Welcome Back Earl!
Posted on Thursday, February 23rd, 2006 at 12:10 pm by theSonicsMan
The Team has now made this report official with a press release just arriving. Also confirmed is that the pick is a 2008 second rounder:
“We drafted Earl in 2001 after his solid career at UCLA, and it will be great to have him back with the Sonics,” said Sonics General Manager Rick Sund. “With his talent, we’ll have a good flow at the point-guard position. We thank Reggie and Vitaly for their hard work over the past few years and wish them the best of luck in Denver and Sacramento.”
Earl Watson is a Sonic once again. ESPN reports a Three-way deal that brings Watson to Sonics. While Watson’s salary will be a source for debate, no one can deny that this upgrades our back court and gives us the solid back up PG we have desperately needed this season. I was a big fan of Earl during his short stint here, it was sad to see him leave after being left off the playoff roster by Nate MacMillan. While Watson is expensive, it is a clear signal that Seattle is willing to spend money to fill the holes in this roster.
February 23rd, 2006 at 12:19 pm
Any word on the finality of this deal? Locke’s reporting that there is something holding up the deal from being finalized and it’s not being reported on the Sonics official page yet. Also, I’m DYING to know if we unloaded Flip and for what. Anyone???
February 23rd, 2006 at 12:20 pm
I don’t think Locke was reporting anything wrong, just that logistically there are some steps than need to be gone through.
February 23rd, 2006 at 12:24 pm
From the ESPN article, which seems to have changed since the first time I read it, can’t say for sure, though.
“The Seattle SuperSonics, desperate for a defensive-minded point guard as an alternative to Luke Ridnour, will receive Watson, swingman Bryon Russell and a future second-round pick from Denver in a three-team deal. NBA front-office sources told ESPN.com that the trade has been forwarded to the league office for approval before Thursday’s 3 p.m. trading deadline.”
Sounds like it’s just awaiting league approval.
February 23rd, 2006 at 12:25 pm
And TJK, we may still unload Flip but it hardly matters if Watson is on the roster. Flip’s minutes in general will be close to nothing and he minutes at PG are gone entirely.
February 23rd, 2006 at 12:50 pm
Russell’s 3 minutes of play this year came last week so I assume he is healthy and just wasnt playing based on depth chart.
February 23rd, 2006 at 12:53 pm
ESPN is saying that we unloaded Reggie and Vitaly for Russell and Watson and a second rounder.
February 23rd, 2006 at 1:03 pm
I don’t get it, we gave up evans and potapenko for a great player and a pick? thats too great for the sonics! anyways, where is flip going?
February 23rd, 2006 at 1:10 pm
I don’t care what anyone says. Even with Earl’s contract, it’s still a great trade for us. We unload players we don’t want, and get one that we do want. Now to get rid of Flip and we’re set.
February 23rd, 2006 at 1:13 pm
I wouldn’t be surprised if Earl is starting by years end.
February 23rd, 2006 at 1:20 pm
“I wouldn’t be surprised if Earl is starting by years end.”
I would be.
February 23rd, 2006 at 1:20 pm
swsonicsfan-I would be very surprised if he’s starting, but I wouldn’t be surprised if he SHOULD be starting by year’s end.
February 23rd, 2006 at 1:26 pm
i agree that watson might be a better fit in the starting lineup. as good as luke is at setting up ray, the fact that neither of them play defense has hurt us all year.
i think you still start luke, with the way he’s been playing lately, but you try to have watson in there running the team when ray is also on the floor. then you can take ray and watson out and maybe put luke and damien in together.
watson and damien would be quite the defensive backcourt too though!
ah hell, any combo that doesn’t include flip just sounds so good right now!
February 23rd, 2006 at 1:27 pm
More news: According to Locke, Flip is gone. He’s moving to Cleveland. I didn’t hear what we are getting back. A pick? I don’t know.
Also, apparently someone from Sacramento is coming up to the Sonics too as part of the Denver deal, but I didn’t catch his name. Mike Wilks?
February 23rd, 2006 at 1:31 pm
Mike Wilks for Flip
February 23rd, 2006 at 1:32 pm
Ahh, that makes more sense. Thanks.
February 23rd, 2006 at 1:34 pm
OH THANK GOD FLIP IS GONE…
Mike Wilks … he’s decent.. but I will settle with a bag of chips for Flip.
February 23rd, 2006 at 1:35 pm
They really need to add something to the CBA that allows you to trade a player for a bag of chips.
February 23rd, 2006 at 1:37 pm
Wilks huh? Well, not anything to write home about, but we do clear Flip off the bench. I can’t help but be a little bit didsappointed that we weren’t able to get a little more than that, but Flip’s value couldn’t have been that high. Perhaps I’m being hasty…anyone know anything about him?
February 23rd, 2006 at 1:38 pm
Finally Flip is outta here. You can say all you want about how much Earl makes, but having less “fumbled balls into the big men down the lane” and better defense is priceless.
February 23rd, 2006 at 1:39 pm
http://www.nba.com/playerfile/mike_wilks/
February 23rd, 2006 at 1:42 pm
Why do people just dismiss the fact that the money we will be spending on Earl could have been used elsewhere? Everyone acts like it is a great trade because we are trading other players we didnt want. Those players would have turned into $$$ when their contracts expired that we could have used to sign a better player, insteada it was turned into an overpriced mediocre PG that couldn’t break the starting lineup of any of the teams he has been on.
February 23rd, 2006 at 1:45 pm
So now that Luke is going to want Earl Watson money at the end of the year, what we do as a franchise? This trade has seriously accelerated the decision process for him…
February 23rd, 2006 at 1:49 pm
“I wouldn’t be surprised if Earl is starting by years end. ”
He is getting starters money. Maybe he should start. If we make this move saying that Rid doesn’t have a future here…..thats fine with me. But I like Ridnour……and I hope we keep him around. That is why this move is crap in my opinion. This move may help us…..but for the money, and with Shultz saying how cash strapped we are……this doesn’t make any sense.
We cut Mateen Cleaves making the minimum…….and then go out and commit Chauncey Billups types dollars to Earl Watson for the next 4 years? They must really like him. He better do better than 9 ppg and 4 assists to earn that money.
February 23rd, 2006 at 1:50 pm
Thank you Sonics.
Earl Watson is now our best point guard. I love it!
Go Sonics!!!!!!!!!!!!
PS: No more Flip = one happy Sonics fan.
February 23rd, 2006 at 1:51 pm
“Why do people just dismiss the fact that the money we will be spending on Earl could have been used elsewhere?”
You could be right. Watson could end up playing mediocre ball for us, and we could lose Rashard. Then again you could be wrong, and that is where I would put my money at the moment. Who knows what moves the offseason brings after all. I think most people are excited about Watson as a player, even though some of us have reservations about his contract. Time will tell if your objection is right or wrong. In the meantime, we should win more games because of the player we got and what he brings to the table.
February 23rd, 2006 at 1:51 pm
Luke deserver Earl money, that’s the league average. The key with players who make that type of money is they need to play. You run into problems when you have six million not cracking the rotation like Fortson is for us rigth now. Or like Calvin was, always being hurt. There is no question that these guys are going to play for us so the deals are justified. We can’t afford to play guys that may not play or fit like some teams can, but we can afford to pay guys that we know fit. I have little doubt that if AD was younger, he would have been retained.
February 23rd, 2006 at 1:53 pm
Myk,
Earl’s contract may hamper us down the road, but we won’t know that it will or won’t until after next season. Give this some time before you declare it a terrible trade.
Another thing to keep in mind is a lot of teams have big dollars locked up in 5’s, while we have two good, cheap centers for 3 more years.
Getting Watson also allows us to go into the draft and FA 2 deep at every position, assuming Gelabale comes next year.
Assuming:
1 Luke, Earl
2 Ray, Wilkins
3 Rashard, Gelabale
4 Wilcox, Nick
5 Swift, Petro
We would be able to draft BPA in the 1st and 2nd rounds, and use free agency for vet depth.
February 23rd, 2006 at 1:53 pm
ok then, tell me how are we going to find a better back-up point guard with the money that is being spent on Watson….
I don’t see any potential back-up pgs available that are better than Watson.
Its not like we grossly overpaid someone we don’t need. Watson will have a permanent spot in this rotation.
February 23rd, 2006 at 1:54 pm
Myk,
Don’t trip, you should be happy. Watson will be the starter soon. His contract is small for a starter. Besides, we need $ to sign a good PG. Now we have one. By making this move management has very clearly stated that Luke is now on his way out. I love it!
February 23rd, 2006 at 1:55 pm
HomerSonic,
Well a cynic would say based on your post, do we even want to win more games at this point? Sure it would be nice to see a competitive team but isn’t the worse case scenario for this year that we end up going on a little streak and get stuck with a number 11 or 12 pick?
I have never been one for throwing a season when your team is struggling in November or December but we are almost to March…all winning does now is hurt your future.
This is what i meant when I said it was a great pick if we needed that one player to get over the hump…but we need much more than that.
February 23rd, 2006 at 1:57 pm
myk,
BTW, the cap is at around 50 mil. Watson makes 5. This means his contract is taking up 1/10th of our cap space. Backup or not I think he is worth it.
