Taxing Athletes?
Posted on Saturday, March 6th, 2010 at 8:19 am by Brian Robinson
What an interesting legislative session we’re having.
I had no hope in the begining. got my hopes up bigtime, and then had completely and totally given up when a series of amendments come out including the implementation of a B&O tax on athletes.
Although I didn’t expect it to come around at this time I have to claim some involvement in that one. Hope the athletes don’t hate me for it.
This concept got started talking around about 3 years ago. We were dismayed by the competative disadvantage Seattle has due to a lack of income tax. Keep in mind that in Oklahoma City the state income tax is 9%. That means that for every game Shaq plays in OKC he has to declare 1/82nd of his paycheck as Oklahoma Income and pay 9% to the state. With NBA teams averaging about $60M in payroll that comes out to $10M per year that the state just collects (2 teams playing every night). They charge that tax and yet a team just moved there. New York and California have those taxes and they have multiple teams. So no I don’t think we’re going to see a mass exodus of professional sports from this town. No there is nothing dirty about it or different from most other markets. You pay the taxes where you perform. Period. They have had a much lower tax burden than players in other states for a long long time. The owners don’t give a damn what the tax burden on the players is. They care what the tax burden on the franchise is. Very critical difference.
So how do we resolve that inequity? Find a way to tax people who work in publicly funded buildings for their use of that building.
We wanted to do a “Public Facilities Use Surcharge” that would be enacted by a vote. There was a lot of research done and the determination was made that the income tax implications would be tricky. People looked into it. Told us a B&O tax was the only way it would fly. Suddenly here we have, a B&O tax.
The one thing I know very certainly is that this is likely to get contested in court and if it does there is no way they can co-mingle this with the general fund without finding that it violates state income tax restrictions(Unless those get changed as well). The thought was that this became much more justifiable legally if those charges went directly to fund the PFD’s that makes the work possible. So if this were to fly it should directly fund the creation and maintenance of public facility sports stadiums long term.
What this would necessitate would be the conversion of the key, or the creation of a new building as a public facilities district operated by the county. This also has always been in play. It was the easy way to do a KeyArena model circumventing the city law of I-91 that did not apply to county facilities. Greg Nickels was VERY protective of Seattle Center and Ron Simms very aggressive in wanting it. A difficult dynamic was created. Maybe Dow Constantine and Mike McGinn work better together or have different priorities. It’s like the roofline of KeyArena. That was ridiculously important to Nickels who viewed it as a historic element. I personally could care less about it. Different people have different priorities.
So an interesting day. Friday is the end of session. I have a tough time thinking they would put this stuff in here if it wasn’t going to get voted in. The timing tells me that deals may have been cut.
I have been very busy. Haven’t followed this close so I can’t say for sure what is going on.
March 6th, 2010 at 11:25 am
Sounds cool, but I ‘m not getting my hopes up after last years non-vote on 6116. Is there a bill number attached to this legislation? If there is I will write Olympia and tell them to support it. If not, is there something else I could do?
March 6th, 2010 at 11:59 am
interesting. i remember steve p was talking about this a while back but it didn’t seem like it had any legs at the time.
on a more infuriating note:
“Kevin Durant first met Spencer Haywood three years ago during his rookie season, when the Oklahoma City Thunder were based in Seattle and in the throws of a 20-62 season. The former SuperSonics star told Durant to keep his head up because things would turn around. On Friday night, Durant tied Haywood’s 1972-73 franchise mark by recording his 35th game of the season with 30 or more points in a 104-87 victory over the Los Angeles Clippers.
The first-time All-Star finished with 32 points and nine rebounds. Haywood’s legacy when he retired from the game was the 1971 Supreme Court ruling against the NCAA that players could leave college early for the NBA. Durant benefited from that landmark decision, leaving the Texas Longhorns after his freshman season to go into the draft and getting taken with the No. 2 overall pick.
“I know a lot about Spencer and what he’s done for this league. He paved the way for guys like myself, so it’s a great honor to be in company like that,” Durant said. “That’s pretty cool. He’s a great role model to kids and he helped me out when I was in Seattle.” Durant, who has been playing leapfrog with LeBron James in their race for the NBA scoring title, came in trailing the Cleveland Cavaliers’ star by one-tenth of a point per game. James had 40 against Detroit on Friday night.
Durant, trying to become the first player in the 43-year history of the Seattle/Oklahoma City franchise to win a league scoring crown, has had at least 25 points in 33 of his last 35 games. That should be enough to start him at all times in Fantasy.
March 6th, 2010 at 12:00 pm
While I am excited that they are taking a piece of my idea it is too bad they do not have enough vision to go with the whole package, one so good that you could put it on the ballot and it would pass overwhelmingly.
This is what happens when you do things at the last minute rather than taking the time to work out the best solution.
It is time to completely get the state out of the politics of stadium funding.
March 6th, 2010 at 12:58 pm
I should have referred to “we” instead of “I” in any comments there. Steve and I worked this idea pretty much together the entire time and I never mean to exclude him in any way.
March 6th, 2010 at 1:08 pm
I could see the public agree overwhelmingly on this for one simple reason - the public doesn’t agree athletes should be paid so much money. This would draw a lot of income for the cause of a new facility. $10 million per year? That would cover most of the yearly mortgage payment on a new building. But after all that, you have to see where to draw the line. Is this just basketball or all other sports? What about semi-pro leagues? Minor league baseball players? How about other industries where the government subsidizes their facilities? Should Washington create an Aviation tax for Boeing employees who work here? What about a technology tax on Microsoft employees who work in Washington? And then you get into the discrimination debate as why only professional athletes? Why should they be the ones to pay this tax? Just because they are extremely talented in what they do (ok, not all are ie. Jerome James) doesnt mean they should be required to fork up more money. The Seahawks and Mariners facilities are already built, with Safeco Field coming close to paying off their mortgage. Why would they want to do this?
By having it, you are going to have a hard time convincing some players to come here and play which would put the players at a financial disadvantage. If you are say Shaquille O’Neal, making $20 million this year and play 1 game in Seattle per year at 9% tax, that is close to $22K just because he is playing in Seattle. However, if Shaq was a Sonic, he would have to pay $900,000 just because his job was located in Washington. Why would he want to come play here when he can go elsewhere and not have to pay that kind of DOE to the government?
March 6th, 2010 at 2:26 pm
http://manywordsforrain.blogspot.com/2010/03/12-amendments-of-hb-2912-my-legislature.html
I list the amendmets, their stated effect.
This bill has not been debated on the floor yet.
Steve, if/when HB 3027 passes I think we end up with a Public Facilities District that does take this, and the Convention Center, Safeco, etc, out of the hand of the legislature.
There is a 9.7 million dollar “fee” attached to HB 3027 that should motivate the legislature to act.
http://manywordsforrain.blogspot.com/2010/03/hoteliers-v-washington-state-resolved.html
March 6th, 2010 at 4:19 pm
Call me crazy I disgaree with taxing people in an area (and no one else) only because they have chose to participate in a certain profession. Especially, when this is simply justified because they make so much money “they can afford the tax”.
If you are going to used the argument that people who work in state funded buildings should pay taxes for those buildings then all state government workers, public university employees and even teachers should be required to pay an extra 10%.
This is discrimination…pure and simple. No different then sayin that people who are black or people with a first name that starts with A should pay higher taxes.
The WA State Dems are doing a very good job of turning me into a Republican.
March 6th, 2010 at 4:54 pm
Not wanting to plug my own blog or anything, http://nhlinseattle.blogspot.com/ , but I have laid out a financing package that could be an option should a group emerge as an NHL interest. It is based on an assumed $500 million cost for a new multi-purpose arena. It would consist of $150M from the NBA ownership group, $100M from the NHL group, and $250M from a variety of sources, including $75M from Seattle and $191M in Facility fees on ticket stubs. Many cities around the nation have turned to having a surcharge on tickets, tiered based on the amount of a seat. I was generous on my estimates, with $3 per seat fee on all events, $2 on shows, and $1 on high school events. This would have to increase over time, but that is a good amount in $191M. If somebody is going to spend $107 on a seat, what is $110?
When all is said and done, I think Fred Brown’s group idea will become the centerpiece. If you havent seen, check out L.A. Live in Los Angeles and AT&T Plaza in Dallas as ideas you can have for the arena here. Could be awesome!
March 6th, 2010 at 5:09 pm
I don’t think you are taxing people just because they make so much they can afford it. You’re taxing them because they exist in an industry that requires substantial public subsidies to by in and there is an inequity in the public return between markets.
This would apply to teams that play in public buildings, if teams wanted to avoid the tax they could build their own building and do it. If that doesn’t stack up financially then they have to work around it.
RRWRYIII I will tell you that the Ballmer group is the only group out there that does not (within their original proposal) consider a ticket surcharge as a team contribution to the building. The thought is that the real forces of supply and demand create a fixed price the public is willing to pay for a ticket. If someone is only willing to pay $50 for a ticket, at $51 they decide not to go to the game then they generally don’t care if the breakdown is $50 for the ticket and $5 for a surcharge. They just see the $55 out f their pocket. Therefore the team has to charge $45 instead of $50 and loses that additional $5 in revenue.
March 6th, 2010 at 5:11 pm
Myk, choosing to be a pro baseball player and being born with a particular skin pigment are not the same.
There are plenty of businesses, and classes of occupations, that have taxes applied to them to lay for their infrastructure.
Want to deliver goods by truck? Then your classification you have chosen has a menu of fees.
http://www.dol.wa.gov/driverslicense/fees.html
nobody is making anybody hit a baseball or drive a truck.
I am not clear on how the B & O tax would impact the individual income tax of a multimillionaire.
March 6th, 2010 at 5:14 pm
I’ll tell you Myk I think your argument comparing teachers to ballplayers is silly. The teachers are completely subject to how much cash is left over after the buildings are built. They lose the 10% by not getting raises. Comparing public employees to private guys working in a public building doesn’t hold up.
Where I do have issue is that it applies to athletes. I think that Bruce Springsteen should pay the same surcharge for making $1M to play in a public building that an athlete does. In this case though you have to undertand that the sports team would control the lease. They don’t want the concert guys to have to pay because then they would have to take less revenue for the 1 night rent. Same principle as with the season tickets. Bruce Springsteen wants his million bucks. If there’s a 10% tab he needs to shave $100K off his expenses or he goes to Portland and skips Seattle.
The people who control the building won’t care about their employees paying an additional surcharge. It isn’t my money so I don’t care much either. Its not like many of them cared about us when we were asked to pick up the tab. Why should we consider them if they are asked to pick up part of it?
March 6th, 2010 at 5:27 pm
I completely agree with Brian on the pro athlete vs some other form of entertainer that make millions of dollars.
Not only do those people not live here part-time and pay some sales, REET, etc taxes, but they leave with the wealth.
A pro sports franchise pays a B & O tax, Elton John does not.
That is bs.
In that instance AEG, and the like, pays much less putting concerts in KeyArena compared to just the B & O tax an NBA franchise pays.
March 6th, 2010 at 7:45 pm
Cmon Baker…thoes “fees” would amount to like 0.0005% of a person’s salary. Will minor league players have to pay this fee? What about the performers in the theaters that are state built?
You can say anything you want…but the biggest reason why people accept this as OK is because these guys are millionaires.
The teachers are completely subject to how much cash is left over after the buildings are built. They lose the 10% by not getting raises. Comparing public employees to private guys working in a public building doesn’t hold up.
