Sudden Optimism
Posted on Saturday, October 24th, 2009 at 7:20 am by Brian Robinson
So throughout this process a lot of people have told me that I don’t have a good read on what is going on. “The team is moving.” They would say, “Can’t you see that?”
I’m not stupid.
There have been significant stretches where the writing was on the wall. There was a long period where I knew the good guys were not winning. It is very, very tiring to try to fight the inevitable but there are times where you have to operate on faith and say that “there is still a chance, however slim, and I am going to stay focused on that.” So I went out there and I fought every day. For the most part my instints on this have been very accurate. I always thought we were going to take a settlement. I didn’t think that settlement would be what it wound up being, but I knew it was likely. I knew early that we were likely to get into a fallback position that nobody would like in which we gave up our team for a period to ensure a future. I felt that by fighting the hardest fight we could we would at least ensure that those terms were as good as possible. I also didn’t like that direction so figured I would fight it anyway.
So if you don’t trust my gut on this one then disregard this. That is OK.
My gut tells me that the process of getting a team back has progressed substantially.
The rumors are swirling out there. People with questions call me to know what I am hearing and people who traditionally have answers say “I’m really sorry but I can’t talk about it right now.” There is a rapidly increasing vibe of “Done deal, just sit back and wait until the announcement.”
So over the last couple of weeks we have had the SonicsGate premier, we got our time with GP, I have visited the NBPA offices in NY, had VERY limited communication with the league, and we have met with both candidates for mayor and for county executive. Very notable has been the change in politicians. They have gone from always talking about obstacles for an arena, why it can’t be done, who won’t let it be done, to talking about the reasons it should be done. Both candidates for County Executive were very enthusiastic in their support.
You may say “this is just the campaign” but I will tell you that it didn’t go this way in the last campaign. Virtually all candidates came in with the “I’m the best chance you have but it is going to be a struggle because if I do this then this guy is going to stand in my way. If you want my help you had better stay quiet.”
This year there is no request to stay quiet. Losing the Sonics contributed to Nickels losing his job. People don’t want to be lumped in.
I have this town figured out. People don’t participate in ideas until they have a pretty good idea whether they are going to succeed or fail. Our efforts to get people to save the Sonics failed because a huge percentage had decided that the deal was already done and the team already going to leave. It became a self fulfilling prophecy. Now these same people are clammering to get on board and be cheerleaders. Why? Because they know it is happening already. They see the writing on the wall and want to be able to say they were a part of it.
My feelings today. Monday am I will get out my personal candidate comments and Monday afternoon those of SOS should come out. Again I will say I am firmly in the camp of Mallahan and people MUST vote for Jesse Israel. Sports fans couuld not send a bigger message than bumping her over Lilcata.
October 24th, 2009 at 7:22 am
So before it gets said by someone else:
DAMN HAVE WE LOWERED OUR STANDARDS!
If you had told me 3 years ago that I would feel good and optimistic about a scenario where we lose out ream in 2009 and look at getting a team in/around 2012 I would have told you that scenario sucked.
We are were we are. If the process of a 2012 team could start in 2010 it would at least feel like the momentum never died.
October 24th, 2009 at 8:07 am
Nevertheless, it’s still good news! At least we are going the right direction. So, BR, in your gut feeling, what % you think it’s will get done?
October 24th, 2009 at 9:05 am
It was a good fight. There is no shame in getting beat if you landed plenty of hard punches. Yes, we wanted to be proud and say we saved all 3 of our teams. Round three didn’t turn out the way we wanted. Ten years from now we will all say it turned out better this way. If we get NHL hockey, I believe it will succeed.
The Cleveland Browns don’t even seem to most people like a replacement team anymore. I wish they would start winning, though.
October 24th, 2009 at 9:40 am
Small cities in western Washington State are putting a proposal together to present to the Governor to do something about the lack of flood insurance.
Oh ya, they are proposing a Special Session in December.
Q13 news at 9, on channel 10.
There ya go, not a rumor, but a report of an effort, for a really good reason.
The draft proposal for flooding is being drafted through the Insurance Commissioners office, if, big if there is a special session.
I posted this in the comments of my blog yesterday. I caught the tail end of this story at 9pm, then rewatched the 10pm report.
Anyway, the big “if” there is a Special Session would be December. The flood insurance has (I will say it) dried up.
The legislature is at work on resolving the hole in the budget.
I would not hold my breath, but this is the first report I have seen where anybody says they are working on a proposal for a Special Session.
Waiting until January for this would be a disaster.
https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=7180836226665074114&postID=2653696961144621686&page=1
October 24th, 2009 at 9:48 am
I am FULLY on board with Israel. I wish we could oust Chopp, but I am now fully against Mallahan.
October 24th, 2009 at 9:55 am
Hey Brian, 2 weeks ago at City Club in the mayoral debate both candidates were asked if the would support a Seattle Center levy in 2011, both said yes (good for them), the question I have is who is floating this levy idea? The question was too specific to be a random thing. I do see a desire to celebrate the World’s Fair, maybe this is part of it, I don’t know.
October 24th, 2009 at 11:06 am
I’ve voted in every election in King County since I was 18. I’ve never been a litmus test voter. Until now. I cast my ballot against Nickels for this reason and I will do so against Licata as well. Though Licata has received my votes in the past, he fails the test. He has Green & Gold Blood on his hands. He could cure cancer, AIDS and walk on water this weekend and still not get my vote. Ever. To politicians reading this blog: I have a long memory, and if I even hear a wild rumor that your are anti-Sonics, I will vote against you if I can, once and always. I would love to vote against Frank Chopp, but he is not in my district.
October 24th, 2009 at 11:16 am
2012??? Well, there goes my theory about the Key being used by a team while the real arena is being built elsewhere like the Grizzlies played in the Pyramid in Memphis while FedEx Arena was under construction. This means the people of Lower Queen Anne are totally being thrown under the bus. So much for the soft landing.
Did anybody notice Licata’s propaganda bulletin insert in the Stranger this week? If he’s so secure in his primary win, why does he feel the need to remind us that he is the messiah du jour in Seattle?
Also, a special session won’t even buy you a cup of coffee in this town. Have a nice day.
October 24th, 2009 at 6:20 pm
nobody has broken the Fred Brown level of seriousness yet by making a drawing, LOL! i heard the Sacramento rumor too but nothing official by any means. everyone seems to know someone in business who wants to make it happen behind the scenes.
but it does seem like people are willing to talk more favorably about it right now at local level. as soon as we have a funded arena plan we will be first in line for relocation talk, that much is for sure.
October 24th, 2009 at 7:03 pm
Great…first I had to wish for economic doom and gloom and now it will take a flood for me to get my special session.
How about we just wish for plague and pestilence to spur a special session…May god have mercy on my basketball tarnished soul.
October 24th, 2009 at 7:09 pm
Do we need to get some writin pens ready for more letters to power players? I wouldn’t mind an alternative to being the annoying voice of realism and pessimism.
October 24th, 2009 at 7:50 pm
Brian, I thought the same thing.
It is not normal to hear a story about flood insurance and think basketball.
October 24th, 2009 at 9:12 pm
Getting kicked in the balls ain’t so bad either.
October 24th, 2009 at 9:28 pm
Great…first I had to wish for economic doom and gloom and now it will take a flood for me to get my special session.
How about we just wish for plague and pestilence to spur a special session…May god have mercy on my basketball tarnished soul.
How Ironic Brian, It took Hurricane Katrina to flood out New Orleans and to see the Hornets move to OKC for 2 years and become an NBA town. Myabe this is all coming full circle.
October 24th, 2009 at 9:45 pm
So why the optimism? I’m confused… where can I read the rumor that this is a done deal, what’s going on?!? Am I reading a post from a year ago? Special session… huh?
October 24th, 2009 at 10:21 pm
So I think I just lost a big, long comment on the Seattle mayoral debate tonight on KOMO, but I think it was devoured. To summarize, a question was asked regarding Seattle Center and KeyArena and attitudes regarding their revitalization.
McGinn answered without talking about the arena or the Sonics. He talked about the arts and culture, attending Folklife and Bumbershoot, and hoping to bring a levy in front of the voters if it fits in the city’s budget. He also talked about how community centers around the city were included in the last Seattle Center renovation levy, and he’d like to see that again, as well as some Seattle public schools being used as community centers to bring down overhead costs so that more money could be allocated to “instruction of students.”