February 23rd, 2006 at 1:58 pm
Earl couldn’t break the starting lineup for the teams he was on, huh? Well, with Payton and Barry in Seattle, Jason Williams as the incumbent in Seattle, and Andre Miller in Denver, it would be difficult to say that he should have broken into the starting lineup. He’s done quite well as a starter when he’s had the chance, though his numbers fell off as a starter at the two with Denver recently.
Anyway, I guess I’m back to Sonicscentral with EJ going back to Seattle. Earl isn’t a great point guard, but he’s very good and very devoted to defense, which appears to be something that the Sonics need at this point. His assist numbers have been down this year because he hasn’t been playing the point, but he’s quite capable of delivering the ball to players where they like to get the ball, once he gets used to his teammates. Of course, since he hasn’t played with the majority of these guys before, it may take some time for him to mesh with his teammates.
As for Russell, he’s been recuperating from surgery all year, so the three minutes that he just played were because he was finally healthy enough to put in some minutes.
February 23rd, 2006 at 1:59 pm
EJ,
- Surely you don’t think that Watson is a good starting PG in the league? Regardless of what you think of Luke we all better hope that Earl does not end up being our long term starter…
- Secondly, I don’t believe the Sonics will give up on Luke they are too invested at this point. The funny thing is I agree with them that they should keep him around, I just think he has the potential to be above average. However, now that you threw so much money into Earl you have greater risk in giving Luke the next contract. So now they are damned if they do damned if they dont.
- Finally, if we really needed a back up PG and Luke was not going to be the future then your back up PG would’ve come through the draft with your Lotto pick.
February 23rd, 2006 at 2:01 pm
Luke has such a bright future in this league… I don’t worry about him at all. He’ll be the starter, he’ll get better every year and probably make some all-star teams before his career is done, if he stays healthy.
February 23rd, 2006 at 2:04 pm
SonicsMan,
- That is my point I agree with you on Luke (maybe not an All-Star) but now I just don’t see how the Sonics are going to resign him. Do you really give him based potential a 6 year 42 million contract that I am sure he would want now AFTER the trade?
February 23rd, 2006 at 2:05 pm
EJ,
I know you know the cap a bit better than me, but although it is only one tenth of the cap right now the cap typically only increases slightly each year and Earl will be getting the full 7% raises or whatever so each year he will count for more and more towards your cap…
February 23rd, 2006 at 2:10 pm
Myk-
Regardless, you are tripping about something the Sonics won’t even have to think about dealing with for two years. Nobody really cares what type of contract Luke is going to ask for in 2007 because it’s impossible to speculate what his value then will be today. And I highly doubt the Sonics would have any trouble trading Earl Watson’s contract if it came to that. Earl’s a decent backup making league average money. Teams are always looking for PG help at the deadline …. I really think you are overreacting here. Who else did you want to see the Sonics trade for? They obviously needed PG help, Watson fits.
February 23rd, 2006 at 2:11 pm
If anything, having a serviceable PG will lower Luke’s salary, its supply and demand…
Now we have some leverage on Luke… He could have been like, “Hey I’m the only PG you have, so if you want me to return then I’m going to get paid” (marginal value - Econ 101) but now if Watson plays up to 30 min a game and 20 of them backing up Luke (so that Luke only plays 28 min a game) then he will not get paid as much…
This is a great trade. It fills our gaping hole at the PG spot and on D. The only team the Sonics have beaten this month may have been the Hawks, but I would say that this month has already been a great success!
The three players that were the most detrimental to the team (Flip, Vitaly, and Vlad) and the black hole in the post (even though I love Reggie and his tenacity) are all gone! We got a good back up PG (Earl), good back up PF/C (Wilcox), some veteran defensive leadership/money off the books (Russell), a 3rd string PG/money off the books (Wilks), and a second rounder! Not to mention all that addition by subtraction!
This is the best day the season for me so far… I have hope! With our 20 year old seven footers, a couple of all-stars, a solidified roster and a great draft pick, we might compete the next couple years and even contend after that! The front office usually pisses me off but today they made me proud to be a Sonics Fan!!!!!!!!
Happy trails to the former Sonics and I will miss them (well not Flip or Vitaly), but I do hope they all are happy with they’re new teams.
YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
p.s. Myk look at the big picture we are better off now then we were 10 days ago… thats a good trading season!
February 23rd, 2006 at 2:13 pm
The only way to justify the cash is to let Watson have a run at Luke’s starting spot. Luke can use some competition if he wants to earn a big deal himself. May the better 1 win & I’m sure management will find a way to lo-ball Luke when the time comes.
February 23rd, 2006 at 2:17 pm
And Brian, Steve and all you guys, this website is getting more popular every day great work!
February 23rd, 2006 at 2:19 pm
“A three-team trade involving the Sonics still has not been approved by the NBA as the noon PST deadline passed. The deal has changed “immensely,” according to NBA sources, and could involve more players and more teams. ”
12;56 PST Seattle Times
???
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/sonics/2002824322_websonitrade23.html
February 23rd, 2006 at 2:21 pm
First and foremost, Luke Ridnour’s (Net Efficiency Rating: -3.6, On-Court/Off-Court +/-: -0.6, & Roland Rating: -2.7) inability to play defense and Earl Watson’s contract (five-years, $29 million) means that Watson (Net Efficiency Rating: -2.5, On-Court/Off-Court +/-: +6.1, & Roland Rating: 0) should be starting at point guard and playing 32 minutes per night, while Ridnour comes off of the bench as a change-of-pace reserve at point guard. Ridnour, unfortunately, is closer to Dan Dickau than he is Kirk Hinrich — much less Steve Nash — so he isn’t going to be the great player that some of you expected of him.
Next, there is no reason for Danny Fortson to still be on this team after the deadline. As it was, Seattle Supersonics GM Rick Sund could’ve probably packaged Fortson with Rashard Lewis, so as to obtain a young, versatilely talented small forward, a player with an expiring contract, and some draft picks. Instead, the ’sonics are on the hook for nearly $7 million in dead weight next season. Hell, I’d rather still have Calvin Booth — with his laid-back personality and diligent work ethic — on the team instead of Fortson.
All right, with all of that noted, Rashard Lewis has proven that he’s a hindrance to the team. At any rate, Lewis’ defenisve inadequacies have greatly hurt this franchise — with that being proven when the ’sonics performed better against the San Antonio Spurs during the playoffs last season without him — which can’t be argued by anyone.
Hell, without a doubt, the ’sonics would be better both on and off the court with Luol Deng as a ’sonic rather than Lewis and Fortson. Futhermore, I wouldn’t have been surprised if the Chicago Bulls would’ve been willing to trade Deng, the expiring contract of Tim Thomas, a 2006 first-round draft pick, a 2006 first-round draft pick [via the New York Knicks] to the ’sonics for Lewis and Fortson. Of course, such a trade didn’t occur at this point in time, ’cause Sund don’t seem to value defense.
Lastly, I hate Ronald Murray’s game as much as anyone; yet, Sund would’ve been better off keeping him as an 8 minute per night backup at shooting guard for the remainder of the season than dumping his ass for garbage such as Mike Wilks (Net Efficiency Rating: -18.4, On-Court/Off-Court +/-: -11.4, & Roland Rating: -16.4), who is one of the worst players in the NBA.
In the end, ultimately, Sund has always failed as a front office personnel employee for an NBA franchise — with Sund’s resume being one of the most putrid of all-time, as he ruined both the Dallas Mavericks and Detroit Pistons prior to being fired from those respective gigs — so his current ineptitude doesn’t surprise me.
February 23rd, 2006 at 2:28 pm
This is a nice trade. The Sonics added a piece to the puzzle. A defensive minded backup point guard was a definite need, although I can make a pretty convincing argument that Watson should be starting with Allen and Lewis playing matador defense.
The Wilcox trade was also a nice move as we added another piece: an athletic power forward who can rebound and score down low.
The Sonics have potentially addressed the glaring holes at point guard, power forward and center: only time will tell. Having these pieces also gives the Sonics some flexibility this offseason if they want to make a blockbuster move trading Allen or Lewis. If Wilcox and Watson play as well as I expect them to and fill the roles they should, there could be some possibility to bring in a true impact superstar via trade this summer.
February 23rd, 2006 at 2:32 pm
BOTH DEALS DONE
The Sonics completed two deals today; the first was a 4 team 9 player deal in which the Sonics received Earl Watson, Bryon Russell and a 2nd round pick. Denver received Ruben Patterson, Charles Smith and Reggie Evans, Porland recieved Voshon Lenard and Brian Skinner and the Kings get Vitaly Potpenko and Sergei Monia.
The Second deal has Flip Murray going to Cleveland for Mike Wilks.
http://lockedonsports.blogspot.com/
February 23rd, 2006 at 2:36 pm
Wait until you guys see Wilks play, you’ll be calling Flip offering to pay his plane ticket back to Seattle. I know people didn’t like Flip, but you’re gonna HATE this clown.
February 23rd, 2006 at 2:38 pm
What kind of message does this send to our players?
