Lakers vs. Celtics Finals
Posted on Friday, May 30th, 2008 at 10:16 pm by Big Chris
Congrats to the Celtics on making it in. It’s David Stern’s marketing wet dream, let the hype begin.
For Celtic’s blog reaction check out:
Celtics Blog
Red’s Army
TommyPoint
Green Bandwagon
For the Laker’s blog reaction check out:
May 30th, 2008 at 10:33 pm
Screw You, David Stern.
May 30th, 2008 at 10:48 pm
Go Celtics!
Here’s hoping Ray & KG lead the C’s to a big win.
I think the trade last year with Ray going to Boston & the Sonics getting JG could be a classic example of a trade that both teams will look back on and say they are glad they did it.
Ray helps attract KG and helps get the C’s into the finals while breathing life back into the franchise - Sonics get a solid young player.
A win-win
May 30th, 2008 at 10:49 pm
Would’ve preferred to see a matchup that would’ve drawn abysmal ratings so the Seattle v. Sonics lawsuit could’ve/would’ve gotten more pub but….. Celtics v. Lakers seemed rather “preordained” since the playoffs started.
May 30th, 2008 at 11:19 pm
The premier superstar in the game, out to prove he can do it without another superstar. A superior coach, going for his 10th title. Complementary players who both understand and fulfill their roles to near-perfection.
Lakers in 7.
May 30th, 2008 at 11:34 pm
Thiis us great, this matchup will draw eyeballs of people that would otherwise be looking at pre-allstar break baseball, most basketball fans, most big media producers, all consuming NBA stories, and boy, do we have an interesting story here, one that is about to be exposed to a bunch of your average entertainment/sport consumers.
Welcome sports media tourists!
Lakers in 7, they are deeper.
May 30th, 2008 at 11:42 pm
Mr. Baker Says: This us great, this matchup will draw eyeballs of people that would otherwise be looking at pre-allstar break baseball, most basketball fans, most big media producers, all consuming NBA stories, and boy, do we have an interesting story here, one that is about to be exposed to a bunch of your average entertainment/sport consumers.
Yep, plays right into the SOS plan to “make this the most publicized sports case ever” or whatever the wording was.
May 31st, 2008 at 12:18 am
The premier superstar in the game, out to prove he can do it without another superstar.
Celtics in 5.
One superstar ain’t gonna cut it. Celtics will be bringing the D.
May 31st, 2008 at 12:40 am
I’d rather stick needles in my eyes than watch this series. Gangbangers, rapists, carpetbaggers, cheaters, millionaires who couldn’t pass the WASL, blackmailers, moratoriums on drafting African-Americans who went to a U.S. college in the first round (thank you Mr. Schultz) the NBA is fantastically screwed up!
May 31st, 2008 at 12:53 am
Hooray for Ray!!! He will have to be up to the challenge against Kobe and the Lakers. Ray, Garnett, Pierce, Rondo, and supporting cast will need to all be on their “A” games to take the series in 7 at home in Boston. That’s the good thing for Boston -they do have Home Court advantage. We will hopefully get some Pub, too, in this series, especially with Ray coming from Seattle to Boston.
May 31st, 2008 at 12:54 am
“I’d rather stick needles in my eyes than watch this series”
Gimme a call, let me know where you live, I’ll be happy to help you.
I’m pulling for the Celts. But if they lose one game in the first 2, they are in deep hole going into LA for three games straight.
I’m still not sold on them being on the road.
May 31st, 2008 at 12:59 am
BTW did anyone see this?
http://www.nba.com/draft2008/overview/sea.html
the NBA official draft site breaks down each team’s draft needs.
One section is opinion “From the media”
they quoted the Oklahoman
what a joke, they are still the SEATTLE SUPERSONICS you fk-heads
May 31st, 2008 at 2:57 am
That’s pretty disgusting that they’d have the Oklahoman doing the quotes from the media. That’s just terrible.
It’s not the OKC Sonics and it never will be. Even if they manage to steal our team. The Sonics will always be the Seattle Super Sonics.
And right now there’s a lot going for us keeping the team here.
The Celtics vs Lakers finals should be a good one. I was surprised the Western and Eastern Conference finals were won so easily by the top teams.
This series could go either way really. The Celtics have the home court advantage but the Lakers seemed to be slightly favored.
The Celtics did sweep the season series 2 - 0, but the last game they played against the Lakers was December 30th of last year.
It should be very interesting. I’m definitely pulling for the Celtics. Mainly because of Ray Allen, but also because of KG who is probably even more deserving of a ring than Ray.
Although neither city lacks sports glory. With Boston’s dominant play in football and baseball. And the Lakers 3-peat at the start of this decade.
Although Boston fans have had plenty to cheer about in other sports. The Celtics haven’t won the championship since 1986 (I was only 2 years old). Although if they do win, that’s #17 and by far the most of any franchise.
I’m still rooting for the Celtics, because in the end there are more players on that team that I think deserve to win a title before they retire.
Good luck to both teams and hopefully in a few years the Seattle Super Sonics will be competing for their 2nd NBA title.
May 31st, 2008 at 5:30 am
Weird seeing those old Lakers-Celtics highlights with Magic, Kareem, Worthy, Bird, McHale, Parish… the last time they met in the Finals, in 1987, the Lakers swept the Sonics in the Western Conf finals. That was the year they upset Dallas in the first round and played games at HecEd. Sonics had the big 3 of Chambers, Ellis and X, Fast Eddie Johnson, and a rookie guard named Nate McMilllan. But the Lakers were the Showtime Lakers, and I remember sitting high up behind the basket at the Coliseum (still good seats, actually) with a high school buddy and watching the Cooper-Magic-Worthy fast break run circles around the Supes in Game 4 that ended their season. As much as I hated the Lakers, it was definitely amazing basketball to watch.
Should be a good Finals, and we’ll all be watching the court developments at the same time… crazy.
May 31st, 2008 at 6:20 am
lemonverbena,
What I remember most about that ‘87 Conf Finals is The Supes losing the first 3 Games by a total of 4 points. I also remember to this day watching The Today Show Fall of ‘86 and hearing Red Auerbach say the worst team in the league would be Seattle.
Folk’s had Litle Fans they could put in front of their face with Red’s Mug on it. That was a fun season.
May 31st, 2008 at 6:52 am
Wasn’t game 4 the one were we were up by 30 points and blew it? Ahhhhh, the heartbreak of losing that game. I still thought we had a chance when we were crushing them in the first half. Man I HATE the Lakers. They are the equivilent of The New York Yankees In basketball to me. Go Ray and KG, although I should cheer for LA cause whoever I cheer for ALWAYS loses… LOL
May 31st, 2008 at 7:30 am
Actually i think it was game 3.
May 31st, 2008 at 7:50 am
OT Alert:
Did anyone else hear about OJ Mayo? A new report today said that an American Express card was used to purchase thousands of dollars of stuff for OJ. The worst part about it, is that the funds came directly from people who thought they were donating to a charity for sickel cell anemia. When really they were footing the bill for OJ to live the high life.
Tragic.
May 31st, 2008 at 8:10 am
Quoting the damn Oklahoman on the NBA.com Sonics draft needs makes me want to puke. The two lovers Davey and Clay-Clay are such complete crap. I’d love the chance to suckerpunch both those guys. Has their ever been two people you despise more than these two clowns?
Bennett was some Okie meathead who married into money. Newsflash Clay: It doesn’t matter how much money your wife has. You’re still a lying piece of trailer trash.
And Stern was probably the nerdy kid that everyone picked on at the playground. Nobody ever wanted him for the pick-up basketball games, so he vowed to one day get back at all of them. He goes to law school, becomes a lawyer, and eventually is named commissioner of the NBA. Now he gets his kicks by personally destroying professional basketball. What a steaming piece of crap.
Okay, I feel better now. Tomorrow is the first day of June. The trial is getting close. The draft is coming up. The Schultz case is looming, and hopefully spells doom for the Brokeback buddies. I can’t wait!!!
GO SUPES!!!
May 31st, 2008 at 8:34 am
“Quoting the damn Oklahoman on the NBA.com Sonics draft needs makes me want to puke.”
True, but on the other hand, look at the lack of commentary from David Stern and the NBA throughout the recent weeks. Hopefully, this is a sign that they don’t want to bring themselves any further into this now that things are going into such a legal arena.
Remember the legal brief of the NBA. i remember the sentiment being that in the end they would throw the PBC to the wolves if need be. Maybe I am reading too far into things of recent weeks and the NBA’s lack of activity in this current affair, but we may very well see Stern starting to can it.
It really wouldn’t surprise me. In a battle of public information and media propaganda these guys probably always win. But they knew just as well that if the whole mess got to court it was not good for them and would in fact end some of their rhetoric.
So let’s just look at things from that perspective. The first trial is only 2 weeks away, and I really don’t foresee anything that is too threatenig to this case from the PBC camp.
If the NBA holds suit, then they will probably keep shut about the Sonics for reason listed above….as well as the fact that David Stern is getting his dream matchup. If he puts too much attention on the Sonics/Seattle/OKC/PBC he is going to be messing with his ratings and going to anger a few owners who want their teams in the limelight.
Clay on the other hand is probably going to try whatever he can to make something happen with the down time we have from now till the 16th.
Guys….DONT LET ANYTHING GET YOU DOWN. C’mon, this next few weeks are going to be interesting…or at least I am expecting it to be that way. I am sure we are going to hear talks of buyouts, raised offers, disparaging comments from the 4th Reich……so let’s just stay focused and keep one another up. We have to be a family of Supes fans and a successful organization right about now. Let’s keep it up….have we really fought this hard for this long to let Clay Bennett and his goombas send us scattered like a house of cards…..
I sure hope not.
May 31st, 2008 at 8:40 am
Oh yeah, I forgot about the 2-3-2 format. I’ll revise my prediction to Celtics in 6.
May 31st, 2008 at 8:51 am
Lakers in 5. I haven’t seen enough from this Celtic team to really think they can 1. stop Kobe or 2. Provide an answer from their side of things in the form of Big Ticket, th Truth, or Ray Ray. Gasol/Kobe/Odom just too much…not to mention that supporting cast. Lakers in 5.
May 31st, 2008 at 8:52 am
having said all that…I want to see Lakers in 7.
May 31st, 2008 at 9:05 am
Lakers and Celtics . . . two teams built by gutting the league’s patsies. Look at the collective records of their trading partners (Seattle, Minnesota, Memphis).
