one thing we will NOT allow the City to do is take a cash only buy out. They have said they will not consider one and we won’t let them take it. They also have to know that if they did take a buyout and then the court then prevented the move pending the outcome of the Schultz case the city would have a real mess on their hands.
Secondly we have Clay by the short hairs right now. He has to settle this out or agree to stay through the end of the lease. The NBA is not going to let him make a laughing stock of the league in court.
Thirdly Stern and Bennett have talked tough about sticking this out for two years but the reality is that it isn’t the money that makes that unlikely it is the damage to the league, sponsors, players, broadcast partners, etc that will force them to solve the problem and avoid the lame duck years.
So don’t panic, SOS is not going to sell out the fans.
April 23rd, 2008 at 11:21 pm
I must refer to my cohort 2R Sonics on that but check your email.
April 23rd, 2008 at 11:24 pm
Zonics: Yeah, I got that. I’ll just put up the link for now and then I’ll see if I can find someone to load the whole video.
April 23rd, 2008 at 11:26 pm
Here’s a novel idea: let’s allow OKC to come into Seattle and remove the Mariners and the Seahawks…and in exchange for letting them go - without a fight - we’ll simply ask MLB and the NFL to give us 1) each team’s logos, colors and histories, 2) a cash donation of $50 million for each team, and 3) a promise that we get the next available “replacement” teams whenever they get around to it.
How’s that sound? That’s fair, right? I mean, we wouldn’t want to tick off the MLB and NFL Commissioners by employing some kind of “scorched earth” policy, right? What? You don’t like that?
Why not? What’s the big deal? The Mariners and Seahawks are just players wearing uniforms anyway - plus it’s not like they’ve ever won anything. The Mariners have never even made it to a World Series for God’s sake - what’s the big deal if we have to start over - they might actually win for a change!
And the Hawks - they blew the Super Bowl. Maybe if we get an NFL expansion team, we’ll get an extra draft pick or something. Plus, you have to remember, these 2 teams have only been here since the mid-70’s anyway - that’s far less than 40 years!
What’s the big attachment? All we care about is seeing Major League Baseball and the National Football League right? This isn’t about the teams or the players, it’s The Game that really matters, right? Cuz’ that’s what you said about the Sonics - it’s the game, right? Besides, we’ll still have the M’s colors and the Hawks’ history - so what’s the problem?
And hey - don’t forget about the money! MLB and the NFL are gonna give us $100 million! Think of all the things we can do with the money! We’ll pay off the bonds on Safeco and Qwest! We can set some of it aside for when we get the next teams!
C’mon everybody, get on board! Heck, the 3-5 years we have to wait for baseball and football to come back to town will go by in the blink of an eye - and besides, in the meantime, we’ll just watch the M’s and Hawks on TV - live from OKC! It’ll be great to see if Felix becomes the next Doc Gooden, or if Ichiro breaks the hits record. And wait till you see Tatupu in an OKC uniform! All we have to do to make it happen is just bend over, close our eyes, and TAKE IT.
Who’s with me?!
April 23rd, 2008 at 11:27 pm
Now comes the fun part, hopefully one of the admins can put this at the top of a thread.
We have done a find job of functioning with very little funds for the last two years but now we have some pressing needs that need to be funded. We are about to set out on a pretty aggressive program the next 60 days and it is going to take some funding to make it happen.
Since the “bad guys” read this I won’t go into details but we need folks to step up and donate to the cause. 20 or 50 dollars helps but 3 or 4 digit donations are going to have to come in to raise the funding we need in the short time period we have to raise it.
We hate to ask for money but we wouldn’t unless we felt it could have a big impact on the situation and this can.
You can donate via paypal (link on saveoursonics.org) or mail a check to Save Our Sonics via P.O. Box 2622 Kirkland, WA 98083
April 23rd, 2008 at 11:30 pm
Hey,
I’ve been gone the last day or two, anything of interest happening?
April 23rd, 2008 at 11:32 pm
If the Clay Clays and Pals were dumb enough to try and defraud a wonderful city like Seattle then I seriously doubt that they are going to all of a sudden be reasonable and want to settle.
I would fathom a guess that they have convinced themselves that they are still acting in GOOD FAITH. We shall know soon enough..because CLay was under oath today… Dam i wish I could have seen him sweat…. wait I still may… didn’t Bill Clinton’s Monica scandal deposition make it to national TV??(public record??
any legal eagles want to chime in on if we will actually get to see the Clay Clay deposition.(if it was even video taped)
April 23rd, 2008 at 11:35 pm
Through one of the admin get a hold of me I’ve got someway’s we can get a couple bucks for the cause, just don’t want to mention them online.
For those interested I have an update on The Draft as well.
April 23rd, 2008 at 11:36 pm
We’re up!
http://thesouthfloridafan.blogspot.com/2008/04/sonics-update-messy-but-good.html
April 23rd, 2008 at 11:39 pm
I think everyone’s funds went to te Hillary campaign today (didn’t she raise $10 million in 24 hours? Clearly, a lot of people really want her over Obama).
In all seriousness, I don’t think I can ask The South Florida Fan people for funding for SOS. We can lend our efforts, but we have our own projects we need finances for. I wish I could be of more help there.
April 23rd, 2008 at 11:39 pm
BTW how mad is this guy at his name being cursed every 10 seconds..
http://www.claybennett.com/about.html
April 23rd, 2008 at 11:43 pm
Btw, if you guys want a little comic break, look at this ABSOLUTELY HORRIBLE call:
http://awfulannouncing.blogspot.com/2008/04/anti-homer-call-of-day-atlanta-braves.html
Soooooo bad.
April 23rd, 2008 at 11:44 pm
SFF,
Dude you’ve went above and beyond, don’t even worry about coin at this point.
But you do bring up a good point, Clinton, Obama, McCain, Ron Paul, and others have rasied a ton on the net, maybe we do need to do a little one day “Pledge Drive” could be worth some duckets.
April 23rd, 2008 at 11:47 pm
saving my money for opening night at Key Arena this fall, plan on it.
April 23rd, 2008 at 11:50 pm
4020,
Absolutely. And you should give people the chance to make small contributions too. Maybe even come up with higher donor perks (names enshrined in new arena or something…)
I could see 5,000 people giving $20 on an emotional day…$100,000 would go a long way.
April 23rd, 2008 at 11:52 pm
Oh, man. I saw “Clay Bennect Deposed” and I thought you meant deposed like King Louis XVI of France.
Oh, well. One might lead to the other.
April 23rd, 2008 at 11:52 pm
Mr. Baker Says:
“saving my money for opening night at Key Arena this fall, plan on it.”
Absolutely. I wonder how many more nights we’ll see like that last Dallas game…fans going crazy in support of OUR Sonics.
I gotta believe more than a few…especially if Rose comes to town.
Opening Night will be a blast this year!
April 23rd, 2008 at 11:53 pm
WOOT SFF, ALL CLAY’s BASE Are belonging to Apeman’s Sonics stuff.
April 23rd, 2008 at 11:53 pm
Watch this video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AOJIM5-Zmv0
April 23rd, 2008 at 11:53 pm
Thanks Zonics! Not only do I have both videos up now, but I now know how to put videos up in the future without bothering one of our tech guys.
http://thesouthfloridafan.blogspot.com/2008/04/sonics-update-messy-but-good.html
Thanks!
April 23rd, 2008 at 11:58 pm
“Since the “bad guys” read this I won’t go into details but we need folks to step up and donate to the cause. 20 or 50 dollars helps but 3 or 4 digit donations are going to have to come in to raise the funding we need in the short time period we have to raise it.” {S.O.S.}
I’ll restrain myself this time.
April 24th, 2008 at 12:27 am
Ok, I’m coming in late tonight… what do i need to donate money to? Are we raising the $75 million ourselves?? Someone explain.
April 24th, 2008 at 12:28 am
No new email…
April 24th, 2008 at 1:27 am
They can’t have our Green And Gold.
Let them take Memphis’ shit blue and goonie grey.
April 24th, 2008 at 2:20 am
It’s a shame that it had to come to this to get a decent arena/lease for the Sonics. Shame on Seattle, Washington. Only the fans who didn’t vote for I91 are exempt. Shame on the city, county and state politicians. Shame on Barry Ackerley for signing that lease so he could sell the team and profit so much. Shame on Stern for his lies and underhanded dealings. Shame on the okies for their lies and attempted theft.
April 24th, 2008 at 5:07 am
Okay I just made a donation to SOS, I hope the money is used for something good!
Otto
April 24th, 2008 at 7:16 am
I wonder if Clay has a new understanding of the situation after the questioning yesterday?
April 24th, 2008 at 7:18 am
Mitch is going to read the entire letter that Howard sent to the BCOS
April 24th, 2008 at 7:23 am
Where is the percy story with another email? Does he not want to overshadow Tim Ceis about not settling?
April 24th, 2008 at 7:44 am
I gotta believe more than a few…especially if Rose comes to town.
- So….everyone keeps talking about keeping OUR Sonics because with Kevin Durant, Jeff Green and Derrick Rose we will be unstoppable.
Is everyone’s feelings going to change if it ends up being Kevin Durant, Jeff Gree and DeAndre Jordan/Brook Lopez??
The one thing I’ve seen on this board way too much lately is everyone assuming we are going to get Derrick Rose on our team.
April 24th, 2008 at 7:49 am
Nope. While Rose is more appealing, I still want to keep KD.
April 24th, 2008 at 8:04 am
Myk - KD is the straw that stirs the drink. Green is an excellent compliment. Rose/Mayo/Lopez, Collison, Wilcox, whoever will be anything from excellent sidekick components to aight role players (note: there is no room here for Beasley).
These Sonics, and Seattle pro sports for the next 10 years has the potential to thrive with KD leading the charge.
SAVE THESE SONICS!
April 24th, 2008 at 8:14 am
“that would be a settlement and by your logic we would turn it down to fight the fight!”
Brian, c’mon bro, that is not what we are saying! Honestly, we ar esaying don’t settle IF it means LESS than this team. If Stern called today and said all of that AND did it..then totally different story. However, even still this goes beyond the Sonics. This issue now also speaks to accountability and precedent. If this thing does go the whole nine-yards it means a LEGAL decision will be rendered, and that really doesn’t bode well for Clay or Stern.
April 24th, 2008 at 8:17 am
As much as I am on the Rose bandwagon, I think that Beasley is the obvious choice should Rose be gone when the Sonics draft. His athleticism is outstanding. He pulls power forwards out to 25ft. He can take the slower ones off the dribble. The Sonics could go “small” with Green, Durant, Beasley, Collison, Watson. They could have an amazing substitution system by putting any two of Beasley/Durant/Green while the other gets some needed rest. The Sonics could target a veteran like Ron Artest of Elton Brand in the off-season and then draft a tallbody like Thabeet or Hibbert with their 2nd first round pick.
I don’t think it’s prudent to get an undersized/small guard (bayless/gordon) or a stiff (lopez) should Rose be gone when the Sonics select. What does everyone else think?
April 24th, 2008 at 8:22 am
Wasn’t there talk of some kind of SOS meeting this week? Any details?
April 24th, 2008 at 8:26 am
Brian,
When I say “no settlement”, I actually mean no settlement that involves us losing this KD-led Sonics team. I shudder at the thought of having to support a nu-Bobcats expansionish franchise, regardless of whether or not they brought in a GP-type of figure to be an executive/owner, (as the Cats did with Jordan).
In addition, I am strictly against stealing another city’s team, no matter how much that city and team may officially want to divorce (i.e. the Grizz). I’m a huge Rudy Gay fan and all, but I’d be too concerned with doing to their loyal fans what OKC Clay is doing to us.
Thanks for all your hard work, and I hope that you don’t take my SAVE THESE KD-LED SONICS rants as a push to make life harder for you. That would never be my intention. I just have a strong belief that KD has the potential to be the positive face of a winning Sonics franchise (and Seattle pro sports) for years to come, and am thus commited to a solution invloving him staying in Seattle with this team.
April 24th, 2008 at 8:28 am
Just a thought . . . Bennett sabotaged the team pretty well this year. If he thinks he has a chance to lose either of these upcoming trials, do you think he might sabotage the draft as well? He might just forego the most rational draft choice. I wouldn’t put it past him.
April 24th, 2008 at 8:28 am
Beasley is a no brainer if he is still available and Rose is gone. Those two are elite prospects and everyone else is a tier below them. The character risk scares me a lot with Beasley, but you can’t pass on that kind of talent. He could be a 20-10 guy right off the bat.
April 24th, 2008 at 8:33 am
“We’re pretty much on the sidelines at the moment,” Griffin said. “If somebody thinks we’re important to help in the program, we still believe we need a competitive arena. And to have that, the Legislature has to take action to empower the city to raise $75 more million. That would clearly be helpful and allow us to come back into the game, if that’s useful.
“I still believe that without that, it’s hard to have the right negotiation with the NBA and owners.”