Shultz keeps saying how cash strapped we are. Then he goes out and commits money like this to a mediocre career backup PG. For the money we will be spending…..we might as well have kept Antonio Daniels!!!
The backup PG position is usually paid around $2-3 million a year.
Watson:
$5 million 05/06
$5.4 06/07
$5.8 07/08
$6.2 08/09
$6.6 09/10
Career averages 6 ppg 3.6 apg 1.9 rpg
His best year: 7.7 ppg 4.5 apg 2 rpg
“Now we have some leverage on Luke… He could have been like, “Hey I’m the only PG you have, so if you want me to return then I’m going to get paid” (marginal value - Econ 101) but now if Watson plays up to 30 min a game and 20 of them backing up Luke (so that Luke only plays 28 min a game) then he will not get paid as much… ”
Luke averages 11.7 ppg 6.8 apg 3.1 rpg
If anything this gives Ridnour the leverage. If you are paying Watson 5 million a year……then a Luke Ridnour can ask for at least $6-7 mill IMO.
Are we saying that Luke is done here, because in 07/08 we aren’t going to commit $13-14 million to our PG and backup PG.
February 23rd, 2006 at 2:44 pm
There is no perfect trade… but on this one you gotta look at what we know… We don’t know how well Earl will do here… maybe he’ll justify that 5 mil contract.. maybe not, but reggie and vitaly weren’t justifing their contract… thats for sure! so maybe we didnt gain any ground money wise but team wise we filled our two biggest holes for pretty much nothing and got a draft pick!!!!
how is this bad?
February 23rd, 2006 at 2:45 pm
Myk,
You are a basketball Genius. A God, a man without Equal.
Tell him who I am SonicEj.
-Biggie
February 23rd, 2006 at 2:46 pm
“Wait until you guys see Wilks play, you’ll be calling Flip offering to pay his plane ticket back to Seattle. I know people didn’t like Flip, but you’re gonna HATE this clown.”
Mike Wilks has been a joke in Atlanta, Minnesota, Houston, San Antonio, and Cleveland. Hell, the Cavaliers didn’t even throw in the obligatory second-round draft pick!
As it was, though, the ’sonics should’ve obtained Aleksander Pavlovic along with the worthless Wilks, while Rick Brunson went to Cleveland along with Murray, so as to match the salaries.
February 23rd, 2006 at 2:48 pm
Steve,
- I would have rather the Sonics didn’t trade for anyone, it just wasn’t necessary at this junction of the season.
- What are you talking about Luke in 2007? He is a RFA this year, Im sure there is at least one team willing to give him the exception (he is just as good and younger than Watson), now the Sonics have to decide if this is the duo they want for the next 6 years
February 23rd, 2006 at 2:51 pm
Luke’s contract per Hoops Hype:
05/06-$1,638,000
06/07-$2,425,878
07/08-$3,374,396 (qualifying offer)
February 23rd, 2006 at 2:54 pm
“As it was, though, the ’sonics should’ve obtained Aleksander Pavlovic along with the worthless Wilks, while Rick Brunson went to Cleveland along with Murray, so as to match the salaries. ”
Why in their right mind would you think that Cleveland would give up their current starting 2 guard for Flip Murray? I’d really like to hear the explanation on that one.
The Sonics didn’t receive anything in return for Murray, howeve does it matter? He obviously had little value around the league……….Wilks isn’t going to much if any court time in Seattle…..and it gives Wilkins more playing time now backing up both the SG and SF positions.
Having Wilkins on the court for more minutes, especially minutes that would have gone to Murray, in and of itself makes the Sonics a better defensive team.
February 23rd, 2006 at 2:55 pm
Menace,
- Exactly my point…if Luke starts the rest of the season and plays better than Earl Watson (not a stretch whatsoever) he has all of the leverage. By out performing Earl he can now say “Ok he makes x per year and I am better than him so you need to pay me x+y”….essentially you have creating a floor for his contract when it was not necessary…
Griff
- The Sonics might be 5% better now after the trade then they were before the trade…too bad we still have about 30% to go…
BigBoi
- Is that you “Black”? Looks like Nate and his coaching skills is still lagging behind the Sonics.
AK
- I read that the owner of the Cavs loves Pavlovic, so that is probably why we wouldn’t be able to trade for him.
February 23rd, 2006 at 2:56 pm
“- What are you talking about Luke in 2007? He is a RFA this year, Im sure there is at least one team willing to give him the exception (he is just as good and younger than Watson), now the Sonics have to decide if this is the duo they want for the next 6 years ”
Luke is NOT a RFA this summer………he is signed through the 2006/2007 season. He doesn’t become a RFA until after the 2006/2007 season.
February 23rd, 2006 at 2:57 pm
Well I thought Ridnour was in his last year this year I gues they have the option next year…still think Watson is a waste of money
February 23rd, 2006 at 2:58 pm
Flip for Mike Wilks, a second round pick, and $500,000. Sounds like the pick is the best part of the deal. Aside from Flip being gone, that is.
HALLELUJAH!!! I’m dancing around my office right now.
February 23rd, 2006 at 3:00 pm
To me, the weak Murray trade is more than made up for by the strong Watson trade. Getting a defensive-minded backcourt player is certainly worth what we gave up, and his salary isn’t *that* bad.
As for another team offering Luke the midlevel exception, please let that happen–the Sonics then match it, and we save a few million a year over what he might demand on the open market…It seems far more likely that other teams will be scared off, and he’ll sign a 1 year tender deal.
February 23rd, 2006 at 3:01 pm
“Well I thought Ridnour was in his last year this year I gues they have the option next year…still think Watson is a waste of money ”
That’s half the beauty of the deal. The Sonics have the rest of this season and all next season to decide what to do with Luke and an extension.
At which point, Watson will still be very marketable around the league if we need to trade him to make room for a big contract to Luke if he shows considerably improvement in his defense , next season…….(heck we can always trade Watson to NY if we ever need to get rid of the contract). ;o)
February 23rd, 2006 at 3:03 pm
“Well I thought Ridnour was in his last year this year I gues they have the option next year…still think Watson is a waste of money ”
It’s a moot point. Seattle will definitely give him the QO and Watson will have like 1-2 years left at most. Bottom line this is a decent trade that filled a need now and next year.
February 23rd, 2006 at 3:06 pm
Getting two second rounders plus earl today is a great swap. I’m really happy with today’s events.
February 23rd, 2006 at 3:06 pm
Okay, at least there is money and a draft pick involved in the Ronald Murray trade.
February 23rd, 2006 at 3:06 pm
haha. Yeah. Isiah has already shown interest and he is not afraid to take bad contracts. The problem is he’ll be fired by then after Marbury and Francis try to choke each other during a game.
Stop saying Watson’s contract is not that bad. Its horrible.
In Watson’s final year of his contract he will make $6.6 million dollars.
Chauncey Billups will make $6.3 in the final year of his deal. Do you still think Watson is not overpaid?
February 23rd, 2006 at 3:15 pm
“Do you still think Watson is not overpaid? ”
Think of it this way, how tough is it to get rid of a $6.6 mil contract if a team has to? Doesn’t seem too tough to me.
I don’t get you guys. We needed a backup PG, we got one. Were you expecting to find another AD-style bargain in free agency this offseason? As someone has mentioned today the perfect trade isn’t out there. This one is pretty good. They filled a need by getting an experienced PG.
Think of PG as the gas that runs the engine that powers the Sonics. When you’re dangerously close to running out of gas do you really care about paying an extra 10 cents a gallon or do you keep driving hoping that you’ll run into a Costco station before you run out completely?
February 23rd, 2006 at 3:17 pm
Yes, Watson is overpaid, but not that dramatically. I said in an earlier comment that I look back at mid-level deals that are good and it is a VERY short list. The two that I come up with are Chauncy Billups and Bruce Bowen. Both those guys have one thing in common and it is that they’re capable of playing defense. Getting strong defenders is worthwhile even if you have to overpay somewhat.
I do think that Watson is overpaid. That’s a given. However he will contribute. He’s a strong player who fills a big role.
February 23rd, 2006 at 3:18 pm
I could be wrong, but don’t we now have FOUR second round picks in the upcoming draft?
Given how well the Sonics have drafted in the last few years, we can expect probably 2 Gelebale-like steals…which will make us look very smart down the road.
February 23rd, 2006 at 3:23 pm
If you’re going to compare Watson’s deal to Billups, then also compare it to Eric Snow, Jerome James, Derick Fisher, Juwan Howard, Jonathan Bender, Brian Cardinal, Etan Thomas, Alvin Williams, Jamal Crawford, Shannon Anderson, etc…
Signing any player to a long term contract is a gamble, no question about it. Although, point guards that play good D and don’t turn the ball over will always be courted in this league. Getting players such as Artest or Billups with the MLE is good management, but luck is also a big factor.
February 23rd, 2006 at 3:23 pm
I just don’t get why people love Earl Watson so much? He is mediocre!!!! Are these the same people that are in love with Nick Collison?
Watson is a good defender. Is he a great defender? Is he the best? I can’t remember his name ever being mentioned for the defensive player of the year. But people talk about him like he’s Bruce Bowen/Larry Hughes/Iverson. Last time I checked David Wesley, Andre Iguodala, and Trenton Hassell had more defensive player of the year votes than Watson.