- Really?? That isn’t true…they have a union and they work for competitive raises…the only reason they get less money then baseball players is because you can (it seems) hire anyone off the street to be a teacher…so they lack leverage.
The only other argument I can understand is that its ok to not tax teachers because they provide a beneift to the City…so are we arguing that sports are not important to the City? Seems pretty opposite of what we’ve been saying our entire lives.
Plus, how is it fair to tax people for playing in a funded building AFTER the building has been built? Are the Mariners supposed to build a whole new building now to avoid this tax? How would you feel if the state/federal government gave you a tax rebate (say the new home owner one) and then 10 years later said…since you took that rebate we will charge you more taxes.
March 6th, 2010 at 8:24 pm
Sue Bird could end up paying this.
The point I made was that a tax was applied to a particular group, that is not unusual.
The real issue I have, and have had, is Brian’s example.
Are Billy Joel and Elton John professionals, millionaires, and consuming the same public building as Sue Bird?
NBA “entertainment” is treated differently in that building.
Elton John’s net worth (I had to look this up) is 500 million. He is worth more than the Thunder franchise, but he would not have to pay this B & O tax.
Benroya Hall, McCaw Hall, both soaked up lots of public money, are home to other broken business models, build for the millionaire patrons.
The equity issue for me has to do with different forms of entertainment being taxed differently.
March 6th, 2010 at 8:39 pm
The difference between teachers and baseball players is that one is a right madated by the state constitution. The economy goes bad and people pull their kids out of private schools and put them in public schools, where they must be accepted.
One serves a right, the other serves a want.
March 6th, 2010 at 9:22 pm
I agree with the sentiment MYK is expressing here. I do not like the idea of taxing athletes in the way this bills seems to suggest. Politicains are just trying to raise revenue by tapping into the “Let’s get more from the rich” mantra. If we want to start talking fairness about all this we will likley have a long dialogue and debate etc. - But I’m sick of that simplistic and superficial mantra and I don’t see much “Fair” about it anyway.
But “Fairness” is interpreted differently of course. Most people tend to believe there is some sense of justice and some standard somewhere by which we can evaluate anything as being good or bad … fair or unfair …. but where does that come from etc. etc. - but now I drift towards the “philosophy of Ethics 101″ …. I’ll go back and just say I don’t like the tax on athletes that is being proposed.
I would also say if they did impose this I agree with those who say the tax should run across the board for everyone under the same guidelines … musicans etc.
March 6th, 2010 at 9:54 pm
I don’t like it. It just seems like a weasaly way to nickle and dime for more money. Money which will probably go to more sculpture parks, illuminated speed limit signs, and more important things.
Its a good question. What about the little guys that play those buildings? Will Microsoft be be taxed for using Safeco Field to hold their company meeting there?
March 7th, 2010 at 12:05 am
does anyone have any info on how many states with pro teams have taxes like these? i know brian said Oklahoma, California, and New York have them, and he also said most markets do.
March 7th, 2010 at 12:54 am
Politicains are just trying to raise revenue by tapping into the “Let’s get more from the rich” mantra. If we want to start talking fairness about all this we will likley have a long dialogue and debate etc. - But I’m sick of that simplistic and superficial mantra and I don’t see much “Fair” about it anyway
- I agree with this point as well. It is a simple way where the politicians are looking ot attack a group of people that are OBVIOUSLY in the minority of the State. Other than a legal case there really isn’t much they can do since itd be pretty difficult to vote against such matters.
Again…at it’s heart…this is an issue of taxing people “because they can afford it” and taxing people because “they deserve to be treated differently because they play a game for a living”. This is just the anti-sport sentiment on steroids.
We can debate over whether this is comparative to teachers…whatever. What about Mark Emmert. Shoud Mark Emmert have to pay taxes because he works for and in a state owned building? What about Lorenzo Romar and Steve Sarkisian (I’d say the players….but we know that the NCAA treats them like slaves)…they working for a sports team within a state run building.
Or, why wouldn’t we start taxing employees for companies that get tax breaks from the State? That is the same thing as building them a building. Should Microsoft and Boeing employees pay higher taxes?
Finally, as I said in my final point…it is 100xs more unfair that they are implementing this AFTER the fact. If they truly want to do this…then it should be going forward…you can’t retroactively hold things against someone that you’ve already decided to do. The law at the very least should say that if they build anothe arena that everyone in that Arena should have to pay higher taxes. Then the business could make a decision with that knowledge in their pocket. Enforcing things on people after the fact is just bad form…something that the propser of that ammendment would NEVER EVER allow to happen to him.
Speaking of which…why not charge them higher taxes??
March 7th, 2010 at 12:56 am
does anyone have any info on how many states with pro teams have taxes like these? i know brian said Oklahoma, California, and New York have them, and he also said most markets do.
- Brian did not say that…Brian said that those cities have State Income Taxes. If this was a statewide thing then I’d be ok with it. Well, I wouldn’t be OK with it…but the disagreements I’d have with it would have nothing to do with professional athletes.
It is interesting that Brian brought that up…I wasn’t aware that this is how it worked for athletes…honestly Im not sure I really believe that is fare either. I do business in many different states and never pay income taxes for those trips.
March 7th, 2010 at 2:17 am
“does anyone have any info on how many states with pro teams have taxes like these? i know brian said Oklahoma, California, and New York have them, and he also said most markets do.”
Here is a list of which states do and don’t have income taxes (plus Washington, D.C.). It looks like the only ones with big league teams that don’t have them are Washington state, Texas, Florida, and Tennessee. Only nine states overall don’t have them:
http://www.taxadmin.org/fta/rate/ind_inc.pdf
March 7th, 2010 at 3:09 am
Not sure how to react on this one. What is funny is that Senator Tom offered this same proposal to counter Senator Prentice’s Renton project back when most of us were forced into supporting Bennett’s faux efforts to keep the team here back in 2007. Tom was definitely not popular on these boards when his response to a constituent was posted on these boards saying that all teams need to do is cut payroll and that he boycotts the M’s because Safeco was such a wasteful project etc etc.
March 7th, 2010 at 8:19 am
myk, that is a good piece of writing above. . . you really got me thinking about matters beyond sports. well done.
March 7th, 2010 at 9:11 am
Myk, “I do business in many different states and never pay income taxes for those trips.”
this state is about to go after companies that do big business here and take advantage of B & O tax breaks by having a shell company set up here.
Plenty of states are looking at the tax advantages given to out of state business right now.
OK is giving Clay a new industry kickback right now, a tax advantage for him.
March 7th, 2010 at 9:22 am
JAS’ link should clue you in to why so many athletes have homes in Florida.
Fwiw, I think 10% is pretty high. If the players play half their games at home, it is really 5% of their salary, Seahawks, Mariners, Sounders, Storm (maybe).
Btw, it is possible that Seattle chokes, again, and King County, again, takes the lead on building a facility.
Brian is not kidding, there is a clinging to the KeyArena roofline as historic.
The building is up on blocks in the front yard, going nowhere right now.
March 7th, 2010 at 11:36 am
Yeah Myk I would really be cautious about states you do business in looking to collect. In most states you owe tax either B&O or income on any transactions you do in that state. i had to move back from California a decade ago because they wanted to start applying california state income tax to my washington earnings. I spent a certain amount of time as a dual state resident but after a while they wanted me to ante up.
States, like everyone else are about to get really aggressive on collections. They just have to because revenue is shy. They are going to go after people hard.
6 years ago I got audited on my coffee shop and they hit me with all kinds of little things. I bought Paper products as a reseller tax free but this also included register tape, paper towels, and toilet paper which is not technically for resale. Boom go back 7 years to break down your paper invoices and pay taxes plus penalties on the TP. I had magazine subscriptions that people could read in my coffee shop. The delivery crossed state lines so there we go, subject to B&O tax. when they decide they want to go after people they do.
This year the bills are crazy. The city, state, and county are flat out making crap up to bill you for. They are counting on a certain amount of people just not noticing “billing errors” or adjustments. Internally they are just looking hard for money that they never bothered to collect before but may have some claim to. Watch yourself.
I’m not speculating on the thing with athletes. We did a lot of research on it. Basically because the schedules are set it is not considered “1 time business” Lebron James is part of a business that has established “offices” in 30 different cities in their various states. He has 82 shcedule paid performances a year of which 8 take place in California. He has to declare 8/82nd of his wage to state income tax.
Of course he then does not declare Ohio tax for those nights. He also takes that state income tax and deducts it from his federal.
Again I just don’t see the comparison for teachers. You see Teachers are (after a few layers of things) basicaly state, county, or district employees who work in facilities owned by their respective employers. If Seattle School District has $10M in their budget and they pay $8M to facilities then they only have $2M left for salaries. The available revenue for teachers salaries is directly linked. In the NBA you have the building built by the taxpayes and but once it is in place there is absolutely no link between the amount spent and the revenues for the players. I just don’t think they are comparable.
Not to mention the previous comment that one is a mandated sevice and the other a luxury.
I am generally not a fan at all of a “tax the rich” mentality. In this case though some real consideration does have to be put into how much those guys have muscled the benefits out of the system without any reasonable way for them to contribute back into it directly. Also just the base inequity between states. When Californial decides to help build an arena they can literally say “in addition to indirect benfits and general stimulous the $120M of NBA payroll will result in a state income tax revenue of $12M.” We cannot make that same claim.
In the old days there was a much clearer argument that those guys would spend their money localy and generate sales tax. Now I can tell you that they dont. Danny Fortson had all his suits made special at tailors in Atlanta and NY. Robert Swift bought all his cars off E-Bay and paid people to drive them to him. Rashard was firmly based in Houston and probably spent 1/5th of his total in Washington state. They all have a hundred “boys” who they pay in cash to run off and bring them things from wherever. About the only areas they could really be counted on to contribute locally were restaurant tabs and the purchase of local greenery. Which by the way should be taxed.
The bonding requirement for an arena renovation ranged between $8-14M in the last couple of go-arounds. Do you think that $12M to the state may have been a difference maker and prevented we the fans from getting hosed?
Like I said none of those athletes ever stood up for me at all when I as a taxpayer was asked to pick up the tab. We never collected a single check from a single player. I want to watch them play ball. I don’t owe them a thing when it comes to protecting their pocketbook.
March 7th, 2010 at 1:19 pm
“Of course he then does not declare Ohio tax for those nights. He also takes that state income tax and deducts it from his federal.”
this is often missed by people, the sales tax can be deducted but it is a temporary law passed year to year, income tax is as Brian says. So, the high wage earner income tax being proposed in the Washington State Senate would shift that tax from the Feds to this state (assuming a millionaire has not figured out a way to hide assets). This is being coupled with a revision to taxing assets on LLC’s.
States are applying what is turning into a tarif on companies outside of their state that get a tax benefit (incentive) in thier home state. I think Montana does this, or is preparing to do it.
At some point the Feds should step in, but they like the bank lobby money and Delaware hold a special place in bankers hearts.
March 7th, 2010 at 3:55 pm
This is an interesting discussion - thanks for the comments.
It just frustrates me how screwed up our government is and how that try and hammer smaller business people. Brian’s reflections on how the Gov. is going after him is sad but true stuff. We need hope and change.
Did Gregoire and most of our state incumbents really get re-elected?
