No More Flopping!
Posted on Thursday, May 29th, 2008 at 11:59 am by Big Chris
Or at least if you flop you will get fined and maybe suspended if you do it enough. ESPN reported today that the NBA informed teams that starting next year they will be assessing fines to floppers. Call in the Manu rule.
In his ever so eloquent way, Mr. Rasheed Wallaced offered this quote in regards to players who flop:
“All that bull[expletive]-ass calls they had out there. With Mike [Callahan] and Kenny [Mauer] — you’ve all seen that [expletive],” Wallace said. “You saw them calls. The cats are flopping all over the floor and they’re calling that [expletive]. That [expletive] ain’t basketball out there. It’s all [expletive] entertainment. You all should know that [expletive]. It’s all [expletive] entertainment.”
If you want to watch flopping (in my opinion) you can dial in a Soccer match or some WWE wrestling.
Also from ESPN talking about the competition committee:
The committee had extensive discussions about expanding the use of instant replay for next season and voted to recommend a proposal which calls for the use of replay to assist referees in determining whether a basket or a shot on which a player is fouled is taken from behind the 3-point line.
The committee, as expected, is also backing the league’s wish to use instant replay to resolve discrepancies on clock malfunctions, after a major clock issue during the Detroit-Orlando series in the second round.
May 29th, 2008 at 12:05 pm
Hate floppers. My mind fails me but there was someone in the past who was the master at it and I hated him. I’m thinking Malone. Right?
May 29th, 2008 at 12:10 pm
I will always consider “Vlade Dadi I like to Party” Divac to be the Flop King.
May 29th, 2008 at 12:17 pm
I love flopping…nothing pisses off the other team more then getting the flopping call on them…it is an art form!
May 29th, 2008 at 12:18 pm
Im calling it..Ginobli’s salary is cut in half next year.
May 29th, 2008 at 12:19 pm
SamK, yes I think that is who I am thinking about.
May 29th, 2008 at 12:34 pm
Who was complaining about flopping when Reggie Evans was flopping during our playoff year?
How are you going to determine if a guy was flopping or not? If someone is guarding SHAQ he’s so big and strong how are you going to tell me that the guy guarding him was flopping?
If they want to do something they should fine Bruce Bowen everytime he sticks his foot under another guys foot when he is coming down from his shot or when Bowen knees a guy in the thigh/groin when Bowen is jumping.
May 29th, 2008 at 12:37 pm
Reggie Evans and all the European’s are not loving this one.
Oh yeah Manu too.
May 29th, 2008 at 12:46 pm
Am I missing something?
What is flopping?
Is there flopping in the NBA?
May 29th, 2008 at 12:56 pm
THANK GOD!!!!!!
Take that Manu.
WHY COULDN’T THEY DO THIS BEFORE OUR 2005 MATCHUP WITH THE SPURS?????
I wanted to throw my controller through the TV after Manu’s absurd flops. Flopping isn’t basketball and this is something I have felt passionately about for a few years now. About time the NBA did something about it.
May 29th, 2008 at 1:08 pm
This is some of the best news I have heard in a while with regards to the NBA. All of the flopping that has come with the wave of European and South American players makes me sick. It makes the game weak and makes it so i just can’t watch it anymore. I am happy the NBA is finally going to do something about it. I am wondering how they are actually going to enforce it though. Will the be going through games with slow motion after it is over and analyzing all 100 flops throughout the game? It should be interesting. I hope that the main culprits are penalized heavily……i.e. The entire Spurs team
May 29th, 2008 at 1:11 pm
Hate floppers. My mind fails me but there was someone in the past who was the master at it and I hated him. I’m thinking Malone. Right?
Laporbo, how ’bout his buddy, John Stockton? I swear to God if I ever see him on the street I’d yell “FLOP!!!” right in his face.
May 29th, 2008 at 1:12 pm
Thank you David Stern, if only you would do the same for the “sweet flip” as you’ve done the sweet flop.
May 29th, 2008 at 1:22 pm
I love flopping…nothing pisses off the other team more then getting the flopping call on them…it is an art form!
I can’t stand people who say that shit. That’s the second thing I would say If I was cheating during a game. The first would be that I didn’t flop of course. It’s cheating!
May 29th, 2008 at 1:31 pm
so how are you supposed to draw a charge now?