His career steals per game average is 1.0.
* I realize that stats, accolades, and awards don’t necessarily tell the story of how good a defender/player someone is.
Is he a……
good shooter? No. career .416
Good playmaker? avg. 3.6 apg career
Good defender? Yes
Good free throw shooter? No. career .663
3 pt shooter? avg. .336 career
game changing player? No
clutch player? tbd
People rave about his defense. Is he better than Bruce Bowen? Bowen makes $3-4 million a year.
February 23rd, 2006 at 3:24 pm
“Why in their right mind would you think that Cleveland would give up their current starting 2 guard for Flip Murray? I’d really like to hear the explanation on that one.”
As much as I dislike Ronald Murray, it would figure that his supposed talents could garner a player such as Aleksander Pavlovic. Obviously, I’m totally wrong on that account. Of course, it needs to be noted that Pavlovic wouldn’t be a starter on the Cleveland Cavaliers if it weren’t for Larry Hughes’ injury problems.
February 23rd, 2006 at 3:28 pm
I guess people are going to have to agree to disagree. People who like the trade are basically saying it is ok he is overpaid and if you accept that then you are ok with the trade. Other who realize that when you have owners who won’t go into the Luxury Tax you should never waste even a dollar of your salary cap…every dollars the Sonics have is valuable and I would rather them not waste them if it isn’t nessary…There is plenty of evidence you can find decent young players at a cheaper rate than overpaying for a mediocre player…
One thing I think is funny is that on most boards I need to defend the Sonics Management team for not doing crazy things and over paying for players and now when they actually do it none of the complainers will step up.
February 23rd, 2006 at 3:30 pm
Dirk,
- Your point is an exact counter to your argument. You are basically saying you should never give the exception to someone because so very few are actually worth it…
- Watson sure didn’t seem to be courted this offseason plenty of teams needed a veteran PG and he had to go somewhere to be a third stringer.
February 23rd, 2006 at 3:35 pm
“As much as I dislike Ronald Murray, it would figure that his supposed talents could garner a player such as Aleksander Pavlovic.”
supposed talents??
dude, its not like every gm in the league stopped watching flip after he had that great run replacing allen a couple years ago. they all know that he can’t shoot, has a bball iq of 3, can’t play d, can’t play pg, turns the ball over, etc, etc…
regardless of hughes’ status, would you trade your starting 2 so that flip could take the position??
February 23rd, 2006 at 3:35 pm
“He is a RFA this year, Im sure there is at least one team willing to give him the exception (he is just as good and younger than Watson), now the Sonics have to decide if this is the duo they want for the next 6 years.”
Seldom right and wrong as always. But thanks for playing.
When oyu have the racist biggot of the world calling you a god, its a good sense you’re probably wrong.
February 23rd, 2006 at 3:40 pm
Myk,
You were comparing Earl’s contract to Billups’s deal, which obviously makes Earl “seem” overpaid. So, I was comparing Earl’s contract to Jerome James, Brian Cardinal, etc…who are on the opposite end of the MLE spectrum and don’t make Watson’s contract seem so terrible.
February 23rd, 2006 at 3:40 pm
Hey myk,
Just chill man. You are the guy that all summer wanted to tell anyone who would listen that the Sonics would be fine and you liked all the moves that they were or were not making. Well, quite frankly you have zero credibility with anyone who has encountered you before. Classic example of myk talking out of his ass:
myk says:
“- What are you talking about Luke in 2007? He is a RFA this year, I’m sure there is at least one team willing to give him the exception (he is just as good and younger than Watson), now the Sonics have to decide if this is the duo they want for the next 6 years”
dirk says:
“Luke’s contract per Hoops Hype:
05/06-$1,638,000
06/07-$2,425,878
07/08-$3,374,396 (qualifying offer)”
Do your homework myk. Lol.
myk says:
“Well I thought Ridnour was in his last year this year I guess they have the option next year…still think Watson is a waste of money”
Weak.
February 23rd, 2006 at 3:43 pm
Flip had no trade value.
February 23rd, 2006 at 3:43 pm
I never compared Billups deal to Watson that was another poster. What I have said is if you are going to spend money spend it on talent. The rest of your back up money should be spent on young players like Wilkens that do almost as much for a much cheaper rate.
Scott,
- Give me a break, other than the RFA comment I have not been wrong (or right), I have mearly stated the opinion that the Sonics are wasting their money for a player they don’t need and won’t produce what he should for the money he makes.
- Trust me “Big Boi” was not calling me a god, he probably dislikes me more than most of the people on this board…
February 23rd, 2006 at 3:45 pm
Look at what X posted on the other thread… “Final trade is Flip for Mike Wilks, a 2nd rd pick and $500,000. That’s a good trade.” We got a second rounder, too? That’s a minor miracle. Good work Sund.
February 23rd, 2006 at 3:47 pm
EJ,
- I never ever this summer said I liked the Sonics moves and that they would be fine. First off I was one of the first people to say that hiring Weiss was a mistake and in regards to the player moves I said that the Sonics did the best they couldve and I think that has been proven during the year.
- Obviously Hughes was not the answer…
- Obviously we were smart not to pay AD what he got…
- Obviously I was right in saying that Vlade shouldn’t get a long term deal…
- Obviously the Stro Smith signing by Houston didn’t hurt the Sonics…
The only deal I disagreed with that I might change my mind on from this summer is the Damien contract. I was luke warm on that but I suppose he has done enough to justify the contract.
February 23rd, 2006 at 3:48 pm
LOL. OK.
February 23rd, 2006 at 3:50 pm
EJ,
- There were transactions in place this summer that the Sonics didn’t do that they should’ve?
- This kind of proves my point in an earlier post everyone always seems to speak out against Sonics management and now when they reach to get a mediocre player people are all for it? I Just don’t get it…
February 23rd, 2006 at 3:50 pm
“The rest of your back up money should be spent on young players like Wilkens that do almost as much for a much cheaper rate.”
Yes, that’s how teams win….
“Give me a break, other than the RFA comment I have not been wrong”
See above….
February 23rd, 2006 at 3:51 pm
And you never will…
February 23rd, 2006 at 3:53 pm
I think, since the trading deadline approached, teams started watching Flip. It’s obivious this is not the same player that turned heads when he came on for Ray (injury) a couple of years ago. His game has regressed, it’s obvious. That’s why all we could get for him is Mike Wilks. And I agree with what ppl say about Wilks, he is WORTHLESS! However, Flip wore out his welcome in Seattle, they booed him when he came on the floor, there was a “Tradeflipmurray.com” website that, I’m sure, didn’t help his confidence, and bottom line, he sucks. For us, as fans, and for the fo., getting rid of him makes this such a positive, just on the chemistry aspect of this team alone.
All of you who are cryin’ about these trades, get f’en real. Bottom line: This team improved. Is it improvement enough to make the playoffs this year? No. We all know that, though. Everyone needs to forget about last year, that obviously is why ppl are getting so passionate about this conversation. If we, as fans, didn’t get a taste of what we remembered with Payton/Kemp, it wouldn’t be this big of a deal. Let’s face it, last year was an abberation (mspll?), but we’ll be back. We finally have promise in the post (Bacardi & Coke), and we’ll see where it takes us in the next year or so. I like where we’re headed. Maybe noones with me. But the days of Barry, Payton, etc. never had promise, they had a 5 seed at best. We might suck right now, but we’ll see next year, biaatches! Go SonicsQ!
February 23rd, 2006 at 3:53 pm
Scott,
- Really how do teams win? Have there been any teams who waste money on expensive players winning lately???
This deal is no better than Derek Fisher to Golden St. that sure put them over the top…
Heck if we were going to pay 5-6 million a year for a PG, wouldn’t have made sense to sign AD? At least we knew he could fit into the system..
February 23rd, 2006 at 3:54 pm
So for the people who believe that this is a good trade what are the expectations for the team the rest of the year? With Watson and Wilcox should we expect to win half of the rest of our games? 2/3rds?
February 23rd, 2006 at 3:58 pm
“You were comparing Earl’s contract to Billups’s deal, which obviously makes Earl “seem” overpaid. So, I was comparing Earl’s contract to Jerome James, Brian Cardinal, etc…who are on the opposite end of the MLE spectrum and don’t make Watson’s contract seem so terrible.”
Comparing a guard and centers salary is pointless. 7 footers get paid no matter how good they are. You know this.
I acknowlede that Billups deal is a steal. But it just shows in comparison how overpaid Earl is.
I think the players in the list below are arguably as good or better than Earl Watson is. It just shows that you can get better or equal value for less.
Here are some other salaries for other players in the last year of their deals (in millions):
* I’ve not included players on rookie deals like Wade etc.
Kevin Ollie $3.1
Mike James $3.4
Jose Calderon $2.2 (FA in 06/07)
Chris Duhon $3.2
Sarunas Jaskikevus $4.0
Maurice Williams $1.9
Brevin Knight $4.4
Carlos Arroyo $4
David Wesley $5.0
Speedy Claxton $3.6
Earl Boykins $2.9
Juan Dixon $2.9
Steve Blake $1
Sam Cassell $6.1
February 23rd, 2006 at 3:59 pm
LOL. This is great entertainment! Better than the Sups this year.
