Donaldson is no help
Posted on Thursday, July 23rd, 2009 at 9:43 pm by Mr. Baker (thinking good thoughts for George Karl))
The thinning of the pack.
James Donaldson, the former Seattle Sonic, is the only candidate [for Mayor of Seattle] who is against using tax money to refurbish KeyArena to hopefully lure another NBA team to town. Also, Drago was the only candidate to say she was against electing City Council members by district instead of the current system of city-wide elections.
SeattlePI.com Seattle mayoral debate highlights
I kind of knew this, he said it about a year ago on KJR, and I had to guess he was either thinking that the entire time, or was awash in the loss of the franchise, now you know, and so do I.
Originally posted at Seattle Center Arena Reboot
July 24th, 2009 at 8:36 am
Hey I saw this over at another hoops site thought I might want to pst it here to see if maybe Balmer has any interest.
[i]The New York Post has learned that Nets owner Bruce Ratner is actively looking to selling the team.
Ratner is looking into the feasibility of selling the Nets, even though the club’s value is considerably lower in the current economic market.
“I know definitely he has been thinking about doing it [selling],” one source said. “But now is not the time. And if he sells, what about the building? Does he sell just the team? Then you’re in New Jersey for a couple years losing a ton of money.”
There have even been “preliminary discussions” with some investors that are viewed as potential buyers, sources added.
“After this year, the Nets will have one of, if not the, lowest payroll in the league, which could make them attractive,” said another source. “That they’re trying to sell is not even an issue any more.”[/i]
Now would be a nice time to step to the plate Balmer
July 24th, 2009 at 8:51 am
I hope the Nets move to Brooklyn. Brooklyn alone has 2.5 million people and deserves its own basketball team. With that said I would not be disappointed if Seattle got them though!
July 24th, 2009 at 9:40 am
Dont get your hopes up. With our so-called inferior arena no team is coming here.
July 24th, 2009 at 10:17 am
Thought some of you guys might like this link: http://sports.espn.go.com/oly/olybb/news/story?id=4352887
July 24th, 2009 at 10:34 am
“Now would be a nice time to step to the plate Balmer”
How? Say Ballmer steps up and buys the Nets, or any other team, he won’t be able to move them here without an arena (or at least a plan in place to get a new one).
July 24th, 2009 at 11:10 am
By the time the ‘09-10 NBA season starts the Nets wont be the only team for sale. Trust me.
July 24th, 2009 at 11:27 am
I just read the post by MYK AAARRRGGG!!!!!
July 24th, 2009 at 12:25 pm
The myth the NBA is selling is that there is a recovery, there will be some growth, but the loss of value that so many team build their budgets on every year.
There is a big hole, with player contracts, and fixed costs that did not, or will not completely adjust down.
Plenty of businesses, NBA as well, are straddling that hole with a bunch of debt weighing on them.
July 24th, 2009 at 12:34 pm
“Straddling that hole” … back to the stern/bennett relationship already?
July 24th, 2009 at 12:39 pm
NBA players do not need to make 25 million dollars a year. that’s ludicrious for anyone. then you’ve got guys who know they’re not worth that but since that’s the bar, they must be worth $15 or 16 million. Does anyone else think Portland offering Andre Miller $7mm a year is insane? These guys get paid to play a game that for 18+ years they played for free. I would play pro basketball for $40K/yr. Until they get the salaries down, the NBA is going to stay in financial jeopardy.
July 24th, 2009 at 1:27 pm
TB…of course you would…you probably aren’t very good so you’d be willing to play for a much lower rate. Consider yourself the Walmart of basketball players.
July 24th, 2009 at 2:42 pm
TB,
“I would play pro basketball for $40K/yr.”
A good lifespan in the NBA is 8-10 years. There are few players that make $5 million a year. What happens then?? you have to think that they are going to have bad backs and banged up knees and unable to work at their profession they have dedicated their entire lives to, and for the next 30 years that they could have been in the workforce some are not equipped to navigate the Americana economy, an economy that is biased towards white males.
These STARS are ripped from high school with no college education only knowing basketball.
IMO there is more to the story then just, these guys make too much money. There is a better way to do this NBA thing but it is not just b/c Allen Iverson got paid $12 mil last year.
July 24th, 2009 at 3:48 pm
The players union will have to, again, choose to have less disparity in salary. But, no matter what, the league and all of its parts are not going to make as much money, and the arenas will not be cheaper, and the fans are being turned off but the economy in general.
Bubble burst.
July 24th, 2009 at 4:00 pm
I’m just saying that these guys who say they won’t play for less than x million dollars a year should be ashamed. i can understand saying you can’t work for less than a reasonable wage. but we’re talking millions of dollars, more money than most of us will see in our life time, to PLAY A GAME. I remember someone, might have been Danny Ferry, getting traded as part of a multi-player deal and the big star in the deal was bitching and moaning. and Ferry (or whomever it was) said “hey, i get paid to play basketball. i’ll go wherever they send me.” that’s the attitude more players should have.
July 24th, 2009 at 4:34 pm
TB,
I hear ya. I look at this level of basketball as I would any highly skilled professional job, like a DR or Lawyer. Less emphasis on it being a ‘game’.
If you make an average of 65K per year for 40 years you receive in your lifetime 2.6 million. I am not sure what the exact numbers are but look at Shawn Livingston he is making 800k last year and was drafted in 2004. His career might be over as of the end of this year due to this..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zGPKIS6pB_c
I had to do it to make a point.(srry) This image haunts me.
July 24th, 2009 at 4:49 pm
The problem is that these guys make the big money after their prime when chances are they are less productive. Their value to a team then becomes their expiring contract and not their play on the court. Very few players take front loaded contracts. I don’t even know if thats legal under the CBA.
They should take a page from the NFL and have less guarantees, or none, and make signing bonuses higher. That way you don’t end up paying $20+ mm in salary to a guy who is way past his prime and injury ridden. Its sick and scary that the highest paid player in the L next year will be T-Mac. Jermaine O’Neal will be #3.
The current economy might be a good thing for the NBA, in the sense that a guy like David Lee probably isn’t going to get the $10 mm he wants because only a handful of teams can pay that. And if they can they realize they don’t have to anymore.
July 24th, 2009 at 8:37 pm
The NBA would be a healthier league if….
1. The overall salary cap was lower - so teams overhead could be lower. This could be done - there is still plenty of money to go around to pay the players well plus they are earning more and more through shoe contracts and endorsements etc.
2. The highest salaries were lower - and the minimum salary was higher - close the gap a bit.
3. The contracts were not guarenteed the way they are now - which leads to guys like Jerome James or marbury etc. hanging on - fans hate it - bad for teams morale - just a bad deal.
One thing the NBA has right - which the NFL could learn from - is keeping rookie contracts lower and very straightforward. Make guys play are earn their next contract. The NFL structure for paying rookies who have done nothing HUGE money and the resulting holdouts etc. sucks.
I agree with memace above - while the current ecomony will cost teams millions in the short run - it provides a good opportunity to have an excuse to re-shape the collective bargaining agreement in a better way because the players will be more likley to give up some stuff in this environment. We’ll see.
But…. a lockout would not surprise me at all.
July 24th, 2009 at 11:16 pm
I remember someone, might have been Danny Ferry, getting traded as part of a multi-player deal and the big star in the deal was bitching and moaning. and Ferry (or whomever it was) said “hey, i get paid to play basketball. i’ll go wherever they send me.” that’s the attitude more players should have
- Each team is worth somewhere between 200millon and 600million…that makes the NBA a multi billion dollar industry. This is not a “game”…its a very large business that makes money entertaining us. If NBA players shouldn’t make that much money then eithe should actors, singers or writers. Then you get into defining who should make what…which is essentially communism.
July 25th, 2009 at 3:04 am
Agree with MYK.
It is a multi-billion dollar industry. Everyone just try to get the biggest piece of the pie. If we lower the players’ salary significantly, nobody will want to play in the NBA. I think the players hold enough powers to not allow that to happen.
Just imagine if you are the player and you get less than a million, then you see billions of dollars going to the owners and everyone else, what will you do?
July 25th, 2009 at 7:29 am
New “truth-in-advertising” NBA campaign: I LOVE THIS MULTI-BILLION DOLLAR INDUSTRY
July 25th, 2009 at 7:42 am
I agree with you guys, but on both sides.I definitely agree with JJ about being able to cut a Jerome James or a Calvin Booth/Vin Baker ala NFL style. Players would keep trying to improve instead of f’n the dog as soon as they get a huge contract. If they are stars, then they still get endorsements up the yin yang. It’s good to keep them looking over their shoulders maybe we could do like MLB and if we send them to a farm team, (Idaho Stampede), we should demote their salaries accordingly.
July 25th, 2009 at 8:08 am
The market is, and has been, dictating that the players and owners should not make as much as their cost structure demands.
July 25th, 2009 at 8:33 am
All along i never thought we NEEDED a new arena, just a better team. Attendance would support even a decent team.
July 25th, 2009 at 2:08 pm
Well, no, all events being equal you can not sell a ticket to the same level of entertainment event at KeyArena as you could at Safeco or Qwest.
Even Joe Fan sees more value in buying a ticket to an event where he could eat an drink an hour before first pitch/tip off/ kick off.
People pay more for a ticket when that other stuff is there.