May 29th, 2008 at 1:41 pm
Depending on the officials, my 13yr old daughter in AAU ball will fall to the ground if someone pushes of just a little. She gets the call and sheepishly grins while running back to the other end of the floor. It’s called trying to get extra possessions to help your team win a game. If you are convincing enough I don’t know why you shouldn’t flop. When the refs are allowing a lot of contact and you get hit going to the bucket and don’t get a call you have to change your approach. I tell her to scream like she’s been punched the next time. Working for a call and getting the other team in foul trouble is an age old strategy. The only problem is with HD and ESPN showing the plays over and over again it only seems to be more prevalent now.
May 29th, 2008 at 1:44 pm
They should fine the refs for falling for it.
May 29th, 2008 at 2:05 pm
How about Dennis Rodman flopping all over the place in the 96 finals against Brick, Kemp and Smooth?
May 29th, 2008 at 2:29 pm
Who was complaining about flopping when Reggie Evans was flopping during our playoff year?
How are you going to determine if a guy was flopping or not? If someone is guarding SHAQ he’s so big and strong how are you going to tell me that the guy guarding him was flopping?
If they want to do something they should fine Bruce Bowen everytime he sticks his foot under another guys foot when he is coming down from his shot or when Bowen knees a guy in the thigh/groin when Bowen is jumping.
I don’t think they’ll call a flop if somebody like Shaq bulldozed somebody like Allen Iverson. However if a guy like Iverson charges into a guy like Ben wallace and Wallace goes down, it’ll probably be considered a flop.
May 29th, 2008 at 2:35 pm
Or if there are guys that have their arms flailing and looking overdramatic, that would probably be considered flopping.
May 29th, 2008 at 2:45 pm
Or if Cartman is there with a donkey… I imagine there might be some floppy involved there.
May 29th, 2008 at 2:56 pm
“Who was complaining about flopping when Reggie Evans was flopping during our playoff year?”
I was, for one … Reggie didn’t need to flop around and fall like a jerk to be good. I would much rather see guys be tough and hold their position.
I put the blame on referees for falling for it; it’s a lot like refs that wait until the basket is made or missed before calling a foul.
May 29th, 2008 at 3:11 pm
I think as long as physical contacts are legitimately made, the league will let it pass.
Anyone remember the Sonics-Spurs playoff series a couple of years ago when Ginobili’s face was phantomly hit by Lewis’ elbow?
May 29th, 2008 at 3:19 pm
Hopefully the fines will be aggressively escalating.
1st time: $1000.00
2nd time $5000.00
3rd time $10,000.00
and so on throught the year.
Flopping in the playoffs will be automatic 1 game suspension.
May 29th, 2008 at 3:31 pm
All right, now who determines if it was a flop? Will the fines be automatic or will they be able to appeal the fine? I see this as being a complete mess and waste of time. This is just like the new ball they tried, it will be short lived if at all. It works theoretically but I don’t see it being practical in use. Just another example of Stern trying to show his power over the league and possibly placating just one individual complainer.
May 29th, 2008 at 3:39 pm
The refs should be able to distinquish a charge, foul and flop all by themselves, but they don’t learn like they used to. I can’t wait for Stern to demand payment from the players if they don’t shape up.
May 29th, 2008 at 3:57 pm
My favorite flop quote ever….
Sacramento coach Rick Adelman said Sonics forward Reggie Evans, “goes down when the air conditioning comes on.”
May 29th, 2008 at 4:08 pm
love it or hate it just remember this, a smart player will get away with what ever a dumb ref will let him get away with. the nba is a joke, has been for a while and that non call “mistake” in the spurs lakers series is just the biggest joke of all time. stern needs to go and someone needs to step into his place and turn the league from a show back to a sport again.
May 29th, 2008 at 4:13 pm
i think this is awesome. flopping has degraded the game over the last 5 or so years: players have lost the will to move their feet and actually play defense, and big men have increasingly become disadvantaged when being guarded by smaller defenders, including point guards or 2-guards on rotations.
it is so easy to spot a flop in slow motion. they could pay anyone above the age 10 to spot them on replays.
Dork1013 raises a good point about appeals, but i think flopping is so obvious in slow motion a player would be embarrassed to challenge it.
it isn’t even really about the fines that hurts the culprits, but the league and hopefully officials will start taking into account who the big fakers are and in-game wont give them those calls.
May 29th, 2008 at 4:20 pm
Z4EC,
I referenced that series towards the beginning of this thread.
May 29th, 2008 at 4:24 pm
Eric E Says:
May 29th, 2008 at 4:20 pm
Z4EC,
I referenced that series towards the beginning of this thread.
Sorry I missed it. My apologies.
