Step#1: NBA quality arena
Posted on Friday, July 4th, 2008 at 11:36 pm by Mr. Baker (thinking good thoughts for George Karl))
I do not care what goes in it, who buys a team, expansion or stolen, I do not care. I may never watch another NBA basketball game, absolutely not without a team here, that was the NBA’s choice, not mine. Greg Nickels caved, that’s his decision, not mine. Ron Sims caved before it was fashionable, and Christine Gregoire before him, that’s their decision, not mine.
What I can draw from this experience is that those people were lead by the pressure of others that passes as leadership when they are caving to your pressure.
Another lesson for me in this is that my opinion means very little. David Stern’s opinion means just as much. He and I are dependent on the opinion of the people that decide all this: the franchise owners.
Steve Ballmer says a rebuilt Key Arena will work for him and will provide enough revenue for the league. He can buy a team for this
market and Stern will support his efforts.
Bennett said that a rebuilt Key Arena would not work for him and Stern supported him in his efforts.
Howard Schultz said a rebuilt Key Arena would work for him and Stern supported him in his efforts.
For those of you thinking that Stern is being inconsistent, you are looking at this backward. He has, and will, support the team owners. He is consistent in that regard, that is what the owners pay him to do.
The fact of the matter is that if you want to have a say in the franchise part of this then you are going to have to buy one. May the force be with you.
My concern is a bit more civic. As long as the City of Seattle insists on being involved in real estate, then they will compete with long shots, like B2, for revenue generating tenants. B2 has been dependent on free to them public land, that isn’t free in any sense of the word. If they can figure out a way to get a large plot of land, a basketball team and a hockey team, while creating a competing venue to Key Arena, and do it without public land or money, more power to you.
The reality is that most NBA teams are not worthy of a new arena, not a 500 million dollar palace. But, if you can provide a an arena that performs at least at average of other arenas at the cost of 300 million, then you are getting closer to reality. When I say “you” provide, I mean Steve Ballmer. He is providing 150 million of that rebuild. He is buying a team, he is the one with the opinion that causes others to cave, or switch positions on Key Arena’s viability. He says, though Mr. Griffin, through the caving of every Washington State politician, the flip-flop of David Stern, that a the public portion of the Key Arena rebuild will be covered by. . . the public.
The public has involved too many people that had power, but were not effected. When the State and County “leadership” failed, again, last February the mayor of Seattle was asked in the context of a larger conversation about city generated revenue and the flexibility to retain that money, the mayor indicated that he would prefer to just keep the money generated in Seattle. . . in Seattle.
It should be no surprised that the mayor will be proposing that the hotel and motel tax collected in Seattle, that is generating more revenue than projected, that the money beyond the projection get directed to Seattle Center. I have said here many times that it would be an easier sell to the state to point to something other than Key Arena for promoting to the state, and for the city to divert the money they would be spending on other parts of the Seattle Center site to Key Arena. Yes, they are proposing taking a dollar out of one pocket and put it into another, whatever it takes to keep Seattle tax revenue that is generated here in Seattle, I am for it.
The bottom line: citizens of Seattle, like me, will get a 300 million dollar rebuild to Key Arena at the cost of 150 million in tax money generated from hotel/motel taxes going into one pocket and drawn out from another, and revenue in and around Key Arena from NBA related activity.
Also, there would be a revenue stream turned toward the rest of Seattle Center.
Nickels is going to attempt to limit who gets to say what the money is used for by limiting where the revenue is generated at.
But House Finance Chairman Ross Hunter said the city is working on a new funding proposal that he thinks will be more palatable to lawmakers. The new plan relies on taxes collected entirely within the city, said Hunter, D-Medina.
Under past proposals, the city and Sonics were seeking legislative approval to tap King County taxes on car rentals and restaurants — money now being used to pay off the debt on Safeco Field.
After shooting down the latest proposal this year, Gregoire and legislative leaders agreed to set up a task force to examine a broader package of King County taxes that could pay for projects for the arts, education, youth sports, low-income housing, Puget Sound cleanup and a renovation of Husky Stadium — along with KeyArena.
That task force will hold its first meeting this month.
But Hunter, who has been briefed by Seattle officials, said the city is now eyeing a different pot of money.
For years the state has collected a hotel and motel tax to help pay off the debt on the Washington State Convention & Trade Center. Those collections exceed what is needed for the convention-center debt, Hunter said.
Hunter said the city’s plan is to shift a tiny portion of that money to Seattle Center for improvements not related to KeyArena. That presumably would free up other money for the arena renovation.
Such a shift would require legislative approval.
Alex Fryer, spokesman for the city, confirmed the city wants to tap the hotel and motel taxes.
Hunter, who has not supported previous proposals, said he thinks the new plan has a better chance in Olympia because it’s not just a “taxpayer subsidy for professional basketball.”
He said he thinks lawmakers will be more open to helping the city tackle an obvious financial problem — “an empty building that bleeds money.” - Seattle Times, 7/4/2008
At this point I don’t care if Steve Ballmer fills it with ice dancing 41 nights a year, I am looking for doubling my available dollars for rebuilding Key Arena.
I am also a newly big proponent of keeping the money generated in Seattle spent in Seattle.
July 5th, 2008 at 12:23 am
The new arena is certainly the next step. This article is a great start. I wonder if our old group can hold together and maintain unity and enthusiasm to get a new building and then a new team? Could we really have that type of impact?
I have a vision for how we get it done. It would be dynamic. I just need to get the pieces together before you all abandon me…
July 5th, 2008 at 12:34 am
I wont abandon this group. I will stick it out until we have a new arena and an NBA team back in Seattle. Any help I could do, just lemme know.
July 5th, 2008 at 12:35 am
I am in Europe on vacation and am keeping up with things piecemeal in very short bursts. It is funny that I am one who is an NBA fan who was raised in Seattle and the Sonics are/were my team. I thought my interest would not change much in the short run. Yet, today, I did not have the interest in keeping up with the FA market or even reading the articles and posts about the deal from the past couple of days.
I am hoping that the wink and nod deal is in the works, but am not so confident in our government to get a building done. In relation to that I think that a convention center included with the arena is a good idea. Yes, I know that was the Clay plan, but it makes sense for King County. Tacoma has the biggest convention center in the region. A large, quality convention center in Seattle would be great for the city and KC. A building like that would have an impact beyond sports fans.
Heading to Germany later today and Switzerland on Monday. Good distraction from the issues at hand.
July 5th, 2008 at 12:47 am
Brian, there are a variety of opinions about the NBA, the owners, players, etc, but few people will argue that we need an arena.
You be Captain Ballard, I’ll be Mr Bitter Lake (fitting, isn’t it), and let’s go through the critical path, let’s keep the three main components in front of everybody, two we can effect, the third is up to the guy with the money:
#1. an arena;
#2. somebody that is giving me 150 million dollars toward a 300 million dollar rebuild and going to buy a franchise;
#3. the rich guy puts a team, or teams, in the box.
Nobody is going to abandon you, they may abandon a vacuum. I am picking the topic I can put any energy toward, serve my selfish civic interests, and that’s the Seattle Center. People share compelling visions, and argue over the resulting details. There is way too much hand wringing on this site, and around the media revolving around items #2 and #3. Neither matters without #1. It’s the case now, was the case, will be the case without focus and leadership.
I understand that some people would love to have hockey, right now that is as popular as the NBA is to me. The bottom line is that the guy with the money, the 150 million dollars, is willing to pay for half of the rebuild and buy an NBA team. If some other billionaire were wanting to pay for half of a rebuild that would support the NBA and NHL at Seattle Center I would support that arena effort just as much. But that’s not the situation, I do not have to like it or dislike it, it’s a simple fact.
I do not even want to think about items #2 and #3, I do not have any control or meaningful input in those. The arena, the Seattle Center, my city, that’s my #1 problem to solve. The rest will sort itself out.
July 5th, 2008 at 12:50 am
How will that plan work with the anti-sports initative in Seattle? Do you trust Seattle pols to spend that money correctly? Also, what about hockey? This venue needs to be more than about the Sonics to increase support for it. It needs to be able to comepte with and beat out the Tacoma Dome for concerts and events. It also needs to be NHL ready. Sadly the current plan is just a re-do of the Ackerley bowl.
When this effort was doing everything as fast a possible to save the existing team, I didn’t care about the details. But now that Nickels sealed that fate and the team is gone, I think it is best we get an arena done fast and right. I do not want to go through this again in 12-15 years.
July 5th, 2008 at 12:52 am
Our wounds will heal and the bigger picture will become clear to all that the Sonics could be lost forever if we do not act. I for one want the opportunity to see the Sonics back in Seattle and refuse to lose the Sonics forever. David Stern is not the NBA, Clay Bennett is not the NBA, these bafoons will come and go but the game will still be the game we love. Basketball.
NO NOT IN OUR HOUSE!! We have come this far if we give up now it is all in vain. We have to look past the injustice, we need to lick our wounds and do what is right for the future, for that which we hold dear. Our favorite past time.. Seattle SuperSonics Basketball.
We will need to send a message to Olympia. Jobs must be lost for this…
July 5th, 2008 at 12:57 am
From yesterday’s Seattle Times:
Griffin said his group hasn’t “spent much time talking about the NHL, although we’ve spent some time.”
“For me, personally, I think it’s something worth looking at. Never say never.”
Well, let’s look at it now before we finance and build the arena.
July 5th, 2008 at 1:07 am
Well said Zonics. I see it the exact same way. Once the Green and Gold hits the hardwood, all will be forgotten. For most I think. There is naturally alot of denial in times of loss like these. Sports purists will get over it first, rabid fans will struggle for a while.
Again I dont mean to be insensitive in any way. I handle death the same way. I only see it as a new beginning. Life is way too short to dwell on sorrows. I like the almost instant forward thinking here. Very refreshing.
July 5th, 2008 at 1:11 am
I’ll support a new team (not sure about season tickets anymore though) but whatever happens here I want the bastards to pay somehow, someway, someday. Yes, I can fight for the future and hold a grudge at the same time.
July 5th, 2008 at 1:15 am
Let’s, let us, us being Ballmer and his money.
The public, the mayor, is doing backflips trying to secure 150 million, if Griffin wants more they are going to have to pay for it, and maybe that ends up making sense to them, maybe it doesn’t, I don’t really give a ratsass about that part. The timer is ticking, the NHL addition to the scope of work is up to them, Ballmer and his money.
Again, I do not care what HE puts in the box. I am working toward getting the public portion of 150 million committed to by those that cave to pressure.
#1, get an arena.
July 5th, 2008 at 1:35 am
I hope Durant and the rest of the Sonics continue to improve in OKC and then leave for greener pastures through free agency. The OKC Robbers main purpose in their short existence is to lose their owners as much money as possible and to demonstrate how the NBA’s business model is as broken as our hearts.
Keep up the good fight until the Sonics return home.
July 5th, 2008 at 1:37 am
#1, get the right arena. We blew it big time last time. Let’s not do it again. If Griffin wants to do it 100% his way, he should use 100% of his money. This is a public-private partnership.
In 1995, Key Arena, GM Place, and Rose Garden opened up. GM Place and Rose Garden have long lives ahead of them while Key Arena is dead. Let’s not repeat the mistakes of the past. We need an arena in Seattle for concerts and NHL too, and this is the time to push to get it right. Matt Griffin is very civic minded, I am sure something can be worked out.