February 23rd, 2006 at 3:59 pm
Isn’t paint drying more fun than the Sups this year?
February 23rd, 2006 at 4:01 pm
No.
February 23rd, 2006 at 4:04 pm
“As much as I dislike Ronald Murray, it would figure that his supposed talents could garner a player such as Aleksander Pavlovic. Obviously, I’m totally wrong on that account. Of course, it needs to be noted that Pavlovic wouldn’t be a starter on the Cleveland Cavaliers if it weren’t for Larry Hughes’ injury problems.”
Yes, it is duly noted that Pavlovic would not be the starter if Hughes was healthy. That said, he’s supposedly a good shooter, who’s now starting for them. Flip provides them another complimentary 2 guard who can create some off the dribble.
Obviously, Flip doesn’t carry much value around the league as scouts have probably seen how bad he’s been playing for the Sonics the last 1.5 seasons. Yes, I would have liked to have gotten more for him, but really……Pavlovic is a solid contributor on the Cav’s team right now starting…….I doubt they wanted to swap him for Flip and risk starting Flip right now given his recent track record.
In the end the reality is Flips value has plummeted.
February 23rd, 2006 at 4:07 pm
A lot has happened today, and there are a lot of ways to spin these moves. Let’s take step back for a minute and break it down:
2 weeks ago, we had a fourth of our roster sulking at the end of the bench (Evans, Radman, Murray, Pot) with none of them having any hope of being integrated back into the lineup. The rift between these guys and a contributing role in the rotation had reached a point of no return. They were more than a waste of space - they were actively holding us back. I seem to remember a few months ago, the talk was that Radman, Reggie and Flip would veto any trade and that we would be stuck with a fourth of our team not only failing to contribute, but again actively dragging the rest of the team down.
Flash forward to today: We managed to unload not one, not two, but ALL of the malcontents. Were the moves perfect? No. Watson’s contract is certainly on the steep side, and Flip went on the cheap. When the dust settles, however, we will have a promising true PF, an established, capable PG, and a couple 2nd rounders to boot - all for a bunch of dead weight. Someone said it earlier - at the very lesat this is addition by subtraction. But I believe it has the potential to be much more than that. Did the new guys come with a price? Sure they did. You can’t have your cake and eat it too. I truly doubt, though, that we need to worry about any of today’s pickups turning into the next Jim McIlvane.
I know it’s a popular notion on these boards for the team to just tank the rest of the season in hopes of drawing a higher slot in the draft. The allure of having a pick in the single digits for once is enticing to me too. But let’s face it: this year’s draft is weak. The cost of tanking this year, and watching the spirit of the franchise spiral even further downward is higher than I think we all imagine. Losing becomes commonplace, then anticipated, then accepted. Not to say that a few good moves this offseason couldn’t rejuvinate spirits, but I think there’s something to be said for keeping the team’s head up by filling some glaring holes, and helping them win a few more games.
We could go round and round with questions about Luke’s future, Watson’s cost/benefit analysis, contracts, free agency, 10-day contracts and the NBDL. I guess that’s half the fun:) The fact is, NOTHING is certain in this league. Sund and his crew took what they knew about the present, factoring in future projections, and made something happen (which is more than can be said of year’s past) to address needs we have right now. I think it’s important that losing does not become too comfortable. Remember, we’re less than a year removed from being 2 wins from the Finals with a very similar team core.
How will it all work out? Who knows. No one can be sure. I for one, however, am more than satisfied with what was done to fill holes and lose headaches in the present, today.
February 23rd, 2006 at 4:15 pm
We got our fireman! We’ve been missing that since Daniels left for Washington. Need someone who can come in and hose off the hot backcourt hand on the other team.
Makings for a decent defensive unit with: Watson, Wilkins, and Collison on the floor.
February 23rd, 2006 at 4:22 pm
“th Watson and Wilcox should we expect to win half of the rest of our games? 2/3rds? ”
This year isn’t about wins and losses. It’s about getting Bacardi and Cola and Wilcox as many minutes as they can possibly handle. Personally I don’t care if they lose every game the rest of the way as long as they’re investing time in developing our young centers and playing hard every night. That’s what development’s all about.
February 23rd, 2006 at 4:23 pm
“This deal is no better than Derek Fisher to Golden St. that sure put them over the top…”
I disagree. Golden State is already paying their starting PG a Max Contract……so to follow that up by paying a 31 year old veteran backup even more than what Watson is going to be making for his “sunset years” of his career? Not the same.
“Heck if we were going to pay 5-6 million a year for a PG, wouldn’t have made sense to sign AD? At least we knew he could fit into the system..”
I like AD and he was very valuable to the squad……..and in hindsite, maybe they would……but it still is very different in that in AD you are paying that contract to a veteran backup who’s 31 years old and is slowing down…….
….in Watson you are paying that money to a 26/27 year old that is still improving and that you’ll get during his prime playing seasons.
February 23rd, 2006 at 4:30 pm
Myk,
I understand the frustration. This may not turn out to be a great deal.
But, we really don’t know how this trade will turn out. This could be one of the missing puzzle peices to get the Sonics turned around.
Maybe, he’ll play mediocre and they ultimately ended up making a poor move. We don’t know right now.
And it’s not obvious either way, Watson can play defense.
This is the worst defensive basketball team I’ve probably ever seen night in and night out.
They just made a trade for a potential star in Chris Wilcox.
Let’s give this team some time to gel and then you can go into your tirades with a little proof.
This team they have put together may be alot closer to winning then we all realize. Maybe they are worse then ever, I guess we’ll find out.
And we know how you stand on the deal.
February 23rd, 2006 at 4:34 pm
Myk, how is Wally anyways?? Does he still have an awesome view of his own colon? That’s not your job now is it?? That would mean you got a promotion. I’m just kiddin man. lol
February 23rd, 2006 at 5:03 pm
“Maybe, he’ll play mediocre and they ultimately ended up making a poor move. We don’t know right now.”
I really liked Watson’s play, both offensively and defensively, when he was here before. Not spectacular, but very fundamentally sound.
February 23rd, 2006 at 5:08 pm
I like the trades; not perfect, but better than nothing. We got some usable lumber for dead wood.
February 23rd, 2006 at 6:00 pm
I think that the last 2 players we got gives the team a much better harmony. Finally we have players who play at least equally good defense and got rid of players who are mainly offensive. With Ray Allen and Rashard Lewis already in leading roles, why would we need players who play only offense? I dont know how good we will be, but Im happy that at least now I can hope for a team that will win more than 50% of the games left of the season, and give us something to talk about in the summer
But on the other hand, I think that this will benefit most of the players not being traded. Luke will benefit mostly. Swift and Pedro will be secure in C spot now. Maybe they might not play thou in those decision Hill decides to go small. We have Damien now as a backup for Rashard and then Allen if needed, maybe 10 minutes Watson and Ridnour can play together? Well, Im not sure Nick Collison might actually benefit from this draft, but him and Wilcox will have to fight for the minutes there. Still the outlook is good…. not exactly what I felt after 30 games this season….
February 23rd, 2006 at 6:19 pm
Welcome back EJLOVER, I wondered when you’d show up again.
My take: I didn’t want earl to leave but I understood it after he was left off the roster so tony parker could go matrix on a has been with a ten day contract. Earl wanted to be here and it showed every time he stepped on the court, i’m glad he’s back.
Trading Vlad for Wilcox was an awsome move. The clippers never coached him properly, I think he could develop to the best pf since Kemp.
This year I want to develop the newbies and get everyone on the same page, and still tank enough to get a high pick. If all goes right we could be a good team next year.
February 23rd, 2006 at 6:32 pm
Hey we broke the triple digit mark on responses… What a great site….
February 23rd, 2006 at 7:03 pm
Thanks. It’s good to be back! Let me tell you, the Grizzlies boards were a joke (save for a handful of people that posted in the first year that Earl was over there) and there wasn’t much to the Denver boards. Nothing that I found came even close to what SonicsCentral was and is!! I guess I need to get used to the new layout of the site now.
February 23rd, 2006 at 8:10 pm
Its amazing how much heat Myk is catching just for being right.
The only question you need to be asking yourself is this: How does this trade get us closer to building a Championship team?
February 23rd, 2006 at 8:15 pm
“The only question you need to be asking yourself is this: How does this trade get us closer to building a Championship team?”
What’s really amazing is that you may think what we have right now could have been made into a championship team at this trading deadline.
Teams who win championships generally have solid defensive backup PG’s. We didn’t have one before and now we do….;)
February 23rd, 2006 at 8:41 pm
“The only question you need to be asking yourself is this: How does this trade get us closer to building a Championship team? ”
If you don’t know the answer to that question yourself, then you either:
1) Do not know what this teams biggest weakness is.
or
2) Do not know the player we just traded for.
February 23rd, 2006 at 8:59 pm
“1) Do not know what this teams biggest weakness is.”
He is an overpaid backup PG under a long-term contract.