Filling almost every set, and playoffs, with one of the lowest payrolls allowed the Sonics to just make it a small profit in 2005 (depending on who you ask).
Why are so many people going to Mariners games the past two years, how are they making money? It is not careful attention to payroll or wins and losses. People do not actually recoil at the thought of going there.
I really do not think it would take $300 million, but that is not up to me, and that is the current deal on the table.
I think Seattle should start thinking after the first of the year about what to do when a new private facility is built and takes the only advantages KeyArena has away from it: lcation, and being a large indoor facility.
This market is too big, and growing, to not present its self as a good place for that kind of development, even if James Donaldson does not see it.
July 25th, 2009 at 5:04 pm
Mike McGinn is not opposed to tax dollars for KeyArena, but he is opposed the the tunnel, which will just devour any potential arena funding sources for quite some time.
July 25th, 2009 at 6:13 pm
Baker,
Chris Van Dyke in our video interview said that one of the reasons why SB6116 didn’t even get to a vote on was because some of the “leaders” said Clay Bennett would fight this in court b/c this bill didn’t satisfy the settlement agreement.
Is that true?
July 25th, 2009 at 6:46 pm
I seem to recall that being said about Ross Hunter’s plan, which is why the city nixed that:
http://www.seattlepi.com/basketball/400797_keyarena20.html
July 25th, 2009 at 7:45 pm
Camp, that was a claim of the original bill, there is no way that the substitute bill could be viewed the same way. KeyArena was identified by name, the funding sources by name.
Besides, that is a redherring, there is little doubt in anybody’s mind that Steve Ballmer would be able to identify a team to relocate here loooooong before the 8/17/2013 deadline.
Had Clay Bennett been a reason for anybody to not bring it to a vote then that would have been a headline excuse for doing nothing. Plenty of people make a career out of doing nothing.
July 25th, 2009 at 7:51 pm
feedthehawk Says:
July 25th, 2009 at 5:04 pm e
Mike McGinn is not opposed to tax dollars for KeyArena, but he is opposed the the tunnel, which will just devour any potential arena funding sources for quite some time.
in the city club “debate” McGinn held up the yellow waffle sign, Donaldson Red no, all the rest Green yes.
Here are my endorsements so far, 2 candidates for Exec and 2 for mayor for the primary. I am waffling in McGinn (for the above yellow caution sign).
http://manywordsforrain.blogspot.com/search/label/Endorsements%202009
July 25th, 2009 at 8:35 pm
First Substitute Bill 6116, Page 11, section 6. (a) and (b)
http://apps.leg.wa.gov/documents/billdocs/2009-10/Pdf/Bills/Senate%20Bills/6116-S.pdf
SB6116 substitute bill was written after the house bill was passed over to the Senate Ways and Means Committee.
Hunter told me that was the only way he could get the bill passed out of his committee and onto the floor for a vote.
Either the house bill was going to get amended in the senate WM committee or they would pass their own.
They had a hearing and took testimony on the original senate bill 6116. Hunter, CVD, Dow Constantine, a parade of people testified for that original bill.
In executive session, the substitute was passed to the senate Rules committee. They decide if and what gets a floor vote.
Read page 11, sec 6. a and b, and you will see explicite language that directly supports the terms of the city settlement with Clay Bennett.
On the floor the striker amendment from the bill’s champion, Ed Murray, struck the husky stadium portion from the bill.
July 25th, 2009 at 9:19 pm
Thank you. I am not going to allow Dyke to spin this. Perhaps not addressing this issue at all in the movie or perhaps using to clear up some misconceptions.
Is there anyway that even though, what you stated above makes it clear this is not an issue, that the legislator is so out of touch with this issue that they didn’t know and perhaps poo pooed it thinking it was still an issue?
The goal is to make this SB 6116 as clear as crystal just how good of a deal this is and make them look like buffoons for not approving it. Movie comes out in October 12th free to the internets.
Not that I think there is a good chance that a special session could still happen but DAMMIT there is still time!!
July 25th, 2009 at 9:22 pm
For the record Van Dyke seemed like he was gloating about the Sonics being assed out. Sure he was political and said he didn’t want to get in the way of the NBA but I swear I saw his silver tooth sparkle with glee as he rehashed his triumph in keeping public money away from the NBA.
downright aggravating and disgusting at the same time.
July 25th, 2009 at 10:02 pm
Maybe CVD should give you the source before you accept his story as gospel.
He testified FOR the bill. I think he is spinning the side that won, had it passed he would say that he helped that side, he is a lobbyist, and does not make money promoting his losers.
Olympia is an excuse factory, have him point to one published sourse, written after the substitute bill was introduced, are the actual “leader”.
Btw, it is not the state’s problem if Bennett was to fight the second substitute, it would have been the city’s problem. The city was not ok with Hunter’s bill, but Dwight Dively testified in favor of the first sb, ask him if there was a problem with the second substitute that Murray was bringing to the Senate Floor, ask Dively if “leaders” thought Bennett would fight that bill, in that form.
July 26th, 2009 at 12:31 am
Given all the evidence you have provided, It prob. won’t even be worth mentioning. Besides less CVD means more air time for others.
October 12th free to the internet!! “Sonicsgate” the movie
We will be showing it at the SIFF theater at the Seattle center on Friday Oct 9th 2009.
trailer will come out middle of August. Woot Woot.
July 26th, 2009 at 12:35 am
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GTHqmOEduKo&feature=fvw
found this gem.. LOL..
July 26th, 2009 at 9:17 am
RE: Camp’s assessment of NBA careers. You nailed it. Also, these guys are not “just millionaires playing a game,” they are entertainers at the highest level who are forced to be public figures and lose their privacy too. if Michael Jackson can sell hundreds of millions of records for “just dancing around,” i think it’s equally fair that these guys make millions “just to play a game.” That’s not to say the NBA business model is in good shape, but i think a $10-15 million salary is reasonable for being one of the 50 best basketball players in the world.
Rashard Lewis getting $25 mill, on the other hand…
back on topic: i think Donaldson is just bowing to the “WLEs” and the current anti-stadium climate since he thinks it will help him get elected. it’s a damn shame. in our interview, he said he was all about getting a team back… but he has a tendency to speak in broad generalities without any specific plan of action. his campaign staff just contacted me and asked me to blur out the KeyArena sign in this ad we donated to them because of the “political pressure”: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0lSXUNmcGaw
July 26th, 2009 at 10:18 am
“Decades-old dreams of building something big on part of the sprawling parking lot north of Qwest Field took a big step forward this month when the Seattle City Council approved zoning changes paving the way for redevelopment.”
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/sundaybuzz/2009538801_sundaybuzz26.html
the city does not own the land, but they control it by zoning. They are not going to zone in a new arena that kills KeyArena.
I think the funding failure (if/when that happens) should be used as leverage if the terms of the settlement by the end of this year.
Btw, as I eyeball google earth I see that footprint is more than enough space for a brand new, privately owned, arena.
July 26th, 2009 at 10:36 am
Political pressure? He was the only one holding up a No sign. McGinn had the waffle sign, the others all had green Yes signs.
“but he has a tendency to speak in broad generalities without any specific plan of action”
that is why he did not make my top two, even if he held up the waffle or Yes sign, I do not see or hear policy/planning/leadership. I hear/see team work and jokes about being big.
Seeing them all in the City Club “debate” talk, and formulate thoughts, it was actually pretty easy picking two.
The same goes for watching the Seattle Times editorial interview of the panel of executive candidates (I’ll note that the on-demand web was cut into 8 sections, and the page view counters were like 38, and 40, not kidding, I hope more people watched it live).
At one point in the county exec panel I thought Susan Hutchinson looked like she was ready to vote for Ross Hunter (maybe she will).
July 26th, 2009 at 2:32 pm
I am excited for the trailer and then the movie. Hopefully King5 will do another story about it when it comes out so the word can be spread and it can be seen by a lot of people
July 26th, 2009 at 3:43 pm
we have plans with King5 and Seattle Times to do stories before the release. that first one was just a small preview.
July 26th, 2009 at 6:04 pm
There is a guy here at KFC on N. Aurora that got off a motorcycle dressed head to toe in Sonics gear, and shoes.
Awsome!
July 26th, 2009 at 7:00 pm
That’s amazing Baker! A few days ago I got off the subway and saw a guy wearing an old school Kemp jersey. It made my day.
July 26th, 2009 at 10:13 pm
Hey Camp, footage of getting thrown out of the Starbucks main office by some goons would be a nice touch, courtesy of boss Schultz.
Let them know GM failed and they can too.
July 26th, 2009 at 10:18 pm
Did u give him props, Baker? I always say, “nice shirt” or what have u when I see a Sonics Faithful out there these days.
July 26th, 2009 at 10:59 pm
What kind of national perspective does the film have? I can’t wait to get some details about the local crap involved in Sonics Gate, but I also imagine a lot of national eyes will take a look at the film too. I hope there is some focus on the NBA’s fault in all of this too, because imo the NBA is the biggest culprit.
I can’t tell you guys how appreciative I am for you making a film about Sonics Gate.
July 27th, 2009 at 2:57 am
Eric — it will hopefully have as wide a scope as possible, but we are still booking interviews and attempting to organize a massive amount of footage right now. we’ve reached out to Stern, Litvin, Cuban, Karl, Simmons and even Nader on the national level, so we’ll see if any of them bite. we’ll have a better idea of the total content by the second week of August, but the idea is to make it relatable for a national audience with a “no team is safe” type appeal.
rock on ye Supes faithful!