The difference between the Lakers and the Celtics and the other NBA elite teams is that the other teams had to trade value for their top market players. The Lakers and the Celtics found patsies willing to trade for dregs.
May 31st, 2008 at 9:10 am
The Lakers will split in Boston, take 2 of 3 in LA, then get Game 7 back in Boston.
May 31st, 2008 at 9:18 am
Celtics in 6, the home court advantage will be very important, especially with a 2-3-2 format.
Off topic : SOS still needs money ? With a dollar that weak I should be able to give you something.
May 31st, 2008 at 9:34 am
Stern wont let the media say a word about the SEATTLE SONICS lawsuit, and the sheep in the media will follow blindly as always! Celtics in 6! Pierce Finals MVP!
May 31st, 2008 at 9:47 am
“the NBA official draft site breaks down each team’s draft needs.
One section is opinion “From the media”
they quoted the Oklahoman
what a joke, they are still the SEATTLE SUPERSONICS you fk-heads”
Why is anyone claiming to be a Sonics fan paying any attention to the NBA? Damn, how much crap are you going to take before you wake up? The NBA hates you, is robbing you, and you buy its product and propaganda. Ugh…
Until the Sonics are ours again, this league does not exist in my home.
May 31st, 2008 at 9:53 am
“Stern wont let the media say a word about the SEATTLE SONICS lawsuit, and the sheep in the media will follow blindly as always! Celtics in 6! Pierce Finals MVP!”
In my opinion this works to our favor. That means that Clay-boy has to go it alone for the next little bit. Outside of the offers that may be given to the Mayor’s office, I doubt you will see a great deal of propaganda that really makes any real dents in our efforts. As long as we don’t freak out about what money Bennett is trying to throw at the City, we should be fine.
If anything guys, this “dream” Finals is taking David Stern out of the equation. It is now down to us and the PBC. True, the Finals will be over by the time the Schultz case started…but without Davey runnin his yapper and a Lease case win, we are going to have a lot of momentum by the time Stern can fire up the little Demons that sit on his shoulder and tell him what to do.
May 31st, 2008 at 10:28 am
Nobody will every be able to get me to not think that David Stern orchestrated the KG and Gasol trades with this exact Finals in mind. These weren’t just lopsided trades, they were horrific. Besides the TWolves getting Jefferson, everything else that the Lakers and Celts had to give up was trash. And I wouldn’t for a second think that Clay Clay helping the cause by sending Ray to Boston didn’t earn him a few extra brownie points with Sterno.
On a different topic. Seeing how bad Stern wants nobody to hear anything about Seattle or the lawsuits. How bad ass would it be to see a couple guys decked out in SOS gear and maybe get a sign or two on national tv during the finals? Come on. Somebody out there has to have the $ needed to pull off a stunt. Just imagine the ABC announcers trying to ignore such a thing.
May 31st, 2008 at 10:34 am
“Until the Sonics are ours again, this league does not exist in my home.”
I agree. I’ve actually been quite enjoying the NHL playoffs.
Seriously. Playoff hockey is great.
May 31st, 2008 at 10:40 am
Whether we keep our team or not, as long as David “Kiss my ring” Stern is in power, I am anti-NBA. In the case we lose our team, the league is dead to me, plain and simple. But if we do keep it, I’m still against the league. In that I hope our renegade bunch sticks it to the rest of Sterns lackys. VIA SEATTLE!!!
May 31st, 2008 at 10:52 am
How is the our story going to be publicized during the finals? It doesn’t seem like anyone outside of seattle cares.
May 31st, 2008 at 10:56 am
There has been talk that Stern was using Seattle as an example of what happens if you don’t jump fast n high enough for his arena / revenue desires to strike fear in other markets.
But what is happening in the wake of the attempted relocation? In Sacramento they are in a position of quietly, politely asking for a favor and a long way off from getting it. I don’t see panic or rush to do more than they really want to do.
And now in Milwaukee Stern concedes a new arena is a ways off and he basically just hoping something happens eventually.
http://www.jsonline.com/story/index.aspx?id=756461
Long time efforts to get the next arena, still getting nowhere.
I see no evidence yet that Seattle hardball has or will achieve much for him in terms of leverage elsewhere.
It looks more like a reactive favor and on net so far not particularly strategically helpful. I think more than ever before other markets are likely to protect themselves and make sober decisions that are good for them. NBA “partnership” has too often meant mainly good for them. Cities should take the clue that the NBA is in the end dependent on the cities.
Stern’s behavior in the other markets is in contradiction to how he played it here out of weakness, out of an inability to use the same card he played here at least at the moment. He can’t afford to start a second fire and have it wipe up into a national firestorm. One fire every half decade was the max and probably did help in the past. But times may have changed. The buttons may have been punched too much.
May 31st, 2008 at 11:29 am
Great Article from Milwaukee, sounds like Stern is being told to be very careful what to say about arena situations based on the mess in Seattle. Stern appears relaxed and not concerned in Seattle which is a great front for him to put on. He knows he will get to be the hero of all this if he can get the owners to agree on expansion or get another francshise to move to OKC or Seattle!! Stern is just Stern!!
May 31st, 2008 at 11:35 am
Looks like Aubrey’s Company is having no fun in W. Virginia. Interesting to read the NewsOk comment board as well.
http://newsok.com/article/3250052
May 31st, 2008 at 11:46 am
Does it not just seem way too logical, rational, & sensible for the finals to begin tomorrow?
Anyone know when they begin?
May 31st, 2008 at 11:53 am
They start on Thursday, June 5th. Seems like an unnecessarily long gap to me.
May 31st, 2008 at 11:57 am
The gap is ok, cuz it likely means the finals will carry into the Sonics trial. Stern would prefer the finals be over before the trial which likely won’t happen unless their is a sweep. With such a historic finals set which will sky rocket ratings it may force Stern’s hand to broker a settlement to keep the negativity out of the finals and the NBA!
May 31st, 2008 at 12:01 pm
Here is the NBA Finals Schedule!
http://www.nba.com/schedules/index.html?month=6
May 31st, 2008 at 12:03 pm
Was it really shocking this guy has been in the WEEDfield???????
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/images/06/29/noah_clicks.jpg
May 31st, 2008 at 12:06 pm
T says….
“How is the our story going to be publicized during the finals? It doesn’t seem like anyone outside of seattle cares.”
Good question and I don’t know the answer. I’d like to think we can get some media attention but I don’t know how.
I agree that basically no one really cares outside Seattle - The National media rarely asks Stern about this & likely have been told to back-off.
May 31st, 2008 at 12:09 pm
This year’s finals not withstanding . . . elite teams are generally built around a top-of-the-line point guard and a big power man who consistently puts up 20-10. Add one more above average player and two strong role players and you can compete.
That said, is building around Durant and Green the best strategy?
If it were possible to trade Durant for Rose and Green plus the #4 pick to either Maimi or Minnesota for Beasley or Al Jefferson, would you do it?
Add to Rose and Beasley (or Jefferson) one high priced free agent perimeter player Andre Igodala (sp?) (or wait to see what is available in next years free agent market).
I really have no idea if this is a move toward a winning formula . . . but how’s this for a tag-line
SAVE THESE ROSE-BEASLEY LED SONICS
May 31st, 2008 at 12:14 pm
I don’t thnink Rose will become good enough to be an all star, and definately not ROY or MVP material. Beasley? Maybe but I would not sell the farm to get those 2 players.
May 31st, 2008 at 12:14 pm
Question for SOS leaders or anyone who thinks they know….
Is SOS planning anything specific or intentional during the NBA Finals to generate some publicity about the SOS cause?
May 31st, 2008 at 12:32 pm
D_G, maybe the rules favor Durant, Green, type players. Zones are getting better at shutting of pg’s in the half-court, and doubling in the paint.
The no hand rule allows a taller player to move off the dribble while facing up, zones cut off drives forcing players to be tall enough, and athletic enough, to pull up and shoot mid-range shots. Melo, t-mac, Durant, pp, etc, have good pull up shots from 20 on in, off the dribble.
I think this also shows up in the stronger pg’s that can get a shot off under contact and pressed becoming more popular.
May 31st, 2008 at 12:49 pm
Assuming in some order Beasely/Rose/Mayo all are drafted in the first 3 picks….
Is Bayless the guy for Presti at #4?
How good do you all think Bayless will be?
Will he be an all-star someday?
May 31st, 2008 at 1:09 pm
The duo of Bayless and Durant reminds me of the Iverson and Carmelo duo. Bayless has mentioned repeatedly that he’s a scoring point guard. You can judge whether that’s a good thing or a bad thing.
May 31st, 2008 at 1:10 pm
I kind of feel like taking Bayless over Mayo will be sort of like McHale trading Roy for Foye…which was a huge mistake.
May 31st, 2008 at 1:34 pm
I feel the same way, Mantra. The draft is such a damn guessing game. All the projections and research can only get you so far. At the end of the day, you have to go with you gut on who will make the better pro player. At this point, I think Mayo will be a stronger NBA player than Bayless. I think he has an edge over Bayless in every category except quickness. Sure Bayless could end up being like Tony Parker, but at this point we just don’t know.
If I’m Presti, I take Mayo. I think he’s the safer pick.
But at this point, we’re at the mercy of what McHale does. Most draft boards have him taking Lopez, but I honestly don’t see that happening. Lopez’s stock is starting to slip a little. But Beasley’s stock is slipping a bit too. Who knows. Miami could take Mayo at #2. If that happens, does McHale take Beasley? I don’t know. June 26th is gonna be exciting. Or it could be frustrating as hell too. If somehow Presti takes Lopez at #4, I’m gonna curl up in fetal position and start crying.
May 31st, 2008 at 1:40 pm
I like Bayless a lot at #4. I would also trade for the 5th pick and draft Mayo or Love depending who Minnesota takes. Word is picks 5 and 6 are for sale and 13. trade up to 13 and grab Kufos.I like what I see on youtube of all four. Plus they can all shoot and we definitely need some shooters. In the 2nd round I like these guards:
J.R.Giddens
Marcellus Kemp
Bill Walker
Courtney Lee
Lester Hudson
Goran Dragic
Richard Roby
Bryce Taylor
Reggie Williams
May 31st, 2008 at 2:04 pm
Youtube videos are very misleading. If you watch Dajuan Wagner’s videos, he looks like the 2nd coming of Clyde Drexler. Well we all know how he turned out.