May 29th, 2008 at 4:55 pm
anyone remember when antoine walker was ejected, fined and suspended for elbowing chris gatling in the face, even though on replays you could tell he never even touched him? i hope walker got reimbursed for that.
May 29th, 2008 at 5:31 pm
Just wanted to invite you and your readers for a Liv Blog of the Lakers and Spurs Game 5 match up at LA Ball Talk.
http://www.laballtalk.com/2008/05/29/lakers-vs-spurs-game-5-live-blog/
BTW, I submitted an article a while back about Saving the Sonics and I’m not sure whether it got listed on your article.
May 29th, 2008 at 5:44 pm
I’m dissapointed in you Big Chris: no need to lash out at soccer because the NBA has some foreign floppers! Until you have seen Brian Mcbride take a head injury that left him bleeding on the turf, only to return five minutes later and lead the USA team to vitory, you have no right to talk. In fact, FIFA already punishes floppers, they’ve been doing it for years. That steve nash injury to the nose in the playoffs? On a soccer pitch he would have just done his best to hid it and power on. I love the NBA and I love this blog, but you guys really gotta learn to pick your battles or back out of things you know nothing about (in my opinion).
May 29th, 2008 at 6:07 pm
Completely unrelated, but apparently Durant and Bayless are good friends.
http://www.hoopsworld.com/Story.asp?story_id=8886
Take a look at this article from Hoopsworld:
Bayless Sold on the Sonics
By: Preetom Bhattacharya Last Updated: 5/29/08 7:14 PM ET | 73 times read
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Jerryd Bayless would love to play for the Sonics.
He doesn’t care that the team is slated to move to Oklahoma City. He doesn’t mind the rain. (Although, when his Arizona Wildcats visited the University of Washington Huskies in February “it was actually sunny outside,” he said.) And it certainly doesn’t bother him that the town is known for Starbucks – even though he admits that he “definitely” doesn’t like coffee.
What Bayless is focusing on is the opportunity to play beside Kevin Durant.
“We’d play great together,” Bayless told the throng of reporters surrounding him on Thursday at Orlando’s Pre-Draft Camp. “I’ve known Kevin since freshman year in high school. The funny thing is, right when the lottery balls were done, he texted me right away and started talking about the whole situation of what it could be.”
Although the Sonics finished as bottom-feeders in this year’s Western Conference, the collection of talent the franchise would be holding onto should Bayless be their pick would be outstanding. Visions of Bayless feeding Durant on the wing, travelling at an amount of speed difficult for opposing defenses to contend with, could become a distinct reality next season.
Even more daunting would be the fact the duo has already established a chemistry between them. “We’ve played together in little camps and things like that before and we’ve always played really well together,” Bayless said. “Having a guy like that on the wing, all you have to do is throw the ball up to him and he’s going to take care of business. It’s not going to be too tough of my job – just get him the ball and let him work with it.”
That uptempo style of play would immediately suit Bayless’ strengths, and with neither Earl Watson nor Luke Ridnour really securing the starting point guard position Bayless will have a chance to contribute immediately. Having Durant by his side, at least according to Bayless, would ease the transition from college ball to the NBA and pay off with immediate dividends for the Sonics.
“He’s an exceptional talent,” Bayless said of this year’s Rookie of the Year. “There’s not too many of him that come along quite often. Playing with him would be a dream come true from a point guard’s standpoint because it takes a lot of load off my plate – give him the ball and let him create with it.”
But Bayless isn’t only focusing on the chance to play with Durant, as he embodies the lead-guard mentality of spreading the wealth. As effusive as Bayless was about Durant’s abilities, he made sure to make significant mention of the Sonics’ other rookie, Jeff Green. “Having Jeff Green down below to give him the ball and let him create,” Bayless said, would create a situation where “there wouldn’t be too much for me to do.”
“It’ll be a great opportunity to play with [Durant] and Green,” Bayless said, talking about the prospects of playing for the Sonics.
So although it sounds like Bayless is sold on the Sonics, it’s yet to be seen whether the Sonics are sold on Bayless.
What Bayless may have going against him is that his game is that of a two-guard, but he won’t be able to defend that position in the NBA. He’s been labeled a “combo guard” by scouts and draft experts, which really bothers the young man from Arizona.
“It just frustrates me a lot of times when they say ‘he’s a combo guard, he’s a pure point guard,’” Bayless said on Thursday. “But what really is a pure point guard?”
What irks him is that Bayless – measuring in at 6′3 and 200 pounds – is a smaller player that is a capable scorer, but he wants people to notice what he can do on the basketball court that helps lead his team to wins, even if it means challenging conventional basketball roles and structure.