July 27th, 2009 at 7:55 am
Yes, speed, I as kawking (sp) and said “nice colors” and then I got into my gold color vw beetle a few feet away.
Do not know if the guy heard what I actually said, he was talking to his family.
July 27th, 2009 at 11:20 am
Our Buddy Bill Simmons opines on the “Zombie Sonics” in his latest NBA article….
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/090727
July 27th, 2009 at 11:57 am
It’s being whispered now among NBA types because, I believe, under a secret NBA/ESPN provision you are not permitted to say aloud anything that might be interpreted to suggest LeBron James isn’t the best thing to ever happen in anyone’s life. But sitting in the stands in Las Vegas at the USA Basketball mini-camp and hearing NBA coaches and general managers, the gasps have been for Oklahoma City’s Kevin Durant. I’ve now heard more than one say Durant could be a better player than James given Durant’s combination of amazing size at about 6-10 and pure shooting stroke. And he’s still 20. The feeling is Durant is on the brink of being a 30 per game scorer. Plus, Durant is a serious worker. The Bulls’ Derrick Rose has become close with Durant and the two have worked out together considerably this summer. Said Rose, who is five days younger than Durant: “KD is great. He’s real talented. I look at him as like a big brother to me even though we’re the same age. He’s been in the league longer. He’s a great talent, 6-10 guy who can dribble, shoot like a guard. He’s going to be a great talent in the league.”
- Sam Smith
July 27th, 2009 at 1:00 pm
Presti stockpiles more draft picks… Freedom for D Wilkins…
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=4359294&campaign=rss&source=NBAHeadlines
July 27th, 2009 at 1:26 pm
A couple other tidbits about players salaries: How many of you have played high school/college basketball? Do you remember around half-way through the season how tiring practice got? How much you dreaded going to practice? You dreaded the long road trip games? Now multiply that by 8 if it was high school and 3 if you played college. Now factor in the road trips away from your wife/children. Now factor in having to move from Milwaukee to Utah to Memphis to wherever every year. People talk about how glorious it would be to be in the NBA, but the truth is most people couldn’t handle it. Did you know that 40min/game is equiv to 8 miles? Body breaking down, playing through injury, etc etc.. Then the publicity on top of all that…
I wanted very badly to play in the NBA when I was younger. I’m in my late twenties now, and you’d have to pay me… like…. $20 mil a year to be able to put up with that!
July 27th, 2009 at 2:50 pm
Donaldson was just on KJR with Ian Furness.
he defended raising the “No” on Key taxes paddle by saying he “can’t unequivocally say yes without checking with the taxpayers first… but i want to find those public private partnerships… i’m the best candidate to bring the NBA back…” etc.
July 27th, 2009 at 6:38 pm
Well, ya, he says it in item#131, that he will work to get private funding for the remodel of KeyArena.
Not to put down this thought, but, why would anybody pay for the entire remodel? The city would pretty much have to sell it, and I am not so sure the council would do that, and I do not know why somebody would pay all that for an old building. The city can make that up in user taxes, parking taxes, etc. It is not as if a private business would be allowed to operate without getting soaked with those same taxes (unless you are employing girls, gosh-golly).
Good luck with that, James, and I’ll bet Bellevue would offer better for less.
http://blog.seattlepi.com/transportation/library/Looking_Up_James_Donaldson_s_Plan_For_Seattle.pdf
July 27th, 2009 at 7:06 pm
Did I miss something, what happened to clint?
July 27th, 2009 at 9:17 pm
I think BR finally got fed up and banned his whiney ass.
July 27th, 2009 at 9:55 pm
http://sonicscentral.com/blog/?p=2506#comments
Check Clint’s comment on July 7 at 8:38 p.m., then see Brian’s response at 2:24 a.m. the next day.
July 27th, 2009 at 10:14 pm
Ohhhh ok, well anyway I can’t wait to see the documentary!!
July 28th, 2009 at 12:13 am
I think that the devil came to claim what was his, Clint’s soul.
October 9th 2009 we are screening the movie at the SIFF theater at the Seattle Center(by the REPATORY Theater). Maybe again on the 10th then FREE to the internet on the 12th.
July 28th, 2009 at 9:41 am
D. Wilkins leaves thunder - traded to Minnesota….. I think Collison is the only thunder left from the last Sonic steam in Seattle other than Durrant & Jeff G.. The overhaul is almost complete by Presti.
They have a super young team with tons of cap space …. they have plenty of draft picks coming up and 2 solid young players in JG & RW and a Young star in KD ….. This may be the test on if guys will stay or come to a city like OKC or not. It will also be interesting to see if Clay opens up his wallet or not - he and his co-owners have lost a ton of $$$ in the past 1-2 years.
July 28th, 2009 at 10:00 am
Hornets trade Tyson Chandler for Emeka Okafor
July 28th, 2009 at 11:02 am
Bill Simmons is going to be a full on OKC fan sooner than later.
July 28th, 2009 at 11:11 am
“The overhaul is almost complete by Presti.”
Getting rid of Watson and finding a taker for Wilkens is huge!
July 28th, 2009 at 1:34 pm
Great trade for the Hornets…
July 28th, 2009 at 1:38 pm
Just think if Bennett hadn’t been so cheap they could’ve traded for Okafor…
July 28th, 2009 at 2:38 pm
We had this discussion a couple years ago: Which roster would you rather have the Sonics or the Blazers.
I’ve got a new one…which roster would you rather have right now. The Thunder or the Clippers?
Both have under 22 superstars (Durant/Griffen).
Both have young number twos (Westbrook/Gordon).
Both have questionably talented young number threes (Green/Thorton)
Both have a ton of cap space next year (Clips have ~$16million)
The big difference is the Clippers have all that AND Baron Davis…
So, what team would you want?
July 28th, 2009 at 3:17 pm
I don’t think you can pencil in Griffen as a superstar quite yet. With the Clipper jinx there could be a serious knee injury in his future.
Baron Davis is the reason I wouldn’t want the Clippers roster. His contract is pretty bad considering his age, injury history, and production.
July 28th, 2009 at 4:02 pm
You forgot one thing. One team is in Cali and the other in oklahoma.
Hands down… Clippers.
July 28th, 2009 at 4:49 pm
Yeah but he’s talking about just the roster I think.
The one thing I will miss about Clint is how he would say something and MYK would just destroy his argument.
July 28th, 2009 at 6:07 pm
“Getting rid of Watson and finding a taker for Wilkens is huge!”
I can’t tell you how many times I wanted that to happen for the Sonics.
“You forgot one thing. One team is in Cali and the other in oklahoma.”
I disagree with that. I’d rather play for the Thunder where the city and its fans care about the players rather than for the Clippers which is just a triple A team for the rest of the league and constantly hiding in the shadow of the Lakers.
July 28th, 2009 at 6:15 pm
now that I think about that again, nevermind. I would rather play 2nd tier in LA than a lot of cities in the NBA, including OKC lol.
July 28th, 2009 at 6:59 pm
I’d take the Thunder roster over the Clippers.
I think Baron hurts more than helps the development over the next few years, if only because he’s good enough to add a handful of wins to the total and maybe have them picking 7-11 instead of 1-6 the next couple of years. Not having many vets and being awful netted the Thunder Westbrook and Harden - could make a big difference.
Westbrook and Gordon are similiar, but RW being a superior defender (although prob too early to really tell) might give him the edge. I like Green a lot more than I do Thornton - if for any reason that I think he is more versatile plus 3 yrs younger. Tough to find another young talent on the Clipps to put up against Harden.
The upcoming picks favor OKC - especially considering how the PHO angle could play out this year. I think it still all comes down to who you like the most as a building block, KD or BG - both are young talented rosters. What they both do with the cap space will be really interesting.
An interesting side discussion would be which roster is built to surround the #1 option better? As much as I like Green, not exactly a perfect compliment to Durant, though Westbrook seems to fit fine. Gordon and Griffin might turn out to be the quintessential inside/out combo GMs dream about, and Thornton being more of a slasher could fill the gap.
July 28th, 2009 at 8:50 pm
The current Clippers roster reminds me of the 99 Spurs in a way. No they won’t win a championship, but an inside-out game produces a lot of wins. Kaman and Griffin are going to get rebounds and Griffin will add 20 points or more a game.
The Thunder will jack up a 20 footer almost every trip and won’t get any second chance points and they have absolutely no bench. Durant is going to average nearly 40 points on 60% shooting for that team to get 30 or more wins.
July 28th, 2009 at 9:58 pm
“I think BR finally got fed up and banned his whiney ass.”
Seems like Clint is finally gone.
That is one crazy individual. He some times made me laugh but I won’t miss his bizarre tirades.
July 28th, 2009 at 10:23 pm
I loved clints posts back when he was very passionate about saving the “kd and jeff green led sonics” but I just will never understand how he switched so quickly to the blazers and even more so why he kept pushing them on us knowing 99.9 % of true sonics fans will not be blazers fans ever!
July 28th, 2009 at 10:26 pm
And please can I say this without starting an A.I. debate as I’m sure most of you are haters…..but he is my very favorite player and I can’t wait to see what team he is going to. Seeing there’s a chance he might go to memphis it makes me wish they would move here so bad! I know its wishful thinking though.