Lakers magic game was competative and fun to watch - i saw the last 7 minutes. I think Vince carter will crumble in the clutch in the playoffs. The Magic were better with Turkoglu. Kobe missed the final shot but he hit some big ones in 4th quater - he is a beast - so is Lebron. If they get to finals it would be fun to watch.
March 7th, 2010 at 4:26 pm
this state is about to go after companies that do big business here and take advantage of B & O tax breaks by having a shell company set up here.
Plenty of states are looking at the tax advantages given to out of state business right now.
- I guess I am confused. By doing business I meant I work for a company and I work in multiple locations throughout the year. But, when I say go to Oklahoma I am not required to pay income taxes for those days I am in town doing business…why shold an NBA player have to do the same?
Honest question here…
March 7th, 2010 at 4:28 pm
Nevermind…didn’t read your whole post.
March 7th, 2010 at 4:43 pm
JJ that game was fun to watch. I was hoping to get to see Matt Barnes put down Derek Fisher, but oh well. I really hope for a Magic-Lakers rematch. it’d be a great series. Kobe-LeBron Finals? I’ll take Cleveland in a sweep.
I personally like the tax idea. I am all for any tax that will get an arena and get us a team. I like the tax increases passing through the state today. We need it. I personally don’t mind a state income tax, I lived in California for three years and yes around 35% of what I made went away in taxes, but I got most of it back when tax time came around.
Thing about that in comparison to Washington and California is that the Cal State government is very corrupt, they give themselves hefty raises it seems every year. Yet so is the construction industry. Takes them roughly a year and a half to pave a mile stretch of highway. All the while the tax payers are picking up the bill.
I don’t think the corruption would be that big of an issue here in this state. Our construction projects do tend to get done on time here and I never hear of the senate or house giving themselves huge raises. I could have completely missed that though.
I do like the taxing of the athletes to get things done. It does help move things along though. It’s such a minuscule amount overall to what they actually will never notice that the money is gone. Especially if they invest what they do have responsibly.
Also if 41 other states are benefiting from this, why shouldn’t we?
March 7th, 2010 at 4:44 pm
If Seattle School District has $10M in their budget and they pay $8M to facilities then they only have $2M left for salaries. The available revenue for teachers salaries is directly linked
- I guess we are in disagreement over how the budget and the teacher’s salaries are negotiated. The teachers have a union. They fight for the best pay possible. I don’t believe that their salaries are based on “what is left” after capital improvements. Their salaries are based on what the school district can negotiate with the union. Essentially, the school districts are just like the NBA. The only reason why the teachers can’t make millions of dollars is that there are so many more people out there who can step in and do the job of being a teacher.
Also just the base inequity between states. When Californial decides to help build an arena they can literally say “in addition to indirect benfits and general stimulous the $120M of NBA payroll will result in a state income tax revenue of $12M.” We cannot make that same claim.
- But again…that is because EVERYONE in California pays an income tax. If they want to pass an income tax in WA (good luck) then fine…there can be debate and there can be discussion and all that jazz. But, to specifically target a small group of wealthy individuals seems predatory.
And, you can count me as one of those people who actually DOES believe that the athletes can afford this tax and I don’t think this will cause any sort of Athlete backlash towards Seattle. They probably won’t even notice…I strongly feel this is a moral what is right/what is wrong issue.
This year the bills are crazy. The city, state, and county are flat out making crap up to bill you for. They are counting on a certain amount of people just not noticing “billing errors” or adjustments. Internally they are just looking hard for money that they never bothered to collect before but may have some claim to. Watch yourself.
- Now I fully support the government coming after the money they are owed…but read what you are saying. Basically, because they are behind on revenues they are trying to find new ways to take money out of our pocket. As a state citizen am I just supposed to be OK with this? Should they not be attempting to find even more money in all the spending they waste or cutting their pet programs?
Essentially, they can claim that the athlete money will go towards those buildings (if that is what they are truly claiming)…but they also claimed that the existing taxes would go towards those buildings…and the money the Convention Center is generating would go to the Convention Center…but now suddenly they won’t go to any of those things and instead be used for “low income housing”. Does anyone really believe that in five years they wouldnt do the same with these taxes?
I said a bit earlier…the WA State Dems are pushing me extremely hard to become a Republican. Honestly, if I didn’t disagree so much with some of the Republican moral viewpoints I’d have switched long ago. In fact, I bet if they Republican’s could come up with a fiscally conservative, but socially liberal person to run for office they would have a tremendous chance of winning.
March 7th, 2010 at 4:48 pm
Not to mention the previous comment that one is a mandated sevice and the other a luxury
- As a person who wants sports to remain in this City I’m also a bit concerned with this comment. Much of the latter part of your comment basically stripped away many of the arguments we’ve used in the past to defend why the “anti-sports” crowd should care about the Sonics. They’ve been boiled down to a luxury. I thought we defended sports because of their cultural value as well as their value to the surrounding businesses.
Coming off and saying they are just a “luxury” and that we shouldn’t worry so much about their athletes only seems to reinforce what people like CVD stand for. That sports is something that you can live without…the term luxury almost makes it sound like something you spend excess (more than you should) money on just to have it.
That seems directly opposite of most of the people’s on this board’s POV…did things suddenly change?
March 7th, 2010 at 4:53 pm
Also if 41 other states are benefiting from this, why shouldn’t we?
41 other states are benefitting from an income tax…not an income tax on a specific group of people. I truly wonder if anyone here would be happy if their tiny industry was being singled out to pay an additional 10% of their salary…to a government with proven track record of waisting money and allowing tax revenue streams to shift to different projects then was originally written into law.
March 7th, 2010 at 4:56 pm
I suppose if it gets us a new team then great. But as for Tom, its obvious that he’s anti-sports and directs his anger against “overpaid” athletes.
March 7th, 2010 at 4:57 pm
I think Myk the point is that if your company actually had multiple offices, incorporated in multiple states and you had regularly scheduled work in those states(as in calender scheduled, not irregular sales calls) then they would say that a portion of your work was completed in that state and therefore subject to tax. they may not always collect it, but that does not mean that they were not entitled to it.
Seems pretty harmless on the small stuff but on a bigger scale what if the CEO of Citibank, who is required to be in NY City for access and information to run his business decided to take a paycheck issued out of Citibank of Florida. He worked 340 days per year in a “sattelite office” in NY and paid no NY taxes on that income. wouldn’t really be fair.
I don’t know legally what the threshold is but somewhere there has to be a line drawn between people who live on the Vancouver/Portland border and are just taking advantage of a good situation and those who are deliberately trying to bilk the system. If there way less money involved I don’t think they would chase the athletes. The money is big so they go after it in this case. They are probably entitled to it in a lot of other cases that they choose not to go after.
March 7th, 2010 at 5:27 pm
Having watched way too much of the Finance Committee I can tell you that they are going after Iregon plates on cars on this side of the state line, and a host of other things.
March 7th, 2010 at 5:38 pm
Well, this 10% tax is identified as going to the new section that creates the PFD.
http://apps.leg.wa.gov/documents/billdocs/2009-10/Pdf/Amendments/Senate/2912-S.E2%20AMS%20TOM%20CARL%20101.pdf
the really crazy thing is that if this passed then you would see palaces fir professional sports, paid for by sports, while other infrastructure around it decayed while Seattle processes it to death. So, do they then tax them less because the PFD would supplant the public infrastructure building part of local government.
March 7th, 2010 at 8:56 pm
Read the ammendment again…
B) A resident or nonresident athlete who has a gross annual income that is ten times the first-year base salary of a public school teacher in Washington state.
- So, Baker, your comment about Sue Bird is incorrect. The average salary for WNBA players is about $100k tops. The salary where this would kick in is $310k (based on what I could find as a teacher salary)…I am sorry…I just do not see how any of you can be behind this ammendment. So, Sue Bird (and other players) can play in these Arenas…remember the Storm already got a special agreement to play in the Key Arena. But, these big bad athletes…well they should have to pay.
This might be the most anti-sports thing ive seen coming from this state…and that is a pretty high bar. Heck, this is a situation where there is a chance that two different players on the Seahawks would end up paying different taxes, whch sort of defeats the whole point of the argument.
They are clearly trying to just target a specific group. A group that they know most people won’t really feel sorry for…in an effort to generate more revenue.
Honest question…does anyone really think that the money would only ever be used to build/maintain stadiums? Is there absolutely anything in the past history that would make you believe this would happen? Then, when it does happen…what are the athletes supposed to do? If they try and speak out they will be in the severe (obviously) minority.
This is a sham…
March 7th, 2010 at 9:00 pm
I think Myk the point is that if your company actually had multiple offices, incorporated in multiple states and you had regularly scheduled work in those states(as in calender scheduled, not irregular sales calls) then they would say that a portion of your work was completed in that state and therefore subject to tax. they may not always collect it, but that does not mean that they were not entitled to it.
- This is actually an intersting concept…so from a tax law perspective each NBA team is considered part of the overall NBA? The NFL has been trying to fight a court in the Supreme Court to argue that it is in fact a single entity and not a group of 32 different teams…wonder how this plays into that.
- As for your example about Citibank…Im pretty sure you shouldnt make laws to address people purposely trying to evade the tax…if that is the case then just try and arrest the ones who do.
Finally, why are the going after the players themselves? It makes much more sense to go after the team. The players DO NOT benefit from having the nicer stadium. The players make money based on the free market…
BTW…would this law effect the management of the team? Imagine having to pay higher taxes simply because of the company you chose to work for…
March 7th, 2010 at 9:03 pm
But as for Tom, its obvious that he’s anti-sports and directs his anger against “overpaid” athletes.
- Exactly…why did it suddenly become OK in America to decide who is overpaid? The legislators make $36k a year…for what 3 months of work?
March 7th, 2010 at 9:07 pm
I say this ammendment is terrible on many levels.
I’m 100% against ANY new state income tax in our state. The politicains will always try and sell it as a new tax only on the super rich - but once in place it will eventually hit just about everyone and create another whole new level of state buerocracy in terms of managing the tax. We would be better off just raising sales tax …. or even better …. cutting state spending.
March 7th, 2010 at 9:29 pm
I saw a commercial for Reclinerland and it reminded me of one of my favorite posts I ever made:
Mr Baker Says:
August 1st, 2007 at 6:07 pm e
Menace Says:
August 1st, 2007 at 4:48 pm
“Not everything is a reference to you.”
See, this is where Menace and so many others have this all wrong, and it’s a major problem with this site (I should have said something sooner). Scott doesn’t know this (sorry Steve and Brian for spilling the beans) everything is supposed to be all about Scott here, Scott doesn’t really know this, and he’s just begun to notice. It started many years ago on the ESPN message boards, after a while it became clear that we had to isolate Scott from the larger world wide web.
I’ve spent the day sleeping at Reclinerland, thinking and dreaming about what to do, and, now is as good of a time as any to have the intervention.
Scott, it’s time to let go of your negative feelings for Jelani McCoy.
There, I said it. I know I feel better.
Well, now what do Brian and Steve want to do with this web site?
I guess we could talk about Sonics players on the current roster.
http://sonicscentral.com/blog/?p=1371#comment-282121
ok, back to tax policy discussion…
March 7th, 2010 at 10:53 pm
Roy vs Foye!!!!!
Ridnour vs Watson!!!!!!!
I miss those days
March 7th, 2010 at 11:44 pm
Yes…last year I sort of didnt really care the NBA was gone…this year I miss heading down to the Key a few nights a month in the winter.