For him, the art of the floor general comes down to decision making. “You need to know when you need to score and when you need to pass,” Bayless said. “But all the great point guards in the league need to know how to score.” Bayless cited Chris Paul and Steve Nash, both considered “pure point guards” as examples, pointing out that both players can score whenever they want to.
“I don’t really know what a pure point guard is anymore anyways,” a perturbed Bayless added about his common criticism. Ultimately, though, the proverbial ball is in Bayless’ court, as he’ll be able to show teams his point guard skills (ball-handling, penetration, and passing) in workouts. His goal should be to come off more as a Tony Parker than a Monta Ellis.
Should that happen, shouldn’t the Sonics be calling?
May 29th, 2008 at 6:37 pm
TB said: “so how are you supposed to draw a charge now?”
Like a man. As it should be.
May 29th, 2008 at 6:48 pm
in 40 some odd years of watching basketball last nites celtic piston game had to rank up there as one of the worst officiated games ive ever seen.it was so biased(as i am) for boston,otherwise as unemotionally that detroit played for most of the game they would of walked to a victory.while it is definately irksome when players flop if it helps your team then do it.the problem comes when refs only see the play peripherally and make their judgement on that and not seeing how little contact there really was.
one question did anyone see paul pierce tackle billups in the 4th quarter.just what the hell was that???how can they not call that a flagrant,how can pierce even be playing in tommorrows game?
May 29th, 2008 at 6:52 pm
I played soccer for many years at the club level. I’ve watched soccer most of my life. I stand by my assessment. I never stated there were no legit injuries and heroic play despite those injuries. But the flopping is going on all over the place. I honestly wonder if you’ve watched anything above teen girl’s soccer if you think otherwise Dave. Manu learned his flopping through his soccer play, he’s said so himself in interviews. It’s no secret.
Big Chris
May 29th, 2008 at 7:59 pm
Hopefully they will start calling traveling soon as well.
May 29th, 2008 at 8:03 pm
Durant seems to be great friends with everybody in this draft apparently…
May 29th, 2008 at 8:14 pm
Another interesting tidbit from DraftExress:
“Numerous sources with varying ties to Minnesota confirmed to DraftExpress over the past few days that Timberwolves GM Kevin McHale has locked in on UCLA freshman Kevin Love as possibly his favorite prospect in this draft. McHale reportedly likes the skill-level and all-around feel for the game that Love brings to the table, as well as his winning mentality, and sees him as an excellent potential compliment to Al Jefferson in Minnesota’s front-court. ”
If so, it looks like we could have our choice between Mayo and Bayless. I would tend to lean towards Mayo, but all indications point towards Presti liking Bayless. Then again, I suppose that could change over the next couple weeks.
‘
-=cysco
May 29th, 2008 at 8:20 pm
Yes, Comic, Stockton was the flopmaster. Thanks for remembering that. Fucking hated that too. I respect Utah now but they were the ultimate enemy for so many years…
Fortunately or not, there is no real way to determine what is flopping and what is not. It’s totally subjective. All you folks who want to regulate it just better realize how fucking hard it will be to actually do that.
Given all this, it is true that flopping is an art form. And within the CURRENT rules of NBA basketball, guys like Ginobili are nothing short of state of the art in terms of flopping. So don’t detract so much from the artful floppers. It’s really just guys doing everything they can to win. This is why the Spurs are so succesful - nearly everyone on the team gets it that winning is the key, all the other selfish play is just pissing in the wind.
Rodman and Reggie are perfect examples. Yeah, you don’t wanna play against them. Yeah, they won the game for you plenty of times with their aggressive and dirty style. But they won. And you better believe that is where it’s at. Rough? Most certainly. Unfair? Possibly. But winning is winning, and the record stands, all your complaining aside.
May 29th, 2008 at 8:42 pm
No worries Z4,
I’m just glad someone else thought about it too!!
May 29th, 2008 at 8:47 pm
Tom Ziller had a recent piece defending combo guards and questioning “purity”, noting that none of the top 14 assist men are still alive in playoffs.
I definitely agree that PGs must be a pretty good scoring threat, preferably 15+ a game but at least 10.
Big assists per game from the starting PG are not necessary, different offensive sets and player shares of passing responsibility can work. Moderate assists (5-6 a game) are a reasonable expectation for a near full-time PG and pretty necessary. A combo guard who plays more SG might be ok at 4. A good team assist level is fairly important. PG Turnovers are probably more important their assists. Team FG% and overall offensive efficiency with that PG on court are very important. As is team defense.