I think the first question you’ve got to ask yourself when looking at these prospects is, “how will they fare against men, not boys, in the NBA?”
Kufos plays too much like Andrea Bargnani for my tastes. Our center needs to be able to finish above the rim, be an intimidator on defense, and rebound with ferocity. Kufos does none of those things.
If Mayo goes #2 to Miami and Minnesota takes Beasley, then Bayless would be fine. I just don’t see any other prospects that are better at #4. Bayless could be ok if we don’t have any big men that demand touches but instead work to get 2nd chance points. That probably means we should unload Wilcox and draft a guy like Dorsey. On the other hand, that would look eerily similar to the team that is constructed in Denver (Bayless/Iverson, Durant/Melo, Dorsey/Camby).
May 31st, 2008 at 2:06 pm
Crow, You are absolutely, positively Right On IMO! Stern is getting more backlash from Seattle and elsewhere than he expected. I think he thought that we would be more passive and he would be able to make an example of Seattle to all the other cities in the NBA and continue his threatening behavior. But with Seattle causing some bad press and about to blow up much bigger in his face, he’s become “relaxed” and “patient” with the other cities and more “understanding” of their situations. He knows that the last thing he needs is another Seattle on his hands. It would Geometrically increase the pressure on him to step down or for an investigation into the “activities” of the NBA.
It’s interesting that the Milwaukee arena was built in 1988 and Stern is saying they can squeeze some more use out of it (years) and need to get more cash out of the current arena before they rebuild. Key Arena was built in 1995 and certainly could be a very suitable venue for years with a reworked lease more favorable to the Sonics. It wouldn’t be ideal, but it could be more than adequate. It’s ONLY David Stern (& his lackeys & a ‘consultant’), right, who has determined that Key Arena is inadequate as an NBA arena. Everyone else is just singing David’s song - they are justifying his decision.
He pressured Howard Schultz to get a new arena and Howard didn’t want to do it himself and he couldn’t get any public funds from the legislature and with mounting pressure from Stern, he decided that this was no fun anymore and he decided to sell the team. And David just happened to know someone who would be a good buyer for the Sonics. What if David Stern started increasing the pressure on Howard years ago in order to get him to sell the Sonics so he could move the team and use it as an example. Who knows? David may have seen Howard as a “weak” owner who he could manipulate easily. Not as easily as Clay, though, because Clay enjoys doing David’s bidding. He relishes it as evidenced from the love letters.
I think David Stern is a little scared right now. He wants to prevent the “Seattle situation” from gaining National traction. He cannot afford to piss off another city, another community, or another team right now. He may be too arrogant to be scared, but he’s at least being careful. He’s trying to manipulate this situation to make sure that it turns out the way he wants it. Things are getting good now and we need to take advantage of it. It’s probably time for another S.O.S. meeting.
May 31st, 2008 at 2:22 pm
I’ts nice to finally have video highlights to check out before the draft. I’ve waited years for that privelege. I agree that video can be misleading but it can also provide a lot more insight into your decision. You could watch a player his whole career before the draft and still misread him. Pro scouts do it all the time. My own track record for spotting talent in the draft has been pretty good in the past. By the way Menace, you did not comment on Love at #5.
May 31st, 2008 at 2:28 pm
Oops…..I meant Mantra.
May 31st, 2008 at 2:43 pm
The first comment had me rolling.
May 31st, 2008 at 3:00 pm
I heard from a close Zona follower that he didn’t think that highly of Bayless, in fact rated him 39th best draft prospect on his stat system. Didnt think he was a PG and wouldn’t pick him high.
On Milwaukee patience is easier to have as it is at least big enough in terms of seats 18.700 if not in terms of desired modern revenue streams. Key arena “fails” on both tests according to Stern. Sacramento at 17,300 isn’t much bigger than Key but the much higher average ticket price and the parking revenues make it still quite viable.
Both Ackerly and the city get blamed for their poor in hindsight choices on the last rebuild of Key but really, since Stern demands final approval of these plans, he failed back then too when he approved this plan. A fair-minded person would acknowledge that that was a joint decision that did not succeed as well as hoped by all that should have been redressed cooperatively in due time and at a fair cost sharing.
May 31st, 2008 at 3:04 pm
I think I’ll find myself cheering for the Celtics, though I’m going with Lakers in 6 games. The Celtics squeaked by the Cavs only because of Lebron having no help, and a poor series save for Game 5 and his heroic game 7.
Lebron:
Game 7 14-29 45 points (L) 97-92
Game 6 9-23 32 points (W) 74-69
Game 5 12-25 35 points (L) 96-89
Game 4 7-20 21 points (W) 88-77
Game 3 5-16 21 points (W) 108-84
Game 2 6-21 21 points (L) 89-73
Game 1 2-18 12 points (L) 76-72
Kobe isn’t going to miss like Lebron’s game 1-3, plus he has a lot more help. Additionally, the Lakers are better defensively in the playoffs than were the Cavs, and better coached for that matter. The Celtics offense was awful during stretches against the Pistons due to crappy execution and floor spacing. Maybe they can fix that, but I doubt it, and even so, I still think the Lakers take the trophy.
Big Chris
May 31st, 2008 at 3:23 pm
“On Milwaukee patience is easier ”
On Milwaukee patience is easier because the owner is also the U.S. senator from the state. If he, Kohl, pressures his citizens allows the NBA to pressure his citizens, or sells the team to out-of-state ownership, or does anything to anger his fanbase he can kiss his political power good-bye.
Schultz, on the other hand, felt that he could sell the team and endure the local damage to his reputation. But, Doc, you have to be kidding when you say: “He [Stern] pressured Howard Schultz to get a new arena.” When a proponderance of evidence points in one direction, and a simple explanation fits, why bother creating some elaborate story?
Or if you want to create some elaborate story about how it all went down, why not make it truly interesting . . . something like Dick Cheney wanted to punish Seattle for voting for Kerry and reward OKC for supporting Bush (and the Swift Boaters) and so he pressured Stern (invent some story here about forced miliary service for son or releasing some untoward sex tape involving Stern, Larry Craig and Eliot Spitzer). Or be even a bit more creative. Why not make Martin Pang the goat of this story . . .
But for God sakes, please ignore the obvious explanation of what happened which is that Schultz miscalculated and got bored and angry losing money on a team that he turned into a loser and sought Stern’s help to bail him out.
May 31st, 2008 at 3:48 pm
D_G, sounds good … I thought that Dick Cheney must have been involved somehow - I just wasn’t sure how it all fit together
- thanks for clearing that up? So you don’t think that David Stern ever told Howard Schultz that he was going to have to get a new arena to replace the Key or risk losing the Sonics? Really?
May 31st, 2008 at 4:00 pm
Crow, I’m certainly glad that we’re not following your friend’s Stat board - who knows who we would be drafting then? Jerryd Bayless is the 39th best prospect in the draft? So he’s not a lottery pick, not even a first-rounder - he should go 9th in the 2nd round? Do they drink a lot at Arizona? Or maybe Bayless messed with the dude’s girlfriend and he’s trying to get back at him for it. Does the fact that every NBA scout and every beat writer, Coach, General Manager, etc. (that I know of) disagree with his assessment bother him at all?
Bayless’ stock has been rising from earlier in the season and most experts (certainly not all) project him to go before OJ Mayo now. In any case, it’s a close call. The lowest I saw him on anyone’s Mock Draft was 9th and that was an oddity. I saw one 7th, and all the rest were 6th or higher, with the most common prediction being 4th. So, did Jerryd Bayless mess with the guy’s girlfriend?
May 31st, 2008 at 4:15 pm
Here’s a good review of Jerryd Bayless’ Strengths and Weaknesses from Draft Express from January:
January 24, 2008
Another in an impressive line of freshman who are backing up the hype and then some, Jerryd Bayless has established himself as the go-to guy for Arizona (the team is 11-3 with him, and 1-3 without him), and in the process is likely putting himself in a situation to be drafted in a great position, already this year.
Physically, Bayless is an extremely impressive prospect. He is certainly stuck between the 1 and the 2 positions, but has solid size at 6-3, with outstanding athleticism on top of that. Bayless is an incredibly smooth player—quick, fluid, explosive, with a terrific first step, capable of elevating off his feet with ease—the entire package as far as athleticism is concerned. He has a somewhat slight frame, but is regardless a strong player for his age, seeming to have maximized himself from a physical perspective fairly well.
Offensively, Bayless can do it all and has basically everything you look for in a scoring guard. He’s an outstanding shooter first and foremost, showing terrific shooting mechanics, superb elevation creating separation from his defender, and all the confidence in the world to fire away in any situation imaginable. His release is a bit on the deliberate side, but this is a minor flaw that surely can be corrected in time.
Bayless can come off a screen, catch and shoot, or pull-up off the dribble equally well. He has great balance and core strength setting up for his jumper, and thus gets terrific results already this early in his career. He hits tough shots going left or right or fading away, even with a man in his feet, never getting flustered regardless of the situation.
More than just a shooter, though, Bayless is also a terrific shot-creator, with an aggressive slashing mentality and a real killer instinct making his way to the basket. He’s explosive enough with his first step or wicked crossover to just beat players off the dribble going left or right, but also possesses excellent ability to change gears, stop and go, and mix in hesitation moves to keep his defender off balance. He gets to the free throw line at a terrific rate, taking contact at the rim, but possibly lacking just a degree of size and strength to consistently finish those moves at the hoop. He often just prefers to find a glimmer of daylight in which he can get his shot off from mid-range, which is a very high percentage shot for him.
Standing somewhere around 6-3, NBA scouts will want to see some point guard skills out of Bayless, and indeed he sees a good amount of time at this position for Arizona. Bayless is not a selfish player, he can certainly find the open man and is pretty gifted passing while on the move, but it’s pretty clear at this point that he’s much more comfortable as a scorer than he is as a playmaker. He has a tendency to pound the ball in the half-court, over-dribbling excessively and making poor decisions when forced to play at a slower tempo. Arizona’s offense seems to lack some fluidity at times when he’s running the show, as Bayless has a tendency to create shots first and foremost for himself and then only look to create for others. He’s still a young player and certainly has time to develop, but right now it looks like he’d be much more comfortable playing a Monta Ellis type role in the pros (alongside another strong ball-handler) rather than as a Chauncey Billups style point guard.