July 28th, 2009 at 11:43 pm
T,
AI was a great player…on Simmons podcast they were talking about how he used to go and just dunk on players. I guess we’ll never know if his style of play made it impossible to be on a winning team or if the management just stuck him with horrible players. But, I do think people don’t give him enough credit for really loving the game of basketball and the history behind it.
If anyone checks out Simmons’ podcast also listen for the guy talking about how AI showed up for an interview one day and took a ball and was dribbling it between his legs and doing cross overs to show off his ball handling skills…oh ya…it wasn’t a basketball it was a FOOTBALL. I don’t even know how that is possible.
July 28th, 2009 at 11:48 pm
RE: Clips/Thunder discussion…
- I know that the Clippers have had alot of crazy injuries and bad luck…but I dont think you can really use “Griffen wont be a star cause he’ll get hurt” as an argument.
- I just meant rosters…I think most anyone would say playing in LA is better than playing in OKC. Also, I don’t agree that the Clippers are just some “farm” team. That may be true now. But, if say Griffen turns into a superstar…the Clippers will be huge in that town. LA loves stars…
- Have to agree with M_Cage…I think there “might” be more talent on the Thunder roster…but I think the Clipper roster is significantly better built. The Thunder just have too many wings right now…
- So…along those same lines. Simmons mades another interesting comment. Everyone says LeBron to the Knicks is a done deal…or he stays in Cleveland. What if he went to the Clippers. Can you seriously imagine a starting line up of Davis, Gordon, James, Griffin, Kaman. Thorton coming off the bench. How would that not be a sixty win team?? And why would James choose the Knicks over that team…really, why would he choose Cleveland’s mess over that team?
July 28th, 2009 at 11:48 pm
As for Clint…I think he enjoyed the attention (even if it was negative). I don’t tthink he was as crazy as he acted…but just started to play a “role” on the msg board.
July 29th, 2009 at 12:02 am
t,
It was really ugly how he fizzled out and retired or whatever he did on Detroit. I don’t know what really happened but it was a train wreck.
He is very interesting and he seems like an awesome dad. Seems like his kids are always with him. Kinda sad how last year went down, kinda tragic.
Interesting web page about AI http://www.alleniversonlive.com/
July 29th, 2009 at 4:55 am
Re AI: The latest is the Heat is still interested or more specifically Dwayne Wade. It caught my attention at the beginning of last season that he had cut off his corn rolls and adopted a more natural short afro, influenced by Obama’s statement to “put aside childish things” but then he turned around and showed everyone in Detroit he really hadn’t changed all that much. It’s like he’s the only player where John Thompson’s influence in his life other than in basketball terms never rubbed off on him at all.
July 29th, 2009 at 5:08 am
Ratner is looking for an investor for his Atlantic Yards Development in Brooklyn, not someone to take the team away - the Nets are the anchor tenant in the proposed Barclays Center (which in turn is the anchor of the Atlantic Yards project), construction of which is scheduled to begin by the end of the year.
Even if the Atlantic Yards project falls through, Ratner would have no qualms about selling the team to someone who might look to move them, but the move would likely be about 10.5 miles to the almost brand new Prudential Center in Newark, currently the home of the New Jersey Devils and a couple of local college B-Ball teams.
Atlantic Yards/Barclays Center: http://www.barclayscenter.com/
Prudential Center: http://www.prucenter.com/
July 29th, 2009 at 7:18 am
did someone just compare Griffin to Durant a few clicks back?
now i’m laughing
July 29th, 2009 at 8:20 am
Donald Sterling is a primary reason LeBron probably won’t go to he Clippers and why the Blunder are better positioned to suceed than are the Clippers. The Clippers have lost at least 50 games in 24 of the last 25 seasons. Over the past 25 years, the Clippers typically have lost over 50 games per season. They’ve had many opportunities like the one they have now. However, they always screw it up. I don’t know all of the reasons but understand that much of it rests with Sterling’s tightwad ways. He always has shitty teams but keeps costs down and always makes money. Maling money has always been his priority. Maybe things are changing and, having rid themselves of GM Elgin Baylor, they are and will continue to make better personnel moves? I’ll believe the Clippers can suceed when I see it happen.
July 29th, 2009 at 12:45 pm
“I know that the Clippers have had alot of crazy injuries and bad luck…but I dont think you can really use “Griffen wont be a star cause he’ll get hurt” as an argument.”
Thats not my argument at all. My main argument is that you can’t say Griffin is a superstar on KD level yet. He hasn’t played a regular season game yet. Premature to base his NBA game based on college and summer league. I think he’ll be very good, but we don’t know that yet.
Baron Davis is why I wouldn’t want the Clippers roster.
09/10 $12.1 mm
10/11 $13 mm
11/12 $13.9 mm
12/13 $14.8 mm
July 29th, 2009 at 4:48 pm
I can see it now. In 2015, we will have an NBA team in Seattle playing at the “Bing Center in Seattle Center”
July 29th, 2009 at 5:08 pm
“The Clippers have lost at least 50 games in 24 of the last 25 seasons.”
There’s no question that the Clippers have been one of the worst, probably the worst, NBA teams in terms of wins and losses. But your numbers are way off, unless you’re counting losses in exhibition games. The Clippers have AVOIDED losing 50 games three of the last five seasons.
The correct figure is they lost at least 50 games in 18 of the last 25 seasons. (Really 17 of 25, in the strike-shortened season, they lost 41 games — but would’ve lost over 50 if the season had been a full one.)
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/LAC/
The Clips are bad no doubt about it and have been bad ever since they left Buffalo. But let’s not make up fake numbers about how bad they are, the corect numbers are plenty bad enough.
July 29th, 2009 at 6:54 pm
from Simmons latest page 2 article - thought you guys would enjoy…
30. Does anyone remember laughter?!?!?
To Robert Swift for finally ending up on the Celtics (their summer league team, but still). This damn near killed me. Danny Ainge has been trying to acquire him for four solid years. (On the day of the 2005 draft, he offered Seattle an extra No. 1 pick to switch spots, settling for Al Jefferson when the Sonics said no. It’s true.) When Swift blew out his knee, added 350 tattoos and turned into a mutant Malachai from “Children of the Corn,” did that stop Danny? Noooooooooo! If you don’t think Swift will be Boston’s 15th man this season, you’re fooling yourself. Swift and Brian Scalabrine on the same bench? Two redheads on the same NBA team in the 21st century? And in Boston? This was destiny.
July 29th, 2009 at 7:03 pm
Just heard on KJR the Portland Trailblazers WILL NOT play a preseason game at the Key Arena this fall. Clint must be so pissed.
July 29th, 2009 at 7:48 pm
“The Clippers are bad…let’s not make up fake numbers about how bad they are, the corect numbers are plenty bad enough.”
I initially miscalculated that figure using one source but found it was wrong and changed my wording to “Over the past 25 years, the Clippers typically have lost over 50 games per season. ” I forgot to take out the 24 of 25 language.
Why assume that I faked numbers? You don’t know me and if you did you’d know that I do my best to avoid misrepresentations.
July 29th, 2009 at 8:51 pm
So…along those same lines. Simmons mades another interesting comment. Everyone says LeBron to the Knicks is a done deal…or he stays in Cleveland. What if he went to the Clippers…
That would be scary, and imagine the rivalry with Kobe then! But keeping with the youth discussion, and also possibly more likely would be the following scenario…
Baron has a another injury-riddled throw-away season - enough to know he is on a serious decline, but Gordon takes a big step forward, and Griffin lives up to the hype. Sterling decides to build a nucleas for contention 3 years down the road and throws the enough money at Rajon Rondo that the celtics don’t match. Rondo, Gordon, Thornton/whoever, Griffin, Kaman - with an aging but rejuvinated Baron coming off the bench for a crazy fast small ball lineup.
How exciting would that be?!?!
One thing about Sterling is he has been far from uber cheap the past several years. 3 years from now, if the Clipps play their cards right, Sterling could be in posistion to have his team reach close to an apex just as the Lakers are crumbling into the 08 Pistons.
July 29th, 2009 at 9:22 pm
could be a playoff team if that happens cage.
i really don’t see Griffin being in Durant’s league tho. he’s a tweener who relied heavily on athletic dominance in college. decent jumpshot, maybe a consistent double-double guy in a few years but not a dominant offensive or defensive player in the pros.
i miss playing the “what if” lineup game with our team
July 29th, 2009 at 11:50 pm
minor thing, off topic……
just watching a rerun of Frasier. gang at a Sonics game. niles shoots half court shot and makes it.
can’t even enjoy the sitcom anymore. just when I get over it, another reminder of how pissed off I am.
sucks, really sucks.
July 30th, 2009 at 12:18 am
Adam Brown,
you can still play that game but on a bigger scale. “What if we get 12 new players for a wide open line up in a building that does not exist and a team that resides in the museum of history and industry” MOHAI http://www.seattlehistory.org/index.cfm
I might have to lay some flowers down at the Championship trophy.
I went to the M’s game today. It was cool seeing Ichiro and Griffey play. Griff saved the game with a double with bases loaded to put us up by one. I forgot how much fun going to an M’s game was. Maybe it was the heat stroke though… lots of Sonics jerseys at the game. I gave high 5’s to everyone of them that I saw. I think they thought I was crazy.