Mallahan talked about the World’s Fair first, mentioning that people were planning several events to celebrate the 50th anniversary of the World’s Fair to “promote Seattle internationally as a city with great culture and great arts.” After that, he did get to talking about KeyArena, saying it should be a focus for renovation and getting an NBA team back which he hoped would be called the Seattle Supersonics, so long as it was an “equitable public/private partnership” for the city.
I think Mallahan gets business. I don’t get the impression that McGinn does. He seems to be more from the “Seattle the artist colony” camp. If I’m being unfair to McGinn, I’m gladly open to correction, but if I had a vote, it would go to Mallahan. I’m the Ghost of Steve Scheffler, and I approved this message.
October 25th, 2009 at 12:19 am
- Good news to hear…
- BTW, on a slight follow up to my posts in the last thread. I’m a Liberal. The fact that Liberals control Western Washington and have controlled it for my entire lifetime and STILL don’t get anything done….is pretty big evidence that the Liberal part has a hard time getting things done. This isn’t a political slam…its the truth.
October 25th, 2009 at 9:39 am
I think the single most compelling argument that Susan Hutchinson made Friday (and I will tell you that she made a lot of them) was that diversity is good for the system. She pointed out how entrenched the political leadership of this state was and basically said “Do you think that the leadership in Olympia could have just punted and dropped the ball this badly if there had been someone else to call them out on it?”
You know she is right. Gregoire just let legislature do nothing because they are all on the same team and nobody wants to undermine that team. So instead they all just sit back and play prevent defense, worry about making anything that could be percieved as a mistake, and wind up doing very little.
Mallahan really gets it. McGinn I am starting to really worry about. What he said in our meeting does not match up with what he is saying publicly and that really brings up concerns about whether he is a guy who is just going to talk about concensus his entire term without accomplishing anything. I don’t want more prolonged debate and discussion. I want somebody to do something.
October 25th, 2009 at 2:15 pm
i’ve seen this shadow theater before, and believe it or not, it’s a good thing when the rumors start swirling. i’m right there about the ‘gut feeling,’ and still believe that the nba in seattle makes too much sense not to happen. face it, there are scads of markets which don’t really care about their nba teams. seattle was never one of those, and if/when sonics2 comes on line, we’ll be right up that the top in terms of passion.
bring. them. back.
October 25th, 2009 at 3:04 pm
what rumors is everyone hearing, i havent heard a thing , the special session?
October 25th, 2009 at 6:46 pm
Brian,
Thanks for the update. I still check out this site every few days to see what is going on and I am sure I am not the only one who has not forgotten. I saw an ad on King-5 for the opening game for the TrailBlazers last night and I had this sad feeling again that there will be another season without Sonics basketball. But I am keeping the faith that I will be back in those seats cheering them on again. : )
October 25th, 2009 at 9:29 pm
what is the status of the kings rumor? i heard it on the seattle times board that the rumor has been “debunked”. is this true?
October 25th, 2009 at 9:43 pm
Get r Done..SOMEONE!!
October 26th, 2009 at 10:07 am
My roommate is watching Desperate Housewives. It makes me sick on 2 leves. 1, it’s obviously the low point of our society and 2, it makes me think of Tony Parker, the San Antonio Spurs and Manu flopping all over the Sonics in the 2005 playoffs, especially game 5 in SA. If that happened to any other team it would have been national news. Instead he just gets applauded. He is what I hate about NBA basketball right now.
Back to politics. As much as I despise WA leadership for not approving a measly 75 million I despise the city more for passing this chance on to them knowing full well Olympia is a worthless black hole. The state doesn’t have nearly as much to gain by approving the renovation as Seattle does. My anger is with mayor 5 pennies for ever letting it come down to Olympia. It tells me he was never serious about getting it done. McGinn sounds even less hopeful. Someone said it before, McGinn seems like he wants to run a commune.
Mallahan for mayor.
October 26th, 2009 at 10:27 am
This is the rumor; http://forums.seattletimes.nwsource.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=44&t=154464&st=0&sk=t&sd=a
one person said it was debunked and said to come to this site for details, of which I see none.
October 26th, 2009 at 10:36 am
If that rumor turns out to be true, how happy is Spencer Hawes going to be?
October 26th, 2009 at 10:38 am
And the games begin tomorrow evening …. I suspect in the NBA horizon we will see ….
1. Attendance struggles will increase - combination of bad economy and Stern & Co. taking a great game and messing it up. Some cities will be fine but it will be ugly in many NBA cities this year.
2. A lockout will come unless the players union gives up significant portion of the $$$ pie and accepts a new reality of salaries going dDOWN.
3. Several NBA teams will be losing tons of $$$ and have to do some cash calls. More rumors than ever about teams being for sale, maybe moving etc.. The league will surely survive but some kind of shake-up is coming.
4. K. Durrant averages about 30 PPG - Westbrook & Green develop well - Thunder show improvement
5. Shaq sucks in Cleveland - that thing just does not work - but maybe L. James can carry them to the finals anyway - he is unreal. Either Celitcs, Cavs or Magic will reach finals from East - could be any of these 3 and no one else has a chance.
6. Lakers & Spurs battle it out with one of them going to finals - Denver fades and Karl implodes - Not sure what will happen in Utah or Portland - probably 45-50 win teams and lose in 2nd round of playoffs. Boozer will get hurt or traded or both - Oden will improve but we will see that he may become a good NBA player but he will never be a superstar - Dallas will continue to wonder why the hell they traded D. Harris AND two #1 draft picks for Jason Kidd.
7. Watson will suck in Indiana - Ridinour will suck with the Bucks - ridinour will suck a little less because he always was better than Watson -
8. Nene, Petro, Swift will all suck somewhere
9. If Harden of the Thunder emerges as a strong player with potential greatness and i sense the Thunder are on the way to something special I will have to work through my grief and anger - especially at Nickels and Gregoire and Stern - all over again.
10. Some great games - some playoff drama - some great players playing at the highest level. I miss the Sonics.
October 26th, 2009 at 10:42 am
Oh - 1 more thing I see coming in 2010….
Clay & Co. will have to settle their class action lawsuit filed on behalf of former Sonics season ticket holders - he will either settle or lose the case this winter - Some of Clay’s $$$$ will be sent back to Sonics fans and be a negative press note for Stern and the NBA. I think this lawsuit has credibility.
A small bit of justice for Sonics fans to celebrate is coming with this.
October 26th, 2009 at 11:50 am
I know we’re supposed to hate the Blazers, but I think this is really cool!
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2625/4029179907_0fd53a045a_o.png
October 26th, 2009 at 11:52 am
JJ,
I don’t know if I agree with #8. I saw Swift at Target in Issaquah on Saturday. Shouldn’t he be playing/practicing in a city with an NBA team? Early retirement… ?
October 26th, 2009 at 12:03 pm
That rumor is bunk. Dude has been spreading false rumors for a while now. He has no credibility.
Remember the whole “announcement at the all star break” thing that was floating around last season but turned out to be nothing? Yeah, same guy. Gets our hopes up for nothing but hot air.
October 26th, 2009 at 12:37 pm
John at 11:52….
Good point - I don’t know if any of these 3 guys are even in the league - maybe Petro in Denver?
My point was/is - they are all total busts - thank you Wally Walker & Rick Sund.
October 26th, 2009 at 1:02 pm
Seattle Times has a forum?
October 26th, 2009 at 1:03 pm
- I assume you meant Sene since Nene has actually been pretty decent the last two years. Sene is out of the league though…much to the shock of absolutely anyone who follows baskeball.
- What is sad about an impending lock out is that the owners already have one of the most friendly deals in sports and they STILL can’t make enough money.
October 26th, 2009 at 2:45 pm
Yes MYK - Sene … and you are right - the NBA owners can’t make this thing work because they have no clue and their leader is in denial while going from one power trip to another. You are right - it is sad.
October 26th, 2009 at 5:08 pm
please god, please bring back the sonics
October 26th, 2009 at 5:11 pm
Why should NBA fans have any optimism? I don’t understand. This is nothing we haven’t lived through and been dissapointed about before. Special session? For what… funding an arena? I
October 26th, 2009 at 5:22 pm
Brian Robinson Says:
October 26th, 2009 at 4:04 pm e
FYI I was on for three segments today along with Susan Hutchinson. Audio herel
http://www.kjram.com/cc-common/podcast/single_podcast.html?podcast=ian_furness.xml
Sorry its long.
October 26th, 2009 at 5:38 pm
http://www.dailythunder.com/2009/10/kevin-durants-brother-apparently-not-a-fan-of-oklahoma-city/#more-5495
probably already been posted, but please please please please durant bolt for NYC/DC in 2011. please screw that franchise over.