Defensively, Bayless shows a lot of potential, not just with his tools, but with the commitment he’s displayed to competing on this end of the floor. He has excellent lateral quickness, clearly having received some solid coaching on this part of his game early on his career. His awareness isn’t always the best (looking a bit lost trying to find his man in transition for example), and he lacks some strength to get through screens defending the pick and roll at times—taking too wide an angle to avoid contact, but considering his age and huge offensive role on the team, it’s hard to nitpick too much here.
There is a caveat, though, as considering his size, he’d almost certainly be better off guarding point guards than shooting guards, which again brings up the fact that he’ll need to be drafted by the right team (with the right guard next to him) to really reach his full potential. He won’t be a perfect fit for everyone, but if he finds the right situation, Bayless has 20 point per game plus potential in the NBA if he continues to progress. The early indications we’re getting from sources close to the situation are that Bayless is leaning towards leaving Arizona at the end of this season. The reason for that being that with the dominant ball-handling Brandon Jennings coming in next year, he won’t have as much of a chance to develop his point guard skills. It seems like he could definitely use another year of experience before he’s ready to compete for high level minutes in the NBA, but if he’s indeed the lottery pick that most NBA people we’ve spoken to feel he is, then he probably has no choice but to leave.
May 31st, 2008 at 4:33 pm
You guys gotta take infact AZ(Bayless) didnt have shit other than Chase Budinger and he was inconsistant and not too aggressive to be “great”
May 31st, 2008 at 4:49 pm
Doc, while it is possible . . . it seems to me that it is more likely that Schultz was an unhappy owner who didn’t want to lose money and take the blame for delivering a losing team.
Makes a lot more sense to me that he initiated rather than Stern. In effect, Schultz was Stern’s boss not the other way around . . . or more to the point Stern worked to represent Schultz’s interests as Schultz defined them (as long as they do not conflict with the interests of the other 29 owners).
Stern now works to represent Bennett’s interests (as long as they do not conflict with the interests of the other 29 owners).
I guess we agree on one thing, which is that Stern has handled this situation abhorantly, and needs to go (for failing to recognize that the other 29 owners interests include keeping the fan base in established markets happy).
May 31st, 2008 at 4:55 pm
Doc:
I’ll be dancing in the street when Stern is dismissed in shame . . . but I think it is giving him far to much credit to think that he pulls all the strings for everything that happens in the NBA.
Stern’s power is limited to being able to make Iverson wear a tie and every once in a while, for laughs, leveling a hefty fine on Mark Cuban.
May 31st, 2008 at 5:08 pm
With the team that we have, we do need a lot to be competitive. We have a lot of nice pieces now that can be a great supporting cast around a couple studs. We have Nick Collison, Jeff Green (who has the potential to become an All-Star), Earl Watson, Mickael Gelabale (if we keep him), even Johan Petro to be the supporting cast for our All-Star of the future: Kevin Durant. We need another big-time scorer - a guy who can light it up and has the ability to be able to take over a game - not necessarily every game of course - I don’t think Michael Jordan, Kobe Bryant, or LeBron James is in this draft, but someone who can consistently put up 20 ppg and improve the level of play of Kevin and the rest of the team.
Who is the most likely to be able to fill that role from this draft? I think that the one person who could have stepped in and made a huge difference right away and would have thrilled K.D. no end would have been Michael Beasley. He can do it all - score from inside and outside, rebound, intimidate, etc., but the chances of him falling to #4 run from zero to non-existent. So, unless Presti is planning on moving up in the draft, he has to target the guy with the most upside who either is also the most ready now to contribute or among a handful of NBA-ready players. Although we need a lot of help on defense (24th in the NBA), we need more help on offense (30th in the NBA), and hopefully, we get both.
Who are the other players who could come into the NBA next year and be able to make a major contribution right away - even take over games at times? I don’t think that there’s very many - possibly a handful - and we can debate this: OJ Mayo has to be considered along with Jerryd Bayless and Eric Gordon. Even though he’s not as good a scorer or shooter as those three, I think you have to include Derrick Rose for his penetration and dishing and being the best true point guard available.
Is there anyone else? Among the big men, I think that Kevin Love could fit into that category, because he’s such a good outside shooter as well as inside, and a good rebounder and passer. I don’t know if Brook Lopez fits into that category, but I think he could. I mean, he is 7′0″ tall and he can shoot, and I think he will be able to muscle with NBA centers. Who knows? He could be the guy that would improve the Sonics the most, because he would add that height and skill in the middle that we don’t have now. There are other projects in the draft who may turn out real well, but is there anyone else who could step in and be the other “man” on the Sonics next year? I don’t know that any of these guys can. I just think that these 7 have the most going for them. Who’s most ready? Who fits our needs best?
May 31st, 2008 at 5:19 pm
We can’t take Eric Gordon. He would rather the Supes be in OKC than Washington.
What a clown ass sucker. I layed it to him on Seattle PI.
Like I said(The fan in me) hopes he fails for comments like that.
May 31st, 2008 at 5:22 pm
By pure stats, in at least 2 systems, Bayless and Mayo and Rose and Lopez don’t rate as high as by scouting. Love and Beasley hold up. I am not saying these rankings are right. I just wanted to mention there is debate if you willing to consider it.
The fact this guy watched his every game and agreed with what his stats said gave it some more weight to me. But I don’t know the guy and haven’t seen all the detail on this system. It looks decent but I don’t know if I’d go beyond that.
I don’t “know” Bayless. I just hear and see scattered things and I am not as high on him as others. For what that is worth. Not much.
May 31st, 2008 at 5:35 pm
The team does need another clutch scorer because Wilcox is probably not here much longer and I don’t see Green as up to #2 scorer role yet (with efficency and consistency).
But team also needs defense, defense, defense, 3 pt shooting, 3 point shooting, solid floor game and leadership. Post scoring needed too but really I’ll take any kind of efficient scoring.
Bayless offers 3 pt shooting.
So does Love.
How much either offer on the rest of the criteria hard to say.
Mayo and Lopez have promise on some of the criteria too.
Which Presti makes 1st priority is unknown but is critical for the choice.
May 31st, 2008 at 5:46 pm
Well I assume Love has NBA 3 pt range. if he didn’t knock them down at 35+% that would be a blow to his case.
Bayless attacked the basket in college having a very high rate of free throws. That would be an attraction.
May 31st, 2008 at 5:50 pm
If Gordon would rather be in OKC Bennett may pressure Presti to pick him for that very reason. If they move he is happy, If they don’t he is a potential problem.
May 31st, 2008 at 5:50 pm
Shawn Says:
“Off topic : SOS still needs money ? With a dollar that weak I should be able to give you something. ”
Hey Shawn, the short answer is YES! We have SOS merchandising to do, events to organize and pay for, and other activitites we will need support with. Please go to http://www.saveoursonics.org and donate!
Cheers,
Speed
May 31st, 2008 at 5:57 pm
JJ Says:
May 31st, 2008 at 12:14 pm
“Question for SOS leaders or anyone who thinks they know….
Is SOS planning anything specific or intentional during the NBA Finals to generate some publicity about the SOS cause?”
Hey JJ,
Nothing that I know of.
SOS will not do any strategizing on the web, and has a policy of not sharing specific action plans unless/until necessary. If you’re interested, come to our next volunteer meeting (not yet scheduled) to participate in strategy and volunteer to help out. Stay tuned here for meeting announcements.
May 31st, 2008 at 6:01 pm
D_G:
A goat? Sex stories, Elliot Spitzer, Dick Cheney? This one has the makings of a dramatic success!
We need to flesh this one out & send to Alexie for addition to the Stranger. Or to our compatriots at Seattle Weekly…
May 31st, 2008 at 6:43 pm
GP, thanks for sharing that NBA.com draft overview page. I have saved the page in case it changes. Going to email this to our local sports media. Just makes me sick seeing this kind of crap.
May 31st, 2008 at 6:52 pm
On Topic: I knew that Boston had won a boatload of championships from “the good old days” of Bill Russell, Bob Cousy, John Havlicek, Tom Heinsohn, Sam Jones, K.C. Jones, etc. During Bill Russell’s 13 years in the league, they won an unbelievable 11 championships, including 8 straight titles from 1959 to 1966, and 10 of 11 titles from 1959 to 1969. Then, of course there were the Larry Bird - Robert Parish - Kevin McHale - D.J. years where they added a few more to give them 16 Championships total. I also knew that the Lakers had quite a few titles, but I didn’t realize that they were that close to Boston’s record. They’ve won 14 NBA Championships - only 2 fewer than Boston and way ahead of Chicago’ 6 titles. That’s 30 titles between them - approx. half of the 61 titles since 1947.
I didn’t realize that the Lakers had won so many titles because I wasn’t taking into account the fact that they won 5 titles from 1949 to 1954 back when they were in Minneapolis and had George Mikan. That was before I started following the NBA around 1961-1962. I know they won with Elgin Baylor and Jerry West, but I don’t think they did until they added Wilt Chamberlain. Then the Magic Johnson, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, & James Worthy-led Lakers won 5 titles in the 80’s, starting in Magic’s rookie season one year after the Sonics won it all in 1979. And, of course they have the 3 recent titles with Shaq and Kobe. The Lakers have been in the Finals more than any other NBA team because besides winning 14 titles, they’ve been the runner-up 14 times, so this is their 29th appearance in the NBA Finals - again that’s essentially half of all the Championship series! That’s dominance.
May 31st, 2008 at 7:22 pm
Thanks Speedcat - I’d like to get to one of the future meetings if I can - schedule hassles usually make it difficult but I’ll look for the annoucement on the next one.
May 31st, 2008 at 7:41 pm
Can you imagine your team playing in the NBA Finals 29 times out of the 62 years since the league started? Basically, every other year your team is in the Championship series with the opportunity to win it all. And in half of their appearances (14 so far, with the opportunity to make it 15) they win it all. No wonder there are so many Lakers fans across the country.
May 31st, 2008 at 7:44 pm
For the same reasons, no wonder there are so many Laker haters across the country…
May 31st, 2008 at 7:55 pm
glennpdx Says:
May 31st, 2008 at 7:44 pm
“For the same reasons, no wonder there are so many Laker haters across the country… ”
Word! But you have to add in the Kobe factor there too, at least for today’s version.
May 31st, 2008 at 8:13 pm
“Wasn’t game 4 the one were we were up by 30 points and blew it?”