Hunsinger, who is frequently involved in local sports cases, said he believes Schultz has a good chance of getting his case to trial, “which would be a significant triumph in itself.”
But while much has been made of a newly discovered e-mail correspondence from Bennett to his partners two days before the sale in which he talked of doing a “sweet flip” to sell the team and get another in Oklahoma City if Seattle actually financed an arena, Hunsinger doesn’t feel that revelation strengthens the case.
“He can say what he means is he’d be amenable to a sweet flip to sell to a Seattle buyer,” Hunsinger said. “That’s not theoretically inconsistent with making a good faith effort to keep the team in Seattle. It does indicate he’d be willing to sell to somebody else, which is different than his public pronouncements. So there’s a little chink in the armor there, but his lawyer can spin that one.
“That doesn’t mean it’s not a decent lawsuit, though. There’d been talk of this being an antitrust case, which would have been very complex. This is a very simple suit regarding whether or not Bennett et al complied with their written contractual duty to act in good faith effort to find an arena.”"
An arena deal is still the the principal factor. it’s amazing that noone in Seattle can still get the deal done. Still beat back by the POLs with a hose.
This is what the problem is and why we are n this situation. Another question for Brian:
Totally understanding in your mind that keeping the team is the priority over all others; what’s your take on what Seattle basketball will be like if Ballmers group does get the team. By all accounts none of those guys want to be a majority owner and are doing this as a civic gesture to keep the team.
Let’s remove Bennett’s name from the equation and just say that now we have a front office to be proud of, A GM that now what he is doing(Green trade, Lewis and Thomas transactions) and basically he had the guts to strip the team down and lose the so called “stars” so he could rebuild and hopefully put together a team that will be a contender. None of this happened during the last two Sonic’s administrations and I would correlate that to the same weak and feeble leadership that did not press the issue well enough to get the arena we need to compete financially.
You’re are smart enough to know that a brand name owner in one industry does not automatically transfer to running a succesful b-ball franchise. Th owneer has to be headstrong and push his agenda through for the good of the team. Every other succsful franchise has done this; Spurs, Mavs, Lakers, Jazz and on and on…
My beef has always been with that and Bennett’s ownership gave me a glimse of what things could be like. naturally losing the team to another state is not what I was bargaining for. But again, why is here here in the first place?
April 24th, 2008 at 8:33 am
“We’re pretty much on the sidelines at the moment,” Griffin said. “If somebody thinks we’re important to help in the program, we still believe we need a competitive arena. And to have that, the Legislature has to take action to empower the city to raise $75 more million. That would clearly be helpful and allow us to come back into the game, if that’s useful.
“I still believe that without that, it’s hard to have the right negotiation with the NBA and owners.”
Hunsinger, who is frequently involved in local sports cases, said he believes Schultz has a good chance of getting his case to trial, “which would be a significant triumph in itself.”
But while much has been made of a newly discovered e-mail correspondence from Bennett to his partners two days before the sale in which he talked of doing a “sweet flip” to sell the team and get another in Oklahoma City if Seattle actually financed an arena, Hunsinger doesn’t feel that revelation strengthens the case.
“He can say what he means is he’d be amenable to a sweet flip to sell to a Seattle buyer,” Hunsinger said. “That’s not theoretically inconsistent with making a good faith effort to keep the team in Seattle. It does indicate he’d be willing to sell to somebody else, which is different than his public pronouncements. So there’s a little chink in the armor there, but his lawyer can spin that one.
“That doesn’t mean it’s not a decent lawsuit, though. There’d been talk of this being an antitrust case, which would have been very complex. This is a very simple suit regarding whether or not Bennett et al complied with their written contractual duty to act in good faith effort to find an arena.”"
An arena deal is still the the principal factor. it’s amazing that noone in Seattle can still get the deal done. Still beat back by the POLs with a hose.
This is what the problem is and why we are n this situation. Another question for Brian:
Totally understanding in your mind that keeping the team is the priority over all others; what’s your take on what Seattle basketball will be like if Ballmers group does get the team. By all accounts none of those guys want to be a majority owner and are doing this as a civic gesture to keep the team.
Let’s remove Bennett’s name from the equation and just say that now we have a front office to be proud of, A GM that now what he is doing(Green trade, Lewis and Thomas transactions) and basically he had the guts to strip the team down and lose the so called “stars” so he could rebuild and hopefully put together a team that will be a contender. None of this happened during the last two Sonic’s administrations and I would correlate that to the same weak and feeble leadership that did not press the issue well enough to get the arena we need to compete financially.
You’re are smart enough to know that a brand name owner in one industry does not automatically transfer to running a succesful b-ball franchise. Th owneer has to be headstrong and push his agenda through for the good of the team. Every other succsful franchise has done this; Spurs, Mavs, Lakers, Jazz and on and on…
My beef has always been with that and Bennett’s ownership gave me a glimse of what things could be like. naturally losing the team to another state is not what I was bargaining for. But again, why is he here in the first place?
April 24th, 2008 at 8:33 am
“If he thinks he has a chance to lose either of these upcoming trials, do you think he might sabotage the draft as well?”
That was covered in Howard’s brief. Before the draft if the case gets through the prelim’s they’ll have an injunction to state that nothing can be done to purposely harm the product while this litigation is in the system.
April 24th, 2008 at 8:35 am
Haha. Beasely could be a 20-10 guy, sure. But it seems that he could also be a booked-into-the-county-jail-for-graffiti-ing guy just as easily…
We need a distributor, someone to protect and move the ball around effectively. Point guard has been a hole in the lineup since GP left. How would there ever be enough shots available to keep KD, Green, Beasley, and everyone else happy? At least one of those studs would be bound to bolt after their rookie deal for a better opportunity elsewhere.
April 24th, 2008 at 8:36 am
Question: what exactly will the SOS donations be going toward? I’d be happy to support the cause but would like to get some specifics (to the extent you can provide them without letting the “bad guys” in on your plans). Thanks.
April 24th, 2008 at 8:38 am
“When I say “no settlement”, I actually mean no settlement that involves us losing this KD-led Sonics team.”
But if that’s the case you have to be willing to sit down at the table and still negotiate. You can’t go into a tizzy everytime the word settlement is mentioned. None of us are in the room, we don’t know what the actual commentary will be like.
In the end, I trust Slade to do the right thing, and if he thinks that us getting an expansion franchise is the best that he could have done then I don’t have any reason to think that’s not true.
Just because you’re willing to go all-in with a dominated hand doesn’t mean that everyone should do the same.
At this moment, everyones goal here should be the same. Where it differentiates is going to depend on what’s said when sides sit down at the table. Going in with out a backup plan is rarely the best way to look at things.
April 24th, 2008 at 8:42 am
sorry, can’t read them all this morning but wanted to comment on Brian’s: “Are you guys aware that if David Stern called tomorrow and said “please drop the lawsuits. If you do Clay will sell, we’ll all issue written apologies, and I promise I will never enter Seattle city limits again.” that would be a settlement and by your logic we would turn it down to fight the fight!”
if someone is advocating for that they’re obviously misguided, but i know that’s not my point or the point of most anyone else as far as i can tell. of course we would all love to see Stern and Bennett frog-marched from the court and into the pokey. not going to happen. what i’m advocating is not to step forward at this point because all the momentum is on our side. they aren’t going to offer shit. they certainly aren’t going to step up to the table and say, “OK, you win, I’ll sell to Ballmer and leave town.”
the goal is to keep the Seattle Supersonics, Kevin Durant, Jeff Green, lottery pick and all. if Stern makes that phone call, of course the lawsuits end. but he isn’t going to so F*** HIM and his dusty friend. see you in court, bitches.
April 24th, 2008 at 8:53 am
Scott - I agree with your reasoning, and respect that school of thought. I just don’t think it makes biz sense for the league to expand, and like I said, it would be hard for me to get behind a team full of other teams’ rejects for an undetermined length of time. The curent Sonics team may be full of a bunch of developing and/or mediocre talent, but still, there’s that they’re our developing and/or subpar talent. The team is populated the players we’ve drafted and/or traded prior players away for. Expansion would break that cycle, for me at least…
Plus, perhaps its pride, but I would feel totally slighted to receive an expansion team after Seattle has faithfully supported these Sonics for 41 years. After everything that has happened, and especially with increasing potential for court victories and a possible Clay sell-off, a settlement may drive me away from supporting “those” Sonics after losing “our” Sonics…
But like I indicated, that’s just me. I agree with your thinking and respect your opinion.
April 24th, 2008 at 9:00 am
Just a quick thought. How does everybody think the Charlotte fans feel right now? Do you think they are totally supportive of the Bobcats and don’t really care they lost there team so many years ago, or do you think they are sick to there stomaches watching the New Orleans Hornets(charlotte hornets) in the playoffs looking like true contenders. I bet alot of the Charlotte citizens have turned there back on the NBA and thats why there seems to be no interest for the Bobcats. I can honestly say, if THIS team leaves, Im done with the NBA. I would hate to see the OKIE SONICS contending every year with Durant winning MVP’s. ONLY accept OUR team or take it all the way through trial and uncover some more crookedness from Stern and the NBA.
As far as the draft goes. If Clay Clay is still the owner of OUR team, we will get a top 2 pick, but if we get OUR team back and Clay Clay sells, we will end up with the 5th pick. Stern will make sure it happens. Do you really think we lucked out last year with the #2 pick? Stern just hooked his buddy up and gave him Durant to build his team around in OKIEVILLE. The League is RIGGED.
April 24th, 2008 at 9:01 am
I will say that if you think all the momentum is on our side you are readign the local papers. This is an absolute slugfest and they have literally BILLIONS moving on this. Last week the league voted for relocation 28-2.
I’m just curious for the “No settlement under any circumstances, take this team or nothing” people. As of today, when you make that statement give me your best idea of where our odds for success are as a percentage?
THIS IS A HYPOTHETICAL. If Slade Gorton told you that, after reading 10,000 e-mails and getting $500K of legal advice he viewed our chances at 25% to retain this team would you still have that stance? If you viewed our chances at 75% would you take the bet. That is a 1 in 4 chance that we get left absolutely cold turkey with NOTHING.
I’m curious your stance. Where do you see our current odds and what would they have to be for you to change it?
April 24th, 2008 at 9:02 am
“That was covered in Howard’s brief. Before the draft if the case gets through the prelim’s they’ll have an injunction to state that nothing can be done to purposely harm the product while this litigation is in the system.”
With the draft being on 5/20, that gives them approximately one month to get that injunction. Hopefully, that is enough time. We will know when Schultz files for it, but it will be at least 10 business days before hearing from that date. Not sure how they do it in federal court, but in state court, you have to give at least 10 days notice.
April 24th, 2008 at 9:04 am
Producer, for what it’s worth (probably not much) I believe that if Ballmer were to buy the team, you would immediately see a few key moves made in the front office:
1. a new head coach, such as Dwane Casey or Scott Brooks. This would happen within days of the new regime taking over.
2. a new CEO, such as Bob Whitsitt. He and Ballmer are close, and he has a lot of business and NBA experience.
3. if Presti wanted to stick around, and could convince Ballmer that he never actually swallowed the Bennett kool-aid, he’d be given a couple more years to finish what he started with all the draft picks.
4. a new marketing/PR staff, with an aggressive community mission to win back the fans who soured on the team in the Bennett era.
That would be a good start in the first 30 days.
April 24th, 2008 at 9:05 am
“With the draft being on 5/20, that gives them approximately one month to get that injunction.”
Draft is at the end of June.
April 24th, 2008 at 9:06 am
SOS Donations have gone towards all the paperwork, T-Shirts, etc. we have produced for 3 years. They funded about 80% of my trip to NY and less than 50% of a previous trip to NY. We have paid some nominal amounts to consultants on a legal basis for tax reporting and other issues.
No members of SOS draw a salary, are compensated for their time, and for the most part all of our trip expenses, gas to Olympia, lunches for lobbyists, etc. have all come 100% out of our own pockets.
We have a donation policy at SOS.com. The gyst of it is that if you donate over $500 we will make an effort at the end of the day to return unused funds pro-rata. If you are below that number all funds at the conclusion of SOS will be donated to the King County Boys and Girls Club.
We’ve done a ton of printing, organizing, etc. The funds for the most part simply go towards the tools to do that. Banner making supplies for the last rallys, T-Shirts, etc.
April 24th, 2008 at 9:07 am
“25% to retain this team would you still have that stance? ”
for me personally, I would reluctantly accept an expansion, but as I asked earlier, is that something that the NBA can offer, will offer - if that was the case - they could have just done that with OKC.?? Expansion: wouldn’t there have to be two new teams for balance??
but if our other option is a current team: still wondering - how do we justify that???? with everything we have gone thru, to lobby for another cities team??