March 8th, 2010 at 8:55 am
As a person who wants sports to remain in this City I’m also a bit concerned with this comment. Much of the latter part of your comment basically stripped away many of the arguments we’ve used in the past to defend why the “anti-sports” crowd should care about the Sonics. They’ve been boiled down to a luxury. I thought we defended sports because of their cultural value as well as their value to the surrounding businesses.
We’ve been without the NBA for 2 1/2 years now. something along the lines of 35 other states have never had the NBA. Try going 2 1/2 years without teachers and the country starts to look something like Mad Max Beyond Thunderdome.
I love professional sports as much as the next guy. I think they are good investments and worth doing. But it is like saying that you want to buy a 4 bedroom house because the school district is better, the value is great, and the square footage is great for your kids. Having something be the right thing to do does not make it a necessity.
I’ve gotten along pretty well with politicals because I’ve tried to put this in perspective. Yes it is important. Yes it is the right thing to do. But no, it is not in the same category as basic social services. People respect the honest of that attitude.
This would not be a city thing, it would be a county thing and the county is a legitimate taxing authority for B&O and other taxes. I’m actually much happier having it at a county level where it is not an income tax in any way. I would strongly prefer that it apply equally to anybody in any industry than just athletes but so long as there is a direct tie that money for public facility surcharges be reinvested into those public facilities I am cool with it.
Finally, why are the going after the players themselves? It makes much more sense to go after the team. The players DO NOT benefit from having the nicer stadium. The players make money based on the free market…
I just don’t know how you can possilby say that Myk. It is absolutely silly. You cannot in any way make an argument that the city/state makes money off professional sports “indirectly” and then say that the players don’t benefit from the arenas because they don’t directly capture the money. The free market you are describing is one in which all parties split whatever pools of money are available. If you make the pools of money bigger then the players can negotiate for more. You seriously don’t think that having new arenas in all of these NBA markets contributes even a littel bit to the fact that Bobby Simmons makes 11 million a year. Not even a little bit?
The reason they go after the players and not the owners is that this is a direct attempt to get an NBA and/or NHL team back. The owners don’t give a damn what you tax the players. They do care what their own revenues are. If you put this on the franchise then effectively the state hasn’t done anything to lure a franchise here. As Mike Baker said you tax the players and then they write that tax off their federal, so you divert some money from the federal coffers to the county. You tax the players diverting money there. You leave the other entertainers specifically so the ownership does not see their take decrease.
If they put this on the franchise it would be another big old F you to David Stern.
Out of curriousity I took a look at yahoo to see if there were other “categories’ of B&O tax levels.
I go tthis article on first glance:
http://www.citizenreviewonline.org/Dec_2002/the_taxes.htm
But while Washington may offer fewer incentives than, say, Oregon, there are enough that the state treasury loses hundreds of millions of dollar a year.
Some benefit whole industries, such as the 1995 law that exempts manufacturing equipment and machinery from state and local sales taxes. The exemption saved businesses some $200 million in fiscal 2002, according to Revenue Department estimates.
Others are tailored for specific companies. The 2002 Legislature, for example, lowered B&O taxes for three years on “FAR part 145 certificated repair stations with an airframe class 4 rating and limited capabilities in instruments, radio equipment, and specialized services” — a reference to Goodrich Aviation Technical Services, which has a large jet-repair facility at Everett’s Paine Field.Similarly, in 1995 lawmakers agreed to lower taxes on companies that provide “international investment management services,” after Tacoma-based Frank Russell began making noises about moving some or all of its operations out of state. Frank Russell now pays B&O at the rate of 0.275 percent, 81.7 percent less than other financial-services firms.
So based on a quick review I think there is a pretty decent precedent for asying that the state goverment(probably doing a pretty crappy job of it) is allowed to look at industries and organizations and make some determinations of B&O tax levels based on what they see the positive economic impact and the cost of the industry are. If they determine that professional sports has a higher cost to have because of the infrastructure requirements then maybe they can tax it differently to make sure we’re competative with other regions.
What concerns me is that this broad discression is not something I generally like the government to have. They rarely do a good job with it.
Interesting discussion. This board always talks high level stuff on this basketball board.
I miss the NBA terribly this year.
March 8th, 2010 at 9:29 am
if right offer is made, Heisley will sell Grizzlies
http://www.realgm.com/src_wiretap_archives/65204/20100308/if_reasonable_offer_is_made_heisley_will_sell_grizzlies/
March 8th, 2010 at 9:33 am
On this idea of a tax on players who play in publically finaced arenas …. will the day ever come when pro sports needs to fund their own arena’s and stadiums? This would change alot … with the economy and anti-sports sentiment being strong this seems possible - but on the other hand - lots of people love their sports and maybe there will always be a city without a team willing to build ar arena or stadium to chase a team in a community where the citizens are fed up and refuse to re-model or build a new one. I don’t know what will happen but it seems this dynamic is important … Major sports leagues leveraging their influence to get cities/communities to pay the $$$ to provide venues for the pro teams to use. As much as I resent Stern and the NBA owners for doing this - in a sense it has worked for them. But, where they may get caught is when cities build new areans to chase a team but they really just don’t have the ability to support a team for the long haul - especially in the smaller markets.
What is crazy is there is plenty of money to go around and the league has a great product/game. But they have screwed things up so bad you see tons of empty seats all over the league and you have teams losing huge amounts of money and that is not all because of the economy going south just in the past 2 years.
The NBA needs a major overhaul on several levels - the current CBA negotiations could provide the context for that - but I really think they need new leadership that is creative and has more integrity … Stern has led the league right into many of their current problems.
March 8th, 2010 at 9:40 am
I think I miss the NBA in Seattle more this year than last year. Last year I was still so mad about everything I just didn’t care much. This year I have found myself watching a few games and remember how great the game is. I wish I had a team here to follow but I don’t see it happening for quite awhile and i see zero hope for public money building a new arena. Sometimes I think that vision needs to die, and the faster it dies the sooner people can explore more creative private money options and be more free to look beyond the Key arena and Seattle.
March 8th, 2010 at 9:41 am
Meanwhile, I kind of hope the Mavs do something in the playoffs. I like Dirk and mark Cuban voted against the Sonics move and I like him alot. No matter how I slice it up …. I does sting to see KD and Westbrook and Green developing and knowing Presti has tons of cap space, #1 picks and options … the thunder would be a fun team to follow and watch develop and KD will be a top-5 player in the league for years to come.
March 8th, 2010 at 9:52 am
Thanks Seattle fan for link above …. here are Memphis owners comments .
“I’ll reiterate my position again. I’m 73 years of age. My family is not going to take over this basketball team. My point is very simple,” he said. “If the right person makes a reasonable offer for the team I will sell it. If the minority (local) owners want to come up with a reasonable offer, I would love to sell it to them. I think they would make great owners. If it’s not to be, it’s not to be.
I wish Howard had gone public with a statement somewhat like this before selling to Clay - given anyone locally 60-90 days to buy the team and then said if no one locally steps up he would sell to anyone. If no one had steped up I could have stomached the whole thing more easily if Clay had then just said … “I’m buying this team to move them to OKC because no local buyer in seattle stepped up”. Maybe either way we lose the team - but I could have understood and accepted it better. Just me - I just hated the deception and corruption by Stern and Clay and the dishonesty, stupidity of Gregoriere and Nickels who I thing were simply cowards. The whole thing was such a mess.
March 8th, 2010 at 10:06 am
I’ve gotten along pretty well with politicals because I’ve tried to put this in perspective. Yes it is important. Yes it is the right thing to do. But no, it is not in the same category as basic social services. People respect the honest of that attitude.
- Brian…obviously I was being a little tongue in cheek with the overall argument. However, I still think that calling sports a luxury significantly weakens your argument to the anti-sports crowd. Do you think that Nick Licata considers the sculpture park a “luxury”?
Obviously, he feels that schools and the other “staples” of a working community are necessary. But, after those are paid for he believes that his entertainment option of choice should be number one when it comes to public funding. Heck, it is painfully obvious that the person who wrote the ammendment believes the same thing…that is why he only chose to tax the people who participate in the things he doesn’t care about. If it was truly a fairness issue it wouldn’t be directed at only one industry when (as pointed out) there are numerous other industries that gain from public financing.
I would strongly prefer that it apply equally to anybody in any industry than just athletes but so long as there is a direct tie that money for public facility surcharges be reinvested into those public facilities I am cool with it.
- Again…what past events can you point too that makes you honestly believe that this money will only ever be used for that purpose? The existing taxes that were by law forced to be used for those purposes will now be used to fund basically everyting BUT those stadiums.
March 8th, 2010 at 10:18 am
If you make the pools of money bigger then the players can negotiate for more. You seriously don’t think that having new arenas in all of these NBA markets contributes even a littel bit to the fact that Bobby Simmons makes 11 million a year. Not even a little bit?
- Not really…sure the additional revenues lead to larger contracts. But, I think it was proven in this City that the league seems to operate in the opposite manner. It (stupidly?) hands out these large contracts and then comes back to their Cities saying that they need more revenue streams to offset their costs. Without those revenue streams they then threaten to leave…and in this case they left to OKC for (supposedly) a better revenue generating building. The biggest problem from the (a) City’s POV is that there is always someone out there willing to make a better deal.
So based on a quick review I think there is a pretty decent precedent for asying that the state goverment(probably doing a pretty crappy job of it) is allowed to look at industries and organizations and make some determinations of B&O tax levels based on what they see the positive economic impact and the cost of the industry are.
- Every example that has been made in this area has been of industries getting either tax breaks or tax increases. While those things could lead to a direct impact in salary…it is not signaling out a specific group of people. It is signaling out the business. Can anyone find a group of employees that are asked to pay higher (significantly higher) taxes simply because of their line of work? Baker showed the fees that a truck driver has to pay, but that is about a 1% hit (if that) on their bottom line.
Finally, this would all be much easier to swallow if the local government didn’t have such an obvious dislike for professional athlets. If, this was in fact part of a significantly larger plan that was laid out to the public with a step by step process on how it would be used, and the long term implications…then I’d be less skeptical. But, based on everything I’ve seen over the last five years…this looks like a money grab…pure and simple.
March 8th, 2010 at 10:20 am
I miss the NBA terribly this year
- Have to admit I do too…honestly I don’t really miss the NBA product…but I do miss having a winter team to rally around and just talk sports.
March 8th, 2010 at 10:28 am
Finally (x2)…it’d be nice before hunting down a tiny portion of our population the State would actually start looking at themselves and how they spend money…
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2011277862_statewages07m.html
March 8th, 2010 at 10:41 am
Sonicsgate Bonus #2: George Karl on coaching GP & Kemp
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i1uC-jU1550
we plan to release a new one of these every week. lots of great stuff in the tank.
March 8th, 2010 at 11:11 am
Have any of you guys read Black Planet about the Sonics? Bill Simmons/Chuck Klosterman referenced it in their Podcast and it sounds interesting. Didn’t know there was a book like that out there.
March 8th, 2010 at 12:49 pm
Myk posed a great question. What makes us think this possible tax would go back to sports/stadiums etc? That is a HUGE ASSUMPTION IMO. I have a hard time believing that anything including the word “tax” and “sports” will get the green light around here. The opposition will come out of the woodwork.
Did someone say Durant is a top 5 player? I say top 7-8 at this point. But he is closing in on Top 5. What a difference a year makes huh? All the KD criticism seems to have taken the route of “Roy vs Foye”.