Actually it was game 4 of the ‘89 playoffs, not the ‘87 playoffs when the bottom fell out, resulting in yet another sweep. Then came the ‘95 and ‘98 embarrassments when we were the higher seed. Just how many times do you have to have your face rubbed into it by the same team?
May 31st, 2008 at 9:08 pm
Bayless is the consensus 4th pick and that speaks well of him. But I worry a bit about group-think. 20 pt scorer + very well known program = great player.
But not a great record. Though he was a freshman and program was in unusual situation regarding coaching. I think it hard to say how good.
I should clarify that Bayless was 39th on that guy’s stat system but that was for both key draft candidates and probably 2000+ college players.
On PER he is top 100 of all college players but low end of that.
Stats are only part of the evaluation.
May 31st, 2008 at 9:49 pm
Crow, I’m definitely willing to consider statistical rankings of all the potential draftees. Are they available somewhere online to look at? You said there were a couple of different systems around.
May 31st, 2008 at 9:59 pm
If we stay at #4, we know that Derrick Rose and Michael Beaseley will already be gone, along with either Brook Lopez or OJ Mayo, if the Mock Draft consensus is correct. Therefore the Sonics will get to choose among Kevin Love, Jerryd Bayless, either OJ Mayo or Brook Lopez, and Eric Gordon, and possibly DeAndre Jordan or anyone else that they think has the most upside. It would be really nice if we could get another lottery pick and add another one of these guys or maybe a true point guard like DJ Augustin. That would probably make K.D. pretty happy.
May 31st, 2008 at 10:18 pm
Here’s an interesting earlier review of Jerryd Bayless when this season started from Draft Express:
“November 25, 2007
Known as one of the top players in Arizona high school basketball history, Jerryd Bayless was known for his scoring ability throughout his prep career. Entering his freshman year at the University of Arizona, the talented guard brought high expectations to campus along with his talent. Bayless has been asked to be a full-time point guard for the Wildcats, a challenging proposition for a freshman used to be a primary scorer. Despite some unnecessary turnovers, the young guard has displayed promise at the point this season.
Offensively, Bayless needs to learn to pick apart the defense better, but has done a fairly mature job at choosing his spots to score. An elite athlete with a sweet jumper, he’s a constant threat to utilize a well developed offensive arsenal, whether it‘s a three pointer, mid-range jumper or a slashing move to the hoop. Though not a pass-first point guard, he also shows good instincts when looking for the open man off the dribble-drive. Like many freshman guards, Bayless tends over dribble at times, and sometimes force the ball into bad spots. He has bounced back from his mistakes, however, while showing the willingness to defer to teammates. Through four games so far, Bayless has averages of 18 points, 6 assists, and 5 rebounds per game.
Defensively, the freshman has lockdown potential for an NBA point guard. In a match-up against Virginia, he forced Sean Singletary into a number of ill-advised shots while cutting off his penetration into the paint. This type of defense is coveted by NBA teams, and the fact that it came from a college freshman in his second game is particularly impressive.
Physically, Bayless must continue to get stronger, but his physical tools can already be described as freakish. This becomes obvious when watching him blow by the opposing defense off the dribble and finishing against stronger, more physically developed players inside.
Few players in college basketball possess the natural ability to put the ball in the hoop like Jerryd Bayless, and it could be downright scary to think how good he could become with polished point guard skills.”
We all know this guy is an incredible scorer/shooter and extremely quick and draws a lot of fouls on his drives to the hoop, but what I really liked reading here was about his defensive prowess: “Defensively, the freshman has lockdown potential for an NBA point guard.” That’s nice to hear. He hasn’t been playing the point that long. He was a shooting guard all through high school. Arizona started his conversion to the point. Just think how much better he’ll be at the One in 2-3 years. He’s already a very good ball handler, and, a decent passer - at times an excellent passer. His passing, court vision, defense, and decision-making will all improve with time. I think he has an awful big upside. I’m not positive that it’s bigger than OJ Mayo’s, but I think that it could be. He isn’t as big as OJ or Eric Gordon, but he is quicker, and at least as good a shooter and finisher, if not better.
May 31st, 2008 at 10:26 pm
PER (and Win Score) for all first rounders on draftexpress’ mock
http://tinyurl.com/4wye7a
May 31st, 2008 at 10:32 pm
“Statman” ’s list see post #56 about half way down the page
http://pointguardu.com/cats/showthread.php?t=34084&page=6
May 31st, 2008 at 10:33 pm
Strength of schedule adjusted data
http://www.wagesofwins.com/2008NCAAProspectTable.html
May 31st, 2008 at 10:46 pm
And the supporting article.
http://dberri.wordpress.com/2008/05/27/the-2008-nba-draft-preview/
There you go Doc (and anyone else that wants that kind of stuff).
Hollinger probably comes out with his stat evaluation in a week or two. Low steals probably will be one of things he uses critical of Bayless but I will wait to see the full scoring.
May 31st, 2008 at 10:53 pm
Bayless might be a fine pro.
I raised some doubt on how good but that applies to almost everyone.
Few players are everything, especially coming in.
Defense is a lot about effort and either fitting into success or dysfunction.
Sonics are fortunate to pick 4th. Pretty good chance to get a good player, hopefully more than a role player. After 6 the risk goes up and the odds of getting more than a role player slide.
May 31st, 2008 at 10:54 pm
Whoever is in charge of the S.O.S. eBay store: you currently are showing NO items for sale. You should always have membership cards available for sale on 1-day, 3-day, 5-day sales, etc. plus you really should have a lot of other stuff for sale. You only have 14 feedbacks so far and you need 20 to get a store, so you have to sell more.
You’re short on feedback because several people bought more than one membership card (including myself), thinking that was helping, when it actually limits your feedback score because each person can only have one feedback counted, no matter how many auctions we bid on. You also should post frequent reminders here to go to your eBay listings and bid.
May 31st, 2008 at 11:07 pm
OK Crow, thanks. Now can you explain some of these Stats a little for those of us who aren’t used to looking at them, like PER (is that points per 40 mins. or something? or more complex, which I suspect it is), EFF (efficiency?), EFF/40, WS/40, Pos/g (I would assume that’s the number of possessions that the ball is actually in that player’s hands per game), etc. I guess I need an introductory course on some of this stuff and which stat or stats is (are) really the most meaningful? Are there data to back it up?
May 31st, 2008 at 11:53 pm
Lets just hope if we get Bayless he doesnt have an oz. of Steve Francis in him. Francis, although he is an athletic freak has no people skills. Aka isn’t a team player AT ALL. We don’t need an abomination like Steve “franchise”
What a pile of shit Steve Francis was. Note to Bayless, pass the g-d damn ball and make your teamates flourish around you.
June 1st, 2008 at 12:16 am
Crow, I saw some of the info on your links. The PER definitely seems to favor the big men over the guards. Michael Beasley came out as the best player in the draft with a 39.3 PER rating and Kevin Love came out as the second best player in the draft (which actually MAY be true) with a PER of 36.4. After that the PER gets pretty iffy. #3 player in the Draft according to PER is Aleks Maric (!), Nebraska’s center, with a 33.8, then Richard Hendrix, the PF from Alabama, with a 32.6, then Marreese Speights rounds out the top 5 with a PER of 32.3.
Some PER’s for better known players in the draft are a respectable 30.3 for Brook Lopez, a very good (for a guard) PER of 27.4 for Chris Douglas-Roberts of Memphis, but his much more touted and coveted running mate, Derrick Rose, only rates a 24.1 which is decent for a guard. All the other top college players in the draft (Lottery Picks or close) are worse than that, at least among guards. After Derrick Rose’s 24.1 score comes Jerryd Bayless at 23.7, D.J. Augustin at 23.4, Eric Gordon at 23.3, O.J. Mayo at 22.3, Anthony Randolph at 21.6, and Russell Westbrook at 19.4.
There are a number of other Stats to look at like WIN score and WINS Prediction. Stats are NOT everything, but they are interesting and should be taken into account. The statistical analysis on the Win Score Prediction was “Highly Pessimistic” for OJ Mayo and Eric Gordon for their NBA potential and only “Pessimistic” for Jerryd Bayless and Neutral for Derrick Rose and Brook Lopez, but “Highly Optimistic” for Michael Beasley and Kevin Love. Maybe the Sonics really should be looking at drafting Kevin Love and trading for a point guard, either via the draft or current players.
June 1st, 2008 at 12:34 am
Zendoc - I’ve forwarded your feedback on SOS store to the group. Let’s send that stuff by email instead of putting it out here.
Cheers
Speed
June 1st, 2008 at 1:05 am
Weird. SeaTimes top sports story for 1:05am today, 6/1/08 is this:
“NEW - 08:21 PM
NBA Playoffs | Ginobili leads Spurs to Game 3 win over Lakers”
That article is dated 5/25.
June 1st, 2008 at 1:19 am
So is the SeaTimes poster named “abrjam” someone involved with SOS?
June 1st, 2008 at 1:52 am
Yes that’s one of us (Adam). He’s our press guy / writer / etc.
June 1st, 2008 at 6:19 am
Damn! I’m very happy for Ray. What a turnaround for him within a year… he deserves it.
June 1st, 2008 at 7:24 am
Lets just hope if we get Bayless he doesnt have an oz. of Steve Francis in him. Francis, although he is an athletic freak has no people skills. Aka isn’t a team player AT ALL. We don’t need an abomination like Steve “franchise”
What a pile of shit Steve Francis was. Note to Bayless, pass the g-d damn ball and make your teamates flourish around you.
There are rumors that are saying he basically wants to play for the Knicks. Why would he single out that team?
On top of that, he refuses to schedule a workout with Miami. What’s up with that? Kind of sounds Steve Francis-esque to me.
June 1st, 2008 at 8:18 am
You might find this interesting from the Times forum regarding Bayless. The poster says he is an attorney and has given some analysis on the Times forum.
http://forums.seattletimes.nwsource.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=44&t=97812
June 1st, 2008 at 9:33 am
Doc, PER is ESPN’s John Hollinger’s comprehensive Player Efficiency Rating. The grizzly details are shown here http://www.basketball-reference.com/about/per.html
PER is probably the most cited formula for evaluating players. It is a linear weight system based on box-score stats and while complete on offense it lacks shot defense (though using “net PER from 82games.com you can get an estimate of player’s defense of their counterpart).
PER is influenced by position and role. Bigs still do get rewarded for higher FG% and more rebounds as you note. Better to compare guards to guards and bigs to bigs. Comparing across position remains highly debated.