July 5th, 2008 at 1:41 am
Seattle is the largest media market without an NBA team. OKC is the smallest media market with an NBA team.
The markets will dictate a lot. Players still get paid money.
July 5th, 2008 at 1:42 am
BTW, I have been talking with hockey fans who vow to fight our arena efforts unless it is made NHL abled. They are still angry with Ackerley for shutting out hockey the last time and they vow not to have it done again.
Big picture guys, an arena is more than NBA. Let’s have a big tent of supporters, not a small one.
July 5th, 2008 at 1:47 am
gm place has a long life that doesn’t involve the NBA, the rose garden doesn’t have NHL, could you at least pick an example of an arena that has both.
July 5th, 2008 at 1:51 am
GM Place and Rose Garden are perfectly capable of sustaining both NBA and NHL, while Key Arena can’t sustain either. The only thing keeping the NHL out of Portland is Paul Allen not interested in buying team. The only reason there is no longer NBA in Vancouver is a then weak Canadian dollar and an inept Grizzlies management that drafted stiffs in the lottery like Bryant Reeves and Stromile Swift.
July 5th, 2008 at 1:56 am
150 million is all you are going to see in public money, if the mullets want hockey they better get off their asses and open up their wallets and pay for it.
It isn’t as if you can rebuild Key Arena for 300 million for both sports, the scope of work would be more, costing more in private money. If that want they want they have about 4 months to get their shit together, or they will miss the boat again.
The clock is ticking and that added statement of work is up to them to champion.
July 5th, 2008 at 2:00 am
mr baker.after 5 years of watching various owners try and get funding for an arena,using public moneies and all failing because the politicians answer to the majority.i just hope that you and now others,as was clearly outlined in the article above,understand that the only way it will work is if it addresses the issues of all voters.not just the few sonic fans.
the phrasing of your of your post makes me wonder if the reality has sunk in yet?
July 5th, 2008 at 2:01 am
$150,000,000, THEY ARE PAYING FOR IT TOO!
July 5th, 2008 at 2:03 am
in the beginning I was against any team coming back to seattle expansion or a team moving here but now I feel like we need a new team here. I feel like the children of seatle need to know the joy of watching nba basketball like they way we all grew up watching. I would even be up for the nhl coming here..I will not give up and I hope any sonics fans give up either
July 5th, 2008 at 2:04 am
Just because they can does not mean they do.
There are a few arenas that could do really well, the Sprint Center in KC for example, still waiting for the NBA to return.
And I still do not care what goes in the box. There is a limited amount of public money, there is a limited amount of time, and I am not about to lose 150 million in private money because hockey fans want something, if they can get their act together in time, great, happy for them, that’s #3, that’s up to the billionaire. He knows the timeline.
July 5th, 2008 at 2:09 am
Dog owners are paying too. Both are angry and disorganized.
They need to act.
July 5th, 2008 at 2:12 am
Baker,
Hockey fans are part of that public $150,000,000 investment. A public arena has to be more than just the Sonics, or this proposal will die. How can we sell this to the non Sonics fans when this is just a suped up version of the Key Arena mistake from 13 years ago? A new arena needs to do things that the bigtime arenas in other cities can do, or we are wasting our time.
We have to do this right. We messed up big time last time, and are about to screw up again. We, the city, and potential ownership group have 6 months until January’s session in Olympia. We have the time to get this right. We are not under the gun like we were earlier this year.
July 5th, 2008 at 2:15 am
Just because they can does not mean they do.
There are a few arenas that could do really well, the Sprint Center in KC for example, still waiting for the NBA to return.
KC = small market half the size of Seattle. How about Pepsi Center in Denver, which is a smaller market than Seattle as an example.
July 5th, 2008 at 2:41 am
how about you tell Steve Ballmer what to do with his money, let me know how that turns out.
Right now we have an arena configured for basketball, with a rebuild that will cost about 300 million dollars, 150 million is coming from Steve Ballmer. Making that building able to support the NHL would cost more money, go ask Ballmer if that is what he wants to pay more money for, it all gets back to Steve Ballmer’s money.
As I wrote in my story is that the guy with the money is deciding what goes in the box.
Let him know that there are enough NHL fans that he could make a business case with his wallett, or more investors, and I would be very happy for you, and whoever else loves hockey, and basketball, and ice dancing, whatever, there is a limited window to get 150 million in public money, what happens after that is up to you and Steve Ballmer.
I like hockey, a little, my grandfather played club hockey in Seattle, but my opinion doesn’t mean much. If you want hockey then make the case to the private investors, that is the only way that is going to happen, and it just might.
But until then I need to secure 150 million in public taxing authority and I am saying it is for whatever Steve Ballmer says its for, if that 150 million is lumped in with a bunch of his money and maybe some other private money and an NHL arena pops out the other side, great, if it is just a viable NBA arena, great, if it is some combination, great.
Get the money.
July 5th, 2008 at 2:51 am
Baker, how far off till you think we get the Sonics back on the floor? Cleveland had to spend ‘96, ‘97, ‘98, ‘99 without the Browns, and they essentially had a stadium deal in place from day 1. You think we’ll have to wait that long? How long would a remodel take. Remodel + local ownership + new, reasonable lease = win.
July 5th, 2008 at 3:01 am
Right now we have an arena configured for basketball, with a rebuild that will cost about 300 million dollars, 150 million is coming from Steve Ballmer. Making that building able to support the NHL would cost more money, go ask Ballmer if that is what he wants to pay more money for, it all gets back to Steve Ballmer’s money.
Or maybe the public shouldn’t pay a dime. That is an option too, a darn likely one. This is about the public’s money too. If we are to invest another $150,000,000 14 years after Key Arena came into place, we better get it done right. A suped up version of inept Key Arena isn’t doing it or our efforts any good.
We need a broad coalition of sports fans, music fans, and civic minded folks to get on board. We need this to be more than a $150,000,000 gift to billionare NBA owners who have the means to pay for this themselves.
I am on your side Baker. I want it done. But right now I just don’t see it happening. Us diehards will fight for an NBA arena, but that is about it. To change the topic away from the broken NBA business model and other excuses for not spending public money, we need to make this more than about the NBA. If we are doing a suped up version of old Key Arena, we will lose
July 5th, 2008 at 3:04 am
Where is Kevin Calabro gonna work at now?
I predict ESPN as a top announcer.
July 5th, 2008 at 10:28 am
I say we build a first class arena and lure an NHL team to town. then when the NBA comes crawling back with a team from a failing 2nd tier city we tell them to piss off. I dont care to have anything to do with the NBA while stern is around.
July 5th, 2008 at 10:30 am
“and an inept Grizzlies management that drafted stiffs in the lottery like Bryant Reeves and Stromile Swift. ”
Right in line with Robert Swift, Petro and Sene. Our ‘Big Country’
trio. True franchise killers.
Walker and Sund should write a book entitled “How To Kill an NBA Franchise in 3 Easy Steps.” Or “Franchise Killing For Idiots”.
July 5th, 2008 at 10:34 am
“I have a vision for how we get it done. It would be dynamic. I just need to get the pieces together before you all abandon me…”
Brian, we aren’t going to abandon you, or Steve, or each other….we are just all hurt bro. I have only had one experience in my entire life where something hit me this hard. As my emotions begin to settle, I am willing to look at all options, but in the end it may very well take something amazing to make me change my stance on things. For the good of those who want another team, for the kids of the future who DESERVE Sonics basketball….I might be willing to help get things straightened out. However, right now, the likelihood of me ever actually embracing another team is incredibly up in the air at this point.
I also want something big enough to house an AFL team and an NHL team sometime in the future.
July 5th, 2008 at 10:40 am
BTW… how many years do you guys give OKC before the franchise is in trouble financially? I know Bennett and his group have deep pockets but with the cost of purchasing and relocating the team, plus breaking the lease here, they’ve already spent a TON of money. I think after a couple years, the excitement of an NBA team will wear off, and their attendance is gonna nose-dive. I’d say they’ll have trouble averaging more than 12,000 - 13,000 fans. Before too long, Clay-Clay will start whining and eventually realize he and his butt-pirate lover Stern were severely mistaken for thinking those Okies could support a team full-time.
No way in hell Durant’s agent allows him to resign down there in the dust bowl. Plus, good luck trying to sign big-time free agents Presti. You think any quality player is gonna want to play down there? In a few years, the NBA will sorely regret this decision to allow this team to be hi-jacked out of Seattle.
July 5th, 2008 at 10:41 am
I hope Durant and the rest of the Sonics continue to improve in OKC and then leave for greener pastures through free agency.
don’t you mean greener AND GOLDER pastures?
Don’t blame Ackerly for the Key not supporting the NHL. There’s one person to blame for that and it’s someone we should have experience blaming by now: David Stern. The KeyArena was built to NBA standards and they did not want the NHL coming and fighting for revenue.
If KeyArena could be renovated to include the NHL I’m not sure. I’ve heard from many sources that even with a renovation, the Key would NEVER be able to house the NHL. If it’s possible I’m behind it. If not, I’m not going to worry about it. I don’t understand why NHL fans would FIGHT an effort to get a new basketball team here. It would be better for them the more pro teams we have. That way they can say “we have the NBA, MLB, NFL and MLS. We can support pro teams in every sport. Now we need NHL.”
No offense to any NHL fans, but my priority is the NBA and the Sonics.
July 5th, 2008 at 10:41 am
I dont know how well a ‘just get the money and we’ll figure it out from there’ plan will work. It seems to me that people putting up money want to know exactly what it is for. Not maybe this or maybe that might pop out the other end. Would anyone put up tax money for an arena that has no plan yet?
I agree with Mr Baker that you need the money first, but you have to present some kind of plan to the people to get the money. Are the taxpayers just going to pay and put all thier trust that Ballmer will give them all what they want? Seems unlikely to me. This deal has to be done in a much more oragnized matter than just get the money, IMO.
July 5th, 2008 at 10:45 am
“BTW… how many years do you guys give OKC before the franchise is in trouble financially?”
Hard to tell, but if you read up on the NBA revenue sharing plan, they may never be in trouble.
July 5th, 2008 at 10:46 am
Brian, count me in the group that won’t abandon you and the fight to return NBA basketball to Seattle. They may have lied, schemed, and done whatever they could to steal our team, but I’ll be damned if we have to be stuck without basketball.
I was hurt, crushed, devastated by the events that transpired 3 long days ago, but I want back in the fight for a team. We don’t fight to get a team back, then we are just proving Stern’s point that this region doesn’t want basketball. Let’s show all of them, that even after they shit on us, we still banded together to get a team here. Not because they want a team here, but because we do. This is about us, and our passion for basketball…Sonics basketball!
July 5th, 2008 at 10:47 am
“BTW… how many years do you guys give OKC before the franchise is in trouble financially?”
If Stern steps in with support like he did with Sacto, they may never be in trouble.
July 5th, 2008 at 10:49 am
I put something in the last thread, but want to put it here for those who may have not seen it. It’s a disclaimer Clay put into his ticket request form. He obviously knows he’s not in the free and clear just yet. Here’s part of the disclaimer…
In addition, this request is solely to determine interest in tickets and the team will be under no obligation to play games in Oklahoma City in any particular season.