There are other more important ingredients to building a championship team that the Sonics lack. Using up money on mediocre players is a good way of making that job more difficult.
“What’s really amazing is that you may think what we have right now could have been made into a championship team at this trading deadline.”
I didn’t mean THIS year. Which is exactly the point.
February 23rd, 2006 at 9:30 pm
“There are other more important ingredients to building a championship team that the Sonics lack.”
Such as?
Defense is by far the Sonics biggest weakness, in addition to no viable backup PG.
Those are both key ingredients on any championship team. The Sonics just went along ways toward improving both.
February 23rd, 2006 at 9:31 pm
“Using up money on mediocre players is a good way of making that job more difficult.”
What money? Watson’s going to cost them about 1.7 million more over the next year and a half than Potapenko would have. If you want to get rid of him at that point for an ending contract, deal him along with the second that you got from DEN for an ending deal.
Watson is the PG they wanted in the summer and he became available in a situation where they did not have to give up Wilkins. Getting the pick was a nice bonus.
February 23rd, 2006 at 10:57 pm
Here is my question. What ever happened to the Sonics staying the course…..and paying “market value”? We are overpaying for Earl Watson. This is fact. Remember the mess that we put Ray Allen through and management kept preaching the same thing “market value”. Then we make a trade that commits us until 2010 to a career backup PG.
There goes the whole “market value” excuse.
Rashard Lewis and his agent love this right now. When he opts out……Sonic management can no longer use the “market value” excuse. If I’m Rashard I definitely ask for the max now. No question. Rashard can look Sund right in the eye and say….”You are paying our backup PG 5 million a year and he has a career avg of 8 pts and 4 rpg. I score 20 a game, and I’ve been to the All Star game. I’ll take the max. Thanks.”
This says to me. Luke Ridnour is done in Seattle, and I think that is a mistake.
February 23rd, 2006 at 11:08 pm
Watson is making 5million his deal tops out 6.6 million.
He is a overpaid but not “that” overpaid. I would feel comfortable paying 3.5 million. So that is 1.5 more then we would like to be paying. Big Deal, we paid that Turkish guy that much to watch Sonics games last year.
I absolutely love the Wilcox and Watson moves.
The same people who are griping would be all over management if that hadn’t done anything.
February 23rd, 2006 at 11:23 pm
I’m ok with overpaying. But at least overpay for someone who is good and not just mediocre.
If Earl Watson is sooooooo good. Why couldn’t he beat out Andre Miller or Boykins in Denver? If his defense is so superior…..how come he couldn’t earn minutes for a defensive minded coach like George Karl? Why are they getting rid of a guy in the first year of a multiyear deal? Especially when their starting PG Andre Miller is in the last year of his contract? Probably because Earl Watson is overpaid and isn’t that good.
February 24th, 2006 at 12:25 am
Andre Miller provides decent defense from the poing guard spot. He’s big, he’s tough, and he can muscle up opponents. But he’s not your drive, pull up and swoosh the j offensive guard. And neither is Watson. That’s where Boykins comes in. He provides an offensive spark off the bench, while playing okay defense.
It’s vice-versa for us Sonics, Luke being the offense, Watson being the defense, our change of pace.
Watson wasn’t going to beat out Miller for the starting spot…Just like Boykins won’t either. Miller is a bonafide starting PG and that’s what Denver brought him in to be. He would be very pissed if he didn’t start. It’s unfair to ask why Watson didn’t beat out Miller when he really was never in the position too.
February 24th, 2006 at 12:29 am
Earl Watson is better than mediocre. I’ve never see fans freak out like this over a difference of around 2 million on a players contract. Why aren’t you guys pissed that they didn’t trade Danny Fortson and his 6-7 million left on the books for next season? I love cap space as much as the next fan but finding a player willing to come play up in the northwest for under market value is hard. Maybe Luke will give us the home town discount. Watson will only be earning around 6 mil per year as the starter by the time Luke’s contract is up. Luke may be forced to sign a similar contract if he wants to continue playing basketball in his hometown state. Another idea would be to draft a point like Daniel Gibson or that Rondo guy from KU. Then the Sonics would be free to make guys like me happy and move Luke just to move him. (Maybe in a Rashard Lewis deal in the summer. That would be great!)
February 24th, 2006 at 1:00 am
What really kills it is the years. Overpaying for 1-2 years of Watson would have been fine (provided we were trading some bad contracts away as well), but paying a backup PG $6mil in four years is really going to hurt our flexibility.
“Luke may be forced to sign a similar contract if he wants to continue playing basketball in his hometown state.”
Even under your scenario the PG platoon is making $12mil combined. Your getting above-average production for star money. Its just not smart.
February 24th, 2006 at 1:09 am
“Defense is by far the Sonics biggest weakness, in addition to no viable backup PG. ”
Right, but backup PG is 13294873249837th on the list. They need to worry about producing a championship caliber starting five before they worry about locking the bench up. Bench pieces are easy enough to come by when the time comes. The Sonics aren’t doing anything this year anyways so it made no sense to make such a big commitment to a backup PG.
February 24th, 2006 at 2:02 am
Taro,
Are you thinking before you type?
Ray Allen is the SG.
Rashard Lewis is the SF.
Luke Ridnour is the PG.
Swift or Petro is the C.
Wilcox or Collison is the PF.
There is your starting 5.
Is that good enough? We’ll all find out. Nobody really knows how good Wilcox is.
Essentially, Ridnour/Lewis/Allen led the team to a 50 win season and they haven’t regressed.
I don’t know what your plan is, but these are the Sonics. I’m not sure if this team will be good enough to upend the Spurs, but they weren’t going to find that missing peice for the starting 5 through free agency or this draft.
This team is still elite on the offensive end.
This team essentially has the starting 5 with 4 on the bench:
Collison, Watson, Wilkins, and Petro.
Personally, I think if they add another scorer/slasher to the mix through the draft, the Sonics have done a great job at peicing together a team that should win.
All you can do is pray that a couple of our bigs develop.
And a guard who can defend is actually the #1 thing this team needed, so please stop typing.
February 24th, 2006 at 2:12 am
i can’t wait for the 28th. a whole new cast to welcome
February 24th, 2006 at 4:49 am
ALL NBA PLAYERS ARE OVERPAID!!!
February 24th, 2006 at 7:37 am
“market value”?
This is a concept I’m fairly certian you don’t understand. If you did you wouldn’t have put the quotes around it.
“We are overpaying for Earl Watson. This is fact.”
The day people learn the difference between fact and opinion will be a great day.
February 24th, 2006 at 7:38 am
“No question. Rashard can look Sund right in the eye and say….”You are paying our backup PG 5 million a year and he has a career avg of 8 pts and 4 rpg. I score 20 a game, and I’ve been to the All Star game. I’ll take the max. Thanks.” ”
And if there’s no other team that can give it to him…what is market value.
God you guys are economics morons.
February 24th, 2006 at 7:40 am
“If his defense is so superior…..how come he couldn’t earn minutes for a defensive minded coach like George Karl?”
Only a moron would think George Karl is defensive minded. No true defensive minded coach would play that stupid trapping D that George has tried to implore his teams to use for 15 years. It works in the regular season if you have the right players…but in the playoffs its faulters.
February 24th, 2006 at 7:47 am
“They need to worry about producing a championship caliber starting five before they worry about locking the bench up.”
Okay, so if they made the deal for Wilcox and are developing him, drafted Swift and are developing him. Lewis and Allen I’d assume would be considered in that mix. So we’d need to deal for a PG, I think that management believes in Luke, whether you think he’s championship caliber or not is irrelivant(newsflash until Detroit won a title no one thought Billups was championship quality either).
Seattle needed to address thier biggest flaws. Which were on the defensive end of the court and particularly in the backcourt. Watson fills both these needs. The contract is what it is.
For what its worth Denver started Watson in 10 games this year and is 7-3 inthose games. In the games he has not started they’re under 500.
February 24th, 2006 at 9:09 am
“Only a moron would think George Karl is defensive minded. No true defensive minded coach would play that stupid trapping D that George has tried to implore his teams to use for 15 years. It works in the regular season if you have the right players…but in the playoffs its faulters.”
Your right. Thats why he used to give Vince Askew all those minutes. It was for his offense. So you admit that Karl uses a trapping style defense. Wouldn’t Earl have been a good player to have out on the floor with that style since he is “the best defensive pg in the NBA”. You have to figure he has the foot speed and ability to trap. Since he’s the leagues premier defender, supposedly, he has to understand the concepts right?
Can’t wait to see 8 pts and 4 assists a game a night out of the “best defensive pg in the NBA”. Let me know when the defensive player of the year award comes out. Watson is a shoe in. Maybe he can beat out David Wesley in votes this year.
If you think Watson is the best defensive PG in the L…..I’ve got a nice bridge to sell you. Its in Brooklyn……but trust me, its a steal for the price. I’ll also throw in a unicorn farm…..so start clearing out the garage.
Come up with all the excuses you want for the guy. It will never change the fact that he is an overpaid career backup pg with mediocre numbers.
February 24th, 2006 at 9:16 am
I’ll take a Jason Kidd or Dwayne Wade as the best defensive PGs in the league.