PER isn’t perfect or the only word. It does not capture a player’s impacts on teammates (beyond assists) or recognize the “burden” or “boon” of weak/strong teammates. It doesn’t highlight clutch play or worry with consistency. But it is pace and minutes adjusted and PER is set against league average performance level of 15.
It is not adjusted for strength of schedule which in college is a pretty big deal. The scores in the prospect table are adjusted for strength of schedule and adjusted by position (using another berri formula known a s PAWS- position adjhusted win score).
PER has been criticized by some (especially Dave Berri the proponent of Win Score and the related Wins Produced) for rewarding scorers too much for taking (and making) more shots and not requiring efficient shooting enough and for not rewarding defensive rebounders enough. The reverse arguments get made against Berri’s formulas. For his work see http://dberri.wordpress.com/
“EFF” Efficiency is the simplest / oldest of linear weight formulas. The NBA still puts it out but it is not recommended.
There are other formulas out there.
This is a recent article on them
http://www.countthebasket.com/blog/
June 1st, 2008 at 9:37 am
Breaking up the post to bypass moderation (and the 1 link per post limit):
Doc, PER is ESPN’s John Hollinger’s comprehensive Player Efficiency Rating. The grizzly details are shown here http://www.basketball-reference.com/about/per.html
PER is probably the most cited formula for evaluating players. It is a linear weight system based on box-score stats and while complete on offense it lacks shot defense (though using “net PER from 82games.com you can get an estimate of player’s defense of their counterpart).
PER is influenced by position and role. Bigs still do get rewarded for higher FG% and more rebounds as you note. Better to compare guards to guards and bigs to bigs. Comparing across position remains highly debated.
PER isn’t perfect or the only word. It does not capture a player’s impacts on teammates (beyond assists) or recognize the “burden” or “boon” of weak/strong teammates. It doesn’t highlight clutch play or worry with consistency. But it is pace and minutes adjusted and PER is set against league average performance level of 15.
June 1st, 2008 at 9:41 am
It is not adjusted for strength of schedule which in college is a pretty big deal. The scores in the prospect table are adjusted for strength of schedule and adjusted by position (using another berri formula known a s PAWS- position adjusted win score).
PER has been criticized by some (especially Dave Berri the proponent of Win Score and the related Wins Produced) for rewarding scorers too much for taking (and making) more shots and not requiring efficient shooting enough and for not rewarding defensive rebounders enough. The reverse arguments get made against Berri’s formulas. For his work see http://dberri.wordpress.com/
June 1st, 2008 at 9:45 am
“EFF” Efficiency is the simplest / oldest of linear weight formulas. The NBA still puts it out but it is not recommended.
There are other formulas out there.
This is a recent article on them
http://www.countthebasket.com/blog/
Looking at more than one formula better than relying on one. Using direct observation and stats better than just one. But people will consider what they want, how they want. Lots of complexity, room for different styles / judgments.
June 1st, 2008 at 10:11 am
NBA Efficiency = Points + Rebounds + Steals + Assists + Blocked Shots - All Missed Shots - Turnovers
Game Score (a simpler approximation for PER)= Points + 0.4*Made Field Goals - 0.7*Field Goal Attempts - 0.4*Free Throws Missed + 0.7*Offensive Rebounds + 0.3*Defensive Rebounds + Steals + 0.7*Assists + 0.7*Blocked Shots - 0.4* Personal Fouls - Turnovers
June 1st, 2008 at 10:13 am
Win Score = PTS + REB + STL + ½*BLK + ½*AST
– FGA - ½*FTA – TO - ½*PF
June 1st, 2008 at 10:21 am
This is “BleedingGreenandGold”s post from the Seattle Times Sonics blog today which “Guess Who” referenced & gave the link to above:
“A good friend of mine works for the Clippers and was talking to Bayless at the Orlando workouts and asked him about going to Seattle.
“Not with Bennett as owner, I don’t want to play in Oklahoma City - I’d play in Seattle, but I’ll never set foot in Oklahoma.”
And I guess NBA officials were telling some of the prospects that could be playing in Seattle to NOT discuss the situation with the media.
This has got to tell you something right?”
Yes, “BleedingGreen” I would say that tells us something. Of course, we were counting on interference from the NBA and as much suppression of First Amendment Rights as they can get away with. That is an interesting quote from Jerryd Bayless and I expect it echoes a lot of the players’ sentiments. Someone should probably tell Jerryd that the Sonics will be here at least 2 years and most likely a lot longer.
June 1st, 2008 at 10:31 am
Thanks Crow for the Stats Education. I wonder which one really pans out the best as far as predicting NBA success. Do you have the PER & WIN scores for recent draftees whose NBA success (or lack of it) we know?
I saw that the combined PER scores are actually better for the top 2 College performers this year (Beasley and Love) than for the top 2 Draftees last year (Oden and Durant). That’s interesting and we’ll have to see how that pans out. I think that Kevin Love is a lot more talented than a lot of people are giving him credit for. I would bet that his stock will rise and he will be a top 5 pick.
June 1st, 2008 at 10:41 am
The average for Win Score for bigs in the NBA is more than 50% higher than perimeter players. From getting rebounds, shooting a higher FG% or more free throws and sometimes blocks.
Same type of thing happening to some extent with PER.
Bigs rate higher on average and that fits with old-school conventional wisdom.
You need both of course. And rating by position is more “fair”- as a measure of positional talent. But perimeter stars may need to be more exceptional to add as much value as “good” or star bigs. At least on boxscore based metrics.
But journeyman bigs can rebound too and add the occasional putback. Journeyman bigs have an easier time looking decent on PER or Win Score.
Gotta have enough rebounding but somebody has to score. Efficiently.
Adding defense to the evaluation is important since it is half the game.
+/- data isn’t readily available for college guys. Another obstacle in trying to understand the quality of college players.
It is a puzzle of many pieces.
Sonics need a lot so several kinds of #4 will “work”. You want the best but that depends on the design and who stays and goes. Mainly they need to avoid a bust. Time will tell on this draft class- and last.
June 1st, 2008 at 10:43 am
I think Jerryd Bayless’ quotes would make really good signs for our next rally (maybe the courthouse):
“I’d play in Seattle, but I’ll never set foot in Oklahoma” - Jerryd Bayless
and
When asked about going to the Sonics, Jerryd Bayless replied: “Not with Bennett as owner.”
Those could be rallying cries. We would need to get it on the record from one of the SportsWriters or Sportscasters. It’s a great quote, but, unfortunately, it may mean that we will have no chance of seeing Jerryd Bayless in Green and Gold. If Bennett sees it, he may order Presti not to draft Jerryd Bayless.
If the Sonics draft Eric Gordon (probably a huge mistake), we’ll know that’s what happened because he apparently is on record as saying that he would rather play in Oklahoma than Seattle. To each their own, I guess. It’s closer to home for him. Maybe he’s just trying to butter up Clay and get drafted higher than he should.
June 1st, 2008 at 10:45 am
thanks for sharing the news RE Bayless. wonder if we can get this to the press…
June 1st, 2008 at 10:49 am
One look at college vs rookie year performance
http://dberri.wordpress.com/2008/05/17/2007-nba-draft-preview-one-year-later/
June 1st, 2008 at 10:50 am
Hollinger’s projections for last draft class
http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=72515
June 1st, 2008 at 11:03 am
Hollinger rated Durant #1 but Green #14.
Was Presti right or Hollinger on Green?
By first year Hollinger, but Green and Presti will get til year 3 or 4.
In first year Green put up 1O pts 5 rebs in 28 minutes but the average SF scored at a 10% higher rate due to better FG%, grabbed the same amount of boards and had 15% less turnovers. Green will have to rise to get to average or worth #4.
June 1st, 2008 at 11:07 am
If Bayless is “banned from consideration” by the Sonics, I would love to see them take Kevin Love. The Love would be in Seattle - we would have the “Love” instead of the “Glove”. It’s not just his name that I love. He could really improve the team the most. A front line of Kevin Love, Nick Collison, and Jeff Green would be formidable and bring Chris Wilcox (if he stays) off the bench along with Johan Petro and maybe Roy Hibbert.
Love and Collison are similar type of players. They know how to play the game. They have high basketball IQ’s. They are good defenders and rebounders. Love is a much better shooter and a better passer. They are both 6′9″ to 6′10″ - not too shabby, and I think that they would compliment each other well and make each other better (and their teammates). They would be interchangeable pieces on the team. They could play high post - low post or double low post, and I don’t think that other teams could push us around. They’re both strong - Kevin’s probably stronger. We could use our 7-footers for backups. It actually could make us very formidable with K.D. and Jeff Green on the wings and either Earl Watson or DJ Augustin or another point guard running the show.
Does anyone else like this idea? I really don’t think that we could go wrong drafting Kevin Love. He probably has far less chance of NOT living up to his potential than any of the guards, including Derrick Rose. I think there’s far less risk with him and a very nice upside.
June 1st, 2008 at 11:14 am
My two cents: Of course we should try to trade up with Miami or Chicago with picks, etc. But, I dont see us acheiving it.
Miami is interested in OJ Mayo. IF he is still on board at #4, and the Miami Heat have selected Beasley, Sonics should offer Miami the #4 (OJ Mayo) and Jeff Green for Beasley.
It may seem like a lot to give up, but Beasley is a monster! The best player in the draft hands down! We cant afford another pick that is questionable. And the connection with Durant is unreal.
I think we should be thinking about how to move up in this draft.
June 1st, 2008 at 11:15 am
Speedcat, As is eluded to in the Times, this is an “off the record” quote told to a friend who leaked it. For us to take it to the press I think we have to get it on the record. Elise Woodward has already interviewed Bayless once. I think she would be willing to do it again and get the exact quote from him and maybe ask him if he would refuse to sign with the Sonics if he was drafted by them or what? Also he should be apprised of the situation here and that we have a good chance of keeping the team in Seattle indefinitely.
June 1st, 2008 at 11:34 am
Part of the college to NBA translation problem is the difference in size / quality of opponents of course. Some college players have great stats against mainly or entirely college players who will never get near the NBA.
Some 6-8 and 6-9 guys get their stats playing the post in college as a featured player but will face a far tougher time doing so in NBA or be told to not even try except on some putbacks.
Not every guard is going to get to dominate the ball.
Part of whether Bayless would succeed here or not would be what he would be asked to do.