July 30th, 2009 at 12:24 am
“Baron has a another injury-riddled throw-away season - enough to know he is on a serious decline, but Gordon takes a big step forward, and Griffin lives up to the hype. Sterling decides to build a nucleas for contention 3 years down the road and throws the enough money at Rajon Rondo that the celtics don’t match. Rondo, Gordon, Thornton/whoever, Griffin, Kaman - with an aging but rejuvinated Baron coming off the bench for a crazy fast small ball lineup.”
Or……Griffin, Thorton, or Gordon will blow out an ACL at some point. Kaman continues to be overpaid and injured. Baron Davis continues to shoot them out of games at a low percentage. Due to injury Sebastian Telfair is a starter by the All Star break.
July 30th, 2009 at 1:09 am
or the Bobcats make the playoffs and Jordan returns to win another championship. MJ recently said he’ll stay retired, but admitted he likes people to think he could play again.
July 30th, 2009 at 1:23 am
Pete Mickeal blogs, “going to the NBA would be a step back for me.”
http://blogs.hoopshype.com/blogs/mickeal/2009/07/29/europe-can-be-a-great-career-choice/
July 30th, 2009 at 8:20 am
“I think they thought I was crazy.”
You are crazy. Assclown.
July 30th, 2009 at 8:30 am
“Just heard on KJR the Portland Trailblazers WILL NOT play a preseason game at the Key Arena this fall. Clint must be so pissed.”
Disappointed, but not pissed. I’m more disappointed in seeing the leadership of SOS endorse the only mayoral challenger to vote in favor of allowing Clay to buy his way out of the Sonics lease with Seattle, Jan Drago. Talk about some backasswards leadership. Oh, and I’d like to state for the record that I have never ever said anything against Brian Robinson’s family since he accused me of that in a previos post in an overdramatic attempt to gain sympathy while painting me as some sort of villain.
Its nice to see I still garner so much attention on here, though. But please don’t worry about me, “friends” - I’m just going to head to BC for the Suns-Blazers preseason game instead and take the plunge on some Blazers season tix. I’ll be okay. Best of luck with the documentary. I’ll try to make some time for it in between watching the Blazers storm deep into the playoffs and rooting on the individual performance of Steve Nash.
July 30th, 2009 at 8:33 am
Those posts aren’t from me.
- the real Clint.
July 30th, 2009 at 9:51 am
In case you missed it, SeaTimes profile of Kevin Calabro from yesterday. Includes 2 minutes of his most famous clips — all Sonics calls, except for 1 Sounders call.
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/sports/2009555379_voicescalabro29.html
July 30th, 2009 at 9:55 am
ah Clint, it’s sheep like you who you help Stern sleep at night.
July 30th, 2009 at 10:53 am
what a loser
July 30th, 2009 at 11:14 am
i really don’t see Griffin being in Durant’s league tho. he’s a tweener who relied heavily on athletic dominance in college.
- How on earth is a 6′10″ and 251lb…20 year old a “tweener”?
Or……Griffin, Thorton, or Gordon will blow out an ACL at some point.
- Menace, this was my point…Griffin may not end up great. But, to use past injury history of the Clips as a factor doesn’t make too much sense. Im sure you are kind of joking…but it is becoming amazingly obvious that people are waaaaaaay underestimating how good Blake Griffin is..and not giving him any benefit for playing a much more premium position than KD.
July 30th, 2009 at 11:47 am
… or they’re just very very deep inside KD’s jock.
July 30th, 2009 at 12:04 pm
sticks and stones make break my bones but names will never hurt me.
I am rubber, you are glue, bounces off me and sticks to YOU(whoever you are).
church.
July 30th, 2009 at 12:05 pm
haha maybe my oklahoma hate is just coming out, but i think nobody could match up with Griffin’s athleticism in college and he’ll be faced with a lot better defenders than Hasheem Thabeet in the paint every single night. i could be wrong of course.
Durant (06-07 college #s)
G Min Pts FG 3PT FT Ast Reb Blk Stl
35 35.9 25.8 47.3 40.4 81.6 1.3 11.1 1.9 1.9
Griffin (08-09 college #s)
G Min Pts FG 3PT FT Ast Reb Blk Stl
35 33.3 22.7 65.4 37.5 59.0 2.3 14.4 1.2 1.1
July 30th, 2009 at 12:16 pm
I think Blake Griffin is real good. Real good. I’ve never said anything negative about him at all.
I do think its interesting how Myk thinks KD is a #2 and B Griffin is a future star who hasn’t played a real NBA game yet.
I’m totally joking about the ACL blowouts. Certainly hope that doesn’t happen to anyone. But it wouldn’t shock me one bit.
I truly do believe there is a Clippers curse.
Simmons:
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/090624&sportCat=nba
July 30th, 2009 at 1:51 pm
I do think its interesting how Myk thinks KD is a #2 and B Griffin is a future star who hasn’t played a real NBA game yet.
- If the Clippers win 30 games over the next two years then I will readjust my feelings towards Griffin. My bigger reason why I question KD’s superstar status is that at this point he has proven he doesn’t have a position. He is too frail to defend the three and too slow to defend the two. Therefore, his offensive contribution is negated by his defensive contribution.
It is pretty clear that Griffin has a position. So, if can be even average defender then he is going a long ways torwards surpassing KD as a superstar.
If anyone has followed the Mariners they’ve shown that defense is just as important as offense.
July 30th, 2009 at 1:52 pm
KD and BG’s college numbers are intersting to compare…who’d have thought that Blake would have almost double the A/PG and Durant would have almost double the B/PG
July 30th, 2009 at 2:21 pm
I just think its interesting that unproven players like Westbrook and the Griffin get the benefit of the doubt, while the 21 year old, top ten scorer, who is tearing up the Olympic training camp gets the criticism.
July 30th, 2009 at 2:33 pm
“He is too frail to defend the three and too slow to defend the two. Therefore, his offensive contribution is negated by his defensive contribution.”
So KD is solely responsible for giving up 25 + ppg on D. Thats a pretty bold statement.
This is greatly exaggerated just because its the weakest part of his game. Its not like he’s a JJ Redick or a Ridnour type defender who other teams immediately attack because their D is so poor and they are a liability. Is he really that bad? He can’t be worse than Rashard Lewis or Ray can he?
July 30th, 2009 at 2:52 pm
So KD is solely responsible for giving up 25 + ppg on D. Thats a pretty bold statement.
- If you’ve watched him I’m saying its a pretty bold statement that you disagree. Could he be protected? Sure…he gets a guy like KG behind him he’d probably be like Rashard Lewis.
He can’t be worse than Rashard Lewis or Ray can he?
- He is probably equal to them…and were either of them top 5 superstars in the league?
July 30th, 2009 at 2:54 pm
I just think its interesting that unproven players like Westbrook and the Griffin get the benefit of the doubt, while the 21 year old, top ten scorer, who is tearing up the Olympic training camp gets the criticism.
- The only reason he is getting criticism is because Im saying that he is a good, but not great player. I’m not saying that he’s bad (except on defense)…he’s just not a top 5 player, IMO…top 5 players make their teams better, I find it impossible to see an argument that he has made his team better.
July 30th, 2009 at 2:55 pm
“Everyone who was watching from our group said you could tell that Durant was a little bit on a mission — and that’s good for them to see that; it picks everybody up,” Krzyzewski said. “He’s that versatility guy, and the other thing is he’s a shooter, and with the way we were playing defense for most of the Olympics, with his length, he could be a heck of a defender.
July 30th, 2009 at 2:57 pm
Clints gone dude. Pretty sure nobody is claiming top 5.
July 30th, 2009 at 2:59 pm
Almost always the greatest players in our league are drafted very high in the draft. By definition those teams aren’t very good when he comes along. How many of them have not made their teams better by the second year? A very tiny sample size (Allen Iverson is about the only I can see…)
I know you consider this team talentless…but it isn’t the worst team ever created (minus KD) if that was the case it wouldn’t have actually been over 500 while he was out…and if that is the case then wonder boy Presti doesn’t deserve any of the praise he gets.
July 30th, 2009 at 3:01 pm
Consider me skeptical of the “he’s been working really hard during the summer” puff pieces that come out. Especially when you see this paragraph:
Durant, along with Andre Iguodala and Jeff Green, is now back for his third consecutive summer of practices with the so-called Select Team, and his familiarity and comfort level with the Team USA system were superior to that of anyone else on the court Thursday. Others who caught the coaches’ eyes included Rudy Gay, Derrick Rose, Eric Gordon and JaVale McGee, and several team insiders said they were surprised how spry Greg Oden looked.
So…amongst his peers he’s been doing ok…its not like he’s lighting up Kobe and LeBron
July 30th, 2009 at 3:02 pm
Clints gone dude. Pretty sure nobody is claiming top 5.
- Do you consider him someone who would be the superstar that could lead his team to a Championship? Is he your cornerstone player if you could start a franchise?
July 30th, 2009 at 3:13 pm
Here are KD’s On Court/Off Court stats:
Minutes 2885 1074 72%
Offense: Pts per 100 Poss.
On Court 103.2
Off Court 103.9
Defense: Pts per 100 Poss.
On Court: 112.6
Off Court: 104.4
So, the team does the same offensively no matter what…but when he’s on the court the team is 8 pts worse. That’s pretty bad.