Roy vs Foye. hahhahahahhahah
March 8th, 2010 at 12:52 pm
Black Planet
http://www.amazon.com/Black-Planet-Facing-during-Season/dp/0803293542
March 8th, 2010 at 1:08 pm
If there is one potential Sonics 2.0 team I covet to move here above all others, it’s the Griz. They have no real “legacy” to speak of and their roots are in the Pacific NW. Their talented starting 5 is set for years, assuming Rudy Gay is resigned. I’ve got no other NBA agenda but to dream at this point…Paging Mr. Ballmer…
March 8th, 2010 at 1:16 pm
- Durant might be a top 3 player. Wish I had more stomach for the NBA…I’d love to see how he was able to turn things around. Westbrook has also made a mini-leap. Maybe a sign and trade for Bosh (using Jeff Green) is in the works next year.
- Did you read the book Menace? Just wondering…the two guys (two of my favorite writers) were very positive about the book. It came up while talking about why everyone hates Duke and their army of white players.
March 8th, 2010 at 1:27 pm
I also have no trust in the Government that when they say taxes will go for specific things that they will hold to that over the long haul. Once they get the money it can gradually be shifted around in all kinds of ways. Soemtimes they keep their promise on this stuff …. but really MYK’s suspicion on this is warrented.
I said KD will likley be a top 5 player for years to come. I’m not sure he is top 5 this year or not - but if not it is close … and moving forward I think KD will be in that conversation for years when people ask - “Who are the top 5 players in the NBA?”
I see KD as a superstar not an all-star - I don’t know what his “Ceiling” is - but it is high - he is just the real deal.
March 8th, 2010 at 1:52 pm
the amendment states the 10% tax goes into a fund managed by a new Public Facilities District, ensuring funds are spent as intended.
March 8th, 2010 at 3:46 pm
the amendment states the 10% tax goes into a fund managed by a new Public Facilities District, ensuring funds are spent as intended.
- Just like the other law stated things like:
Funding for Civic Amenities
Specific provisions, including specifications of the dollar amount of funding, are provided for the
use of revenues under the bill for construction, improvement, debt financing, and refinancing of
civic amenities. Civic amenities include any sports, cultural, or other civic amenity that promotes
tourism or economic development including, without limitation, a sports stadium, a multipurpose
public arena, and a stadium and exhibition center.
Funding for Civic Amenities
Specific provisions, including specifications of the dollar amount of funding, are provided for the
use of revenues under the bill for construction, improvement, debt financing, and refinancing of
civic amenities. Civic amenities include any sports, cultural, or other civic amenity that promotes
tourism or economic development including, without limitation, a sports stadium, a multipurpose
public arena, and a stadium and exhibition center.
In each calendar year 2013 through 2020, $4.5 million of the tax must be used for art museums,
cultural museums, heritage museums, heritage and preservation programs, the arts, and the
performing arts in all parts of the county, of which $500,000 must be used for increasing access
opportunities and participation in arts and heritage programs by under-served minority
communities. Any remaining amounts collected each year must be used for tourism promotion
and to pay the costs of constructing or improving civic amenities, including constructing or
improving a multipurpose public arena for a national basketball association franchise and
improving the baseball stadium.
This is the first time I’ve actually linked to a CMIT item and actually felt good about it.
http://www.citizensformoreimportantthings.org/3233.HBAnalysis.pdf
March 8th, 2010 at 3:47 pm
Last time I checked…low income housing did nothing to increase tourism…unless you assume having homeless people on your streets scare away tourists.
March 8th, 2010 at 3:55 pm
Myk - “why did it suddenly become OK in America to decide who is overpaid?”
I think your answer is in your vote. One party claims this right to decide that. Your conversion is nearly complete if you are truly concerned about this statement.
March 8th, 2010 at 4:20 pm
I think your answer is in your vote. One party claims this right to decide that. Your conversion is nearly complete if you are truly concerned about this statement.
- To be fair…there is a difference between deciding which person makes too much for the job they do and deciding all people who make a lot of money should contribute more to society.
March 8th, 2010 at 4:27 pm
And not to get all political…but its has always amused me that Convervatives have no problem not judging how much money I make…but then thinks they can tell me what is and is not moral (expect when it comes to guns of course)…
March 8th, 2010 at 4:47 pm
Have not read that book. But it looks pretty interesting. Might have to check it out.
Jerome Randle Pac-10 POY!!!!!
March 8th, 2010 at 5:07 pm
Jerome Randle Pac-10 POY!!!!!
- Don’t get me started…lol
March 8th, 2010 at 5:10 pm
“Don’t get me started…lol”
Too late. I saw you on the times blog. LOL
March 8th, 2010 at 5:17 pm
I saw your posts on the PI board. I probably made you mad with some of my comments. Nothing new.
For the record he was totally deserving, but not “robbed”
March 8th, 2010 at 5:30 pm
All depends on your definition of being robbed. I had no problem with Harden winning the POY award last year because he had the better stats and meant more to the team. This is the same argument this year. Yet people seem to be trying to compare Qpon to players from the past and not to Randle.
This would be like if LeBron doesn’t win MVP this year despite winning the first four Player of the Month awards.
March 8th, 2010 at 6:00 pm
I just do not think its shocking or beyond the stretch of the imagination that Pondexter, Randle, or even Fields could have won the award. To me they were all good in a really bad conference.
If they gave it to Klay Thompson then you could say “robbed”.
March 8th, 2010 at 6:18 pm
For the record I would have voted for QPon as POY. My second place vote would have gone to Randle.
Its not like Foye won ROY over Roye. LOL
March 8th, 2010 at 8:26 pm
Hey Guys
I haven’t been here in years, haven’t watched any NBA since the move. But I got something in the mail recently that I think a lot of people would like to see. I scanned it. Where can I post it so anyone can look?
Vin
March 8th, 2010 at 8:33 pm
You can’t upload here, you’ll have to upload via third party and then link us to it.
March 8th, 2010 at 8:37 pm
ok
March 8th, 2010 at 8:39 pm
http://i998.photobucket.com/albums/af106/rollercoasterstroller/sonics.jpg
March 8th, 2010 at 9:43 pm
Would the 10% be incremental? Meaning every $ over $310,000 is ten cents to the dollar, or is it flat?
I would be more supportive (cautiously though) for a tax on the tenant franchise that is set to a percentage of their payroll, and then let the them factor in how to pass along the cost to their rosters. That would still be a legitimate B&O tax on the franchise, rather than directly on its employees, who have ZERO ownership stake in the franchise and thus disqualifying them from the tax.
March 8th, 2010 at 10:46 pm
I find that a much more acceptable scenario as well…but I dunno…
March 8th, 2010 at 11:18 pm
Another good article:
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/jontalton/2011292208_biztaltoncol09.html
Enjoyed this one:
For the record, Washington ranks ninth-best in the nation for its “business tax climate,” according to the Tax Foundation. But the ranking is misleading because of the lack of an income tax. It comes in 33rd in the corporate tax rate. Businesses complain that the state’s business-and-occupation tax is overly complicated and arbitrary.
March 9th, 2010 at 5:35 am
“state’s business-and-occupation tax is overly complicated and arbitrary.”
problem solved, the House bill strips out a bunch of exemptions (arbitrary to one person is somebody else’s profit margin).
March 9th, 2010 at 11:59 am
problem solved, the House bill strips out a bunch of exemptions (arbitrary to one person is somebody else’s profit margin).
- I think it’d take a real visionary leader to basically say “we know the system is broke and we are going to fix it”…and then strip back all the programs and start over. If the person was successful he’d be a god in this Region.
There is going to be a populace revolt at somepoint…hope the Democrats understand that…
March 9th, 2010 at 4:07 pm
Am I reading this right? Spend $15 million to build an attraction that will produce revenues of $10 mil over the life of the project?
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2011299316_glasshouse09m.html
Financial concerns aside, this is a really dumb idea. Not that that’s a surprise … but I don’t see this garnering much if any repeat business.
March 9th, 2010 at 4:57 pm
The article is pretty unclear. It appears that the “Wright family would pay to build the building”, but the City would “own the building”. I guess my “this doesn’t make any sense” ears pop up when I see that it appears they are saying that someone would privately build a $15 million dollar building and then lease the building from the City for $10 million…
Oh well…that isn’t even the dumbest part of the article. The dumbest part of this article is:
“We’re taking green, open space and closing it off in a very walled fashion, and people can only enter into that if they can pay,” she said. “My hope and dream would be to make the Seattle Center Seattle’s ‘Central Park,’ and the more green space we give away, the less we’re going to have a Central Park.”
Does anyone think that at any point of our life Seattle Center will be considered the “Central Park” of Seattle? Does she realize that we live in an area where we can get that park like setting rather easily? Does anyone really want the Seattle Center to be like “Central Park?
March 9th, 2010 at 4:59 pm
BTW…this might be some sort of anti-Northwest statement…but doesn’t Dale Chihuly have enough museum space in this town? Is there really a need in the market to see more of his stuff?
March 9th, 2010 at 5:24 pm
You also don’t have to PAY to get into Central Park. It’s a park…
March 9th, 2010 at 5:25 pm
I guess my “this doesn’t make any sense” ears pop up when I see that it appears they are saying that someone would privately build a $15 million dollar building and then lease the building from the City for $10 million…
I agree. That’s like me saying I’ll pay to build a house on your land and then rent the house from you.
March 9th, 2010 at 5:27 pm
Also, unless I get to walk through there with a baseball bat, a glass museum sounds like the most boring thing on Earth.
March 9th, 2010 at 6:18 pm
Especially considering I believe there is one down in Tacoma. TBH, the only time i want to see Chihuly sculptures is at 2am when I walk through the Bellagio
March 9th, 2010 at 6:39 pm
Xteve you beat me to it.
Hey all - hope you are well!
At this point (aside from a Key remodel) I think Bagshaw is on the right track; IE make the Center more open like a park, keeping those existing services, bulidings and other physical aspects that are still viable to draw people. Central Park is a big deal in NYC, and although I admit it’s a joke to compare Seattle Center to Central Park, I think she’s on the right track in that Seattle needs more parks & open space.
March 9th, 2010 at 7:20 pm
I saw that a couple days ago over at the Stranger. I said mean things.
March 9th, 2010 at 8:39 pm
“We need to pass the bill so that we can find out what’s in it”…N.P.
March 9th, 2010 at 9:34 pm
The whole glass museum is a joke. Same thing with Seattle Center becoming the next Central Park. Millennium Park in Chicago would be a much better goal. Much cooler.
March 10th, 2010 at 12:07 am
Watching the news glad to know that police men will be helping agressive pandhandlers in the City know what they can and cannot do. Oh, and if anyone needs a $50 ticket it’d be those people who are panhandling…
March 10th, 2010 at 1:26 am
Interesting Funfact: I was living on Capitol Hill about 15 years ago when a petition to criminalize aggressive panhandling on Broadway was going around which eventually became law. Who was behind it? Why it was that civic beacon of compassion and virtue Howard Schultz of course.
March 10th, 2010 at 7:24 am
in nyc, if you wanna remember that a natural world exists apart from the asphalt, concrete, steel, and exhaust, you can: a) stroll thru central park for a few minutes (avoiding the bushes after dusk due to the mating habits of some of the local fauna); b) take a subway over to brooklyn and hit the beach (look out to sea, not back at the skyline or coney island); c) borrow a car and drive up to new england, or nw jersey’s skylands, or penna’s poconos (take you a few hours, though).
in seattle, if you wanna remember the above, you look over your shoulder. . .
central park in seattle is about as sensible as mt. rainier in nyc.