April 24th, 2008 at 9:08 am
Brian, I totally respect your efforts on this and I do understand where you are coming from, but if we only have 1% chance of keeping these SUPES, then I want to try and keep these SUPES. I really do understand the other side of the fence and wanting to keep A SONICS team, but like I have said before, its more than just keeping OUR team. The whole way this has gone down the last 2 years has taken the NBA passion right out of me. Now if we keep OUR Sonics, I can see my passion coming back. What I can’t and WONT do is watch the NBA again if they can really steal our 41 year history just like that! SORRY!
April 24th, 2008 at 9:10 am
“…as we are still divided into two groups on this issue of expansion/replacement team…” [tlk]
i guess i’m part of the “all in” group, when here i thought we were all trying to Save Our Sonics. i think we need to be honest with ourselves is:
– Stern/Bennett are not going to negotiate. they may at some point claim that they will, but they only thing they’ll negotiate is how big a check Clay will write to get out of the lease. total non-starter.
– Stern does not have the power or inclination to snap his fingers and say, “Poof, you’ve got an expansion team.” The league is struggling in a number of markets as it is.
– Stern does not have the power to snap his fingers and say, “Poof, here’s the New Orleans Hornets.” As a city having it’s team ripped away from it, we are all hypocrites if we advocate taking another city’s team to replace our stolen team.
so what’s that leave us with?
1. hang tough and win the City lawsuit
2. find last piece of Arena funding
3. force Clay to sell
this really works. i think SOS and all the Sonics fans should be putting all energy towards the last piece of arena funding. some of you may remember when the guy who owns Duke’s restaurants proposed “passing the hat” when the Mariners were in danger of leaving. of creating a public ownership group like the Green Bay Packers. it was a good idea then, but the Nintendo owners stepped in and basically save the M’s out of the kindness of his heart. dude has STILL never been to a game. essentially the same with Paul Allen, he was convinced to buy the Seahawks basically as a public trust.
Ballmer has no particular need or desire to buy an NBA team other than to keep the one in his city from leaving. so what if we pass the hat for the last piece of funding? like buying tiles on a larger scale. it could work something like:
$25 million from other local business and wealthy individuals. i’m sure Gates has $5 mil in his change jar.
$50 mil from 100,000 Sonics fans/civic-minded citizens at $500 each. most of us are getting a $600 check from Uncle Sam next month. just endorse it right over to the Key Arena Public Trust and you get to actually, literally Save Your Sonics.
i know it’s a longshot, but i believe we need to think of alternative ways to get this last piece of funding. we’re arguing about things we have little control over and Ballmer may get sick of the whole ordeal as it gets uglier.
Save Our Sonics or bust. there really are no other options.
April 24th, 2008 at 9:11 am
BTW - In my 2nd to last post I am not trying to say we have no momentum, I’m just trying to say you are drinking the kool-aid if you think we have all of it. One day we feel like we’re beating them down, but the next it feels like, despite all our blows they are simply marching ahead on an inevitable path that is basically supported by the league. They have their own momentum built upon whether they can withstand the blows while they move. Thats where the gamble comes in. If they lose resolve to keep moving then we win, if they have resolve then sooner or later there is nothing we can do.
The bet right now is on how much we can throw at them VS how much they are willing to withstand. We get ideas daily on things we can throw at them but I have been stunned by their ability to withstand athe hardship on this one. They seem willing to take the heat for this move as demonstrated last friday.
Our two strongest weapons are the court case and the 2 year lame duck status. I am not certain which takes a bigger toll on the league. If they get through the court case you run the risk that they have withstood our strongest blow and everything else is gravy. Thats why I make an effort to look for resolution in advance of the court case. I think they desperately want to avoid it but I don’t know for certain what cards are in their hand.
Who flinches first?
April 24th, 2008 at 9:12 am
Brian… You mentioned that Percy will be releasing more information regarding another email today. Is that still in the works as far as you know?
April 24th, 2008 at 9:13 am
“I’m curious your stance. Where do you see our current odds and what would they have to be for you to change it?”
I guess part of this goes beyond the Sonics, Brian. You talk about all the emails you get, and thinking about your kids, and kids of future generations who will never grow up knowing the Sonics(whether expansion or THIS team). But in the grander scheme of things we are part of a brotherhood that needs to be protected. This is about a precedent. This is about the kids in Sacramento, Memphis, NO, Milwaukee, and Indiana, what happens if we don’t fight this and shine light on things? What happens to them? We have to look at this from a much broader perspective, it is about more than just the Sonics.
Having said that, I want THIS Sonic team here, and if David Stern decides to call everything off in a settlement that keeps THIS Sonic team here….that is obviously different than SETTLING for an expansion franshcise. I think we are playing word games…in this line of discussion SETTLING and SETTLEMENT mean two totally different things.
One other thing, if Schultz and Yarmuth feel that there is no need to talk settlement, then we should trust them. It means they have a great deal more in the arsenal.
April 24th, 2008 at 9:17 am
If I had a dog for 15 years and he died. His name was John. So I went out and got the same type of dog and named him John. My new dog would never be able to replace my first dog. That is why if the Sonics leave and we get a new team with the same name and color it will never be the same as the first team. KEEP THESE SONICS
April 24th, 2008 at 9:18 am
“If you viewed our chances at 75% would you take the bet. That is a 1 in 4 chance that we get left absolutely cold turkey with NOTHING.
I’m curious your stance. Where do you see our current odds and what would they have to be for you to change it?” [BR]
i think 25% is probably a pretty accurate number right now, but i honestly think as we get closer to trial that the number increases in our favor. that BOG vote number means nothing because it was in the bank the moment he applied for relocation. he wouldn’t have applied otherwise.
the thing is the strategy. if you look at it in a vacuum and say our odds are 1 in 4, and that’s it, fine, look at other options. but the odds for other options just aren’t there. what would you put the odds of another team relocating here? i’d say 1 in 25, at best. of expansion to Seattle? 1 in 100. of Shinn getting out of his lease and moving to OKC in time to save the Sonics? 1 in 200.
so, what’s the best way to increase those odds? KEEP UP THE PRESSURE. in the court of public opinion, yes, but on the Arena funding most of all from us, and in the courts from Slade and Nickels. the moment we start blinking and backpedaling, all those odds go down.
April 24th, 2008 at 9:18 am
Yeah, what’s up with the Percy article and new email?
April 24th, 2008 at 9:21 am
Thanks Brian. I’ll make a donation today. Save our Sonics (or at least our name and colors)!
April 24th, 2008 at 9:22 am
I’ve always been in the all or nothing group. I know some people think our best odds are for settling for an expansion team. I know the league is not all that keen on expansion, but if they have the power to grant one, why us? If we really hold the cards, why should we settle for an expansion team, let OK city have the expansion team.
I just feel we are getting screwed, and I’d like to hear some more insight to why we should settle for something less than this team. Was there not supposed to be some kind of SOS meeting this week? I’m willing to make a donation to SOS, would like to
know somehow what the plan for it is. Will it be discussed at this meeting?
April 24th, 2008 at 9:24 am
Me too, I don’t have a house to flip so it may not be 3 digits, but if we all gave something… To become millionaire you can either get 1 person to send you 1 million dollars or get 1 million people to send you one dollar.
April 24th, 2008 at 9:25 am
We don’t know what Stern can or cannot offer until he offers it. Thats why you leave the option open to come to the table.
April 24th, 2008 at 9:26 am
I’ve gotta agree with Brian. I would rather have an expansion team than no team at all. In the short term it may hurt to watch Kevin Durant and Jeff Green in OKC, but long term would probably show that the new Seattle Sonics will be good again at some point too. I do not however want a team from another city. It would have to be an expansion team.
I’m afraid that putting all of our eggs into Shultz’s lawsuit is not a good idea. I think 2-3 years down the road, we would all regret if we did not at least try to negotiate.
April 24th, 2008 at 9:26 am
I shudder at the thought of having to support a nu-Bobcats expansionish franchise, regardless of whether or not they brought in a GP-type of figure to be an executive/owner, (as the Cats did with Jordan).
- This is exactly the reason why the Bobcats suck (well that and their owner is cheap)…smart people running a smart franchise would dominate as an expansion team. Ask any GM if they wish they had a chance to start out completely fresh and I bet at least 50% of them would consider it.
Better yet…ask Sam Presti if he had the chance to cut every single player on his team, but one (assume it’d be KD)…would he do it.
I guarantee you he’d say yes in a milisecond.
April 24th, 2008 at 9:28 am
kba, I have been asked by freinds how I would feel if the Sonics left, and I use the analogy of losing a pet. They are not family, but they are irreplaceable. Sure I love my new one, but its not like the old one. My last cat was the most loyal pet I ever had, and she died of heart disease at a young age, totally unexpected. I got a new cat, and I love her a lot, but she hasn’t made the connection I had with the old cat. I think if we got an expansion team, I would go to games and follow them like I follow this current Sonics group, but it would not be the same. Sure I would get caught up in the new team, but every once in a while, you think about the old one and realize its just not the same. Pardon me while I go cry for a moment!
And I just donated to the fund, and when my wife gets home, i will ask her if that was OK and if we can donate a little more. So if I post later today, all is well and she was alright with it, if not, well, I guess I will quote soem military movies when I say “go on without me!”
April 24th, 2008 at 9:29 am
You’re are smart enough to know that a brand name owner in one industry does not automatically transfer to running a succesful b-ball franchise. Th owneer has to be headstrong and push his agenda through for the good of the team. Every other succsful franchise has done this; Spurs, Mavs, Lakers, Jazz and on and on…
- This so not a great concusion to make that I don’t know where to start…does that mean I am to assume that Dolan is not a “head-strong owner”?? What about Donald Sterling??
April 24th, 2008 at 9:29 am
“Better yet…ask Sam Presti if he had the chance to cut every single player on his team, but one (assume it’d be KD)…would he do it.”
I think the deals he’s cut in the last year would tell you that he’d say yes.;)
April 24th, 2008 at 9:31 am
Haha. Beasely could be a 20-10 guy, sure. But it seems that he could also be a booked-into-the-county-jail-for-graffiti-ing guy just as easily…
- Man this is silly….I would please like everyone who thinks that Beaseley is this horrible person to please go research Kevin Love and his ordeals while playing in HS. I sure hope this isn’t another one of those Nick Collison/Chris Wilcox debates…
April 24th, 2008 at 9:32 am
Myk - make no mistake, K-Love and his dad are douchebags as well.
April 24th, 2008 at 9:33 am
Just a quick thought. How does everybody think the Charlotte fans feel right now? Do you think they are totally supportive of the Bobcats and don’t really care they lost there team so many years ago, or do you think they are sick to there stomaches watching the New Orleans Hornets(charlotte hornets) in the playoffs looking like true contenders
- Something tells me all those Charlotte fans will be back once the team starts winning…just like 95% of the fans in Seattle would be back once the expansion Sonics were a top-level team again.
April 24th, 2008 at 9:35 am
Brian, re your questions:
It seems like a pretty safe bet that the City will prevail in the lease lawsuit and the team will be here to fulfill the remaining 2 years of the lease. So let’s say those odds are 90/10 in favor of the team staying for 2 more years.
Schultz’s lawsuit is a complete unknown quantity - there’s no precedent we can point to, there’s no way to know how much traction it gets early, or how much staying power it has. All we really know is that Yarmuth is one of the best and brightest, and he and Schultz probably wouldn’t have gone down this road at if they thought the only result was going to be a huge legal bill for Howard. It’s likely more about creating leverage with which to negotiate, rather than seeing it all the way through to an actual victory at the end. The odds? Maybe 75/25 against.
Having said that, here’s what goes through my mind every time I hear people talking about a lease buyout and an expansion or replacement team later on: if you say let this Sonics team walk today in exchange for a settlement package, it seems to me like you’re downplaying or underestimating a couple of factors which I believe could be huge down the road -
1) if the NBA leaves Seattle in this fashion, by allowing Bennett to essentially steal our team of 40+ years, there would be fan burnout and a significant emotional backlash toward the NBA. You seem to assume that if Key Arena goes dark for 3-5 years, then gets a new team that all of a sudden fans will just come running back simply for the “love of the game.” I think that’s highly unlikely at best. This isn’t about “Saving the NBA” - it’s about Saving Our Sonics.
Last time I checked your organization was called Save Our Sonics - not Save Our NBA. Granted, I wasn’t in the room when you started all this, but I’d hazard to guess your motivation had more to do with the history and tradition and emotional ties to our Sonics team and less to do with the Lakers, Celtics, and the rest. I could be wrong…
The other factor is, you apparently assume that if the NBA leaves now, there will be some kind of organized movement to get a new arena and a new team. Bean and Brown aside, I’d say it’s far more likely that the opposite happens - that because of the overall regional burnout and lingering resentment of how this deal went down, that people woul djust move on with their lives, and find other things to do. Some fans might turn to the Huskies, others to the Blazers, whatever - but I’ve lived here all my life, and I just don’t see a groundswell developing to “bring the bastards back!” Not exactly a rallying cry…and I have to say I’d be on the opposite side myself.