Be like Monta Ellis, mostly at SG? He seems suited for that kind of role. Be a Tony Parker style PG (more playmaking for others, a lot more defense)? That would be nice but I don’t know how realistic but he is just getting started.
There is a hint Love may measure out close to
6′ 10 in shoes. I don’t know is he becomes a star but I feel pretty good that he will be at least Collison level useful. Probably better at #2,3 big playing off either a #1 post scorer or a big defensive anchor or both.
June 1st, 2008 at 11:37 am
“Sonics should offer Miami the #4 (OJ Mayo) and Jeff Green for Beasley.”
You are insane.
June 1st, 2008 at 11:41 am
“Love and Collison are similar type of players. They know how to play the game.”
So why would we want two of them? Not knocking either player at all. But Nick is a good role player who comes off the bench……you don’t use a top 5 pick on a bench/role player.
June 1st, 2008 at 11:48 am
I just ran across something that made me sick on a blog called “BumpShack”
They posted their 2008 Mock Draft and this is how the guy listed the Seattle Sonics’ picks:
http://tinyurl.com/45sag5
“4. Oklahoma City Sonics - (PG) JERRYD BAYLESS - Arizona - The best point guard after Rose in the draft and a perfect fit to play alongside Kevin Durant for the Seattle [scratched out] Oklahoma City Sonics.”
“24. Oklahoma City Sonics - (SG) BILL WALKER - Kansas State - Walker is worth a shot a minute when he is on the floor and if its a big game he is good for missing a shot per minute. Walker is athletic, can score, and is starting to show that he is fully healed from his bum operated knee. He would be a good fit for the Sonics, especially being in Oklahoma City which is in the heart of Big 12 country.”
I think we need to give this guy a little feedback, don’t you? I don’t know if he’s trying to be cute or he’s from OKC or what, but that is completely inappropriate.
You don’t have to swear at him, but you should let him know how you feel about his comments, his sensitivity to Seattle, and his knowledge of what’s happening.
June 1st, 2008 at 11:59 am
Menace and SonicsFaninSpain, I would strongly consider that trade and would probably do it, although I would hate to give up Jeff Green so early in the going. If they love Mayo so much but want more value for him, I would trade the #4 pick, Chris Wilcox, and some 2nd rounders or a future first rounder for Michael Beasley in a heartbeat because Beasley is special. His potential is off the charts higher than Jeff Green, though, and OJ Mayo is more of a risk, so I would consider that as well.
If there is a way to get Michael Beasley, we have to look at what it would take and pair him up with K.D. and we will have our 2 “main men” for years to come.
June 1st, 2008 at 12:06 pm
This is the reply that I wrote to “BumpShack” and the comment is currently in moderation, so we’ll see if he posts it or not. Since I don’t know who the guy is, I was very polite. If he’s not from OKC, I think he’s from somewhere in Big 12 Country:
Bumpshack, It’s not really funny or cute to call the Seattle Sonics the Oklahoma City Sonics. First of all, it’s inaccurate: the team is the Seattle Sonics or the Seattle SuperSonics and never will be the OKC Sonics. If you’re not keeping up with the news, the Sonics are playing in Seattle this season, NOT OKC, and most likely the following season (2009-2010) for sure. We’ll find out in about 3 weeks at the trial. Beyond that Howard Schultz is suing Clay Bennett and PBC for fraud, misrepresentation, and breech of contract in a suit that he has a better than 50-50 shot of winning and getting the team taken away from Clay’s group.
Unless you live in OKC, almost no one is rooting for the Sonics to be uprooted from Seattle and taken away by an act of fraud and collusion on the part of David Stern and the NBA. You are being very insensitive to the people of Seattle and the Pacific Northwest and alienating them. IF Clay ends up being successful in his underhanded endeavors and stealing the Sonics, they won’t be the Sonics anyway. They’re voting on names (prematurely) and the team will probably be called the Outlaws, possibly the Rustlers, or the Robber Barons. - “ZenDoc”
June 1st, 2008 at 12:08 pm
“For us to take it to the press I think we have to get it on the record. Elise Woodward has already interviewed Bayless once. I think she would be willing to do it again and get the exact quote from him and maybe ask him if he would refuse to sign with the Sonics if he was drafted by them or what?”
Not going to happen. That sortof talk by a rookie is almost career suicide. He can say whatever he wants off the record (and I honestly don’t believe he said that), but to a reporter, it’s a different story. He’ll give the normal “I’m just so lucky to be in the position to be drafted” canned answer.
June 1st, 2008 at 12:13 pm
“If there is a way to get Michael Beasley, we have to look at what it would take and pair him up with K.D. and we will have our 2 “main men” for years to come.”
I’m all for that if you don’t give up a core piece of the team. Right now Green is a big part of the future. No way they are trading that and essentially trading #5 and a #4 for Beasley. Thats way too much to give up.
If you can make that trade without giving up Green more power to us. Then instead of 2 “main men”……you have 3 (See Boston….see LA)
June 1st, 2008 at 12:14 pm
Menace, I would take another Nick Collison in a heartbeat. He’s an essential piece of a playoff contender. He’s really more than a role player. He does better as a starter than off the bench. And the thing about Kevin Love is that, although he has similarities to Nick, he is much higher rated. He’s a much better shooter - actually a really good 3-point shooter, which is pretty unique and very difficult to block. And you’ve heard about his passing - most remarkable for his full-court outlet passes - farther than anyone else around. He has a lot of talent and he’s probably the next best thing to Michael Beasley.
June 1st, 2008 at 1:03 pm
Role players are good if the initial talent is there. We don’t have that yet. Its backwards to go after role players first. We need tier 1 talent above all right now.
Again…..nothing wrong with Nick at all. He put up good numbers off the bench of one of the worst teams in the league last year. For most of the year……he wasn’t even the starter on one of the worst teams in the L. I like NCs contribution to the overall team……but I think many people overglorify his contributions. He can easily be replaced. He is a slightly better Mark Madsen. A fundamentally sound smart player who plays below the rim. He is a role player.
To your points:
Does Love have NBA range? He was a decent “college” 3 pt shooter. So was Shawn Respert. Sure he throws great outlet passes…….but if he isn’t throwing them to Durant (possibly Green)…….what does that do? A half court quick outlet to Luke Ridnour or Damien Wilkens doesn’t do much.
Like Collison I think he was a great college player. But his upside is extremely limited due to his size and the way he plays the game. I think this makes him a role player in the NBA.
June 1st, 2008 at 1:04 pm
ZenDoc, You would be the only person I’ve ever heard say that Love is the next best thing in the draft after Beasley. Love might become a Nick Collison type player (with a better jumpshot), but that should actually be a reason in itself that you wouldn’t take him with the 4th pick. A fourth pick should land you a better player than Nick Collison, period. And having two or more of the same type of player at the same position is one of the main problems that has plagued this team over recent years.
June 1st, 2008 at 1:15 pm
“Love might become a Nick Collison type player (with a better jumpshot), but that should actually be a reason in itself that you wouldn’t take him with the 4th pick.”
exactly
June 1st, 2008 at 1:20 pm
“And the thing about Kevin Love is that, although he has similarities to Nick, he is much higher rated. He’s a much better shooter - actually a really good 3-point shooter, which is pretty unique and very difficult to block. And you’ve heard about his passing - most remarkable for his full-court outlet passes - farther than anyone else around. He has a lot of talent and he’s probably the next best thing to Michael Beasley.”–ZenDoc
There aren’t that many similarities between Love and Nick Collison other than both are white guys. Why does this happen every year in draft comparisons? White guys get compared to other white guys, and any player with dread locks gets compared to the dude on Cleveland with dreads. It’s shallow analysis IMO.
Love throws ridiculous outlet passes, and if he’d stayed in school he would have dominated the tournament once or twice. Love is the first big man in years to actually grab rebounds and throw accurage outlet passes while he is still in the air. All the same, I think that Brook Lopez is a better big man pick at number 4. Lopez is stronger than advertized, and he can split the double team and take the ball to the rim. He’s been in school for a few years now, and he’ll be more consistent as a rookie than Love will IMO. Lopez completely dominated the Pac-10 tourney, and he’s a no risk pick as a pro IMO. He’ll play smart from day one….just like Horton did this year (taking nothing away from our boy, KD). Love will also be a special player if you are willing to wait about 2-3 years…
June 1st, 2008 at 1:58 pm
“Sure he throws great outlet passes…….but if he isn’t throwing them to Durant (possibly Green)…….what does that do? A half court quick outlet to Luke Ridnour or Damien Wilkens doesn’t do much.”–Menace.
Ridnour and Wilkens aren’t the future of the team. There’s no guarantee that they’ll even be on the roster in a few years. No matter who we pick next year, we’ll be playing a 3 man game sometimes.
June 1st, 2008 at 2:04 pm
Very well could happen. But at this point…..Love is only 6′9 and plays below the rim. Besides Elton Brand are there any other successful small below the rim playing PFs in the game today?
June 1st, 2008 at 2:15 pm
“Sonics should offer Miami the #4 (OJ Mayo) and Jeff Green for Beasley.”
Menace, thanks for the reaction, at least it was honest.
I am just speculating that Miami won’t give up #2 unless there is some bold offer, and if I was Miami, Chris Wilcox and picks isn’t going to cut it. I would rather have one potetial all star in Beasley than J. Green whose ceiling is lower, and a risky OJ Mayo or Bayless.
We have to think realistically about what our assets are. I think we tend to overvalue the talent that we have on our team. Picks are an incentive but they can only go so far. If you decide as I have that Beasley is the absolute bomb, then we need to sacrifice something to have him. Right now J. Green has a high value, he’s in the spotlight with K. Durant, but after a few more lean years in Seattle, his value may go down, as I believe there are many in the league with similar talent levels - now may be the best time to trade him, and receive a player that can truly push us to the next level
June 1st, 2008 at 2:57 pm
James B.,
You could be right about Brook Lopez being a better pick than Kevin Love for a big man if there’s no way that we can get Michael Beasley. I’m not totally convinced. And you’re right, actually, there isn’t a tremendous amount of similarity between Love and Collison other than they’re both a little over 6′9″ and under 6′10″, they both play below the rim, they’re both white as you say (good call), they are both fundamentally sound ball players, they are both good rebounders - but I’d give the edge to Nick at this point, they’re both team players I’d say, and I’m not sure what else. Kevin can knock down his shots more effectively, especially from long range and he’s got the incredible arm for throwing the long bomb downcourt. We’d be much better with both of them playing, whether one of them was a 6th man or not.