July 30th, 2009 at 3:46 pm
“I know you consider this team talentless…but it isn’t the worst team ever created (minus KD) if that was the case it wouldn’t have actually been over 500 while he was out…and if that is the case then wonder boy Presti doesn’t deserve any of the praise he gets.”
Find me a less experienced roster with better results. Its probably impossible. I’m still a believer that this is a team game and the team must improve. You can’t give the credit to just one player.
Westbrook has a load of talent, skill, and upside but he isn’t good yet. He shot under .400 and almost led the league in turnovers. He was the second or third best player.
Did Jeff Green get any better at all? I have no idea. His numbers jumped slightly but shouldn’t that be expected when you get more minutes and start more games?
Durants game clearly makes a jump and its his fault they didn’t win more?
If OKC improves this year can we pencil in the credit to Harden?
July 30th, 2009 at 3:53 pm
Durants game clearly makes a jump and its his fault they didn’t win more?
- So the rest of the team got worse? That’s our big disconnect…you claim he made a “jump”, but then you don’t expect that to have any impact on the team. It literally had zero impact…how big of a jump can he have made if it had no impact?
Do you really not think that in the NBA a player cannot will his teams to victories? Does Durant’s age factor into the youngest team in the league? Or, if I could find another team that had a star player and the rest were young would that count?
If OKC improves this year can we pencil in the credit to Harden?
- I dunno…the bigger question is if a guy like Westbrook turns in to a 20 PER player does he get the credit or does KD…
July 30th, 2009 at 3:53 pm
Do those On Court/Off Court numbers cause any concern in your eyes at all??
July 30th, 2009 at 4:01 pm
Here’s what I think about KD…you’ll never see his team when a title when he is obviously the best player (a’la Kobe, MJ, probably LeBron…and maybe DWade). Instead, it will be an instance where he is the Paul Pierce to KG, or the Manu Ginobolli to Tim Duncan.
That isn’t calling KD…its just saying I don’t think his skills are such that allow him to impose his will on the team…and that (to me) is what makes a great player great and another player good.
July 30th, 2009 at 4:10 pm
^
|
|
Crazytalk
too bad for us, but KD is the real thing, and will be up there with LBJ, Paul, and Howard as far as the new-wave of NBA superstars
July 30th, 2009 at 4:27 pm
Part of the fun of the NBA can be seeing players and teams grow and develop and speculating along the way….
My 2 cents….. KD is going to be a superstar - a guy who is the #1 player on his team - a guy who in a few years will be in the conversation when people ask …. “Who are the top 5 players in the NBA”.
Take the stats and the loses by the Sonics/thunder in his first 2 years with a grain of salt - looking at the big context of the crap players, coaches, transitions and overall scene KD was stuck with - and then looking at the hints of true greatness - I see a guy who can take over games and teams and who will be the real deal for a long time. A superstar - top 5 guy in the league type of player.
Right now you ask - who are the top 5 players you get LeBron, Kobe, CP3 & Wade in almost every conversation - 5 years ago is was KG, Duncan, Dirk etc. …. in a few years KD will be recongnized as a player of that caliber as he enters his prime.
Just my sense - he is special.
July 30th, 2009 at 4:36 pm
Myk,
How is it that Bird and Magic managed to be cornerstones of great teams when they obviously had defensive liabilities?
July 30th, 2009 at 4:49 pm
“He is too frail to defend the three and too slow to defend the two. Therefore, his offensive contribution is negated by his defensive contribution.”
Correction: he was too frail to defend the three when he entered the league as a 19 year old. Rashard and Derrick McKee had similar builds when they entered the league but eventually spent quite a bit of time defending the 4. Rashard added somewhere around 15 pounds of muscle. Why is it that you assume KD won’t bulk up and get a lot stronger?
July 30th, 2009 at 4:53 pm
too bad for us, but KD is the real thing, and will be up there with LBJ, Paul, and Howard as far as the new-wave of NBA superstars
Seems more like a Vince Carter type to me (scores alot, wins little).
(But now that Carter will be playing next to a legit superstar, he may finally have a chance.)
It’s easy to look at scoring stats and declare a player a superstar. It’s all a bunch of empty talk without the wins though.
July 30th, 2009 at 4:56 pm
“…he gets a guy like KG behind him he’d probably be like Rashard Lewis.”
At the age of 20 and wthout the benefit of any real help, he’s already surpassed Rashard in most ways.
July 30th, 2009 at 4:58 pm
Rashard and Derrick McKee had similar builds when they entered the league but eventually spent quite a bit of time defending the 4. Rashard added somewhere around 15 pounds of muscle. Why is it that you assume KD won’t bulk up and get a lot stronger?
- Rashard can guard 4s cause he has the best Center in the league covering for all his mistakes. If OKC gets a Center of similar potential then KD isn’t the same liabilty…but that also means he isn’t a cornerstone. Besides, is comparing him to Rashard smart when talking about top players.
Right now you ask - who are the top 5 players you get LeBron, Kobe, CP3 & Wade in almost every conversation - 5 years ago is was KG, Duncan, Dirk etc. …. in a few years KD will be recongnized as a player of that caliber as he enters his prime.
- Why will Durant come in ahead of Howard, Roy, Ming, Gasol…etc.
The big question…what makes Durant better than Danny Granger? They are essentially the same exact player. They are both really good…but is anyone saying that Indiana is destined for greatness cause Granger is on their team?
July 30th, 2009 at 5:02 pm
How is it that Bird and Magic managed to be cornerstones of great teams when they obviously had defensive liabilities?
- I have no idea if Bird or Magic were definsive liabilities. There stat pages would say you are off base:
Bird:
Defensive Rating: 1979-80 NBA 98.2 (6)
Defensive Rating: 1981-82 NBA 99.4 (7)
Defensive Rating: 1983-84 NBA 100.8 (2)
Defensive Rating: 1984-85 NBA 102.8 (8)
Defensive Rating: 1985-86 NBA 99.4 (4)
Career NBA 101.4 (85)
Career 101.4 (90)
1981-82 NBA All-Defensive (2nd)
1982-83 NBA All-Defensive (2nd)
1983-84 NBA All-Defensive (2nd)
Steals 1980-81 NBA 161 (9)
Steals 1983-84 NBA 144 (10)
Steals 1985-86 NBA 166 (8)
Steals Career NBA 1556 (26)
Steals Career 1556 (28)
Johnson is a bit more likely…but he still:
Steals per/game 1979-80 NBA 2.4 (5)
Steals per/game 1980-81 NBA 3.4 (1)
Steals per/game 1981-82 NBA 2.7 (1)
Steals per/game 1982-83 NBA 2.2 (8)
Steals per/game 1983-84 NBA 2.2 (5)
Steals per/game Career NBA 1.9 (15)
Steals per/game Career 1.9 (17)
Defense win shares: 1981-82 NBA 4.9 (7)
Defense win shares: Career NBA 45.3 (39)
Defense win shares: Career 45.3 (42)
July 30th, 2009 at 5:03 pm
At the age of 20 and wthout the benefit of any real help, he’s already surpassed Rashard in most ways.
- Offensively…yes…defensively absolutely not…
July 30th, 2009 at 5:39 pm
The big question…what makes Durant better than Danny Granger? They are essentially the same exact player. They are both really good…but is anyone saying that Indiana is destined for greatness cause Granger is on their team?
He really isn’t at this point, they basically gave identical performances the past two seasons. Granger is 5 1/2 years older though. DGs window to improve his game or even play at a similiar level might be 5-6 years wide - KD might have 11-12 years, big difference.
If everything we’ve seen/know about Blake Griffin was exactly the same except he was 5-6 years older than he is now, would you still value him as highly or view his upside as positively?
July 30th, 2009 at 5:44 pm
“- Rashard can guard 4s cause he has the best Center in the league covering for all his mistakes.”
This misses the point. I responded to your contention that KD is too frail to guard NBA 3s.
Rashard, who entered the league as a skinny tall guy, has developed his strength to the point where he can bang not only with NBA small forwards but also with NBA power forwards.
July 30th, 2009 at 5:56 pm
Bird was a slow defender and was known for his tendency to rely on team defense. The defensive rating system, which refers to points allowed per 100 possessions, doesn’t seem to tell that story.
July 31st, 2009 at 11:21 am
Rashard, who entered the league as a skinny tall guy, has developed his strength to the point where he can bang not only with NBA small forwards but also with NBA power forwards.
- But, he’s not…that is the point. If he didn’t have Dwight Howard covering his mistakes he’d have no chance to defend the 4.
Bird was a slow defender and was known for his tendency to rely on team defense. The defensive rating system, which refers to points allowed per 100 possessions, doesn’t seem to tell that story.
- But, he also was 2nd team all defense three years in a row??
July 31st, 2009 at 11:24 am
If everything we’ve seen/know about Blake Griffin was exactly the same except he was 5-6 years older than he is now, would you still value him as highly or view his upside as positively?
- Im not someone who expects a player to get significantly better multiple times in the league. That is a big problem most people have. I remember hearing how it was just a given that Robert Swift was going to be a double/double guy because well he was young and you had to assume improvement.
Regarding BG and KD…we haven’t seen BG play…but…
If BG can average 22 and 12 and play decent defense…I’d take that over KD averaging 30ppg and being a horrible defender. A scoring wing is basically the easiest position in the league to fill.
July 31st, 2009 at 11:26 am
“Offensively…yes…defensively absolutely not…”
Rashard Lewis for my money is right up there as one of the worst defensive players I’ve ever seen.