July 5th, 2008 at 10:50 am
Calabro,
There are NBA markets alot bigger than OKC that are in trouble. Revenue sharing doesn’t seem to be helping them.
July 5th, 2008 at 10:50 am
Well with this NHL talk, maybe step 1 should be to see if there are any interested parties in joining Ballmer to fund an arena, then get an NHL team in Seattle. John McCaw I think his name is, owned the Canucks a few years back, perhaps he would be interested if it were in his home state? There are a few other billionaires in town, thousands of millionaires, etc who could be very enticed. Perhaps the $300 million deal gets a $100 million boost by the NHL ownership group and you have a $400 million palace that can hold a greater amount of events per year, creating more revenue.
July 5th, 2008 at 11:02 am
This isn’t over. Hold together! I believe Clay would have done whatever it took to get his team to OKC. Including bleeding for 2 years. Out leaders have to act or else. Gregroire has to know this is chance to keep her place in office, because without action again on her part I’m moving straight ot Rossi.
Really want to know what your vision for getting done is Brian.
July 5th, 2008 at 11:03 am
Mr. Baker is unquestionably right. If Ballmer is putting up $150 mil, then it will be whatever he decides it will be. Ballmer will work with the political people to put together whatever they can jointly agree upon. If Ballmer can’t get it done, and if nobody else steps in to take Ballmer’s place, then it won’t get done at all.
I don’t think a $300 mil Key remodel is a good idea - it would be better to build a multi-purpose $500 mil facility. BUT a Key remodel is the cheapest way to get a venue acceptable to the NBA. Unless someone steps in with more private money, if it’s good enough for Ballmer, it’s good enough for us.
July 5th, 2008 at 11:20 am
There is one thing Clay was right about in his “pie in the sky” Renton arena.
Seattle needs a building that does more than just house the NBA. I think the only way anything works is to present it as MORE than just the home for the Sonics. It needs to be able to hold a Democratic National Convention. It needs to be a place Steve Ballmer can hold a big Microsoft Convention he would currently have to go elswhere to do. It needs to be able to hold a biotech convention for that burgeoning Seattle industry.
The fact that Spokane has more convention space than Seattle should mean something.
July 5th, 2008 at 11:21 am
Does anyone think that public funding will be approved without a confirmed team? I find that hard to believe.
July 5th, 2008 at 11:23 am
Kingdome, this is about the Seattle Center for me, the entire site, Key Arena is going to get a rebuild of some kind, no matter what, the “public money” is being generated in Seattle, half of it from event-centric charging, such as more for parking on game nights (no game, no game night). The other half of the “public” money from hotel/motel tax that is supported by hotel/motel owners. It is a foolish idea to think that those businesses would be willing to support a tax that impacts their business so Jene Godden and Nick Licata can drink white wine and not touch more new art.
The framing of this is very important, it is political, somebody (Guess Who?) mentioned forming a PAC. Not sure if I want to go there, but there is a clear need for a comprehensive coordinated media campaign.
I an sure the mayor, and Griffin, and People for Using other People’s Money on Self-Cleaning Toilets, bug media, will all have some level of messaging and framing that they will promote in order to have their idea be more competitive.
Saveoursonics should, contrary to Steve P’s comments, should have talking points. If you don’t like that, try calling them themes, put them in a priority, do not put bullet markers in front of each one, flesh-out each them with a short paragraph that is packed with supporting facts.
SaveourTotems should do the same thing.
Each of these steakeaters should swap ideas, figure out where they agree; then (stay with me here) identify in your theme sheet the items that another organisation supports (reference their press release or a person from the group); not every group will agree with every point and every tactic being used to effect a positive response.
At this point you end up with many voices identified as individual groups applying pressure to effect the best possible outcome.
Next month look closely at the political ads the will flow into your mail box, people and organizations are drawing ethos from other groups and individuals as endorsements in some way. They do it because it works, because it tells people through another group’s eyes that they are joining you in a narrow way to promote a shared idea, encouraging others to join them to promote there idea.
There is your free media consultation Saveoursonics, and SaveIurTotems (I am NOT kidding about using that name).
I am in an organization temporarily called SaveOurSeattleCenter, and inclusive group, bug tent, civic minded perspective. If Griffin’s group puts up a web site I may ask to volunteer to blog, or report on the site, if not I will do it here until Brian kicks me off. It is unlikely that my ideas are in conflict with his or Kingdome’s.
I will write up a position paper, loosely based on this thread, something simple that I can pound into the heads of spindancingdopesmokingfrankchoppsupporters.
My TRADEMARK phrase will be, “Doing nothing is a deal breaker”.
Believe it, or not, there are people that will actively work to make sure nothing happens.
BTW, this thread was currupted like Steve P’s thread. It was full of ad links at the end of the first paragraph, before the “more” tag line that shortens the story on the main site page, it was marked as draft, the allow pings and comments boxes were unchecked. I had to delete a bunch of links and click a few buttons and re-post this thread, using my iphone, it took a little while since I can not highlight and delete anything (I hope that is there in 2.0).
July 5th, 2008 at 11:29 am
The settlement was in the works for quite a while. The sticking point was Shultz and how to structure it for Mr Chopp, so he basiclly can’t say no. It wasn’t until he got full assurances from the NBA did he agree to an extension on his suit, but would not drop it.
It still sucks for the fans.
In two years when the marketing plan starts, for the NBA, and the NHL, Might take away the hurt but never the pain?
The NBA committed adultery, while I will enjoy their guilty pleasure I will never trust them again.
July 5th, 2008 at 11:32 am
For some reason my phone wants to use the word bug when I type big, see above. I will reset my dictionary.
July 5th, 2008 at 11:54 am
I think funding worded just like Ballmer’s commitment is very possible, even likely.
Here is an approved revenue stream drawn from and spent in Seattle on the rest of Seattle Center, excluding Key Arena. It is an oddly easy sell. What to do with the Fun Forrest portion, Center House, some of the meeting rooms, all that was going to be funded by the city and private contributions will be sold to the State and County to allow that to be funded from the hotel/motel taxes.
The money that the city was planning to use for that is replaced by the state, the city takes that city planned money out of one pocket and puts it in the Key Arena pocket. I saw this several months ago as the only politically acceptable way to get taxing authority (maybe they read here, likely it is just that obvious), political cover. Nobody at the state level would be authorizing funds for a sports arena. If Seattle then chooses to reach into its pocket to fund a sports arena then that is Seattle’s choice, they can say. Seattle can say that they then see the Seattle Center as including Key Arena and are getting money from the rest if the state to fund the other portion of the site, freeing up money otherwise spent on the center house problem on to Key Arena. City of Seattle can claim that Ballmer is paying for the sports portion and the city is paying for common areas and building structure they are responsible for as landlord (negating I-91).
July 5th, 2008 at 11:56 am
2 things make me nervous about this.
First - relying on Olympia for funding is going to be a very tough sell - especially with Chopp still weilding his power.
Second - getting back in bed with NBA/Stern on an NBA only facility. Did we not learn our lesson the first time? Why does this city always look for the easy way out?
IMO, NHL fans and NBA fans should unite in this fight. It will only help in the long run and will bring more people in willing to fight for the cause. It certainly worked when we got Qwest built and while it took a while to get a soccer team the fans of that sport were ultimately satisfied. Make no mistake, there are a lot hocky fans in this region - go attend a Silver Tips game or take a look at the US division of the WHL and see all the teams are in the NW and draw pretty well.
We should all be working together on this - not fighting each other. Whatever we do, let’s learn from the past. Ballmer and his group are obviously brilliant businessmen so I have faith they will think this thing through now that we have a pause.
July 5th, 2008 at 12:06 pm
If Rossi is elected, stop worrying about Chopp. Chopp will be forced to work with Rossi regardless of the Sonics issue to get stuff done. If god forbid voters in this state are stuck on stupid and Gregoire is elected, then there is no gurantee.
Our best shot in Olympia is with Rossi, which is why it is very important we help him get elected.
July 5th, 2008 at 12:08 pm
REVIVE OUR SONICS!!!
July 5th, 2008 at 12:09 pm
I’d like to see an arena built away from the center, perhaps in Bellevue or elsewhere… but then anything that hurts the mayor would bring great joy to me.
Currently, even with what I’ve heard of the potential Griz relocating to Seattle to be the most discussed issue among supposed powers that be, I’m not really interested in seeing David Stern take any more money from the Seattle market until most/all of the politicos that opposed or sold the KD Sonics have been removed from office. This starts with the lying mayor.
And seriously, how many more times can we upgrade and rename the Seattle Center’s arena? Let’s just build a new one elsewhere. As the lack of rioting the mayor’s office indicates, we are no NY, LA, Boston, or Chicago anywway, so Seattle might as well have a Palace at Auburn Hills-ish setup outside of the city.
July 5th, 2008 at 12:09 pm
I’d like to see an arena built away from the center, perhaps in Bellevue or elsewhere… but then anything that hurts the mayor would bring great joy to me.
Currently, even with what I’ve heard of the potential Griz relocating to Seattle to be the most discussed issue among supposed powers that be, I’m not really interested in seeing David Stern take any more money from the Seattle market until most/all of the politicos that opposed or sold the KD Sonics have been removed from office. This starts with the lying mayor.
And seriously, how many more times can we upgrade and rename the Seattle Center’s arena? Let’s just build a new one elsewhere. As the lack of rioting the mayor’s office indicates, we are no NY, LA, Boston, or Chicago anywway, so Seattle might as well have a Palace at Auburn Hills-ish setup outside of the city.
July 5th, 2008 at 12:10 pm
Just to be clearer about my one man temporary political committee, SaveOurSeattleCenter: I agree that we should have a bigger building for the bigger population, that will take more work, more money, more return on private investment, it may be MORE possible to do that now that the rebuild isn’t happening while the tenant is living in the house, this was a bit of a show stopper if I remember right. If that happened, great. It is more likely today than it was a week ago. If it doesn’t happen I will be unhappy, but still insist that something happen with Key Arena, even if it is something less, because, Doing Nothing is a Deal Breaker.
July 5th, 2008 at 12:13 pm
And Rossi will have to work with Chopp just as much, it’s not like he is going to be a dictator. I don’t think this arena will get any easier with Rossi as governor (and I will likely vote for him, for many reasons beyond the Sonics but that is the icing).
I think if we trust any of our political leaders on this issue we will be left out to lunch.
How much do you think someone would need to pay the school district for Memorial Stadium? That is where an arena needs to get built. Maybe Ballmer can offer to build them a new facility somewhere else in the city in exchange. It can’t cost that much to build a HS football stadium for the city teams to share.
July 5th, 2008 at 12:13 pm
can’t we build an NBA arena for 300 million or less?(a new arena in a new area…not a renovated Key)…
July 5th, 2008 at 12:15 pm
Agreed Baker - something around Seattle Center is ideal. Griffin has stated that’s the only reason he is really doing this.