Btw, Horton was the one who heard the Who and hatched the egg. I think that you meant Al Horford of the Hawks or maybe Al Thornton of the Clippers, unless you meant a combination of the two, which would make your point just as well I think.
June 1st, 2008 at 3:00 pm
“Love is only 6′9 and plays below the rim. Besides Elton Brand are there any other successful small below the rim playing PFs in the game today?”–Menace.
How many times have you really seen him play, Menace? His game is pretty complete IMO. He’s broken a backboard at the high school level. He uses the glass well, throws great outlet passes, hit’s threes. Plus, he’s got plenty of muscle mass to back people down at the pro level. He’d be our most physical player on the team immediately IMO. I don’t think his rookie season will be as good as Brook Lopez’s, but, in 3 years he’ll be a better player. I think Carlos Boozer is a better comparison than Brand. Love is physical, uses the glass well, and can shoot the hook shot well. He’ll be tough to defend even as a pro IMO.
He gets compared to Bill Walton for his outlet passes, but, his game goes beyond that.
June 1st, 2008 at 3:24 pm
Yes, I meant Horford, Zendoc. My mistake.
—————————————————
The only way that you can “give the edge to Collison” over Kevin Love at this point is because Kevin Love has not played professional ball yet. I like Collison, and he was an exceptional college player as well. He’s had some impressive 20-20 games(points, rebounds) as a pro, but, his ceiling as a player is much lower than Kevin Love’s IMO. Love has more tools to work with; I don’t consider him to be as much of an overachiever as Collison.
Love is more physical than Collison. I think he just suffers from the perception that because he’s a white guy he must not be that good. Sometimes he has to take some pump fakes and play below the rim and try to draw fouls, but, that’s just because he’s a smart player. Other times, he uses the glass and has a higher release on his hook shots. Yes, you could claim that he has a higher body fat percentage than some NBA players, but, he uses his mass pretty well too. In the short term Brook Lopez will be better, but, in the long term I think Love would be a fine pick.
Somebody in the draft will regret passing on Love IMO. He’s just a solid player like Mayo and Lopez. I don’t think you can go wrong on any of those three. I’m skeptical about Bayless, but, I admit that I haven’t watched him nearly as much.
June 1st, 2008 at 3:56 pm
“How many times have you really seen him play, Menace? His game is pretty complete IMO.”
I don’t disagree. I think he is solid in every facet of the game. He has great fundamentals. I watched him play once in high school and was very impressed. I watched him both times he played the cougs this year…..and he was sick.
I just don’t think a below the rim game translates in the NBA as an undersized PF. Boozer dunks a lot. I don’t consider him a btr type player.
He will be a good NBA player. But he won’t be a guy you build around……..he is a perfect glue guy that you add to a team who already has a solid core.
June 1st, 2008 at 4:02 pm
I’m fine with taking Love……..just not at 4.
June 1st, 2008 at 4:08 pm
Kevin Love is definitely not top 5 material…
June 1st, 2008 at 4:26 pm
Ill cry if we take Kevin Love.
We already have Kevin Love on our team. And there is no way in hell Love will get the ridiculous calls he got with UCLA playing in Seattle.
June 1st, 2008 at 4:45 pm
On Kevin Love…..
I predict he will be much better than Collison & have a very positive career as a starting Power Forward. He is not the typical flyer/leaper guy - but he is going to be very good in the NBA. Much better shooter and passer than Collison and played great in the clutch all year as a freshman at UCLA.
Part of the fun of pre-draft discussions…. K. Love is going to make some NBA team very glad they have him.
June 1st, 2008 at 4:48 pm
Also… Draft thoughts…
1. I trade the #4 and alot for the #1 pick to get Besely or rose - BUT - No way I move Jeff Green in such a deal.
2. Did Bayless really say that about not wanting to play for Clay or OKC?
3. Is anybody excited about B. Lopez?
June 1st, 2008 at 4:51 pm
if the #4 pick is the price for Love, then count me Love-less. I am sure Golden State would send Cromag up here if you want a smallish pf that shoots a good outside shot. The comparison to Collison is ok, I just do not see Love being able to play any center, just as I do not see Love sliding over to SF to get time from Green, so he is a PF that plays below the rim and shhot a nice jumper. You would have to deal Wilcox, you might be able to deal Wilcox and the late 1st rounder and move up, but not quite high enough to get some Love.
In the end, how much better is Love than another player that could actually fill a starting role need at PG? That’s a big no.
June 1st, 2008 at 4:57 pm
Ever watch Nick Collison in warm ups? He hits practically every jumper. Hardly ever misses. Then game time comes and its clang city.
Either way…….I tend not to get excited about jump shooting PFs.
Chad Ford’s predraft camp review:
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/draft2008/columns/story?columnist=ford_chad&page=Orlandostockwatch080531
June 1st, 2008 at 6:16 pm
I predict he will be much better than Collison & have a very positive career as a starting Power Forward. He is not the typical flyer/leaper guy - but he is going to be very good in the NBA. Much better shooter and passer than Collison and played great in the clutch all year as a freshman at UCLA.
Part of the fun of pre-draft discussions…. K. Love is going to make some NBA team very glad they have him.
- No he wont…id be fine with taking kevin love with our 2nd 1st round pick…but that might be a bit of a reach for us…
June 1st, 2008 at 6:18 pm
Just as important, Love shot the ball very well in the workouts. At times, he looked like a guard out there. Love also did well in the strength training, bench-pressing the 185-pound bar 18 times.
- Sounds just like Austin Coschere
June 1st, 2008 at 7:11 pm
Sorry if this is a repeat for anyone, but interesting info on the draft choices & comments from Bayless:
http://www.azstarnet.com/sports/241644
June 1st, 2008 at 7:18 pm
Collison does not have Love’s jumper so he has to go inside more, gets blocked more, still goes back inside. He will bang because he has to on offense and knows how on an NBA level.
Love will not go inside as much because he doesn’t have to as much so I have no idea how he will deal with playing agains teams like the Jazz and Spurs thoughout his career.
I do not know if he can live one way on one end, and the other way on the defensive end.
I stated it above too, myk, it really does sound like Cromag. In the right situation that would be great, but looking at the Pacers over the years I saw a guy lose his spot to a more dominating inside player every time. I just do not want to draft a guy that has a career path like that, picked at #4. Maybe getting nba conditioning would change some of that, tough to say.
Gounded guys can play, GP was grounded after the Utah caveman crushed his back, but he was an unusual guy.
We need the best pg we can get for the future, that is how I would prefer that pick to go.
June 1st, 2008 at 7:41 pm
To be honest, I do not think I have ever heard of any other lottery pick applauded for their outlet passes. Have you? I like love. He will be a shorter version of Brad Miller. If you are willing to spend a #4 on Brad Miller then you will be fine with Love.
June 1st, 2008 at 8:03 pm
We should have another draft topic. This one is getting old.
Hop to it.
June 1st, 2008 at 8:49 pm
OK Jeff Green /others - New topics - take your pick:
What do you think will happen to….
1. Robert Swift > Will the Sonics sign him or let him go?
2. Damien Wilkins > Will he opt out of his last 2 years or stick around?
3. The Sonics have these players with expiring contracts…
A. D. Marshall at 5.9 million
B. Adrian Griffin at 1.7 million
3. C.Wilcox at 6.75 million
Is there any team out there with a high quality player with a big contract - that we think they would unload for expiring contracts so they can rebuild sooner - who the Sonics would want?
What can/should Presti do with these 3 guys? Wilcox is young enough with some talent to have value as a player. Marshall & Griffin are useless as players but have expiring contracts
Any thoughts on any of this?
June 1st, 2008 at 9:02 pm
Chris Kaman is due 43 million over the next 4 years - would you trade expiring contracts for him to the Clips if Sterling wanted to unload salary?
June 1st, 2008 at 9:07 pm
Trade Idea….
Sonics offer D. Marshall & Griffin - 2 lousy player with expiring contracts to Miami for M. Blount - a very mediocre/lousy player with 2 years on his contract.
Bad for Sonics - Good for Miami who get’s ride of Blounts last year.
If we do this to help Miami out would they swap the #2 pick for the #4 pick? If they would do this would you do it if you were Presti?
Take on more crappy salary from Blount for a year to move up in the draft? maybe throw in the #24 pick? Not??
Just tossing ideas out there.
June 1st, 2008 at 9:17 pm
Bucks are trying to rebuild - dump salary - need a #4…
Would you trade Wilcox and Griffin & our #24 & 1-2 of our 2nd round picks for Bobby Simmons & the Bucks #8 pick?
Simmons has 2 years left on this contract - Griffin & Wilcox have expiring contracts.
Why would Bucks do this? > To dump Simmons 2nd year of salary and get a chance to see if Wilcox can help them at the #4. Helps their salary cap space - especially next year.
Why would Sonics do it? > Taking on Simmons 2nd year is a bummer - but getting the #8 would be sweet.
My guess is the Bucks would want more for the #8 - but maybe the concept works and they try for something else to somehow get the #8 pick?
June 1st, 2008 at 10:36 pm
Lots of possibilities but I don’t see Sonics taking Simmons or Blount even to get draft consideration. If Simmons is healthy and somebody else wants him maybe Seattle could help in a 3 way trade.
June 2nd, 2008 at 9:35 am
“Love will not go inside as much because he doesn’t have to as much so I have no idea how he will deal with playing agains teams like the Jazz and Spurs thoughout his career.
I do not know if he can live one way on one end, and the other way on the defensive end.”–Baker.
What are you talking about, dude? Love lives on the inside. Yes, he can shoot the outside shot, but, he can bang on the inside as well. He’s a banger at about 275 lbs who happens to have an outside shot, but, he can also back people down on the inside.
June 3rd, 2008 at 1:09 am
Does Love have a mean streak at all? Could he back guys down and push them around a little and intimidate them like Danny Fortson used to do when he was interested in playing basketball. We certainly could use a Danny Fortson-type presence on the team - only with more talent. A guy who can really shoot and outlet and bang and board with the best of them would be a welcome addition to the team.
Danny used to use his big butt and the rest of his wide body to clear people out. He didn’t need to be taller than them and he didn’t need to outjump them. He got position everytime or he threw guys out of the way and got fouls called (a few too many times of course). So can Kevin Love provide that type of presence, too? The enforcer?