First and foremost, I’m a Sonics fan - not an NBA fan. I want to watch my team, our team, this team. Take it away - especially like this - and I’m done. Talk to me in 3-5 years and I’ll be done with the NBA. If there actually is someone who is such a huge NBA fan that they’re willing to drink the poison now and then try to get all excited over a new team later, well, good for them.
But it ain’t me, babe.
April 24th, 2008 at 9:36 am
I’m curious your stance. Where do you see our current odds and what would they have to be for you to change it?
I would say we have a 50-50 chance but there is only a 10% chance of that!
Brian Im sticking with the all or nothing crowd regardless of what those scumbags offer! This is our team and we should do everything in our power to keep them, and take an expansion team as an absolute last resort! They lied, cheated, and tried to steal this team from all of us Sonics fans, and if we do ultimately lose them then i want nothing to do with the NBA! In doing so all of the owners except Cuban and Allen are condoning this behavior, and that is way too much for me!
I have young kids, and i will do the same as i do now when i show them Kemp and GP clips relive the old days thru my stories, and hope 1 day they follow a team as much as i did with the SEATTLE SONICS!
April 24th, 2008 at 9:38 am
We don’t know what Stern can or cannot offer until he offers it. Thats why you leave the option open to come to the table.
- Ya…this is what I don’t get. People are saying that we shouldn’t negotiate because they can’t do this or that…or they’ll lie about it.
Isn’t a basic fact of the “lets negotiate” argument that these things would happen…and if not then they wouldn’t accept a settelment??
People act like if they got Stern and Bennett in a room Gorton would suddenly become retarded and take a horrible deal that would only help the NBA. Seems like an odd stance to have.
April 24th, 2008 at 9:39 am
“I’m afraid that putting all of our eggs into Shultz’s lawsuit is not a good idea. I think 2-3 years down the road, we would all regret if we did not at least try to negotiate.” [SLC]
it’s not putting all our eggs into Schultz’s lawsuit at all. that is just a part of the puzzle that may help down the road. it’s finding the Arena funding, and the City not blinking in the lease-enforcement lawsuit. if Slade/K&L Gates takes the Sonics to trial during the playoffs, and the City wins, then Schultz’s lawsuit is the Sword of Damocles over their heads. get the arena funding done even before the lawsuit, and if the City wins, then it is OVER. Bennett will NOT be able to hang out for 2 years in Seattle.
April 24th, 2008 at 9:40 am
If I had a dog for 15 years and he died. His name was John. So I went out and got the same type of dog and named him John. My new dog would never be able to replace my first dog. That is why if the Sonics leave and we get a new team with the same name and color it will never be the same as the first team. KEEP THESE SONICS
- What if every year you had 15 dogs and each year some dogs went and other dogs stayed. Finally, after year 15 you really only had one dog you cared about (and that is all based on the fact he “could’ be a good dog). Would you really just give up owning dogs in the future because you had to give that one dog away?
April 24th, 2008 at 9:40 am
Optmistically, I think we have a 35% shot right now.
It would take a 0% chance to make me quit on this particular Sonics team.
Any kind of deal of some sort is fine with me, as long as we have this team. If THIS team is gone, there is no way I can watch the NBA knowing what they did to us, knowing what they allowed Bennett to do, knowing how Bennett did it, and knowing he got away with it.
So yeh.
April 24th, 2008 at 9:43 am
Schultz’s lawsuit is a complete unknown quantity - there’s no precedent we can point to, there’s no way to know how much traction it gets early, or how much staying power it has. All we really know is that Yarmuth is one of the best and brightest, and he and Schultz probably wouldn’t have gone down this road at if they thought the only result was going to be a huge legal bill for Howard. It’s likely more about creating leverage with which to negotiate, rather than seeing it all the way through to an actual victory at the end. The odds? Maybe 75/25 against.
- Ummm…the fact that there ISN’T precedent is actually one of the biggest issues with the case. On top of that, when people say there isn’t precedent it doesn’t mean that a similar case like this has never went to court…it just means the guy has never won…again not a good thing.
Basically, what I read from all the legal experts is that by technicality of the law there is a decent chance that Schultz should win…however, they are very skeptical that they’d actually take a $350million dollar business away from someone in that situation…
April 24th, 2008 at 9:44 am
I think the deals he’s cut in the last year would tell you that he’d say yes.
- Very good point…
April 24th, 2008 at 9:45 am
I am in the keep THIS team crowd.
And remember, for that to be achieved, we ARE giving something to the NBA, a new arena.
That’s something the league has been after for some time, so let’s remember that we ARE contributing to a compromise, even when we keep THESE Sonics.
April 24th, 2008 at 9:46 am
the “let’s negotiate” crowd is panicking. you see the BOG vote and think it’s over. if the Board vote is your reason to want to negotiate, well, you’ve got no leverage. they’ll see you’re panicking. the “let’s negotiate” moment comes when they see you are willing to go all the way to trial. when they want to offer something, of course we’ll listen. they’re not offering anything except a view of their ass walking out the door. you’ve lost when you start yelling after them at that point. WE HAVE A LEASE THROUGH 2010. very smart people think that lease is enforceable. let them offer something when they see we mean to enforce it, not just a negotiating ploy. don’t go begging to the people that have been kicking sand in our faces all this time.
April 24th, 2008 at 9:48 am
For the record SOS is going to work on crafting an “official” answer to the “replacement team” debate. My personal position right now involves “continuous presense”. I don’t like the Charlotte option because the 3 years clearly took a toll on the fans and changed the product. It was also pointed out to me that during those three years Charlotte saw the emergence of the Carolina Panthers and also an NHL team so it is a bit hard to judge how they would have been recieved had the NBA remained the premier game in town.
I don’t know how Stern could deliver on continual presense. At this point I know they don’t want to expand but I hope to make it into a “lesser of two evils situation.” If they go towards expansion I hope to make it an “easier to expand to Oklahoma City” situation. If they want to start with talking about expanding here in 2 years I hold the conversation. I’m not saying I take the deal, but I sit down at the table. If they came today and said “Brian here’s the thing. Tell the city that if they agree to settle the case and let Clay leave we will guarantee you an expansion franchise in the next season. This franchise will be owned by Steve Ballmer and be called the Sonics with all the history, etc. transfered over to it. Additionally we will give the new Sonics equal draft lottery odds to the current Sonics so you lose nothing on your pick and you will have an expansion draft scenario in which the current Sonics can only protect 4 teams off their roster so you are likely to get a couple of players back. Take this deal and the issue is resolved tomorrow.”
I have to think that would be pretty appealing. From the sounds of it many people think I would be a quitter.
You guys have to understand that if the league did that it would be a collosal victory on our part. They tried to take the NBA and failed. They told us they couldn’t expand and we forced them to do so. They told us we wouldn’t have the Sonics and we have the Sonics. I would feel completely comfortable calling it a victory on our end, especially when we see KD bold OKC in 3 years because of the crap he’s had to endure.
If Clay wanted to roll into OKC and call it a huge win on his end becuase he got a team then I don’t care. I’ll never see the man again, likely never utter his name. I don’t care.
April 24th, 2008 at 9:49 am
I just don’t think its in me to accept an expansion… it wouldn’t feel like a saved Sonics. I’ll admit to being a habitual risk taker, and that it has more often than not worked out in my favor, but expansion would feel like a loss. Additionally, my interest in a nu-Sonics would probably be hard pressed to materialize, especially when a more-developed KD blew into town and cut out our rejects’ hearts, jumper after jumper…
I’d take the 25% odds, but thankfully we aren’t at that point yet. We’re at a “we have 2 pretty good looking suits going on” point.
SAVE THESE KD-LED SONICS!!!
April 24th, 2008 at 9:49 am
Finally, since most people don’t like me here I feel like I can say this without making others much more mad at me then they already are…
For all of you that claim the NBA is dead to them if THIS Sonics team leaves I call BULLSHIT…sure you might not go to as many games…and you might try and avoid the team.
However, if in five years Ricky Rubio PG extraordinaire is leading the Seattle Sonics to the NBA Finals…I will go on record and say 90% of you guys will all be watching the game.
Will you be a little more jaded? Yes
Will you be a little less likely to follow a team that is 40-42? Yes
Will you be less likely to buy team gear and other things? Yes
But in the end…we’ll all come back (I’ve claimed that I won’t follow the NBA in the past as well)…we might not be 100% invested…but we will be 80% or 90% invested.
To be honest, I don’t think we will be any more or less invested then if Schultz wins the lawsuit and the team stays here. It is quite obvious the NBA has left a sour taste in all our mouths…no matter what…this market will never be the same. No matter which Sonics team is here in 5 years.
April 24th, 2008 at 9:49 am
“Better yet…ask Sam Presti if he had the chance to cut every single player on his team, but one (assume it’d be KD)…would he do it.
I guarantee you he’d say yes in a milisecond. ” -MYK
I’m not sure what you mean there Myk. Do you think the team would be better off with all that cap money to build exclusively through free agency and the draft?
I think he’d at least want to keep Green, probably Collison, and maybe EW as a backup PG.
April 24th, 2008 at 9:49 am
Courtsense…. Your post at 10:38 last night is excellent and your analogy to the M’s & Seahawks was fun to read. Thanks!
April 24th, 2008 at 9:51 am
the “let’s negotiate” crowd is panicking.
- The “let’s negotiate” crowd is no more panicking then the “this team or nothing” crowd is acting irrationally emotional. It is understandable to be emotional…but the idea that it doesn’t even make sense to negotiate is just cutting off your nose to spite your face.
April 24th, 2008 at 9:52 am
Courtsense…. Your post at 10:38 last night is excellent and your analogy to the M’s & Seahawks was fun to read. Thanks!
- Damn…i was really hoping everyone missed the clear strawman argument made in that post.
April 24th, 2008 at 9:54 am
I think he’d at least want to keep Green, probably Collison, and maybe EW as a backup PG.
- Green would be his second choice…but I simply guarantee you that the conversation would be:
NBA Official: “well Sam…if you want to keep Green then we can’t let you lose all the other salaries”
Sam: “I don’t want to lose him…but I will take that deal”
April 24th, 2008 at 9:55 am
The NBA is bloated. 30 team is too many. For the love of God the NBA does not need more. 24 would be a nice amount of teams.
How about some contraction?
Memphis? Charlotte? Milwaukee? Minnesota? Orlando? New Orleans? All of these teams should go.
Just say no to expansion!
April 24th, 2008 at 9:55 am
Let me turn Brian’s question around:
If this current situation (Stern and Bennett stealing our team) isn’t the one where you say “enough already” and “we’re not taking anymore BS from the NBA” then what would it take for you to say that?
How bad does it have to be, how ugly does it have to get, how far are you willing to be pushed for the “privilege” of having an NBA team - this team, an expansion team, a replacement team, whatever - in Seattle? Where do you draw the line? Would you wait 3 years for the league to come back? 5 years? How much should we spend on a new arena? $300 million? $500 million? A billion? How long should we wait for an expansion team to get competitive, so we can see a playoff game in Seattle - 10 years from now? More? Which team should we steal from another city and its fans? Memphis? Charlotte? New Orleans? Where does the BS stop? Is there no limit to what we’ll take from the NBA?
I’m no psychologist, but if you honestly answer those questions perhaps you’ll gain some meanigful insight into your feelings about the NBA and what it means to be a Sonics fan.
April 24th, 2008 at 9:58 am
Steve P….. On your post at 11:18 last night…
I think you are right that we have serious legal leverage right now. It seems to me that the big question is… Regardless of how “Tough” Clay & Stern are talking now…
“Would they really be willing to go through 2 years of a Sonics “Lame-duck” type of team - Money & PR loses and risks of legal liability etc. etc.”
Everyone is speculating to some degree on this. You say - “NO” and I think you are right. The only way we find out is to push them to the wall and to get our act together in Washington with an arena deal. I think some of the fan anxiety comes from some statements by different people that an expansion team or transfer team would be acceptable. I understand this can all be part of the negotiations and nothing is committed to etc. - but it is part of the anxiety and discussion as well. Some folks would ultimately be OK with that and some simply would be willing to risk having no NBA in Seattle if it meant giving it our best shot to keep our current team. Some would be fine with expansion/transfer teams - others simply want this Sonics team or no NBA.
Love what you & BR & SOS have been doing - keep it up.
April 24th, 2008 at 9:58 am
How bad does it have to be, how ugly does it have to get, how far are you willing to be pushed for the “privilege” of having an NBA team - this team, an expansion team, a replacement team, whatever - in Seattle? Where do you draw the line? Would you wait 3 years for the league to come back? 5 years? How much should we spend on a new arena? $300 million? $500 million? A billion? How long should we wait for an expansion team to get competitive, so we can see a playoff game in Seattle - 10 years from now? More? Which team should we steal from another city and its fans? Memphis? Charlotte? New Orleans? Where does the BS stop? Is there no limit to what we’ll take from the NBA?
- If you believe all this (which in some ways is understandable)…then why are you fighting for the Sonics to stay in Seattle??