March 10th, 2010 at 8:44 am
Not to mention that Woodland Park has 90 acres and is just north on Aurora AVE.
I love the idea of having more things to do in and around Seattle Center as the idea should be to get as many people as possible to go there.
But really? Another museum for the glass guy? I like the idea of him designing the museum but couldn’t we find something else important to build a museum about?
March 10th, 2010 at 10:42 am
“Millennium Park in Chicago would be a much better goal. Much cooler.”
It SO would be. That’s exactly what Seattle needs to aim for. If not at the Center along Alaskan Way.
March 10th, 2010 at 12:14 pm
But really? Another museum for the glass guy? I like the idea of him designing the museum but couldn’t we find something else important to build a museum about?
- I also think its funny that his museums are the only museums I can think of where there is a goal to sell such pieces of art. Somehow he’s able to turn his art galleries into being considered a museum
March 10th, 2010 at 12:40 pm
This one is going to be different. It will have a pirate theme.
March 10th, 2010 at 1:27 pm
Chihuly is a great artist, but it’s hardly like he is the only great glass artist around. He’s overrated and has more than gotten his due. The idea of building a museum for him at Seattle Center is one of the more daft ideas I’ve heard recently. That’s saying something.
March 10th, 2010 at 2:08 pm
Lets protest this museum. We should show up at the ribbon cutting in full Sonics gear and chant “waste of money”.
No offense to Chihuly either. His stuff is great. But seriously…….arent there “more important things”?
March 10th, 2010 at 2:50 pm
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/politicsnorthwest/2011307368_stadium_arts_tax_bill_dies_aga.html
Why am I not shocked?
March 10th, 2010 at 3:29 pm
‘”We feel like arts and heritage are being held hostage to stadiums,” said Jim Kelly, executive director of 4Culture, King County’s arts and culture agency.’
Funny you should feel that way. My feeling is the complete opposite.
March 10th, 2010 at 3:33 pm
It seems that everyone’s pet project is of greater importance than the Sonics/NBA to the local power brokers. It just goes to show you what a negative impression David Stern and his merry band of pirates made on this region. It’s almost as if the Sonics and the NBA have become untouchables here.
March 10th, 2010 at 3:35 pm
No offense to Chihuly either. His stuff is great. But seriously…….arent there “more important things”?
- Basically…what I’ve figured out from the article is that the Space Needle people were willing to build this $15 million dollar building on a piece of land and pay rent and gather admission to this “museum” because they figured they could make up the additional money from taking a cut from the sales. Again…sounds like nothing more than a glorified art gallery to me.
March 10th, 2010 at 3:36 pm
‘”We feel like arts and heritage are being held hostage to stadiums,” said Jim Kelly, executive director of 4Culture, King County’s arts and culture agency.’
- Agree Menace (see us Cougs and Dawgs aren’t so different)…without those stadiums the tax revenue stream wouldn’t even exist.
March 10th, 2010 at 3:53 pm
This is my favorite park in Seattle. $225k from Shah Safari? The rest was pretty much picked up by Seattle, King County, and the State.
Counterbalance Park. $1.1 mm. enjoy
http://z.about.com/d/seattle/1/0/s/2/-/-/CounterBalancePark_Lower-Queen-Anne.jpg
Why didn’t I get to vote on this?
March 10th, 2010 at 3:56 pm
Those lights cost $1.1M?
Why can’t we build a $350M museum of sports and history that also happens to have 19,500 seats and a basketball court and is hockey compatible?
March 10th, 2010 at 3:57 pm
I read an article a few months back, can’t remember in what publication, but it said youth violence is up 212% since the summer of 2008… coincidence? I think not.
March 10th, 2010 at 5:59 pm
Poor Oregon. Masoli gets caught stealing and now this…..
http://content.usatoday.com/communities/campusrivalry/post/2010/03/report-pj-carlesimo-on-oregons-short-list—-even-though-ernie-kent-hasnt-been-fired-yet/1
March 10th, 2010 at 8:02 pm
ESPN the magazine had an interview with Nate Robinson. They gave him an oppurtunity to talk about the Sonics. I think he mostly missed.
Kenny Mayne: You grew up in Seattle right? How hard did it hit you when the Sonics moved?
Nate: Yeah, I’m from the south side, kind of in Skyway, so it cut me deep. My rookie year when the Knicks played there, the fans gave me a standing ovation. Now I can’t play in front of my home crowd, or my mother, grandmother, friends and family.
KM: Is there anything in particular that immediately makes you think of Seattle?
NR: The rain. I was always playing football in the rain, or working on my basketball game in the rain. Those are great memories. When it rains now, I think of home, sweet home.
March 10th, 2010 at 8:51 pm
so is there even a next year? if there is not enough support to tax athletes to pay for stadiums and arenas,will ANYTHING ever pass? i just don’t see a completely privately funded arena. oh well, i guess the good news is that they could tax athletes anytime, so if the taxes expire, it won’t matter. i i just wish they would impose the tax on athletes and give the county authority to use it for stadiums and arenas. i actually think that taxing athletes is the best solution.
March 10th, 2010 at 9:25 pm
HAHAHAHAHA Menace…nice pull….
Man…there seriously might be 50 people at the WSU v Oregon game right now. Depressing.
March 10th, 2010 at 9:35 pm
i think the fact that we thought they were going to tax athletes to build stadiums and arenas but weren’t is actually a good thing. if we brought up a bill like that in a future year, i have a hard time thinking it wouldn’t pass. we later found out that that wasn’t the idea, but in my opinion that is the strategy we should employ to build an new arena. they could impose b&o taxes on athletes at any time, no tax expiring to worry about. if this was the idea from the beginning of the session, i think it would fly.
March 10th, 2010 at 9:46 pm
Menace Says:
March 10th, 2010 at 3:29 pm
‘”We feel like arts and heritage are being held hostage to stadiums,” said Jim Kelly, executive director of 4Culture, King County’s arts and culture agency.’
Funny you should feel that way. My feeling is the complete opposite.
it is both so we have neither.
March 10th, 2010 at 10:53 pm
Why is it that the state legislature has control over the fate of taxes that are exclusive to King County? Shouldn’t those be more properly under the control of the county itself?
March 11th, 2010 at 11:20 am
So we Cannot have a special session for anything to do with sports but we can have a special session to finish up a budget that should have been done by now. C’mon it is 3/4 Democratic with no opposition and you cannot get your job done by the deadline…You can cost the tax payers $20,000 a day to figure out a way to raise all kinds of taxes and cost us more money but you cannot spend $20,000 to figure out a way to extend a tax that will Generate jobs and income in the future…I love this state
March 11th, 2010 at 11:55 am
You can cost the tax payers $20,000 a day to figure out a way to raise all kinds of taxes and cost us more money but you cannot spend $20,000 to figure out a way to extend a tax that will Generate jobs and income in the future…I love this state
- Im sure they assume they can just deduct it from the $1.6 million they want Ichiro to pay them for his year’s work.
March 11th, 2010 at 2:08 pm
From today’s Hollinger chat…lol
Sean (Reno)
John, assuming the worst, could K-Mart’s injury be a blessing in disguise or am I just being too optimistic? Johan Petro seems like a guy with a bunch of untapped potential.
John Hollinger (12:06 PM)
Yes, you’re being too optimistic, and the “untapped” part is the thing that’s kept him from being a rotation player. He’ll be OK on D but he’s a 5, not a 4, so that affects some match-ups; he also has terrible offensive instincts.
Oh how much I miss seeing fans getting excited for one of our untapped bigs
March 11th, 2010 at 2:28 pm
Brian,
I would like to speak with you about life in Seattle after basketball for SI.com. How best can I contact you in the next week? I can be reached at paul_forrester@simail.com.
Thanks
March 11th, 2010 at 4:18 pm
The sad fact is that Petro has proved to be the best of the Sonics sad sack draft trio of bigs, including Swift and Sene. At least he wasn’t a lottery pick. Serge Ibaka is way better than any of these guys. Hope they saved their money.
March 11th, 2010 at 8:05 pm
Anyone want in on a NCAA tourney bracket. No money, just for fun.
March 11th, 2010 at 11:56 pm
Man..they showed GP tonight during the Pac 10 tournament…he’s starting to look a little overweight and a little old, which of course makes me feel old. Dang
March 12th, 2010 at 12:03 am
He did, he’s getting a tad gray.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNIj9ZYCF48 <—– SOLID FRIED (GREEN &) GOLD
March 12th, 2010 at 8:47 am
“‘”We feel like arts and heritage are being held hostage to stadiums,” said Jim Kelly, executive director of 4Culture, King County’s arts and culture agency.’”
Fine, no stadiums no mandatory 1% for the arts for you Mr. Kelly.
March 12th, 2010 at 10:06 am
The thing Mr Kelly doesn’t mention is how he has other ways of getting money. Neighborhood match grants, Pro Park Levy funding, Capital improvment funds etc etc etc
Our thing does not have those avenues available
March 12th, 2010 at 10:20 am
Fine, no stadiums no mandatory 1% for the arts for you Mr. Kelly.
- I know…his line of reasoning: “If it wasn’t for the stadiums we wouldn’t have gotten all the funding. But, with “all” the stadiums built…we should get all the money now”…how do people become so stupid?
Also, I love parks…but have any of you driven through the Seattle area and felt we needed more parks? I feel like there is a park/school park area on every street.
March 12th, 2010 at 1:48 pm
I have nothing against parks or the arts. But fair is fair. Maybe its time to get on the offensive and start protesting everything else? We can use the same argument that “money should be spent on other things”. I mean thats what happens to all sports/arena issues. Fight fire with fire.
Where is CVD when these artsy fartsy projects get funded? What is there return?
March 12th, 2010 at 3:00 pm
Menace: Maybe its time to get on the offensive and start protesting everything else?
Thats what I was saying many thread back and nobody seemed interested. Bummer.
March 12th, 2010 at 3:21 pm
Well I am half joking. Its a little silly to protest things that we aren’t seriously against right? Its definitely a sour grapes approach. We take a serious hit on the credibility department. But at the same time…….what do we have to lose?
March 12th, 2010 at 4:10 pm
“If you can’t get with this team, your phone number must begin with 206. (Seattle residents are free to seethe at what’s happened since their erstwhile SuperSonics left town in 2008. Just remember to direct your anger at owner Clay Bennett and NBA commissioner David Stern, not the players and coaches.) ”
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/columns/story?columnist=adande_ja&page=Thunder-100312
March 12th, 2010 at 5:09 pm
Proof that the Redskins are the NY Knicks of the NFL:
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=4990553
That’s like announcing you just signed Zach Randolph to anchor your frontcourt. Oh right the Knicks already did that too. Trendsetters!
March 12th, 2010 at 5:11 pm
“Where is CVD when these artsy fartsy projects get funded?”
SEIU doesn’t pay him to give a f%^& about that.
March 12th, 2010 at 7:53 pm
Well I am half joking. Its a little silly to protest things that we aren’t seriously against right? Its definitely a sour grapes approach. We take a serious hit on the credibility department. But at the same time…….what do we have to lose?
- Dammit Menace…dont you realize that without hypocrisy you can’t be in politics?