July 5th, 2008 at 12:16 pm
Clint, first of all, welcome back. I would love to see a new building. One that would house the NBA, NHL, AFL, concerts, etc. However, SCI is willing to put money into KeyArena. I’m not about to turn down one of the richest men in the world’s money because I want something different than he does for the same thing. If Ballmer can be convinced to build a new arena, I’m all for it. But I don’t see the point in trying to convince him of that when he’s already committed to the Key. Time is of the essence, why add more steps that, while they would be nice, are essentially unnecessary?
July 5th, 2008 at 12:25 pm
Kingdome, I am tired of your pro-republican push for certain political candidates. I would like to remind you that another pro-sport Republican governor - George Bush. As a result we have:
1. Bush inherited a $2 trillion surplus, but will have added $3-4 trillion to the national debt.
2. Worst foreign policy disaster in US history (Iraq).
3. Worst military blunder in US history (nation building in Iraq).
4. Worst asleep-at-the-wheel event since Pearl Harbor (9/11).
5. Worst politicization of justice dept & attorney general ever.
6. On the verge of becoming the worst economy since 1929.
7. During Bush’s term, US dollar already devalued 50%.
Before we elect a governor based on their basketball policy, remember the words of Mayor Nickles, who said he would never sell out just before he sold out.
July 5th, 2008 at 12:30 pm
enjoy being bitter and vidictive Clint, Stern is not the first or last NBA commissioner, Nickels is not the first or last Mayor of Seattle, Seattle is the 13th largest media market in the US, if something could happen in Bellevue it would have already, if you have a few billion laying around feel free to make it happen.
If I can get the temporary office holder to get something done, good for me, if Stern’s temporary position as NBA commissioner provides Steve Ballmer and his partners motivation to gift me 150 million dollars, good for me.
Sooner or later, the temporary office and position holders are replaced, nature takes its course. From that, none if us escape. If I have to drag Nickels and Stern through the mud for 5 more years so that my children in Seattle have a better Seattle Center then I am more than happy to do it. I will step on their heads to improve the quality of life for my children, that include having an active and vibrant civic community, I include sport in that.
I do not care who was mayor in 1962 when people started beating each other up to get the old building remodeled the first time, my dad knows, and I benefit.
I would prefer to not repeat the mistake of 1994, if I can, who was Mayor then, remember off hand? 12 years ago? Does it matter? Will it matter 12 years from now?
A dead Seattle Center is not an option for me, not for my children.
I am not thinking about what goes in the box, do not care right now, I am working on the best box I can get.
July 5th, 2008 at 12:51 pm
And Rossi will have to work with Chopp just as much, it’s not like he is going to be a dictator. I don’t think this arena will get any easier with Rossi as governor (and I will likely vote for him, for many reasons beyond the Sonics but that is the icing).
In the last 20 years, the most productive sessions in Olympia have been when both parties have power, as they are forced to negociate. Remember Rossi and Locke earlier this decade? Gregoire and Chopp have too many similar issues important to them to really play hard ball with each other.
Gregoire raised state spending 33% in the last 4 years spending us into a $2,500,000,000 deficit. That $75,000,000 is chump change in the scheme of things. Our only hope in Olympia is with Rossi.
July 5th, 2008 at 12:53 pm
Mr. Baker, I just want to say that I’ve really enjoyed your commentary throughout this whole ordeal. A good combination of level-headedness, analysis, and optimism. I’m sure you will do a great job working in combination with Brian and Steve to spearhead the arena project.
July 5th, 2008 at 12:55 pm
I agree with your comments, Brian. I just hope that our next arena does not become obsolete as fast as this one did. However, the arena is built whether it’s a rebuilt Key Arena or the Emerald City Center Project is fine with me…as long as it’s built to last for a while…with a better lease. Plus, having an owner who wants to have a playoff team every year would seem to create more stability. If I was an owner, I think I would rather re-load than rebuild… I know that’s easier said than done. But, teams are going to continue to struggle financially as long as a huge amount of revenue comes from playoff success. Owners will continue to be against expansion as long as a few of the bottom dwellers are losing money. It’s probably a pipe dream, but, it would be awesome if Ballmer was just as willing to make personal sacrifices for his teams’ success as Paul Allen has in recent years.
July 5th, 2008 at 12:56 pm
Rock,
I am not a Republican. I am not a partisan. I have never voted a straight party ticket in a general election. I vote for the best candidate.
Also, don’t bring up Bush. He isn’t our Gov. and not running to be our Gov. Why don’t you make up a list of Gregoie’s failings the last 4 years instead?
Are you actually voting for another four years of failure in Olympia? Are you voting for the lesser of two candidates this November because you are a closed minded partisan?
July 5th, 2008 at 1:09 pm
OKC naming contest over at the PI.
Yep, Oklahomo Shity Sphincters is my submition. That covers the owners and the fans.
Copyrighted July 5, 2008
July 5th, 2008 at 1:16 pm
Small D–K City Lying Weasels is my vote. Or the Trailer Park Tornadoes. I am currently designing some anti-OKC t-shirts that I am going to try to sell to pissed off NWesterners and Longhorns fans this fall.
July 5th, 2008 at 1:23 pm
Kingdome I don’t disagree - Rossi may be our best hope in Olympia but I still have no faith in that bureacracy getting anything done. As long as Chopp has his uber-majority and is entrenched like he is on this issue he will pretty much do what he always does and at the end of the day Rossi can’t force him to do anything.
July 5th, 2008 at 1:25 pm
Rossi will have veto power. Rossi will have line item veto power. Chopp will have to work with Rossi just as Rossi had to work with Gov. Locke when he was in control in Olympia.
July 5th, 2008 at 1:40 pm
Did anyone hear Jeff Ament of Pearl Jam on KJR the other day with Gasman? The most interesting part of the interview to me was when Gas asked him what it was like playing at Key Arena? He replied that the Seattle Center staff was very difficult to work with and it was not a pleasant experience for him. Now I’m one of those people who went to many many concerts at the old Coliseum and I’d venture to say a lot of you did too. After the remodel it seemed like concerts were not scheduled with the frequency they had been prior to it. Part of that was because of the other venues that sprang up in the area such as the Tacoma Dome, Everett Events Center, the Gorge, White River, St. Michele Winery and all the tribal locations where they have entertainment. The point is the Coliseum no longer could take advantage of the monopoly it once had.
Now Nickels says there will be more dates filled with shows because those 41 dates will be open. Well why wasn’t he able to do it when the Sonics were here like there was no problem doing before it became the Key. The Center just reeks of being run on the cheap and without a BASKETBALL team as a tenant, Key Arena will rot like the white elephant it has become.
At first, Stern thought it was the best thing since sliced bread, then when Clay bought the team, he rubber stamped the policy of not even considering it as feasible and now he says it’s okay again if we do yada yada yada. Well I can see how after all this the most diehard Sonic fan is ready to jump ship but if this is what they want hold them to it and be prepared for World War 3 when they change their minds again.
July 5th, 2008 at 1:52 pm
And the house and senate can over-ride a veto with a 2/3 vote. Currently the House is split 63-35 and the Senate 32-17. Just getting Rossi voted in is not going to be a cure all if he faces that kind of a majority.
Again, I’m not saying it won’t help, just that it’s not a slam dunk that if Rossi is elected in Nov. Arena funding will get pushed through. There are a lot of groups going after those $’s - hence the “comittee”
July 5th, 2008 at 1:53 pm
The more I think about this situation the more I think we should make sure we do the arena right. It would suck to rebuild key arena and then in 15-20 years find out that it isn’t up to standards anymore and we have to lose another team.
I say we make sure that whatever happens, if we get a brand new arena, or if Key Arena is capable of this, we make sure the new arena will be state of the art and able to be functional for a long long period of time.
July 5th, 2008 at 1:58 pm
“I would love to see a new building. One that would house the NBA, NHL, AFL, concerts, etc. However, SCI is willing to put money into KeyArena. I’m not about to turn down one of the richest men in the world’s money because I want something different than he does for the same thing. If Ballmer can be convinced to build a new arena, I’m all for it.”
Everyone needs to remember this point. We can all have our ideas of what we would want for an arena but guess what we have a short period of time to get this done and the guy with the money has said hes only interested in Key Arena so thats what we need to stick with.
July 5th, 2008 at 2:00 pm
“Our wounds will heal and the bigger picture will become clear to all that the Sonics could be lost forever if we do not act”
When are my wounds from this going to heal? This is much more sad and hurtful then I ever expected it to be. At this point I have no interest in the NBA (if we get a team im sure that will change) but this upcoming season all the wounds are going to come back to me. The first time I see OUR team in Oklahoma I know Im gonna break down again.
July 5th, 2008 at 2:10 pm
it may be less likely that Rossi can get this done if elected. The political bad will created by him beating Christine over the head with this as an issue will likely cause the Dems to resist giving Rossi an “I told you so” moment. Imagine, as I do, that they have the social maturity of 7th graders, logic out the window, reacting out of spite for short term social gain. They hate him now, no point in giving them an issue to battle over.
My interest is lower, Frank Chopp has to go from that position, not unelected from office, just stripped of position.
July 5th, 2008 at 2:22 pm
I am sorry, Brian. I am done with the NBA for now. Talk to me in a few years, but I have had it. I don’t want those lying, cheating scum in my town at the moment.
July 5th, 2008 at 2:26 pm
It absolutely kills me to see the Supes leave town, but to vote for Rossi would be just stupid. I’m an independant voter who will not be swayed by one issue (ie. abortion, arena deals, etc…) The “Ballmer deal” would have happened if Clay didn’t stall things for so long trying to blackmail us into a $500m publicly funded arena! The “Ballmer deal” will work and be passed in Olympia when there is proper preperation and we are not trying to jam it into an already short session.
I’ve worked in state gov. finance for years (3 different states) and Washington state is doing a great job with the budget. The last thing we need is Rossi squeezing the middle class even harder and throwing all environmental regulation out the window. http://www.ofm.wa.gov/budget08/highlights/assets/pdf/briefs/FiscalResponsibility.pdf
July 5th, 2008 at 2:32 pm
Mr. Baker is right. Although Rossi could be more supportive of pro basketball, his election might reduce the possibility of approval by the State house & senate. It is best we remain neutral as a group (vote whatever way you want as individuals). That way SOS is poised to support whoever is elected. We can’t alienate anyone or any party at this point.
Besides, it is nearly 7 months before the new governor takes office. We can’t afford to waste that much time.
Also, if Ballmer writes the check, he decides. If I had my way, the new stadium would hold 500,000 people, so we would hold an indoor Woodstock rock festival. Also, would want it moved closer to the Canadian border to make my commute to games a bit easier.
July 5th, 2008 at 2:42 pm
With all due respect to your experience dirk, but how is a $2.9 Billion budget deficit doing a great job?
July 5th, 2008 at 2:46 pm
did Rossi attend a good number of Sonics games?
July 5th, 2008 at 2:53 pm
Did you guys read that Bennett said that the employees moving to OKC will have to take a cut in pay because of the difference the cost of living? So, if he can’t afford to pay those employees their salaries, what makes any player think that they can afford decent FAs? Does Bennett expect them to take the same discount to come play for the OKC Whatevers?
Bennett is lower than a snake’s navel.
July 5th, 2008 at 2:58 pm
“did Rossi attend a good number of Sonics games?”