This is what I mean when I say that the Seattle market will never be truly the same again. We have seen the seedy underside of the NBA machine. Our naivety has been ruined permanently. I think an expansion team or the current Sonics team will be effected just as much by this whole process.
April 24th, 2008 at 9:58 am
I think we need to stick to
our guns on not settling. I’m not saying that we need to refuse discussion with the NBA, but if that discussion leads to an expansion team so be it. Just don’t count me in as a fan. I just firmly believe if the NBA has the power to grant an expansion team, that it should be OK city that has to wait. They’ve waited this long, they can wait a couple more years. Why should
we wait?
April 24th, 2008 at 9:59 am
Lemon - I think the fact that Clay Bennett was already deposed shows that the city is willing to go to trial.
I don’t take anyone who says they are willing to negotiate now as meaning they are willing to bend over and take it. If the right deal comes along fine but you won’t find out anything unless you talk. Everyone’s ultimate goal is to keep this team but do you think one day Stern and Bennett are just going to pick up the phone and say we give up and you win? I don’t … there is going to be a give and take. To claim through these lawsuits we are in a “can’t lose” position is overstating the cases, IMO. The lease lawsuit is on really firm ground, no one should believe the Schultz case is a slam dunk.
April 24th, 2008 at 9:59 am
Courtsense at 9:35
I agree with you 100%. ” You are a deep and compassionate thinker.”
I might add that if the NBA prevails then part of the cost to the league ought to be that they lose the Seattle market for some extended period of time. I would support and NFL team in this market before I would give my love to another NBA franchise. A multi year cooling off period would be essential and the cost of doing business to Stern and the NBA. If and when the NBA does try to come back to town they need to be prepared to pay 100% of the cost of their building.
April 24th, 2008 at 10:02 am
I should add to my post - get an arena deal in place and then we can put a stake in the ground and not budge - as it stands now that is a huge weakness and can’t be ignored.
April 24th, 2008 at 10:04 am
“when people say there isn’t precedent it doesn’t mean that a similar case like this has never went to court…”
I thought the lack of a precedent DID mean that case like this one had never before gone to court.
“it just means the guy has never won…again not a good thing.”
I think if a case went to court, and the guy lost, it WOULD set a precedent that the judge must use to rule against the plaintiff.
April 24th, 2008 at 10:05 am
“If and when the NBA does try to come back to town they need to be prepared to pay 100% of the cost of their building.”
Currently, many of the arenas are actually owned by cities/counties, such as the Key. So, it is not actually the NBA’s building.
April 24th, 2008 at 10:06 am
My uninformed guess is that these Sonics have a 40% chance of staying in Seattle. If folks are willing to accept an expansion team in Seattle within the next 5 years, I honestly hope it works and turns into an enjoyable team. But I would not follow an expansion team, nor would I follow any other NBA team if the Sonics left.
April 24th, 2008 at 10:07 am
Anyone else see a tie to Gorton’s “hey, we’ll talk” comments and the deposition of Bennett shortly thereafter? Looking back, it almost seems like that was a message to David Stern…”Do you really want to do this?”
April 24th, 2008 at 10:09 am
Brett you are so right! The sooner we get this funding done, the better off we are. If we had the lawsuits and the funding the odds would go up in our favor.
April 24th, 2008 at 10:09 am
“If you believe all this (which in some ways is understandable)…then why are you fighting for the Sonics to stay in Seattle??”
Joshu@ stated in a post earlier:
“This is about the kids in Sacramento, Memphis, NO, Milwaukee, and Indiana, what happens if we don’t fight this and shine light on things? What happens to them? We have to look at this from a much broader perspective, it is about more than just the Sonics.”
Idealistic, but one reason. when does it end.
April 24th, 2008 at 10:09 am
IMO, the legal precedent this is setting and the impact it may have on the NBA and sports league operations is more important than keeping the Sonics. The Sonics franchise has been damaged even if they stay. The fan interest will be down until a championship season occurs again. People don’t forget and vote with their wallets. Therefore, the only replacement team that would work for me would be a playoff caliber team like the Hornets.
April 24th, 2008 at 10:12 am
Sorry Brian , can’t do it. Wont support expansion. And Myk, you are wrong. Some fans will come back, but not 90%. You guys are missing the point of how this is happening to us.I know you all know whats going on.I just dont know how you can accept it. If we take another team, then we are accepting what Stern wants us to do. You can call BULLSHIT all you want Myk, but the NBA will be dead to me. PERIOD! I call BULLSHIT on the NBA and CLAY BOY!
April 24th, 2008 at 10:13 am
SAVE THESE KD-LED SONICS!
My last post wouldn’t go through, and I’m not typing that novel again (haha).
April 24th, 2008 at 10:13 am
“Anyone else see a tie to Gorton’s “hey, we’ll talk” comments and the deposition of Bennett shortly thereafter? Looking back, it almost seems like that was a message to David Stern…”Do you really want to do this?”
glad while we bitch and moan and can’t come to any conclusion… we have people like slade on the front line. coming from him, every action is calculated.
April 24th, 2008 at 10:13 am
I don’t think the NBA ever wants a Judge to decide the city’s case.
I’m not saying that they will avoid the trial, but it could be bad for them if a court rules that Specific Performance clauses prevent NBA teams from simply paying off a lease and moving. That will impact the whole league’s ability to do exactly what they are doing right here.
April 24th, 2008 at 10:13 am
Ghost - I think your post is right on. With all the talk of PR stunts, etc. this is one that falls under that banner. Gorton has been through this on multiple occasions. I don’t think he is going to decide to cave now but there is no harm in inviting them to the table to talk. He does know, however, with all the leverage we have it’s not enough without an arena deal. Get that done now and it’s game, set, match.
April 24th, 2008 at 10:15 am
Myk, I think everyone has to draw those lines for themselves.
Part of what’s happened here is that a lot of us Sonics fans have become like battered wives - every time Stern raises his voice or worse, his hand, we think he’s gonna kill us and we cower.
I’m done cowering. If Stern’s willing to back off, say it was all a big misunderstanding - and then get his ass out of this house - I’ll accept his apology, get to work on an arena, and go cheer for my Sonics.
On the other hand, if Stern continues to raise his voice - or his hand - then I’m gonna find a baseball bat, get a homerun grip, and start swinging like Joaquin Phoenix in that movie “Signs.”
April 24th, 2008 at 10:20 am
IMO, the legal precedent this is setting and the impact it may have on the NBA and sports league operations is more important than keeping the Sonics. The Sonics franchise has been damaged even if they stay. The fan interest will be down until a championship season occurs again. People don’t forget and vote with their wallets. Therefore, the only replacement team that would work for me would be a playoff caliber team like the Hornets.
- Im in full agreement with this statement at least until the last sentence. While I understand why it is important to negotiate. I strongly feel this could be a historic case. However, I don’t want to go forward cause I think it is this team or no team…it is just to see how this would change the world of sports forever.
Sorry Brian , can’t do it. Wont support expansion. And Myk, you are wrong. Some fans will come back, but not 90%. You guys are missing the point of how this is happening to us.I know you all know whats going on.I just dont know how you can accept it. If we take another team, then we are accepting what Stern wants us to do. You can call BULLSHIT all you want Myk, but the NBA will be dead to me. PERIOD! I call BULLSHIT on the NBA and CLAY BOY!
- Yup…………how are all those people who swore of Major League Baseball because of the strike doing?? Like I said a small amount of extremely stubborn people will not support the team. But, the vast majority will break down…this has been proven on waaaay too many occassions to be argued with.
April 24th, 2008 at 10:21 am
And for people so caught up on precedent, legal or otherwise… has there ever been a more vocal movement against an NBA franchise relocating that the SOS movement? No. We are blazing the trail (no pun intended) here, and Howard may just end up setting a new legal precedent with his fight.
“To give anything less than your best is to sacrifice the Gift.”
-Steve Prefontaine
April 24th, 2008 at 10:23 am
“On the other hand, if Stern continues to raise his voice - or his hand - then I’m gonna find a baseball bat, get a homerun grip, and start swinging like Joaquin Phoenix in that movie “Signs.”
Word. I’m in total agreeance, courtsense.
April 24th, 2008 at 10:25 am
driving to my doctor’s appointment, I wass wondering how we could raise money for SOS and I struck on the idea of a silent auction like they do at the Key. I am sure with as many Sonics fans as we have we could come up with a good collection of items from our own homes. maybe get somed players to donate stuff, maybe Big Lo would offer up some of his duplicate autographed items? I for one have an extra set of bobbleheads from the last 10 years, including a Gary Payton talking bobblehead that I would be willing to contribute.
another idea I had is a PBS type plede drive, with items purchased at set dollar amounts. perhaps a 10 dollar “i’m saving the Sonics”, a 50 dollar tshirt saying the same, and so on. I would be willing to help run this if anyone else wants to help. I believe in this cause and would like the chance to be more involved than I have been. any suggestions or comments?
April 24th, 2008 at 10:29 am
“glad while we bitch and moan and can’t come to any conclusion… we have people like slade on the front line. coming from him, every action is calculated.”
What’s awesome is while you bitch and moan, its at people who are thinking just like Slade and you keep telling them they’re wrong.
April 24th, 2008 at 10:29 am
BR at 9:11 says….
“If they lose resolve to keep moving then we win, if they have resolve then sooner or later there is nothing we can do.
The bet right now is on how much we can throw at them VS how much they are willing to withstand. We get ideas daily on things we can throw at them but I have been stunned by their ability to withstand athe hardship on this one. They seem willing to take the heat for this move as demonstrated last friday.”
I think this gets at the heart of much of what is going on - a test of the will and trying to discern/guess how much perseverance each side has. What would the “quiting point” be for Stern/NBA? For Seattle?
I would add 1 point and ask a question:
Point: Likely the only way to find out if Stern/Clay have a breaking point is to force them to that point. This does not mean we don’t of course leave the discussion/negotiation door open. Of course you do - but we simply need to use whatever leverage we have to push them. Stern was right - this is a “scortched earth” approach - which is exactly what he & Clay have been doing too.
Question:How would Stern’s resolve change if we had our arena act together? To me, this is the huge variable. If we fixed this would Stern relent? Would it give him a chance to come out a “winner” in the eyes of NBA owners? (Damm, David did it again - he forced a city to find a way to get a new arena etc.”)
I think if we had our arena act together there is an excellent chance Stern will fold. Without an arena - maybe Stern will take “2 years of lame-duck in Seattle Hell”. Without an arena solution in seattle maybe Stern will go through and risk anything & everything?
I don’t know. But we have to keep pushing to find out.
April 24th, 2008 at 10:31 am
Brian/SOS, could you possibly keep us posted on how much SOS has raised today? I think it motivates others to donate if they see that you have some positive momentum going.
April 24th, 2008 at 10:33 am
O.K. Myk, you got me. I’m one of the small amount of extremely stubborn people.And since you want to throw MLB into the argument. I want THIS SONICS TEAM WAY MORE THAN I WANT THE MARINERS and all the STEROID FREAKS! I guess I just never came around after the strike, oh well. SAVE THESE SONICS!
April 24th, 2008 at 10:33 am
I’m with Brian. You don’t cut off your nose to spite your face. You go about this thing with a level head and play the cards you are dealt. Overplaying your hand, just cuz you are mad, doesn’t do anybody any good. As long as we feel we have favorable odds, we go with them. But as I’ve said a bunch of times here, coming out of this thing with an expansion or relocated team called the Seattle Supersonics, while not ideal, is much more of a win than coming out with nothing.
And for those who say, “I don’t want to steal somebody else’s team and put their fans through what we are going through.” I agree. To an extent. If we were to hijack the Milwaukee Bucks or Indiana Pacers, I would want nothing to do with it. But if it were the Grizzlies or Hornets, two towns who both recently stole teams and who haven’t been able to support them properly, so freaking what? I feel a tad bit for NO, because of Katrina. But the sad facts are that they weren’t supporting the Hornets before. And Memphis, they IMO do not deserve a team one bit. Get that team out of there ASAP. And if it means resurrecting them as the new Seattle Supersonics, so be it. That isn’t my first goal. But if it’s that instead of jack squat and the Sonics not existing, sorry “all or nothing” people, I’m with Brian.
April 24th, 2008 at 10:36 am
I am sorry but NO to expansion. You get the expansion draft in which you can pick up d-league players that sit on the bench for other teams..oh and a lottery pick..big deal. We saw what 2 lottery picks alone with a bunch of scrubs did this year. No Deal. Oklahoma can have an expansion or the Hornets..period. I have to agree with alot of posters that if the NBA is gone for 2 or 3 years or we are building a new team from scratch with no name recognition or hype, casual fans will not support the team. I would probably not be a season ticket holder if I would go at all.