- $4 million a year for LJ? Ouch…
March 12th, 2010 at 9:59 pm
http://www.kjram.com/cc-common/mediaplayer/player.html?redir=yes&mps=softyplayer.php&mid=http://media.ccomrcdn.com/media/station_content/645/SOFTY_3_12_10_Payton_1268425210_12828.mp3?CPROG=PCAST?CCOMRRMID&CPROG=RICHMEDIA&MARKET=SEATTLE-WA&NG_FORMAT=sports&NG_ID=KJR950AM&OR_NEWSFORMAT=&OWNER=&SERVER_NAME=www.950kjr.com&SITE_ID=645&STATION_ID=KJR-AM&TRACK=
A little interview with Gary Payton. He no longer watches the NBA. Something to be said when one of the 50 greatest players ever no longer watches a product that he participated in.
March 14th, 2010 at 8:08 pm
Anyone watch the 30 for 30 documentry tonight?? I have to say that I think Reggie Miller might be the most overrated NBA player in my lifetime
March 14th, 2010 at 9:04 pm
Myk, that he may be, but also while you were watching that didn’t like the old NBA? back when the game was physical and there were actual rivalries and people legitimately didn’t like each other?
I miss that NBA, I like a physical game. I like it when a guard goes into the lane and gets the holy hell beat out of him and there may or may not be a call.
I hate how everyone is friends, helps each other up, refuses to throw a cheap elbow to the gut to send a point. I may be completely out of touch with everything, but that is the NBA I loved.
March 15th, 2010 at 12:59 am
I love 30 for 30. They have all been really entertaining. Wanna hear something funny? Reggie Miller produced that film.
Overrated? A little. I guess it depends on who you talk to. He gets a lot of love for his amazing one time feat. But do they ever talk about him for anything else? I hardly ever remember him getting that much hype. But he wasn’t a terrible player. 18 ppg career avg and he shot the 3 a t a pretty good percentage.
March 15th, 2010 at 1:14 am
You know who I’ve always thought was pretty overrated? Scottie Pippen
March 15th, 2010 at 1:21 am
I thought Scottie was a great roleplayer as long as there was a better person that could handle the pressure of final shots and what not.
But could you imagine if we kept Pippen instead of trading him for Olden?
PG - Payton
SG - Hawkins
SF - Pippen
PF - Kemp
C - Perkins
Tell me with that lineup that we don’t win at least a few championships. Us losing our team didn’t start with the Kemp/Baker trade, it started when we traded Pippen. That trade cost us a few championships.
March 15th, 2010 at 3:01 am
I’m forbidden from listening to the audio but can you tell me if Payton’s lack of nba interest is at least partially due to the skulduggery that happened here?
March 15th, 2010 at 4:38 am
He didn’t outright say, but I think it could have been implied. Main focus of the interview was getting a team back here by 2012-2013.
March 15th, 2010 at 8:18 am
I love 30 for 30. They have all been really entertaining. Wanna hear something funny? Reggie Miller produced that film.
- I don’t find that surprising at all. He sort of came off as a bit of a D-Bag in the thing (IMO). What I found interesting was how much he savored the moment talking about Starks missing those two FTs when he did the EXACT SAME THING they year before. Being that Starks was a 78% FT shooter and Reggi was a 90% FT shooter and the undeniable star of that team I consider his misses much worse.
Overrated? A little. I guess it depends on who you talk to. He gets a lot of love for his amazing one time feat. But do they ever talk about him for anything else? I hardly ever remember him getting that much hype. But he wasn’t a terrible player. 18 ppg career avg and he shot the 3 a t a pretty good percentage.
- Of course he wasn’t terrible. But a guy like Ray Allen is much, much better and you won’t see a 90 minute documentry made about him. Even in the Sportsguy’s book he was ranked as the 62nd best player ever. The only way he gets that ranking (and isn’t considered a Rip Hamilton) is because of basically two games…cause when you try and look back there really wasn’t all that much success outside of those two games when he was the star.
I guess while I watched the documentry it made me realize that even I was overrating him…and I felt that I already had a low opinion of his value in the first place. I remember back during those playoff series and he seemed like a super star, but then you see that he wasn’t even all THAT clutch. Amazing how 15 seconds (or 15 minutes and 15 seconds…) can totally change the face of a player’s career.
March 15th, 2010 at 8:23 am
You know who I’ve always thought was pretty overrated? Scottie Pippen
- Not surprising, being that you’re someone who doesn’t value defense….I kid, I kid, I kid
I think Pippen in Houston and Portland was pretty much a very glorified Role Player. However, I have a hard time calling a guy who averaged:
22pts, 8.7rebs, 5.6ast, 2.9stl, 0.8blk on 50% shooting
21.4 pts, 8.1rebs, 5.2ast, 2.9stl, 1.1blk on 48% shooting
…during his two years without MJ overrated. I think it shows that he played with one of the best players in the game and complimented him perfectly.
March 15th, 2010 at 8:29 am
Tell me with that lineup that we don’t win at least a few championships. Us losing our team didn’t start with the Kemp/Baker trade, it started when we traded Pippen. That trade cost us a few championships.
- We ended up with GP so this is sort of moot…but looking at Pippen’s basketball reference page you can see that the trades that involved Scottie Pippen and the Sonics ended up getting the teams:
Seattle
- Polynice
- Steve Henson
- Brad Sellers
Chicago
- Pippen
- BJ Armstrong
- Jeff Sanders
New York
- Marc Jackson
- Gerald Henderson
So, Chicago got one of the best players of all time and a decent PG…and New York was able to draft a player who is in the top 10 for most assists in the history of the NBA. Not a very good trade I’d say.
March 15th, 2010 at 8:47 am
New Sonicsgate bonus features posted every Sunday. This week:
George Karl on 96 Utah Series -> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=StFLMPpu00A
and
GP on 96 Finals -> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s9ryMgGogyo
March 15th, 2010 at 11:50 am
I was always a huge NBA Live guy for the video games. In player abilities there is a category called “primacy” that basically involves how much more dominant the player gets in key situations.
Reggie Miller had Primacy to the top of his big wide ears. He was almost better with 2 hands in his face than he was with none. Just a sick player to watch.
There’s no part of the game that matters but the 4th quarter and he was awesome in the 4th. I’d say that Ray is a bit better overall but Miller was a bit better in the 4th.
March 15th, 2010 at 11:54 am
the first NBA jersey i ever owned was a John Starks jersey. true story. i hate Reggie Miller with a passion that has only been fueled by his idiotic TNT commentary.
still tho i vividly remember watching 8 points in 9 seconds live. one of the greatest individual performances in basketball history.
March 15th, 2010 at 12:57 pm
The article says that the Oklahoma state income tax is 9%. Not so! The top rate is 5.5% after deductions.
March 15th, 2010 at 1:31 pm
Reggie might have been great…who knows. But, I think the fact that those two games were in New York makes it a much bigger deal then it would if he had done it against Seattle.
The documentry sort of made me feel sorry for Patrick Ewing too…
March 15th, 2010 at 2:07 pm
Here is another great Reggie Miller postseason moment:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q7uYs843Z4c
He had so many of them it’s hard to keep track of them all. I don’t think he’s overrated.
March 15th, 2010 at 2:19 pm
As for Pippen, here’s an article Sam Smith wrote back in 2004 when Scottie retired that talks about both his importance to those Bulls teams and his limitations as a player:
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/columns/story?columnist=smith_sam&id=1895719
He makes an interesting point: neither Jordan nor Pippen ever won a title without the other—but Pippen came much closer without Jordan than Michael did without him. I wouldn’t say Pippen is overrated I either.
March 15th, 2010 at 2:20 pm
“I wouldn’t say Pippen is overrated I either.”
Make that “overrated either.” Sorry.
March 15th, 2010 at 3:41 pm
I wouldn’t call Pippen overrated. One of the best two way forwards in the modern game IMO.
March 15th, 2010 at 4:11 pm
“…during his two years without MJ overrated. I think it shows that he played with one of the best players in the game and complimented him perfectly.”
Thats part of my reasoning. I’m not saying he was a bad player by any means. He was really really good. I think he got a lot more attention because he played alongside Jordan. That was probably good for 3-4 assists a game on its own. Without Jordan would he have been top 50? I don’t know.
He wasn’t highly touted in HS. Under the radar in college. Gets to the pros and next to Jordan he is a superstar? I don’t know if that happens at all without Jordan.
When he took himself out of the game because he didn’t get the play called for him that one year. That always left a bad taste in my mouth.
Here are some other guys I think are overrated:
Chris Webber*
Jason Kidd
Dominique Wilkens
PS I’m a huge fab five fan. Huge Bulls/Jordan fan too
March 15th, 2010 at 4:12 pm
Pippen was probably the best on the ball defender at the forward position ever.
March 15th, 2010 at 4:18 pm
Webber could have been Shaq’s Pippen had he not forced the trade to Golden State. Webber could have also been great had he not had horrible knees.
Jason Kidd never made me fear him. I would have let him shoot jumpers and played off him and shaded passing lanes. Kidd could never make you pay with his jump shot. You keep him from getting with in 15 feet and you were gold.
Nique? You could throw him in the same boat as Patrick Ewing. Never got it done in the big game. Sad that a lot of people fall into this category.
Could you say that Dirk Nowitsky is overrated in that regard too?
March 15th, 2010 at 4:31 pm
Kevin, if we had kept Pippen instead of trading him our future records would have changed the rest of the lineup. The trade to get the pick to draft GP may not have happened. Detlef would have stayed in Indiana because we wouldn’t have drafted McKey to get him. Why? With Pippen we would have drafted someone else because we wouldn’t need him. “The Hawk”, nope. It would’ve been someone else. If you change one thing, every path after changes as well.
If the Seahawks kept their 1st round pick in ‘77 instead of trading it to Dallas we would’ve drafted Dorrsett. Imagine TD, Zorn & Largent!!! Instead we get 4 picks and the last pick was delt to the Niners for our 3rd pick in ‘79, which they drafted some guy named Joe Montana. My point is that changing one thing doesn’t keep everything else in place. But the thought is interesting.
If Katrina never happened the Sonics would still be here. If the Blazers had drafted Jordan the Bulls may be in St. Louis. If the Oilers hadn’t blown a 35-3 lead on the Bills the Houston Texans don’t exist and if Huard doesn’t throw a pick in ‘95 the Ducks are still looking for their 1st Rose Bowl since the depression!
Cause and Effect my friends. Affect the cause and change the effect. Point #2, WA legislature and city management caused the Sonics to leave. Let’s change THAT cause and change the effect! The Sonics will be back someday and I’m looking forward to wearing my green & gold again!
March 15th, 2010 at 5:03 pm
I miss Peter Von Reichbauer. He was the Senate majority leader in the WA state senate when Safeco and Quest were approved. He was an unabashed sports fan and like Slade Gorton before him, a pro-sports Republican. Does anybody even know who the majority leader is now? I would even support a 1% hike in the state sales tax to remodel the Key. Is that too much to ask Baker? If not, I propose to turn the Seattle Center into a Canadian goose preserve.
March 15th, 2010 at 6:51 pm
Pippen overrated? Are you kidding? He was the second best player on a team that won 6 titles in 8 years, and he was great on both ends of the floor. He was better than Dominique and C-Webb, just not in stats. He won may more than those guys. That’s what counts! I was at the draft when the Sonics picked Pippen and then traded him for Polynice. No one had any idea who Pippen was at #5 . We knew Olden from Virginia at #8. Then we got Derrick McKey at #9. We passed on Kevin Johnson and Horace Grant. McKey had a decent career, but he was never an all star. Pippen had some “headache” moments, but he absolutely belongs in the Hall.