Good one VancouverNBA. I attended a Grizzlies game I think in 1997. GM Place was spectacular, much nice than the Key. It was the battle of the bottom feeders as the Grizz were playing the Nuggets and the seats were far from filled, but the fans who were there shouted their hearts out. It turned out both teams were pretty evenly matched so it made for an exciting, nail biting, perpetual lead changing game. When the Grizz finally pulled it out at the end, the place erupted as if they had won the finals. It was one of only 12 games they won all year. You were never given much of a chance to be successful and it would be great to get the team back in the PNW.
July 5th, 2008 at 3:06 pm
The state budget performance has zero, nothing, nadda, zip, to do with allowing Seattle the authority to collect, budget, and spend a revenue stream that grows with sports activity and shrinks when there isn’t. This is the City of Seattle, not the state, if the state wants a say in the money collected in Seattle by virtue of having reasons for people to come to Seattle as a destination city, then they can collect tax money from those places outside of Seattle and contribute to the project, otherwise, they can shut the hell up.
State performance collecting and spending state-wide taxes has nothing to do with the arena in Seatle, or the very same thing that build the arena in Spokane.
My guess is that Seattle will ask and get the authority, and that other cities and towns in King County (and the unincorp) will estimate their portion (if they are net contributors) of the same taxing district and either target something to spend it on, or will drop the collection when it ends. There will be a bundle of proposals drawing from the same source the same way. If Renton wants to spend it on something I think is stupid, then that is none of my business. If Bellevue doesn’t want to collect the tax, that is none of my business.
I am pretty sure this is the way this looks to be positioned.
July 5th, 2008 at 3:22 pm
I am going to “football” the framework for citizen discussion, that is my bias, unfair, unbalanced, tipped Seattle-centric.
I have enjoyed “noodling” my thoughts with all of you here. I may make a blogspot to collect and publish my positions and to serve as a resource. I will post articles there (where ever that becomes), and reprint them here until, and unless, Brian tells me to stop, or this just doesn’t work for me.
July 5th, 2008 at 3:46 pm
I actually prefer Key Arena to GM PLACE for NBA games. The seating at Key Arena makes it feel like you are so close to the court even if you are sitting 25 rows up in the lower level…(I believe there is 27 rows in the lower level at Key Arena). I will miss driving down to Seattle for NBA Basketball. The last game I attended at Key Arena was in March, the Suns and Sonics.
July 5th, 2008 at 3:49 pm
So what have you guys done since the Sonics left us?
Me? I’ve been smoking methamphetamines and sticking needles in my arm.
July 5th, 2008 at 4:04 pm
Jeff, I hope that was a joke.
July 5th, 2008 at 4:08 pm
Re: the political discussion on this and the other threads, please listen to MrBaker:
“It is best we remain neutral as a group (vote whatever way you want as individuals). That way SOS is poised to support whoever is elected. We can’t alienate anyone or any party at this point.
Besides, it is nearly 7 months before the new governor takes office. We can’t afford to waste that much time.
Also, if Ballmer writes the check, he decides…”
He is right! I don’t think SOS should get into any partisan politics or campaign efforts. Brian wisely avoided bashing Schultz 2 yrs ago… it is the same paradigm. His points about the timeline and who writes the check are equally valid. These points should be part of the “regrouping mission statement” IMHO.
Indoor Woodstock… we do have the Gorge!
July 5th, 2008 at 4:13 pm
The NHL requires an arena to have a seating capacity of 16,000 before a new franchise is awarded.
Key Arena hold 10,000 for hockey. End of discussion.
By the way, I’m in Vancouver but correct me if I’m wrong, have the Thunderbirds now moved out of the Key and are playing in a new arena in Kent this year?
So if that’s the case, would the Key not be rather quiet from now on?????
July 5th, 2008 at 4:13 pm
The NHL requires an arena to have a seating capacity of 16,000 before a new franchise is awarded.
Key Arena holds 10,000 for hockey. End of discussion.
By the way, I’m in Vancouver but correct me if I’m wrong, have the Thunderbirds now moved out of the Key and are playing in a new arena in Kent this year?
So if that’s the case, would the Key not be rather quiet from now on?????
July 5th, 2008 at 4:14 pm
So let me get this straight we need to vote for the same people that put us in this position. Why not vote on one issue. The Soics are gone, the jobs are lost, the b&o and sales tax gone. Jobs in the remodel or rebuild gone. We can’t be to concerned about the reaction if we vote for Rossi because there will not be any. This is Olympia isn’t it. We are going to be concerned about taxing the poor and middle class. How do they do that. The reason that we are in this positio is because of controls that are in place.
July 5th, 2008 at 4:24 pm
Nobody is suggesting we vote for the same people who put is in this situation. The only advice I’m hearing is for SOS to stay neutral and suggestions to refrain from being one issue voters. Both good ideas I submit.
July 5th, 2008 at 4:28 pm
One more suggestion, those of you pimping for their candidate for election in November should spend some time contacting the current elected officials. One voice really does go along way.
July 5th, 2008 at 4:39 pm
Proper grammar, punctuation and word selection also go a long way.
July 5th, 2008 at 4:40 pm
Vancouver Fan, is that number before or after the remodel?
also, you are correct that the T-Birds have moved to Kent. Not only that, Everett is trying to lure the Storm away, which would leave the Key empty pretty much year round.
July 5th, 2008 at 4:42 pm
Vancouver Fan, we still have the Storm to hold down Key Arena, unfortunately. Wish they would have left with the Sonics. Its almost worse losing the Sonics and keeping the Storm. How embarrassing.
July 5th, 2008 at 4:48 pm
Mr.Baker - please do publish your ideas on a blogspot somewhere. Re: your post suggesting a coordinated, comprehensive media campaign, among other benefits,
“… steakeaters should swap ideas, figure out where they agree; then (stay with me here) identify in your theme sheet the items that another organisation supports (reference their press release or a person from the group); not every group will agree with every point and every tactic being used to effect a positive response.
At this point you end up with many voices identified as individual groups applying pressure to effect the best possible outcome. ”
The media campaign you describe is absolutely essential. However, IMHO, you are describing what could be a process for actually facilitating a consortium to make it happen, not just affecting public opinion or garnering broad-based public support (please correct me if I misread your post).
Back in the mid-80’s, state agencies, the environmentals, tribes, the timber industry, and small landowners were at odds and embroiled in conflict over forest practices regulation. The “enemies” got tired of their issues being decided by the courts and came to the table. They listened for understanding, not rebuttal. They found common ground and created a novel regulatory process they could all live with; bills for new and revised statutes sailed through the legislature, multi-agency rules were promulgated in record time - all because previously opposing constituents resolved their conflicts BEFORE going to the legislature; it has been successful for the last 20 yrs.
We are talking about a stadium, not regulatory issues, but would it be appropriate, and effective, to consider SOS facilitating a similar process, to bring the stake”eaters” to the table to craft a solution? Public and private?
A post-script: I share your and others’ interest in the vitality of Seattle Center, and Ballmer et al ultimately would write the check, but I wonder if, for the main purpose of NBA ball, it wouldn’t be wise to consider leveraging an all-new arena that would stay NBA-viable longer, with the donation of Muckleshoot land - wouldn’t that make us just that much more independent from the vagaries of fickle pols?
July 5th, 2008 at 4:55 pm
I don’t know why a renovated Key Arena cannot be built to hold both the NHL and NBA. It isn’t like they are tied to the present structure. It can be expanded.
July 5th, 2008 at 5:14 pm
There is a saying the is somewhat overused at times BUT I believe it applies—When One door Closes—-Another one Opens!!!!!!!!!! Believe!!!
July 5th, 2008 at 5:19 pm
Brian~ I am behind you and Steve’s efforts still. I am bruised and my spirits are low after this week’s news but am still hopeful that we will have Sonics basketball back in town someday. This site has really helped me to get through this as I have been going through so many emotions. When you have so much passion for something it really hits you hard when you lose it!! I just didn’t realize how much it would hurt. : ( But now it is time to be positive, productive, and focus on the future and what is.
July 5th, 2008 at 5:40 pm
This may be selfish on my part, but I would actually be OK with the move if Durant and Green end up leaving OKC when free agency is up. The team then looses the identity with Seattle that it had.
But that is just me being a selfish sonics fan.
July 5th, 2008 at 5:41 pm
For the Key Arena remodel the NHL has to be part of the discussion:
Griffin said his group hasn’t “spent much time talking about the NHL, although we’ve spent some time.”
“For me, personally, I think it’s something worth looking at. Never say never.”
The more indoor professional sports fans the better IMO.
July 5th, 2008 at 5:51 pm
This is from a eternally optimistic person who has had his heart ripped out. Kansas City has a new arena and no one is in it. I hate to be a downer but a new arena doesn’t get you a team. Why couldn’t we get anything done while we had a team? Poor leadership on the city and state level doomed us from the start. I am sorry but we are not getting another team. We have been a casualty of the broken NBA model and inept leadership. My childhood has been put in a moving truck and moved to the OKC. I have 82 nights to fill. Let me know if you have any suggestions.
July 5th, 2008 at 5:58 pm
There is a difference between Seattle and KC. Metro Seattle is almost 4M. KC metro is 2M.
July 5th, 2008 at 6:03 pm
OKC metro is 1.2M. Memphis is almost 1.3M. I still can’t believe that the NBA has teams in those towns.
July 5th, 2008 at 6:05 pm
And?
July 5th, 2008 at 6:08 pm
“OKC metro is 1.2M. Memphis is almost 1.3M. I still can’t believe that the NBA has teams in those towns.”
Poor point - Portland Metro is only 550K. it’s the surrounding areas that matter.
http://www.oregon.com/towns/population_alpha.cfm
July 5th, 2008 at 6:24 pm
@versio
The Portland metro population is over 2,300,000ish.
July 5th, 2008 at 6:24 pm
@versio
The Portland metro population is over 2,300,000ish.
July 5th, 2008 at 6:28 pm
does someone on here drive a big white truck/subarban with SOS in white written on the back? i saw it in bothell today and got tears. were u at the rally?
July 5th, 2008 at 6:31 pm
For the NBA the Key Arena holds 17,072…
how does it only hold 10,000 when a hockey rink is in there?? 7,072 seats are not in the configuration?
July 5th, 2008 at 6:42 pm
So, does Durant sign with the new Sonics as a free agent in 2011?
July 5th, 2008 at 6:46 pm
VancouverNBA,
They basically have to remove one of the end sections of seats to create enough room for the rink. I don’t know if 10,000 is the correct number but it does hold considerably fewer in the hockey configuration.
July 5th, 2008 at 6:49 pm
push your issue not a candidate that happens to hold your position on that one item, have them pander to you, not the other way around.
The existing structure could be expanded out one end, that was pointed out to me once, the hold back is twofold: there was an NBA team in it; it costs more money. One of those has been resolved, the other I do not happen to have that kind of cash laying around.
Those of you comparing market sizes should use apples to apples: media market sizes.
Portland city and Seattle city are about the same size, Seattle media market is about a million more, nearly 2.
You could use media market, tv market, radio market sizes, combine that with median income, average ticket prices, next thing you know the Sonics employees take a paycut when they go to okc, the team instantly lost real value.
You can get some rankings from wikipedia.
The media market in Seattle is 3.3 million and growing, 13th. The next market that doesn’t have an NBA team is St Louis, I think they have 2.4 million, 19th. OKC is half the size of St Louis, 1.2 million, 47th.