Being a combo guard by itself is not good or bad.
If you are an efficient and frequent scorer, great. If your floor game is decent, cool. But you need to elevate or at least maintain decent or good team performance. Combo guards have a bad name from those whose focus on their individual game doesn’t yield enough and comes at the expense of the team game / results.
I haven’t seen on/off stats for players like Bayless and Mayo. Don’t know if they are out there publicly but I’d hope Presti has had them worked up and includes them in his consideration.
May 29th, 2008 at 8:57 pm
Don’t have to be a great direct leader of the offense (if the other players know what they are doing and the coach does too- big ifs)-
but you can’t muck it up frequently either.
Mayo and Bayless probably would not be in the worst muck it up group but how good is the big question.
If they play much PG.
Who the other guard is much of the time is also a key factor. If it is Durant does he help run the offense to the level of the average SG in league, better or worse. He has potential for this but it was less than average this season in this regard, by the numbers.
May 29th, 2008 at 9:29 pm
“Rodman and Reggie are perfect examples. Yeah, you don’t wanna play against them. Yeah, they won the game for you plenty of times with their aggressive and dirty style. But they won. And you better believe that is where it’s at. Rough? Most certainly. Unfair? Possibly. But winning is winning, and the record stands, all your complaining aside. ”
Couldn’t disagree more Speed. I see no problem with rough play because much of it is legal. And playing up to the limit of the rules or even a bit past is fine. But dirty unfair play is just BS! What do you think it takes to be the winner of the game–the best ball squeezer? I always liked watching Reggie but it was for his rebounds, defense, and most of all his willingness to dive after any loose ball. NOT his ability to dive after the opponents balls.
The team that wins is supposed to be the best BASKETBALL team and best players. If we follow the do-whatever-it-takes to win logic, and anything goes, then the most deviant backstabbing goon becomes the winner. What if one of them takes a razor blade out there… just part of the game? How about having 3 expendable duds to put in to break Bostons “big threes” ankles? Then the game loses all it’s most skilled players and becomes nothing.
Okay off my soap box. Hope you don’t take offense I like your posts, just not this one.
May 30th, 2008 at 7:14 am
What will coach K do now since Duke is the Flop university of the world!! Battier, langdon, collins, etc should be in the flop hall of shame for their crap calls throughout their college careers! Rodman against Kemp was a joke in the NBA finals too, but i guess he didnt have any other options since the Reignman averaged 28 pts and 13 Rebounds that series! He should have been the Finals MVP instead of jordan that year!
May 30th, 2008 at 7:57 am
Big Chris: “I played soccer for many years at the club level. I’ve watched soccer most of my life. I stand by my assessment. I never stated there were no legit injuries and heroic play despite those injuries. But the flopping is going on all over the place. I honestly wonder if you’ve watched anything above teen girl’s soccer if you think otherwise Dave.”
OH WOW you’ve played CLUB soccer?!?! Daaaaaang! Well consider me impressed. And you’ve even watched soccer MOST of your life?!?! Well then you MUST be the expert you claim to be!
As someone who has watched and played soccer ALL of my life I can appreciate the pro’s, the semi pro’s, the women, the girls, and even your cute little club team
To put soccer on par with WWE and keep a straight face is a shame. Looks like this country will never get past its anti-soccer roots with this sort of thinking. I’ll see you saturday chris, I assume you’ll be there?
May 30th, 2008 at 8:51 am
Dave,
Where I grew up, club soccer was what was beyond the varsity level - it was the best of the best, the traveling teams and such. I say I’ve watched soccer most of my life because before I was 12 or so, there wasn’t much soccer to watch, for sure none if you didn’t have cable. I’d guess I hadn’t seen soccer before the mid-80’s, so I wanted to be honest about it.
As for playing Saturday, if you are in South-central Minnesota I might meet you on the pitch. Though I’m no longer the svelte soccer player I once was!
As for classifying the flopping in soccer with that of wrestling, I’ve seen it come pretty close.
May 30th, 2008 at 5:19 pm
“Couldn’t disagree more Speed. I see no problem with rough play because much of it is legal. And playing up to the limit of the rules or even a bit past is fine. But dirty unfair play is just BS! What do you think it takes to be the winner of the game–the best ball squeezer? I always liked watching Reggie but it was for his rebounds, defense, and most of all his willingness to dive after any loose ball. NOT his ability to dive after the opponents balls.”
Yeah he went over the line big time there. But Reggie’s flopping wasn’t over the line IMO. I was referring to flopping, not to rough play.