“I dunno…the bigger question is if a guy like Westbrook turns in to a 20 PER player does he get the credit or does KD…”
Clearly you have something against the guys game. Your in the minority. You’ve already pretty much decided that he shouldn’t get any credit solely based on numbers and wins.
July 31st, 2009 at 11:51 am
“Here’s what I think about KD…you’ll never see his team when a title when he is obviously the best player (a’la Kobe, MJ, probably LeBron…and maybe DWade). Instead, it will be an instance where he is the Paul Pierce to KG, or the Manu Ginobolli to Tim Duncan.”
Yet you say Westbrook could eventually be a #1 option. Even though he’s never been a #1 option and shot under .400, had no consistency distributing the ball, and was top 5 in turnovers.
KD puts up 25 a game, year 2, and is an Olympic team invite………. and he is destined to be a #2 option?
Doesn’t make sense to me. What’s the differentiating factor in this analysis?
July 31st, 2009 at 1:21 pm
It is easier to have an opinion on Durant, whatever it may be, than on Westbrook or Griffin because he has been in the league longer. His individual talent is obvious, but I am somewhat mystified as to why people are so sure that he is a lock to become an all-time, championship-level great when most players who fit that description that have also been drafted by bad or terrible teams have immediately made those teams better—not necessarily immediately championship contenders or even .500 teams, but at least somewhat respectable, around 36-46 or so. Nobody gets excited about Brandon Roy, but look at how much the Blazers have improved each season that he has been in the league.
I am a bit skeptical of the reasons people give for why Durant has not done that for the Sonics/Homewreckers. Is that just the sour grapes talking? Maybe. But I am actually pretty sure I would feel this way even if the team was still here.
In any case, I believe that next year is absolutely crucial for Durant. He will be 21 by the time the season starts, it will be his first full P.J.-free year, there may finally be a since of normalcy now that the team is in its second season in Vulture City, Westbrook and Green will presumably be better, Harden is supposed to be “NBA-ready,” and perhaps the losses of guys like Watson and Wilkins will be cases of addition by subtraction. No more excuses. If Durant and Co. can’t take a big step forward next year I think it will be time to seriously question how good he and his ’mates can be and whether Sam Presti really is Jerry West, Jerry Krause, Tex Schramm, Billy Beane, Theo Epstein, Pat Gillick, Albert Einstein, Isaac Newton, Shakespeare, Mozart, Alexander the Great, Luke Skywalker, and Jack Armstrong all rolled into one.
July 31st, 2009 at 1:44 pm
“Seems more like a Vince Carter type to me (scores alot, wins little).”
Remember when people used to seriously consider him, not Kobe, as the next Jordan? That alone should teach us a lesson about anointing someone so early in his career before he’s taken a team anywhere.
Still, even Carter improved the Raptors in his first two years far more than Durant has improved his team. Toronto went from 16-66 in 1997-98 to 23-27 in the lockout-shortened 1999 season (which projects to about 38-44 over 82 games) to 45-37 in 1999-2000.
July 31st, 2009 at 1:56 pm
As far as the Bird comparisons go: however one assesses the Hick from French Lick’s defense (Charles Barkley used to say that he himself would only be the second-worst defensive player in the league until Bird retired), one can’t deny this: in his rookie season he took a team that had been at 32-50 and 29-53 the previous two seasons and made them a 61-21 championship contender. The next year they won the title after adding McHale and Parish. Granted, Bird had better teammates than Durant, but most of those teammates had already been on the team when it was so bad. He did also have a better coach (Bill Fitch), but Fitch also certainly had his share of bad teams.
July 31st, 2009 at 2:11 pm
The better the player…..the more pressure, hate, and criticism. I guess its a compliment in a way.
I’m just not gonna write off a 6′10″ 20 year old who put up 25 ppg quite yet. Long long long way to go. The glass is more full than empty at this point.
July 31st, 2009 at 2:27 pm
Menace, you’re right. Myk has his mind made up. I give up.
JAS, I’m not annointing KD as a great or future great player and I don’t see much or any of that happening here. For me the question is whether or not he has the potential to be a great player. I think he does.
Regarding making the team better: I’ve never seen a team disassembled and uprooted the way the Blunder were the past two years. I’m just surprised that KD, Westbrook and Green didn’t crumble.
This year: the Blunder will probably have a rookie, a second year player, 3 third year players and a journeyman starting. The bench consists of more young players and a few journeymen. There is utterly no reason to expect them to win many games.
Thanks for helping to make my point about Bird’s defense.
July 31st, 2009 at 2:48 pm
Clearly you have something against the guys game. Your in the minority. You’ve already pretty much decided that he shouldn’t get any credit solely based on numbers and wins.
- Nooooooooo…all i have said is that he hasn’t done anything to justify the praise he is getting at this time…and that he plays an easy to replace position. Wingmen are a dime a dozen. You need to be LeBron level good to be worth more than a top PF, C or PG.
KD puts up 25 a game, year 2, and is an Olympic team invite………. and he is destined to be a #2 option?
- You mean like how Luke Ridnour got an invte…or that Jeff Green got an invite? Perhaps I should step back from my Westbrook analysis…im much more willing to say he might not turn out.
July 31st, 2009 at 2:50 pm
I am somewhat mystified as to why people are so sure that he is a lock to become an all-time, championship-level great when most players who fit that description that have also been drafted by bad or terrible teams have immediately made those teams better—not necessarily immediately championship contenders or even .500 teams, but at least somewhat respectable, around 36-46 or so. Nobody gets excited about Brandon Roy, but look at how much the Blazers have improved each season that he has been in the league
- This is EXACTLY my point…I think KD will be a very good player. You guys seem to feel like Im saying he is a bust or that he sucks. He doesn’t suck…but people also act like he can turn out to be the #1 on a championship team and he certainly hasn’t acted like one.
July 31st, 2009 at 2:51 pm
I’m just not gonna write off a 6′10″ 20 year old who put up 25 ppg quite yet. Long long long way to go. The glass is more full than empty at this point.
- How is comparing a guy to Manu Ginobboli or Paul Pierce writing the guy off?
July 31st, 2009 at 3:01 pm
Regarding making the team better: I’ve never seen a team disassembled and uprooted the way the Blunder were the past two years. I’m just surprised that KD, Westbrook and Green didn’t crumble.
- In this day an age do we really consider “uprooting” a franchise to be this huge excuse? In 05-06 Chris Paul played his first season in the league. He joined a team that went 18-64 and had a hurricane move the team to Oklahoma City right before the season started. His team went 38-44 (a 20 game improvement).
Here was his roster (with years experience)
12 Chris Andersen 4yrs
33 Brandon Bass 0yrs
42 P.J. Brown 12yrs
45 Rasual Butler 3yrs
5 Speedy Claxton 4yrs
21 Marcus Fizer 5yrs
44 Marc Jackson 5yrs
43 Linton Johnson 2yrs
15 Maciej Lampe 2yrs
6 Arvydas Macijauskas 0yrs
24 Desmond Mason 5yrs
10 Bostjan Nachbar 3yrs
25 Moochie Norris 8yrs
3 Chris Paul 0yrs
23 J.R. Smith 1yrs
1 Kirk Snyder 1yrs
4 Jackson Vroman 1yrs
30 David West 2yrs
34 Aaron Williams 11yrs
Are you trying to argue that roster is 15 wins better than this years Thunder team…18 wins better than last year’s team?
The only other star on that team was David West. Before Paul got there he averaged 6.2 ppg. Was PJ Brown better than Joe Smith who was on the Thunder roster this year? What about Wally Z? Does this team have any other high lotto picks on the team?
I understand there is an attachment to KD…in someways Im sure many people consider him “Seattle’s”…you can lower expectations all you want. But, great players make their teammates better and excusing KD from that shows that he isn’t a great player.
July 31st, 2009 at 3:02 pm
Thanks for helping to make my point about Bird’s defense.
- So there was an error in the balloting that gave him four 2nd team all defense honors? Do you think KD will ever be considered for even one??
July 31st, 2009 at 3:53 pm
Myk,
Yes, the Hornets did also go through turmoil and didn’t have a strong roster. Did their starters consist of 2 second year players, 2 rookies (I realize that Kyle Weaver didn’t start all year) and a marginal center? Was their point guard a natural point guard or a guy who was trying to prove he should play the position and who was making lots of turnovers and other errors in the process? Were the veterans on the team road kill the way they were on the Blunder? How would you expect any NBA team to win 38 games with so little experience among the starters and so little help from their veterans? Had the Hornets been subjected to a year of P.J.? How would you expect KD to overcome all of that that?
July 31st, 2009 at 3:58 pm
I read up more on Bird’s defense. I’ll admit that even though he was slow, he apparently played D well during his prime.
July 31st, 2009 at 4:12 pm
“But, great players make their teammates better and excusing KD from that shows that he isn’t a great player.”
He’s not a great player but has played remarkably well for a 20 year old on a bad, extremely inexperienced team. I’m just suggesting that you give him and his team some time to develop before deciding his ceiling.
July 31st, 2009 at 4:24 pm
Paul and Lebron are once in a lifetime type players. Freaks with an unnatural feel for the game. KD isn’t like that. In no way am I saying he’s that type of player. Its OK to not be that type of player. Not many are. You could put any four players around those guys and have a chance. If you have phenom expectations like that then a majority of players are going to disappoint you.