Rankings fluctuate some. I am using data that is many moths old and from memory, and still, I know there are fewer people with less money in OKC than ANY NBA city.
July 5th, 2008 at 6:57 pm
Yes Dave, Durant signs with the Sonics after the 2011 season, it would be a huge move for him flexing his star power.
He would get a lot of ultra positive press.
July 5th, 2008 at 7:00 pm
Vancouver NBA; You’re right about the seating capacity for basketball but the (soon to be former) Key Arena holds approximately 15,700 for hockey. It’s the awkward horse-shoe configuration to fit a rink as well as the seating capacity that has kept the NHL away.
July 5th, 2008 at 7:00 pm
Metro Seattle is 3.7M. The median income for the state of WA is around $53K. OKC metro is 1.2M. The median income for the state of OK is $38K. The median income for the US is $48K.
July 5th, 2008 at 7:04 pm
It is my opinion that if they are going to renovate the Key they should expand it. There is plenty of room to do it. It can be expanded for more seating and for he NHL and the NBA. We don’t need to stay with its present configuration.
July 5th, 2008 at 7:04 pm
T - that white SUV in Bothell belongs to SeattleFan91 and yes he was at the rally! He contributed ALOT to the chronology and article/quote support threads here, and has posted some great videos on youtube. He’s a great SOS supporter!
July 5th, 2008 at 7:06 pm
Correction on the seating in the Key for hockey. It’s 15,177
July 5th, 2008 at 7:34 pm
I’m going to miss the Seattle/Portland I-5 Rivalry
July 5th, 2008 at 7:39 pm
oops..forgot to add that although i’ll miss the rivalry between the two I-5 Cities I look forward to it returning within 5 years!!!
July 5th, 2008 at 7:48 pm
If Ballmer is writing a $300M check, then he decides. If the check is for $150M, then he doesn’t decide shit. Bulldoze the entire Seattle Center for all I care.
Seattle’s constituents don’t want to have anything to do with this. It’s time to take their voice out of the equation.
NEW facility - NO public dollars. Ideally outside the City of Seattle (They don’t deserve to earn another penny from an NBA team).
Kemper Freeman? David Sabey?
I doubt the reason Ballmer went to Sonics games was because they were played at Seattle Center. He’s either an NBA fan or he isn’t.
July 5th, 2008 at 7:59 pm
ok Dick, go make that happen.
a competition if ideas is a great thing, come on back when you have any of that lined up, call Fred Brown.
July 5th, 2008 at 8:10 pm
I am sure CFMIT will help you, Dick, I am sure.
July 5th, 2008 at 8:13 pm
Actually, I think having an arena that is completely privately owned is a good idea. It can pull all of the events from the Key and make it totally obselete. That would really help the Seattle taxpayers.
July 5th, 2008 at 8:36 pm
It absolutely kills me to see the Supes leave town, but to vote for Rossi would be just stupid.
Your boss Gregoire is a joke. Worst Governor in this state in generations.
Rossi understands this issue, Gregoire doesn’t, and this extends well beyond this issue as well.
Mr. Baker is right. Although Rossi could be more supportive of pro basketball, his election might reduce the possibility of approval by the State house & senate.
Rock,
If the Democrats are that pathetic and vindictive, why don’t you stop being a closed minded partisan and vote those bums out?
Do you like being a partisan? Do you like voting for dimwits over superior candidates?
It is best we remain neutral as a group (vote whatever way you want as individuals).
Stay neutral as a group is a good idea, but it is important we elect Rossi. I understand you are a closed minded partisan, but how much more failure can you accept? Gregoire has had 12 years of mediocrity, how much more do we need?
A quarter century of one party rule in the Governor’s mansion and things continue to get worse. It is time for a change.
July 5th, 2008 at 8:39 pm
Interesting discussion… I would add….
1. Steve P. made a comment on his recent thread that if Olympia does not approve money for an arena - no problem - they have another plan that is sure to get an arena done by the deadline. he was asked to share more on this but has been silent as far as I can tell - maybe I missed something.
To me this is a huge issue - what deal is already done behind the scenes? Everyone could be wasting their time worrying and working on a new arean plan if the powers that be already know what they can and will do.
2. Rossi or Gregorie? Can we just leave it alone - avoid campaigning for either on this site? Vote for who you want - I don’t trust either to guarentee anything. Gregoire lied and played SOS - Nickels lied and played SOS and now asks for SOS’s help …. Who is to say rossi will be different.
3. Adding #1 & #2 together - i don’t trust any of the political leaders or stern - he made NO promise. We can work for an arena but we need to be ready to not have an NBA team in it.
4. I agree with all who say…. If Ballmer is putting up 150 million then he decides where the arena goes and what kidn of arena is built.
In theory - there would seem to be alot of advantages to starting from scratch in a new location/site - building something brand new - and if it can hold NHL and MAJOR convensions that is a HUGE positive. That makes sense to me - It was the one thing Clay talked about that made some sense - but again - IMO that is and will be up to Ballmer & Co. because they are paying the big bucks to make it possible to do anything.
I hope and assume they are already thinking about “Plan B” if they do NOT get the 75 million from the state - doing the whole thing with private money in a whole new way may make the most sense if they can pull it off . I’d look hard at Sabey’s land in S. seattle area - and any other option.
July 5th, 2008 at 8:39 pm
Correction on the seating in the Key for hockey. It’s 15,177
What is the # of seats that can actually see the entire ice? That 15,177 figure is bogus.
July 5th, 2008 at 8:43 pm
2. Rossi or Gregorie? Can we just leave it alone - avoid campaigning for either on this site? Vote for who you want - I don’t trust either to guarentee anything. Gregoire lied and played SOS - Nickels lied and played SOS and now asks for SOS’s help …. Who is to say rossi will be different.
Rossi is a Republican. In a state domniated by partisan Democrats, Republicans need to overachieve to remain in office. Democrats can, and still get reelected if they are inept. See Atty. General Gregoire as an example.
Sorry, but Gregoire is the #2 reason for the Sonics leaving behind Schultz. Her opponent understands the issue, so this is a no brainer.
July 5th, 2008 at 8:45 pm
Metro Seattle is 3.7M.
4,130,000 according to April 1 estimates.
July 5th, 2008 at 8:48 pm
The media market in Seattle is 3.3 million and growing, 13th.
The Seattle media market has roughly 4,500,000 people.
July 5th, 2008 at 8:49 pm
JJ, here’s that comment from Steve you mentioned in your post above:
“We will have our arena expansion. If it doesn’t happen in January we have an ace in the hole to get it done before the deadline.”
What? Very intrigued. While I’m curious just having Steve be this confident makes me feel like there is alot we don’t know about behind the scenes.
July 5th, 2008 at 8:51 pm
For the NBA the Key Arena holds 17,072…
how does it only hold 10,000 when a hockey rink is in there?? 7,072 seats are not in the configuration?
July 5th, 2008 at 8:53 pm
For the NBA the Key Arena holds 17,072…
how does it only hold 10,000 when a hockey rink is in there?? 7,072 seats are not in the configuration?
Ever see the Phoenix Coyotes at America West Arnea? It was like that but worse. To fit the ice, they need to retract seats at one end and stick the rink well into the bowl, which blocks the view of one of the goals for many seats.
July 5th, 2008 at 9:01 pm
I know many will not want to deal with this issue but I want to put it out for discussion again:
In what way would SOS support or not support taking another NBA team from another city and fan base?
If we are working desperately for a new arena hoping to get a new NBA team…. will we want a team no matter what it costs to another city or group of fans?
I know there are unpredicatable variables etc. in any hypothetical situation (Memphis, Sacramento, New Orleans, etc. etc.) but I will not support Seattle trying to do to another community and fan base anything close to what Clay & Co. did to us. I know this is sensitive -and different opinions will emerge - but to me it would be very sad and even distrubing is we simply get into a mindset of something like … “Just get us a team at any cost because WE WANT the NBA”
If SOS decides to lead some type of effort to get an arena deal done - and I certainly believe Brian & Steve will go in this direction - I would ask them and everyone to consider taking some type of stance about under what conditions we would or would not support taking another cities team. Would SOS have any standards - Would SOS care - or would it just be “Get us a team for Seattle”.
If SOS would not be willing to say something up-front in a clear & official way regarding any conditions that would influence their supporting or not supporting taking another cities team - I would be disappointed.
IMO, to not do this could make SOS very vulnerable to simply shifting roles and becoming some other cities version of Clay B. & OKC.
Hard words I know - But I think this should be carefully considered.
Among many other things…. this is what is most disturbing to me about the “New Deal” that Nickels and Stern are inviting Seattle & SOS to support. It is based primarily on the assumption and even hope that if we build a new arena Stern will let us know when a team is for sale - which means that while it could be expansion - we are building an arena with the most likely expectationa and hope that for Seattle to get a new team we will need to be willing to take another cities team.
I know many will say… “But it will be different - or it would be different if it was Charolotte or New orleans etc. etc.” Maybe - But can we say we can trust the NBA & Stern to deal with such a potential situation with honesty and integrity?
Just saying…. I think this needs to be considered - and for me the way this whole thing is set up creates a barrier for me to supporting the new arena effort - I don’t wasnt to be part ot dragging another cities fans somewhere through something like what we went through - and I’m just soured on the NBA to the point I’m not sure I care anymore - I don’t trust Stern at all - he will screw another city for Seattle benefit if he wants. I don’t want to be part of that. And I just struggle with aligning myself with Nickels period. He spit on SOS -Played SOS - manipulated SOS - Why should we trust him?
My guess is Brian & Steve will say you just have to work with the leaders that are in place - like Nickels and gregoire etc. - but I’m taking a step back and saying - maybe not - and maybe I don’t wants NBA hoops in Seattle at any cost - maybe if the cost is another cities fans heart and soul I’d rather avoid taking their team.
Long post - hard issues I know - thanks for reading & considering…
July 5th, 2008 at 9:08 pm
Matt at 8:49…
Yes - I agree - There is plenty we dont’ know and this comment simply causes me to ask Steve - can you please tell us more?
If SOS is going to ask everyone to give their heart and soul to a new arena effort I think we desire to know more.
Now Steve - you may be regretting that post…. fine - but the bigger issue is… can you ask SOS people to pour energy into a plan that is not needed?
My guess is - and just a total guess - Is Ballmer & Co will pour more money into it if the State says “NO”. They have the money - they seem to have the will. If they are willing to spend around 300-350 million on a team and another 150 million on an arena - an extra 75-150 million from their wallets would seem doable and possible.
Just a guess.
Steve & Brian - can you please tell us more?
July 5th, 2008 at 9:11 pm
JJ…
what about the “if you dont, someone else will” argument… (KC, San Jose, etc…)
end justifies the means?…
July 5th, 2008 at 9:19 pm
a thousand words…
http://img202.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=40187_IMG_2818_122_514lo.jpg
July 5th, 2008 at 9:20 pm
Good comments JJ.
I have similar concerns on all those fronts. I’d like to think that I wouldn’t be a fan of a team that’s been taken from another city as part of Stern’s game of coercion. I wish I could just divorce myself from the NBA until they develop some integrity/common decency but my best efforts are failing.