October 26th, 2009 at 6:11 pm
The worst part of this I think is yet to come. Maybe we do get a new team in the next few years…but I know some of you disagree but I truly believe OKC is gonna be really good. I think they will improve this year and start something truly special. From all KD’s twitter posts, he LOVES his team and they are all really close friends which could create chemistry on the court. Sorry but I don’t think he’s gonna leave when he gets the chance. And when the become a good contending team its going to be heartbreaking to me all over again. Hopefully I’m wrong.
October 26th, 2009 at 6:43 pm
3 things.
1. Kevin, you’re right those jerseys are sick!! Would have been cool to see a green and gold “Jet City” jersey or something. Then again Boeing is pulling a Sonics right now and leaving for a mid size market willing to give them everything. Supersonics as a name is becoming less relevant all the time.
2. Criminy, awesome link, thank you! You know Kevin Durant feels the same way. I hate how the site refers to the relocation of a beloved 41 year franchise as “the Seattle thing” as if it was just a minor point in the history. I despise what’s going on in OKC.
which leads me to…
3. t, I hope I’m wrong but I fear that could happen too. I cringe at the thought of the Blunder making the playoffs. It’s infuriating that to them the team is 100% theirs and rightfully so. Oh how I wish they knew.
October 26th, 2009 at 6:53 pm
OK, so I know this is weird, but I keep thinking of the relocation of the Sonics in terms of a tooth being pulled. I feel like the NBA came in with some massive pliers, without sedative or numbing, and just ripped it out leaving stinging nerves and a huge void. All because the toothbrush being used was a little frayed and we didn’t buy a new 500 million dollar electric tooth brush right when they demanded. I hate the NBA, even when I try I can’t watch their games. I feel like the NBA and its teams couldn’t care less about the fans the cities which host them. We are just a means to an end and will do what they want when they want with the fans, the teams, and the sport itself, as long as it means another dollar in their pocket. That’s not what Supersonics basketball was about when I was a fan.
October 26th, 2009 at 6:53 pm
I think the thing I’m least afraid of is OKC having a good team any time soon. They’re not even average, and they keep stockpiling at their stronger positions without filling any actual team needs.
As for KD, while I don’t think he hurts the team as much as the stats show, I also don’t think he’s a championship leader. His lack of defense puts him more in the mold of a Vince Carter or Adrian Dantley.
October 26th, 2009 at 6:55 pm
geez…if Seattle ever gets a team can we all make a policy that we won’t overanalyze the Tweets of all of our players and their family memebers?
October 26th, 2009 at 7:37 pm
Just heard the podcast, that’s the way have have to do this. Drop some serious f***kin dimes on these limpd**cks that took the team away and back those that will help the cause.
October 26th, 2009 at 7:47 pm
i see alot of reasons to vote against mcginn, not just basketball. it seems that he (mcginn) will RUIN the relationship between the city and state, if that is even possible. nickels was bad enough with the state, but it will be worse under mcginn.
October 26th, 2009 at 7:51 pm
why no polling in the mayors race? the last poll was about a week ago, and it showed mallahan clearly ahead. most of the polls have shown mallahan ahead, altough one of them it was a tie.
the last poll i saw was done before mcginn’s “flip flop” on the tunnel though.
October 26th, 2009 at 8:11 pm
LOL that’s funny I totally remember taking down like 4 tequilas in a quick order with Iain Furness and BR and everyone from SOS at M.S. downtown after losing our f’ng team to Nickels. The tequila was all I could do - I knew it was game over and all I had left was to wallow with these cats at the bar. Thanks Iain and BR for the memories.
October 26th, 2009 at 8:34 pm
Yes i think OKC will be a decent team this season and yes Aubrey McClendon and CHK will survive and prosper, those are just realistic facts. As for today I did enjoy BR and Furness along with Ms Hutchinson, and things really do sound pretty much better than they have in the past, but beyond the words and true facts?? I really don’t think we’re going to see the NBA in this town for quite a while, and yes we still need to flush out alot more sport hating public servants, whacking Nickles was a good start, but there is still a long road ahead. as for arena talk, personally I think the eastside would be a much better location, I’m seeing the Seattle metro area becoming more of a Minny/StPaul. As for the rest, I’m pretty much done with the NBA as a diehard type, I grew up in a hockey town and pretty much have gone back to my roots. for the most part I’m watching my beloved Pens on Center Ice and probaley the only NBA games I have watched in the past season was seeing the Thunder twice out of curiosity. But overall, I am a capitalist and I want to see a magnificent arena erected in this great city and I want to see it soon. And when the Sonics do come back one day, I may not be a season tix holder as I was, But I will support the only NBA team I ever rooted for.
October 26th, 2009 at 8:41 pm
I hope OKC wins a championship or two, then 5 to 10 years later, get ripped away from OKC by Sheboygan, WI
October 26th, 2009 at 8:59 pm
What leads anyone to think that the Blunder are going to have a good year?
Is it the fact that their depth at big man is horrendous? Or maybe it’s the collection of borderline D-Leaguers and “Senior Citizens” they have coming off the bench?
There is a lot more to go into, but I am not going to, because it is a waste of time. The Blunder are a 30 win team this year, and with the lockout coming up, the landscape of things is going to be completely different. There is no real reason that the Blunder will be competitive anytime soon.
October 26th, 2009 at 9:07 pm
Great interview, Brian. Thanks for sharing it with us.
October 26th, 2009 at 9:13 pm
“I hope OKC wins a championship or two, then 5 to 10 years later, get ripped away from OKC by Sheboygan, WI”
But only if they are able to reclaim the name “Redskins” which they used in their only season 1949-50 and all banners and trophies pertaining to their history.
October 26th, 2009 at 9:53 pm
I agree with Josh… Though he stole points from my blog. haha
The Blunder have no bench what so ever. I’d be nervous if some of those were on the 3rd string of a championship team.
Ollie, Livingston, Thomas, Sefalosha, Mullens, Ibaka?
That is their rotation off the bench… What are any of those guys going to do?
October 26th, 2009 at 10:17 pm
Good job Brian.
October 26th, 2009 at 10:19 pm
That is as much kjr as I have listen to in the past year.
October 26th, 2009 at 10:23 pm
Bobby Jackson retired.
October 26th, 2009 at 10:25 pm
Antonio Daniels was waved by the t-wolves.
October 26th, 2009 at 10:51 pm
Blake Griffin out indefinitely with a broken kneecap:
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/sports/2010141875_apbknclippersgriffin.html
I guess there is something to that Clippers curse.
October 26th, 2009 at 10:52 pm
Tickets still available for EVERY Thunder home game…nice renovation job.
http://tinyurl.com/yl4zqxu
October 26th, 2009 at 11:08 pm
“broken kneecap”, two words that always make me a little sick just reading the words.
October 26th, 2009 at 11:40 pm
Yep, looks like Griffin will miss his one homecoming trip to OKC… Guess those 2000+ tickets available for that game will not be going off the shelves.
…or any other of their games.
October 27th, 2009 at 12:27 am
interesting… “Sonics fan for Nick Licata”
http://dailyuw.com/2009/10/27/sonics-fan-nick-licata/
October 27th, 2009 at 12:58 am
- As usual…that NewsOK article was laughable…
- That Blake Giffin how does so much bad stuff happen to a team?
October 27th, 2009 at 8:16 am
I’ve been expecting bad news from the Clippers camp. Does the sun not rise in the East? A shame for Blake Griffin. The Clipper jinx is real. Believe it. It all goes back to the Buffalo Braves being relocated. Your turn awaits, Blunder fans. Karma.
October 27th, 2009 at 9:26 am
Their self proclaimed “loud city” nickname makes me want to vomit. Ask Bill Simmons, Charles Barkley, Karl Malone, Gary Payton etc what Key Arena was like.
October 27th, 2009 at 10:06 am
Besides Bobby Jackson and Antonio Daniels, Wally Szczerbiak is apparently eyeing retirement after gaining no interest as free agent.
What is the status of the Trail Blazers’ claim on this market? Last year they were on Comcast Cable, and this year apparently they are expanding to over-the-air TV on Channel 5.2! First game is tonight versus Houston….
http://www.king5.com/on-tv/tv-schedule
October 27th, 2009 at 10:49 am
My Sonics blood runs too deep to get behind the Blazers. I hope we get a team back, I just got done watching Sonicsgate and got all twisted up again.
October 27th, 2009 at 11:15 am
Clipper curse is real.
How many blown out knees, while Griffin’s isn’t fully blown yet, can one franchise have????