February 24th, 2006 at 9:27 am
“Wouldn’t Earl have been a good player to have out on the floor with that style since he is “the best defensive pg in the NBA”. ”
Nope, Earl’s a defender in the GP style. He’s along the lines of what Artest does on the perimeter, not the way that Kidd or Hughes plays defense. While he’d be a solid defender in Karl’s style I believe he fits in much better with what Hill trying to build.
“If you think Watson is the best defensive PG in the L…..I’ve got a nice bridge to sell you. Its in Brooklyn……but trust me, its a steal for the price. I’ll also throw in a unicorn farm…..so start clearing out the garage.”
John Hollinger seems to agree with me. While Dan Rosenbaum has Watson listed third, right ahead of Jason Kidd.
http://www.82games.com/rosenbaum3.htm
February 24th, 2006 at 10:02 am
Pretty flawed list don’t you think? I’m just not a big numbers guy either, so it just doesn’t do it for me. Plus the fact that Marcus Banks is ranked as the #2 defensive PG kind of kills the whole thing in my book. Nick Collison is the 3rd best defensive PF? hahahahaha
1. Duhon
2. Banks
3. Watson
4. Kidd
5. Snow
6. Udrih
7. Francis
8. Hart
9. Davis (Baron)
10. Claxton
Like I said…..I’ll take Kidd or Wade. 2nd team all nba defense. Would you consider Hughes a PG? I think he’s more of a combo…..but he could be up there too. The fact that this list excludes Wade, Kobe, and Larry Hughes also says a lot.
February 24th, 2006 at 10:06 am
*Dan T. Rosenbaum is an economics professor at the University of North Carolina at Greensboro. Besides this statistical work, Rosenbaum has been cited in numerous publications for his expertise on issues related to the NBA collective bargaining agreement and especially the luxury tax. He is thankful to the many remarkable individuals who have helped him tremendously in better understanding the NBA.
The key parts are “economics professor” and “thankful to the many remarkable individuals who have HELPED him tremendously in better understanding of the NBA”.
February 24th, 2006 at 10:11 am
“Right, but backup PG is 13294873249837th on the list. They need to worry about producing a championship caliber starting five before they worry about locking the bench up.”
As was already pointed out………
Three of our current starters were good enough to give the Spurs all they could handle last season in the playoffs……….and in reality Lewis missed a good chunk of that series.
So there you have your first three positions filled with two All Stars and a PG who’s putting up some very solid offensive numbers.
The team traded for a big, athletic PF……to compliment Collison.
The Team has two young 7′ centers they are working into the starting rotation.
The TEAM is working already to put a Championship caliber starting five on the floor.
February 24th, 2006 at 10:19 am
‘The key parts are “economics professor” and “thankful to the many remarkable individuals who have HELPED him tremendously in better understanding of the NBA.”’
And why is that key? This short hand you’re using in lieu of addressing his method of analysis goes by the name of ad hominem (”he’s an ECONOMICS prfoess” [rolling your eyes])–it’s a logical fallacy. Your “why didn’t Karl…?” arguments skirt the issue the same way. How ’bout reserving judgement until after you’ve WATCHED Watson and developed a critique (or been given cause to shut up about it) from on-the-court evidence. Post after post you read like someone here to bitch for bitching’s sake.
February 24th, 2006 at 10:22 am
“Nick Collison is the 3rd best defensive PF? hahahahaha”
I’d completely agree with this. He’s a great defender in terms of team defense. For as bad of a statistical year as Nick has had this year the team is a lot better with him on the court.
“Like I said…..I’ll take Kidd or Wade. 2nd team all nba defense.”
Wade’s NOT A PG. How hard is that to understand? Damon Jones started there last year, Jason Williams starts at the PG this year. Wade’s a good defender, without question. Kidd’s on the list, and put there by someone that’s done a hell of a lot more research than either of us on the subject.
“Would you consider Hughes a PG?”
Absolutely not. As a PG he was horrible.
“The fact that this list excludes Wade, Kobe, and Larry Hughes also says a lot.”
Yes, him not having three SG’s on the PG list speaks volumes. If you read the comments by position he admits there are flaws in the standard error and such.
I’d say those three might be the top 3 complete SG’s in the league as a lot of the guys he has listed for SG’s are the complementary player to a very solid offensive option for thier teams (Igoudala for Iverson et al). But my comments are based on solely on Watson’s defensive prowess. He’s added a lot more consistency to his outside shooting.
I expect he can put up close to AD numbers in roughly 25 minutes a game. I don’t worry much about his contract until I see it cost us a talent. Having the extra picks around will allow us to deal him for an ending contract if needed.
February 24th, 2006 at 10:24 am
“The key parts are “economics professor” and “thankful to the many remarkable individuals who have HELPED him tremendously in better understanding of the NBA”. ”
His NBA knowledge is stunningly better than your economics knowledge with the ‘market value’ comments you’ve been making;)
February 24th, 2006 at 10:27 am
Menace,
Is Luke your boy or what? I don’t understand why you are so frustrated with this deal. Answer me this; if Watson only made 3 mil and 4.5 by the last year of his deal, would you be happy? Is it the contract or the player you don’t like? If it is the contract then you are just over reacting. If it is the player you don’t like then you must not have caught any Earl Watson basketball since he was at UCLA. He is exactly what this team needed. Either way I would think if the answer was you don’t like both
February 24th, 2006 at 10:31 am
Sorry I had to pretend like I was working for a second. Stupid boss!
Anyway, like I was saying, if you don’t like Earl Watson the player and the contract then you are crazy and don’t want the Sonics to win.
February 24th, 2006 at 12:05 pm
“If Earl Watson is sooooooo good. Why couldn’t he beat out Andre Miller or Boykins in Denver? If his defense is so superior…..how come he couldn’t earn minutes for a defensive minded coach like George Karl? Why are they getting rid of a guy in the first year of a multiyear deal? Especially when their starting PG Andre Miller is in the last year of his contract? Probably because Earl Watson is overpaid and isn’t that good. ”
Come on. That’s ridiculous. Everyone who posts here should know better than anyone that George Karl’s rotations are hardly based on playing the best players in his starting lineup. That was just a weak post.
Remember that the FO in Denver is really screwed up right now Menace. You have Karl and Kroenke on one side and Kiki on another … if you don’t like Watson that’s fine but your rationale for why he wasn’t getting minutes in Denver is pretty far off.
February 24th, 2006 at 12:09 pm
Damn that work…..it really messes up my day too.
I wouldn’t say Luke is my boy. I’ve consistently blasted his defense in the past. But he is playing the best ball of his career right now, and I think he is a much better PG than Earl Watson is. If Earl is the guy so be it…..then we need to put him in as the starter….and do it right away. Like with Radman, we can then find out if he can be the guy at that position. I think it has to be Luke or Earl……the combo of both doesn’t won’t make sense financially after next season will it? This is especially true with Shard saying he will opt out. I guess we will have to wait and see.
Hopefully I’ll eat my words. I’ll admit when I’ve been wrong. I was completely wrong about Swift…..I’ll be the first to admit that. I’ve been right on about Rid and Collison though…..to a T.
February 24th, 2006 at 12:09 pm
Menace -
Kobe, Wade, and Hughes are not point guards. The list you put up was defensive point guards. Hughes played 2 last year for the Wiz with Arenas at the 1 like he played at Arizona. I don’t get why you’d be pissed when they don’t include 2guards on the list of best defensive points.
“I’ll take a Jason Kidd or Dwayne Wade as the best defensive PGs in the league. ” Again, Wade is NOT a point guard he played the 2 spot at Marquette with Diener running the point, and Wade continues to play the off guard spot in the NBA. Wtf??? Do you not watch this stuff?? It’s the game with the ORANGE ball w/ the black stripes on it and guys throw it into a hoop. Just a refresher course for ya, I think you may have been watching NCAAW Volleyball.
February 24th, 2006 at 12:10 pm
“Right, but backup PG is 13294873249837th on the list. They need to worry about producing a championship caliber starting five before they worry about locking the bench up. Bench pieces are easy enough to come by when the time comes. The Sonics aren’t doing anything this year anyways so it made no sense to make such a big commitment to a backup PG. ”
LOL. Ludicrous.
February 24th, 2006 at 12:13 pm
“I’ve been right on about Rid and Collison though…..to a T.”
Really??? I can’t remember seeing you write “Ridnor sucks balls and couldn’t guard my grandmother” and “Collison is undersized and is mediocre at best”. Maybe you posted this elswhere but I didn’t see it, I could be wrong and feel free to correct me if you in fact did write those things. Good talk.
February 24th, 2006 at 12:14 pm
“Kobe, Wade, and Hughes are not point guards. The list you put up was defensive point guards. Hughes played 2 last year for the Wiz with Arenas at the 1 like he played at Arizona. I don’t get why you’d be pissed when they don’t include 2guards on the list of best defensive points.”
My point is that Kobe, Wade, and Hughes are not on that list at the one or the two. IMO that invalidates the list.
February 24th, 2006 at 12:15 pm
Steve, I believe it’s spelled Ludacris. LOL
February 24th, 2006 at 12:16 pm
Menace - But that list is only talking about POINT GUARDS or didn’t you make that corellation??