April 24th, 2008 at 10:37 am
I’m with Brian too. As much as I want to see Stern and Bennett bleed (literally), my main objective is to be able to take my kids to Sonics games in twenty years and tell them stories about that #20 guy whose jersey is hanging in the rafters. However, I can also sympathize with the “all or nothing” crowd (I was in that camp myself as recently as a couple days ago), as you have a legitimate, principled stance.
April 24th, 2008 at 10:38 am
And I have to agree with Brian’s kool aid comments. Some here have a way skewed view of things. When we get favorable developments like Clay’s dunderheaded emails, that’s awesome. But many here act like they cement a win for us. That couldn’t be further from the truth. We all have sat and watched Clay and his Okies make moronic move after moronic move for the past two years. How many times more do we need to see him make a huge mess for himself and run away from it scott free before we understand that he isn’t playing a fair game here? If there was justice and things like these emails guaranteed us a win, don’t you think we would have gotten rid of this fool ages ago?
April 24th, 2008 at 10:40 am
For the “All or nothing” militants. Go talk to a Cleveland Browns fan for a second. Ask them if they could go back in time, if they would give up their expansion Browns team for a couple more fights with Art Modell and the NFL? Now that it’s been a few years and they have their beloved Browns, I don’t think they would give that back.
April 24th, 2008 at 10:41 am
I’ve been following this story in the papers, and to some extent on this site, although I can’t read every single post here, and I have some questions that maybe someone here could answer. I am not a lawyer, so this will be strictly in layman’s terms.
I get the impression that Schultz’s suit asks that the Sonics be placed in some sort of “constructive trust” that some third party appointed by the court will operate for an undetermined amount of time. One thing everyone seems to agree on is that the Sonics have been losing money (even Schultz claimed that while he owned them). So, if Bennett no longer owns the team, and Schultz no longer owns the team, but the team is in a trust, then who is going to pay the operating costs to run the team? Will Bennett be forced to pay the losses even though he is prohibited from operating the team, and prohibited from selling the team? Could this go on indefinitely?
So, the Sonics could be in this sort of limbo of a “constructive trust” for years, losing money every year, and Bennett would be forced to pay those losses? Would that be legal? Seems pretty strange to me.
Can anyone shed any light on this?
If the team were making money, there would be no problem — the profits could just be held in the trust until the team was sold. But the Sonics can not operate without someone giving the team $20 million to $30 million each year to meet the expenses. Can Bennett actually be forced to pay that kind of money when he has no control over the business?
April 24th, 2008 at 10:42 am
Here’s the thing I think the “all or nothing” people aren’t getting. Just because you say you are willing to negotiate, doesn’t mean that you are giving up the fight to keep this current team. No, it just means that if we get to a point where it becomes brutally honest that our chances aren’t too great, we change the game plan. But not until that point.
April 24th, 2008 at 10:43 am
“coming out of this thing with an expansion or relocated team called the Seattle Supersonics, while not ideal, is much more of a win than coming out with nothing.”
so how much is enough for the negotiation folks. No matter what the nba does to you as a fan, you still go back??? where is the line for you??
April 24th, 2008 at 10:43 am
Joshu@ stated in a post earlier:
“This is about the kids in Sacramento, Memphis, NO, Milwaukee, and Indiana, what happens if we don’t fight this and shine light on things? What happens to them? We have to look at this from a much broader perspective, it is about more than just the Sonics.”
Idealistic, but one reason. when does it end.?”
THe founding of our country was idealistic, until someone decided to fight for it regardless the cost. At which point idealism became reality. Of course this isn’t going to be easy, of course we are going to have tremendous uphill battles to fight…the question…is it worth it?
I only brought that statement up because Brian started talking about thinking about the Seattle fans of future generations and not just ourselves….well, I think it runs a little deeper than that. Which is why I made the statement about the kids of other smaller markets that will suffer as a result of this precedent Stern is trying to set.
We have a chance to do what NO OTHER FANBASE in the HISTORY of professional sports has EVER done. Fans from NY have never done it, fans from Boston have never done it, fans from LA have never done it. Hold fast folks. Hold fast.
April 24th, 2008 at 10:45 am
I would find it substantially easier to support the Portland Trailblazers than a new Sonics team. I don’t buy Bill Simmons’ “suck it up and stay loyal to the rivalry” argument.
B-Roy, Martel Webster, and Paul Allen - Portland’s finest basketball Seattlites.
SAVE THESE KD-LED SONICS!!!
April 24th, 2008 at 10:49 am
“so how much is enough for the negotiation folks. No matter what the nba does to you as a fan, you still go back??? where is the line for you??”
To the level I was 4 years ago as an NBA fan I’ll never go back to that no matter what now.
I don’t set any line until I know what the outcome is and until that point I don’t think anyone can tell you what thier ‘line in the sand is’ unless its an irrational line.
April 24th, 2008 at 10:49 am
“…it just means that if we get to a point where it becomes brutally honest that our chances aren’t too great, we change the game plan. But not until that point.”
Put that way, it sounds like falling back on plans b or c will be “accepting” whatever option King David decides to bless us with becomes the game plan…
April 24th, 2008 at 10:49 am
Brian R. - On the possible outcome you describe as a victory in your 9:48 post:
If it got that close and the NBA made that offer I would still say:
“Thanks for the progress - thanks for the offer - thanks for the discussion. But > No deal. If you are willing to do an expansion in Seattle - do it in OKC. We want THIS team to stay NOW”.
That would likely be the time when in the negotiations the line in the sand is permanently drawn. So be it - see what they do. At that point it is the NBA’s call - And if they choose to move I’d still rather have that scenario - than an expansion Sonics team even as outlined above.
I respect people who might view this differently - but this is where I’m at. Many excellent posts above outline reasons I also share for this postion.
April 24th, 2008 at 10:51 am
I agree with Brian about this. Is our goal here to save the Durant Sonics or else stick it to the league. Or is our goal to save Sonics basketball in Seattle forever?
Remember, as much as we all despise Clay and Stern in all this, our politicians haven’t given them a single thing to work with.
All I know is that in 5 years I would rather be watching Sonics basketball than be bored out of my mind on a February evening and only have the glory of sticking it to the NBA 3 years ago to entertain me.
I agree with you all, Seattle deserves this team more than ever right after having endured these terrible seasons, but at the end of the day I just want Sonics basketball.
April 24th, 2008 at 10:55 am
One thing that bothers me is everyone thinking that we are all of the sudden “emotional” because we say go all the way. I have actually been pretty level about all of this. I am not irrational because I want to see this thing through, I may very well have a steel resolve, but that doesn’t mean that I am being “militant”.
Also, for all those who think we are basing our decision on “e-mail” content….get real. I am looking at the progressive content of the email and the reality that there is most likely a great deal in the arsenal. If anything most of you “settlers” don’t get that. Not to mention the fact that Schultz/Yarmuth are not going to settle. With the progressive content, Yarmuth…the best in the biz locking in, Slade being very quiet about things, as well as the constant stream of rhetoric and propaganda from the Stern/Bennett camp…I feel some more good things are coming, and I have always been right.
But you are soooo right Brian, Myk….that whole thought process is just irrational, “militant” thinking…gimme a break.
April 24th, 2008 at 11:03 am
“.that whole thought process is just irrational, “militant” thinking…gimme a break.”
I think those who are willing to save basketball at all costs are the irrational ones. The thought of no nba here is to scary for you.
Look at what has been done here, basically just a corporation kicking its customers to the curb, and we want more. Its like a wife who has been abused, but continues to go back because she is emotionally involved. enough is enough.
April 24th, 2008 at 11:03 am
Has there ever been a more vocal movement against an NBA franchise relocating that the SOS movement? No. We are blazing the trail (no pun intended) here, and Howard may just end up setting a new legal precedent with his fight.
- Somewhat OT…but I truly believe that one of the biggest reasons for this appearance of more support is due to the increase in Blogs and the Internet. I can only imagine how difficult it was for the Save our Seahawks group back in the 90s with basically zero way to centrally communicate with a large group of people.
Here’s the thing I think the “all or nothing” people aren’t getting. Just because you say you are willing to negotiate, doesn’t mean that you are giving up the fight to keep this current team. No, it just means that if we get to a point where it becomes brutally honest that our chances aren’t too great, we change the game plan. But not until that point.
- Ding Ding Ding…
April 24th, 2008 at 11:04 am
Good point JJ. I never said that negoitiating was a bad thing. I just dont understand that if it came to the NBA offering us an expansion team if we drop the lawsuits, then explain to me why we get a new expansion team and Clay gets our 41 years. BS. There would have to be a way for Stern to work that out and if not, then we are back to the CROOKED NBA. The point is the NBA DOES NOT want to expand. If Stern can promise an expansion team, then we can start the negotiations about OUR team staying and CLAY BOY getting the expansion. He has already said in emails that he would just sell the team if he had to and would look good for another team going to OKIE.(memphis) Why wouldn’t the fans from Okl. want a new team that they could always say is theres instead of the old Sonics team.
April 24th, 2008 at 11:04 am
The publisher of the UW Daily forwarded me this article she received from a friend at the OU school newspaper. The ignorance down there is appalling!!
http://hub.ou.edu/articles/article.php?item_id=2009642276&hub=a379c7748af0e634e157f00950173d40
April 24th, 2008 at 11:06 am
And MYK… I hear what you are saying about fans returning etc. > Many would if expansion came ot Seattle. But for myself, I’d be done with the NBA. And I’d stikc with that sentiment.
Growing up and into my adult years I had always been a huge baseball fan. I went to many games in the kingdome and follwed the sprot in a strong way. But, In the late 1980’s When baseball struck & we lost the world series - I walked away. Many of my friends said, “You’ll be back”. But, I never went back. The game died for me. I could not give you 5 names of major league players. I never go to or watch games. I don’t read about it. I have no idea how the M’s are doing right now. I could not tell you right now who won the world series last year. That stike cost MLB a loyal fan who never went back.
I totally understand the need for a level head and creating opportunities for negotiations etc. with the NBA right now. I think the strategy BR outlines of talking about a “continuous presence” is fine if it gets discussions going. I get all that. I know the risks. I don’t know what the “Odds” are that we will be able to keep this team but when it comes to crunch time in the negotiations - I risk everything to keep this team here now whatever the odds because I’m just not interested in any other alternative.
If Stern & Clay get their way with taking this team to OKC - I’m saying I would not come back to support an expansion Sonics team or a transfer team. And I’d mean it.
April 24th, 2008 at 11:06 am
Also, for all those who think we are basing our decision on “e-mail” content….get real. I am looking at the progressive content of the email and the reality that there is most likely a great deal in the arsenal. If anything most of you “settlers” don’t get that.
- People seriously are not grasping the concept that the “negotiators’ on our side of the table have access to ALL the information and therefore know how good their chances are. By knowing this information they would make the decision that makes the most sense based on their possible outcomes.
It is quite obvious that some people seem to think that we have a very good chance of winning the cases and somehow Gorton would (knowing all this) decide to just take a bad deal with the NBA…dont get it at all.
April 24th, 2008 at 11:07 am
But, I never went back. The game died for me. I could not give you 5 names of major league players. I never go to or watch games. I don’t read about it. I have no idea how the M’s are doing right now. I could not tell you right now who won the world series last year. That stike cost MLB a loyal fan who never went back.
- Everyone makes their own personal choices…and if that is your choice then I completely respect it. On the other hand…the Seattle Mariners drew 3million plus fans in the early 2000s…so you are most definately in the minority.
April 24th, 2008 at 11:08 am
Joshua says…
“One thing that bothers me is everyone thinking that we are all of the sudden “emotional” because we say go all the way. I have actually been pretty level about all of this. I am not irrational because I want to see this thing through, I may very well have a steel resolve, but that doesn’t mean that I am being “militant”.
Right on Joshua
April 24th, 2008 at 11:09 am
“Has there ever been a more vocal movement against an NBA franchise relocating that the SOS movement?”
The one in Vancouver for the Grizzlies was absolutely amazing as well. I lived in Bellingham at the time and went up to several Sonic/Grizzlies games to see it first hand.
Guess what happened to them?
April 24th, 2008 at 11:09 am
“I think those who are willing to save basketball at all costs are the irrational ones. The thought of no nba here is to scary for you.
Look at what has been done here, basically just a corporation kicking its customers to the curb, and we want more. Its like a wife who has been abused, but continues to go back because she is emotionally involved. enough is enough.”
Rigghht. But I hope you understand my post was for nothing less than THESE Sonics. I agree, enough is enough.
April 24th, 2008 at 11:10 am
I am sorry but NO to expansion. You get the expansion draft in which you can pick up d-league players that sit on the bench for other teams..oh and a lottery pick..big deal. We saw what 2 lottery picks alone with a bunch of scrubs did this year.
- Well out of those D-league players they got Gerald Wallace who would’ve been the best player on our team this year, Jason Kapono who signed a full MLE contract and would’ve been as good on our team as Wally Z (3rd best player) and Primo Brezec who is better than any of our centers. With their draft pick they got Emeka Okafor…
People need to quit making assumptions on how bad expansion teams can be…
April 24th, 2008 at 11:11 am
Keep the NBA in town, bottom line. I don’t care if it’s this team or expansion.