Livingston
Danny Manning
Ron Harper
etc etc etc
October 27th, 2009 at 11:34 am
Also notice that a lot of things are going wrong for Oklahoma too?
Steal a franchise and bad things happen.
I think there should be Durant injury watch.
October 27th, 2009 at 12:47 pm
Going into a contract year Durant will avoid contact that leads to injury, and actions that do not fill his stat sheet.
If you think the difference between his individual performance vs his +/- last year was bad, just wait until February. He, and Jeff Green, will hold the ball like Antonio Daniels (zing!).
October 27th, 2009 at 12:53 pm
Durant’s +/- wasn’t bad last year.
I think the key to the Thunder this year is actually Green/Westbrook…..not Durant. Their development will determine how much they improve this season.
You can pencil in Durant for 25 + and 7 rips. Can you pencil in any other player on the team for anything?
October 27th, 2009 at 12:53 pm
What’s going to be interesting is how their bench is going to be used. It’s a lot worse than it was last year.
I can’t wait til December rolls around and the starters are all logging 40+ minutes a night and are just dead tired.
October 27th, 2009 at 12:54 pm
Steal a franchise and bad things happen.
Does this mean Sonics 2.0 or whatever will be doomed?
October 27th, 2009 at 12:55 pm
Bill Simmon’s Clippers curse article. Its pretty scary. I will always be thankful for the Clips for providing us with Tom Chambers and Michael Cage though.
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/090624&sportCat=nba
October 27th, 2009 at 12:55 pm
That Licata article was pretty funny. No disrespect to the author but lemme break it down for you. There are 3 camps that support Licata - naive twentysomethings, obstructionist naysayers, and artsy fartsy pinky in the air types.
Nick talks a great game, I’ll give him that. Allow me to let you in on a secret. Successful politicians build consensus to achieve their goals. Councilmembers need the support of other councilmembers to do all these feel good projects Licata is fond of championing. Right now Nick has the support of nobody on the council. He’s been pissing off everyone he comes into contact with the last two years trying to claim some liberal high ground and it’s annoying. He is a man on an island and will continue to be if God forbid he wins another term. So if you want a lone voice grousing about everyone else’s legislation without offering anything substantive by all means vote Licata. He’s your man if you like your reps full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.
October 27th, 2009 at 2:11 pm
Durant’s +/- wasn’t bad last year.
Menance, we had an entire discussion on this board three threads down about an article that states:
And yet, a shocking piece of news: The Thunder have, over the last two years, consistently performed worse than normal when Durant is on the floor. Any way you slice the +/- numbers, he’s one of the Thunder’s worst players.
His +/- was -8.4.
To put that into perspective. Other players on his team had:
Durant: 73% of minutes -8.6
Green: 73% of minutes -2.8
Westbrook: 67% of minutes +3.6
Collison: 46% of minutes +1.0
Watson: 45% of minutes -1.6
Weaver: 29% of minutes +6.1
Kristic: 29% of minutes +0.7
This is the entire crux of the article that you posted your thoughts many times. You sure can write him down for 25pts and 7 rips a game. But, why is his team a 0.0 neutral when he is on the court getting those stats and -8.3 when he isn’t.
Even worse, why is Jeff Green…who played the same amount of minutes (so this isn’t a product of garbage time) only at -2.8. That means when Durant is off the court he must be significantly better since you’d assume he’s being dragged down by playing most of his minutes with KD.
Westbrook is an even better example. Despite playing a decent amount of his minutes with KD he is actually still a positive player, which just like Jeff Green must mean he is an ever better player when KD isn’t on the floor brining the stats down.
October 27th, 2009 at 2:16 pm
OKC is 35 wins at best this year.
October 27th, 2009 at 2:22 pm
Great post on Licata Xteve.
October 27th, 2009 at 3:03 pm
does anyone else really hate this +/- bullshit?
October 27th, 2009 at 3:19 pm
The NBA, sports, and hoops existed long before a +/- stat ever existed. People were able to make judgements on players abilities just fine. Numbers don’t tell the whole story, and a lot of the time there isn’t a number/rating for intangibles of the game.
I can go into any gym in the world and pick out the best player without having any idea how many points they scored or if their team won. Its not hard.
Number crunching nerds clutch to stats like this. But in the end look/feel will always trump numbers. Isn’t that how it works in pretty much everything?
October 27th, 2009 at 3:45 pm
Westbrook is a perfect example. He shot under .400 and was amongst the leaders in TOs. If you based your judgment on numbers alone you’d have to write him off as a below average player.
Yet if you watch him play you can see he is a talented ballhandler and defender. He is athletic. He is quick. He has all the tools to one day become a really good pro.
October 27th, 2009 at 4:00 pm
Durant’s +/- of -8.4 is atrocious, but also consider the following…
4 out of the 5 best Thunder 5 man +/- lineups last year included Durant. So they certainly play their best ball with him on the floor. (interestingly enough, the only player in all 5 of the top 5 is Collison)
I would actually expect Jeff Green to play just as well or even better without Durant on the floor, considering he spends a big chunk of those minutes playing his natural posistion, SF. He gets killed on the boards when playing PF (which certainly won’t help Durants +/- since he plays most of his minutes alongside him), but when he slides to the 3 and Durant is out, he is able to defend his posistion much better and turns into an average or above average rebounder (and also has a good defender/rebounder in Collison playing the PF minutes).
Durant playing the SG posistion is an absolute failure. He suffered through the first 13 or so games? of the season under PJ put in a posistion to fail. His scoring was totally neutralized by how much he was giving up to the man he defends - completely changed when he switched to SF for the majority of his minutes under Brooks, but the heavy SG minutes still represent a big chunk of his season.
The team went through a great run when Durant was hurt. Which is great for them and greatly helped the +/- stats of those players who contributed to the wins and logged minutes, but the quality of opponents they beat wasn’t remarkable by any stretch. They had 5 wins, but only beat one team with a record over .500 - they notched wins over MEM, DAL, WAS, PHI, SAC. Besides Dallas, those were the types of teams OKC generated almost all of their season wins against - mediocre or terrible teams. They managed to wins some games against them with Durant in the lineup, so its a tough call to say they wouldn’t have played as well during that particular stretch had he been there.
Westbrook is partially a product IMO of 1) playing a ton of minutes when KD was out during their stretch of 5 wins in 8 games, and 2) his backup, Earl Watson, was disgustingly inefficient last year and had a PER of 10.7. RW also didn’t play as many minutes during the horrific bad stretch of games under PJ, they were getting blown out by mid-way through the 1st quarter. Not to take anything away from RW though, I actually think the Thunder are at their best with him in the lineup. But might help explain why his +/- would be so much better than Durant or Greens even though they played so much together.
A lot of back and forth here, it will be interesting to see what this season brings. With the exception of my questions about Jeff Green being the right long term fit at PF next to Durant, most of the areas I mentioned shouldn’t be issues this season (the SG experiment, a stretch of games vs terrible teams when he happens to be out, Watson being so terrible). If the same #’s seem to shake out this year, you really have to question if his world class scoring is enough to outweight the shortfalls in his game.
October 27th, 2009 at 4:01 pm
I hope Durant plays amazingly well this season but the Thunder lose every game.
Yes, KD is on my fantasy team, why do you ask?
October 27th, 2009 at 5:07 pm
I have a No Blunder rule for my fantasy team, that way I won’t have to look at any of their box scores. I don’t talk about them and I hate reading about them. This thread has now made me ill.
October 27th, 2009 at 5:20 pm
I’m with you Taylormade. I’ve KD on one of my fantasy teams (named SuperSonics!) too. I wound up with the first pick in my draft, and I chose him. Of course, he’s not as good as LeBron or CP3, but he’s my favorite player and the object is to have fun. I can’t say why I believe this, but my gut tells me that he will wear a Sonics uniform again one day.
October 27th, 2009 at 5:27 pm
Ha. I got him on my fantasy team too. I had the #3 pick, he went behind Lebron and CP3.
October 27th, 2009 at 6:02 pm
I wish NBA 2k10 or NBA Live allowed for teams to relocate. I don’t know why the NBA stops it in their games, their teams move just as much as the NFL’s.