February 24th, 2006 at 12:19 pm
Let’s take Karl’s coaching history with a grain of salt, he was a defensive minded coach IN SEATTLE. He had GP, you’d be a defensive minded coach too if you had GP and Hersey Hawkins. If you look how bad he was in MIL you’d change your tune. Players make the coach, exept in certain cases like last year w/ Nate.
February 24th, 2006 at 12:30 pm
The list I posted is only the PGs. If you look at the complete list:
http://www.82games.com/rosenbaum3.htm
It shows all positions. What I was saying is that I find it hard to take a list seriously that leaves off players like Wade, Kobe, and Hughes (regardless of position).
* Yes I was wrong about Wade as a PG
February 24th, 2006 at 12:52 pm
Whatever, the list you put up was point guards so that’s what I was arguing.
February 24th, 2006 at 12:57 pm
“What I was saying is that I find it hard to take a list seriously that leaves off players like Wade, Kobe, and Hughes (regardless of position).”
I think the list tends to favor good team defenders and while all three of those guys are good defenders they tend to gamble a lot and it hurts them statistically.
There’s definate flaws to the lists, Rosenbaum admits with his commentary on variation do remember that there’s a break between 11 and 49 where you don’t see who ends up where. For all you know Hughes is listed 11th on the PG list and Kobe and Wade are 11th and 12th on the SG list.
February 24th, 2006 at 1:01 pm
No worries BigBoi. If we draft JJ Reddick are we still carpooling? (j/k)
“Really??? I can’t remember seeing you write “Ridnor sucks balls and couldn’t guard my grandmother” and “Collison is undersized and is mediocre at best”. Maybe you posted this elswhere but I didn’t see it, I could be wrong and feel free to correct me if you in fact did write those things. Good talk.”
Menace Says:
February 21st, 2006 at 1:27 pm
“I just don’t get it. Why are Sonics fans in love with such a below average starting point guard? Fans say we need a back up Point, well I say we need a starting point.”
I agree. I think these are the same people that are enamored with Earl Watson and Kevin Ollie too. I like Ridnour, don’t get me wrong, but there isn’t anything special about him. His numbers aren’t bad…..but he plays for a bad team and plays a lot of minutes. His defense is horrible….bottom line. He still can’t guard his shadow, and his size is a huge liability. He is a mediocre PG who can get backed down by any other PG in the L. Look at the numbers he gives up to the opposing PGs each night.
In addition, why are people so in love with Collison? Again, he isn’t a bad player, but do people see some huge upside to his game? I don’t. He is a mediocre PF who plays below the rim. He is a good team player and is fundamentally sound, but it seems like a lot of people on this site view him as untouchable. Same goes with Luke. I just don’t get it.
February 24th, 2006 at 1:03 pm
“It shows all positions. What I was saying is that I find it hard to take a list seriously that leaves off players like Wade, Kobe, and Hughes (regardless of position).”
You mean one that leaves them off the top 10. I’d be willing to bet they are “on the list”…..just not listed in the top 10 or bottom 10 which is what I see available at that link.
February 24th, 2006 at 2:07 pm
“In addition, why are people so in love with Collison?”
http://www.82games.com/0506/05SEA10D.HTM
That’s what I like about him. When he’s on the court we’re a lot better team, even if he’s not ‘performing’.
“Again, he isn’t a bad player, but do people see some huge upside to his game?”
Upside is the most over-rated concept in sports. How many guys live up to thier supposed upside? How many never do? I like the PF combination of Wilcox and Collison, especially with Swifty in the lineup.
February 24th, 2006 at 2:43 pm
Scott lets just agree to disagree. You are a numbers guy. I’m not. +/- stats mean very little to me. I’m not saying they aren’t valuable, but we just look at the game differently.
At least we both like the PF combo. Who do you like as the starter at PF? I have a gut feeling you like Collison. I prefer Wilcox. Am I right?
February 24th, 2006 at 2:51 pm
I think you could put it to any coach in the NBA, and they would probably start Wilcox over Collison.
February 24th, 2006 at 3:08 pm
“At least we both like the PF combo. Who do you like as the starter at PF? I have a gut feeling you like Collison. I prefer Wilcox. Am I right? ”
How could you be? The guy has exactly 2 games under his belt as a Sonic. We know Swift is the starter now & in the future. Wilcox’s future as a starter rests on how well he can play alongside Robert.
February 24th, 2006 at 3:34 pm
“Wilcox’s future as a starter rests on how well he can play alongside Robert. ”
Steve -
You mean Petro, I know, it’s OK it’s an oft made mistake. You meant the one who has real talent. Don’t trip.
February 24th, 2006 at 3:36 pm
“How could you be? The guy has exactly 2 games under his belt as a Sonic. We know Swift is the starter now & in the future. Wilcox’s future as a starter rests on how well he can play alongside Robert.”
1. So we can see what we have in him. Might as well give him the minutes so we can see if he can hold down that spot. We know what Nick can do/does. Nick is consistently inconsistent.
2. It gives us two finishers (Swift/Wilcox) that can play above the rim. I think it makes us a little more dangerous, especially with Ridnour at the point (his passing).
February 24th, 2006 at 4:08 pm
Wow. You’re clever. You sure took me down a peg there.
February 24th, 2006 at 4:25 pm
Wasn’t tryin’ to “take you down a peg”. That’s a pretty gay term don’t you think? Calm down, I don’t know you and wouldn’t waste my time trying to insult you, don’t get all emotional. Why do you write like Michael Irvin talks??
February 24th, 2006 at 4:48 pm
“You are a numbers guy. I’m not. +/- stats mean very little to me. I’m not saying they aren’t valuable, but we just look at the game differently.”
I’m actually not too much of a numbers guy per se. It just seems odd to me that when people are talking about these guys they don’t look at the fact that when Nick’s in, the team performs better. I don’t look at guys athleticism because that can only take a guy so far. I know Nick’s gonna work hard, he plays smart and plays solid position defense. Put him together and let him work with Wilcox to come up with a solid PF combo.
“At least we both like the PF combo. Who do you like as the starter at PF? I have a gut feeling you like Collison. I prefer Wilcox. Am I right?”
I’m a combinations guy, I am really curious to see the Swift/Wilcox combination on the court together. I don’t have a real feel for how they’ll look together long term.
Just from what I’ve seen I think I like Wilcox and Swift together as the starters with Nick and Petro as the backups. The combo I’m not sure about is Wilcox with Swift as I don’t think either of them at this point is very sound with thier positioning on defense. So I’d try to keep those two off the court at the same time.
February 24th, 2006 at 4:50 pm
“You mean Petro, I know, it’s OK it’s an oft made mistake. You meant the one who has real talent. Don’t trip.”
Swift’s got more basketball talent than Petro. It’s really not close IMO.
No one’s gonna give him credit for it because dude looks like Napoleon Dynamite.
February 24th, 2006 at 8:54 pm
“The combo I’m not sure about is Wilcox with Swift as I don’t think either of them at this point is very sound with thier positioning on defense. So I’d try to keep those two off the court at the same time.”
Whooops, I meant Petro and Wilcox not Swift and Wilcox.
March 5th, 2006 at 11:22 am
PATIENCE IS SO TOUGH TO HAVE. SOME OF THESE PICKS WILL HELP US…ESPECIALLY WILCOX AND WATSON. BUT HOW LONG WILL WE HAVE TO WAIT TO SEE CHEMISTRY.
WE HAD A COACH–MCMILLAN…
WE HAD A DEFENSIVE POINT GUARD–DANIELS
WE HAD A CENTER–JAMES
WE HAD A SYSTEM.
WE HAD EVERYTHING EXCEPT A PROFITABLE TEAM WITH AN ACCEPTABLE LEASE ON THEIR ARENA.
NOW, WE GET TO WAIT ON THE DEVELOPMENT OF 19-YEAR-OLDS.
WHY IN THE WORLD DO COACHES TAKE THE RISK OF SACRIFICING THEIR JOBS OVER THE DEVELOPMENT OF 19-YEAR-OLD PLAYERS? I’M A DISPLACED FAN LIVING IN PORTLAND. I’VE SEEN MANAGEMENT MAKE CRAZY MOVES IN 2 CITIES…WHY ARE WE BANKING ON 2 19-YEAR-OLDS AT CENTER?
I WANT TO WATCH A TEAM PLAY DEFENSE WITH SOME HEART.
IF WE COMBINED THEIR SALARIES AND TRADED THEM AWAY COULD WE GET JAMES BACK FROM NEW YORK? PROBABLY IMPOSSIBLE.
WE STILL NEED:
* A NEW COACH*–SILAS
* A NEW/OLD SYSTEM*–SOMETHING SIMILAR TO LAST YEAR?
* AND A PROFITABLE TEAM–NEW ARENA?*
LET’S GET HER DONE!*
March 5th, 2006 at 1:34 pm
“* A NEW/OLD SYSTEM*–SOMETHING SIMILAR TO LAST YEAR?”
Gimmick defense and perimeter bombing from the outside? That’s what we need.
Why bank on 19 year old C’s? Both are better than the goofball we had last year.