April 24th, 2008 at 11:11 am
Eric E., that guy at the OU newspaper is a DUMBASS! Probably trying to get a job at Clays wifes newspaper. What an IDIOT!
April 24th, 2008 at 11:12 am
Rigghht. But I hope you understand my post was for nothing less than THESE Sonics. I agree, enough is enough.
- How does it make it better if the Sonics stay? Isn’t that like the wife that gets beaten by her husband and just keeps coming baack because they’ve been together for so long??
If you truly hate the NBA and would never support it if the Sonics left…why would you support it now. Again, I know at the spur of the moment it seems easy to say that the NBA will be dead to me…but when you step back you can see that its a difficult notion to stand behind.
April 24th, 2008 at 11:12 am
“and somehow Gorton would (knowing all this) decide to just take a bad deal with the NBA…dont get it at all.”
I am not saying don’t go to the table. All I am saying is that it better not be take a chump settlement in which we let Clay-boy out of Seattle with our team. Obviously, if Slade is going to the table he has his motives….and I trust those.
April 24th, 2008 at 11:14 am
Asking us all to stomach the idea of accepting another city’s team or an expansion franchise when Bennett is being sued for fraud is ridiculous!
Are we assuming that Schultz is even willing to drop the lawsuit if Seattle is offered an expansion franchise? Aren’t we all just speculating about the strength of his case? I get the impression that we’re spinning our wheels waiting to see what’s going to happen, but it’s out of our control.
We need an arena solution.
April 24th, 2008 at 11:15 am
“I think those who are willing to save basketball at all costs are the irrational ones. The thought of no nba here is to scary for you.”
No NBA here doesn’t scare me at all, the thought of having to explain to someone why I didn’t take all ideas into consideration before digging my heels in and not budging does.
It’s very easy to say what you’d do…for you. But when you’re trying to decide what’s best for a group, a city, a region you don’t get to have the emotional this is what I’d do reaction. It’s why Slade’s a good person to be looking at this, he’s played this battle on bigger stages than this.
April 24th, 2008 at 11:18 am
“All or nothing” is a totally unfair and Bullshot label! So just knock it off.
We are not “all or nothing” as some people have erroneously labeled us.
Most of us just want what is RIGHT. I think that if a settlement with the NBA( to avoid a PR nightmare of a trial, btw) involves us keeping the current team, I would totally support droppping all lawsuits immediately.
But the alternative is not “nothing”. The alternative is to go to trial; to let the law decide. To PUBLICLY expose the inner workings of the NBA, its teams, and its leaders. This battle is about right/wrong, just as much as it is about the Sonics.
April 24th, 2008 at 11:19 am
Eric E Says:
April 24th, 2008 at 11:04 am
The publisher of the UW Daily forwarded me this article she received from a friend at the OU school newspaper. The ignorance down there is appalling!!
I couldn’t make it through the first line.
“There’s an old Eagles song that says…”
Joklahoman intern-wanna-be.
Send him a copy of Vigilante Newspaper and tell him both Soncs cases are being tried in Washington State.
http://www.washington.edu/uwpress/search/books/BALVIG.html
April 24th, 2008 at 11:19 am
I’m sad at the people who are trying to turn this into an us-against-them issue. I think I read a comment earlier by saying that anybody who would be willing to accept anything other than *this* team doesn’t deserve to be part of the fight. C’mon, people - we’re all on the same side here.
- Everybody wants this team. Everybody. I haven’t seen anybody here, least of all the SOS folks, that wants to take a buyout.
- Unless I’m misreading things, there is some disagreement on whether or not being willing to negotiate with the NBA enhances our chances of keeping this team, or undermines those chances. Personally, I think talking helps our chances of keeping this team, and I don’t think anybody
- The major disagreement seems to be what we should do if we can’t keep this team. Would it be better to have another team called the Sonics, wearing the uniform, flying the colors, with the same retired numbers, with the same history and records? Or would it be better to cause Stern and Bennett as much pain as is possible?
I get the people who would rather put the screws to the league. I get it. There’s nothing I’d like better than to make them eat all of their lies and be faced with their manipulation. I have a lot of sympathy for this view.
But our charter isn’t to cause Clay Bennett and David Stern maximum pain. Our charter isn’t to force the NBA to change its business model (as odious as it is). Our charter is to have Sonics basketball in Seattle forever for us and our children to enjoy.
Again, we all want this team. I am also in the camp that would be okay (if disappointed) with basically a franchise swap or expansion. Change the names on the back of the jersey if you must - it’s the name on the front of the jersey that matters to me.
I think Slade Gorton and Brian are taking the right course to make that second option available *and* to maximize our chances at the first option. It could be that negotiation is our best chance at keeping this team in Seattle.
And for those trying to act like the other side is a bunch of bad fans, please stop. We’re a small enough group already, we can’t afford to splinter.
April 24th, 2008 at 11:21 am
Lester Munson from ESPN will be on softie show.
April 24th, 2008 at 11:22 am
Over the past 2 years I have been slowly moving away from the NBA. I quit going to games, I did NOT renew my NBA league pass, this is the first year that I am not familiar with every teams roster. I do not even know what most of the rookies look like, outside of KD/JG. If this team leaves it will be the last straw. I don’t care what the winning percentage chances are, it is this team or I simply will no longer care. That is one persons humble opinion.
OT: Did the Gov purposely put off the arena funding so she could use her promise of doing it next year as a way to get votes?
April 24th, 2008 at 11:24 am
Chris Hafner Says:
April 24th, 2008 at 11:19 am
- Please everyone read this post…and read it again…and read it again…and read it again..
April 24th, 2008 at 11:24 am
“- How does it make it better if the Sonics stay? Isn’t that like the wife that gets beaten by her husband and just keeps coming baack because they’ve been together for so long??
If you truly hate the NBA and would never support it if the Sonics left…why would you support it now.”
I actually knew you would eventually bring that up in the discussion of things….unfortunately the post I was writing was deleted when my laptop shut off all of the sudden.
My answer is because this team is OURS. This team has been around for 41 years. We have been through so much hardship post-Kemp/Payton/Schrempf/McMillan that I don’t want to lose out on KD/JG and the possibility of Derrick Rose. This is about my childhood, and my teenage years, this about 2005 when my little bro and I were waiving 6th man towels and screaming at the top of our lungs as the Sonics beat the Spurs and wanting to see D-Mace lay the beat down on Mark Bryant in the 4th quarter. This is about enduring 10 years of mediocrity to see the first few rays of the morning begin to pierce the long dark night. This is about telling Stern he doesn’t have enough to take away what is ours, this about setting a precedent and stepping up to the challenge of being real fans. Not to mention the root word of fan is FANATIC. Can you honestly tell me that you would be completely “level” if KD were to lead this team to the finals and drop a Jordan-esque game winner to bring the Supes back to titletown? Some of this needs to be about being level, but don’t forget that you are still a fan.
April 24th, 2008 at 11:24 am
“Everyone’s ultimate goal is to keep this team but do you think one day Stern and Bennett are just going to pick up the phone and say we give up and you win? I don’t …” [Brett]
no, i don’t think they’re going to at all. it’s just that our side making an overture will accomplish nothing but another buyout offer if we don’t stick to our guns for the next 2 months. y’all act like digging in now is suicide, and it isn’t. we will get nothing out of begging PBC/NBA to come to the table until the very real threat of a loss in court staring them in the face. this will only get worse for them between now and June, much worse. patience.
April 24th, 2008 at 11:25 am
“I get the people who would rather put the screws to the league.”
its not about putting the srews to the league, but the opposite - stop putting the screw to the fans. enough.
April 24th, 2008 at 11:25 am
Slade can say what he wants and Im totally on his side and respect him, but right now it comes down to Shultzs case. The city has said it will not take a settlement and will let Howies case go on. They will probably work it together. Shultz wont need an injunction if the city wins the lease lawsuit. Does Clay really want to go those 2 years losing money and also be involved with Howies lawsuit with a chance at losing even more money when he can just give up, sell to Balmer for whatever he has lost, and wait for either an expansion(not likely) or wait for another team. Probably Memphis or it could be the Charlotte, I mean N.O. Hornets. We really seem to have the leverage here. I dont think our newspapers are filtering there news. To me it seems our newspapers are already saying good-buy to OUR team. Now the Oklahoman is a different story. Talk about filtering the info, SHIT!
April 24th, 2008 at 11:27 am
Vinny: Did the Gov purposely put off the arena funding so she could use her promise of doing it next year as a way to get votes?
If so, that’s an insanely poor political strategy.
April 24th, 2008 at 11:27 am
I agree with Brian about this. Is our goal here to save the Durant Sonics or else stick it to the league. Or is our goal to save Sonics basketball in Seattle forever?
I think either way there is a fair chance of having Durant in a Seattle Sonics uniform 2011-12, 2013 at the latest. So, I am not worried about Durant so much.
One way the team stays and he does, the other way he get’s away of Bennett’s OKC Rustlers and he signs with the Seattle Supersonics. In a sick kind of way I prefer the second option, but either way is cool with me.
April 24th, 2008 at 11:27 am
GREAT POINT HAMBONE
April 24th, 2008 at 11:29 am
“But when you’re trying to decide what’s best for a group, a city, a region”
for some, this goes beyond just our region. This could have lasting implications on other cities/teams. I think some feel that we not only are fighting for OUR team, but in some way affecting how NBA treats other cities/fans? again, idealistic, but as you want people to understand the decision for a group, sometimes that group is larger than you think.
April 24th, 2008 at 11:32 am
“its not about putting the srews to the league, but the opposite - stop putting the screw to the fans. enough.”
Bingo
April 24th, 2008 at 11:32 am
We have been through so much hardship post-Kemp/Payton/Schrempf/McMillan that I don’t want to lose out on KD/JG and the possibility of Derrick Rose. This is about my childhood, and my teenage years, this about 2005 when my little bro and I were waiving 6th man towels and screaming at the top of our lungs as the Sonics beat the Spurs and wanting to see D-Mace lay the beat down on Mark Bryant in the 4th quarter.
- If the Sonics got an expansion team and it was still named the Sonics and all that…how would any of this change??
This is about telling Stern he doesn’t have enough to take away what is ours, this about setting a precedent and stepping up to the challenge of being real fans. Not to mention the root word of fan is FANATIC.
- I think this is the most honest part of the whole argument…it seems like this is at least partly just a way to try and make David Stern/NBA/Clay Bennett angry…while I understand this feeling in short spur of the moment stints…I don’t think this should be a guiding principle to our argument. It is one based purely on emotion…emotion leads you to doing dumb things.
Can you honestly tell me that you would be completely “level” if KD were to lead this team to the finals and drop a Jordan-esque game winner to bring the Supes back to titletown?
- I wouldn’t be crushed if KD flourished elsewhere…I guess I have been jaded by the fact that players come go like nothing these days. Im more partial to the history and the memories I have created by following the team. None of those would go away no matter who is on the court, which is quite evident by the fact that I still supported the team this year even though it has absolutely no correlation with any of the memories I have from a kid…
April 24th, 2008 at 11:34 am
“its not about putting the srews to the league, but the opposite - stop putting the screw to the fans. enough.”
- If we block the move and a new Arena gets built and the Sonics stay…how did we prove the NBA wrong? We got them exactly what they wanted…
April 24th, 2008 at 11:35 am
Lester Munson is going to be on KJR in about 1 minute.
April 24th, 2008 at 11:36 am
Durant is one of a kind though. Jordanesque is right on.
April 24th, 2008 at 11:37 am
The more and more I talk today the more I realize that I think I have achieved Dick Tate’s level of acceptance with this whole ordeal.
I will always be a sports fan…and would love to have an NBA team in this town for my kids to grow up and believe in. However, the naivety has been lost…sort of like how you feel after your first true heartbreak…
April 24th, 2008 at 11:37 am
“- If the Sonics got an expansion team and it was still named the Sonics and all that…how would any of this change??”
It represents a break in continuity, and therefore is not the Sonics. More like Sonics 2.0
April 24th, 2008 at 11:38 am
“Durant is one of a kind though.”
One of a kind? come on.
Scary as this sounds, I’m more emotionally attached to Mo Sene than I am Kevin Durant.
April 24th, 2008 at 11:38 am
What’s up with the Task Force?
The obvious best way to keep the current team is a remodel deal before the trials start. ANd without the authorization to use the stadium tax for the other $75 million, there’s no stadium. Since there aren’t enough votes, there’s no point in the Governor calling a special session (other than accountability, but a no vote would be more detrimental than accountability is worth). The next legislative session won’t start until January, 2009, I believe. Obviously, this means the city would HAVE to win the lease case (or Howard get an injunction) and force them to stay another year. Unless something happens in the meantime to get the $75 million approved.