March 15th, 2010 at 7:04 pm
there’s a strange thing that happens sometimes when there’s a primo star and a secondary star. . . pippen in a weird way –and unfairly, i think — gets kind of ‘blamed’ for all the winning. i mean, the bulls are sort of remembered as ‘jordan’s team,’ and he gets the credit for their amazing run (which is fair), but then there’s some sort of assumption that pippen was drafting in his wake, or just along for the ride. . . but those were great teams w/plenty of talent, and pippen was clearly a hall-of-fame caliber player. a true star in his own right who just happened to play alongside a supernova.
pippen to me is a hall of famer, not even a nanosecond of hesitation.
gawd, this conversation makes me wish we had sonics2 already. . . i reeeeeallly like pro basketball. not having the team SUCKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
March 15th, 2010 at 7:15 pm
That was probably good for 3-4 assists a game on its own. Without Jordan would he have been top 50? I don’t know.
- If he had averaged 21pts, 8rebs, 6asts, 3stls and 2blks for 8 years or so Im pretty sure he’d be ranked in the top 50.
- As for Reggie…I guess my problem is that all those late game heroics never really meant anything. Should they have done a whole 30 for 30 on John Paxon or on Robert Horry (waaaaay more clutch than Reggie in my opinion)…
March 15th, 2010 at 8:36 pm
Nique? You could throw him in the same boat as Patrick Ewing. Never got it done in the big game. Sad that a lot of people fall into this category.
Put a player as good as Scottie Pippen next to them in their prime and see how they do.
Kevin Willis & John Starks? Uh, not quite the same.
March 15th, 2010 at 8:45 pm
If you change one thing, every path after changes as well.
So if George Karl was allowed to trade Kemp for Pippen, maybe Ackerly doesn’t get worn out from Kemp eventually begging out of town and the boozing Baker fiasco, and decides to keep the team instead of selling to the over-roasted bean-counting traitor. Ah, what if…
March 15th, 2010 at 9:53 pm
a couple more brand new Bonus Features!!
–> GP on getting drafted by the Seattle: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2PpLpx1HJPI
–> George Karl on the ‘94 Playoff loss to Denver: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHoAOWb1p4E
March 15th, 2010 at 10:04 pm
Don’t get me wrong. Pippen was really really good. No question he is a HOFer. Great defender. I have just always for some reason felt he wouldn’t have been as good without Jordan. Probably not fair to hit him with that. If we don’t trade Polynice does he become one of the 50 best as a Sonic? I don’t know if he does. We can only speculate. Ultimately I guess I just wasn’t a fan of his.
He wasn’t a big time player in HS or college. Plays his way into the lottery at Portsmouth. Then playing with Jordan all of a sudden he develops into one of the greatest players of all time? It just seems a little suspect. I wish there were other seasons besides his aging stints with Portland and Houston to compare. But there aren’t.
I liked Nique alot too. But when I think back to his game…….all he did was score. Completely one dimensional. I thought his jumper was broke too. He was kind of like a more explosive Rashard Lewis in a way. But he always got hype because he was a good dunker and was Reeboks poster boy.
March 16th, 2010 at 5:10 am
menace, those are fair points. in re dominique, i often think he was sort of a today-type player in an era that still cared more about winning than showbiz. . . if ‘nique was playing for nightly espn highlights, he’d have been huge.
but i think winning trumps hijinx.
March 16th, 2010 at 10:17 am
Thought you guys might like seeing this:
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/news/story?id=4997277
March 16th, 2010 at 10:19 am
I tend to agree with you on Nique. Don’t forget he actually got more publicity then normal since he was on TBS all the time.
March 16th, 2010 at 11:09 am
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/news/story?id=4997277
Thanks for the George Karl link.
Karl with cancer, Bob Blackburn dead, Sonics gone never to return (whatever team Seattle eventually gets won’t be the same). Crud.
March 16th, 2010 at 4:19 pm
Tapp to Philly for Chris Clemons and a 4th? Is Wally Walker secretly running the Hawks?
March 16th, 2010 at 4:27 pm
I don’t think Dominique was overrated at all, if fact I’d lean the other way - beyond the dunk contest I don’t remember him getting that much hype.
His teams never made it over the hump, but he didn’t play with a ton of talent either. Only 4 guys made the all-star game with him during his ATL run - Kevin Willis, Doc Rivers, Moses Malone, and Mookie Blaylock (all only one time). Solid talent, but are those guys supposed to compete with Bird’s Celtics, the bad boy Pistons, or Jordan’s Bulls? Not a bonafied #2 in that group (Malone was way past his prime)
March 16th, 2010 at 4:43 pm
“So if George Karl was allowed to trade Kemp for Pippen, maybe Ackerly doesn’t get worn out from Kemp eventually begging out of town and the boozing Baker fiasco, and decides to keep the team instead of selling to the over-roasted bean-counting traitor. Ah, what if…”
Is that why Ackerley sold the team?
March 16th, 2010 at 4:49 pm
Dominique’s shining moment was Game 7 of the 1988 Eastern semifinals at Boston Garden, when he went toe-to-toe with Bird throughout the 4th quarter and came up just short. He played on some pretty good teams, but I don’t think any of them ever made it past the second round of the playoffs.
March 16th, 2010 at 8:00 pm
I know exactly what Coach Karl is going through right now. Three years ago tomorrow I found out that I had liver cancer and I began a very hard six months of radiation and chemo. My prayers are with Coach Karl and hope he can recover soon and help the Nuggets to a title.
March 17th, 2010 at 12:45 am
I think we can all see from the Sonicsgate extra clip that George Karl didn’t think very much of Kemp’s work habits. Had he been allowed to pull the trigger on the Kemp/Pippen trade as interim GM as he would have liked we probably would not be tearing our hair out right now. What kills me is not that we passed on Pippen in the draft; he was an untested NAIA player from a tiny school who had a good workout at some pre-draft camp, but that when we miraculously got a second chance we blew that too because of a few screamers on some talk shows (another point in the argument that Seattle is bush league). In hindsight, Wally did coach Karl a HUGE favor by not renewing his contract.
March 17th, 2010 at 6:23 am
Looks like Michael Jordan will pay $25 million less for the Bobcats than the original orwners.
The depreciated values of sports teams may be good or bad news for us in Seattle.
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/17/sports/17teams.html
March 17th, 2010 at 10:15 am
So if we can’t taxpayers to pay for our staidums, we can’t get billionaires to pay for our stadiums, and we can’t get athletes to pay for our stadiums… what other options do we even have left?
March 17th, 2010 at 10:29 am
The state of Michigan is in big trouble!!! How awesome would it be to get the pistons in Seattle?? I’m sure David would do what ever it takes to not let that happen but in the end money talks. How about all the banners from the pistons in the rafters of a new Key??? A man can dream I just wonder if Steve Balmer has the same dreams as I do .
March 17th, 2010 at 11:45 am
Isn’t Ballmer for Michigan?
March 17th, 2010 at 11:49 am
“So if we can’t taxpayers to pay for our staidums, we can’t get billionaires to pay for our stadiums, and we can’t get athletes to pay for our stadiums… what other options do we even have left?”
Santa Claus?
There is always Powerball and Mega Millions!!!!!
March 17th, 2010 at 12:03 pm
Pistons have the Palace in Auburn Hills, a suburban mega-arena that makes Stern’s sack tingle. They are not in play despite Detroit’s economic woes IMO.
Grizz or Hornets.
March 17th, 2010 at 3:11 pm
Ballmer math: Griz = Sonics 2.0. Make it so!
March 17th, 2010 at 3:22 pm
Meh…I’d feel pretty slimy rooting for the Pistons…
March 17th, 2010 at 4:13 pm
Ballmer was born and raised in Detroit, MI. No way he would move them here……..or would he?
March 17th, 2010 at 4:19 pm
Hawks could also be for sale…
http://www.realgm.com/src_wiretap_archives/65415/20100317/report_hawks_may_be_for_sale/
March 17th, 2010 at 4:39 pm
I really can’t get excited about us stealing any city’s team (and unless we get an arena plan approved it’s a moot point), but I would be especially ashamed if we took advantage of Detroit’s desperate situation and filched the Pistons. The same goes, to a lesser extent, for New Orleans and the Hornets.
March 17th, 2010 at 5:37 pm
A new Public Facilities District is about to be created in King County by the Legislature.
http://manywordsforrain.blogspot.com/2010/03/convention-center-inches-closer-in.html
A PFD has been a major missing part of getting anything done, private or public.
get a stand alone Tax Athletes bill next session that feeds funds to the pfd and you could darn near anything.
March 17th, 2010 at 7:08 pm
Marquette Worst Case: Williams, excitable to the point of instability on the sidelines, does a headfirst Pete Rose slide and worm dance at midcourt after Hayward hits the go-ahead basket in the final seconds against Washington in the first round. Only problem: Time remains on the clock, and Williams is T’d up. The Huskies make the free throws and win the game, and Williams goes off on radio analyst Jim McIlvaine postgame. (Which he did after a Marquette win earlier this season, although he later apologized.) Wisconsin advances to the Sweet Sixteen.
March 18th, 2010 at 6:58 am
I’m sick and tired of all the people on here that would be sad about taking another city’s team. If we have a chance to steal a team like mine was stolen so be it. And if its a team with some history and some banners to hang even better, my Sonics banners are gone F stern I say what ever it takes and if I’m balmer I take what ever team I want even the pistons screw them all
March 18th, 2010 at 7:04 am
Myk grow a sack stop acting like a little girl. Are you telling me you would not watch a new Sonics team if its not the grizzly we get?
March 18th, 2010 at 9:22 am
I’m a fan of basketball, period. And to some extent my interest in the NBA has actually improved since the Sonics left. Hear me out, hear me out. When I go to Yahoo sports now, I actually read all the news and rumors and blogs and don’t just peruse for Sonics info. I don’t have “my team” so I pay attention to them all.
That being said, I will root for whatever team comes here. Yes, I will root for the Seattle Grizzlies or Seattle Pistons (although I’d hate for us to pull a Utah Jazz or LA Lakers and have a team name that makes 0 sense) if we can’t get the naming rights back from OKC.
Just give me Seattle basketball.
March 18th, 2010 at 9:50 am
If we were to get a team like the Pistons, I wouldn’t want their banners and retired jerseys. I hate seeing websites talking Thunder history and naming names like Spencer Haywood and Lenny Wilkins. Those guys weren’t Thunders (Thunder? Thundi?) The Thunder didn’t win a championship in 1979. I wouldn’t want us claiming the Pistons championships as Seattle championships. That never happened.
March 18th, 2010 at 10:30 am
Seattle center dying a slow death. Nothing new. Chihuly museum privately funded? No mention at all about the Key
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2011372946_seattlecenter18m.html
March 18th, 2010 at 10:46 am
Saw that Menace and am starting a new thread.
March 18th, 2010 at 4:54 pm
Myk grow a sack stop acting like a little girl. Are you telling me you would not watch a new Sonics team if its not the grizzly we get?
- That is ABSOLUTELY POSITIVIELY what I am saying…oh wait…is this not blow things out of proporition day? Couldn’t tell based on your stupid comment.