October 27th, 2009 at 6:30 pm
all pro sports at some level is about putting money into somebody’s pocket. don’t kid yourself. as for ’stealing a team,’ such a phenomenon doesn’t exist. it isn’t in seattle fans’ power to steal a team, and if a team moves it’ll be because the powerbrokers who can make those moves decided to do so. we simply root, hope, cheer, and/or suffer. anyway, plenty of relocated franchises prosper in their new environs. i doubt that indianapolis colt fans or baltimore raven fans were sad when their favorite teams won super bowls, just because they were relo franchises.
the sonics moved because schultz sold them to clay, with stern greasing the skids. it didn’t have anything to do w/any okc fan at all. it only had to do w/clay wanting the team where he wanted it to be. it’ll be the same when the grizz/kings/bobcats/t-wolves/hornets/pacers get around to moving. they’ll move to seattle and become the sonics, not because ‘we’ ’stole’ them, but because ballmer buys them and moves them where he wants to.
this is how pro sports works. every pro league in north america is the same, and fans who are taken by surprise when ‘it happens to their team’ simply aren’t plugged in.
so my conscience will be immaculately clear when the next sordid nba relocation unfolds, if it results in sonics2. because i know that this is how it always is. it’s rotten, but it’s real.
October 27th, 2009 at 8:11 pm
Menace is right, I could tell Reggie Theus was draining the life out of his team while filling his stat line. Long before I knew what a +/- was, I knew Reggie would get 28, and the Kings would lose, lots.
On Licata, he abstained from the MOA vote on the tunnel, releasing his own press release (Urban Smugness), and two short weeks later he is part of the 9-0 vote approving the scape of paper the mayor and governor signed the other day.
The poll said, abstain, then it said support. Not sure how effective reading the polls and voting is for a 3-term incumbant promoting his independant style.
Nick-picking something to death has gotten old, even for Nick.
October 27th, 2009 at 8:15 pm
Btw, stealing back the Griz might set a few things right in the northwest.
October 27th, 2009 at 8:44 pm
“I could tell Reggie Theus was draining the life out of his team while filling his stat line. Long before I knew what a +/- was, I knew Reggie would get 28, and the Kings would lose, lots.”
Remember when Iverson was a rookie and he shot the ball 30x a game at around .333. He’d put up 40 and they’d lose. A blind man could see he was shooting them out of games.
So do people see the same thing with Durant? Is he shooting them out of games? Is he hogging the ball so much is disrupts the flow of the game? Is he giving that much up on D? More than Ray Allen did? More or less than Rashard does?
I guess I’m more willing to believe points like his D sucks or real time examples than +/-. It just seems more real to me. I’m not saying +/- isn’t valid. But I’m sure most scouts and coaches in the L would agree that it takes a backseat, far backseat, to real time coaching and basketball observation.
October 27th, 2009 at 8:54 pm
The lead in story for King 5 sports this evening was “2nd season without the Sonics” and then they played a clip from opening night for the NBA with the Celtics and Cavaliers. That hurts still! The only thing that even made me smile was seeing Ray Allen with a smooth lay-up. : )
October 27th, 2009 at 9:51 pm
Rumors, rumors, rumors. That is all this is. No businessman in his right mind would invest in the money losing NBA now. Wait until the new CBA is finalized. Wait until we can see signs of a real economic recovery not some government engineered statistical improvement. Wait for a couple teams to be owned by the league. Wait for the league to realize they need competitive and financial balance. Then the price will come down. Wait until there is solid, on the record political support for a new building not inuendo and hints that ’something is happening’ during an election season. We are in the middle of the worst recession in 50 years. Absolutely nothing suggests that this would be a good time to buy an NBA franchise.
October 27th, 2009 at 9:55 pm
luvmysupes … yeah …. tonight I miss the Sonics and NBA a bit more - oh well …..
I did see 5 minutes of the Cavs/Celtics game before a meeting tonight - just got home - looked at box score - Lebron is just unreal. I do not see the Shaq thing working - but Lebron is so great he may take them all the way.
October 27th, 2009 at 9:55 pm
The other way to look at it is that its a great time to buy. Considering the economy and the state of the league you might be able to negotiate a cheaper deal from financially strapped owners looking to cut their losses.
October 27th, 2009 at 10:13 pm
Well, I can see the arguments, wait for the cba, but as soon as it is fixed then the risk is lowered and the long term value goes up.
Buying now is pointless, other than having a variety to pick from, all choices losing money.
The Canucks were sold during the NHL implosion, with a few months to go, and no known end, sold.
I expect that period to be the other part of what the NBA has to resolve. They insisted on these palaces that have leases that will not generate enough revenue over the life of those leases. No games will be playing.
The closer we get to the end of the season, the more we will see teams start to line up to get sold and moved during the lockout. A year from now, the quiet will be broken by low bidder auctions.
October 27th, 2009 at 10:19 pm
Btw, if I had already made a deal to return a team to Seattle, no way in the world would I announce that while Greg Nickels is mayor, if I can help it.
October 27th, 2009 at 10:36 pm
Baker has a very good point. Ballmer is waiting until 2010, at least.
October 27th, 2009 at 11:45 pm
The Anti-Susan Hutchensen commercials where they have her slow motion and call her sara palin, the best parrt is when they zoom in on her face and actually edit a fake winking eye on her. Can they really make her wink with movie magic? is there not rules against that? if anything its lame and show the type of group wants DOW Constentine.
That ad is paid for by the SEIU, remember those guys/gals? They are the same group who put together i-91 and gives money to Likatas group citizens for better things. ”
I see how the SEIU has their hooks into Seattle and has taken over our local politics.
October 28th, 2009 at 5:56 am
“The other way to look at it is that its a great time to buy. Considering the economy and the state of the league you might be able to negotiate a cheaper deal from financially strapped owners looking to cut their losses.”
Good point. I understand the Russian guy, whatever is name is, who is buying an 80% stake in the Nets is paying $200 million not $700 million as reported earlier on this blog.
October 28th, 2009 at 7:43 am
I saw Chris Legaros on the bus yesterday and told him he was in Sonicsgate. He hadn’t heard of it but told me he would check it out. A few weeks ago I asked him about his former co-worker Susan Hutchison and he said she was a really nice, intelligent lady. He seemed to have no problem with her at all. Comparing her with Palin is ridiculous. Remember Sarah had difficulty answering the question about what she’d been reading lately.
SEIU really tries to take advantage of their chosen profession to lay guilt trips on everyone don’t they?
October 28th, 2009 at 9:34 am
Westbrook is a perfect example. He shot under .400 and was amongst the leaders in TOs. If you based your judgment on numbers alone you’d have to write him off as a below average player.
Yet if you watch him play you can see he is a talented ballhandler and defender. He is athletic. He is quick. He has all the tools to one day become a really good pro.
- Funny how you use Westbrook as an example of a player who appears to be better then his stats and yet Westbrook was also a positive in his +/-
BTW, this is absolutely hillarious:
Number crunching nerds clutch to stats like this. But in the end look/feel will always trump numbers. Isn’t that how it works in pretty much everything?
- People who would rather just make up stuff clutch to the argument of calling people “nerds” because they have no concrete evidence to back them up. Look/feel and stats do not have to be used seperately. They can be used in tandem.
Not surprisingly, the players who seem to be considered the best from a look/feel stand point typically look great in the stats stand point. If you suddenly had a stat that showed all the “great” players looking horrible you’d hae to start to re-evaluate the stat. Also, the purpose of stats are much more to compare a bunch of players and try and ID differences. So, looking at the great players you see:
LeBron: +21
Kobe: +12
Wade: +13
Paul: +17
Durant: is more than 20 points worse then these guys.
So, instead of trying to figure out why this is you have people like Menace who just say “oh that doesn’t matter” he looks good when he plays. Thank goodness you aren’t a GM.
October 28th, 2009 at 9:42 am
My friend wrote this article for The Daily. It calls out Seattle sports fans, and Seattle in general, for their complete dismissal of the Sonics in favor of the freaking Sounders.
http://dailyuw.com/2009/10/13/sounders-arent-same-other-pros/
October 28th, 2009 at 9:50 am
The team went through a great run when Durant was hurt. Which is great for them and greatly helped the +/- stats of those players who contributed to the wins and logged minutes, but the quality of opponents they beat wasn’t remarkable by any stretch. They had 5 wins, but only beat one team with a record over .500 - they notched wins over MEM, DAL, WAS, PHI, SAC. Besides Dallas, those were the types of teams OKC generated almost all of their season wins against - mediocre or terrible teams. They managed to wins some games against them with Durant in the lineup, so its a tough call to say they wouldn’t have played as well during that particular stretch had he been there.