July 5th, 2008 at 9:25 pm
I think the sticking problem is “if we build it” will they come? I am not sure having an arena in place guarantees us anything. I seriously doubt that Ballmer and Co. would stoop to anything as underhanded as what the PBC did to get their team. We could have a new arena (whether an entirely different building or a renovated Key) for several years before there would be a team available.
Our best hope is that Yarmuth works his magic and get the Sonics back in Seattle.
July 5th, 2008 at 9:26 pm
the best solution for me is the flatten Memorial Stadium, and build a new arena on that footprint, it would take the arena off the Queen Anne homes and face it on the east side, next the EMP. Does a highschool football stadium need to be right there?
Anyway, I can only support known ideas that have a financial plan, the rest are wants.
July 5th, 2008 at 9:30 pm
It seems like the fact that the Key doesn’t need to be open for the NBA while being renovated would make it easier to pull out all the stops with the remodel. I’ve said that I don’t think the NHL is a viable thing for the City of Seattle..but I think the powers that be need to do what they can to make sure this Arena is useful for the next 25 years. Lets not just make another bandaid that pulls us all back into this situation in 2018.
July 5th, 2008 at 9:30 pm
Kingdome, I don’t know what seats are obstructed in the Key for hockey, but I think we agree that in it’s current state it’s insufficient for hockey on any level. As far as the seating capacity I researched it, and if you think it’s bogus take it up with Wikipedia.
July 5th, 2008 at 9:31 pm
My only consolation is that hopefully working on this problem is smarter than me.
July 5th, 2008 at 9:32 pm
I think the sticking problem is “if we build it” will they come? I am not sure having an arena in place guarantees us anything. I seriously doubt that Ballmer and Co. would stoop to anything as underhanded as what the PBC did to get their team. We could have a new arena (whether an entirely different building or a renovated Key) for several years before there would be a team available.
- I do worry that building an Arena just makes us the ultimate leverage for the NBA. I think that they shuold be able to secure the funding and then force the NBA to make a decision about moving here BEFORE renovations.
July 5th, 2008 at 9:33 pm
“hopefully people working on this problem are smarter than me”.
July 5th, 2008 at 9:35 pm
I agree. You don’t put out one cent until you have either a NBA or NHL team confirmed.
July 5th, 2008 at 9:38 pm
Clay Bennett has 30 million reasons to want to help.
I am hopeful that the Schiltz case will encourage the NBA to solve the problem sooner rather than later. Schultz has nothing to lose but lawyer’s fees, and he made 30 million on the sale of the team, he could squeeze a written promise out of the NBA that Seattle gets 1st available at market price, and maybe an I’m sorry I screwed Seattle All-Star Game.
July 5th, 2008 at 9:51 pm
How long you guys think Seattle is without the Sonics? Cleveland went ‘96, ‘97, ‘98. ‘99 without the Browns. Is Ballmer working on this post haste? Cleveland basically had a deal in place in ‘95 that guaranteed a new team by ‘99. The city had already begun constructing a stadium at that time.
July 5th, 2008 at 10:06 pm
a team will become available, my guess, at the end of 2010 season, I saw 2011.
July 5th, 2008 at 10:08 pm
“Steve P. made a comment on his recent thread that if Olympia does not approve money for an arena - no problem - they have another plan that is sure to get an arena done by the deadline. he was asked to share more on this but has been silent as far as I can tell - maybe I missed something.”
I also heard him say this on the radio today. That he is confident that legislature will get it done but if they dont they have another plan that will get it done. So he obviously wanting to keep this confidential but its making me curious! Ill trust hes not telling us for a reason.
July 5th, 2008 at 10:12 pm
“a team will become available, my guess, at the end of 2010 season, I saw 2011. ”
i wish we didnt even have to wait that long. could be a lot worse though. i hope ballmer offers durant top dollars to come back to us.
July 5th, 2008 at 10:17 pm
How nice would it be to bring in Durant for Seattle’s first season back?
What am I saying, Schultz wins. Sonics will be back for the 2009-2010 season! Positive thinking.
If they are renovating the Key, where would the Sonics play that year? In Tacoma?
July 5th, 2008 at 10:17 pm
in the end we’ll have the last laugh!
July 5th, 2008 at 10:18 pm
a team will become available, my guess, at the end of 2010 season, I saw 2011.
Are you referring to an existing team or expansion? I believe the league has 31 teams; having 32 would even it out.
July 5th, 2008 at 10:35 pm
league has 30 teams.
The Kings have a timeline to build a new arena or risk losing the team around 2010.
The Mdmphis lease has a buyout that is possible starting in 2010, and the city side of that lease is not very good, they could actually make more money with the team gone.
The Bobcats experiment keeps going, they are bringing in the pros to make that thing go, much like Memphis 3 years ago, it is make or break for them.
The Hornets are not moving unless Shinn actually sells the team, that’s my feeling, he has screwed too many markets, he is asking for direct tax payments, not likely.
Failing that the NBA expands by 2, to 32.
I’m guessing.
July 5th, 2008 at 10:37 pm
Mr. Baker, we’ll see how hard Bennett works to get Seattle a new team. I suspect he won’t work very hard until AFTER the state legislature passes funding. Why should he rattle the cage at all unless and until we generate our own momentum with the state legislature?
July 5th, 2008 at 10:50 pm
john, in the end, we have the stronger market for corperate backing and population. Try having a 21 win season in okc 4 years from now, tell me that 13 or 14 thousand fans are showing up for that, tell me Durant and Jeff Green think Clay Bennett and Oklahoma City has their best interests at heart, that is going to be a setback, boo hoo, the slight that’s saving the Sonics.
I have been saying this for months, there is a better chance of Kevin Durant being in a Seattle Sonics uniform in 2011 than in an OKC uniform. Tell me he wants to work for Clay, he made more money in endorsements than salary last year, Clay needs him, not the other way around.
July 5th, 2008 at 10:54 pm
AD at 9:11…. For me - that thinking does not work well or negate the issue I oultlined in my post earlier.
July 5th, 2008 at 10:56 pm
Ben, that was the question, what if we do get funding and are working toward the remodel, what makes anybody think the NBA would step up, well, at that point Bennett is on the hook for the other 30 million.
July 5th, 2008 at 10:57 pm
T at 10:08… Thanks for that update.
Not sure what Steve knows - he is hinting more is happening - probably trying to give NBA hoops fans in Seattle hope without getting them discouraged about an Olympia effort to get more money that looks like an uphill climb
July 5th, 2008 at 11:07 pm
MR. Baker i can’t wait till the day durant glides across the hardwood in green and gold again. I’m not saying i’m going to gloat like the okies did on here. But i might laugh a little
July 5th, 2008 at 11:10 pm
AD at 9:11…. For me - that thinking does not work well or negate the issue I oultlined in my post earlier.
July 5th, 2008 at 11:12 pm
That he is confident that legislature will get it done but if they dont they have another plan that will get it done.
Where was this plan this year? He also said that one of the players agent told him that his client is not going to OKC. Haven’t heard anything about that.
July 5th, 2008 at 11:22 pm
As a proponent of trying to bring the NBA back to Seattle, I assume most of you would prefer the expansion team option over moving another existing franchise to Seattle.
However, if an existing NBA team were to come to Seattle, I would have less moral qualms if it were Memphis. The rationale is that Grizzlies were originally VanCouver’s team, Memphis took them, Seattle has now lost a team, and it would be logical to have Memphis come back to the Northwest US/Canada corner as Seattle’s replacement team. VanCouver came into the league in 1995 as part of a dual Canadian experiment with Toronto, the franchise ended up in Memphis in 2002. Seattle meanwhile lasted from 1967 until 2008 with a strong history and fan base as a NBA city.
I am not saying that it is the best thing to take a franchise from another city, but in terms of purity and history, Seattle has a stronger claim to have a team than Memphis (and VanCouver). Let’s face it: Memphis is an something of an accidental NBA city.
July 5th, 2008 at 11:36 pm
Ok, since folks are getting sidetracked on to “plan B” I will tell you that we don’t have a “better” option than getting the deal done in Olympia this session, and even if Ballmer and company were willing to up their investment (which I sincerly doubt they would do) they sure are not going to let anyone know it.
There is no plan that avoids dealing with Olympia, that step has to be pursued and with all of our efforts, and even if there were there is no way we would ever let them get the idea that they can do nothing yet again and get away with it.
We lost this group of players because of the complete failure to lead in Olympia. Their lack of vision and leadership is of monumental proportions. As we are already seeing there are members rushing to show their low IQ and start the excuse making process.
We need to take all those excuses away from them and make it clear that failure is not an option. There has to be a price for them to pay for their failure this past session. There can be no free ride for that fiasco.
For them to not act throws away $30 million for the city and that can not be allowed to happen.
So I am sorry that I can’t go into detail on the options that we have because Olympia can not be trusted to do the right thing to start with do you really want them overtaxing their logic centers looking for backdoors?
July 5th, 2008 at 11:43 pm
I will put it this way, I have less of a problem undoing somebody else’s mistake. The Griz should go back to Canada, but I do not see that happening, in this case, I’d be happy to have them here, and have a home game up there every year. I am not thrilled with what this would mean to the fans in Memphis, which brings me full circle, I do not care what they put in the box, new or stolen, I do not control that, neither do the fans in Memphis for that matter.
I am concerned about my city, an empty arena, and a dead Seattle Center.
July 5th, 2008 at 11:56 pm
Step 2: New Mascot
I hope Bennett got the real Squatch - no replica needed. I’ve always hated that thing
July 5th, 2008 at 11:59 pm
Fair enough Steve, I think people here just deserve to know that this isn’t all or nothing on our side, because right now we have nothing as fans but talk, finger pointing, and the same faces in politics that delivered nothing.
I will be following Matt Griffin, I think he has a heart, and its in the right place.
July 6th, 2008 at 12:02 am
With supposely all the smart people we have in this state(not) we got took to the barnyard by a hick from OKC. How could this have happen ? We don’t need to look further than our great(not) Olympia. It pains me that these people have no clue and still don’t. Having lived through the Pilots leaving. I never thought that this could happen again. And knowing it could be 5 years before(maybe) we get another team that would seem forever and I would have stop caring by then.
July 6th, 2008 at 12:05 am
Olympia is paramount. If the legislature doesn’t vote ‘yes’ by next fall, then Oklahoma City gets OUR history forever. There friggin BETTER be a deal in place!
July 6th, 2008 at 12:18 am
Is it possible that Clay is keeping/sharing the history just so he has some more leverage in the Schultz case? Maybe he did this so that it would piss people off and scare them into getting Schultz to settle. I’ll be we hear more history coming our way before its over.
July 6th, 2008 at 12:27 am
According to the agreement, if Seattle is granted an expansion team in the next five years, that franchise will share the Sonics’ history with the Oklahoma City team.
If Seattle lands a team through relocation of an existing franchise, most likely the Oklahoma City team will retain sole possession of the Sonics history.
So if we get the Memphis team we won’t be able to rename them the Sonics and keep the history. This is just getting worse and worse. Man we sold out.
July 6th, 2008 at 12:55 am
Don’t worry about it kba. There would be no mention at all about hte Sonics logo, history, etc. if a newly aquired franchise wouldn’t be named the Sonics. I think Laporbo has good point about Clay keeping some rights the history. He’s not in the clear because of the Schultz case, so him keeping shared rights gives him some leverage.