Beyond the Hornets are there any other examples? All other impact rookies have had more help. All.
KD comes in and his #2 is Chris Wilcox. Does Ray Allen and KD equate to more wins. I guarantee it does.
Take Randolph off Roy’s rookie year team. Should they be expected to win when the #2 guy is Jarret Jack, Aldridge, or Travis Outlaw?
He’s 20. I’m not crowning him a great player yet by any means. But how can you be critical thus far considering his teams have been complete garbage. He’s 20 years old.
Pretty sure he can get better at defense. Look at Carmelo. It is possible. He’s not Luke Ridnour.
July 31st, 2009 at 4:33 pm
“Are you trying to argue that roster is 15 wins better than this years Thunder team…18 wins better than last year’s team? ”
15 wins better? Not sure. But I would take Desmond Mason, Claxton (at the time), and West over Wilcox, Wally, and Earl Watson. Wouldn’t you?
July 31st, 2009 at 4:33 pm
Menace you are correct.
July 31st, 2009 at 5:05 pm
Im not someone who expects a player to get significantly better multiple times in the league. That is a big problem most people have. I remember hearing how it was just a given that Robert Swift was going to be a double/double guy because well he was young and you had to assume improvement…
If BG can average 22 and 12 and play decent defense…I’d take that over KD averaging 30ppg and being a horrible defender…
I agree entirely. I suppose the difference then comes in how much we expect/or need him to improve defensively - I don’t think he needs to take multiple significant leaps to bring him to adequate. With the drafting of Harden, I think we’ve seen the end of the experiment with him at 2 which was a total failure on that end IMO. If part of his problem defensively against 3’s is just putting on a bit of weight to not get muscled around as much, than this is one area getting older and having time most certainly should help.
If he improves at a moderate pace defensively over the next 3-5 seasons, has an increased scorers savvy just from more experience and adds those things to his natural ability to score at will against anyone - he’ll be a bonafide #1 option IMO that would be capable of leading a team to a title.
as for BG, averages of 22 and 12 would be super impressive - expecially considering I could only come up with 7 guys who have done it in the past 20 years or so and they are all top 50 of all time players (Duncan, Hakeem, Shaq, Robinson, Barkley, Malone, Garnett) - I’m sure I’m forgetting a few. I’m not willing to assume he’ll accomplish even close to this though until I see some results.
You definately made me think though, if Griffin did put up 22 and 12 with solid D it would be almost a no-brainer to take him over basically any wing in the league save maybe Lebron. But what if he ends up more like Xavier McDaniel? or Elton Brand? Solid stats, solid games, all-star level players - but would you trade Durant for those guys??? Hindsight is 20/20, but I personally would rather build my team around what I know of Durant than either of those guys at this point.
July 31st, 2009 at 5:25 pm
I consider Dwight Howard a top 5 player. I think his presents in the paint makes his teammates better. His rookie year they won 15 more games than the previous T-Mac/Juwan Howard two headed monster, but that had more to do with Grant Hill and Steve Francis.
Regardless his numbers have gone up every year. The first three years records are pretty similar.
Year Record Teammates
04-05 36-46 Steve Francis, Grant Hill, Turk, Jameer Nelson
05-06 36-46 same as above
06-07 40-42 Hill, Turk, Nelson
07-08 52-30 Shard, Nelson, Turk
08-09 59-23 Shard, Nelson/Alston, Turk
Sometimes it takes time……..and teammates.
July 31st, 2009 at 7:02 pm
15 wins better? Not sure. But I would take Desmond Mason, Claxton (at the time), and West over Wilcox, Wally, and Earl Watson. Wouldn’t you?
- Before that season…im pretty sure it’d be close to a wash. West wasn’t anything special until Paul came along. Mason has always been an average wing palyer…I wouldn’t say he is any better then Wally and Claxton played the same position as Paul. There might be some arguments on the experience stand point…but I really can’t see how you’d argue that the NO roster is more talented than the Sonics/Thunder one…
July 31st, 2009 at 7:04 pm
I agree entirely. I suppose the difference then comes in how much we expect/or need him to improve defensively - I don’t think he needs to take multiple significant leaps to bring him to adequate.
- If KD can become a good enough defensive player where his offensive production is much better than the guy he defends production then i agree he is a much better player. The difference is that I dont believe that many players take huge steps forward getting better at defense.
It actually usually works in the opposite…
July 31st, 2009 at 7:05 pm
This is an interesting debate (at least to me)…It allows you to think about how important different aspects of the game and experience play into team success.
August 1st, 2009 at 11:56 am
“as for BG, averages of 22 and 12 would be super impressive - expecially considering I could only come up with 7 guys who have done it in the past 20 years or so and they are all top 50 of all time players (Duncan, Hakeem, Shaq, Robinson, Barkley, Malone, Garnett) - I’m sure I’m forgetting a few. I’m not willing to assume he’ll accomplish even close to this though until I see some results. ”
Changing it to 20-10 –
Chris Bosh did it last year.
Shawn Marion and Elton Brand did it in 2005-06
(Others in the last 20 years include Chris Webber, Patrick Ewing, and Larry Johnson (once)).
Looking this list, Cage, I have to agree with your main argument, it would be impressive to join that group.
August 1st, 2009 at 12:15 pm
“(DBF) It’s easy to look at scoring stats and declare a player a superstar. It’s all a bunch of empty talk without the wins though.”
Wins will come as the individual AND the team get better. Last year they started a rookie at PG and SG (weaver was a rook, right?), second year players at SF and PF…. well you get the point. And take out the horrible beginning, and they still had a pretty good year. Add to the fact that Durant, a kid lighter than my paperweight, had a better season than any in Lewis’ (for example) career while being relied upon to lead (at 20), and OKCers have gotta be excited. All the talk about Durant not having skill or the elite “feel for the game” is bull. Anyone saying that isn’t watching the dude play and grow.
Hey, I’m just as bitter about what happened as the next guy, but let’s be honest here: we lost out big time, and Durant IS heading for superstardom. Of course, ultimately, none of our yapping here will matter. Only time will tell.
August 2nd, 2009 at 12:45 pm
If KD can become a good enough defensive player where his offensive production is much better than the guy he defends production then i agree he is a much better player. The difference is that I dont believe that many players take huge steps forward getting better at defense
I think it already is. When at the 3 posistion, his per 48 scoring is 31.2 pts with a PER of 23.8. Opposing 3’s are held to 19.8 pts with a PER of 15.7 - he certainly is taking a lot more looks at the hoop than the players guarding him but you can’t say his offensive production isn’t significantly better. If he was playing atrocious matador D, the #’s would show up here a bit more than they do IMO and PER would be way higher. Kobe has a higher spread as he scores more, but gives up more pts per 48 and a higher eFG% (also holds SGs to a lower PER). But when KD plays SG, the #’s totally support him giving up just as much as he produces.
I think the on/off court #’s for Durant should be taken with a grain of salt
on/off court offensive pts scored per 100 possessions: 103.2/103.9
on/off court defensive pts scored per 100 possessions: 112.6/104.4
These admittedly look disgusting. However, the #1 lineup played by OKC last year included a rookie (westbrook), Kristic (no training camp, first game Jan 7th), and Thabo (first game Feb 21st). Green & Durant were the only guys who had ever played together before, throw in a coaching change and you have a defensive recipe for disaster. All those guys are young, inexperienced, and for the most part hadn’t played together at all, here are the off/def #’s for that lineup (which are horrible):
#1 - Westbrook-Sefolosha-Durant-Green-Krstic
offensive pts per 100 possessions: 96 pts
defensive pts allowed per 100 poss: 116 pts
What I think is interesting is looking at the the #2 & #3 lineups played by OKC and the corresponding off/def #’s.
#2 - Westbrook-Mason-Durant-Green-Collison
offsensive pts per 100 possessions: 115 pts
defensive pts allowed per 100 poss: 103 pts
#3 - Watson-Westbrook-Durant-Green-Collison
offsensive pts per 100 possessions: 113 pts
defensive pts allowed per 100 poss: 104 pts
Now those last two aren’t bad at all. Amazing what happens when you throw in some experienced vets/guys who have played together for more than a season. Really tough to point a finger and say “this player is responsible for the breakdown in D/the surge in offensive production,” but it certainly is worthy to note how bad the #1 lineup was together, some of the possible reasons for it, and how it could be skewing the #’s a bit.
Stats are tough, it is pretty easy to have an agenda going in and search out #’s that support a particular side of an argument. At worst, makes for an interesting discussion…
August 3rd, 2009 at 1:51 pm
“Before that season…im pretty sure it’d be close to a wash. West wasn’t anything special until Paul came along. Mason has always been an average wing palyer…I wouldn’t say he is any better then Wally and Claxton played the same position as Paul. There might be some arguments on the experience stand point…but I really can’t see how you’d argue that the NO roster is more talented than the Sonics/Thunder one…”
Take West out of the equation then. I’d rather have Mason, PJ Brown, and Claxton than Wilcox, Wally, and Watson.
Not saying they are more talented. Does talent equate to wins? Hot Sauce has all the talent in the world……but is he a good player? JR Smith has a 40 inch vertical but he’ll shoot you out of a game in a 2 minute span. Flip Murray and Wilcox have “talent”. Are they good?
Green and Westbrook have talent. But to this point they are avg players with very little consistency.