- You seem to be subtly not including some larger pieces of information. The talent of the teams they beat was not great. This is true. However, while Durant was out they went on a stretch of winning 5 of 6 games. Did you know that in KD’s entire career in the NBA he has only won three games in a row once? There was a stretch his rookie year where they won 4 games out of 5. Tha is the best they’ve ever done. So, to say its a tough call to say they would’ve had the same performance seems to be counter to everythng else we’ve seen in his career.
On top of that, once he came back the team that had just won five of six went on to win 5-12. So, a team that was able to go 5 of 6 suddenly returns to the same 30% Winning% he’s had his entire career.
During that 6 game win streak they averaged giving up 90.3 p/pg…when he came back they went up to 101 ppg. People don’t deny his offensive ability. But, right now his defense really sucks. If he can improve that then he deserves to be a star…until then he is a liabilty to his team. Its funny how the “look and feel” people only seem to focus on his offensive ability. Defense is pretty important in basketball too.
BTW, one point I agree with you on is that one reason KD might be having problems is because they have an undersized PF in Jeff Green. They just don’t seem to fit very well together. Again, these are the types of answers you’d want to try and figure out as opposed to going “well your stats are stupid I’m going to just willfully ignore what is right in front of my face”.
October 28th, 2009 at 10:15 am
“People who would rather just make up stuff clutch to the argument of calling people “nerds” because they have no concrete evidence to back them up.”
A better reason is because concrete evidence/numbers don’t exist for some things. See defense. See basketball IQ.
And I’m not totally discounting +/- by any means. But it remains to be seen whether its relevant in a game like basketball IMO. It seems relevant in Hockey. A similar stat might work for baseball. Does a moneyball approach work for hoops? I really don’t know. In a game like basketball I just think it takes a backseat to using your eyes and ears for evaluation.
“Funny how you use Westbrook as an example of a player who appears to be better then his stats and yet Westbrook was also a positive in his +/-”
That is one way to look at it. The other is that +/- is flawed because this individual shot poorly and turned the ball over a ton.
October 28th, 2009 at 10:39 am
There’s also the argument that people who clutch to numbers didn’t play the game. It would make sense. There are some things that can’t be learned from analyzing stats or from books. There are no numbers that define ones ability to read a defense or find soft spots in zones. There is no rating system for moving without the ball. No footwork scoring system. Does +/- reflect ballhandling? No.
I’m no football expert. I’ve never played organized ball. But I’m smart enough to know that Shaun Alexander wasn’t the best player in the NFL because of his fantasy stats in 2005. There are a lot of things in that game that I’ll never look for because I never really played it.
Benching Durant in favor of Kyle Weaver just doesn’t seem like a good idea to me. I don’t care what the numbers say.
October 28th, 2009 at 11:17 am
I have durant on one of my fantasy team too. One of my teams name Save Our Sonics, the other name Sonicsgate
October 28th, 2009 at 11:36 am
i love the article from the daily Eric! thanks. most sounders fans are blathering idiots. i’ve had a lot of animosity for the sounders for a while. i actually started thinking it was pretty cool having another pro team, but hearing people talking about the sounders “replacing” the sonics has pissed me off WAY too much. i love seeing the sonic pride and if it means putting soundrs fans in their place so be it.
October 28th, 2009 at 11:42 am
Why are people debating the Thunder’s lineup? Seriously? Shouldnt we be slamming Steve Kelley for trying to force the Blazers down our throats or something remotely relevant?
October 28th, 2009 at 11:44 am
That is one way to look at it. The other is that +/- is flawed because this individual shot poorly and turned the ball over a ton.
- Every stat you reference is based on offense…this must be why you are willing to give KD a pass. You simply will not admit that being a horrible a defensive player can hurt your team. Defense matters in all sports…
Well you bring up Ray Allen and Rashard Lewis…but yet I dont think you’d consider either of them a game changing superstar.
October 28th, 2009 at 11:49 am
There’s also the argument that people who clutch to numbers didn’t play the game. It would make sense. There are some things that can’t be learned from analyzing stats or from books. There are no numbers that define ones ability to read a defense or find soft spots in zones. There is no rating system for moving without the ball. No footwork scoring system. Does +/- reflect ballhandling? No.
- What would be the point of all those things if there is statistical evidence that the team is worse with them. That is the point. All these things that can’t be quantified are pointless if the team is worse when the player is on the floor. Who cares if someone supposedly moves without the ball (something most say KD doesn’t do well btw) if the team sucks while he is doing it?
BTW, even more funny is that you talk about intangibles and yet you still use stats to defend your point 25ppg and 7rips…so it isn’t that you are against stats. It is that you are against stats that you don’t like.
Benching Durant in favor of Kyle Weaver just doesn’t seem like a good idea to me. I don’t care what the numbers say.
- No one is saying this…they are using stats to try and figure out why the Thunder have sucked and why they suck the most when KD is on the floor. Once you can figure out why then you can fix the problem.
Maybe the problem is that he plays along side an undersized PF
Maybe the probelm is that he plays the pick and roll poorly and you should adjust who he guards.
etc.
Basically, just saying “stats are for nerds” is basically saying “I’d rather not try and figure out how to make my team better”…that you can’t admit something that is being proven in black and white is just showing willful ignorance.
October 28th, 2009 at 11:51 am
You seem to be subtly not including some larger pieces of information. Did you know that in KD’s entire career in the NBA he has only won three games in a row once? There was a stretch his rookie year where they won 4 games out of 5. So, to say its a tough call to say they would’ve had the same performance seems to be counter to everythng else we’ve seen in his career
I suppose I didn’t include that larger piece of information because I think it’s completely irrelevant. It isn’t a tough call at all to say they would/could have performed the same - they beat mediocre or terrible teams when he was out, and they have beat them when he plays. Besides, the team played .500 ball in January, won 3/4 games on two seperate occasions - does it really make a difference that those wins didn’t come in a row?
once he came back the team that had just won five of six went on to win 5-12. So, a team that was able to go 5 of 6 suddenly returns to the same 30% Winning% he’s had his entire career.
They also played the Spurs 3 times, Portland twice, the Lakers, Boston, Utah, and Denver. 11 out of the 17 games you mentioned were against teams playing at or well over .500 basketball and many were the elite of the NBA.
During that 6 game win streak they averaged giving up 90.3 p/pg…when he came back they went up to 101 ppg…If he can improve that then he deserves to be a star…until then he is a liabilty to his team… Defense is pretty important in basketball too.
When he was out and they played a good team, they gave up a ton of points just like they always do on 3 out of the 4 occasions…
Dallas - 110
Dallas - 87
N.O. - 108
Den - 112
If we are talking about the games KD was out, you can’t conviently leave out the 110 and 112 points they gave up in losses surrounding the 5-1 streak, bringing the total record when Durant was out to 5-3 and the defense giving up 95.6 - which is solid, and possibly better than if Durant had been there, but again, they played some pretty terrible teams.
The teams they went on the winning streak against included the worst, 2nd to worst, and 5th worst records in the entire league. I would expect any team in the NBA to give up a substantially less amount of points when playing those teams.
I have some other theories about the defense, but will save them for another post - this is getting too long…
October 28th, 2009 at 11:51 am
Why are people debating the Thunder’s lineup? Seriously? Shouldnt we be slamming Steve Kelley for trying to force the Blazers down our throats or something remotely relevant?
- We’re talking basketball…this is a basaketball blog.
October 28th, 2009 at 11:52 am
I’m a sounders fan, but as devoted as a sonics fan, of course. I don’t think there’s a problem being sounders fan and a sonics fan. One cannot place replace the other. It’s like if you like Chinese food doesn’t mean you can’t like Japanese food.
There’s a difference between the 2 sports. NBA is a top-notch world best league.
MLS is a 2nd if not 3rd tier quality league in the world.
The product is very different
If you compare both, it’s like comparing Husky baseball and NFL
October 28th, 2009 at 11:56 am
one of my favorite parts of Sherman Alexie’s interview (that will hopefully make it into bonus features) is when he clowns on the Sounders bandwagon fans:
“Soccer? Seriously? I mean, you can tie! TIE!!! It’s like third grade T-ball or something.”
October 28th, 2009 at 12:19 pm
Thanks Brian for keeping us posted on the changing political climate, that’s great to hear.
I still feel burned by David Sperm & the NBA even though I enjoy the game the league is tainted for me now, as it is for many of us. I sure can’t hang onto KD & Collison et al on the Chunder. Youch.
October 28th, 2009 at 12:26 pm
five,
I completely agree. Comparing fans of one sport to the other is ridiculous. Soccer fans are a different breed. It’s like asking a cross country runner why he never turned out for wrestling (I’m sure someone on here is going to say they did both and screw up my analogy).