July 6th, 2008 at 1:06 am
its bad enought he took the team clay clay couldnt just keep the history where it belong..they wanna share the history..the more i read about this the more it makes me sick!
July 6th, 2008 at 1:08 am
T, When will the wounds heal? That is different depending on the person I guess. It will always be in our memory and we will never forget what abuses we went through thanks to the NBA and WA State Legislators. I am still getting depressed in waves and it hits me like a truck when it does but I guess for me personally I see an opportunity to get the Team back in the near future rather then later or never. It may not be a team with Robert Swift, Luke R, earl waston, Gelliebean, Petro, ect ect. but it will be a team that for sure will stomp out any OKC Bandits, and there is nothing like a good rivalry. It is normal to be sad for a while but I am trying to express that fact that we do not have much time to be sad or else we will lose them for good. Put on your Sonics Warrior Princess armor and lets get an arena , then after we have that we can relax for a while and be sad, we need to have laser focus on getting the KEY redone.
Also, be happy that Clay Clay will never be back in our town again. He is gone. That is truly an independence day I can be happy about.
Personally what helps me feel better is looking towards the future of a new Key and a new Sonics. that feeling I will get at the opening night will bring different tears.. Tears of JOY knowing that we(as a community) came together for a common goal that will benefit many generations of Seattle and NW(and beyond) residents.
Thomas Jefferson:
” If the game runs sometimes against us at home we must have patience till luck turns, and then we shall have an opportunity of winning back the principles we have lost, for this is a game where principles are at stake.”
July 6th, 2008 at 1:14 am
Sorry guys, I just have to vent something here…. I’m seeing a lot of comments that I think represent a huge part of the problem here in our state. Collectively, I think we have a short memory. Just 90 days ago, we had a group that was passionate about giving Gregoire the “boot” at the end of her term. Now, it’s like everyone forgets her complete lack of leadership with this issue from just a few months ago. Rossi goes on the record and clearly states that he’s completely in favor of this package and supports it 100%, yet here we are…finding a way to be okay with Christine again. Do we want the deal or not? Why is everyone softening up all of a sudden on Gregoire? She stared this threat of departure right in the face and did NOTHING. Oh, I’m sorry…she assigned a TASK FORCE. Well whoopty freakin dooo! My faith is restored.
I’d rather have a governor who looks for ways to get something done rather than one who doesn’t hesitate to list all the reasons why something won’t work. Stop panzyin’ out on this one, and stick to your guns. This is our problem. We let up on the people who are the most responsible. We’d rather bash Nickels who at least tried to push it through legislature only to have it stopped by Gregoire. At least he was fighting for a while. I said Rossi at the beginning of the year, and I say Rossi now.
July 6th, 2008 at 2:04 am
Derek.
I think the point is to be ‘political’ about this process and not burn any bridges, not to get distracted by who should be to blame but focus on the ONE and ONLY thing that will get our beloved Sonics in town. The KEY.. THE KEY is the key to getting the Sonics back. it use to be RENTON now it is the KEY.. that is good news.
Trust me, I am all for showing OLY that to make bad decisions will cost you your job. However, if we get divided along political lines then we are doomed. It is not about Rossi or Chris “we have all been lied to today’ Gregoire,
It is about SAVING the SONICS. and the critical element in the goal is the renovated KEY ARENA.
I want Gregoire and Rossi to have a bidding war on our votes. lets hold our Vote to ourselves until they have had a chance to one up themselves and we are clear on who will get us closer to the goal.
If SOS becomes political and partisan, I fear we are done for, we as a community are getting along because of the common GOAL … Saving the Sonics…
The path will become clear on where our efforts must go but for now we should remain focused on Saving the Sonics. Brian Robinson said not to burn bridges because we may need the very people that have done us wrong. cough cough Howard Schultz
Part of the effort will be voting our conscious but I think that is our main weapon and should be held close to our hip until we need to use it, and not use it as a threat and stir up political bashing.
“In union there is strength” -Aesop
July 6th, 2008 at 2:23 am
What the hell?!!!! We don’t get to keep the name and history?!!! WTF?!!! What the hell does Clay want with it? Just makes the OKC team look worse and worse and more like the bandits they are. I’m in Europe and haven’t been able to stay in the loop much. But I saw what went down. Pretty disappointing. I don’t exactly see what the city accomplished other than getting a bit of blood money. I WILL NOT ROOT FOR OR FOLLOW AN NBA TEAM IN SEATTLE NOT NAMED THE SEATTLE SUPERSONICS. Period.
July 6th, 2008 at 2:32 am
So somebody explain it to me. If we get an expansion team, which is unlikely as the league doesnt want to expand, we get our name back. But if we get another struggling team, we get jack. WHAT THE HELL?!!!!!!!!! Why does Clay need it if he isn’t going to use it on the court??? I am so f’n pissed off right now. I WILL NOT follow the Seattle Grizzlies. F you David Stern. And F you City of Seattle. Them most of all. They didnt get us JACK CRAP in that damn settlement. For the time being, I am done with the NBA. I should be for good. But if the SEATTLE SUPERSONICS never return, neither do I. Did Stern and Clay really need to do this to us? All it is, is another kick in the teeth while we are down. NBA, go to hell.
July 6th, 2008 at 2:35 am
And one last thing. Not to be too negative right now. But for as great as SOS and all of us have been, we mean jack squat in the end and have no affect on things. All the f’n crap we all did, just to have this happen to us. I’ve learned a valuable lesson on activism in today’s messed up world.
SIGH.
Go Seahawks.
July 6th, 2008 at 2:43 am
http://tinyurl.com/6aku8o
Funny how this is the thing that is the final straw for me. I had come to grips with losing this team. But not losing the “Sonics”. I wish very bad things upon David Stern and Clay Bennett.
July 6th, 2008 at 3:12 am
EJ, I agree with you about “wish very bad things upon David Stern and Clay Bennett”. Personally, I will celebrate if something has happened bad to them. I have no REMORSE feeling for these two people.
I can not believe that how DUMB and [edit] the city agreed to let Clay Bennett to have the right to retain the team name and logo? Sorry if I use the f word BUT why??? What is Clay trying to do? Oh that to use that as leverage for Schultz lawsuit? If that is the case, then screw NBA because Stern and Bennett should be charged for fraud or collusion as I hope the someone in the Congress step in and investigate the whole thing in NBA. How the f*** these type of behaviors can be bought out with $$? I have lost the respect for NBA for allowing this. In other word, David Stern has won and got his way. I will disagree with Steve and BR to maintain the bridges, not burn them.
If NBA does come back, I will probably show my love for it as I have grew up all my life being Sonics fan. BUT BUT BUT David Stern and Clay Bennett CAN NOT CAN NOT CAN NOT come to Seattle!
July 6th, 2008 at 8:02 am
I believe Heisley is still trying to sell the Grizzlies…what a mess it has been for them in Memphis, I believe they have the worst attendace in the NBA this past year…Ballmer should buy them!!!
How much will it cost to get out of the lease in Memphis???
July 6th, 2008 at 8:34 am
correct perspective. all the talk about the sonics being ‘ours’ relates to the world of sentiment. that is a human world and it’s real, but it isn’t the ‘real world’ of dollars and cents that makes pro sports hum.
‘our’ love for the sonics is real, but stern’s job description is as follows: work for the owners to maximize their respective and collective profit.
under this description, one will find a sub-clause: one of the most effective ways to maximize $ for an owner is to leverage ‘his’ market by playing arena blackmail.
BUT. . . i don’t believe stern ‘hates’ seattle. what stern hates is not making as much money as he can for his bosses. . . and having his smoke & mirrors league — whose product is actually pretty lousy most of the time — exposed.
stern will listen to steve ballmer and take him seriously. i’m certain that having ballmer as owner is a VERY attractive proposition to the comi$$ioner.
here’s the math: ballmer + arena = seattle franchise.
and then what? why, then stern will look at the whole thing as having a happy ending. he’ll have gotten new arenas in seattle and the okc; have brought on board to rich & loyal owners, and have taught the other cities out there not to think that ‘their’ teams couldn’t move. . .
this is classic and has been going on for decades.
but i’m glad ballmer is on ‘our’ side. i still want to follow the seattle supersonics.
July 6th, 2008 at 9:44 am
EJ,
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/ABPub/2008/07/02/2008030778.pdf
this is the agreement. I think this reads we get the Sonics name of a. we hijack another team(aka “NEW NBA TEAM”) then we can change it to the Sonics and b. if we get an expansion we get to name it but the PBC wants to share the HISTORY meaning the stats.
I dont care about sharing history it happened here so not matter how much whiteout you use it will not change history. (at least in my mind)
This is disgusting all around but I agree with the math.
ballmer + arena =seattle fanchise!!
July 6th, 2008 at 10:58 am
the best solution for me is the flatten Memorial Stadium, and build a new arena on that footprint,
Baker,
Brilliant idea! They could keep the war memorial as part of the project. Also, it could be used as a venue for EMP concerts and events.
July 6th, 2008 at 5:50 pm
Forget about feeling bad about the history issue. Names, logos, banners and trophies go with the franchise no matter where it goes, almost always, in all sports. Minneapolis has an NBA team, but the city’s greatest NBA years are ‘owned’ by the Lakers in LA. (Milwaukee ‘owns’ Seattle’s first MLB team, still holds the intellectual property rights to the Pilots.) Same with any number of other ‘relocated’ teams. We need to get over it.
However, no matter how much time Clay spends in his living room staring at the Sonics championship trophy (which I suspect he will do), he doesn’t own the history itself. We, all of us who shared the experience, own it, every minute of it, every disappointment and every highlight. With almost no exception, those NBA pretenders in OKC will see the Sonics banners hanging in the Dust Bowl arena and have no association, no memory, no emotion to go with it. Screw them. The Sonics history is our history. Period.
July 6th, 2008 at 5:53 pm
What happened to the other post?
July 6th, 2008 at 6:05 pm
At this point, i’ll take Gay Mayo Conley all day every day. Seattle Grizzlies or Sonics will still stomp on OKC for years to come.
July 6th, 2008 at 7:06 pm
What about SOS shaping the upcoming election? I strategic billboard on I5 stating the names of those that sold out the Sonics fans. I am independent voter, and what our officials did will shape my vote in November. A small reason the officials settled, may have been they don’t believe Sonics fans will make enough difference in the election. I say we change that. Is it time to go on the offensive, or will that tactic burn much needed bridges with some officials?
July 6th, 2008 at 10:22 pm
Clay is buying a stairway to basketball heaven….
July 7th, 2008 at 8:07 am
This article makes sense to me. The city has a problem. It needs something to anchor the area around Key Arena. It also makes no financial sense to keep running Seattle Center at a loss just for the Storm.
To help fix this problem we have $150 million in free matching money. On top of that, there is a $30 million “insurance policy” that you didn’t mention. If for some reason this falls apart, the city can still recoup $30 million from Bennett to recover the losses.
Setting up the funding is a no lose proposition.
July 7th, 2008 at 10:53 am
Looks like 12 hours worth of posts got swallowed up by a black hole in cyberspace