What could happen? Well this session, the legislature convened a task force to determine how to split up the extra revenue from the King County stadium tax before it retires in 2010. After that is settled, it sounds like the legislature would vote to pass whatever plan the task force comes up with. Not a given, but that was the strong implication. Is that Task Force working now? The only links I could find seem to indicate that the task force needs to report by 12/1/2008 (although it says 2007 in the budget….) and a final report by 1/1/2009.
Is there anyway to push their timeline up? Or at least get them to the point where they can make a partial declaration that $75 million will be set aside for the Key, and then figure out the rest later? Probably too much to expect, but it seems like that may be a good place to apply pressure than just asking the Gov to call a special session that won’t get a vote passed. Any thoughts on that?
April 24th, 2008 at 11:41 am
Reposted that last thing on the new thread…
April 24th, 2008 at 11:41 am
“…it seems like this is at least partly just a way to try and make David Stern/NBA/Clay Bennett angry…”
Myk, you really don’t understand. It’s OK with me if you have a different opinion, but it is another thing altogether when you are telling me WHY I feel the way I do.
This is about maintaining the 41 year continuity of the Sonics. An expansion team would be a different team. Same colors, but a BREAK in continuity. To me, unacceptable. I know you would be happy with that. I guess we disagree.
April 24th, 2008 at 11:41 am
“The more and more I talk today the more I realize that I think I have achieved Dick Tate’s level of acceptance with this whole ordeal.”
Scary as it sounds, I’m probably right there with you.
I don’t know enough about any of the details that Slade and Co know about so I’ll let them decide what’s best for me.
“However, the naivety has been lost…sort of like how you feel after your first true heartbreak…”
Just like the next trip to the SB for the Hawks won’t be as great as the first, or like how the 01 Mariners as great as they were never quite captivated me like the 95 ones did.
April 24th, 2008 at 11:42 am
“- I wouldn’t be crushed if KD flourished elsewhere…I guess I have been jaded by the fact that players come go like nothing these days. Im more partial to the history and the memories I have created by following the team. None of those would go away no matter who is on the court, which is quite evident by the fact that I still supported the team this year even though it has absolutely no correlation with any of the memories I have from a kid… ”
Then you want the NBA in town, not the Sonics, because one memory that comes with a replacement is the fact that Stern and Bennett stole your team. I don’t buy the memories thing. Depsite what everyone is saying, if Howie wins the case, it doesn’t matter what arena we have, Ballmer would own the team, and regardless his statements on getting the extra 75m(which I think is public language to leverage government money) the NBA couldn’t force him to build anything.
April 24th, 2008 at 11:43 am
Greetings-
I may not be that much of a basketball fan (Hockey is my true love) but I am a fan of tradition and our local sports teams (except for the Silvertips). With that said the reason why I come here is to read up on how we can keep our community asset the Sonics in Seattle.
For me the reason I wouldn’t want to take an expansion team is this…. The Sonics were here from the beginning, they didn’t exist before they came here. The team and it’s history grew up as the town grew up. So to me logic would say if Oklahoma City could get an expansion team then I think it would be better for them because it would be the same situation we had. It would be a true team they could call their own. They aren’t someones failed team or stolen team it’s one that they were given to create and to build a tradition around.
Giving the Sonics to OKC and giving us an expansion team just seems to be an additional step that doesn’t need to happen. I guess it would be like someone saying “I’m taking your brother but don’t worry, next year we are going to give you a replacement brother so it will be ok”.
April 24th, 2008 at 11:44 am
Too much stuff to read through all of this so far. However after the skim down, let me just say congratualtions to the powers that be who have seemingly injected a schism into the once united SOS front.
You are all talking about the same coin, just two different sides. Some want a replacement/expansion, some want all or nothing. Why don’t we set this aside and consentrait on what really matters right now.. an arena, without which we all lose. The bickering and divide we see does us no good right now and should be shelved until a later date.
“Scary as this sounds, I’m more emotionally attached to Mo Sene than I am Kevin Durant. ”
Yes, that DOES sound scary.
April 24th, 2008 at 11:48 am
“its not about putting the srews to the league, but the opposite - stop putting the screw to the fans. enough.”
You mean us fans, or you mean all fans? Because if you mean all fans and not just us, and you really want to change the business model, your goal is to expose and destroy and embarrass as much as possible in trial. And while we may have to do that anyway, that’s a course of action that might actually work against keeping this team here.
Let’s be clear on what our goal is. Is our goal to keep our team? Or is the goal to expose the fan screw-job that has happened here and force changes to the league to protect other cities?
I’m asking because those have the potential to be two different paths. If our leverage continues to increase to the point where Stern offers us our team in exchange for dropping the lawsuit and letting the whole mess blow over, wouldn’t accepting that deal give up the opportunity to expose the fan screw-job in court and force change to how the league works with other cities?
And then if you reject that offer (which would never happen, of course) in the goal to show the NBA that it shouldn’t mess with fans, blackmail cities, etc., you dramatically hurt the chances of keeping this team.
Realistically speaking, of course, we take that deal and cheer about it. This is and always has been standing up for ourselves, not for forcing the NBA to change how it does business.
But look at it this way - if we do a good enough job of standing up for ourselves to back down the league enough to keep our team, or even get an expansion team, that would be a huge victory–a defeat for the NBA, and would serve as an example of why extorting fans and cities is a bad idea. If we get that, I’m sure the NBA’s conversation with Sacramento will have to change somewhat.
April 24th, 2008 at 11:49 am
Lester Munson thinks Schultz has a 55- 60% chance of success.
April 24th, 2008 at 11:49 am
Lester Munson of ESPN.com on KJR just said that he originally gave Schultz a 0% chance. But upon further review he now says 55-60%.
April 24th, 2008 at 11:50 am
This debate is getting quite interesting. The past week has seen the common “Save This Team” attitude change for some to “Save Basketball in Seattle.” Some fans just want to be able to watch basketball in this city plain and simple. I am also one of the people who enjoyed going to many games this season, despite it being the worst team in franchise history.
For the “Save Basketball” camp, they highly value watching basketball (in person) in their daily lives. And at the end of this situation they want to still be able to do that.
But I still lean more toward the “Save this Team” crowd. Mainly because what Bennett and Stern are doing is wrong, and I’d rather see them stopped so this doesn’t happen to Minnesota or Indianapolis or Milwaukee or where ever.
Basically for me it comes down to this: I’m willing to sacrifice watching basketball live for standing up to those A**holes and setting the precident (pro teams cannot push a city around). Becuase this whole thing is BS.
April 24th, 2008 at 11:50 am
ESPN guy says 60% chance Schultz wins and the team is flipped to Ballmer. I agree. This expansion talk is waaaaay premature. Our goal is to save the Sonics, so let’s support Schultz, Ballmer, and Mayor Nickles and SAVE THE SONICS!
Also, we must force Governor Do Nothing to call a special session and get an arena deal done NOW!
April 24th, 2008 at 11:52 am
jacedmo: “You are all talking about the same coin, just two different sides. Some want a replacement/expansion, some want all or nothing. Why don’t we set this aside and consentrait on what really matters right now.. an arena, without which we all lose. ”
Yes, exactly. Without an arena deal, we’re sunk regardless. There’s no point in bashing each other–without an arena deal, we’ll have years and years to argue on stormcentral.com about who was right and who was wrong.
April 24th, 2008 at 11:55 am
Then you want the NBA in town, not the Sonics, because one memory that comes with a replacement is the fact that Stern and Bennett stole your team. I don’t buy the memories thing. Depsite what everyone is saying, if Howie wins the case, it doesn’t matter what arena we have, Ballmer would own the team, and regardless his statements on getting the extra 75m(which I think is public language to leverage government money) the NBA couldn’t force him to build anything
- The memories will never change. You can’t effect the memories no matter what happens. If the Sonics are gone for five years and come back I will still be able to think back to 1996 and remember where I was when Seattle beat Utah in the WCF…if losing a team for two years would some how remove the meaning of those memories from your heart that is disappointing.
- I still dont see where the connection is made between this team full of sad-sack losers and the teams that helped generate those memories. Since losing KD seems to be the focal point of this debate I would have to ask what would’ve happened if we had ended up with Yi Janlian.
Would you not want to the Sonics to stay? Would you somehow be more OK with an expansion team?
- Well the Ballmer group has said they need a new Arena too…don’t be crazy enough to think they’d buy the team without an Arena deal.
April 24th, 2008 at 11:55 am
^ we are only $75,000,000 away from an arena deal. Governor Do Nothing was able to allocate $85,000,000 to a horse center in Winlock, she should easily get the $75,000,000 towards an arena. Sadly she doesn’t care so we need to vote her out. If the lawsuit stretches out long enough, Governor Rossi will get a deal done.
April 24th, 2008 at 12:02 pm
So the issue is $75 million dollars to keep the team. According to my calculations the Sonics draw about 600,000 attendees per year. A sir charge of $10 per ticket would pay off $75 million over 15 years. The Sonics have a fairly low average ticket price when compared to the rest of the league. The average ticket in the NBA is about $55. The Sonics average ticket was $40 last year. Would those on this board support a $10 per seat tax at the arena?
April 24th, 2008 at 12:03 pm
Hey Scott, Iwas wrong. Durants not one of a kind, you are. Sene over Durant? Are you kidding me?
April 24th, 2008 at 12:04 pm
I agree with Kingdome, expansion talk is premature given the two lawsuits pending.
April 24th, 2008 at 12:09 pm
So the issue is $75 million dollars to keep the team. According to my calculations the Sonics draw about 600,000 attendees per year. A sir charge of $10 per ticket would pay off $75 million over 15 years. The Sonics have a fairly low average ticket price when compared to the rest of the league. The average ticket in the NBA is about $55. The Sonics average ticket was $40 last year. Would those on this board support a $10 per seat tax at the arena?
- That is how they are funding the first $75 million dollars..
April 24th, 2008 at 12:10 pm
Hey Scott, Iwas wrong. Durants not one of a kind, you are. Sene over Durant? Are you kidding me?
- Durant is great…however one of a kind should only be used on players who truly are “one of a kind”…that is a much smaller class:
Jordan
Bird
Magic
LeBron
Shaq
I don’t agree with AKs TMac comparisons (or actually that a TMac comparison is bad)…but he is much closer to that class then “one of a kind”
April 24th, 2008 at 12:24 pm
Chris Hafner’s 11:24 am post is right on the money.
April 24th, 2008 at 12:38 pm
Lemon at 11:24 - who said anything about begging? You are putting words in my mouth. Opening up discussions is just that - enough with the hyperbole - be fair to what I actually said and not what you want me to say so our opinions can be polar opposite because in reality they probably aren’t.
No one on here who is advocating talking with Bennett and Stern is advocating rolling over. Is that clear enough?
April 24th, 2008 at 12:40 pm
“Hey Scott, Iwas wrong. Durants not one of a kind, you are. Sene over Durant? Are you kidding me?”
Apparently comprehension isn’t your strong point. Please tell me where I said anythng to the effect of Sene over Durant.
Sadly till Clay takes his hands off this team I really only have any attachment to Collison, Swift, Sene, Petro, Ridnour and Wilkins.
And yes, I am one of a kind.
April 24th, 2008 at 1:48 pm
Just sent to Christine…
I am a Huge sonics fan, you may claim you are but you have done nothing to help with the arena funding effort except doublespeak and showing false support. Therefore I am not only voting for the “Rossi in ‘08″ campaign, I am going to campaign for them as well. My guess, you lose by around 16000 votes this comming fall. Sorry, but you had your chance. Howard Schultz shows how a leader takes action.
April 24th, 2008 at 1:52 pm
Pechnam now to preside over Howards case.
April 24th, 2008 at 1:52 pm
Pechman^
April 24th, 2008 at 7:32 pm
BR: If they offered that expansion, history, draft package you mentioned I would look at it but only if every possible option to keep the team was exhausted.
Myk: You can call BS on the ‘NBA is dead’ people but not on me. I think I mentioned before that I used to be a MLB freak. Used to have game parties. They burned me out years ago (early 90s) in more ways than one. Since then I have seen exactly 2 pitches I ran across flipping channels (both Ichiro game ending ground outs - wanted to see what the Ichiro hype was all about…obviously didn’t make a good impression). Thats it. I can’t tell you 99% of the players out there, have no clue what teams are good or bad, and I can’t tell you who has won the WS for nearly 20 years (although I think Randy Johnson won with the Arizona team and some fan interfered with a ball that gave Boston a ring or something like that). The MLB means absolutely nothing to me anymore. I’ve always been an NFL and NBA fan so I just divide my time and money there now. If I decide to ban the NBA then the NFL wins my loyalty, after my wife and 2 kids. As of yet I haven’t made a commitment either way on supporting another NBA team but my decision effects nothing in the final outcome so it doesn’t matter anyway.
Patches: I wouldn’t support an extra $10 per seat tax. That would easily put them out of my budget and I’d have to end my 15 year season tickets. So in that case they lose money.