Ask a Sounders fan how many Seahawk games they’ve been to. Then ask a Seahawks fan how many Sounders games they’ve been to.
You can’t blame the Sounders for showing up the year the Sonics left. The reality is, they are selling 30,000 tickets per game and proving there ARE soccer fans in the NW. Will that drop in the years to come? Who knows.. you can speculate all you want, but the facts point to success for the Sounders.
And don’t get me wrong, I’ve always been a Sonics fan before any other sport. I had Sonics season tickets, and Seahawk season tickets. The Sonics left, and I got Sounders tickets. I didn’t think much at first, figured I’d give them away in the office and to clients - and now I have people begging me for them. I’ve given more than half of the tickets away, and almost everyone I’ve given them to is planning on getting some sort of ticket package for next year.
I miss the Sonics too, but at some point you have to stop blaming/bashing everyone and everything and focus on the future.
October 28th, 2009 at 1:25 pm
“The closer we get to the end of the season, the more we will see teams start to line up to get sold and moved during the lockout. A year from now, the quiet will be broken by low bidder auctions.”
Mr. Baker is right again.
“I’m a sounders fan, but as devoted as a sonics fan, of course. I don’t think there’s a problem being sounders fan and a sonics fan. One cannot place replace the other. It’s like if you like Chinese food doesn’t mean you can’t like Japanese food.
There’s a difference between the 2 sports. NBA is a top-notch world best league.
MLS is a 2nd if not 3rd tier quality league in the world.
The product is very different”
yep, good post. But we’ll see how well MLS draws in another 3 years or so especially if the team is mediocre. This is a fairweather town, always has been regardless of what the sport is.
I heard the Sounders are running a promotion with the Men’s Wearhouse. Buy a suit and get 11 free ties.
October 28th, 2009 at 1:59 pm
i would have absolutely NO problem with Sounders fans if they didn’t feel the need to say that soccer has replaced the Sonics as they pour gasoline in our wounds.
i am only slightly less interested in soccer than women’s basketball… which = zero. it’s great for the people who love it, but it’s just not for me and that’s fine. however, when you invoke my only true love as having been replaced by the honeymoon season of a third-tier league playing third-grade T-ball, we have a problem.
i think it’s great how the Sounders ownership has shown that pro sports can been run properly and become something for the community to rally around. i’d even go to a game if given a free ticket just to see what all the fuss is about, just like i’ve gone to a couple Storm games when offered free seats. this local soccer phenomenon perfectly illustrates the bandwagon honeymoon phenomenon to the fullest.
it’s exactly what happened in OKC last year with attendance, except our soccer team is actually good in its first year so demand is high.
October 28th, 2009 at 2:12 pm
Yeah I fail to see the point of pitting fans of one sport against another. Isn’t whats good for the city region good for all regardless of what sport it is?
Clearly I’ve touched a nerve. I’m not just saying stats are for “nerds” man. I’m just saying IMO there are more relevent things to factor in that can’t be judged by numbers. I’d be willing to bet 2-1 that most coaches would agree. I think its a mistake to factor in statistical analysis so highly. Just my opinion.
Your a stats guy. I’m not. To each his own.
October 28th, 2009 at 2:16 pm
menace - i tend to agree that stats can be overanalyzed to the detriment of the evaluation of players, which is why i stay out of all the +/- talk. for example, Hollinger’s formula rankings almost always have a few WTFs in there. stats are fun and can tell you a lot of things about the game, but not everything reflects in numbers.
October 28th, 2009 at 2:21 pm
I think this is blown out of proportion. Has there been Sounders fans who have said who needs the Sonics we have the sounders now? Yes. Has there been Sonics fans who have said soccer is lame and I dont get it? Yes..
Soccer just like everything is a personal preference. SOme love some hate it but I think that is mostly because they do not understand it. Fact is, is that Washington per capita has more adult soccer players then anywhere else. There is a base here and the season know one knew they existed unless you drive by fields during the week is that they had nothing to cheer for. Now they do…
Second the SOunders are not competing against the return of the Sonics. If anyone should be worried it should be the Mariners as there seasons run during the same time.
What I hate about this town is band wagon fans and one sport fans. For example I know plenty of Seahawks fans who call Sounders fans stupid and much worse… There are plenty of Sonics fans who blame the Sounders which I do not get because they have done everything right… While I am not telling anyone to jump full board into the SOunders b/c if you u do not understand then I can see how it can be lame. But do not go out of your way to bash soccer just because you do not understand it.
I hope the Sonics come back but the Sounders and there fans will not be to blame if they do not.. At least we can enjoy the playoffs again this week in Seattle!!!!
October 28th, 2009 at 2:28 pm
i would have absolutely NO problem with Sounders fans if they didn’t feel the need to say that soccer has replaced the Sonics as they pour gasoline in our wounds.
Well, there’s plenty of basketball fans who think their sport is a joke so it’s a fair trade off. Also, the schedule of their sport doesn’t do anything to help us get through the long, cold, wet, boring winter nights. It’s more like something for the bandwagon old “new breed” of Mariner fans that just want to show up, yak, and say “Hey, look at me, i’m a soccer fan now that the Mariners suck.”
October 28th, 2009 at 2:30 pm
I guess I should’ve hit refresh before posting that since Paul just said some of the same things.
October 28th, 2009 at 2:35 pm
A team either does well or doesn’t when a player is on the court. The +/- stat is no great mystery. Baker’s post about Reggie Theus best illustrates the point.
October 28th, 2009 at 2:42 pm
i feel you on the bandwagon/one sport thing paul. i can’t argue with anyone that my favorite sport is more worthwhile than theirs or i’d be a Licata elitist. but fans from other sports making fun of soccer and the WNBA is hardly a new phenomenon, just like people saying the NBA is full of “overpaid thugs” or the games are fixed” before we lost our team.
i’m a pretty big Seahawks fan as well (with the Ms a distant 3rd). when the SOS fight was first ramping up, i used to always preach to Hawks hoppers that they should care about the Sonics because “there would come a time when the Seahawks would be rebuilding and their #37 Alexander jerseys would be collecting dust while the Oklahoma Sonics would be in the conference finals.”
i pray we get a team soon and the Blunder curse persists so we never have to see that second part come true.
October 28th, 2009 at 2:57 pm
+/- is valuable but it doesn’t factor in who else is on the court with that person. first or second unit? playing with another great defender on the floor?
kinda like a great pass to a player who is fouled shooting… the assist is gone, but that play still helped the team. durant’s overall value is still questionable, but what if he played for the Cavs? i’m sure his +/- would take a jump.
… dammit!! you guys got me into it now haha!
October 28th, 2009 at 3:16 pm
People keep saying that Seattle isn’t next in line, that there’s KC, Vegas, Anaheim, etc etc. By 2011 ALL those cities could have teams. The NBA landscape could be very different in 2 short years.
October 28th, 2009 at 3:21 pm
“+/- is valuable but it doesn’t factor in who else is on the court with that person. first or second unit? playing with another great defender on the floor?”
What you can do is compare a team’s plus-minus when player X is on the court with its plus-minus when he is off the court. That’s called the adjusted plus-minus and is obviously more telling. It’s not a terribly complicated concept. NBA teams have been using it for a while now.
October 28th, 2009 at 3:30 pm
Did anyone watch any of the games last night?
Be honest now.
I was at a bar last night and the Lakers-Clippers game was on, I glanced every now and again. But I was too busy celebrating to really pay attention.
October 28th, 2009 at 3:42 pm
i watch both games. necessary considering i have a fantasy team with big money on the line.
still hurts every second, but i’ll always enjoy watching the best basketball players in the world.
October 28th, 2009 at 4:06 pm
Menace,
The nerd comment didn’t “strike a nerve”…Im just find your reasoning strange. You say that you don’t care about stats and you’d rather just use your eyes. But, if using your eyes is showing you something that looks good, but is proven to be detrimental to the team then what’s the point? If Durant scores a ton of points and the team is better when he is off the court, then why does how he look make him a great player?
In the end, I think it is telling that you never incorporate defense into your descriptions of how Durant plays the game. This is like the people who think that Adrian Beltre was one of the worst signings ever, when that isn’t true whatsoever. That is where the big disconnect is between you and I. Surely, he is a really good offensive player (there are some things he could do better thuogh)…but if he’s making his team basically play 4 on 5 that is his biggest problem. There is hope. LeBron was considered a pretty lazy defender when he first came into the league and has since improved. It’d take that same kind of improvement to become great.
October 28th, 2009 at 4:07 pm
I think ive read here the some people support Susan Hutchinson…besides being on Television is there anything she’s done that makes her actually worthy of a vote?
October 28th, 2009 at 4:43 pm
a friend just called and said that Dow Constantine went in for Sonics fans on KJR today. listening now –>
http://www.950kjr.com/cc-common/podcast/single_podcast.html?podcast=ian_furness.xml
Huchinson has been really supportive too, so either way i think SOS will have a friend in the KingCo Executive.
October 28th, 2009 at 5:57 pm
“You say that you don’t care about stats and you’d rather just use your eyes. But, if using your eyes is showing you something that looks good, but is proven to be detrimental to the team then what’s the point? If Durant scores a ton of points and the team is better when he is off the court, then why does how he look make him a great player?”
His D doesn’t look good. No doubt.
Beyond that how doesn’t it look good? 6′10″. Athletic scorer. 21 years old. Losing doesn’t look good. Thats for sure.
Brandon Roy was -1 in last nights game. Nothing you can say will ever convince me that the Blazers were a better team with him off the floor. I don’t need to see numbers/stats or even see the game to come to that conclusion.
In the end would you bench him to give the Thunder a better chance of winning? I’d think most people wouldn’t, despite what numbers say. If your answer is no then what’s the point to the discussion?
“In the end, I think it is telling that you never incorporate defense into your descriptions of how Durant plays the game. ”
I think his D is terrible. But I think people spotlight it because its the weakest part of his game. Is he at a Ridnouresque liability level? He is bad but he is no worse than Ray or Shard was.
I thought we agreed there aren’t any good stats numbers to apply to defensive efficiency. But as bad as his D is……….does every SF that plays the Thunder put up 30+. Is it a given that whoever Durants guarding is the go to guy? I don’t think it is, and no I don’t have any numbers to prove this.
October 28th, 2009 at 6:07 pm
“I was too busy celebrating to really pay attention.”
As you should have been my good man!
October 28th, 2009 at 6:15 pm
“11 free ties”
haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaAaa!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
MLS in this town will be fine, just as the Storm, and kind of the others, but, LL Xteve is right about the frontrunner town. What is slowly becoming less obvious is how much of an impact that is as the population grows. The top of the bowl, stadium, arena will ebb and flow, whereas 20 years ago you had wild swings from year to year. Much if that does have to do with the venue. So, like the Mariners, they draw enough, and there is potential enough in the venue, that the owner and the fans know turn arounds are possible.
The rest of the MLS, WNBA, are the real question marks, not so much Seattle. Getting world cut here would be huge for the MLS. The stadium is a mediafactory.
Btw, IMO if the Kings move it is not intrastate, I think they run in place and then go to Vegas (fu Clay). San Jose might be a good market if you control the arena and team. Ellis will buy and ship across the country (next day air) some other team (bobcats? Are the Hawks so messed up that moving is the answer?)
I will keep coming back to the Griz coming here more, and more, because the timing of the buyout of the lease and Karma.
October 28th, 2009 at 6:15 pm
“People keep saying that Seattle isn’t next in line, that there’s KC, Vegas, Anaheim, etc etc. By 2011 ALL those cities could have teams. The NBA landscape could be very different in 2 short years”
i can’t see anaheim getting a team, they have both the lakers and clippers in the same market. three teams would be ridicolous. LA might get the NFL back soon too, so it would border on market saturation if anaheim got a team. could you imagine LA having 2 MLB teams, 2 NHL teams, 3 NBA teams, and a maybe soon to be an NFL team, besides UCLA,USC and the MLS?
is all seattle needs to do is get a building to be next in line. if they don’t it’ll be KC or vegas.
October 28th, 2009 at 7:10 pm
Hey Sonics nation the worst is over with can’t you feel it in the air. Ever since Nickels was shown the door things have seemed different. The politicians saw what happened to Nickels and now they are taking Sonics fans seriously now. Last year I was bitter we all were bitter we had every right to be bitter but now with a new year and a new mayor things are different now. I can watch the NBA and just enjoy the athleticism and great players and teams because I am a basketball fan always will be and now I am glad I can start to enjoy it again. This is going to be a fun basketball season with the Huskies doing their thing and Seattle U starting their program up again with Cameron Dollar. Also we get to enjoy the Okies losing again, they will be better but they still will suck lol.
Sonics nation enjoy the game again it is a great sport to watch and play. The worst is over I repeat the worst is over.
October 28th, 2009 at 7:56 pm
I must also give a tremendous thanks to the creators of Sonicsgate. Even though it was painful to watch it really put all the events in persective and in a strange way it was a healing tool for me it really was. The thing that I learned and will always remember about it was that Clay Bennett wasn’t the original person who wanted to buy it. It was another guy who people said was an upstanding person and had a good reputation, but Clay Clay wiseled his way in and forced him out. I believe if Schultz had sold it to the other guy the team still would be here. That is something I and alot of other people didn’t know, so to Shultz credit he first trusted a guy with a good reputation, but to his discredit he sold it to a sleaze bag he should have known better, but that is all in the past now.
The Sonics shall return!!!
October 28th, 2009 at 9:02 pm
I like to be as optimistic as anyone, but let’s be realistic here. Rumors are a dime a dozen in the age of the blog. No NBA team is coming anywhere near Seattle until a “proper” arena is built. That remaining the case, Seattle will take a back seat to other aspiring cities, market share be damned. Another sobering fact: David Stern’s rear end must be kissed in order to secure a team, so get used to that if you really want Sonics 2.0. I hate that fact as much as anyone, but it’s the bloody truth. Nothing happens in the NBA until he let’s it happen. Don’t count on the “sympathy factor”, because King David doesn’t have an once of it in him. We know this to be true.
October 28th, 2009 at 9:27 pm
The politicians saw what happened to Nickels and now they are taking Sonics fans seriously now. Last year I was bitter we all were bitter we had every right to be bitter but now with a new year and a new mayor things are different now.
False hope is what election season is all about.
The thing that I learned and will always remember about it was that Clay Bennett wasn’t the original person who wanted to buy it. It was another guy who people said was an upstanding person and had a good reputation, but Clay Clay wiseled his way in and forced him out. I believe if Schultz had sold it to the other guy the team still would be here. That is something I and alot of other people didn’t know
That’s because it isn’t true. Ed Evans joined Bennett’s group because they were the ones who were willing to put up the bulk of the capital.
October 28th, 2009 at 9:29 pm
Q: You were among the ownership group that helped bring the Thunder to Oklahoma City. Are you still an owner?
A: I am actually the guy who negotiated the deal to bring the (then) Sonics here. I sold out my ownership early. We had a lot of guys who were interested in it. I was pretty focused on this business (Stelera) at that point in time.
http://www.growinokc.com/index.php?submenu=evans&src=gendocs&ref=EdEvans&category=OKCSuccessStories
October 28th, 2009 at 11:01 pm
Thunder win their opener. Don’t get too excited…it was the Kings!! I wonder how much more they would have won by if KD didn’t play? jk
I love Vegas. One of my favorite places in the world. But with all the entertainment choices down there…….I think the last thing on my list of things to do there would be to go to an NBA game. The big question is whether a city full of transplants would support it. From a coaching perspective would there be a more dreaded road trip city to play in than Sin City? Better or worse than South Beach?
October 28th, 2009 at 11:20 pm
I don’t think that the KD +/- ratio is necessarily an indication of a problem. Jordan’s team mates used to do a lot less when he was on the court. Everybody just expected that Jordan would do it all. Eventually, Jordan had a team that went at it hard when he was on the court. It was a maturation and player selection process. I’ve heard that this isn’t uncommon. The poor KD +/- ratio may be a similar issue.
Looks like Westbrook might be turning into a real point guard.
October 29th, 2009 at 6:40 am
Let the Thunder win and win over the fan base…then let them LEAVE later..tit for tat!!!
October 29th, 2009 at 9:44 am
Wouldn’t it be better if the Thunder were good? I think I’d rather have them be good and then have all the former players leave. It’ll mean more that way.
If they suck and he leaves then they’ll just say “well we sucked with him so no big deal”.
But then at the same time if they get good…….maybe they stay.
“People who would rather just make up stuff clutch to the argument of calling people “nerds” because they have no concrete evidence to back them up.”
Statistics say that “Titanic” is the greatest movie of all time, Backstreet Boy’s “Millenium” is one of the ten best albums of all time, and McDonalds serves the best burger (because they’ve sold the most).
I could argue against all and wouldn’t have any concrete evidence/numbers to back it up. Do I really need it?